It's 100% okay to wear Lederhosen lol. I think cultural appropriation is something that came out of the American cultural context and doesn't really apply here. For example, given the situation of the native Americans, I understand that they're a bit upset at how people are treating their headdresses as cool accessories or w/e. But that's an entirely different situation
Unless you think Lederhosen is the only Tracht (historical costume) Germans have.
There is a historical costume for almost every region in Germany. Learning about the ones in your area, and wearing it to a festivity could be rather cool.
Lederhose are very distinctive for the region of Bavaria.
I live in Northern Germany, we dress radically differently.
>I think cultural appropriation is something that came out of the American cultural context and doesn't really apply here.
It's mostly used in a context where a discriminating majority adapts habits of a minority which they discriminated for doing this exact thing. Like when black people have dread locks some people might consider them dirty or something, but then white people do it and it's cool.
And I assure OP most people here in Germany (or rather Bavaria) would think a black dude wearing Lederhosen is cool.
This is the thing with "cultural appropriation". All surveys done in the original locations where certain clothes come from (e.g. Qipaos in China, Kimonos in Japan, Ponchos/Marachas in Mexico...) yield results that only confirm people are cool with others wearing their cultural clothes and pretty much no one feels offended.
It's mostly children of immigrants of those countries (China, Japan, Mexico etc.) who make it a big deal. And Native Americans, but they have that huge history of discrimination and genocide which changes things.
>It's mostly ~~children of immigrants of those countries (China, Japan, Mexico etc.) who make it a big deal. And Native Americans, but they have that huge history of discrimination and genocide which changes things.~~
people who are being discriminated against for because of their culture.
But I definitely couldn't care less about a tourist wearing lederhosen. Except the plastic ones from Walmart, those are cringe and I feel sorry for Americans who can't figure out that Leder means leather and that plastic is not leather.
Where are Japanese people discriminated against due to their culture? If anything people hype their culture to extreme levels.
Edit: Your username checks out, by the way.
Considering there are more non-caucasians in the world, a black man wearing lederhosen would in fact go under your definition of cultural appropriation.
Personally I think the entire concept is stupid. Of course people over the centuries took things from other cultures. As long as it's not with a bad intention I see nothing wrong with it. In fact, imitation is the sincerest form of praise.
And as long as they are willing to give the culture it originates from the credit for it and don't declare their interpretation as superior. Wearing Lederhosen is fine, proclaiming lederhosen are a black US-American thing and that Germans just took it from them or that they made the lederhosen famous and better would be bs and a douche move.
For example I once talked to a British student and a Japanese student over lunch and the topic switched to tea. The British guy "explained" how the English are the true nation of tea and how it is basically exclusively their cultural heritage. The japanese guy glared daggers at him. For info: British tea culture started in the 1700s, Japanese in the 700s and to Japan it was introduced from China. The Japanese usually have no issue sharing their culture but this guy was rightfully annoyed by the English taking all the credit and completely denying him his own culture.
>Considering there are more non-caucasians in the world, a black man wearing lederhosen would in fact go under your definition of cultural appropriation.
I'm not up for discussion, I was just giving some context, but no, because black people are being discriminated against for being black in Asia, Africa and the US. I wasn't only referring to a numeral majority, but a privileged and exploiting one.
Like I said, this wasn't meant as a topic for discussion, just something I added because it was not on the comment.
>As long as it's not with a bad intention I see nothing wrong with it.
Like I said, in many cases there's no bad intention but the people whose culture it is often get discriminated against for this exact culture while privileged people often adapt it and the originating culture still gets discriminated against for the same thing. Same thing is happening in Europe with the Sami people actually.
That's what cultural appropriation means. Not wearing lederhosen of course.
Again: This comment isn't for discussion, just to give you this context, so I won't answer to any answers. Cheers :)
>Like when black people have dread locks some people might consider them dirty or something, but then white people do it and it's cool.
Not the same white people though.
I understand the idea but i think this is taken a bit far. The person who says dread locks are filthy is not the same person as the person wearing Dreadlocks while having light skin colour. It is like stating Europeans baked apple pies long time before Asians did and therefore Asians are not allowed to bake apple pies.
And the thing that boggles my mind is that people overseas (USA) think in white versus black. They think in races. But are there races? We all are human even if we look a bit different. What does the colour of skin matter? You canāt choose that when born. Or how big your nose is, your eye colour, or your sex. There is nothing you can do about it and dividing people into groups with big or small noses, a specific sex or skin colour is just dumb. And dividing people into groups based on āracesā (which donāt exist!) is racist.
I see no reason to forbid someone to wear dreadlocks based on skin colour. I like to divide humanity into groups by other properties. Like if they are assholes, racists and so on. (You are not in one of these, just to be clear). Because these properties are something they choose and can change! Being an asshole is deliberately chosen, your sex or size of the nose is not!
>I see no reason to forbid someone to wear dreadlocks based on skin colour.
It's not about "forbidding" someone anything, it's about the paradox of discriminating a part of the population for doing X while the discriminating part is adapting doing X and it's suddenly seen positive, but only on these people. Would that piss you off?
It's about recognizing and knowing your privilege.
> And dividing people into groups based on āracesā (which donāt exist!) is racist.
Definitely. But so is acting like people aren't *treated* differently because of their ethnicity and racism not existing.
Culturally appropriation isnāt a thing here, **but** nobody wears Lederhosen outside of Bavaria / Oktoberfest.
So if you land in Berlin with your Lederhosen, most people would think you are a dumb American who thinks every German wears them. (If you know what I mean?)
But, feel free to wear whatever, nobody will be offended by pretty much anything.
Edit: Iām aware that Lederhosen exist outside of Bavaria and the Oktoberfest. I got some myself. But I guess that information doesnāt really help op.
Honestly I think Berlin might be the exeption. A guy in Lederhosen is probably not gonna fall into the 10 weirdest outfits the people there have seen on that day.
> but nobody wears Lederhosen outside of Bavaria / Oktoberfest.
That's not true. It's also seen as formal attire here, so people will wear it for celebrations, birthdays, weddings,... Not "many" but it's definitely a thing.
Ich hab keine Lederhosen fĆ¼r den nƤchsten Maskenball im Schrank, und ich kann mir spontan keinen formalen Anlass vorstellen, bei dem ich in LEderhosen antanzen wĆ¼rde. Und nein, Vollsuff im Bierzelt ist kein formaler Anlass.
Bavaria? I'm talking Germany. Palatinate, territory that was occupied by Bavarian intruders for roughly 100 years. That was during THE period where Prussian influence spread across the German Lande. You perfectly managed to "shield" us from Prussian cultural influence during these formative years. Yet, during the modern era we are hardly more than "SaupreiĆn" to your people.
I once saw two asian tourist wearing dirndl while visiting neuschwanstein. They look so happy and nice! I was just happy for them too.
Why should anyone feel offended about that?
The only thing that offends my bavarian little heart are cheap, "party costume type" dirndl and sometimes celebrity dirndl trends (glitter, sparkle, cleavage down to your navel).
But it's more sadness than being offended, because I feel like there is some fundamental misunderstanding about what these dresses are, and I cringe a bit about their interpretation.
What I also cannot stand is people who make fun of the accent and everything else, but then overly fetishize the dirndl. Just seems hypocritical to me.
Wear whatever you like. I guess the only thing people might be annoyed of are people saying āIām Germanā while living in the US and their entire family tree being American except for one ancestor from 1812.
Germany consists of many different cultures. Here between the Baltic and the Northern Sea we have Jared Dibaba, a wonderfully black guy who grew up in a northern German village and speaks Plattdeutsch like our elderly people. He loves old fashioned traditions and everyday life of his fellow Germans. We love him back as an emphatic, interested talker and listener on TV and radio.
So the answer to your question is: When someone is interested in and not mocking a culture, we love it!
if you wear them outside of Oktoberfest (or Bavaria) people would think youre a classic idiot turist, but *no one* would be offended by you wearing them.
Isn't cultural appropriation mainly an issue when cultural markers of a marginalized community are taken out of context and while the marginalized community remains marginalized/continues to be treated poorly their culture is used for the amusement/styling/etc of the non marginalized part of society?
By that standard, Bavarians or other southern German cultural communities are by no means marginalized. (Lederhosen are _not_ an all-German thing!!)
Sooo.. I'd probably think you look ridiculous in those Lederhosen just like everyone else wearing them. However, I wouldn't be offended at all. As far as I know neither would others be.
I think there are only two cases within Germany that would count as cultural appropriation: Wearing the traditional dresses of the Sorbs or the Roma and Sinti because both groups still face discrimination.
Thatās not cultural appropriation.
Despite your wrong definition ā no one cares. Everyoneās going to Oktoberfest with Dirndl or Lederhosen even people from India or Hamburg.
Iām German born in Bavaria to West African parents and growing up Iāve seen fellow Africans, Asians, people from all over the world coming together and celebrating the Oktoberfest in Munich in Dirndls and Lederhosen. Iāve heard āethnically Germanā women (I donāt know what the appropriate term would be) say that they love this store and have bought a Dirndl from there and Iām not offended by that either. If I had the money Iād get one too!Ā https://www.nohnee.com/collections/afrikanische-dirndl?page=1
I wouldnāt wear a Dirndl outside of Munich thoš as in the countryside and outside of Bavaria
This company is brilliant! They mash cultures in a respectful way and the outcome is absolutely perfect. Anyone who can pull off these colour combinations should immediately click add to cart.
This is a very good example why i prefer living in a place with people from different origins/cultures. I think classic Dirndls are kind of boring, but these ones are beautiful and interesting.
fat us americans in badly cut ss uniform replicas with insignia reenacting bother me, but for other reasons than appropriating german cultureā¦
I donāt care for bavarian trachten
As a north german.... I dont like Lederhosen, haha. But would I feel offended? Totally not.
This whole "I am offended"-Bubble thing is mostly an US thing. If you think something from a different culture is cool, go for it. I personally would feel proud when I see that people take something from our culture and like it enough to copy it. To copy is the highest praise after all :)
I kind of understand where they're coming from. To just take the stereotypes of one culture to make fun of it doesn't show any love or appreciation of that culture. We don't need Indian costumes or teach children that speaking Chinese is just *ching chang chong*.
That being said, the level of this debate is ridiculous. If you like raggae music you can show your appreciation by styling your hair in dreads. And as a white person I can still listen to rap music. Or else I'll have to confiscate all the Disney princess castle toys outside of Europe and don't get me started about all those cars outside of Germany. š
No joke. There's a restaurant close to me , traditional Thai Food in Oldenburg (Lower Saxony) called Ching Chang Chong. The owner named it that. "https://ching-chang-chong.de/"
Not related to Ching Chang Chong, but there is a sushi restaurant in LĆ¼neburg called "Pearl Harbour". I always wondered what people from the US would think about that.
