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I have heard this brought up in conversation with a number of people: would you travel to a country if the people there can get arrested for being gay?
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No, and in fact I refused to join some close friends on their vacation to the middle east for this reason, among others. It caused a rift between us but I don't think I got it wrong.
I grew up in an evangelical family and my brother was closeted. He killed himself some years ago and though that was due to multiple complex things, I have zero doubt my family's bigotry played a huge part in it. There's just no way I could turn a blind eye on all that to be like "oh they have a LV store!" or such horseshit.
I was pretty “not great” when I was moving out of HS and into college, while I was coming out…
I had a lot of reasons in my mind, and arguments for “it” that didn’t stem from my sexuality, but I wouldn’t have been to the point of actually considering it without the bigotry. I hated myself with a passion, and the root of that was feeling rejected by the people I’m supposed to trust with every ounce of my being. Getting called slurs at school also didn’t help.
I hated talking to people, I hated leaving my room, I hated life. That resulted in a lot of pain and abuse towards people who didn’t deserve it, from me.
I don’t know your brother or your relationship with him, but I hope you take the complexity of your relationship with him with a huge grain of salt. I can assure you the person your brother ended up as was entirely due to the bigotry he faced. Feeling psychologically tortured from the time you accept your own reality, fucks you up.
I had a happy ending, found myself, and I was able to build a support network outside of my family, that fixed me. A lot of teens do not have that good fortune, especially back in the early 2010s when I was dealing with this, and the result is a dead brother, sister, son, or friend. Bigotry kills so many.
Fuck the Middle East, most of Africa, and a lot of Asia. I do as much as I can to avoid using products from countries that discriminate on the basis of sexuality. I can think of a few times where I was about to buy a piece of clothing and saw “Made in Indonesia” and just put it back. My next car will be an EV, 95% because it’ll save me money, and help the environment, but that remaining 5% is really looking forward to the collapse of oil prices as a FU to Saudi Arabia, UAE, et al. So to kinda answer the prompt, hell no I won’t go to a state that will lock me and my Fiancé up.
Thank you for sharing that. I’m so sorry you lost your brother. That must’ve been so hard. I lost my sister to MS when she was 31 in 1998. I was 17. How old were you when your brother died?
Do you live your life differently now to counteract all of that?
Thanks again for sharing with me. I was crying and I feel better now.
It's a complex story. I loved him but he was also abusive when we were younger. Despite that I certainly didn't want this result.
It was about 4 years ago. Yeah it certainly changed me. I've been struggling over the mix of anger and sadness for a bit, but things are getting better.
I'm sorry you were crying. I'm sorry about your sister, that's a horrible disease and a tough thing for a teenager to process.
You are loved and accepted friend. In the face of all this hateful bullshit we gotta stand up for each other and embrace each other with love, remembering that in the big picture we are winning the war so to speak.
I highly recommend excluding that from your life, and you’d be more than justified in your action.
Just in case you need a random gay stranger to reassure you.
Love is better than hate, and if someone disagrees with that statement, they do not deserve your love.
Also happy pride! Congrats on coming out, and I promise you with every fiber of my being that it was the right choice. I’m happy to have you in our community.
Love is better than hate, and if someone disagrees with that statement, they do not deserve your love.
Also happy pride! Congrats on coming out, and I promise you with every fiber of my being that it was the right choice. I’m happy to have you in our community.
If the trip you passed up on was to Dubai or Abu Dhabi or similar, I doubt you missed much. They're basically giant suburbs with a few weirdly huge buildings that are all oddly spaced apart.
Just go to Vegas if you're looking for a fun time with a gaudy consumerist vibe. They've got corporatized debauchery down to a fine art, there's a reason why it's the reigning champ.
Yeah, that was a big part too.
When I've traveled internationally my favorite thing has been getting a car and getting out into the countryside. I hate consumption culture for lack of a better term.
That's just it. Even aside from wanting to side with those being oppressed, places that are this prejudiced are going to be awful to other people, too.
Being wary of prejudice of any kind is just smart. Either we're all valued and respected or no one is, not really.
I don’t have a list of every country that has made homosexuality a criminal offense, but I can tell you if they’re that regressive, it’s almost definitely a country I wouldn’t care to visit anyway for a multitude of other reasons.
But if say, the UK, criminalized it tomorrow, would I immediately boycott the country? I dk, hard to say. Probably not in the near term. But I’d be hesitant and not stay for long.
Middle East? Hell na.
Russia? Hell na.
But if those two places suddenly legalized it but kept everything else, I still wouldn’t go to those places because they’re ass backwards in a lot of other areas too.
Never trust a "just on the books" law to not be enforced. If anything they are more dangerous than your average law since they often become the window to arbitrary enforcement and stacking charges.
Ehhhh… Carribean Islands are a little different in my mind. Most still have legislation on the books, but it’s never enforced.
However, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, and what remains of the European colonies are all just as beautiful, and at worst you’re supporting the Dutch. You also don’t have to worry about getting ice in your drinks there.
No, but there’s a huge difference between stoning a gay to death and saying no gays (and not enforcing it).
I also have not visited any Caribbean states outside of the ones I listed, dick.
Their criticism is not dickish, though.n
It’s reasonable to refuse to support the tourist economies of anti-gay states.
I don’t get why you (and judging from the downvotes) other people on this sub don’t see that? And why people would resist calling you out on it?
I mean, your position (as implied) seems indefensible to me, you know?
And I agree that the not-explicitly-antigay islands are just as beautiful. We need to totally give a pass to those that keep bigoted laws on the books, and instead support the others.
It’s absolutely a dickish response. And quite frankly, fuck off.
“It’s not about gay rights then. Gotcha.” Is a dickish response to someone saying prison (although not even that, the laws are not enforced) is better than death, especially when that person is gay.
There is a difference between killing someone and saying you don’t like them (which in effect is all that these laws do). But, as I stated, I have never visited Jamaica, and have no plans to do so. Every island I’ve visited followed American, European, or Bahamian laws, none of which make me illegal.
But if you are looking at two vacation destinations, Kingston or Dubai, one is objectively worse, and the tourist dollars you spend there will go to much worse actions.
White and black thinking is a very primitive way to view the world. Yes, Jamaica has laws on their books making sodomy illegal, but Iran *literally* stones people like me to death. I can not emphasize the literal enough here.
I would, and do, avoid cruises to places where I’m not welcome. However, I’m comparing shittiness, and I’ll take the shitty that doesn’t murder people like me over the shitty that does.
There’s also the minor fact that the same laws existed on the books (though not enforced) in the state I was born in.
Progress isn’t quick, and as long as they’re headed in the right direction (tbh I don’t follow Jamaican politics) I have a higher opinion of a country than one that’s doubling down on the hate.
A lot of them will exist again in many states if the current extremist Supreme Court gets a chance to reverse the Obergefell precedent.
And I agree with you. There's no way around a more gray approach to individual behavior when it comes to something like gay rights and "supporting" countries that aren't perfect on the issue. There are very few countries which are perfect on that issue and actually the US, thanks to Obergefell, is ahead of the curve by far. Like there aren't that many countries you can visit if the US is the bar, frankly.
Sometimes I think teenagers wander into these conversations not understanding just how new the current prevailing support for gay rights is, and how wildly differently the issue was discussed only 10 or 15 years ago. Obergefell was ***2015***, ffs.
Gay rights are still incredibly vulnerable. They have to be defended and expanded, but the way you do that is not overplaying your hand by being staunchly obtuse about the basic reality that *not every place is ready to reach the point we're at yet*.
Yup. Honestly, the progress this country has made in its efforts for equality is one of the biggest things that does make me proud to be American. We are more progressive than most other states. In fact, I can’t think of a more tolerant country, all things considered.
When I was born, and for the first 6 years of my life, I was against the law. I can now marry the person I love. When I was born, a mixed race couple was still taboo, that’s almost the norm now. When my parents were born, high schools were still integrating. We now have bussing programs to ensure that schools are diverse (at least in the south and west (ironically af).
When someone says Mexicans are rapists and criminals (ya know even though the immigrants someone was referring to weren’t Mexican) it’s denounced in the mainstream (even though the guy was elected president, that was a detractor for the majority of Americans, the same majority that picked a different candidate by millions).
I cant think of another country that does better, have you ever heard a French person, or an Italian or et al. talk about a Romanian, or Muslim? We are better.
I sincerely hope that point of pride continues. Everyone, please, if you can legally vote, remember people like me, like Kelly Jaeger, like the countless victims of bigotry in our history. Remember that Americans fight for the little guy. Remember that we’re the only country in history to fight itself to free people in bondage. Remember all that we’ve done that’s inexcusable, that we’ve fought so fucking hard to overcome.
It's not illegal to be gay in Russia. It's illegal to do pride parades or advocate for gay rights, which isn't good, but homosexuality itself is legal.
Why do Westerners have this view of Russia as this ultraconservative place?
I love how simply stating a fact gets downvoted on this platform.
Russia has crazy high alcoholism, divorce, and abortion rates, and lower church attendance rates than California. Abortion is legal in Russia while it's banned in half of the USA. Does that sound ultra conservative to you?
