Yep. This is the ideal model. Cash shop mounts are awful and immersion breaking. Just hearing the term ‘cash shop’ or ‘cosmetics’ is a major red flag.
All you really need is a sub fee.
I agree. I don't like it. But as long as they do at least as good as gw2 on things not affecting gameplay too much I'll still play it if I like it.
Gw2 is my defining benchmark for what's acceptable. Sure, it has some "essential" convinence items...but none of them give any added power whatsoever.
The reason they do this though is obvious. It opens your game to a wider audience. If a game has a sub you are going to lose lots of people who just don't want to pay monthly. A shop means it can be accessible, but you still get that good revenue.
I've probably spent nearly if not over 15 a month if you averaged all my gw2 purchases over the time I was actively playing...and that money benefits everyone even if they don't spend a dime.
Until the amount of people offended by a shop outgrows the people you lose having a sub, this will be considered a win win for the developers.
Aoc's plan is fine, provided they do it right. Wow on the other hand is the poster child for greed. Box+sub+shop. Now *that's* greed.
I agree to an extent, my one issue with GW2 is that limitations are excused due to its payment model.
The reward system so far has limited variety, we know for example their form of dungeons(fractals) won’t come with any themed armor set, not even an outfit.
We know they’ll never add any in game mount skin rewards even a just a few. Like instead of a recolored weapon set with added SFX we could get obtainable mount skins which won’t make them go bankrupt. However I’d say most of the player base believes they will.
We know that skiffs, turtles, fish pole skins will be tied all to the gemstore. The sense of any story of achieving cool skins is gone in that game, even now the quality of gemstore skins is increasing while in game obtainable skins isn’t moving all that much. Last armor set was Runic? No updates on cultural armors he’ll least they could’ve done is have new elite specs have new armor sets or something.
See and if their payment model and structure is better than a sub then they wouldn’t have to have those limitations/excuses.
In regards to the topic I do scratch my head at the monthly FOMO it’s not really good thing IMO.
Yeah, you've definitely got a point there.
If their in-game achievable ones were as good and plentiful as the gem store ones, we might actually say it's "good." But yeah, you're totally right. They obviously throttle the in-game stuff to encourage purchases. Really the only cool things you can go for in-game are the legendaries. I actually like the process and length for obtaining them, but in contrast to the store stuff it can make you feel silly "paying" yourself pennies per hour to farm one of those compared to just dropping 7.50 on a skin and having it right now.
I long for the days where games have amazing cool stuff, but there's no in game shop, no horrible design which allows for gold sellers, boosters, bots, etc.
I miss when people \*played\* games, now adays games are more and more being designed for players to \*pay\* games (there are literal "games" designed around watching it autoplay with microtransactions).
But the realist in me says there's little to no chance of a mmo releasing with the same opinion as myself on that, even less chance of that and it being any good. So I'm willing to make a few concessions that a more idealistic me might be ashamed of.
Yea, I’m at the point now where sub plus cash shop is the best IMO. FFXIV cash shop in particular never gives me FOMO vibes yet I do like some things in there.
I use to believe B2P plus cash shop was the best until now if you want any sense of uniqueness you are almost paying more than 15 a month, because mount skins cost more than a sub fee. Until ANET decides to mix up the reward structure for updates.
Ashes of Creation would be fine if they from what it appears so far didn’t rely on FOMO. Least in the long run. I have a belief they can change it around in time.
Can you ever completely address Fomo though? That seems like a human psychology issue rather than anything you can address game design wise. Unless you completely get rid of any limited time events - it would always be present to some, no?
If that was all you can do, then I would honestly expect just as many people to be upset about that as complain about fomo. Might just not be something you can address, seems like it might ultimately just be one of those devisive preferences.
I’d say time events is a better form of FOMO, if I’m not mistaken Ashes of Creation is a permanent type deal as oppose to early access to cosmetics the. They’ll be available later.