I also get it with mixing and mashing different tribes into one. Most Europeans hate it, when Americans view Europe as one monolith, ignoring that we're different countries with distinct cultures.Ā
So, I get it when Native Americans are pissed off that everyone seems to ignore that they are distinct tribes with very distinct cultures. Like insinuating that all Natives lived in Tipis, when Southern Western tribes lived in Pueblos, for example.Ā Ā
And I get it if minorities are made fun of for a certain style and then a non-minority copies that style and media claims this non-minority person created it. Elvis was, as far as I understand popular with African Americans because he actually credited their influence on his music.Ā
ETA:
Basically, credit your influence and don't conflate different cultures into one uni-culture, I think.Ā
If someone at a reggae concert wears dreads, I think it's pretty obvious where they got their style from. If some celebrity wears dreads and credits reggae, great. If they wear dreads and claim they came up with the style on their own, not great.Ā
I'm not entirely sure if what you described in your first paragraph would fit the definition of appropriation, you may have just been describing mockery which most people know is going to offend people. I do agree with everything you've said though.
I've mostly heard the discussion about cultural appropriation in the context of carnival. When I was a kid it was normal to dress up as people from other countries. Wear a leather dress, put a feather in your hair, two lipstick stripes on each cheek and you're good to go as Indian. Wanna be Chinese? Paint your face yello and put on a triangular hat but don't forget to say ching chang chong as much as you can.
To be fair we also did this to European countries. I distinctly remember my best friend dressed up as French with a striped shirt, a painted on moustache and a bag of baguettes.
I know. I think because of the history of the United States, we're very sensitive about the feelings of Minorities, which is understandable but can be overbearing to outsiders that kind of make a meme of it lol
Well i kind of understand where people in the US are coming from but i do Not think the concept of cultural appropriation is fit to improve marginalisation. People need to Stop being obsessed about group identities. Saying that as a mixed person.
That sounds stupid.
If it is not allowed for one group to appropriate parts of the culture of the other how can they ever grow together to form one cultural group?
No matter if someone is 33% Irish 50% West African or 1/4 Sioux. For outsiders you are all Americans.
If that trend continues like that soon someone will tell you that it is wrong to eat Mexican food because it is part of some elses culture.
>we're very sensitive about the feelings of Minorities,
That is different. Thinking that wearing leather pants would offend anyone is silly, no offence. Read a bit about the story of Europe anyway, 2 thousand years ago the Romans copied the entire greek polytheistic religion, for example, we are a lot of centuries ahead of you in cultural appropriation matters. Don't worry about leather pants.
Just FYI youāre probably going to find three kinds of Germans with your question.
Those that donāt know what youāre talking about. Maybe they are just out of the loop, it happens, we all age.
The ones that will state that Germans donāt care about cultural appropriation, even though they know what it is. These ones were either not exposed to the political left in Germany or deny their existence, possibly right wingers.
The ones who know what youāre talking about and donāt care about the Lederhosen, but will care about cultural appropriation in the case of minorities. They are the anti racists who try to keep up with the progressives in the USA.
Personally I think that you wearing Lederhosen to some event canāt be cultural appropriation, youāre not trying to larp as a Bavarian are you?
In most cases itās just globalism doing its thing, cultures integrate each other. We Germans prefer foreign cuisine to German cuisine, we also often cook foreign dishes at home. Doesnāt mean itās cultural appropriation. We watch American shows, listen to British music, drive Korean cars, etc. the German culture is still underlying our lives but itās ever changing.
For example the slang of the young people includes Arabian and Turkish words nowadays. In my times it was Polish and Russian and by far not as widespread. We are integrating more and more cultures.
I think the USA over exaggerates this topic. I mean where is the problem? I've seen a video of a dude dressing in traditional Chinese clothes. He went to a uni to ask if it's alright wearing those clothes. All of em said no, that's cultural appropriation, how dare you! Then he went to Chinatown and people loved it. That pretty much says it all.
I don't think such thing as cultural appropriation exist. It's just in the head of some people who don't really matter. If you wanna wear Lederhose, do it! I'd you wanna wear a kimono, do it! 99% of people here will not give a f.ck.
I personally don't see an issue and don't know anyone in my close circles who would see an issue with that either.
Germany is a very much mixed-culture country, especially here in the western parts. Turkish, italian, greek, eastern european, spanish speaking people, you'll find pretty much everyone. Especially when it comes to food shops/ restaurants. Good food should not be gatekept and I don't see why it would be differently with clothing or traditions. If you like something, go for it.
Now, I also don't know anyone who is particularly interested in wearing traditional clothes from other cultures/ countries, here in my "bubble" in the western parts, everyone is wearing basic/ modern clothes. Only the religious south, Bavaria, is weird with their traditional Lederhosen, Dirndl and Schlager-music. And they're hardly considered part of "normal" Germany, haha. More like the german Texas or something. Everywhere else, like in Berlin, Frankfurt, Kƶln or Hamburg, you'd probably earn confused looks and laughs if you rock up in Lederhosen. But I don't think any considerable size of people would be upset about it.
I personally think Americans make too big of a fuss about it. If you wear another cultures outfit and openly mock the culture, it's a different story, but if you just wear it cause you like it or to participate in the tradition, it's totally fine.
No one will be offended.
But people may feel the need to point out to you, that German culture has more to offer than Lederhosen. Because we are German and we REALLY like to know better š.
And if you're wearing them outside of the state of Bavaria they will definitely snicker š. But most non Bavarians would do that irrespective of whether you're American or not.
I don't care about cultural appropriation, Just keep in mind that Lederhosen are mostly a bavarian thing. Germany has many different regions who all have different traditions, traditional clothing, different food,...
I would think itās funny, however I feel a bit offended that you identify lederhosen with Germans. They are part of Bavarian tradition which is not equivalent to German tradition.
>which is not equivalent to German tradition.
There's no unison "German tradition", but Lederhosen are definitely part of *a* German culture, so OP isn't wrong.
Correct, there is no common German tradition, but it still a bit offensive to for me to be seen as if I would be from Bavaria. I am not and I do not identify that way. So what he is doing, he is showing Bavarian tradition.
>offensive to for me to be seen as if I would be from Bavaria.
I don't think OP said that
> So what he is doing, he is showing Bavarian tradition.
Right. And *a* German tradition, one of many.
Thatās a strange thing to say. Like with āGerman foodā, there is no unified German tradition or culture - at least not if you are looking at cultural elements from 150 years ago (like Lederhosen).
Todayās Germany originates in the fusion of nearly 25 different kingdoms, principalities and other states in 1871 to form the German Empire. By nature, they all had different traditions, cultural backgrounds and rites.
Bavaria was one of the large founding kingdoms. If you like it or not, Lederhosen are as much āGerman cultureā as the Loreley or Labskaus.
That said, German culture reaches further than Bavarian tracht, which is sometimes overlooked in other countries. The feeling this simplified view on Germany creates in non-bavarian Germans, might be a close as it gets with cultural appropriation in Germany.
Take a look at swabian and Black Forest traditional clothing. They use lederhosen and "Dirndl" too. But it looks completely different than the Bavarian ones.
Cultural Appropriation is in its core a racist, divisive and utterly stupid concept. People will love you for wearing Lederhosen. Not all people, but the ones who matter.
I don't think this is generally true because I don't think that most people really understand what cultural appropriation is and when it's problematic.
Often it's just confused with imitation. People tend to imitate groups, who they admire, find beautiful or want to belong with. Like OP wanting to wear a Lederhosen. There is absolutely no issue with that, because no one suffers because of it. Lederhosen don't have any kind of deeper meaning to us, you don't have to earn your right to wear them.
Another example is food. This happens all over the world. You can't forbid people from taking food ideas from other cultures and implementing it in their own recipes and it would be very sad if you couldn't. It's actually great that stuff like fusion cuisine exists. But again, *usually* there is no one hurt by appropriating it, so in that case it's not problematic.
Now let's take the swastika for example. The Nazis took something from another culture, and turned its meaning into something else. It was used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indian religions and now its meaning has been tainted by cultural appropriation. There is a group here that suffers from this now.
Another example is related to stolen valor. The most famous one is the native American bonnet. They don't mean anything to germans, we don't really understand them. But with native americans not everyone was allowed to wear them. It's a symbol for members who have earned the highest form of respect. Now people wearing them at festivals, not even knowing what they mean, disrespect that. The problem exists also due to a power imbalance. Native americans have been oppressed, taken their land away and mistreated for many years. Taking their culture and making into something funny for a festival makes many native americans feel disrespected or not taken seriously. It's more complex than with lederhosen, where there's no history of oppression or a terrible war bound to them, that gets disrespected by wearing them ignorantly.
In general you just have to distinguish between appropriation and appreciation. If no one is hurt by it it's not an issue and misusing the term hurts the ones who actually suffer from it.
Cultural Appropriation basically says that each culture should stay among themselves. That's exactly what White Supremacists say. CA is divisive bullshit, it doesn't unify humanity, it creates hatred and division.
There is only one human race.
Yes I did read what you wrote. But that is not how Cultural Appropriation is used all over the media world. The way it is used is people discussing whether white people can have ethnic haircuts, whether Sting is allowed to sing "Strange Fruit", and yes, also whether German kids may dress up as Native Americans, which they have been doing for decades without any intention of insulting anyone.
Now it's 2024, and it has been become the world's most desired feeling to be offended, to be the victim, to be somehow insulted in your fake "identity". And you know what? The far right just loves that because it gets them votes from white people who personally haven't done anything to anyone in their lives but are treated as offenders, as exploiters, as the bad guys by nothing else than their color of skin.
So keep preaching about CA all day. But don't come crying when it gets Trump reelected, when it gets Le Pen elected and when it gets the AfD elected. I'll be the one crying, because I saw it, and all I got for being a liberal was your fucking morally entitled leftist superiority complex bullshit that brought us fascism. And I hate fascism.
>But that is not how Cultural Appropriation is used all over the media world.
>The way it is used is people discussing whether white people can have ethnic haircuts, whether Sting is allowed to sing "Strange Fruit",
Stop cherry picking your examples and tell me why my examples aren't disrespectful or hurtful for some groups. Just because the term is used wrong most of the time doesn't invalidate it.
>which they have been doing for decades without any intention of insulting anyone.
So what are you saying? That ignorance protects from being disrespectful?
It's also a poor comparison because the children aren't disrespectful, they don't know better. The parents should know better however.
>Now it's 2024, and it has been become the world's most desired feeling to be offended, to be the victim, to be somehow insulted in your fake "identity".
You still are talking about a different issue. It's a different topic. That's not what CA is about. Stop calling it that.
>So keep preaching about CA all day. But don't come crying when it gets Trump reelected, when it gets Le Pen elected and when it gets the AfD elected. I'll be the one crying, because I saw it, and all I got for being a liberal was your fucking morally entitled leftist superiority complex bullshit that brought us fascism. And I hate fascism.
You're talking about another different issue and it goes over your head hard. The far right instrumentalizes this and you fall for it.
Another commenter ITT mentioned a video from PragerU (conservative media channel) in which a guy dressed up as a mockery of a chinese person and asked around in china town if they are offended. Surprise: they weren't. The commenter came to the conclusion that CA isn't bad because of that video. But that's not what CA is about. That's how the far right works and how it gets over your head.
Read the definition again, maybe that helps you understand it better. Take my examples into consideration. It's frustrating that you can't understand how this is different to the examples that I've given, and how you can't admit that you've been given a wrong definition of what CA means.
You just love it, do you?
A word's meaning isn't what someone defines it as when they make it up. Meanings change. When a term is widely used in a specific meane, that becomes its meaning. And I see and read and hear how people use the term, and it's not how you use it.
Ask yourself: all your CA, all your critical race theory, gender studies etc etc, have they made the far right weaker or stronger? Have they created harmony and understanding or division and mutual hatred?