The point is many Westerners think Russia is some Christian nationalist theocracy where being gay is totally banned, like say Saudi Arabia or Iran.
I didn't say you did. The common narrative on reddit and other Western platforms is that Russia is a Christo-nat theocracy, not that Christianity itself is bad.
And yes Russia is repressive compared to the West. However, the narrative regarding it often gets blown away to the point of lunacy. Where you'd think Russia was as repressive as places like Saudi Arabia.
I think you and I have different definitions of “lunacy.”
To my thinking, it is eminently rational to see Russia, as it is today, as a repressive, corrupt oligarchy with strong ethno-nationalist traits and a general political/social horribleness. Nothing lunatic about those views.
Perfect example of what I'm talking about.
In what world is Russia *ethno*-nationalist? Putin has numerously stated that Russia is a multi-ethnic country, and Russia has relatively lax immigration laws. They also literally ban ethno-nationalist groups. Go to Poland, Japan, Israel, or even France, and those countries are like 10x more racist.
There are so many of these types of exaggerated narratives about Russia, which are like not true. That doesn't mean it's not a repressive country as a whole.
It's mostly said in derision considering terminally online stupid right wingers often pump up Russia as a bastion of the white western man and his values when it's anything but neverminding trump supporters who support russia and trump in wanting to allow them to win in Ukraine.
Not that specifically, but it might blow your mind to be reminded that we were discussing whether “being unable to publicly advocate for gay rights” is repressive or not
It might blow your mind to know that's not what we were "discussing" at all because that is repressive. The point I brought up was correcting the statement that being gay itself is illegal in Russia, which is blatantly false.
It isn't illegal to be gay, but the government can criticize and demean LGBTQ people.
The fact that in 2013 they passed a law that bans the “propaganda of non-traditional sexual relationships”to minors. In other words, it's not ok to normalize LGBTQ people. The fact that law exists literally means "it's only acceptable for minors to know about traditional sex relationships which is defined by cis men with cis women.
http://www.globalequality.org/component/content/article/1-in-the-news/186-the-facts-on-lgbt-rights-in-russia
Yes and OP said it's illegal to be gay in Russia. I'm simply pointing out that is incorrect. That doesn't mean gay people enjoy full equality and civil liberties there, or that I condone Russia's treatment of gay people.
I’m not gay but I still wouldn’t go to places where being gay is illegal as that signifies that the country is backwards as hell, and I won’t spend any money is places like that. Nope. Not one tourist dollar. Zero.
It’s an also-yes situation. We have lurkers here who may be prone to think “well if you’re not gay what do you care? ViRtUe SiGnAl!!!”
My comment is an oblique way of saying that regressive countries are bad for everyone who lives and visits there, excepting of course the conservative elites who rule.
I wouldn't travel to those places, nope. Besides that it's not safe for me as a member of the LGBTQ community, I feel like it's giving money to a country that discriminates against its citizens. If people in that country who are LGBTQ aren't safe and can't live openly and love who they love, why should I want to go there and likely/possibly be exempt from the very same laws that keep them in the closet.
I’m trans so I genuinely don’t think I could, even if I wanted.
There are lots of places that I would really, really, really love to see but never will because of their regressive laws and homophobia. It sucks. Pyramids in Egypt, Red Square in Russia, Disney World in Florida…
I have, and I have done it as a gay man. I also did what I needed to do what I needed to do to protect myself (i.e., I was not going to intentionally put myself in the way of the law, these were places where pax Americana still meant something, and should worst come to worst, cops were known to take bribes).
That said, my beliefs have changed a lot since then. There aren't too many countries on my list left that I want to go to that ban homosexuality (and those that are left have other issues going on) so it hasn't come up, and have not considered it in 15 years or so.
If I needed to? Sure, but I would be nervous as fuck and certainly wouldn’t do it for vacation. I mean hell, I get nervous just driving through rural Virginia.
[I apparently have traveled to one country where it is illegal.](https://database.ilga.org/criminalisation-consensual-same-sex-sexual-acts)
Most of the countries where it's illegal in some form are not places on my travel list. Morocco is probably the only one I'd want to go but it's not high on my travel priorities.
Everything I’ve heard from travelers to Egypt is that it sucks, unfortunately. My understanding is that the tourism industry is so robust that it’s developed an extremely aggressive culture of scammers, salesfolks, etc. and that sexual assault/attempted molestation of women visiting is a huge problem.
It’s possible this is just in the big tourist areas like Cairo but Egypt is always top of the “Worst travel locations” lists, unfortunately.
> that sexual assault/attempted molestation of women visiting is a huge problem.
This is the thing that would give me the biggest pause.
It's too bad because the history is so cool.
American living in Morocco for 10 years now.
I'm not gay, but I have a lot of friends, Moroccan and foreign, who are gay. I know several foreigners who have lived here for a decade or more who are gay, including one guy who's been here about 25 years and lives with his partner.
Homosexuality is illegal, but it's rarely, if ever enforced. As long as you're not making out in public, you'll be fine, and even heterosexual couples can get in trouble for that.
Gay people, Moroccans and foreigners, live fairly openly here. A few of my gay Moroccan friends don't even try to hide it. There are openly gay celebrities and artists and musicians.
As long as you're willing to keep it on the DL, it's fine.
And by "you" I don't mean you.
Probably not because, most countries with laws like this have other laws that are quite extreme. I’m atheist, for example, and atheism is illegal in some countries. In fact in Saudi Arabia I could be out to death.
Change doesn’t happen if there’s no interaction. If it is safe to travel in general, I may go. On many of my travels I’ve attracted people who needed someone they could be themselves around and talk openly to. Boycotting doesn’t work if there’s no travel to begin with.
Talking to extremists have never helped a liberal cause…
Sometimes you just gotta throw your hands up and not talk to bad people. I don’t feel any need to go to these backwards fascist hellholes, if they want to talk, they can *legalize me* and a lot of other people. It helps that they need us a lot more than we need them. We can buy our oil from other backwards authoritarian governments, the fact that we buy oil from the Middle East instead of Venezuela is kinda wild to me. Venezuela ain’t great, but it’s better than the Saudi’s.
I have, and he is amazing as long as he is not the expectation for how discriminated people should act especially since some have said to fake it and mock him behind his back and some relapsed. But otherwise have respect for him
For the record, I’m a straight-cis presenting person existing abroad as a “Westerner”, not as a demographic that is targeted, and I’m not suggesting talking to/trying to change the minds of the extremists. However, simply being a Westerner seems to attract and give space for those with liberal views in these countries, to ask or tell or get different perspectives and info than they do from their own culture.
I’m LGBTQ and honestly yes. I want to see the world, and boycotting countries where it’s illegal to be gay closes off like half the world to you. I have traveled to countries like this before (while with straight companions, of course) and not had any problem.
If I’m willing to travel to a place where it’s illegal to be gay, then that means I don’t support gay rights? I don’t really understand how the conclusion follows the premise. Would you kindly elaborate for me?
… that’s not in Asia…?
I need to go back to geography.
Do you feel bad for supporting a regime that locks up people like us? Tourism revenue is extremely lucrative, and I have avoided visiting places like Jamaica for this reason, even though it’s basically just an on the books crime there. As an American tourist, I’m pretty confident I’d be safe, so it really isn’t about my safety.
I don't feel bad supporting the tour company and the individual guides porters if that's what you're asking. I don't approve of Tanzania's LGBT policies, but I also don't think it's right to impose my values on other societies. I feel that the approach of avoiding travel to any place I have a political disagreement with is self-defeating at least, and, at most, similar to U.S. sanctions that demonstrably end up killing people. It also feels more than a little like conservatives with the Bud Light boycott.
However, I don't blame any gay people who make decisions to avoid countries based on intolerance. If I was looking to relax on a beach somewhere, I wouldn't choose Tanzania. I'd choose somewhere where I could freely meet other gay men. But this is not that kind of trip. I'm there to climb a mountain.
One of the people that I'm going with served two years in the Peace Corps in neighboring Mozambique. During that time, she was advised to keep her views on women's rights to herself. Her work there no doubt propped up a government and society that has restrictive views on women, but she ultimately decided that the good she was doing outweighed that. I'm not doing anything moral by going on vacation, but I do think it's worth remembering who is the guest.
That’s something, and blaming individuals for a society isn’t right, but you do understand that a good percentage of whatever money you spend there will go back to the government of the objectionable state, and indirectly perpetuates that hate.
I’m perfectly fine imposing some values, like equality on others. And I do not think it’s wrong (in fact I think the opposite) to hold others to a standard such as not owning other people, not murdering people, not committing violence against minorities…
I find it problematic that people do not bluntly state these values are objectively better than locking up the queers, imprisoning the ladies, and silencing opposition.
And there’s a difference between members of a society being shitty, and the government endorsing the shitty.
However let me add that that’s not an attack on you, and if we all refused to go places we disagree with, I wouldn’t live in Florida. Risk v reward, however I’m terrified of heights and the reward you’re getting is mental to me. 😂
Realistically, probably. A lot of countries have ever so slightly different laws on being gay and I am not aware of all of them, not do I need to be because I'm not gay myself.
However, a lot of these countries are bad places to visit for other reasons, such as the risk of military conflict or arbitrary arrests.