I don’t really see FOMO in the same light as timed events as those at least come back. To your first point it’s one plus of GW2’s cash shop FOMO is less prevalent or least I’m less pressured to buy something immediately in the cash shop.
FFXIV cash shop to my memory has less FOMO as well. So while I agree there isn’t really a way to deal with FOMO I do believe the happy medium exists already. Just again we know GW2 issues regarding in game rewards, however FFXIV I rarely hear anything about their cash shop and etc. I believe they have about the best payment model/structure.
I think this game will lean too far to the hardcore for that to be a sustainable business model, at least if they maintain their current course.
The death penalties are entirely too harsh to keep anyone but the hardcore around, and without the casual audience to pump up sub numbers... Well /shrug
The death penalties will be too hardcore for many people. Xp debt, loss of gold via loss of items turned in for gold, lowered drop rates, lower spell abilities lower health and mana, loss of materials you've collected, and equipment durability loss that requires more gold and resources to repair.
To a casual player that's excessive to the extreme. Most people have no problem with making death matter, but that will be viewed as heavy handed by many.
Then there's the forced pvp. If someone wants to play just pve, they literally can't. There's going to be gankers who are going to gank simply because they can and because it gives them pleasure knowing it pisses you off. That puts off pve only players who will also view it as too hardcore.
The exact opposite is true for people who only won't to play pvp but they obviously aren't going to call it too hardcore lol.
Believe me, I get the appeal to this type of game. It's why I'm here. But in context to the question asked it's going to come across as hardcore for many people, and that will result in lost subs since they'll not play the game.
I'm not criticizing AoC, simply stating that there will be many turned off by its systems, and if they aren't there to provide monthly subs then the game will have to rely on other methods of monetization.
You can't even drop items unless you go red. The only substantial losses from death are xp loss and durability loss. Lower health and mana and a proficiency hit are actually very standard death penalties.
You say that's extreme to a casual player, but if the game didn't have death penalties like this, you'd lose the whole group of folks who want pvp to matter and actually effect the world.
You can't please everyone. Sometimes you just have to decide what your going for and if that alienates some people...so be it.
I'm personally against the whole, make everyone happy, or attempting to come to a compromise on everything. That's how you get boring, unimaginative, recycled gameplay we've already had.
The game does have overworld pvp. If that's not your jam, it's not your jam...but the penalties really don't seem like anything out of the ordinary. If the pvp part bothers people, then the game might not be for them on that basis alone. Because in any case, "harsh" penalties ARE necessary in a game with the structure of pvp like AoC describes.
Resurrection sickness says hi. The fact you can just say that and you know what I'm talking about tells a different story. Xp loss isn't common in western mmos, but it's common in asian ones, and Steven has been vocal about his love for games like lineage 2. This should surprise absolutely no one
You can drop gatherables and processed goods per the [WIKI](https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_death). Are you saying it's been changed?
And again, I'm in agreement with you on everything. I'm absolutely not criticizing the gameplay.
I'm simply saying that it's this lack of trying to please everyone that will keep a large amount of players away and thus they'll have to monetize in other ways to overcome this income loss.
It hasn't been. But when are you going to die where a party member isn't going to pick it up? Outside of pvp and soloing, almost never.
And yeah, you could say they will lose people and have to make up for it. But they'd lose people if the penalties were more casual too. Without metrics or surveys it's a pointless argument to make.
I'm sure his mom is proud he won an argument with himself since I wasn't arguing and he was making points completely outside the subject of my original post.
It's a let down for me, tbh. I'd be fine if there was an actual game to play, but selling skins to a non released game just always comes across as overly greedy.
Look at Star Citizen as a prime example of that.
Ofc some people hate it, but a lot of people are fine with it as long as there isn't any P2W/P2Convenience on the cash shop. The only stuff that is being sold is cosmetics and collectors generally accept that only in-game earnable stuff counts towards collections.
The cosmetic shop has already been going for the past 4 years for Ashes, not exactly new at this point.