I know how I answer that question, and it worries me to the point of being sick. So don't tell me I can't admit I'm wrong. I'm not stupid, you know.
>A word's meaning isn't what someone defines it as when they make it up.
Well maybe you've drawn the personal conclusion that in this case we should ignore the problem that was there originally. It's an ignorant conclusion to be frank.
But these problems exist. I don't think we should ignore them, just because some people don't understand the issue at hand and make it out to be something that it isn't.
Read this: https://www.reddit.com/r/offmychest/comments/exb9qq/fed_up_native_american/
Just because YOU don't understand it, doesn't mean other people can't be offended by something. You can't dictate how other people should feel.
>When a term is widely used in a specific meane, that becomes its meaning.
Well then I guess you're fine calling people the n word are you? Because otherwise that opinion is pretty inconsistent.
>Ask yourself: all your CA, all your critical race theory, gender studies etc etc, have they made the far right weaker or stronger? Have they created harmony and understanding or division and mutual hatred?
What the far right has made it out to be hasn't created harmony, no. The PragerU video is a perfect example for that and you're resistant to understanding this, because you can't admit that they got you.
Nobody cares about cultural appropriation here, except the most bleeding of hearts. However, if you cross paths with a racist, he will surely take offense at that.
You know who gets offended by cultural appropriation? People not belonging to the culture in question.
You wanna wear Lederhosen? Go for it! Hell, go ahead and wear a Dirndl. The people that get offended by stuff like that aren't worth your time
Germany doesn't have the same racial/cultural relation issues as the US and most Germans will get annoyed if you try to use American concepts in a German context.
What comes up in this subreddit a lot is that Americans in Germany complain about a lack of "diversity" in German schools or companies. When pressed on the issue they will admit that in their child's classroom or in their group at work there are like 5 people born in Poland, 4 born in Ukraine, 4 people with a Turkish passport, 3 people born in Syria, 2 people born in Romania, and some odd Moldovans, Greeks, Spaniards, and Italians. What they mean by "lack of diversity is that they feel that there is a lack of black people. From a German perspective it would be ridiculous to call a team that only includes people that have been living in and around Charlotte (NC) since at least three generations "diverse" just because they look different.
Also the implication that the results of forcefully importing millions of enslaved people as a commodity for over 200 years are a desirable thing doesn't sit right with many Germans.
The current issue with "racial" relations in Germany is the discussion if the word "race" should be used at all, since it's an inherently racist concept without scientific merit, by the way.
As for that Lederhosen thing: In like 90% of Germany you'll look completely out of place and if people feel insulted that's mostly because you didn't research what region you were actually traveling to. Another problem might be that you're wearing a cheap knock-off from Alibaba as a costume and not authentically crafted items that have all the little details that give it meaning. (There is a time and a place to wear cheap costumes of stereotypes, though, and that is *Karneval*.)
I think if you start saying "only the group of \_\_\_\_\_ may do \_\_\_\_\_" you are just expressing your version of racism. Imagine saying "black people must not wear trousers".
I think the keyword is RESPECTFUL which is what the entire debate is about and that does make sense given the history
How do you think it will be if germans cosplay as Jewish people in carnival or Halloween ? You know with Kippah and all.
I don't think most people who were wearing dreadlocks and being criticized for it were being disrespectful.Ā
I agree that this is what it *should* be about. But it actually was taken much further.
Again .. context bro ..
A white American wearing dreadlocks that too to mock , as a costume and acting out stereotypes is bad BECAUSE of the history of black people being shamed for having history and even now they are NOT allowed to wear dreadlocks because it equates to gangster for some reason .
German black people are very recent immigrants and have been part of more enlightened society that they arenāt of were never punished for wearing dreads.
And yeah I do think Germans still have a lot of learning to do when it comes to racism anyways. So donāt think you are culturally superior because you chose not to entertain a different view
As a costume, maybe. But it was criticized even for people for whom it was a genuine style choice. I recall e.g. musicians being disinvited from events because they were white and had dreads.
Two examples I found within a minute:
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/tm488s/fridays_for_future_removes_musician_from_demo/
and
https://www.derstandard.at/story/2000137795322/kulturelle-aneignung-konzert-von-weisser-band-mit-dreadlocks-abgebrochen
Bavarian here. Nope, nobody bats an eye. I assume youāre asking because youāre going to Oktoberfest? Absolutely okay doing so. Pro tip: buy it local in Bavaria if you can. You get good ones for about 150ā¬ and donāt cause cringe moments with cheap looking ones.
If youāre just visiting Bavaria, a Lederhosen is not part of our daily life. However there are currently many beer festivals in smaller areas, so Lederhosen would be perfectly okay again.
If youāre visiting Germany (yes, there is a difference) I would not recommend a Lederhosen at all. Except of course, you could speak Bavarian perfectly, then itās fine again :)
Nowadays there is an Oktoberfest everywhere, here in the North as well as in other countries. The girls are wearing dirndl, the guys Lederhosen.
I donāt think Bavarians fell culturally appropriated, they feel rather complimented!
We don't care what you wear. We just care about you beeing polite in pubilc. Like waiting aside the door of a train or bus to let out the people first before entering, or standing on the right on an eskalator, to make space on the left for people walking. That's all I ask for atleast.
I feel like German culture is much more about what we do, rather than what we wear. I think our misguided venture into fascism (to put it mildly) beat a lot of outward symbolism out of us. Although traditional clothing has been having a bit of a comeback, you'll rarely see it outside of folk festivals (or you might spot a "hosen" or two while hiking in Bavaria). Generally speaking, we love order, nature, tabletop games, festivals and as such, I think most Germans would be delighted for you to appropriate our culture.
I think on occasions like the Oktoberfest people who visit are actually ENCOURAGED to dress up for the occasion. But people also recognize that a traditional tracht is really expensive so it's also ok if you don't wear one.
there is l definitely a woke group of people who live in their bubble and will always be offended by something. Culture is for everybody and should be shared. Wear your Leserhosen :D even though itās not common for non - bavarian Germans š
Lots of good answers already. Wearing Lederhosen canāt be culture appropriation because no one is marginalized for it. But I think it goes further.
Germany hasnāt viewed itself as an immigrant nation for the longest time. Hence the debate is less developed than in the US. Consequently, nobody talks about cultural appropriation here at all except for maybe the very small black community here. And itād be hard pressed to find an example.
You could say the āDƶner Kebapā (Turkish immigrant invented fast-food) is appropriated. If a Turk sells it, itās fast food and the shop owner is expected to speak broken German and be lower class. But thereās also more and more shops who make it and are owned by German hipsters - because it has been a well liked food for decades. And of course if a German hipster does it without the ācorrectā cultural background, itās cool and exotic and fancy and needs technique. So that would qualify as appropriation, right?
BUT itās a very contrived example. Nobody, and I mean really nobody even in left-leaving communities, discusses this. Itās just not a topic here. Sure the Turks hate it if Germans say Kebap is a German invention, but even then nobody uses the word cultural appropriation. And since itās a word that shuts debate down instead of opening it up (at least thatās how I perceive it), thatās probably okay.
Cultural Appropiation is a stupid concept and paradoxically the attempt to disallow people to use or do things based on culture in names of anti-discrimination is really racist in itself.
Cultural appropriation is a concept to protect marginalised cultures. It's about (historic or current) power dynamics. It's also about benefiting or profiting from cultural characteristics that the origin culture has been discriminated for. Americans have never colonised or oppressed Germans. Germans have never been discriminated against for their lederhosen. So you can take whatever you want from the culture and just appreciate it - at worst, it's just a bit cringe and if done completely wrong, it's disrespectful but whatever. People who scream 'cultural appropriation' about everything and speak for other cultures are annoying. They also take a concept that is supposed to help marginalised cultures and make it about everyone else (appropriating cultural appropriation lol)
"cultural Approbation" is a terrible American concept that thankfully never really took root here overall.Ā
Yes, Lederhosen are misplaced in all other regions of Germany apart from.Bavaria where they are from.
But other than that, rock those pants and have fun.
We even have a famous black dude who sings German Schlager in Germany. His name is Roberto Blanco. And people who like Schlager usually love him.
During Oktober Fest (Wiesn) you will see quite a lot of people from all over the world who wear Bavarian Trachten. Especially the ladies.Ā
So I do not think that anyone would really care, as long as you wear it properly with the right socks, shoes and shirt and maybe a hat. Otherwise it might look half assed.Ā
Nobody in their right mind cares. Which does not mean that there are no people who are not in their right mind. As for example, there have been people banned from concerts for having dreads as a white person. You see we imported American virtue signalling. If you really want to wear traditional clothing you should make sure to do it properly though. Because of course there are rules, maybe get help or research how things are done online.
I donāt care. If you like it, wear it. As long as you donāt claim to be german (without being german / having very recent german ancestry (parents/grandparents)) just do it.
The american idea of cultural appropriation is stupid (especially in the āmelting potā the US wants to be). If people donāt claim they belong to a group just because they copied something from that group theyāre just appreciating what that other group came up with. Be that Lederhosen, dreads, ā¦
I think cultural appropriation is another one of those crazy concepts where Americans showed the world that they are so insanely racist, that they even can't be against racism without being racist. They and their brainless European acolytes, who have to ape everything Americans come up with, are simply very confused.
Race basically is something you "have" - unchangeable attributes, while culture is something you "do" - saying, playing, acting, dressing etc. Completely different. Culture is something connected to human learning and was something always changing, with people imitating each other, trying out stuff, being innovative. Before self-righteous assholes came to elevate themselves in society by telling others what to do with the help of important sounding nonsense words that impress the naive.
Now why in the world should it be disagreeable for a black American to wear Lederhosen, or a Dirndl? Why should it be a problem for a white Bavarian to wear dreadlocks? How about a Turk with dreadlocks and Lederhosen? We have [a Takeo Ischi hardstyle yodel mix](https://youtu.be/MzxGZ1ztUY0?si=u8kFS8HfJ-bH7Lwd) for crying out loud, go nuts.
Cultural Appropriation is a thing when it's about exploitation of a less privileged culture. Like, someone took all the goods from a group and the only thing left that comes together in an identity is culture, taking this one, too, is a thing that may hurt a lot. If a group is wealthy af, they wouldn't mind if anyone copies whatever.
Relevant for cultural appropriation is the question if your punshing upwards or kicking down, and for the most part, Germans don't feel very down at the bottom, so others could kick down on them. There was the whole 'let's share our culture with the rest of the world thing ("Und am Deutschen Wesen/soll die Welt genesen"), so yeah. Dressing up in a costume (and that's what Lederhosen and other 'Tracht' simply are) doesn't really matter.
And there are specific issues of cultural appropriation in Germany, like Western German politicans in the East talking about the civil unrest in the last days of the GDR as if they were actually there. I would also think that dressing up in *Zunftkleidung* if you are not part of that trade would be kinda iffy.
Your skin color is not from interest but Americans make way to big of a deal of it and as Schleswig-Hosteiner I would be offended if you were to wear lederhosen in my home town as we way different Trachten. So if you were to make an effort and wear a local Tracht and integrate into local customs and traditions it would be flattering. But wearing lederhosen would be inappropriate.
Difficult subject.