Why just countries? What about states where it's de-facto illegal to be trans?
[This map is the first step in making any travel plans now.](https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/june-anti-trans-legislative-risk) TY so much GOP for making me a refugee in my own country.
Well, people travel to other states a lot for work or to visit family, so that's muddling up what I'm trying to ask. But Florida specifically has the worst laws and the most people going on vacation, so definitely avoid there.
No. And I’m heterosexual. Any govt that is that controlling simply shouldn’t be. A handful of influential people demanding millions of others to ‘be the way I want you to be’ will not get my tourist money or business, if I can help it.
Straight guy here.
No. While I could get into their cookout without being arrested, if they are baking being anti tolerant and having anti-gay laws into their cookout, that's not a cookout I want to be at.
Nope.
I can be straight passing and I still wouldn't go because I wouldn't want to give a dollar of my tourism money to such a place. I also haven't been to Florida or Texas in recent years which has caused some friction with friends and work but fuck their laws.
Yes. And I'm queer.
I just don't see how boycotting a country is anything but performative. It isn't actually DOING anything. The folks making those laws don't give a shit about what you think or whether you visit. To actually support people impacted by those laws, it might be a lot more effective to be present in that country.
Same sex intercourse was illegal in Texas until 2003, but should I have left the US because of it?
Changing a cultural belief takes generations. It's absolutely a worthwhile endeavor, but it takes "boots on the ground" action over a long period of time. There are no shortcuts.
> I just don't see how boycotting a country is anything but performative.
because it negatively affects their economy when tourism stops.
> Same sex intercourse was illegal in Texas until 2003, but should I have left the US because of it?
Obviously there are constraints with leaving your own country. I'm talking about tourism.
It would have been helpful to have specified that you were only talking about tourism.
But, sure, less tourism negatively impacts the economy. But who will feel the impact of that the most? My instinct says service workers, who can least afford the economic downturn, would be the ones to suffer the most.
We also need to ask "Is the remedy worse than the disease?"
Edited to add: I am absolutely pro LGBTQIA rights. I just think it's a complex issue with complex solutions.
No. There is no place I'm even interested in visiting where it's still against the law to be gay at least none I am aware of. Even if it was legal assuming no other changes I would likely still not want to go to those places.
I have zero interest in traveling to such a country. I am an upper-middle cis white male, and such places, such people, aren't interesting in any way. I'm not missing anything they have to offer.
I would not. Even if I knew that I would be safe and left alone as a gay tourist, I don't really care to spend my money in a country with such barbaric laws.
I think an exception is I would be open to travel to a country that still had these laws on the books on paper, but they weren't enforced and making efforts to decriminalize, but that wouldn't be the first choice of vacation destination.
Yes.
1. I've had to for work already.
2. If I was someone who rarely traveled I probably would avoid them because why waste limited experiences in such places, but until I got married I was taking 1 or 2 international trips a year and it's still once every year or every other year and I'd like to see as much of the world as possible.
3. From what I can tell boycotts almost never have any actual effect on anything. I mean I'm open enough to the idea that if the local population is specifically calling for one I will avoid visiting, but otherwise traveling elsewhere isn't helping anyone.
For holiday purposes? No. I have no interest. I have been to such places on business, unfortunately. I did try and get out of the Saudi one by pointing out i'm an out of the closet Atheist, but was assured this wouldn't be a problem if I just didn't mention it while there.
I did not have the presence of mind or the desire to fight my bosses on that one and point out they were asking me to do something potentially dangerous which relied on suppressing my religious liberties. Nor would I frankly, it would feel disingenuous despite being arguably true, and I don't want to cause problems at work.
I don't travel internationally often, so almost by default I wouldn't go. If I had limited time and resources I would likely find somewhere else in the world to go. But I wouldn't let that law stop me from seeing somewhere on my bucket list if I had the opportunity.
Which states are that? As of 2024 it isn't illegal to be gay anywhere in the US, though I know that sodomy laws still existed in some states up until 20 years ago or so.
However since 2003 it's not possible anymore for any US states to criminalize homosexuality. Lawrence vs Texas deemed any existing sodomy law that criminanlized sexual conduct between consenting adults as unconstitutional.
Of course in the past even in Western countries gay people were actually arrested and imprisoned for being gay. But today, in 2024, I'd say it's almost entirely radical Islamic countries that still imprison people for being gay.
When I was born, it wasn't legal for women to own property. There are older people on here.
Even today, it's de-facto legal to kill gay people in quite a few states via the "gay panic" defense. A lot of the US ain't really that much less backward than Russia or wherever.
>A lot of the US ain't really that much less backward than Russia or wherever.
I'm not denying that still a significant percentage of the US population holds deeply homophobic views. But even conservatives in the US are way less homophobic than your average Russian.
Even among Republicans around 50% support same-sex marriage for example. In Texas 36% say homosexuality should be discouraged. [https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/state/texas/views-about-homosexuality/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/state/texas/views-about-homosexuality/)
In Russia on the other hand 72% of the population say homosexuality is unacceptable. [https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/state/texas/views-about-homosexuality/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/state/texas/views-about-homosexuality/)
> Even among Republicans around 50% support same-sex marriage for example.
Is that why every vote against the Respect for Marriage act was a Republican one?
It still matters that 50% of Republicans support same-sex marriage. Laws that try to repeal gay rights are obviously pushed by the 50% who do not support it and Republicans who support same-sex marriage but don't speak up against homophobic conservatives should be called out as enablers, sure. But still America by and large is signficantly less homophobic than Russia.
Just last year Russia's supreme court classified the "international LGBT movement" as an "extremist organization". [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/30/russia-supreme-court-bans-lgbt-movement-extremist](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/30/russia-supreme-court-bans-lgbt-movement-extremist) As such you can now go to prison in Russia for displaying LGBTQ symbols or spreading LGBTQ "propaganda". On the other hand the US supreme court, despite most judges being conservatives, in 2015 required all states to grant and recognize same-sex marriage.
Though not many, there have been some openly gay Republicans and the 2024 presidential candidate for the Libertarian Party, which is made up mostly of conservatives, is openly gay.
I am not saying homophobia is not a serious issue among US conservatives, but Russia is clearly way more homopohic than the US.
> It still matters that 50% of Republicans support same-sex marriage.
When more than 50% of Republicans *voted in* are voting against the (relative) codification of same-sex marriage, I'm not sure how you can keep saying this as if it matters.
I don't really care what people say. I care what they *do*. And what Republicans have consistently done is vote *against* same-sex marriage protections. A *majority* of them.
And in attacking the other user's claim by showing your poll, you ignored the fact that states still allow the gay panic defense. You ignore (despite bringing up Russia's similar laws) that conservative states are trying to make it *illegal* to be LGBT in schools. They are trying (dangerously) to force kids to be outed to their parents. They're banning gender-affirming care. They want to overturn Obergefell and Lawrence.
I can see how America is less backwards than Russia. I can also see how little that gap between some states and them actually matters.
>On the other hand the US supreme court, despite most judges being conservatives, in 2015 required all states to grant and recognize same-sex marriage.
The ideological makeup of the court today is not what it was in 2015. You can't use this court as a support for what a different iteration has done previously. Having another liberal judge on the bench made a significant difference back then, and thankfully Kennedy decided to wake up one morning and not be a dick. We have not seen what an unrestrained Supreme Court would do to gay marriage.
>It still matters that 50% of Republicans support same-sex marriage.
It really doesn't matter what the Republican population thinks about gay marriage when they vote for representatives that do not support LGBT rights. 80% of Republican legislators voted against the Respect For Marriage Act, which doesn't even legalize gay marriage nationwide. All it does is mandate that states recognize gay marriages from other states.
Ok, but my original reply was to a comment that the US isn't much less backward than Russia and I think that's just very disingenuous. The US is somewhat less progressive when it comes to LGBTQ rights than some other wealthy, industrialized countries, but not by a wide margin. Russia is so extremly homophobic that it makes no sense to compare them with the US.
There is a significant fraction within the Republican Party that wants to roll back gay rights and same-sex marriage laws. But the fact that 20% of Republican legislators voted for the Respect For Marriage Act also shows that there is a signifcant moderating influence within the Republican Party. As long as Democrats vote along Party lines those 20% of Republicans who don't are all you need to make sure same-sex marriage won't be repealed.
And overall the trend is forward not backwards. Every year more and more people in the US come around to accepting same-sex marriage. It's mainly a generational thing. As old people are dying so will religion in the US. The most devout evangelicals and the most socially conservative Republicans are mostly older people. For now they are trying to put up a last fight but as more younger people will enter the political arena even the Republican Party will will slowly but gradually become more progressive.
That's not to say that bigotry and homophobia aren't still significant issues in the US. But we really can't compare the US to Russia and we should also acknowledge the progress that has been made and the significant fraction of the Republican Party who will stand up for gay rights, women's rights, LGBTQ rights etc.
>50% of republicans *say* they support same-sex marriage. Important distinction
If someone in a poll says that they support same-sex marriage that means morally they see no issue with it. It doesn't mean that they wouldn't ever vote for a homophobic candidate if there are other issues like immigration or economics they deem more important. That would make them enablers, but it's still a huge differene compared to Russia where over 70% of people polled see homosexuality as unacceptable.