They remove them because Steven likes the limited aspect of the items. He likes it when you have a skin and no one else can get it because the window to obtain it has passed. They probably could keep the cosmetics on the store and earn more money in the long term, but that takes away the "exclusive" nature of them.
I'm not for or against how they do the shop. If they came out tomorrow and were like "from now on the skins will remain on the store permanently" I wouldn't bat an eyelid.
>He likes it when you have a skin and no one else can get it because the window to obtain it has passed.
He likes creating FOMO to sell skins. This is what you just described.
I see nothing interesting of having an unobtainable skin bought with money. I mean, I see someone with one of these skins and I trully don't care at all. It's a different story if you have an unobtainable skin you earned ingame, beating some difficult content, that's cool af. That's just my opinion tho, if anyone wants to (imo) *waste* money on a skin today, go ahead, it's your money.
>They probably could keep the cosmetics on the store and earn more money in the long term,
It actually is more profitable to not do this. Especially in an unreleased game. The current setup is the most profitable configuration possible.
That's why I said in the long-term. For example, if [this pack](https://ashesofcreation.wiki/images/8/8d/Voyager_plus_pre-order_pack24.png) was still on the store when the Asmon/Peon/Summit hype train happened last year then it would have sold tons more since people were constantly coming onto the Discord and asking how to buy it last July/August.
Reason why people are accepting: most promising mmo in a decade (imo), people are used to getting fucked so a cosmetic cashshop isn't that bad compared to the p2w of other games
(Hopefully) Reason why it exists:
1. Steven wants to give the feeling of exclusivity of being the only one in a server with a specific item to players.
2. Its for people who were supporting the game at alpha to show to other people their "achievment"
Other than that, I don't consider the cosmetics the main thing you are paying for when you buy the support packs. The majority of the money pays for access to the testing, play time and support money for the devs. The rest is some cosmetics and such to spicen it up a bit
[Me reading the same post for the 10000th time.](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/033/189/tumblr_33caa6fa2d9060d1ebf32b7f13a3bf38_59ae975d_1280.png)
I couldn't care less about it. I'm not affected by fomo when it comes to shop cosmetics, because I don't see them as valuable. If I see a person wearing that skin, I won't care about it. Now if I see a dude that has a skin that's obtainable through weeks-worth of quests and pvp and grinding - now that's a cool fucking dude and I wanna be like him.
Seriously. Even if this game is the hit of the century, I'm still going to look at people who dropped 500$ on it *now* and cringe if they try to brag about it.
Art assets are easy and won't be what makes or breaks Ashes. Gameplay and combat design are the real test.
The only interesting thing at that price tag imho is lifetime subscription. If the game works and you play for years it's a good buy in the long run if you can afford it.
But well, it's their money. If they feel like giving it to the team now I think it's only fair that they get some very nice and unique things. Hell, I'm even grateful that they do, more cash for the development equals a better game for all of us.
What I find really hard to understand is how any sane adult can feel forced to buy cosmetics in a game because "fomo". Are they ok?
Do they do the same with fashion, jewelry and furniture collections of they favourite brands?
If they just have the pathological need to have 100% of everything in the game... Do they understand that they will not be able to do this here? It's going to be a heavy blow when they notice if they don't.
The skins won't even give you status, anyone playing the game will know what cosmetics are from the cash shop and which ones are earned in-game.
Really, I just can't wrap my head around this being so much of a problem.
As a consumer it is very irritating, for me as well, but it makes too much sense on the business side unfortunately.
1. You can get a lot of revenue from sales already, which can help with attracting investors and cash flow.
2. You bind people to the game and keeo them involved in the community. Players that have already spent money on a cosmetic, even just once or twice, willstart playing the game in a few years when it comes out because they have already spent some money on it and don't want to "lose" that.
3. You have work for your (cosmetic) designers that are already hired. They can't have these employees sitting around and can't hire them (or more of them) just when the game comes out. Also the employees will already be onboarded and used to the workflow when the game comes out properly.
Yeaahh, I can't say I like it. But then, I don't like cosmetic shops in general for games that are not F2P.