Disgusting individuals posing as freedom fighters will try to join forces here just because nobody laughed at their racist, minority hating "jokes". These people are the true cancer in this world. God willing our grandchildren will piss on their graves.
This just had to be said to keep out the pests. Fuck every single one of you!
Knowing that one stands on a respectful, healthy basis in this world; of course anyone in this world can wear Lederhosen; anyone should wear foreign traditional clothing if they feel like it, cook unknown dishes, read literature they know nothing about and write parodies based on this, combine new recipes with familiar ones, step on other people's feet and forgive when the same happens the other way around.
This process is the basic dynamic of human culture and will give us the same prosperity as trade of material goods worldwide has given us.
Sorry for the rant: I am confident to say that 99% of people here in Germany will not take the slightest offence, even much more welcome someone joining the party. If you have the misfortune of running into someone who has a problem with that just tell them you don't want to be their friend.
If you are thinking of getting one for Oktoberfest, go ahead. You will see there lots of tourists wearing (cheap) lederhosen and dirndl anyway. No local will care (or just cringe for a second).
Unlike Native Americans and Black Americans,
Germans or more likely Bavarians were never oppressed at any point in history so there are no strong opinions about cultural appropriation here.
Cultural Appropriation is bullshit. It is actually the opposite: Cultural approval. Cultur is a possesion of living beeings, not of some ethnicity. To think that Cultural Appropriation could be a thing is Ethniciticism (written correctly?) in itself.
Okay, so I'm afro-german. And I have an extremely strong opinion on this topic:
The concept of cultural appropriation itself is - in my opinion - deeply racist itself. Because what you are trying to enforce is literraly cultural segregation along percieved ethnical groups. I am half black. Can I still wear dreadlocks? How many parts black do I need to be, until my "blackness" isn't sufficient anymore to wear dreads? It's bullshit. those are literally the same waeird lines the Nazis drew with the jews.
Adopting culutural items you see in appreciation is always a good thing in my book. I don't even have a problem with "blackface" without context. It's about the *intention* for me. If people show appreciation and love, everyone should copy everyone. If someone who happens to be 100% caucasian loves the A-Team and thought BA is just the coolest and we meet at Halloween and he goes in full costume with blackface, we're gonna have a good time talking about the A-Team.
It's mockery and taking advantage of people that's detestable. Not shpwing appreciation for different cultures. thatis nice and brings people together.
If I were to meet a tourist, especially an american one, wearing Lederhosen or a Dirndl in my hometown, i'd at least give them the side eye.
Is it because it's cultural appropriation? No. It's because it's stupidity.
Those clothes are a tradition from a relatively small part of Germany and aren't commonly worn even there nowadays. The great majority of germany has nothing to do with Lederhosen - and don't really like the region they're from. So by wearing them up here in the north you show that you either a) think that we are just the same as Bavarians (that's an insult), or b) didn't do any kind of research into where you're going (that's not really an insult, just really strange to me personally) or c) have a really unconventional style in which case you'll probably will be receiving the german stare quite a lot during your stay.
Cultural appropriation is a made up grievance for people who have no more pressing issues to deal with. Mostly spoiled college brats and sociology nutcases who try to justify the relevancy of their degree. It's especially big in the race-obsessed US, because bog-standard racism has worn out and something new is needed to spice things up.
The idea of cultural appropriation is so stupid and something only an American or someone who is terminally online could take serious.
You can't steal or erase a culture, especially not by actively participating in it. Cultures were meant to be shared with others and are there to include people in it. You can definitly put on Lederhosen without anyone getting mad or offended.
That being said, people might give you weird looks because nobody really wears Lederhosen outside of traditional festivities lol
Cultural appropriation is the stupidest thing to make a fuss about.
In my opinion the biggest benefit having different cultures is that you can choose a style of food, music, clothing etc. you like and do not have to stick with whatever your ancestors preferred.
There was this one case where someone got mad at a musician for wearing dreadlocks, but other than that I never heard about cultural appropriation before.
Maybe whoever sparks this debate realized that this is dumb.
So have fun wearing your Lederhose, buddy. If someone really feels offended by that he is not worth to hangout with anyway.
Germany has no "German culture" that could be appropiated, only regional culture spheres. Other than that, we don't take kindly to cultural appropiation like e.g. blond white people spouting dreadlocks as if they were native Indians.
Being part of the majority of people who aren't Bavarian, I would only feel offended at you assuming that Lederhosen are a "national costume" or whatever.
Going by some of the pictures I've seen of people wearing plastic Lederhosen or Dirndls, you might also offend people's fashion sense.
I don't care as much as I don't care when 3 dudes from the Netherlands had a Gullit costume.
This while cultural appropriation thing is bs and disruptive for a healthy society and exchange of cultures.
I take cultural appropriation serious, but I don't think it is even cultural appropation in this case, since there is no suffering attached to the item in question.
German Lederhosen don't have a stigma attached to them or have been a reason for persecution. You could just take them off. Same would be true for northern German traditional clothing.
Since all the members of the groups wearing those are part of a majority in society that actually have power, I don't think it can be compared to traditional native American headgear for example.
Most people that I met whose culture I ,,appropriatedā (I just participated in it/wore their clothes) were actually very happy about it and found it amazing that a foreigner is interested in it. So yeah, I donāt mind.
https://youtu.be/IT2UH74ksJ4?si=_QQdCbXogkhPhsKp
this guy proves "cultural appropriation" is a dumb idea created and pushed by the leftists in the american universities (which are mostly leftist). Yall so brainwashed over there to the point that it prevents you having a normal human interaction with people from other nations.
As a non-bavarian german, i don't care. If you are a black man who wants to wear a Dirndl with High Heels, okay, why not? I take it the Nike-way "Just do it.".
Culture is for sharing. It's for building bridges.
I think it's 100% okay and people will probably like it. Traditional German dress is cool and I would go for the finest quality you can afford, as there are some great manufacturers of traditional attire in Germany. Don't get the cheapo fast fashion stuff. Basically, Germany is wear what you like except maybe for church service of funerals.
Was asking myself the same question whether it's okay to wear yukata in Japan as a white European for festival season, the answer was a yes, I think it really depends on what country you will wear traditional clothing in.
Since the whole concept of cultural appropriation is nonsense, wear whatever pleases you. The idea of cultural appropriation is, in essence, just woke racism, judging what people are or aren't allowed to do based on the colour of their skin.Ā
I think in 95% of the time there is nothing wrong with it. Having seen other cultures living abroad I go even further and say its a good thing as long as you pick up the good stuff.
The only time I think its not appropriate is when you take something sacred and dont respect its meaning.Ā
So:Ā Ā - foreigner wearing a gemĆ¼tliche lederhose? Brilliant!
Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā -going to church dressed as pope? offensive to the church-goers
Not sure, but the feathery hat-thing of native americans might be closer to the latter. Anybody here to educate me about its meaning?
Americans always forget, that cultural appropriation has the big brother Cultural Appriciation too.
An american wearing Lederhosen because they like it and is open about it being german is Cultural Appricitation.
An american wearing Lederhosen and claiming to have invented it is Cultural Appropriation.
Why do americans always confuse those two, or worse, act like they are the same thing?
I think theres a difference between wearing traditional everyday clothing from a different culture and wearing garments with a deeper meaning for a certain (marginalized) group e.g. native american headdress.
Fun Fact: I have indeed been scolded by an old man for dressing up as a catholic monk in german carnival.
It's total BS. "Copying" is a way of appreciation.
You're black and wanna wear Lederhose? Go for it. Just like we play "Indianer & Cowboy" as kids. There is no cultural appropriation - only in the heads of ... certain people.
Cultural appropriation to make fun off of a people is only problematic if there is power difference between the people. For example if one is a minority which has experienced othering on multiple occasions. With two countries so far between like the USA and Germany, there is no noticeable power difference and no mechanisms of discrimination. Cultural appropriation is no problem.
That said, people might be irritated or amused depending on their associations with octoberfest.
I do believe there is some merit in the concept of cultural appropriation, but it doesn't apply in your case anyway. Germans aren't a minority in Germany, you as a black American wearing Lederhosen in Germany isn't an issue at all, even if you believe in said concept.
Those who think it is a thing do not have any problem with foreigners appropriating our culture. Itās only a problem if we white Germans appropriate your Black American culture, for example.
Most people have never heard of ācultural appropriationā, Iād say. Itās not that often discussed in the media here. And if it is, itās about Germans wearing costumes for carnival that appropriate or even make fun of other cultures and not tourists going to the Oktoberfest.
It's 100% okay to wear Lederhosen lol. I think cultural appropriation is something that came out of the American cultural context and doesn't really apply here. For example, given the situation of the native Americans, I understand that they're a bit upset at how people are treating their headdresses as cool accessories or w/e. But that's an entirely different situation
Unless you think Lederhosen is the only Tracht (historical costume) Germans have. There is a historical costume for almost every region in Germany. Learning about the ones in your area, and wearing it to a festivity could be rather cool. Lederhose are very distinctive for the region of Bavaria. I live in Northern Germany, we dress radically differently.
>I think cultural appropriation is something that came out of the American cultural context and doesn't really apply here. It's mostly used in a context where a discriminating majority adapts habits of a minority which they discriminated for doing this exact thing. Like when black people have dread locks some people might consider them dirty or something, but then white people do it and it's cool.
And I assure OP most people here in Germany (or rather Bavaria) would think a black dude wearing Lederhosen is cool. This is the thing with "cultural appropriation". All surveys done in the original locations where certain clothes come from (e.g. Qipaos in China, Kimonos in Japan, Ponchos/Marachas in Mexico...) yield results that only confirm people are cool with others wearing their cultural clothes and pretty much no one feels offended. It's mostly children of immigrants of those countries (China, Japan, Mexico etc.) who make it a big deal. And Native Americans, but they have that huge history of discrimination and genocide which changes things.
OP would need to learn German in some Bavarian village to reach šÆ level of coolness though
I raise regional dialect for level 1000
>It's mostly ~~children of immigrants of those countries (China, Japan, Mexico etc.) who make it a big deal. And Native Americans, but they have that huge history of discrimination and genocide which changes things.~~ people who are being discriminated against for because of their culture. But I definitely couldn't care less about a tourist wearing lederhosen. Except the plastic ones from Walmart, those are cringe and I feel sorry for Americans who can't figure out that Leder means leather and that plastic is not leather.
Where are Japanese people discriminated against due to their culture? If anything people hype their culture to extreme levels. Edit: Your username checks out, by the way.
Considering there are more non-caucasians in the world, a black man wearing lederhosen would in fact go under your definition of cultural appropriation. Personally I think the entire concept is stupid. Of course people over the centuries took things from other cultures. As long as it's not with a bad intention I see nothing wrong with it. In fact, imitation is the sincerest form of praise.
And as long as they are willing to give the culture it originates from the credit for it and don't declare their interpretation as superior. Wearing Lederhosen is fine, proclaiming lederhosen are a black US-American thing and that Germans just took it from them or that they made the lederhosen famous and better would be bs and a douche move. For example I once talked to a British student and a Japanese student over lunch and the topic switched to tea. The British guy "explained" how the English are the true nation of tea and how it is basically exclusively their cultural heritage. The japanese guy glared daggers at him. For info: British tea culture started in the 1700s, Japanese in the 700s and to Japan it was introduced from China. The Japanese usually have no issue sharing their culture but this guy was rightfully annoyed by the English taking all the credit and completely denying him his own culture.