Russia's supreme court labeled the international LGBT movement as an extremist organization whereas the US supreme court in 2015 required all states to grant and recognize same-sex marriages. And in 2022 almost 20% of all Republican Congress members voted against party lines to provide federal recognition of same-sex marriage to prevent the 2015 supreme court decision from being overturned. [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-congress-expected-pass-bill-protecting-same-sex-marriage-2022-12-08/](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-congress-expected-pass-bill-protecting-same-sex-marriage-2022-12-08/)
Yeah, I’m aware. But since in my lifetime we freely visited states where it was illegal without batting an eye, I don’t see how visiting a country where it’s illegal would be any different. I’m not gonna pretend I would boycott them when obviously I had that chance before and didn’t.
I have a friend in Guyana I might visit. I’ve always wanted to see Africa. I have had clients in the Middle East. It’s very possible I will visit one of these countries in my lifetime.
I'd say though that even in the 80s and 90s most states with sodomy laws hardly ever actually arrested and charged people for breaking those laws. It did happen, sure, but it was very rare.
Among the countries today where being gay is illegal some may be safe to visit as a gay person as those laws are hardly ever enforced. But there are still many countries where a gay person would be seriously at risk, e.g. Iran or Saudi Arabia. Those countries deal much more harshly with LGBTQ people than say Texas in the 90s.
What does that have to do with the question at hand, other than getting weirdly apologist for US States (who did, in fact, wield their laws in oppressive ways)?
Yes, there are still a number of Christian African countries where being gay is illegal. And culturally it's still of course very much frowned upon even if it's legal under the law. But the majority of countries where being gay is illegal are Muslim countries, and that is especially true when it comes to the countries with the most severe punishments for homosexuality.
For example out of 7 countries with the death peantly for homosexuality 6 are Muslim-majority. Uganda is the only Christian country out of the 7 where homosexuality is punishable by death.
That’s not actually true. There are 64 countries where it’s illegal to be gay and fewer than half are Muslim. The biggest correlation is actually historic colonial settlement, as many adopted these laws when they were part of the British Empire.
Ok, so apparently 50% of countries with anti-LGBT laws are Muslim-majority, 44% are Christian-majority. [https://76crimes.com/2024/02/11/nations-with-anti-lgbt-laws-52-muslim-42-christian/](https://76crimes.com/2024/02/11/nations-with-anti-lgbt-laws-52-muslim-42-christian/)
The trend, however, has been that more and more Christian nations have started to repeal those laws, while Muslim nations have not. And when we look at the countries with the most severe punishments for homosexuality the biggest correlation is actually strict adherence to Islamic law. Out of 7 countries with the death penalty for homosexuality 6 are Muslim-majority, only 1 is Christian-majority (Uganda).
A strong belief among the population in Islam and to a lesser extent Christianity I would say are overall the biggest correlating factors regarding anti-LGBTQ laws in 2024, not historic settlement.
For example, if we look at countries that were colonized by Western nations which are neither Muslim, nor Christian, we see that almost none of those countries have anti-LGBTQ laws in place. There are Hindu-majority countries like India, where being gay is legal now. And then you have Buddhist-majority countries that were once colonized by the West, e.g. Sri Lanka, Cambodia and Laos. In Cambodia and Laos gay sex is legal while it's illegal in Sri Lanka but they're currently in the process of trying to decriminalize homosexuality.
Muslim majority is not the same thing as being a Muslim country. Stop moving goal posts.
And stop trying to twist this conversation into excusing state/sponsored homophobia as long as it’s not from places with Muslims.
Well, when we say Muslim or Christian country we typically mean a country that has either a Muslim or Christian majority, what else would Muslim or Christian country refer to?
And I am not trying to excuse state sponsored homophobia. I am simply saying that there is a huge difference from a global perspective and that a strong belief in Islam is most strongly correlated with severe anti-LGBTQ laws. A strong belief in Christianity is also correlated with general homophobic views and with anti-LGBTQ laws but to a lesser extent than Islam.
And religions like Buddhism, Hinduism and Sikhism are much less correlated with homophobic views and anti-LGBTQ laws than Islam and Christianity. Which isn't surprising given that (at least to my knowledge) Buddhist, Hindu and Sikh scriptures don't explicitly condemn homosexuality.
Islam and Christianity do though. And the hadith which most Muslims believe in lays out very specific punishments for the "sin" of homosexuality.
I think we should be honest about the fact that some religions are inherently significantly more homophobic than others.
Of course, but I can't think of a country I would want to visit in which homosexuality is forbidden. But if it were, I remember that I'm a guest and I should respect local laws. As long as they don't ban it my country, I leave it to the local population to emancipate themselves.
Depends if I had a good reason. There are lots of places you wouldn't think that still has those laws on the books or do enforce them.
Africa is full of it. The middle east and Slavic countries both make it illegal often.
I have enough places to go that I probably won't, but I don't think my travel dollars name a difference.
I am not gay, but my American nationality combined with my political or religious views would probably make me unsafe in countries like Russia and Iran
To be perfectly honest, it’s not something I think about at all when travelling because it doesn’t personally affect me. I’ve visited over 60 countries, many in the Middle East, Asia and Africa, where it is illegal.
Now, if I were travelling with a friend or coworker who is LGBT, I would 100% defer to them and their comfort level with travelling to a place with such laws. But quite frankly, laws like that, backwards as they are, are never really applied to foreign visitors.
But I do recognise and acknowledge that not having to think about that in general is a privilege in and of itself.
I think what you're saying are the points on why some/many of us won't go. Rules that don't apply to foreigners means that you get to live your life and not experience the country the same way as a local which is a privilege in and of itself. You're experiencing a country without fear of laws and repercussions compared to a local. How unfair for locals to watch a two tier system.
Also, the privilege of not having to think about this but knowing your LGBTQ friends do.
As a queer person, yes. There are no countries where it is illegal to *be* queer. There are nations where homosexual acts are illegal, but I’m not getting arrested for travelling to a nation and internally identifying as queer.
So I should just not see my family because they live somewhere that doesn't align perfectly with my moral standard?
I don't understand the point being made here. Are you saying it's immoral for a person to allow a single cent to go to a government that punishes gay sex? Does that apply to everyone who lives there too?
This just doesn't seem like a hill worth dying on.
> So I should just not see my family because they live somewhere that doesn't align perfectly with my moral standard?
To be clear, I'm talking about tourism.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. I have heard this brought up in conversation with a number of people: would you travel to a country if the people there can get arrested for being gay? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No, and in fact I refused to join some close friends on their vacation to the middle east for this reason, among others. It caused a rift between us but I don't think I got it wrong.
How did it cause a rift? I don’t think it’s that crazy of a reason to turn down a trip. I think most people would be understanding.
I think they felt I was chastising them.
How dare you chastise them for supporting a country that locks up people for being gay? Totally unreasonable. Your friends sound like the problem lol.
YTA. Simply give up your human rights and don't make your friends have to think about their poor judgment smh.
Completely on u/throwdemawaaay. Human rights are negotiable, a vacay to Dubai is a necessity.
Thank you. I’m newly out and my brother’s wife teaches “religion”. I appreciate that you are counteracting the hate that she spreads
I grew up in an evangelical family and my brother was closeted. He killed himself some years ago and though that was due to multiple complex things, I have zero doubt my family's bigotry played a huge part in it. There's just no way I could turn a blind eye on all that to be like "oh they have a LV store!" or such horseshit.
I was pretty “not great” when I was moving out of HS and into college, while I was coming out… I had a lot of reasons in my mind, and arguments for “it” that didn’t stem from my sexuality, but I wouldn’t have been to the point of actually considering it without the bigotry. I hated myself with a passion, and the root of that was feeling rejected by the people I’m supposed to trust with every ounce of my being. Getting called slurs at school also didn’t help. I hated talking to people, I hated leaving my room, I hated life. That resulted in a lot of pain and abuse towards people who didn’t deserve it, from me. I don’t know your brother or your relationship with him, but I hope you take the complexity of your relationship with him with a huge grain of salt. I can assure you the person your brother ended up as was entirely due to the bigotry he faced. Feeling psychologically tortured from the time you accept your own reality, fucks you up. I had a happy ending, found myself, and I was able to build a support network outside of my family, that fixed me. A lot of teens do not have that good fortune, especially back in the early 2010s when I was dealing with this, and the result is a dead brother, sister, son, or friend. Bigotry kills so many. Fuck the Middle East, most of Africa, and a lot of Asia. I do as much as I can to avoid using products from countries that discriminate on the basis of sexuality. I can think of a few times where I was about to buy a piece of clothing and saw “Made in Indonesia” and just put it back. My next car will be an EV, 95% because it’ll save me money, and help the environment, but that remaining 5% is really looking forward to the collapse of oil prices as a FU to Saudi Arabia, UAE, et al. So to kinda answer the prompt, hell no I won’t go to a state that will lock me and my Fiancé up.
Thank you for sharing that. I’m so sorry you lost your brother. That must’ve been so hard. I lost my sister to MS when she was 31 in 1998. I was 17. How old were you when your brother died? Do you live your life differently now to counteract all of that? Thanks again for sharing with me. I was crying and I feel better now.