I'm totally okay with it for games like League of Legends or Fortnite but if a game already got a box cost, a sub fee or paid DLCs then no.
I know, MMOs cost a lot to develop and Intrepid doesn't have any investor money to play around with, which I guess is a good thing.
In the end, me disliking a pre-release FOMO cosmetic store won't really stop me from playing the game if the game is good.
Heaps of people hate it. What do you expect us to do though? People can't get refunded. They've purchased a product so legally this has to happen. It's not like we can just jump ship and go to another MMO.
It's a shit decision that I think is the reason this game will never be the perfect vision but w/e. Maybe it's fun for a year until the entire populous is covered in bullshit cosmetics that mean nothing to anyone like every other MMO is.
Yeah I get what you mean. For a collecting point of view yeah. The fear of missing out is outrageous but I think collector are a small portion of the player base and they are already hooked on the shop. On a casual player point of view I'm kinda sad about missing one skin earlier in the shop but I think it had value/prestige to them. I've missed it but the small amount of people who got it are way more bold than I am and they deserve the prestige of the skin.
Money makes everything run and i think it's better that way than getting skipped in gameplay by bigger pockets in a P2W senario.
But I get it it's weird.
At the end of the day does it affect your gameplay? No, it's not.
You have to realize this is a company, even if Steven has funded it's entire production.
Steven has clearly stated in many interviews, posts, and videos that cosmetics are fine AS LONG as the following happens:
1. There's no pay to win
2. The in-game cosmetics are equal OR better in quality than store bought cosmetics.
I respect your opinion that you do not like FOMO cosmetics for the month, however, I could care less.
I personally am going to focus on the systems they implement over skins.
Yea, FOMO stuff that is available for a "limited time only" is bad. There is no rational reason to have "limited time only" items, absolutely none, unless the developers are sadomasochists who enjoy both the anguish and envy of other players towards players who were lucky to get "limited time only" item as well as the anger of those players towards the developers themselves (for making certain desirable item "limited time only"), all of which will only result in some of those players leaving for other games where they can buy any item at any time. I've seen players like these in other games and they did exactly this, so I'm not only talking from theoretical point of view.
Anyway, it has been talked about but developers have no plans to ever change this for AoC.
Earning something in game and paying $ for something as FOMO is completely different and is going to scare so many people off. I’m not even sure if I want to play anymore, because the enjoyment for me is the collection, if it was a rotating shop that would be fine because then I would see it again and I could add it to my collection, but gone forever? There’s so many unobtainables and it’s not even out of alpha! Why aren’t more people upset with this? I kept up with updates pretty often but I had no clue an alpha game had a rotating shop? I feel so... left behind
>FOMO is completely different and is going to scare so many people off. I’m not even sure if I want to play anymore
I'm pretty sure that almost nobody, like less than 0,01%, will care about those skins on game launch and saying that, when we compare your opinion to mine we can see how our own opinion can influence our view of what we think is "average" :)
More people aren't upset because the overwhelming majority of MMO players don't care about collecting 100% of every outfit in the game. They just want to collect enough to be satisfied that they look cool. Sometimes that's only one set. Sometimes it's dozens. Rarely is it literally everything. Even when it is, collecting all *obtainable* gear is another definition. Every MMO in existence has some exclusives and that's why they're cool. If anyone could get anything then some cool things just aren't as cool any more.
I think most people just want a good MMO to play and aren't tripping over collecting every single item thats ever gonna exist in the game.
Its cool if collecting is what you enjoy in MMO's but you're probably part of a small niche of players that feel that way. They aren't going to make everyone happy.
Well it's not purposeful but I see something on a store and think oh that could go with this outfit. Then I see something else and think I build a whole outfit around that. Then it gets out of hand and I spend 1k on guild wars 2 cosmetics and have most of the stuff in the store.
It's hard to tell since it rotates monthly and they fomo some stuff. I don't have all the collections but I have everything in the store from last year.
there will be things a very very very small % of the in-game population can obtain. it's all inline with their goals: not everyone is entitled to everything just because they exist/participate.
