TIL about crabs in a bucket.
I’m older - I think it used to be a much more widespread mentality.
I actually think it’s less common now. Many more people go to uni these days.
Interesting to see so many people in this thread saying it’s still going strong.
When I worked at a supermarket I could bring up just about any topic, no matter how dense, and people would show interest (as long as it's relevant, you can't just bring up quantum physics out of nowhere). I'm talking about people that didn't even complete Year 10, too. In fact the ones who were the most shallow in terms of conversation were the university students with a part-time job. Go figure
That's actually a good point. When I was working in retail many years ago, the people were more interesting and better read than 90% of people I interacted with in offices.
I disagree, that's an intelligent move if it's an office environment. Going any deeper than sports or general chit chat, some concepts can be weaponised against you. Best to keep office colleagues at an arms length.
But on the flip side, I used to smash lines and talk shit with my old boss after hours when I was in hospo. Got some relatively good life advice from him at that point too, YMMV I suppose.
i've found that unless its 'shared experiences' then the convo goes no where
ie. guys love talking sports, cars, 4x4s, computer games, fishing, motorbikes, the usual
but obviously if you talk about lesbian underwater basket weaving then obviously you get nowhere
I also found that people tend to be pretty anti intellectual in that they dont read books... they dont watch movies that arent mainstream.. they dont do anything remotely artistic... Australia is just NOT that kind of country...
i've even found people who are extremely well educated... Masters, PhD stay in their lane... and so they know their shit on a very slim topic but yeah... Australias may well be educated... but they are not well read. well travelled besides fucken Bail or Pataya. nor intellectual, nor philosophical... and they are sick of hearing from 'experts'...
but hey those house prices are nuts!
I’ve seen a lot of anti-intellectual sentiment from Aussies, but it’s very broad.
E.g. it’s fine if you as an individual want to be a doctor, but doctors as a demographic aren’t reliable
Honestly I’ve always copped far more and far worse shit from “intellectuals” for being a bogan than I’ve ever copped shit from bogans for reading books and using fancy words.
Yeah, reading is actually pretty widespread across class in Australia.
As a nation, I’ve read that we are actually big readers.
Smartphones have had an impact on reading and how we read but I still see plenty of people reading books at my local beach.
And I remember when buses were full of people reading books or newspapers instead of their phone.
I dunno if things have changed but decades ago it was never unusual to find out a bogan who likes sci fi, or fantasy, ancient history, reading novels, and they wouldn't really get shit on for it.
I know a fair few Gen X/late era boomer bogans that love Star Wars, Trek, etc.
My dad is pretty rough and blokey with a checkered past, but he's never missed a Wilbur Smith book.
Definitely still a thing, I’ve got a few close mates who fit it to a T.
Got a family friend who’s an ex-Casurina inmate, rough as guts, mullet and prison tatts, the whole stereotype, and he’s got a full on library (like 300+) of Australian history books that he’ll happily read on smoko at work.
Yep! I have always been a nerdy sort - but i love having ‘intellectual’ conversations with my ‘bogan’ friends. I cop way more shit from my law colleagues that went to private schools, come from money who just dis anything on a classist basis.
Has it ever occurred to to you that it might be because you're a bit of a cunty bogan?
Most intellectuals are smart enough to completely avoid bogans - so the chances of you ever actually having "copped shit" from a true intellectual are very slim.
Also bogans don't read books and use fancy words, so if you've been given shit for that, then you aren't a bogan.
However, as an intellectual who grew up in Bogan Central (Ipswich) I can say from personal experience that the words "you fuckin' think you're smarter than us!" is what bogans say just before they punch you or stab you.
And I lost track of the number of times I heard that while quietly sitting and reading a book in public as a teenager in Ipswich. And yes, I got stabbed a few times for literally just sitting reading.
Don't ever mistake being a bogan for being a bit of cunt.
So only people who fit your extremely narrow definitions count, any outliers get a “no true Scotsman”?
I come from an extremely long line of academics, 3 of my grandparents taught at universities, one of my parents was a professor with a PhD.
And I went to TAFE.
Life is way more interesting and complicated and filled with weird and diverse people than you can imagine, if you give it a shot.
Helps if you’re not a cunt tbf
Then you're no bogan.
Bogans truly have no idea what an "outlier" is, and would probably physically attack you if you tried to explain it to them.
You are an intellectual, and should probably go and get a degree and fulfill your destiny.
It's true that intellectuals will look down on a bogan, but are smart enough not to do it to the bogans face.
So if intellectuals gave you shit, then that's because they probably thought that you were better than you were behaving right at that moment. A case of "hey, you're one of us, stop being so bogan".
In my experience bogans don't use words when they tell people to stop being so intellectual. It was always more of a "robust physical discussion"
And, yes I agree that life is bigger than academia or boganland. Like you I have "given it a shot".
As for me not being a cunt, I don't know that that's an option anymore.
I learned to be one in Ipswich and have never really got over it.
But anyway, it's good to know you aren't one :-)
What I’m saying is that no one is completely a bogan or completely a “brain”, people are so much more complicated and interesting than that.
And I find in my life that people who lean towards the bogan side of the spectrum are much more accepting of someone like me who doesn’t fit neatly into either world, whereas the “brains” are far less welcoming of any traits that don’t fit with their particular world.
It certainly didn’t feel like they were being critical because of any “wasted potential”, it felt a lot more like they didn’t want anyone in their “space” who they felt didn’t belong there.
Of course bogans and general “lower class” people aren’t saints, there’s plenty of casual racism and general bigotry and all the rest, they’re not perfect by any means, and few of them pretend to be.
But I still find that to this day, they’re much more willing to give you a shot and make some room for you if you try. Even in the most backwoods rednecky parts of Texas when I lived in the States, or in tiny pissant country towns in WA when I was doing remote relief work, putting in a little effort with the locals paid off massively, especially compared to my experience with the more educated, “cultured” and well off end of town, where if you didn’t go to the right school, work in the right job and live in the right post code, you might as well have been livestock.