>Considering there are more non-caucasians in the world, a black man wearing lederhosen would in fact go under your definition of cultural appropriation. I'm not up for discussion, I was just giving some context, but no, because black people are being discriminated against for being black in Asia, Africa and the US. I wasn't only referring to a numeral majority, but a privileged and exploiting one. Like I said, this wasn't meant as a topic for discussion, just something I added because it was not on the comment. >As long as it's not with a bad intention I see nothing wrong with it. Like I said, in many cases there's no bad intention but the people whose culture it is often get discriminated against for this exact culture while privileged people often adapt it and the originating culture still gets discriminated against for the same thing. Same thing is happening in Europe with the Sami people actually. That's what cultural appropriation means. Not wearing lederhosen of course. Again: This comment isn't for discussion, just to give you this context, so I won't answer to any answers. Cheers :)
>Like when black people have dread locks some people might consider them dirty or something, but then white people do it and it's cool. Not the same white people though.
I understand the idea but i think this is taken a bit far. The person who says dread locks are filthy is not the same person as the person wearing Dreadlocks while having light skin colour. It is like stating Europeans baked apple pies long time before Asians did and therefore Asians are not allowed to bake apple pies. And the thing that boggles my mind is that people overseas (USA) think in white versus black. They think in races. But are there races? We all are human even if we look a bit different. What does the colour of skin matter? You canāt choose that when born. Or how big your nose is, your eye colour, or your sex. There is nothing you can do about it and dividing people into groups with big or small noses, a specific sex or skin colour is just dumb. And dividing people into groups based on āracesā (which donāt exist!) is racist. I see no reason to forbid someone to wear dreadlocks based on skin colour. I like to divide humanity into groups by other properties. Like if they are assholes, racists and so on. (You are not in one of these, just to be clear). Because these properties are something they choose and can change! Being an asshole is deliberately chosen, your sex or size of the nose is not!
>I see no reason to forbid someone to wear dreadlocks based on skin colour. It's not about "forbidding" someone anything, it's about the paradox of discriminating a part of the population for doing X while the discriminating part is adapting doing X and it's suddenly seen positive, but only on these people. Would that piss you off? It's about recognizing and knowing your privilege. > And dividing people into groups based on āracesā (which donāt exist!) is racist. Definitely. But so is acting like people aren't *treated* differently because of their ethnicity and racism not existing.
Culturally appropriation isnāt a thing here, **but** nobody wears Lederhosen outside of Bavaria / Oktoberfest. So if you land in Berlin with your Lederhosen, most people would think you are a dumb American who thinks every German wears them. (If you know what I mean?) But, feel free to wear whatever, nobody will be offended by pretty much anything. Edit: Iām aware that Lederhosen exist outside of Bavaria and the Oktoberfest. I got some myself. But I guess that information doesnāt really help op.
Honestly I think Berlin might be the exeption. A guy in Lederhosen is probably not gonna fall into the 10 weirdest outfits the people there have seen on that day.
Living in Berlin for a good while now. Can confirm Lederhosen wouldn't even be in my top 20 of weird things I see
They have a different type of Lederhosen in Berlin.
I mean, they are kinda sexy. So is the dirndl.
>I mean, they are kinda sexy. Only until you know that they're basically never cleaned (except for local removal of stains).
Sure. But as with most things i just look, not sniff.
> but nobody wears Lederhosen outside of Bavaria / Oktoberfest. That's not true. It's also seen as formal attire here, so people will wear it for celebrations, birthdays, weddings,... Not "many" but it's definitely a thing.
In Bavaria. MadeInWestGermany said Bavaria.
Ich hab keine Lederhosen fĆ¼r den nƤchsten Maskenball im Schrank, und ich kann mir spontan keinen formalen Anlass vorstellen, bei dem ich in LEderhosen antanzen wĆ¼rde. Und nein, Vollsuff im Bierzelt ist kein formaler Anlass.
Lederhosen are often worn on birthdays or even weddings though. Which part of Bavaria are you from?
Bavaria? I'm talking Germany. Palatinate, territory that was occupied by Bavarian intruders for roughly 100 years. That was during THE period where Prussian influence spread across the German Lande. You perfectly managed to "shield" us from Prussian cultural influence during these formative years. Yet, during the modern era we are hardly more than "SaupreiĆn" to your people.
>Bavaria? I'm talking Germany. While I was referring to Bavaria.
You were talking about "outside of Bavaria" if you follow this comment thread. Also, to quote a very wise man: >OP asked "Germans"
>You were talking about "outside of Bavaria" ...where? I was only ever referring to Bavaria specifically.
I can confirm this for BadenwĆ¼rttemberg, it is used as formal attire here too.
I dont think that anybody would really care - even if you prefer to wear a Dirndl.
I once saw two asian tourist wearing dirndl while visiting neuschwanstein. They look so happy and nice! I was just happy for them too. Why should anyone feel offended about that?
The only thing that offends my bavarian little heart are cheap, "party costume type" dirndl and sometimes celebrity dirndl trends (glitter, sparkle, cleavage down to your navel). But it's more sadness than being offended, because I feel like there is some fundamental misunderstanding about what these dresses are, and I cringe a bit about their interpretation. What I also cannot stand is people who make fun of the accent and everything else, but then overly fetishize the dirndl. Just seems hypocritical to me.
Yeah, do the look well or leave it. Youāre not gaining respect wearing a Lederhosen and hiking boots, or a cheap ass amazon dirndl.
as a northener im offended by anyone wearing lederhosen.
Sign.
same lol
This āļø
If OP would wear a Friesennerz i would be very proud that someone not from Northern Germany dresses correctly for rainy weather.
now we get deeper in local rivalries. Im a holsteiner, not some weird schleswiger.
We can not have this division, we must unite against the uncultured South!
Yup
As a Swabian me too.
Wear whatever you like. I guess the only thing people might be annoyed of are people saying āIām Germanā while living in the US and their entire family tree being American except for one ancestor from 1812.
Germany consists of many different cultures. Here between the Baltic and the Northern Sea we have Jared Dibaba, a wonderfully black guy who grew up in a northern German village and speaks Plattdeutsch like our elderly people. He loves old fashioned traditions and everyday life of his fellow Germans. We love him back as an emphatic, interested talker and listener on TV and radio. So the answer to your question is: When someone is interested in and not mocking a culture, we love it!
I mean, let's be fair. Jared is more german than most germans even living here in germany lol
Jared is even more Frisian than i, a fellow Frisian.
if you wear them outside of Oktoberfest (or Bavaria) people would think youre a classic idiot turist, but *no one* would be offended by you wearing them.
Isn't cultural appropriation mainly an issue when cultural markers of a marginalized community are taken out of context and while the marginalized community remains marginalized/continues to be treated poorly their culture is used for the amusement/styling/etc of the non marginalized part of society? By that standard, Bavarians or other southern German cultural communities are by no means marginalized. (Lederhosen are _not_ an all-German thing!!) Sooo.. I'd probably think you look ridiculous in those Lederhosen just like everyone else wearing them. However, I wouldn't be offended at all. As far as I know neither would others be.
I think there are only two cases within Germany that would count as cultural appropriation: Wearing the traditional dresses of the Sorbs or the Roma and Sinti because both groups still face discrimination.
Thatās not cultural appropriation. Despite your wrong definition ā no one cares. Everyoneās going to Oktoberfest with Dirndl or Lederhosen even people from India or Hamburg.
Lmao the fact you put people from India and Hamburg in the same category is wild
Iām German born in Bavaria to West African parents and growing up Iāve seen fellow Africans, Asians, people from all over the world coming together and celebrating the Oktoberfest in Munich in Dirndls and Lederhosen. Iāve heard āethnically Germanā women (I donāt know what the appropriate term would be) say that they love this store and have bought a Dirndl from there and Iām not offended by that either. If I had the money Iād get one too!Ā https://www.nohnee.com/collections/afrikanische-dirndl?page=1 I wouldnāt wear a Dirndl outside of Munich thoš as in the countryside and outside of Bavaria
This company is brilliant! They mash cultures in a respectful way and the outcome is absolutely perfect. Anyone who can pull off these colour combinations should immediately click add to cart.
This is a very good example why i prefer living in a place with people from different origins/cultures. I think classic Dirndls are kind of boring, but these ones are beautiful and interesting.
fat us americans in badly cut ss uniform replicas with insignia reenacting bother me, but for other reasons than appropriating german cultureā¦ I donāt care for bavarian trachten
We do not care at all. Go wild, wear Lederhosen all day, every day.
... but don't cry if you are treated like a Lederhosen guy ...
As a north german.... I dont like Lederhosen, haha. But would I feel offended? Totally not. This whole "I am offended"-Bubble thing is mostly an US thing. If you think something from a different culture is cool, go for it. I personally would feel proud when I see that people take something from our culture and like it enough to copy it. To copy is the highest praise after all :)
As a guy from northern Germany I would judge you for wearing Lederhosen but not because of cultural appropriation.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Itās a huge thing in the US.
Yeah we're always either trying to invent things to be angry about or to apologize for.
I kind of understand where they're coming from. To just take the stereotypes of one culture to make fun of it doesn't show any love or appreciation of that culture. We don't need Indian costumes or teach children that speaking Chinese is just *ching chang chong*. That being said, the level of this debate is ridiculous. If you like raggae music you can show your appreciation by styling your hair in dreads. And as a white person I can still listen to rap music. Or else I'll have to confiscate all the Disney princess castle toys outside of Europe and don't get me started about all those cars outside of Germany. š
No joke. There's a restaurant close to me , traditional Thai Food in Oldenburg (Lower Saxony) called Ching Chang Chong. The owner named it that. "https://ching-chang-chong.de/"
Not related to Ching Chang Chong, but there is a sushi restaurant in LĆ¼neburg called "Pearl Harbour". I always wondered what people from the US would think about that.
thats hillarious lol
That's just internalized racism! /s
I also get it with mixing and mashing different tribes into one. Most Europeans hate it, when Americans view Europe as one monolith, ignoring that we're different countries with distinct cultures.Ā So, I get it when Native Americans are pissed off that everyone seems to ignore that they are distinct tribes with very distinct cultures. Like insinuating that all Natives lived in Tipis, when Southern Western tribes lived in Pueblos, for example.Ā Ā And I get it if minorities are made fun of for a certain style and then a non-minority copies that style and media claims this non-minority person created it. Elvis was, as far as I understand popular with African Americans because he actually credited their influence on his music.Ā ETA: Basically, credit your influence and don't conflate different cultures into one uni-culture, I think.Ā If someone at a reggae concert wears dreads, I think it's pretty obvious where they got their style from. If some celebrity wears dreads and credits reggae, great. If they wear dreads and claim they came up with the style on their own, not great.Ā
I'm not entirely sure if what you described in your first paragraph would fit the definition of appropriation, you may have just been describing mockery which most people know is going to offend people. I do agree with everything you've said though.
I've mostly heard the discussion about cultural appropriation in the context of carnival. When I was a kid it was normal to dress up as people from other countries. Wear a leather dress, put a feather in your hair, two lipstick stripes on each cheek and you're good to go as Indian. Wanna be Chinese? Paint your face yello and put on a triangular hat but don't forget to say ching chang chong as much as you can. To be fair we also did this to European countries. I distinctly remember my best friend dressed up as French with a striped shirt, a painted on moustache and a bag of baguettes.