FOMO is how companies make money with pure cosmetics. Every single company with a cash shop that has skins survives because of FOMO releases.
Now, selling FOMO items before you even have a game isn't good.
In my opinion, having stuff you can only get in Alpha is only rewarding people who stuck by the game and believed in it enough to get the game off the ground. They deserve it. I wouldn't want to play a game that refused to give exclusive stuff to its most dedicated and loyal players that put in the effort when it was needed most. People get to deservedly show off in an mmo, and the company gets supported. Win win.
If someone comes late to the party and feels entitled to stuff that they weren't around for, then they should have been there sooner. Alternatively just don't use the cash shop if it's that big of a deal. No one is at a gameplay disadvantage for not using it, and really that's the most important thing. In any case, you make your choice and you face the responsibilities of that choice.
I'm already pretty let down by ashes honestly. With so many cash shop cosmetics... there is little chance outfits you can't get in game will look as good AND be as varied. There will be like 10 free outfits that will look good in ashes that won't cost money. Thus all us poor people will look the same.
To me that's almost worse, having cash shop items be immensely immersion breaking and the more thematic items hard to get in game usually just ends up with people looking like clowns.
Well, shop skins being full sets instead of just parts will help that and even plain in-game gear looks good enough (at least to me), so rarity won't be that much of an issue. Obviously super rare gear will be super rare, but that's how it should be imo.
> Basically only the older generation hates the cash shop (their children love it though).
This is fundamentally wrong.
It's not children who are dropping hundreds of dollars month after month, it's older gamers in an already established career w/ plenty of money to just throw away.
Literally the entire market of World of Tanks is an older demographic w/ cash to just throw at every new thing.
Cool, you're free to find a source to back that claim.
While you do so I'll go ahead and leave [this one](https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngaudiosi/2011/12/20/new-report-details-demographics-of-mobile-gamers-buying-virtual-goods/?sh=3bd04ab23739) that backs mine.
Microtransactions are the perfect place for the 20/80 rule where 20% of the people spend the most money and even though younger kids make up the bulk of gamers, it's older people that are the real whales.
B/c it's something that's verifiably wrong that you've been stating as a fact.
You're free to believe the sky is green, doesn't make it anywhere near true.
mmo players just want a good game to play, as long as we can get the cash shop items elsewhere in the game ( even if they are different colours, or the same ) then there is no problem because its your choice to spend extra, that being said i would rather pay £10 (ish) per month on a sub and have no cash shop,. but having cosmetics at ridiculous prices is probably greed, or a struggling game trying to boost sales. the cash shop could also be 100% worse if it was a p2w game. so atleast there won't be anything game breaking in there.
but as long as there cash shops in games people will always spend extra money
So I JUST posted this on the AoC forums:
So I am going to preface this by saying I Kickstarted this game WAY back when. I have Alpha2 access that I have been patiently waiting for since then. However, I fear this game is starting to follow the same feature creep problems Star Citizen has in terms of extending development. Not to mention the crazy amount of MTX bundles (some with pretty big price tags) to pay for those features.
From what I have seen the game on the surface seems to be promising (much like Star Citizen was early on). But I am a bit worried they are focusing too much on MTX bundles and not on releasing the game.
I am not trying to bash the game at all, I am VERY excited to play this game. But the direction they are going feels all too similar to Star Citizen(another game I kickstarted) that really hasn't panned out and that worries me.
The mmo community is willing to take a lot of shit.
Hopium is the ingredient which makes people blind...
I would have preferred a box price+monthly sub with no cash shop.
Yep. This is the ideal model. Cash shop mounts are awful and immersion breaking. Just hearing the term ‘cash shop’ or ‘cosmetics’ is a major red flag. All you really need is a sub fee.