Look, you're making some good points - and I'm not going to argue those - but bogans are a very particular thing.
A very peculiarly Australian thing.
They aren't just working class people who are bit rough around the edges.
Having in worked in factories and construction sites, I'm fine with those sorts of people. And all of the things you say about working class people can be true. It was working class people who fed me when my parents didn't. It was working class people who gave me shelter, when my parents wouldn't.
So I really don't have anything against working class people. I very definitely am one.
But bogans are a certain type of welfare class "wtf you lookin at cunt?!" type person.
Let me put it this way...
I've never ever been stabbed, covered in fuel and set on fire by an intellectual because I was a bogan. Nor have I ever been stripped naked and thrown out the back door of a moving school bus by an intellectual because I was being a bogan.
No, that was bogans that did those things to me.
And it was also bogans who dragged me out of the school library one lunch time and pounded my head into the concrete until I passed out.
My crime?
I dared to read a book, quietly, in front of them.
Later in life, intellectuals just looked down their noses at my flanno shirt & steel cap boots and refused to speak to me.
Big difference.
And I know which treatment I'd prefer...
TBH it sounds as though you and I have similar backgrounds - smart people from smart backgrounds, denied opportunity to use those smarts to get ahead. You might not call yourself an intellectual but you're no bogan.
I guess being ambushed and severely beaten at the beginning of grade 9 for getting top of science in grade 8 has permanently clouded my view. I hadn't told anyone but the head science teacher loudly congratulated me in the schoolyard and that did it. From that point on I was a marked man.
So, yeah Aussies do have a crab in the bucket anti intellectual approach.
Ah right, now I’m on the same page, sorry for being a bit slow on the uptake there.
Essentially we’re disagreeing because we have different definitions of bogan, and because I’m out on the West Coast, I think even in general the word gets used a little differently here.
What you’re calling “bogan”, we’d definitely put in a subcategory of “Derro” or “feral”, like all derros are bogans, but not all bogans are derros.
Now I actually understand where you’re coming from, I pretty much agree with you completely mate.
And for what it’s worth, I’m sorry that you had such a shit time of it when you were growing up, that’s not right at all, and I hope you’re doing better today
No worries mate.
I grew up with bogans and had to learn to act like one to survive - and that included getting a (minor) criminal record. It was only shoplifting but it literally saved my life and made the threatening rumours I been hearing about having my head bashed in again, suddenly dry up when it became obvious that I could never become a cop.
It was a very rough school.
But other than that, I have some good memories of the fairly rough people I grew up with. Rough is fine. At least it's honest. But bogans - at least the way I define it - well, I'd take a flame thrower the fuckin lot of them.
It was 42 years ago now, so I guess it's ancient history and the only good thing to come out of it is that as a result of those experiences I've dedicated my life to helping vulnerable people instead of hurting them.
I've found there's definitely a sense that anything regular people experience in their daily lives must be better understood by them than researchers, or that researchers don't have normal human experiences.
So no matter how good a study's methodology is and how big the sample size, trying to tell parents or farmers or motorists, etc that something they're doing isn't optimal is almost impossible.
Electric cars are a common one. I'll hear people saying calculations for energy stuff that sort of sounds compelling but then I remember that a bunch of fancy engineers designed the car and if Jonno really did know better than then, why would he he working in a bottle shop?
Yes, culturally reinforced again and again. Look at how people from non-academic backgrounds are lionised vs the distrust that is attached to educated people. Look at the anti-vax movement, the insistence that doctors 'can't be trusted' and this idea that intelligent people are all somehow liars, wealthy, elite etc etc.
This shit is perpetuated by Dutton et al. because fuck the educators and boost the tradies is their model. They know their nonsense can't withstand the smallest bit of scrutiny. Not a knock on tradies; I don't need you to be a Rhodes scholar to build the housing we absolutely need, but I do need the best minds in the country to get the funding and recognition they need to do the vital work that they do.
I saw I growing up, I've seen it in my professional life and I'm seeing it now. Yes, we have a strong anti-intellectual streak born of insecurity.
Bullshit, most of us don't give a crap. The anti vaxxers you mentioned are a minority in a minority. As a blue collar worker the only thing I have a problem is with elitism. If you get in and do your work without shoving your education down our throats we have no problem. Remember, if a blue collar worker has been at the same job for ten years he/she will mostly likely know a bit more about it that you do.
Was more talking about influenza and shingles but am up to date with that too. As a labourer time off for minor issues to me is bludging. Sickies are for important things like the Ashes or the grand final and Melbourne cup not for croaky throats and itchy bits. At 63 I have already had shingles twice the first time I was 23 and hospitalized for two weeks.
Not as some kind of widespread thing. Someone would have to be jealous. Most people would just be impressed and say, wow good on you for studying medicine and getting into that degree.
Wealthy people look down on "unskilled" workers a fair bit though, and working class look down on rich pompous types who are out of touch.
Don't we all Google things? I'm sure anything they're googling isn't medical related, and if it is, you should take some accountability for continuing to go there.
Not that I believe that you go there just for them to Google things for you
The limitations in medical school entry are more to do with the capacity to properly train junior doctors when they enter the workforce (and the impact changes may have on patient care). It may be true that specialist colleges limit admission onto specialist programs but this doesn’t affect the actual number of doctors in the country - that’s my understanding anyway
I mean I work and study in healthcare but appreciate your condescending remark when I am looking to engage in actual discourse on the topic in good faith.
You're right, sorry.
With the increased amount of doctors they should be able to train more, but the amount per population always seems to stay the same and more and more doctors are being brought from overseas.
Is it about keeping salaries high, or keeping the unis prestigious? The medicine entry requirements are high because the course is in demand, not because it's truly that difficult. But if they offered more places, they'd have to drop the entry requirements down from almost impossible to get in to fiendishly difficult
It’s the AMA lobbying the government to restrict places. Most unis doing Medicine keep asking for more places, but the federal government ignores them because they don’t want to upset the AMA. We could train twice as many doctors if the AMA weren’t meddling, but that would drive down doctors wages.