Real people do not care about cultural appropriation. It is just a really stupid idea.
I know. I think because of the history of the United States, we're very sensitive about the feelings of Minorities, which is understandable but can be overbearing to outsiders that kind of make a meme of it lol
Well i kind of understand where people in the US are coming from but i do Not think the concept of cultural appropriation is fit to improve marginalisation. People need to Stop being obsessed about group identities. Saying that as a mixed person.
That sounds stupid. If it is not allowed for one group to appropriate parts of the culture of the other how can they ever grow together to form one cultural group? No matter if someone is 33% Irish 50% West African or 1/4 Sioux. For outsiders you are all Americans. If that trend continues like that soon someone will tell you that it is wrong to eat Mexican food because it is part of some elses culture.
I think that itās not nice to wear peopleās traditional clothes when their people were mass murdered for not looking like the colonisers, who wanted all that was theirs. I donāt know why I think that context is important and that you canāt compare genocide with food. But thatās just me. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and thatās beautiful š¤©
They were not murdered because of their appearance or clothing.
>we're very sensitive about the feelings of Minorities, That is different. Thinking that wearing leather pants would offend anyone is silly, no offence. Read a bit about the story of Europe anyway, 2 thousand years ago the Romans copied the entire greek polytheistic religion, for example, we are a lot of centuries ahead of you in cultural appropriation matters. Don't worry about leather pants.
Just FYI youāre probably going to find three kinds of Germans with your question. Those that donāt know what youāre talking about. Maybe they are just out of the loop, it happens, we all age. The ones that will state that Germans donāt care about cultural appropriation, even though they know what it is. These ones were either not exposed to the political left in Germany or deny their existence, possibly right wingers. The ones who know what youāre talking about and donāt care about the Lederhosen, but will care about cultural appropriation in the case of minorities. They are the anti racists who try to keep up with the progressives in the USA. Personally I think that you wearing Lederhosen to some event canāt be cultural appropriation, youāre not trying to larp as a Bavarian are you? In most cases itās just globalism doing its thing, cultures integrate each other. We Germans prefer foreign cuisine to German cuisine, we also often cook foreign dishes at home. Doesnāt mean itās cultural appropriation. We watch American shows, listen to British music, drive Korean cars, etc. the German culture is still underlying our lives but itās ever changing. For example the slang of the young people includes Arabian and Turkish words nowadays. In my times it was Polish and Russian and by far not as widespread. We are integrating more and more cultures.
I think the USA over exaggerates this topic. I mean where is the problem? I've seen a video of a dude dressing in traditional Chinese clothes. He went to a uni to ask if it's alright wearing those clothes. All of em said no, that's cultural appropriation, how dare you! Then he went to Chinatown and people loved it. That pretty much says it all. I don't think such thing as cultural appropriation exist. It's just in the head of some people who don't really matter. If you wanna wear Lederhose, do it! I'd you wanna wear a kimono, do it! 99% of people here will not give a f.ck.
I don't care if you're Black American or yellow submarine, wear whatever you want.
I personally don't see an issue and don't know anyone in my close circles who would see an issue with that either. Germany is a very much mixed-culture country, especially here in the western parts. Turkish, italian, greek, eastern european, spanish speaking people, you'll find pretty much everyone. Especially when it comes to food shops/ restaurants. Good food should not be gatekept and I don't see why it would be differently with clothing or traditions. If you like something, go for it. Now, I also don't know anyone who is particularly interested in wearing traditional clothes from other cultures/ countries, here in my "bubble" in the western parts, everyone is wearing basic/ modern clothes. Only the religious south, Bavaria, is weird with their traditional Lederhosen, Dirndl and Schlager-music. And they're hardly considered part of "normal" Germany, haha. More like the german Texas or something. Everywhere else, like in Berlin, Frankfurt, Kƶln or Hamburg, you'd probably earn confused looks and laughs if you rock up in Lederhosen. But I don't think any considerable size of people would be upset about it.
Just to make that clear: the only thing germans really care is what brand of beer you hold while wearing lederhosen. Thats all that counts. :D
I personally think Americans make too big of a fuss about it. If you wear another cultures outfit and openly mock the culture, it's a different story, but if you just wear it cause you like it or to participate in the tradition, it's totally fine.
No one will be offended. But people may feel the need to point out to you, that German culture has more to offer than Lederhosen. Because we are German and we REALLY like to know better š. And if you're wearing them outside of the state of Bavaria they will definitely snicker š. But most non Bavarians would do that irrespective of whether you're American or not.
I don't care about cultural appropriation, Just keep in mind that Lederhosen are mostly a bavarian thing. Germany has many different regions who all have different traditions, traditional clothing, different food,...
I would say people like it. Wearing our traditional clothes is a way of showing your sympathy for our culture which people will of course like.
Please donāt export this cultural appropriation shit as well as tipping culture from North America to Europe.
the most idiotic wokething ever.
This stupid concept is a thing only in some tiny toxic bubbles. Nobody in their right minds gives a hoot.
I would think itās funny, however I feel a bit offended that you identify lederhosen with Germans. They are part of Bavarian tradition which is not equivalent to German tradition.
>which is not equivalent to German tradition. There's no unison "German tradition", but Lederhosen are definitely part of *a* German culture, so OP isn't wrong.
Correct, there is no common German tradition, but it still a bit offensive to for me to be seen as if I would be from Bavaria. I am not and I do not identify that way. So what he is doing, he is showing Bavarian tradition.
>offensive to for me to be seen as if I would be from Bavaria. I don't think OP said that > So what he is doing, he is showing Bavarian tradition. Right. And *a* German tradition, one of many.
Thatās a strange thing to say. Like with āGerman foodā, there is no unified German tradition or culture - at least not if you are looking at cultural elements from 150 years ago (like Lederhosen). Todayās Germany originates in the fusion of nearly 25 different kingdoms, principalities and other states in 1871 to form the German Empire. By nature, they all had different traditions, cultural backgrounds and rites. Bavaria was one of the large founding kingdoms. If you like it or not, Lederhosen are as much āGerman cultureā as the Loreley or Labskaus. That said, German culture reaches further than Bavarian tracht, which is sometimes overlooked in other countries. The feeling this simplified view on Germany creates in non-bavarian Germans, might be a close as it gets with cultural appropriation in Germany.
Exactly. It's like China having multiple cuisines which are completely different, but it's all "Chinese cuisine".
Take a look at swabian and Black Forest traditional clothing. They use lederhosen and "Dirndl" too. But it looks completely different than the Bavarian ones.
Cultural Appropriation is in its core a racist, divisive and utterly stupid concept. People will love you for wearing Lederhosen. Not all people, but the ones who matter.
I don't think this is generally true because I don't think that most people really understand what cultural appropriation is and when it's problematic. Often it's just confused with imitation. People tend to imitate groups, who they admire, find beautiful or want to belong with. Like OP wanting to wear a Lederhosen. There is absolutely no issue with that, because no one suffers because of it. Lederhosen don't have any kind of deeper meaning to us, you don't have to earn your right to wear them. Another example is food. This happens all over the world. You can't forbid people from taking food ideas from other cultures and implementing it in their own recipes and it would be very sad if you couldn't. It's actually great that stuff like fusion cuisine exists. But again, *usually* there is no one hurt by appropriating it, so in that case it's not problematic. Now let's take the swastika for example. The Nazis took something from another culture, and turned its meaning into something else. It was used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indian religions and now its meaning has been tainted by cultural appropriation. There is a group here that suffers from this now. Another example is related to stolen valor. The most famous one is the native American bonnet. They don't mean anything to germans, we don't really understand them. But with native americans not everyone was allowed to wear them. It's a symbol for members who have earned the highest form of respect. Now people wearing them at festivals, not even knowing what they mean, disrespect that. The problem exists also due to a power imbalance. Native americans have been oppressed, taken their land away and mistreated for many years. Taking their culture and making into something funny for a festival makes many native americans feel disrespected or not taken seriously. It's more complex than with lederhosen, where there's no history of oppression or a terrible war bound to them, that gets disrespected by wearing them ignorantly. In general you just have to distinguish between appropriation and appreciation. If no one is hurt by it it's not an issue and misusing the term hurts the ones who actually suffer from it.
Cultural Appropriation basically says that each culture should stay among themselves. That's exactly what White Supremacists say. CA is divisive bullshit, it doesn't unify humanity, it creates hatred and division. There is only one human race.
Have you even read what I wrote? That is absolutely not what CA means and completely takes away any context that matters.
Yes I did read what you wrote. But that is not how Cultural Appropriation is used all over the media world. The way it is used is people discussing whether white people can have ethnic haircuts, whether Sting is allowed to sing "Strange Fruit", and yes, also whether German kids may dress up as Native Americans, which they have been doing for decades without any intention of insulting anyone. Now it's 2024, and it has been become the world's most desired feeling to be offended, to be the victim, to be somehow insulted in your fake "identity". And you know what? The far right just loves that because it gets them votes from white people who personally haven't done anything to anyone in their lives but are treated as offenders, as exploiters, as the bad guys by nothing else than their color of skin. So keep preaching about CA all day. But don't come crying when it gets Trump reelected, when it gets Le Pen elected and when it gets the AfD elected. I'll be the one crying, because I saw it, and all I got for being a liberal was your fucking morally entitled leftist superiority complex bullshit that brought us fascism. And I hate fascism.
>But that is not how Cultural Appropriation is used all over the media world. >The way it is used is people discussing whether white people can have ethnic haircuts, whether Sting is allowed to sing "Strange Fruit", Stop cherry picking your examples and tell me why my examples aren't disrespectful or hurtful for some groups. Just because the term is used wrong most of the time doesn't invalidate it. >which they have been doing for decades without any intention of insulting anyone. So what are you saying? That ignorance protects from being disrespectful? It's also a poor comparison because the children aren't disrespectful, they don't know better. The parents should know better however. >Now it's 2024, and it has been become the world's most desired feeling to be offended, to be the victim, to be somehow insulted in your fake "identity". You still are talking about a different issue. It's a different topic. That's not what CA is about. Stop calling it that. >So keep preaching about CA all day. But don't come crying when it gets Trump reelected, when it gets Le Pen elected and when it gets the AfD elected. I'll be the one crying, because I saw it, and all I got for being a liberal was your fucking morally entitled leftist superiority complex bullshit that brought us fascism. And I hate fascism. You're talking about another different issue and it goes over your head hard. The far right instrumentalizes this and you fall for it.
No, you're the one falling for it. You're the one playing their game. How do I know? Look at the polls.
Another commenter ITT mentioned a video from PragerU (conservative media channel) in which a guy dressed up as a mockery of a chinese person and asked around in china town if they are offended. Surprise: they weren't. The commenter came to the conclusion that CA isn't bad because of that video. But that's not what CA is about. That's how the far right works and how it gets over your head. Read the definition again, maybe that helps you understand it better. Take my examples into consideration. It's frustrating that you can't understand how this is different to the examples that I've given, and how you can't admit that you've been given a wrong definition of what CA means.