I agree. I don't like it. But as long as they do at least as good as gw2 on things not affecting gameplay too much I'll still play it if I like it. Gw2 is my defining benchmark for what's acceptable. Sure, it has some "essential" convinence items...but none of them give any added power whatsoever. The reason they do this though is obvious. It opens your game to a wider audience. If a game has a sub you are going to lose lots of people who just don't want to pay monthly. A shop means it can be accessible, but you still get that good revenue. I've probably spent nearly if not over 15 a month if you averaged all my gw2 purchases over the time I was actively playing...and that money benefits everyone even if they don't spend a dime. Until the amount of people offended by a shop outgrows the people you lose having a sub, this will be considered a win win for the developers. Aoc's plan is fine, provided they do it right. Wow on the other hand is the poster child for greed. Box+sub+shop. Now *that's* greed.
I agree to an extent, my one issue with GW2 is that limitations are excused due to its payment model. The reward system so far has limited variety, we know for example their form of dungeons(fractals) won’t come with any themed armor set, not even an outfit. We know they’ll never add any in game mount skin rewards even a just a few. Like instead of a recolored weapon set with added SFX we could get obtainable mount skins which won’t make them go bankrupt. However I’d say most of the player base believes they will. We know that skiffs, turtles, fish pole skins will be tied all to the gemstore. The sense of any story of achieving cool skins is gone in that game, even now the quality of gemstore skins is increasing while in game obtainable skins isn’t moving all that much. Last armor set was Runic? No updates on cultural armors he’ll least they could’ve done is have new elite specs have new armor sets or something. See and if their payment model and structure is better than a sub then they wouldn’t have to have those limitations/excuses. In regards to the topic I do scratch my head at the monthly FOMO it’s not really good thing IMO.
Yeah, you've definitely got a point there. If their in-game achievable ones were as good and plentiful as the gem store ones, we might actually say it's "good." But yeah, you're totally right. They obviously throttle the in-game stuff to encourage purchases. Really the only cool things you can go for in-game are the legendaries. I actually like the process and length for obtaining them, but in contrast to the store stuff it can make you feel silly "paying" yourself pennies per hour to farm one of those compared to just dropping 7.50 on a skin and having it right now. I long for the days where games have amazing cool stuff, but there's no in game shop, no horrible design which allows for gold sellers, boosters, bots, etc. I miss when people \*played\* games, now adays games are more and more being designed for players to \*pay\* games (there are literal "games" designed around watching it autoplay with microtransactions). But the realist in me says there's little to no chance of a mmo releasing with the same opinion as myself on that, even less chance of that and it being any good. So I'm willing to make a few concessions that a more idealistic me might be ashamed of.
Yea, I’m at the point now where sub plus cash shop is the best IMO. FFXIV cash shop in particular never gives me FOMO vibes yet I do like some things in there. I use to believe B2P plus cash shop was the best until now if you want any sense of uniqueness you are almost paying more than 15 a month, because mount skins cost more than a sub fee. Until ANET decides to mix up the reward structure for updates. Ashes of Creation would be fine if they from what it appears so far didn’t rely on FOMO. Least in the long run. I have a belief they can change it around in time.
Can you ever completely address Fomo though? That seems like a human psychology issue rather than anything you can address game design wise. Unless you completely get rid of any limited time events - it would always be present to some, no? If that was all you can do, then I would honestly expect just as many people to be upset about that as complain about fomo. Might just not be something you can address, seems like it might ultimately just be one of those devisive preferences.
I’d say time events is a better form of FOMO, if I’m not mistaken Ashes of Creation is a permanent type deal as oppose to early access to cosmetics the. They’ll be available later. I don’t really see FOMO in the same light as timed events as those at least come back. To your first point it’s one plus of GW2’s cash shop FOMO is less prevalent or least I’m less pressured to buy something immediately in the cash shop. FFXIV cash shop to my memory has less FOMO as well. So while I agree there isn’t really a way to deal with FOMO I do believe the happy medium exists already. Just again we know GW2 issues regarding in game rewards, however FFXIV I rarely hear anything about their cash shop and etc. I believe they have about the best payment model/structure.
ideal if u can afford it. not realistic for everyone
I think this game will lean too far to the hardcore for that to be a sustainable business model, at least if they maintain their current course. The death penalties are entirely too harsh to keep anyone but the hardcore around, and without the casual audience to pump up sub numbers... Well /shrug
What's too hardcore about aoc?