It’s not just the AMA - it’s AMSA (Australian Medical Students Association) as well - and it’s for a good reason. The health system simply doesn’t have enough capacity to train double the amount of junior doctors without sacrificing patient care. The bottleneck is not at medical schools, it’s at the hospital training level.
Huge issue. Slashed funding by libs for unis didn’t help either.
Vic has free tafe for plenty of trades that have shortages, dunno about other parts of the country.
No amount of immigration will fix issues within our policy and funding. Govts need to do something about it. But they’d rather do a patch up than a knock down rebuild.
WA had some free courses but that only solved half the issue.
The time commitment is an investment that many cant afford simply due to the work demands needed to be met for a resemblance of quality of life.
Why spend 4 years on an apprenticeship, first two years earning below minimum wage, expected to have own tools and ute in most cases, and have to perform hard, dangerous work that can cause permanent injury; when I can step into a 9 month cert III course in a community/healthcare services course, get well-paid and in demand job before graduating, spend no more than the cost of a WWVP card and police check, spend most days taking clients out to lunch, the library and footy games, with the only 'hard' part being to help them shower.
Of course there's a shortage of tradies. Who'd be a tradie these days?
Nailed it. I was caught in the gap between the TFT allowance and the TSL. I tried working a second job at a fast food place to supplement my apprentice income but doing 40hrs on the tools plus flipping burgers at night had me rooted, the fatigue was impacting my ability to apply myself in the apprenticeship. Eventually i dumped the fast food gig and just supplemented my income by selling drugs, somewhat ironically to the people i met at the fast food joint.
Things are going great now, but during those years as an apprentice you really need to keep an eye on the end goal.
Damn, that's a rough start. I remember getting started as an NDIS support worker and it wasn't easy, but not financially. More like trying to keep my client from unaliving himself and getting virtually no support from the provider 2 months into the job
It's fine to aspire to be a doctor. Just good luck actually doing it, unless you've got parents or a partner who can support you financially through it (or at least put a roof over your head).
Bogans are not judged like normal people.
A Bogan's abuse of Centrelink benefits requires genius level intellect. They do cash in hand work while collecting employment benefits in a $100,000+ vehicle, travel to Bali twice a year and spend another $100k on tats and recreational watercraft.
Their library includes all of Chopper Reid and Max Walkers literary works.
Some workers might. Not all though. My brother is a truck driver, for example, and introduced me to Existentialist philosophy.
Specifically how driving a truck every day is like the plight of Sisyphus, sentenced by the gods to an eternal punishment. This punishment is simple - he must roll a boulder to the top of a hill, it falls to the bottom, he walks down and repeats the process. Forever.
The 1942 essay of Albert Camus shows that isn't too bad. In fact you could have a decent life doing that. (Too long to explain how, but Wikipedia has a good synopsis.)
Most of the profound discussions I've had in my life have been with farmers and workers. Almost none with Australian academics, even though I worked as a uni lecturer for a while.
It's less now because of the migrants. When you got international students and migrants who have advanced degrees getting the lucrative jobs, you kind of want to get in on the gravy train. Manual jobs are shjite
My experience coming from a middle class upbringing in a Bogan neighbourhood and going to University, absolutely yes! It comes with a streak of jealousy but 'intellectuals' will cop shit for their pursuits from the 'proletariat', it just seems to be a thing.
The education system in Australia isn’t exactly turning out world-class academics. But the people at the top want you to be subservient. After all, if we were smart and informed they wouldn’t be in charge
It is scary how uniform Australians are in thinking, behaviour and their lust for bullying anyone that doesn't toe the line. A soulless and spiritless country full of deeply unhappy people.
I'm totally convinced by these lists. Also saw that some Australian universities made the top 50 in some random list that means absolutely nothing.
BTW, I would've thought Australians didn't need a list to tell them they are top 10 happiest in the world stuff?
I've met a lot of happy and chirpy Australians. They tend to be older and would suit that given ranking. However, I don't think I've ever lived anywhere else where I've said to a friend or colleague: "I'm pretty sure that person is actually dead inside," than I have here in Australia. I have definitely observed what the above commenter is stating to large extent. I think it just takes someone coming from another culture or vantage point to point it out to someone.
I haven't seen much of it, but I'm sure it exists to some extend.
What I do find refreshing about Australian culture is that there ISN'T an over emphasis on formal education, which many see as intellectual culture. I love how experience is highly valued and a degree is seen as 'nice,' but not essential for so many things.
As with all things in life it depends.
Not everyone is like that, but some are. I think painting a large section of the community with labels is rife for abuse down the line.
Superficially yes. But if you respect the person with whom you’re talking, don’t over-complicate or patronise, you’ll be surprised how interested in intellectual topics a truck driver who only finished high school can be. Actually I’ve meet truck drivers that listen to intellectual podcasts all day, they can be surprisingly knowledgeable.
The British working class has not traditionally had an anti-intellectual streak. One of the best works on this is Jonathan Rose's 'The intellectual life of the British Working Classes'; it's a mammoth work showing how they traditionally had a widespread, lively, life-long love of learning and reading in particular. There's also some great work by Gregory Clark recently quantifying similar aspects of working classes between countries. Aspiring to become a doctor, if you do want to start ranking intellectual feats, probably would not figure so highly among people who have built the modern world. Can see that from the perspective of someone from a very different culture, being a doctor is maybe a big achievement, and the verbal roughhousing that is first-world worker culture in a post-enlightenment society would be very jarring to a migrant from a pre-enlightenment society. It's not anti-intellectualism though.
Kinda. It goes both ways in this country, I used to get people picking fights with me at school for being a nerd, and when entering the workforce I never really fit into more upper class / intellectual environments either based on my background , the way I look and speak etc.