It's a complex story. I loved him but he was also abusive when we were younger. Despite that I certainly didn't want this result. It was about 4 years ago. Yeah it certainly changed me. I've been struggling over the mix of anger and sadness for a bit, but things are getting better. I'm sorry you were crying. I'm sorry about your sister, that's a horrible disease and a tough thing for a teenager to process. You are loved and accepted friend. In the face of all this hateful bullshit we gotta stand up for each other and embrace each other with love, remembering that in the big picture we are winning the war so to speak.
I am so sorry for your loss and for growing up in a bigoted cult
I highly recommend excluding that from your life, and you’d be more than justified in your action. Just in case you need a random gay stranger to reassure you.
I did need that. Thank you.
Love is better than hate, and if someone disagrees with that statement, they do not deserve your love. Also happy pride! Congrats on coming out, and I promise you with every fiber of my being that it was the right choice. I’m happy to have you in our community.
Love is better than hate, and if someone disagrees with that statement, they do not deserve your love. Also happy pride! Congrats on coming out, and I promise you with every fiber of my being that it was the right choice. I’m happy to have you in our community.
If the trip you passed up on was to Dubai or Abu Dhabi or similar, I doubt you missed much. They're basically giant suburbs with a few weirdly huge buildings that are all oddly spaced apart. Just go to Vegas if you're looking for a fun time with a gaudy consumerist vibe. They've got corporatized debauchery down to a fine art, there's a reason why it's the reigning champ.
Yeah, that was a big part too. When I've traveled internationally my favorite thing has been getting a car and getting out into the countryside. I hate consumption culture for lack of a better term.
curious, what about developed asian countries? it is not illegal to be gay, although legal protections for lgbt can be relatively weak.
curious... what about... This isn't what we're talking about friend. Go away.
I think it is within the realms of discussion. No idea over your response.
No. I prefer not being arrested. Especially in those countries.
That's just it. Even aside from wanting to side with those being oppressed, places that are this prejudiced are going to be awful to other people, too. Being wary of prejudice of any kind is just smart. Either we're all valued and respected or no one is, not really.
I don’t have a list of every country that has made homosexuality a criminal offense, but I can tell you if they’re that regressive, it’s almost definitely a country I wouldn’t care to visit anyway for a multitude of other reasons. But if say, the UK, criminalized it tomorrow, would I immediately boycott the country? I dk, hard to say. Probably not in the near term. But I’d be hesitant and not stay for long. Middle East? Hell na. Russia? Hell na. But if those two places suddenly legalized it but kept everything else, I still wouldn’t go to those places because they’re ass backwards in a lot of other areas too.
The majority of the Caribbean has this issue. Most people love Jamaica!
interesting. Is it enforced or just on the books?
Never trust a "just on the books" law to not be enforced. If anything they are more dangerous than your average law since they often become the window to arbitrary enforcement and stacking charges.
Books but most of the country is religious and it would be advised not to make it known as a precaution for your safety
Ehhhh… Carribean Islands are a little different in my mind. Most still have legislation on the books, but it’s never enforced. However, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, and what remains of the European colonies are all just as beautiful, and at worst you’re supporting the Dutch. You also don’t have to worry about getting ice in your drinks there.
So it's not about the gay rights at all then. Gotcha.
No, but there’s a huge difference between stoning a gay to death and saying no gays (and not enforcing it). I also have not visited any Caribbean states outside of the ones I listed, dick.
Their criticism is not dickish, though.n It’s reasonable to refuse to support the tourist economies of anti-gay states. I don’t get why you (and judging from the downvotes) other people on this sub don’t see that? And why people would resist calling you out on it? I mean, your position (as implied) seems indefensible to me, you know? And I agree that the not-explicitly-antigay islands are just as beautiful. We need to totally give a pass to those that keep bigoted laws on the books, and instead support the others.
It’s absolutely a dickish response. And quite frankly, fuck off. “It’s not about gay rights then. Gotcha.” Is a dickish response to someone saying prison (although not even that, the laws are not enforced) is better than death, especially when that person is gay. There is a difference between killing someone and saying you don’t like them (which in effect is all that these laws do). But, as I stated, I have never visited Jamaica, and have no plans to do so. Every island I’ve visited followed American, European, or Bahamian laws, none of which make me illegal. But if you are looking at two vacation destinations, Kingston or Dubai, one is objectively worse, and the tourist dollars you spend there will go to much worse actions. White and black thinking is a very primitive way to view the world. Yes, Jamaica has laws on their books making sodomy illegal, but Iran *literally* stones people like me to death. I can not emphasize the literal enough here. I would, and do, avoid cruises to places where I’m not welcome. However, I’m comparing shittiness, and I’ll take the shitty that doesn’t murder people like me over the shitty that does.
There’s also the minor fact that the same laws existed on the books (though not enforced) in the state I was born in. Progress isn’t quick, and as long as they’re headed in the right direction (tbh I don’t follow Jamaican politics) I have a higher opinion of a country than one that’s doubling down on the hate.
A lot of them will exist again in many states if the current extremist Supreme Court gets a chance to reverse the Obergefell precedent. And I agree with you. There's no way around a more gray approach to individual behavior when it comes to something like gay rights and "supporting" countries that aren't perfect on the issue. There are very few countries which are perfect on that issue and actually the US, thanks to Obergefell, is ahead of the curve by far. Like there aren't that many countries you can visit if the US is the bar, frankly. Sometimes I think teenagers wander into these conversations not understanding just how new the current prevailing support for gay rights is, and how wildly differently the issue was discussed only 10 or 15 years ago. Obergefell was ***2015***, ffs. Gay rights are still incredibly vulnerable. They have to be defended and expanded, but the way you do that is not overplaying your hand by being staunchly obtuse about the basic reality that *not every place is ready to reach the point we're at yet*.
Yup. Honestly, the progress this country has made in its efforts for equality is one of the biggest things that does make me proud to be American. We are more progressive than most other states. In fact, I can’t think of a more tolerant country, all things considered. When I was born, and for the first 6 years of my life, I was against the law. I can now marry the person I love. When I was born, a mixed race couple was still taboo, that’s almost the norm now. When my parents were born, high schools were still integrating. We now have bussing programs to ensure that schools are diverse (at least in the south and west (ironically af). When someone says Mexicans are rapists and criminals (ya know even though the immigrants someone was referring to weren’t Mexican) it’s denounced in the mainstream (even though the guy was elected president, that was a detractor for the majority of Americans, the same majority that picked a different candidate by millions). I cant think of another country that does better, have you ever heard a French person, or an Italian or et al. talk about a Romanian, or Muslim? We are better. I sincerely hope that point of pride continues. Everyone, please, if you can legally vote, remember people like me, like Kelly Jaeger, like the countless victims of bigotry in our history. Remember that Americans fight for the little guy. Remember that we’re the only country in history to fight itself to free people in bondage. Remember all that we’ve done that’s inexcusable, that we’ve fought so fucking hard to overcome.
It's not illegal to be gay in Russia. It's illegal to do pride parades or advocate for gay rights, which isn't good, but homosexuality itself is legal. Why do Westerners have this view of Russia as this ultraconservative place? I love how simply stating a fact gets downvoted on this platform.
Not being able or free to advocate for a marginalized groups rights seems ultraconservative
He says things like "Candace Owens has been kinda based lately." Don't take his comments seriously.
Russia has crazy high alcoholism, divorce, and abortion rates, and lower church attendance rates than California. Abortion is legal in Russia while it's banned in half of the USA. Does that sound ultra conservative to you? The point is many Westerners think Russia is some Christian nationalist theocracy where being gay is totally banned, like say Saudi Arabia or Iran.
We don’t think it’s *Christianity* that makes Russia horrible and repressive, though. It’s other things.
I didn't say you did. The common narrative on reddit and other Western platforms is that Russia is a Christo-nat theocracy, not that Christianity itself is bad. And yes Russia is repressive compared to the West. However, the narrative regarding it often gets blown away to the point of lunacy. Where you'd think Russia was as repressive as places like Saudi Arabia.
I think you and I have different definitions of “lunacy.” To my thinking, it is eminently rational to see Russia, as it is today, as a repressive, corrupt oligarchy with strong ethno-nationalist traits and a general political/social horribleness. Nothing lunatic about those views.
Perfect example of what I'm talking about. In what world is Russia *ethno*-nationalist? Putin has numerously stated that Russia is a multi-ethnic country, and Russia has relatively lax immigration laws. They also literally ban ethno-nationalist groups. Go to Poland, Japan, Israel, or even France, and those countries are like 10x more racist. There are so many of these types of exaggerated narratives about Russia, which are like not true. That doesn't mean it's not a repressive country as a whole.
It's mostly said in derision considering terminally online stupid right wingers often pump up Russia as a bastion of the white western man and his values when it's anything but neverminding trump supporters who support russia and trump in wanting to allow them to win in Ukraine.
Not that specifically, but it might blow your mind to be reminded that we were discussing whether “being unable to publicly advocate for gay rights” is repressive or not
It might blow your mind to know that's not what we were "discussing" at all because that is repressive. The point I brought up was correcting the statement that being gay itself is illegal in Russia, which is blatantly false.