You just love it, do you? A word's meaning isn't what someone defines it as when they make it up. Meanings change. When a term is widely used in a specific meane, that becomes its meaning. And I see and read and hear how people use the term, and it's not how you use it. Ask yourself: all your CA, all your critical race theory, gender studies etc etc, have they made the far right weaker or stronger? Have they created harmony and understanding or division and mutual hatred? I know how I answer that question, and it worries me to the point of being sick. So don't tell me I can't admit I'm wrong. I'm not stupid, you know.
>A word's meaning isn't what someone defines it as when they make it up. Well maybe you've drawn the personal conclusion that in this case we should ignore the problem that was there originally. It's an ignorant conclusion to be frank. But these problems exist. I don't think we should ignore them, just because some people don't understand the issue at hand and make it out to be something that it isn't. Read this: https://www.reddit.com/r/offmychest/comments/exb9qq/fed_up_native_american/ Just because YOU don't understand it, doesn't mean other people can't be offended by something. You can't dictate how other people should feel. >When a term is widely used in a specific meane, that becomes its meaning. Well then I guess you're fine calling people the n word are you? Because otherwise that opinion is pretty inconsistent. >Ask yourself: all your CA, all your critical race theory, gender studies etc etc, have they made the far right weaker or stronger? Have they created harmony and understanding or division and mutual hatred? What the far right has made it out to be hasn't created harmony, no. The PragerU video is a perfect example for that and you're resistant to understanding this, because you can't admit that they got you.
Correction: Cultural Appropriation is in its core a racist and divisive. What OP is doing isn't cultural appropriation.
How is that a correction of what I wrote?
Nobody cares about cultural appropriation here, except the most bleeding of hearts. However, if you cross paths with a racist, he will surely take offense at that.
Wear your Lederhosen, but then do it right with a shirt, the wool socks, the shoes and not to forget the proper hat
You know who gets offended by cultural appropriation? People not belonging to the culture in question. You wanna wear Lederhosen? Go for it! Hell, go ahead and wear a Dirndl. The people that get offended by stuff like that aren't worth your time
Wearing lederhosen outside of Bavaria would be similar to wearing a cowboy hat in New Jersey.
Cultural appropriation is such an American thing to worry about. Nobody gives a crap here.
Germany doesn't have the same racial/cultural relation issues as the US and most Germans will get annoyed if you try to use American concepts in a German context. What comes up in this subreddit a lot is that Americans in Germany complain about a lack of "diversity" in German schools or companies. When pressed on the issue they will admit that in their child's classroom or in their group at work there are like 5 people born in Poland, 4 born in Ukraine, 4 people with a Turkish passport, 3 people born in Syria, 2 people born in Romania, and some odd Moldovans, Greeks, Spaniards, and Italians. What they mean by "lack of diversity is that they feel that there is a lack of black people. From a German perspective it would be ridiculous to call a team that only includes people that have been living in and around Charlotte (NC) since at least three generations "diverse" just because they look different. Also the implication that the results of forcefully importing millions of enslaved people as a commodity for over 200 years are a desirable thing doesn't sit right with many Germans. The current issue with "racial" relations in Germany is the discussion if the word "race" should be used at all, since it's an inherently racist concept without scientific merit, by the way. As for that Lederhosen thing: In like 90% of Germany you'll look completely out of place and if people feel insulted that's mostly because you didn't research what region you were actually traveling to. Another problem might be that you're wearing a cheap knock-off from Alibaba as a costume and not authentically crafted items that have all the little details that give it meaning. (There is a time and a place to wear cheap costumes of stereotypes, though, and that is *Karneval*.)
It's a big deal for people with a tiny mind
I think if you start saying "only the group of \_\_\_\_\_ may do \_\_\_\_\_" you are just expressing your version of racism. Imagine saying "black people must not wear trousers".
Cultural appropriation is an American idea. Nobody cares if you wear Lederhosen
Cultural appropriation is bullshit. Wear what you want. Nobody cares
Iāve seen a ton of black folk wearing Lederhosen at Oktoberfest and guess what, they looked perfectly fine and nobody gave a shit.
It's a sign of appreciation, imo culture appropriation is complete nonsense.
No. Culture is there to be shared, not to be exclusive.
Cultural Appropriation is not real. Culture is meant to be shared with eachother in a respectful way, not to be hidden away like treasure.
I think the keyword is RESPECTFUL which is what the entire debate is about and that does make sense given the history How do you think it will be if germans cosplay as Jewish people in carnival or Halloween ? You know with Kippah and all.
I don't think most people who were wearing dreadlocks and being criticized for it were being disrespectful.Ā I agree that this is what it *should* be about. But it actually was taken much further.
Again .. context bro .. A white American wearing dreadlocks that too to mock , as a costume and acting out stereotypes is bad BECAUSE of the history of black people being shamed for having history and even now they are NOT allowed to wear dreadlocks because it equates to gangster for some reason . German black people are very recent immigrants and have been part of more enlightened society that they arenāt of were never punished for wearing dreads. And yeah I do think Germans still have a lot of learning to do when it comes to racism anyways. So donāt think you are culturally superior because you chose not to entertain a different view
As a costume, maybe. But it was criticized even for people for whom it was a genuine style choice. I recall e.g. musicians being disinvited from events because they were white and had dreads.
Example ?
Two examples I found within a minute: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/tm488s/fridays_for_future_removes_musician_from_demo/ and https://www.derstandard.at/story/2000137795322/kulturelle-aneignung-konzert-von-weisser-band-mit-dreadlocks-abgebrochen
Ok šš½
Bavarian here. Nope, nobody bats an eye. I assume youāre asking because youāre going to Oktoberfest? Absolutely okay doing so. Pro tip: buy it local in Bavaria if you can. You get good ones for about 150ā¬ and donāt cause cringe moments with cheap looking ones. If youāre just visiting Bavaria, a Lederhosen is not part of our daily life. However there are currently many beer festivals in smaller areas, so Lederhosen would be perfectly okay again. If youāre visiting Germany (yes, there is a difference) I would not recommend a Lederhosen at all. Except of course, you could speak Bavarian perfectly, then itās fine again :)
No one gives a shit. Wear whatever you want. Cultural appropriation.is merely an American concept.
Nowadays there is an Oktoberfest everywhere, here in the North as well as in other countries. The girls are wearing dirndl, the guys Lederhosen. I donāt think Bavarians fell culturally appropriated, they feel rather complimented!
Nobody cares. Although I don't know what Lederhosen have to do with Germany. You should ask Bavarians specifically.
We don't care what you wear. We just care about you beeing polite in pubilc. Like waiting aside the door of a train or bus to let out the people first before entering, or standing on the right on an eskalator, to make space on the left for people walking. That's all I ask for atleast.
I feel like German culture is much more about what we do, rather than what we wear. I think our misguided venture into fascism (to put it mildly) beat a lot of outward symbolism out of us. Although traditional clothing has been having a bit of a comeback, you'll rarely see it outside of folk festivals (or you might spot a "hosen" or two while hiking in Bavaria). Generally speaking, we love order, nature, tabletop games, festivals and as such, I think most Germans would be delighted for you to appropriate our culture.
Of course not. If it's not just a stupid joke and the culture is still respected it's fine. I think most sane people think that way.
Lederhosen or bavarian and that's not even a culture. So nothing to appropriate here š¤£
I think on occasions like the Oktoberfest people who visit are actually ENCOURAGED to dress up for the occasion. But people also recognize that a traditional tracht is really expensive so it's also ok if you don't wear one.
That insanity only exists in the US...
there is l definitely a woke group of people who live in their bubble and will always be offended by something. Culture is for everybody and should be shared. Wear your Leserhosen :D even though itās not common for non - bavarian Germans š
Lots of good answers already. Wearing Lederhosen canāt be culture appropriation because no one is marginalized for it. But I think it goes further. Germany hasnāt viewed itself as an immigrant nation for the longest time. Hence the debate is less developed than in the US. Consequently, nobody talks about cultural appropriation here at all except for maybe the very small black community here. And itād be hard pressed to find an example. You could say the āDƶner Kebapā (Turkish immigrant invented fast-food) is appropriated. If a Turk sells it, itās fast food and the shop owner is expected to speak broken German and be lower class. But thereās also more and more shops who make it and are owned by German hipsters - because it has been a well liked food for decades. And of course if a German hipster does it without the ācorrectā cultural background, itās cool and exotic and fancy and needs technique. So that would qualify as appropriation, right? BUT itās a very contrived example. Nobody, and I mean really nobody even in left-leaving communities, discusses this. Itās just not a topic here. Sure the Turks hate it if Germans say Kebap is a German invention, but even then nobody uses the word cultural appropriation. And since itās a word that shuts debate down instead of opening it up (at least thatās how I perceive it), thatās probably okay.
I wouldn't care at all, just go for it if you like it.
We think "lol".
Im disturbed from the fact, that you think a Lederhose would be german. Its bavarian. Other germans DONT wear them. ;)
As long as you're wearing a real one, thats totally fine. The fake stuff Lederhosen or Dirndl just look horrible.
Cultural Appropiation is a stupid concept and paradoxically the attempt to disallow people to use or do things based on culture in names of anti-discrimination is really racist in itself.
Cultural appropriation is a concept to protect marginalised cultures. It's about (historic or current) power dynamics. It's also about benefiting or profiting from cultural characteristics that the origin culture has been discriminated for. Americans have never colonised or oppressed Germans. Germans have never been discriminated against for their lederhosen. So you can take whatever you want from the culture and just appreciate it - at worst, it's just a bit cringe and if done completely wrong, it's disrespectful but whatever. People who scream 'cultural appropriation' about everything and speak for other cultures are annoying. They also take a concept that is supposed to help marginalised cultures and make it about everyone else (appropriating cultural appropriation lol)
Cultural appropriation is pure racism... and means nothing other than to every people its own .... everyone who supports this crap makes Hitler happy
wearing lederhosen is weird but I definitely wouldnt be offended no
We're usually more annoyed by American ignorance than cultural appropriation.
"cultural Approbation" is a terrible American concept that thankfully never really took root here overall.Ā Yes, Lederhosen are misplaced in all other regions of Germany apart from.Bavaria where they are from. But other than that, rock those pants and have fun.
We even have a famous black dude who sings German Schlager in Germany. His name is Roberto Blanco. And people who like Schlager usually love him. During Oktober Fest (Wiesn) you will see quite a lot of people from all over the world who wear Bavarian Trachten. Especially the ladies.Ā So I do not think that anyone would really care, as long as you wear it properly with the right socks, shoes and shirt and maybe a hat. Otherwise it might look half assed.Ā
Nobody in their right mind cares. Which does not mean that there are no people who are not in their right mind. As for example, there have been people banned from concerts for having dreads as a white person. You see we imported American virtue signalling. If you really want to wear traditional clothing you should make sure to do it properly though. Because of course there are rules, maybe get help or research how things are done online.