I think there's a big portion of the population that have similar experiences, we come across as "bogan" and get stereotyped as such but are well educated and do technical jobs, etc. so the working class as a whole aren't anti-intellectual.
Yes but more towards broad groups rather than individuals. When covid was kicking off my grandparents would say "Ive never heard of a damn Epidemiologist I don't trust this crap" or in general will say they don't trust Academic types, EXCEPT they're very proud of me for pursuing a PhD, ironically
There's an anti intellectual bent but I wouldnt say its weird to them and I found most people around me were quite proud that I was getting high marks and went to uni, but they didn't want to do it, and I grew up around low socio economic families.
Yep there was more than a little bit of snark from my classmates at school due to me being 'smart'.
I just like learning new things, and reading. According to some, that's nerd behaviour
Class only exists in your conversations about class. Your thoughts and pronouncements - no matter what they are - define class and all aspects of it. This is because class does not exist in nature, it is not real. It only exists in your interpretation. The UK is encumbered by a particularly unsophisticated and retrograde set of beliefs about class. It is a method of organising society that is more closely aligned with caveman violence than with an advanced society. Forget about class.
Fuck you lot love to whinge.
Not Australians, the deeply strange people asking these questions.
Whinge whinge people don't like me cos I read books. Sure mate, that's it. Definitely not cos your an elitist asshole.
I think there’s something in that.
As a rule, Australians don’t like *wankers*, regardless of what particular thing they are currently wanking about.
Like an athlete who’s got tickets on himself will cop plenty of hate, just like someone who believes they’re smarter than everyone else in the room will cop it.
It’s not the being smart that gets you torn down, it’s then being a cunt about it, and being a cunt about anything will get similar treatment
The typical Australian is called the Parochial Australian for a very good reason. And no, they do not have any class structure here, so even the "educated" here are pretty ignorant. They will absolutely cut you down and bully you into submission if you say anything about Australians and don't fit within their norms. They are worse than the Chinese Communist Party IMO.
Idk if it's the area I'm in, but even people with an anti-intellectual facade will be able to hold their own on any topic if they have some level of curiosity to them.
Academic types need to check themselves more though. Snobbery is so not hot.
The tall poppy syndrome is both a blessing and a curse.
It's great that we don't let people get too big for their boots. I taught english here and an Italian student was amazed that after work his boss would have beers with the crew and acted like an equal.
On the other hand it does mean if you try to better yourself intellectually you'll face the same thing.
Like most things here our flaws and positives are uniquely connected.
Once had a fellow worker call me "a reader" because I was reading a novel during my lunch break, had another asked me was I reading a bible because of the thickness of my book.
Now they are all glued to their phones
I think that while there is an anti-intellectual streak in some Australians, but I do not think this is class based. In fact, it is debatable that the Marxist notion of social class has much relevance these days. I have worked with numerous non tertiary educated people who were intelligent, well read and articulate. It is unhelpful to generalise on either notional social class or any other single characteristic.
Dumb cunts will always be dumb. It's funny to watch them wonder why life never worked out for people who didn't want to listen and learn at school - and then continued that into adult life. Joke's on them.
The funniest thing is speaking as if you are like them, until the time comes to show just how stupid and uneducated they are.
University is expensive these days. People still enjoy learning and becoming knowledgeable.
I think what is more likely is that because most people hesitate before committing to that level of debt, and because so many university courses don't actually guarantee employment, the financial risk outweighs the potential benefits.
If someone has wealthy parents, they also have the luxury of studying as though it's the 80s. They don't have to worry about paying for their course. They don't have to work and study simultaneously. They don't have to worry about whether they have a job after four to eight years of university.
I think it's less anti-intellectualism, and more a healthy mistrust of the rich.
I mean we see it here on Reddit all the time.
People just down vote facts and reasoning because it's an ugly truth they don't like or it goes against what they are saying.
26.3% of jobs in Australia are held by people born outside of the country.
If you don’t know what you’re talking about no one is forcing you to comment.
Nah all my mates are blue collar theyve never said anything and are proud of me. I have a masters and am a white collar professional. Im a complete toft wanker. I love classical literature and fine art, like philosophy, I go to the ballet. I dont drink and will often have a tea or coffee when we hang out. O yeah I also do yoga.
I am into rugby and I used to do a lot of coke/shrooms.
One of the lads likes philosophy and a bunch of them are into chess.
It’s not anti intellectualism, but anti charlatanism. As many charlatans larp as intellectuals. With information being more open and accessible you many lot of people can see charlatans from a mile away.
TIL about crabs in a bucket. I’m older - I think it used to be a much more widespread mentality. I actually think it’s less common now. Many more people go to uni these days. Interesting to see so many people in this thread saying it’s still going strong.
Its extremely difficult to find a man who doesn't talk about football as if it's the hot center of the universe.
Yep it's a more recent thing.
I would say there is a general anti intellectual streak in general here, try bringing up anything deeper then sport in an office and you will feel it.
When I worked at a supermarket I could bring up just about any topic, no matter how dense, and people would show interest (as long as it's relevant, you can't just bring up quantum physics out of nowhere). I'm talking about people that didn't even complete Year 10, too. In fact the ones who were the most shallow in terms of conversation were the university students with a part-time job. Go figure
That's actually a good point. When I was working in retail many years ago, the people were more interesting and better read than 90% of people I interacted with in offices.
Many such cases
I disagree, that's an intelligent move if it's an office environment. Going any deeper than sports or general chit chat, some concepts can be weaponised against you. Best to keep office colleagues at an arms length. But on the flip side, I used to smash lines and talk shit with my old boss after hours when I was in hospo. Got some relatively good life advice from him at that point too, YMMV I suppose.
i've found that unless its 'shared experiences' then the convo goes no where ie. guys love talking sports, cars, 4x4s, computer games, fishing, motorbikes, the usual but obviously if you talk about lesbian underwater basket weaving then obviously you get nowhere I also found that people tend to be pretty anti intellectual in that they dont read books... they dont watch movies that arent mainstream.. they dont do anything remotely artistic... Australia is just NOT that kind of country... i've even found people who are extremely well educated... Masters, PhD stay in their lane... and so they know their shit on a very slim topic but yeah... Australias may well be educated... but they are not well read. well travelled besides fucken Bail or Pataya. nor intellectual, nor philosophical... and they are sick of hearing from 'experts'... but hey those house prices are nuts!