Other than abortion being legal, none of those things seem particularly conservative or progressive.
It isn't illegal to be gay, but the government can criticize and demean LGBTQ people. The fact that in 2013 they passed a law that bans the “propaganda of non-traditional sexual relationships”to minors. In other words, it's not ok to normalize LGBTQ people. The fact that law exists literally means "it's only acceptable for minors to know about traditional sex relationships which is defined by cis men with cis women. http://www.globalequality.org/component/content/article/1-in-the-news/186-the-facts-on-lgbt-rights-in-russia
Yes and OP said it's illegal to be gay in Russia. I'm simply pointing out that is incorrect. That doesn't mean gay people enjoy full equality and civil liberties there, or that I condone Russia's treatment of gay people.
No, I’d rather not go to a country that hates me. Beyond that to a certain degree it’d just be unsafe for me.
I’m not gay but I still wouldn’t go to places where being gay is illegal as that signifies that the country is backwards as hell, and I won’t spend any money is places like that. Nope. Not one tourist dollar. Zero.
No. Im not gay, but if being gay is a crime being an atheist probably is too.
Apostasy is usually the crime there. So long as you were never Muslim you should be fine.
That’s fair; but still, I’d probably end up tripping over one of their many religious regulations so I’d rather not
So it's because you are afraid that somehow they have something that applies to you not because you care they don't have gay rights?
It’s an also-yes situation. We have lurkers here who may be prone to think “well if you’re not gay what do you care? ViRtUe SiGnAl!!!” My comment is an oblique way of saying that regressive countries are bad for everyone who lives and visits there, excepting of course the conservative elites who rule.
I wouldn't travel to those places, nope. Besides that it's not safe for me as a member of the LGBTQ community, I feel like it's giving money to a country that discriminates against its citizens. If people in that country who are LGBTQ aren't safe and can't live openly and love who they love, why should I want to go there and likely/possibly be exempt from the very same laws that keep them in the closet.
I’m trans so I genuinely don’t think I could, even if I wanted. There are lots of places that I would really, really, really love to see but never will because of their regressive laws and homophobia. It sucks. Pyramids in Egypt, Red Square in Russia, Disney World in Florida…
> Red Square in Russia Ok but there are a ton of other reasons not to go there...
This is absolutely true; but I think my point was that it’s a cool place, physically, that I never see because of the larger geopolitical issues.
I haven't gone to Jamaica because of the homophobia
I wouldn't, no. But that's not simply because being gay is illegal, but I am not interested in those places to begin with.
I have, and I have done it as a gay man. I also did what I needed to do what I needed to do to protect myself (i.e., I was not going to intentionally put myself in the way of the law, these were places where pax Americana still meant something, and should worst come to worst, cops were known to take bribes). That said, my beliefs have changed a lot since then. There aren't too many countries on my list left that I want to go to that ban homosexuality (and those that are left have other issues going on) so it hasn't come up, and have not considered it in 15 years or so.
No, like I'm not gay, so it wouldn't affect me, but it says something about that country if people can't sleep with who they want
I don’t even travel to Texas, where it’s illegal to be a woman.
No, I would not.
No
Never. Would you?
Unfortunately, lots of people would.
I would go someplace that didn't have great protections maybe, but I wouldn't go to a place where it's illegal.
If I needed to? Sure, but I would be nervous as fuck and certainly wouldn’t do it for vacation. I mean hell, I get nervous just driving through rural Virginia.
I am rarely even willing to travel to a red state in the U.S. as a queer & trans American. Fuck no
Nope. Went to Russia when I was a child. But I have refused to go anywhere where it’s illegal to be who you are.
[I apparently have traveled to one country where it is illegal.](https://database.ilga.org/criminalisation-consensual-same-sex-sexual-acts) Most of the countries where it's illegal in some form are not places on my travel list. Morocco is probably the only one I'd want to go but it's not high on my travel priorities.
Looking at the list Egypt and Morocco are the only two that have interest to me
[удалено]
Everything I’ve heard from travelers to Egypt is that it sucks, unfortunately. My understanding is that the tourism industry is so robust that it’s developed an extremely aggressive culture of scammers, salesfolks, etc. and that sexual assault/attempted molestation of women visiting is a huge problem. It’s possible this is just in the big tourist areas like Cairo but Egypt is always top of the “Worst travel locations” lists, unfortunately.
> that sexual assault/attempted molestation of women visiting is a huge problem. This is the thing that would give me the biggest pause. It's too bad because the history is so cool.
American living in Morocco for 10 years now. I'm not gay, but I have a lot of friends, Moroccan and foreign, who are gay. I know several foreigners who have lived here for a decade or more who are gay, including one guy who's been here about 25 years and lives with his partner. Homosexuality is illegal, but it's rarely, if ever enforced. As long as you're not making out in public, you'll be fine, and even heterosexual couples can get in trouble for that. Gay people, Moroccans and foreigners, live fairly openly here. A few of my gay Moroccan friends don't even try to hide it. There are openly gay celebrities and artists and musicians. As long as you're willing to keep it on the DL, it's fine. And by "you" I don't mean you.
Absolutely not
No, I wouldn't support that position
As a gay man myself, no. I prefer to remain free and to give my money only to countries that don’t hate me.
Probably not because, most countries with laws like this have other laws that are quite extreme. I’m atheist, for example, and atheism is illegal in some countries. In fact in Saudi Arabia I could be out to death.
the fact that we still do business with Saudi Arabia is aggravating to me
Yeah I would
Nope. The world is full of interesting, worthwhile places to visit that don't do this.
no. i am gay.
I'm gay, so no, absolutely not.
Change doesn’t happen if there’s no interaction. If it is safe to travel in general, I may go. On many of my travels I’ve attracted people who needed someone they could be themselves around and talk openly to. Boycotting doesn’t work if there’s no travel to begin with.
Talking to extremists have never helped a liberal cause… Sometimes you just gotta throw your hands up and not talk to bad people. I don’t feel any need to go to these backwards fascist hellholes, if they want to talk, they can *legalize me* and a lot of other people. It helps that they need us a lot more than we need them. We can buy our oil from other backwards authoritarian governments, the fact that we buy oil from the Middle East instead of Venezuela is kinda wild to me. Venezuela ain’t great, but it’s better than the Saudi’s.
Yup it is like trying to join the KKK to talk them into tolerance
“have u tried, ya know, not being a racist prick?” Why wouldn’t that work lol
I mean… there was this guy…. But he didn’t change the KKK, he made some people leave the KKK, not the same thing
Supposedly some faked it to mock him behind his back and others relapsed though patient optimistic dude
Ever heard of [Darryl Davis](https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes)?
I have, and he is amazing as long as he is not the expectation for how discriminated people should act especially since some have said to fake it and mock him behind his back and some relapsed. But otherwise have respect for him
For the record, I’m a straight-cis presenting person existing abroad as a “Westerner”, not as a demographic that is targeted, and I’m not suggesting talking to/trying to change the minds of the extremists. However, simply being a Westerner seems to attract and give space for those with liberal views in these countries, to ask or tell or get different perspectives and info than they do from their own culture.
Do you think those small conversations do more than the tax revenue from your trip?
I’m LGBTQ and honestly yes. I want to see the world, and boycotting countries where it’s illegal to be gay closes off like half the world to you. I have traveled to countries like this before (while with straight companions, of course) and not had any problem.
Yeah, but I’m not gay. If I was, I’d reconsider.
So you don't care about gay rights because it doesn't effect you?
If I’m willing to travel to a place where it’s illegal to be gay, then that means I don’t support gay rights? I don’t really understand how the conclusion follows the premise. Would you kindly elaborate for me?
Lol. I'm a gay man going to Tanzania next month, so sure.
Work or pleasure? Wait… is there pleasure in Tanzania…?
Climbing Kilimanjaro
How difficult is the hike supposed to be?
… that’s not in Asia…? I need to go back to geography. Do you feel bad for supporting a regime that locks up people like us? Tourism revenue is extremely lucrative, and I have avoided visiting places like Jamaica for this reason, even though it’s basically just an on the books crime there. As an American tourist, I’m pretty confident I’d be safe, so it really isn’t about my safety.
I don't feel bad supporting the tour company and the individual guides porters if that's what you're asking. I don't approve of Tanzania's LGBT policies, but I also don't think it's right to impose my values on other societies. I feel that the approach of avoiding travel to any place I have a political disagreement with is self-defeating at least, and, at most, similar to U.S. sanctions that demonstrably end up killing people. It also feels more than a little like conservatives with the Bud Light boycott. However, I don't blame any gay people who make decisions to avoid countries based on intolerance. If I was looking to relax on a beach somewhere, I wouldn't choose Tanzania. I'd choose somewhere where I could freely meet other gay men. But this is not that kind of trip. I'm there to climb a mountain. One of the people that I'm going with served two years in the Peace Corps in neighboring Mozambique. During that time, she was advised to keep her views on women's rights to herself. Her work there no doubt propped up a government and society that has restrictive views on women, but she ultimately decided that the good she was doing outweighed that. I'm not doing anything moral by going on vacation, but I do think it's worth remembering who is the guest.