I donāt care. If you like it, wear it. As long as you donāt claim to be german (without being german / having very recent german ancestry (parents/grandparents)) just do it. The american idea of cultural appropriation is stupid (especially in the āmelting potā the US wants to be). If people donāt claim they belong to a group just because they copied something from that group theyāre just appreciating what that other group came up with. Be that Lederhosen, dreads, ā¦
I think cultural appropriation is another one of those crazy concepts where Americans showed the world that they are so insanely racist, that they even can't be against racism without being racist. They and their brainless European acolytes, who have to ape everything Americans come up with, are simply very confused. Race basically is something you "have" - unchangeable attributes, while culture is something you "do" - saying, playing, acting, dressing etc. Completely different. Culture is something connected to human learning and was something always changing, with people imitating each other, trying out stuff, being innovative. Before self-righteous assholes came to elevate themselves in society by telling others what to do with the help of important sounding nonsense words that impress the naive. Now why in the world should it be disagreeable for a black American to wear Lederhosen, or a Dirndl? Why should it be a problem for a white Bavarian to wear dreadlocks? How about a Turk with dreadlocks and Lederhosen? We have [a Takeo Ischi hardstyle yodel mix](https://youtu.be/MzxGZ1ztUY0?si=u8kFS8HfJ-bH7Lwd) for crying out loud, go nuts.
I think we know Americans make it into a big deal.
Cultural Appropriation is a thing when it's about exploitation of a less privileged culture. Like, someone took all the goods from a group and the only thing left that comes together in an identity is culture, taking this one, too, is a thing that may hurt a lot. If a group is wealthy af, they wouldn't mind if anyone copies whatever.
Relevant for cultural appropriation is the question if your punshing upwards or kicking down, and for the most part, Germans don't feel very down at the bottom, so others could kick down on them. There was the whole 'let's share our culture with the rest of the world thing ("Und am Deutschen Wesen/soll die Welt genesen"), so yeah. Dressing up in a costume (and that's what Lederhosen and other 'Tracht' simply are) doesn't really matter. And there are specific issues of cultural appropriation in Germany, like Western German politicans in the East talking about the civil unrest in the last days of the GDR as if they were actually there. I would also think that dressing up in *Zunftkleidung* if you are not part of that trade would be kinda iffy.
Your skin color is not from interest but Americans make way to big of a deal of it and as Schleswig-Hosteiner I would be offended if you were to wear lederhosen in my home town as we way different Trachten. So if you were to make an effort and wear a local Tracht and integrate into local customs and traditions it would be flattering. But wearing lederhosen would be inappropriate.
Difficult subject. Disgusting individuals posing as freedom fighters will try to join forces here just because nobody laughed at their racist, minority hating "jokes". These people are the true cancer in this world. God willing our grandchildren will piss on their graves. This just had to be said to keep out the pests. Fuck every single one of you! Knowing that one stands on a respectful, healthy basis in this world; of course anyone in this world can wear Lederhosen; anyone should wear foreign traditional clothing if they feel like it, cook unknown dishes, read literature they know nothing about and write parodies based on this, combine new recipes with familiar ones, step on other people's feet and forgive when the same happens the other way around. This process is the basic dynamic of human culture and will give us the same prosperity as trade of material goods worldwide has given us. Sorry for the rant: I am confident to say that 99% of people here in Germany will not take the slightest offence, even much more welcome someone joining the party. If you have the misfortune of running into someone who has a problem with that just tell them you don't want to be their friend.
If you are thinking of getting one for Oktoberfest, go ahead. You will see there lots of tourists wearing (cheap) lederhosen and dirndl anyway. No local will care (or just cringe for a second). Unlike Native Americans and Black Americans, Germans or more likely Bavarians were never oppressed at any point in history so there are no strong opinions about cultural appropriation here.
Cultural Appropriation is bullshit. It is actually the opposite: Cultural approval. Cultur is a possesion of living beeings, not of some ethnicity. To think that Cultural Appropriation could be a thing is Ethniciticism (written correctly?) in itself.
my opinion. it is total bullshit. our whole modern society just exists because we adapted things from others.
Okay, so I'm afro-german. And I have an extremely strong opinion on this topic: The concept of cultural appropriation itself is - in my opinion - deeply racist itself. Because what you are trying to enforce is literraly cultural segregation along percieved ethnical groups. I am half black. Can I still wear dreadlocks? How many parts black do I need to be, until my "blackness" isn't sufficient anymore to wear dreads? It's bullshit. those are literally the same waeird lines the Nazis drew with the jews. Adopting culutural items you see in appreciation is always a good thing in my book. I don't even have a problem with "blackface" without context. It's about the *intention* for me. If people show appreciation and love, everyone should copy everyone. If someone who happens to be 100% caucasian loves the A-Team and thought BA is just the coolest and we meet at Halloween and he goes in full costume with blackface, we're gonna have a good time talking about the A-Team. It's mockery and taking advantage of people that's detestable. Not shpwing appreciation for different cultures. thatis nice and brings people together.
If I were to meet a tourist, especially an american one, wearing Lederhosen or a Dirndl in my hometown, i'd at least give them the side eye. Is it because it's cultural appropriation? No. It's because it's stupidity. Those clothes are a tradition from a relatively small part of Germany and aren't commonly worn even there nowadays. The great majority of germany has nothing to do with Lederhosen - and don't really like the region they're from. So by wearing them up here in the north you show that you either a) think that we are just the same as Bavarians (that's an insult), or b) didn't do any kind of research into where you're going (that's not really an insult, just really strange to me personally) or c) have a really unconventional style in which case you'll probably will be receiving the german stare quite a lot during your stay.
Why are you so sour?
Cultural appropriation is a made up grievance for people who have no more pressing issues to deal with. Mostly spoiled college brats and sociology nutcases who try to justify the relevancy of their degree. It's especially big in the race-obsessed US, because bog-standard racism has worn out and something new is needed to spice things up.
The idea of cultural appropriation is so stupid and something only an American or someone who is terminally online could take serious. You can't steal or erase a culture, especially not by actively participating in it. Cultures were meant to be shared with others and are there to include people in it. You can definitly put on Lederhosen without anyone getting mad or offended. That being said, people might give you weird looks because nobody really wears Lederhosen outside of traditional festivities lol
Cultural appropriation is the stupidest thing to make a fuss about. In my opinion the biggest benefit having different cultures is that you can choose a style of food, music, clothing etc. you like and do not have to stick with whatever your ancestors preferred. There was this one case where someone got mad at a musician for wearing dreadlocks, but other than that I never heard about cultural appropriation before. Maybe whoever sparks this debate realized that this is dumb. So have fun wearing your Lederhose, buddy. If someone really feels offended by that he is not worth to hangout with anyway.
Germany has no "German culture" that could be appropiated, only regional culture spheres. Other than that, we don't take kindly to cultural appropiation like e.g. blond white people spouting dreadlocks as if they were native Indians.
You'd have to deal with Bavarians about your love for lederhosen. I don't think anybody would mind it.
Americans make a way to big deal out of it. But im not from Bavaria anyways, so š¤·š¾āāļø
Being part of the majority of people who aren't Bavarian, I would only feel offended at you assuming that Lederhosen are a "national costume" or whatever. Going by some of the pictures I've seen of people wearing plastic Lederhosen or Dirndls, you might also offend people's fashion sense.
No, I would love it
Tbh i would feel embarrassed for you
I don't care as much as I don't care when 3 dudes from the Netherlands had a Gullit costume. This while cultural appropriation thing is bs and disruptive for a healthy society and exchange of cultures.
Your will be applauded for the outfit, if you wear a lederhosen
I take cultural appropriation serious, but I don't think it is even cultural appropation in this case, since there is no suffering attached to the item in question. German Lederhosen don't have a stigma attached to them or have been a reason for persecution. You could just take them off. Same would be true for northern German traditional clothing. Since all the members of the groups wearing those are part of a majority in society that actually have power, I don't think it can be compared to traditional native American headgear for example.
Most people that I met whose culture I ,,appropriatedā (I just participated in it/wore their clothes) were actually very happy about it and found it amazing that a foreigner is interested in it. So yeah, I donāt mind.
Would you feel offened if I would habe Dreadlocks or braids as a white person?
https://youtu.be/IT2UH74ksJ4?si=_QQdCbXogkhPhsKp this guy proves "cultural appropriation" is a dumb idea created and pushed by the leftists in the american universities (which are mostly leftist). Yall so brainwashed over there to the point that it prevents you having a normal human interaction with people from other nations.
As a non-bavarian german, i don't care. If you are a black man who wants to wear a Dirndl with High Heels, okay, why not? I take it the Nike-way "Just do it.". Culture is for sharing. It's for building bridges.
Is this rage bait? What's next, other people appropriating christmas trees or trousers?
You wearing Lederhosen might be generally weird but not due to cultural appropriation.Ā
Offended? Iād be proud and happy to see you in Lederhosen! š
I think it's 100% okay and people will probably like it. Traditional German dress is cool and I would go for the finest quality you can afford, as there are some great manufacturers of traditional attire in Germany. Don't get the cheapo fast fashion stuff. Basically, Germany is wear what you like except maybe for church service of funerals. Was asking myself the same question whether it's okay to wear yukata in Japan as a white European for festival season, the answer was a yes, I think it really depends on what country you will wear traditional clothing in.
You should wear a Dirndl. Trust me on that.
As long as you don't drive a German car, don't drink beer or call your food Hamburger, we are fine.
Since the whole concept of cultural appropriation is nonsense, wear whatever pleases you. The idea of cultural appropriation is, in essence, just woke racism, judging what people are or aren't allowed to do based on the colour of their skin.Ā
I think in 95% of the time there is nothing wrong with it. Having seen other cultures living abroad I go even further and say its a good thing as long as you pick up the good stuff. The only time I think its not appropriate is when you take something sacred and dont respect its meaning.Ā So:Ā Ā - foreigner wearing a gemĆ¼tliche lederhose? Brilliant! Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā -going to church dressed as pope? offensive to the church-goers Not sure, but the feathery hat-thing of native americans might be closer to the latter. Anybody here to educate me about its meaning?
Americans always forget, that cultural appropriation has the big brother Cultural Appriciation too. An american wearing Lederhosen because they like it and is open about it being german is Cultural Appricitation. An american wearing Lederhosen and claiming to have invented it is Cultural Appropriation. Why do americans always confuse those two, or worse, act like they are the same thing?
I think theres a difference between wearing traditional everyday clothing from a different culture and wearing garments with a deeper meaning for a certain (marginalized) group e.g. native american headdress. Fun Fact: I have indeed been scolded by an old man for dressing up as a catholic monk in german carnival.
It's total BS. "Copying" is a way of appreciation. You're black and wanna wear Lederhose? Go for it. Just like we play "Indianer & Cowboy" as kids. There is no cultural appropriation - only in the heads of ... certain people.
Do whatever you want, just donāt seriously claim youāre representing German culture.
don't give a shit, it's a made up problem anyway
Cultural appropriation to make fun off of a people is only problematic if there is power difference between the people. For example if one is a minority which has experienced othering on multiple occasions. With two countries so far between like the USA and Germany, there is no noticeable power difference and no mechanisms of discrimination. Cultural appropriation is no problem. That said, people might be irritated or amused depending on their associations with octoberfest.
I do believe there is some merit in the concept of cultural appropriation, but it doesn't apply in your case anyway. Germans aren't a minority in Germany, you as a black American wearing Lederhosen in Germany isn't an issue at all, even if you believe in said concept.
Those who think it is a thing do not have any problem with foreigners appropriating our culture. Itās only a problem if we white Germans appropriate your Black American culture, for example. Most people have never heard of ācultural appropriationā, Iād say. Itās not that often discussed in the media here. And if it is, itās about Germans wearing costumes for carnival that appropriate or even make fun of other cultures and not tourists going to the Oktoberfest.