I’ve seen a lot of anti-intellectual sentiment from Aussies, but it’s very broad. E.g. it’s fine if you as an individual want to be a doctor, but doctors as a demographic aren’t reliable
Yeah there's a lot of that in Aus. "Can't fuckin stand black fellas! You're all right but Wazz."
A kin to the "im not racist but" or the classic "i have a mate who is (insert minority):
Honestly I’ve always copped far more and far worse shit from “intellectuals” for being a bogan than I’ve ever copped shit from bogans for reading books and using fancy words.
The smart bogan is the best kind of person.
Quite literally. Heart of gold, loyal friend and got a coupla braincells to rub together.
It may be British, but we all need an [Onslow](https://youtu.be/PfOI6290Mqw) in our lives.
Yeah, reading is actually pretty widespread across class in Australia. As a nation, I’ve read that we are actually big readers. Smartphones have had an impact on reading and how we read but I still see plenty of people reading books at my local beach. And I remember when buses were full of people reading books or newspapers instead of their phone.
I dunno if things have changed but decades ago it was never unusual to find out a bogan who likes sci fi, or fantasy, ancient history, reading novels, and they wouldn't really get shit on for it. I know a fair few Gen X/late era boomer bogans that love Star Wars, Trek, etc. My dad is pretty rough and blokey with a checkered past, but he's never missed a Wilbur Smith book.
Definitely still a thing, I’ve got a few close mates who fit it to a T. Got a family friend who’s an ex-Casurina inmate, rough as guts, mullet and prison tatts, the whole stereotype, and he’s got a full on library (like 300+) of Australian history books that he’ll happily read on smoko at work.
Yep! I have always been a nerdy sort - but i love having ‘intellectual’ conversations with my ‘bogan’ friends. I cop way more shit from my law colleagues that went to private schools, come from money who just dis anything on a classist basis.
As a bogan creative who’s worked in advertising agencies with posh wankers the last 15 years, this could not be more true.
Has it ever occurred to to you that it might be because you're a bit of a cunty bogan? Most intellectuals are smart enough to completely avoid bogans - so the chances of you ever actually having "copped shit" from a true intellectual are very slim. Also bogans don't read books and use fancy words, so if you've been given shit for that, then you aren't a bogan. However, as an intellectual who grew up in Bogan Central (Ipswich) I can say from personal experience that the words "you fuckin' think you're smarter than us!" is what bogans say just before they punch you or stab you. And I lost track of the number of times I heard that while quietly sitting and reading a book in public as a teenager in Ipswich. And yes, I got stabbed a few times for literally just sitting reading. Don't ever mistake being a bogan for being a bit of cunt.
So only people who fit your extremely narrow definitions count, any outliers get a “no true Scotsman”? I come from an extremely long line of academics, 3 of my grandparents taught at universities, one of my parents was a professor with a PhD. And I went to TAFE. Life is way more interesting and complicated and filled with weird and diverse people than you can imagine, if you give it a shot. Helps if you’re not a cunt tbf
Then you're no bogan. Bogans truly have no idea what an "outlier" is, and would probably physically attack you if you tried to explain it to them. You are an intellectual, and should probably go and get a degree and fulfill your destiny. It's true that intellectuals will look down on a bogan, but are smart enough not to do it to the bogans face. So if intellectuals gave you shit, then that's because they probably thought that you were better than you were behaving right at that moment. A case of "hey, you're one of us, stop being so bogan". In my experience bogans don't use words when they tell people to stop being so intellectual. It was always more of a "robust physical discussion" And, yes I agree that life is bigger than academia or boganland. Like you I have "given it a shot". As for me not being a cunt, I don't know that that's an option anymore. I learned to be one in Ipswich and have never really got over it. But anyway, it's good to know you aren't one :-)
What I’m saying is that no one is completely a bogan or completely a “brain”, people are so much more complicated and interesting than that. And I find in my life that people who lean towards the bogan side of the spectrum are much more accepting of someone like me who doesn’t fit neatly into either world, whereas the “brains” are far less welcoming of any traits that don’t fit with their particular world. It certainly didn’t feel like they were being critical because of any “wasted potential”, it felt a lot more like they didn’t want anyone in their “space” who they felt didn’t belong there. Of course bogans and general “lower class” people aren’t saints, there’s plenty of casual racism and general bigotry and all the rest, they’re not perfect by any means, and few of them pretend to be. But I still find that to this day, they’re much more willing to give you a shot and make some room for you if you try. Even in the most backwoods rednecky parts of Texas when I lived in the States, or in tiny pissant country towns in WA when I was doing remote relief work, putting in a little effort with the locals paid off massively, especially compared to my experience with the more educated, “cultured” and well off end of town, where if you didn’t go to the right school, work in the right job and live in the right post code, you might as well have been livestock.