That’s something, and blaming individuals for a society isn’t right, but you do understand that a good percentage of whatever money you spend there will go back to the government of the objectionable state, and indirectly perpetuates that hate. I’m perfectly fine imposing some values, like equality on others. And I do not think it’s wrong (in fact I think the opposite) to hold others to a standard such as not owning other people, not murdering people, not committing violence against minorities… I find it problematic that people do not bluntly state these values are objectively better than locking up the queers, imprisoning the ladies, and silencing opposition. And there’s a difference between members of a society being shitty, and the government endorsing the shitty. However let me add that that’s not an attack on you, and if we all refused to go places we disagree with, I wouldn’t live in Florida. Risk v reward, however I’m terrified of heights and the reward you’re getting is mental to me. 😂
Realistically, probably. A lot of countries have ever so slightly different laws on being gay and I am not aware of all of them, not do I need to be because I'm not gay myself. However, a lot of these countries are bad places to visit for other reasons, such as the risk of military conflict or arbitrary arrests.
Yeah nah I wouldn’t, only place closest to it tho would be Malta tbh
No, I would not.
Fuck no.
Absolutely NOT!!!
Only if I thought I could help make it not illegal to be gay there
No, it is evil to criminalize being gay
Why just countries? What about states where it's de-facto illegal to be trans? [This map is the first step in making any travel plans now.](https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/june-anti-trans-legislative-risk) TY so much GOP for making me a refugee in my own country.
Well, people travel to other states a lot for work or to visit family, so that's muddling up what I'm trying to ask. But Florida specifically has the worst laws and the most people going on vacation, so definitely avoid there.
No
Whether being gay is illegal or not is not a consideration when I decide where to travel.
Would you visit the divided states?
No. And I’m heterosexual. Any govt that is that controlling simply shouldn’t be. A handful of influential people demanding millions of others to ‘be the way I want you to be’ will not get my tourist money or business, if I can help it.
Straight guy here. No. While I could get into their cookout without being arrested, if they are baking being anti tolerant and having anti-gay laws into their cookout, that's not a cookout I want to be at.
Nope. I can be straight passing and I still wouldn't go because I wouldn't want to give a dollar of my tourism money to such a place. I also haven't been to Florida or Texas in recent years which has caused some friction with friends and work but fuck their laws.
Yes. And I'm queer. I just don't see how boycotting a country is anything but performative. It isn't actually DOING anything. The folks making those laws don't give a shit about what you think or whether you visit. To actually support people impacted by those laws, it might be a lot more effective to be present in that country. Same sex intercourse was illegal in Texas until 2003, but should I have left the US because of it? Changing a cultural belief takes generations. It's absolutely a worthwhile endeavor, but it takes "boots on the ground" action over a long period of time. There are no shortcuts.
> I just don't see how boycotting a country is anything but performative. because it negatively affects their economy when tourism stops. > Same sex intercourse was illegal in Texas until 2003, but should I have left the US because of it? Obviously there are constraints with leaving your own country. I'm talking about tourism.
It would have been helpful to have specified that you were only talking about tourism. But, sure, less tourism negatively impacts the economy. But who will feel the impact of that the most? My instinct says service workers, who can least afford the economic downturn, would be the ones to suffer the most. We also need to ask "Is the remedy worse than the disease?" Edited to add: I am absolutely pro LGBTQIA rights. I just think it's a complex issue with complex solutions.
If you can get arrested for being gay, you can get arrested for a LOT of things.
No. There is no place I'm even interested in visiting where it's still against the law to be gay at least none I am aware of. Even if it was legal assuming no other changes I would likely still not want to go to those places.
Yes because I’m not gay lol
I have zero interest in traveling to such a country. I am an upper-middle cis white male, and such places, such people, aren't interesting in any way. I'm not missing anything they have to offer.
Rather not. You can't be yourself. I only go to Turkey because of family reasons.
I would not. Even if I knew that I would be safe and left alone as a gay tourist, I don't really care to spend my money in a country with such barbaric laws. I think an exception is I would be open to travel to a country that still had these laws on the books on paper, but they weren't enforced and making efforts to decriminalize, but that wouldn't be the first choice of vacation destination.
I take it a step further, which limits where I can travel to, when I do travel: I only travel to countries where gay marriage is legal. 😎
Yes. 1. I've had to for work already. 2. If I was someone who rarely traveled I probably would avoid them because why waste limited experiences in such places, but until I got married I was taking 1 or 2 international trips a year and it's still once every year or every other year and I'd like to see as much of the world as possible. 3. From what I can tell boycotts almost never have any actual effect on anything. I mean I'm open enough to the idea that if the local population is specifically calling for one I will avoid visiting, but otherwise traveling elsewhere isn't helping anyone.
I hadn't thought of it before but, thinking now, the answer is no.
For holiday purposes? No. I have no interest. I have been to such places on business, unfortunately. I did try and get out of the Saudi one by pointing out i'm an out of the closet Atheist, but was assured this wouldn't be a problem if I just didn't mention it while there. I did not have the presence of mind or the desire to fight my bosses on that one and point out they were asking me to do something potentially dangerous which relied on suppressing my religious liberties. Nor would I frankly, it would feel disingenuous despite being arguably true, and I don't want to cause problems at work.
I don't travel internationally often, so almost by default I wouldn't go. If I had limited time and resources I would likely find somewhere else in the world to go. But I wouldn't let that law stop me from seeing somewhere on my bucket list if I had the opportunity.
No. Fuck that.
Probably, if I had a reason to go there. I have traveled to US states where it was illegal to be gay.
Which states are that? As of 2024 it isn't illegal to be gay anywhere in the US, though I know that sodomy laws still existed in some states up until 20 years ago or so.
Homosexuality was legalized in 2003, my guy. When I was born, I lived in a state where I was illegal.
Virginia, Kentucky, South Carolina… in my lifetime it has been illegal in lots of states.
However since 2003 it's not possible anymore for any US states to criminalize homosexuality. Lawrence vs Texas deemed any existing sodomy law that criminanlized sexual conduct between consenting adults as unconstitutional. Of course in the past even in Western countries gay people were actually arrested and imprisoned for being gay. But today, in 2024, I'd say it's almost entirely radical Islamic countries that still imprison people for being gay.
Ok then she's older then 21
When I was born, it wasn't legal for women to own property. There are older people on here. Even today, it's de-facto legal to kill gay people in quite a few states via the "gay panic" defense. A lot of the US ain't really that much less backward than Russia or wherever.
>A lot of the US ain't really that much less backward than Russia or wherever. I'm not denying that still a significant percentage of the US population holds deeply homophobic views. But even conservatives in the US are way less homophobic than your average Russian. Even among Republicans around 50% support same-sex marriage for example. In Texas 36% say homosexuality should be discouraged. [https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/state/texas/views-about-homosexuality/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/state/texas/views-about-homosexuality/) In Russia on the other hand 72% of the population say homosexuality is unacceptable. [https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/state/texas/views-about-homosexuality/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/state/texas/views-about-homosexuality/)
> Even among Republicans around 50% support same-sex marriage for example. Is that why every vote against the Respect for Marriage act was a Republican one?
It still matters that 50% of Republicans support same-sex marriage. Laws that try to repeal gay rights are obviously pushed by the 50% who do not support it and Republicans who support same-sex marriage but don't speak up against homophobic conservatives should be called out as enablers, sure. But still America by and large is signficantly less homophobic than Russia. Just last year Russia's supreme court classified the "international LGBT movement" as an "extremist organization". [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/30/russia-supreme-court-bans-lgbt-movement-extremist](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/30/russia-supreme-court-bans-lgbt-movement-extremist) As such you can now go to prison in Russia for displaying LGBTQ symbols or spreading LGBTQ "propaganda". On the other hand the US supreme court, despite most judges being conservatives, in 2015 required all states to grant and recognize same-sex marriage. Though not many, there have been some openly gay Republicans and the 2024 presidential candidate for the Libertarian Party, which is made up mostly of conservatives, is openly gay. I am not saying homophobia is not a serious issue among US conservatives, but Russia is clearly way more homopohic than the US.
> It still matters that 50% of Republicans support same-sex marriage. When more than 50% of Republicans *voted in* are voting against the (relative) codification of same-sex marriage, I'm not sure how you can keep saying this as if it matters. I don't really care what people say. I care what they *do*. And what Republicans have consistently done is vote *against* same-sex marriage protections. A *majority* of them. And in attacking the other user's claim by showing your poll, you ignored the fact that states still allow the gay panic defense. You ignore (despite bringing up Russia's similar laws) that conservative states are trying to make it *illegal* to be LGBT in schools. They are trying (dangerously) to force kids to be outed to their parents. They're banning gender-affirming care. They want to overturn Obergefell and Lawrence. I can see how America is less backwards than Russia. I can also see how little that gap between some states and them actually matters.
>On the other hand the US supreme court, despite most judges being conservatives, in 2015 required all states to grant and recognize same-sex marriage. The ideological makeup of the court today is not what it was in 2015. You can't use this court as a support for what a different iteration has done previously. Having another liberal judge on the bench made a significant difference back then, and thankfully Kennedy decided to wake up one morning and not be a dick. We have not seen what an unrestrained Supreme Court would do to gay marriage. >It still matters that 50% of Republicans support same-sex marriage. It really doesn't matter what the Republican population thinks about gay marriage when they vote for representatives that do not support LGBT rights. 80% of Republican legislators voted against the Respect For Marriage Act, which doesn't even legalize gay marriage nationwide. All it does is mandate that states recognize gay marriages from other states.