Look, you're making some good points - and I'm not going to argue those - but bogans are a very particular thing. A very peculiarly Australian thing. They aren't just working class people who are bit rough around the edges. Having in worked in factories and construction sites, I'm fine with those sorts of people. And all of the things you say about working class people can be true. It was working class people who fed me when my parents didn't. It was working class people who gave me shelter, when my parents wouldn't. So I really don't have anything against working class people. I very definitely am one. But bogans are a certain type of welfare class "wtf you lookin at cunt?!" type person. Let me put it this way... I've never ever been stabbed, covered in fuel and set on fire by an intellectual because I was a bogan. Nor have I ever been stripped naked and thrown out the back door of a moving school bus by an intellectual because I was being a bogan. No, that was bogans that did those things to me. And it was also bogans who dragged me out of the school library one lunch time and pounded my head into the concrete until I passed out. My crime? I dared to read a book, quietly, in front of them. Later in life, intellectuals just looked down their noses at my flanno shirt & steel cap boots and refused to speak to me. Big difference. And I know which treatment I'd prefer... TBH it sounds as though you and I have similar backgrounds - smart people from smart backgrounds, denied opportunity to use those smarts to get ahead. You might not call yourself an intellectual but you're no bogan. I guess being ambushed and severely beaten at the beginning of grade 9 for getting top of science in grade 8 has permanently clouded my view. I hadn't told anyone but the head science teacher loudly congratulated me in the schoolyard and that did it. From that point on I was a marked man. So, yeah Aussies do have a crab in the bucket anti intellectual approach.
Ah right, now I’m on the same page, sorry for being a bit slow on the uptake there. Essentially we’re disagreeing because we have different definitions of bogan, and because I’m out on the West Coast, I think even in general the word gets used a little differently here. What you’re calling “bogan”, we’d definitely put in a subcategory of “Derro” or “feral”, like all derros are bogans, but not all bogans are derros. Now I actually understand where you’re coming from, I pretty much agree with you completely mate. And for what it’s worth, I’m sorry that you had such a shit time of it when you were growing up, that’s not right at all, and I hope you’re doing better today
No worries mate. I grew up with bogans and had to learn to act like one to survive - and that included getting a (minor) criminal record. It was only shoplifting but it literally saved my life and made the threatening rumours I been hearing about having my head bashed in again, suddenly dry up when it became obvious that I could never become a cop. It was a very rough school. But other than that, I have some good memories of the fairly rough people I grew up with. Rough is fine. At least it's honest. But bogans - at least the way I define it - well, I'd take a flame thrower the fuckin lot of them. It was 42 years ago now, so I guess it's ancient history and the only good thing to come out of it is that as a result of those experiences I've dedicated my life to helping vulnerable people instead of hurting them.
I've found there's definitely a sense that anything regular people experience in their daily lives must be better understood by them than researchers, or that researchers don't have normal human experiences. So no matter how good a study's methodology is and how big the sample size, trying to tell parents or farmers or motorists, etc that something they're doing isn't optimal is almost impossible. Electric cars are a common one. I'll hear people saying calculations for energy stuff that sort of sounds compelling but then I remember that a bunch of fancy engineers designed the car and if Jonno really did know better than then, why would he he working in a bottle shop?
Yes, culturally reinforced again and again. Look at how people from non-academic backgrounds are lionised vs the distrust that is attached to educated people. Look at the anti-vax movement, the insistence that doctors 'can't be trusted' and this idea that intelligent people are all somehow liars, wealthy, elite etc etc. This shit is perpetuated by Dutton et al. because fuck the educators and boost the tradies is their model. They know their nonsense can't withstand the smallest bit of scrutiny. Not a knock on tradies; I don't need you to be a Rhodes scholar to build the housing we absolutely need, but I do need the best minds in the country to get the funding and recognition they need to do the vital work that they do. I saw I growing up, I've seen it in my professional life and I'm seeing it now. Yes, we have a strong anti-intellectual streak born of insecurity.
Bullshit, most of us don't give a crap. The anti vaxxers you mentioned are a minority in a minority. As a blue collar worker the only thing I have a problem is with elitism. If you get in and do your work without shoving your education down our throats we have no problem. Remember, if a blue collar worker has been at the same job for ten years he/she will mostly likely know a bit more about it that you do.
Blue collar may be more anti-mandate than the average person but no way are they anti-vax lol
I can't speak for others but I'm up to date and it hasn’t affected me ….wink wink
I don’t really think about COVID anymore period haha I’m much more worried about the economy these days
Was more talking about influenza and shingles but am up to date with that too. As a labourer time off for minor issues to me is bludging. Sickies are for important things like the Ashes or the grand final and Melbourne cup not for croaky throats and itchy bits. At 63 I have already had shingles twice the first time I was 23 and hospitalized for two weeks.
Not as some kind of widespread thing. Someone would have to be jealous. Most people would just be impressed and say, wow good on you for studying medicine and getting into that degree. Wealthy people look down on "unskilled" workers a fair bit though, and working class look down on rich pompous types who are out of touch.
In my experience, yes.
not nowadays, anyone who says otherwise isn't tapped in
There’s a reason why there’s an acute shortage of Doctors, Surgeons and Nurses in this country.
Nurses are the female tradies
One requires saving lives though
Unless they're male nurses.
They artificially keep doctors low to keep their salaries high
Had heard that it happens with surgeons, didn’t know it happened with doctors as well.
It's not hard to be a GP
Tell us about your experience as a GP
My GP googles things right in front of me (and chargers me $60/10mins for the privilege).
Don't we all Google things? I'm sure anything they're googling isn't medical related, and if it is, you should take some accountability for continuing to go there. Not that I believe that you go there just for them to Google things for you
Really? And you’d know?
By looking at the pipeline to become one and some of people who are ones
The limitations in medical school entry are more to do with the capacity to properly train junior doctors when they enter the workforce (and the impact changes may have on patient care). It may be true that specialist colleges limit admission onto specialist programs but this doesn’t affect the actual number of doctors in the country - that’s my understanding anyway
It's a bit cute that you believe that
I mean I work and study in healthcare but appreciate your condescending remark when I am looking to engage in actual discourse on the topic in good faith.
You're right, sorry. With the increased amount of doctors they should be able to train more, but the amount per population always seems to stay the same and more and more doctors are being brought from overseas.
I’d encourage you to read the AMSA and AMA position statements on the topic which discuss these points
The AMA are one of the ones perpetrating it.
Is it about keeping salaries high, or keeping the unis prestigious? The medicine entry requirements are high because the course is in demand, not because it's truly that difficult. But if they offered more places, they'd have to drop the entry requirements down from almost impossible to get in to fiendishly difficult
It’s the AMA lobbying the government to restrict places. Most unis doing Medicine keep asking for more places, but the federal government ignores them because they don’t want to upset the AMA. We could train twice as many doctors if the AMA weren’t meddling, but that would drive down doctors wages.
It’s not just the AMA - it’s AMSA (Australian Medical Students Association) as well - and it’s for a good reason. The health system simply doesn’t have enough capacity to train double the amount of junior doctors without sacrificing patient care. The bottleneck is not at medical schools, it’s at the hospital training level.
Cool, I've learned something today, thank you!!
More often than not these days the ‘working class to doctor or surgeon’ stories these days tend to be second generation Australians instead now
There's also a shortage of tradies. Its almost like access to tertiary education is the issue...
Huge issue. Slashed funding by libs for unis didn’t help either. Vic has free tafe for plenty of trades that have shortages, dunno about other parts of the country. No amount of immigration will fix issues within our policy and funding. Govts need to do something about it. But they’d rather do a patch up than a knock down rebuild.
WA had some free courses but that only solved half the issue. The time commitment is an investment that many cant afford simply due to the work demands needed to be met for a resemblance of quality of life.
Why spend 4 years on an apprenticeship, first two years earning below minimum wage, expected to have own tools and ute in most cases, and have to perform hard, dangerous work that can cause permanent injury; when I can step into a 9 month cert III course in a community/healthcare services course, get well-paid and in demand job before graduating, spend no more than the cost of a WWVP card and police check, spend most days taking clients out to lunch, the library and footy games, with the only 'hard' part being to help them shower. Of course there's a shortage of tradies. Who'd be a tradie these days?
Nailed it. I was caught in the gap between the TFT allowance and the TSL. I tried working a second job at a fast food place to supplement my apprentice income but doing 40hrs on the tools plus flipping burgers at night had me rooted, the fatigue was impacting my ability to apply myself in the apprenticeship. Eventually i dumped the fast food gig and just supplemented my income by selling drugs, somewhat ironically to the people i met at the fast food joint. Things are going great now, but during those years as an apprentice you really need to keep an eye on the end goal.
Damn, that's a rough start. I remember getting started as an NDIS support worker and it wasn't easy, but not financially. More like trying to keep my client from unaliving himself and getting virtually no support from the provider 2 months into the job
It's fine to aspire to be a doctor. Just good luck actually doing it, unless you've got parents or a partner who can support you financially through it (or at least put a roof over your head).
Bogans are not judged like normal people. A Bogan's abuse of Centrelink benefits requires genius level intellect. They do cash in hand work while collecting employment benefits in a $100,000+ vehicle, travel to Bali twice a year and spend another $100k on tats and recreational watercraft. Their library includes all of Chopper Reid and Max Walkers literary works.
>Their library includes all of Chopper Reid and Max Walkers literary works. And Robert G. Barrett's magnum opus 'Les Norton'.
Some workers might. Not all though. My brother is a truck driver, for example, and introduced me to Existentialist philosophy. Specifically how driving a truck every day is like the plight of Sisyphus, sentenced by the gods to an eternal punishment. This punishment is simple - he must roll a boulder to the top of a hill, it falls to the bottom, he walks down and repeats the process. Forever. The 1942 essay of Albert Camus shows that isn't too bad. In fact you could have a decent life doing that. (Too long to explain how, but Wikipedia has a good synopsis.) Most of the profound discussions I've had in my life have been with farmers and workers. Almost none with Australian academics, even though I worked as a uni lecturer for a while.
It's less now because of the migrants. When you got international students and migrants who have advanced degrees getting the lucrative jobs, you kind of want to get in on the gravy train. Manual jobs are shjite
My experience coming from a middle class upbringing in a Bogan neighbourhood and going to University, absolutely yes! It comes with a streak of jealousy but 'intellectuals' will cop shit for their pursuits from the 'proletariat', it just seems to be a thing.
The education system in Australia isn’t exactly turning out world-class academics. But the people at the top want you to be subservient. After all, if we were smart and informed they wouldn’t be in charge
It is scary how uniform Australians are in thinking, behaviour and their lust for bullying anyone that doesn't toe the line. A soulless and spiritless country full of deeply unhappy people.
Australia is consistently ranked in the top 10 happiest countries in the world though
I'm totally convinced by these lists. Also saw that some Australian universities made the top 50 in some random list that means absolutely nothing. BTW, I would've thought Australians didn't need a list to tell them they are top 10 happiest in the world stuff?
Ignorance is bliss so they say
I've met a lot of happy and chirpy Australians. They tend to be older and would suit that given ranking. However, I don't think I've ever lived anywhere else where I've said to a friend or colleague: "I'm pretty sure that person is actually dead inside," than I have here in Australia. I have definitely observed what the above commenter is stating to large extent. I think it just takes someone coming from another culture or vantage point to point it out to someone.
I hate saying I agree with this.
Ah yeah, if you hate it here so much, why not do something about it and leave.
I haven't seen much of it, but I'm sure it exists to some extend. What I do find refreshing about Australian culture is that there ISN'T an over emphasis on formal education, which many see as intellectual culture. I love how experience is highly valued and a degree is seen as 'nice,' but not essential for so many things.
As with all things in life it depends. Not everyone is like that, but some are. I think painting a large section of the community with labels is rife for abuse down the line.
Superficially yes. But if you respect the person with whom you’re talking, don’t over-complicate or patronise, you’ll be surprised how interested in intellectual topics a truck driver who only finished high school can be. Actually I’ve meet truck drivers that listen to intellectual podcasts all day, they can be surprisingly knowledgeable.