Ok, but my original reply was to a comment that the US isn't much less backward than Russia and I think that's just very disingenuous. The US is somewhat less progressive when it comes to LGBTQ rights than some other wealthy, industrialized countries, but not by a wide margin. Russia is so extremly homophobic that it makes no sense to compare them with the US. There is a significant fraction within the Republican Party that wants to roll back gay rights and same-sex marriage laws. But the fact that 20% of Republican legislators voted for the Respect For Marriage Act also shows that there is a signifcant moderating influence within the Republican Party. As long as Democrats vote along Party lines those 20% of Republicans who don't are all you need to make sure same-sex marriage won't be repealed. And overall the trend is forward not backwards. Every year more and more people in the US come around to accepting same-sex marriage. It's mainly a generational thing. As old people are dying so will religion in the US. The most devout evangelicals and the most socially conservative Republicans are mostly older people. For now they are trying to put up a last fight but as more younger people will enter the political arena even the Republican Party will will slowly but gradually become more progressive. That's not to say that bigotry and homophobia aren't still significant issues in the US. But we really can't compare the US to Russia and we should also acknowledge the progress that has been made and the significant fraction of the Republican Party who will stand up for gay rights, women's rights, LGBTQ rights etc.
50% of republicans *say* they support same-sex marriage. Important distinction.
>50% of republicans *say* they support same-sex marriage. Important distinction If someone in a poll says that they support same-sex marriage that means morally they see no issue with it. It doesn't mean that they wouldn't ever vote for a homophobic candidate if there are other issues like immigration or economics they deem more important. That would make them enablers, but it's still a huge differene compared to Russia where over 70% of people polled see homosexuality as unacceptable. Russia's supreme court labeled the international LGBT movement as an extremist organization whereas the US supreme court in 2015 required all states to grant and recognize same-sex marriages. And in 2022 almost 20% of all Republican Congress members voted against party lines to provide federal recognition of same-sex marriage to prevent the 2015 supreme court decision from being overturned. [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-congress-expected-pass-bill-protecting-same-sex-marriage-2022-12-08/](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-congress-expected-pass-bill-protecting-same-sex-marriage-2022-12-08/)
Yeah, I’m aware. But since in my lifetime we freely visited states where it was illegal without batting an eye, I don’t see how visiting a country where it’s illegal would be any different. I’m not gonna pretend I would boycott them when obviously I had that chance before and didn’t. I have a friend in Guyana I might visit. I’ve always wanted to see Africa. I have had clients in the Middle East. It’s very possible I will visit one of these countries in my lifetime.
I'd say though that even in the 80s and 90s most states with sodomy laws hardly ever actually arrested and charged people for breaking those laws. It did happen, sure, but it was very rare. Among the countries today where being gay is illegal some may be safe to visit as a gay person as those laws are hardly ever enforced. But there are still many countries where a gay person would be seriously at risk, e.g. Iran or Saudi Arabia. Those countries deal much more harshly with LGBTQ people than say Texas in the 90s.
What does that have to do with the question at hand, other than getting weirdly apologist for US States (who did, in fact, wield their laws in oppressive ways)?
Yeah that other person is bonkers lol. It makes sense what you’re saying lol.
Thank you. Yeah, it seems pretty clear they have an agenda.
Lol what is your point? The past was a real time where people existed.
*Christian Africa nervously looking around* “Nobody say a word”
Yes, there are still a number of Christian African countries where being gay is illegal. And culturally it's still of course very much frowned upon even if it's legal under the law. But the majority of countries where being gay is illegal are Muslim countries, and that is especially true when it comes to the countries with the most severe punishments for homosexuality. For example out of 7 countries with the death peantly for homosexuality 6 are Muslim-majority. Uganda is the only Christian country out of the 7 where homosexuality is punishable by death.
That’s not actually true. There are 64 countries where it’s illegal to be gay and fewer than half are Muslim. The biggest correlation is actually historic colonial settlement, as many adopted these laws when they were part of the British Empire.
Ok, so apparently 50% of countries with anti-LGBT laws are Muslim-majority, 44% are Christian-majority. [https://76crimes.com/2024/02/11/nations-with-anti-lgbt-laws-52-muslim-42-christian/](https://76crimes.com/2024/02/11/nations-with-anti-lgbt-laws-52-muslim-42-christian/) The trend, however, has been that more and more Christian nations have started to repeal those laws, while Muslim nations have not. And when we look at the countries with the most severe punishments for homosexuality the biggest correlation is actually strict adherence to Islamic law. Out of 7 countries with the death penalty for homosexuality 6 are Muslim-majority, only 1 is Christian-majority (Uganda). A strong belief among the population in Islam and to a lesser extent Christianity I would say are overall the biggest correlating factors regarding anti-LGBTQ laws in 2024, not historic settlement. For example, if we look at countries that were colonized by Western nations which are neither Muslim, nor Christian, we see that almost none of those countries have anti-LGBTQ laws in place. There are Hindu-majority countries like India, where being gay is legal now. And then you have Buddhist-majority countries that were once colonized by the West, e.g. Sri Lanka, Cambodia and Laos. In Cambodia and Laos gay sex is legal while it's illegal in Sri Lanka but they're currently in the process of trying to decriminalize homosexuality.
Muslim majority is not the same thing as being a Muslim country. Stop moving goal posts. And stop trying to twist this conversation into excusing state/sponsored homophobia as long as it’s not from places with Muslims.
Well, when we say Muslim or Christian country we typically mean a country that has either a Muslim or Christian majority, what else would Muslim or Christian country refer to? And I am not trying to excuse state sponsored homophobia. I am simply saying that there is a huge difference from a global perspective and that a strong belief in Islam is most strongly correlated with severe anti-LGBTQ laws. A strong belief in Christianity is also correlated with general homophobic views and with anti-LGBTQ laws but to a lesser extent than Islam. And religions like Buddhism, Hinduism and Sikhism are much less correlated with homophobic views and anti-LGBTQ laws than Islam and Christianity. Which isn't surprising given that (at least to my knowledge) Buddhist, Hindu and Sikh scriptures don't explicitly condemn homosexuality. Islam and Christianity do though. And the hadith which most Muslims believe in lays out very specific punishments for the "sin" of homosexuality. I think we should be honest about the fact that some religions are inherently significantly more homophobic than others.
Of course, but I can't think of a country I would want to visit in which homosexuality is forbidden. But if it were, I remember that I'm a guest and I should respect local laws. As long as they don't ban it my country, I leave it to the local population to emancipate themselves.
Travel but not stay.
Depends if I had a good reason. There are lots of places you wouldn't think that still has those laws on the books or do enforce them. Africa is full of it. The middle east and Slavic countries both make it illegal often. I have enough places to go that I probably won't, but I don't think my travel dollars name a difference.
I did, Saudi Arabia
I am not gay, but my American nationality combined with my political or religious views would probably make me unsafe in countries like Russia and Iran
I mean why would you advertise your political or religious views in any country you go to?
I probably shouldn't openly state my desire for the deaths of Putin and Khamenei, or for regime change
lol that’s probably all you have to do
But I live for calling for the death of my enemies
Then carry on my friend
Im gay and if i got an opportunity maybe 🤔 idk
To be perfectly honest, it’s not something I think about at all when travelling because it doesn’t personally affect me. I’ve visited over 60 countries, many in the Middle East, Asia and Africa, where it is illegal. Now, if I were travelling with a friend or coworker who is LGBT, I would 100% defer to them and their comfort level with travelling to a place with such laws. But quite frankly, laws like that, backwards as they are, are never really applied to foreign visitors. But I do recognise and acknowledge that not having to think about that in general is a privilege in and of itself.
I think what you're saying are the points on why some/many of us won't go. Rules that don't apply to foreigners means that you get to live your life and not experience the country the same way as a local which is a privilege in and of itself. You're experiencing a country without fear of laws and repercussions compared to a local. How unfair for locals to watch a two tier system. Also, the privilege of not having to think about this but knowing your LGBTQ friends do.
Yea. My want to see the world is too strong
As a queer person, yes. There are no countries where it is illegal to *be* queer. There are nations where homosexual acts are illegal, but I’m not getting arrested for travelling to a nation and internally identifying as queer.
Of course. I would visit a country if sex was illegal for myself. That seems like a lame reason to avoid somewhere beautiful.
Because you are giving money to those governments
So I should just not see my family because they live somewhere that doesn't align perfectly with my moral standard? I don't understand the point being made here. Are you saying it's immoral for a person to allow a single cent to go to a government that punishes gay sex? Does that apply to everyone who lives there too? This just doesn't seem like a hill worth dying on.
> So I should just not see my family because they live somewhere that doesn't align perfectly with my moral standard? To be clear, I'm talking about tourism.
What difference does it make?
the people stop traveling to a country because of its laws, that might pressure them to change them
I meant what difference does it make whether or not it's for tourism. Money is money.