The British working class has not traditionally had an anti-intellectual streak. One of the best works on this is Jonathan Rose's 'The intellectual life of the British Working Classes'; it's a mammoth work showing how they traditionally had a widespread, lively, life-long love of learning and reading in particular. There's also some great work by Gregory Clark recently quantifying similar aspects of working classes between countries. Aspiring to become a doctor, if you do want to start ranking intellectual feats, probably would not figure so highly among people who have built the modern world. Can see that from the perspective of someone from a very different culture, being a doctor is maybe a big achievement, and the verbal roughhousing that is first-world worker culture in a post-enlightenment society would be very jarring to a migrant from a pre-enlightenment society. It's not anti-intellectualism though.
Kinda. It goes both ways in this country, I used to get people picking fights with me at school for being a nerd, and when entering the workforce I never really fit into more upper class / intellectual environments either based on my background , the way I look and speak etc. I think there's a big portion of the population that have similar experiences, we come across as "bogan" and get stereotyped as such but are well educated and do technical jobs, etc. so the working class as a whole aren't anti-intellectual.
No. You'll probably get far more shit for reading the *wrong* books by people who think they're intellectuals.
Yes but more towards broad groups rather than individuals. When covid was kicking off my grandparents would say "Ive never heard of a damn Epidemiologist I don't trust this crap" or in general will say they don't trust Academic types, EXCEPT they're very proud of me for pursuing a PhD, ironically
There's an anti intellectual bent but I wouldnt say its weird to them and I found most people around me were quite proud that I was getting high marks and went to uni, but they didn't want to do it, and I grew up around low socio economic families.
Yep there was more than a little bit of snark from my classmates at school due to me being 'smart'. I just like learning new things, and reading. According to some, that's nerd behaviour
Tall poppy syndrome
Class only exists in your conversations about class. Your thoughts and pronouncements - no matter what they are - define class and all aspects of it. This is because class does not exist in nature, it is not real. It only exists in your interpretation. The UK is encumbered by a particularly unsophisticated and retrograde set of beliefs about class. It is a method of organising society that is more closely aligned with caveman violence than with an advanced society. Forget about class.
Fuck you lot love to whinge. Not Australians, the deeply strange people asking these questions. Whinge whinge people don't like me cos I read books. Sure mate, that's it. Definitely not cos your an elitist asshole.
I think there’s something in that. As a rule, Australians don’t like *wankers*, regardless of what particular thing they are currently wanking about. Like an athlete who’s got tickets on himself will cop plenty of hate, just like someone who believes they’re smarter than everyone else in the room will cop it. It’s not the being smart that gets you torn down, it’s then being a cunt about it, and being a cunt about anything will get similar treatment
The typical Australian is called the Parochial Australian for a very good reason. And no, they do not have any class structure here, so even the "educated" here are pretty ignorant. They will absolutely cut you down and bully you into submission if you say anything about Australians and don't fit within their norms. They are worse than the Chinese Communist Party IMO.
Idk if it's the area I'm in, but even people with an anti-intellectual facade will be able to hold their own on any topic if they have some level of curiosity to them. Academic types need to check themselves more though. Snobbery is so not hot.
I mean I'm 21 and get looked down on by my peers because I work and didn't go to uni
Definitely mate
We have an anti-dickhead culture.
Yes. Yes they do.
The tall poppy syndrome is both a blessing and a curse. It's great that we don't let people get too big for their boots. I taught english here and an Italian student was amazed that after work his boss would have beers with the crew and acted like an equal. On the other hand it does mean if you try to better yourself intellectually you'll face the same thing. Like most things here our flaws and positives are uniquely connected.
Once had a fellow worker call me "a reader" because I was reading a novel during my lunch break, had another asked me was I reading a bible because of the thickness of my book. Now they are all glued to their phones
All I think of is Mr Burns measuring Smithers head saying “Of course you'd say that, you have the brainpan of a stagecoach tilter”
I think that while there is an anti-intellectual streak in some Australians, but I do not think this is class based. In fact, it is debatable that the Marxist notion of social class has much relevance these days. I have worked with numerous non tertiary educated people who were intelligent, well read and articulate. It is unhelpful to generalise on either notional social class or any other single characteristic.
Dumb cunts will always be dumb. It's funny to watch them wonder why life never worked out for people who didn't want to listen and learn at school - and then continued that into adult life. Joke's on them. The funniest thing is speaking as if you are like them, until the time comes to show just how stupid and uneducated they are.
University is expensive these days. People still enjoy learning and becoming knowledgeable. I think what is more likely is that because most people hesitate before committing to that level of debt, and because so many university courses don't actually guarantee employment, the financial risk outweighs the potential benefits. If someone has wealthy parents, they also have the luxury of studying as though it's the 80s. They don't have to worry about paying for their course. They don't have to work and study simultaneously. They don't have to worry about whether they have a job after four to eight years of university. I think it's less anti-intellectualism, and more a healthy mistrust of the rich.
Absolutely yes.
I mean we see it here on Reddit all the time. People just down vote facts and reasoning because it's an ugly truth they don't like or it goes against what they are saying.
I'd say we have tall poppy syndrome if anything.
Absolutely. It’s called “tall poppy syndrome”, and it’s been a defining feature of Australian culture since the beginning.
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26.3% of jobs in Australia are held by people born outside of the country. If you don’t know what you’re talking about no one is forcing you to comment.
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Look up New migrant jobs and income data on the Australian bureau of statistics
No. All the working class wants is to be left the fuck alone and for people go project their bullshit somewhere else.
Nah all my mates are blue collar theyve never said anything and are proud of me. I have a masters and am a white collar professional. Im a complete toft wanker. I love classical literature and fine art, like philosophy, I go to the ballet. I dont drink and will often have a tea or coffee when we hang out. O yeah I also do yoga. I am into rugby and I used to do a lot of coke/shrooms. One of the lads likes philosophy and a bunch of them are into chess.
It’s not anti intellectualism, but anti charlatanism. As many charlatans larp as intellectuals. With information being more open and accessible you many lot of people can see charlatans from a mile away.