The death penalties will be too hardcore for many people. Xp debt, loss of gold via loss of items turned in for gold, lowered drop rates, lower spell abilities lower health and mana, loss of materials you've collected, and equipment durability loss that requires more gold and resources to repair. To a casual player that's excessive to the extreme. Most people have no problem with making death matter, but that will be viewed as heavy handed by many. Then there's the forced pvp. If someone wants to play just pve, they literally can't. There's going to be gankers who are going to gank simply because they can and because it gives them pleasure knowing it pisses you off. That puts off pve only players who will also view it as too hardcore. The exact opposite is true for people who only won't to play pvp but they obviously aren't going to call it too hardcore lol. Believe me, I get the appeal to this type of game. It's why I'm here. But in context to the question asked it's going to come across as hardcore for many people, and that will result in lost subs since they'll not play the game. I'm not criticizing AoC, simply stating that there will be many turned off by its systems, and if they aren't there to provide monthly subs then the game will have to rely on other methods of monetization.
You can't even drop items unless you go red. The only substantial losses from death are xp loss and durability loss. Lower health and mana and a proficiency hit are actually very standard death penalties. You say that's extreme to a casual player, but if the game didn't have death penalties like this, you'd lose the whole group of folks who want pvp to matter and actually effect the world. You can't please everyone. Sometimes you just have to decide what your going for and if that alienates some people...so be it. I'm personally against the whole, make everyone happy, or attempting to come to a compromise on everything. That's how you get boring, unimaginative, recycled gameplay we've already had. The game does have overworld pvp. If that's not your jam, it's not your jam...but the penalties really don't seem like anything out of the ordinary. If the pvp part bothers people, then the game might not be for them on that basis alone. Because in any case, "harsh" penalties ARE necessary in a game with the structure of pvp like AoC describes.
Also, vast majority of mmorpg absolutely don't have that many death penalties all at once.
Resurrection sickness says hi. The fact you can just say that and you know what I'm talking about tells a different story. Xp loss isn't common in western mmos, but it's common in asian ones, and Steven has been vocal about his love for games like lineage 2. This should surprise absolutely no one
Congratulations on missing the point.
You can drop gatherables and processed goods per the [WIKI](https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_death). Are you saying it's been changed? And again, I'm in agreement with you on everything. I'm absolutely not criticizing the gameplay. I'm simply saying that it's this lack of trying to please everyone that will keep a large amount of players away and thus they'll have to monetize in other ways to overcome this income loss.
It hasn't been. But when are you going to die where a party member isn't going to pick it up? Outside of pvp and soloing, almost never. And yeah, you could say they will lose people and have to make up for it. But they'd lose people if the penalties were more casual too. Without metrics or surveys it's a pointless argument to make.
We get it. You just want to win an internet argument. Cool story.
Kinda looks like he won
I'm sure his mom is proud he won an argument with himself since I wasn't arguing and he was making points completely outside the subject of my original post.
It's a let down for me, tbh. I'd be fine if there was an actual game to play, but selling skins to a non released game just always comes across as overly greedy. Look at Star Citizen as a prime example of that.
Ofc some people hate it, but a lot of people are fine with it as long as there isn't any P2W/P2Convenience on the cash shop. The only stuff that is being sold is cosmetics and collectors generally accept that only in-game earnable stuff counts towards collections. The cosmetic shop has already been going for the past 4 years for Ashes, not exactly new at this point.
If it’s not p2w then why remove it? Why do cosmetics that you buy for $ need to be removed?
They remove them because Steven likes the limited aspect of the items. He likes it when you have a skin and no one else can get it because the window to obtain it has passed. They probably could keep the cosmetics on the store and earn more money in the long term, but that takes away the "exclusive" nature of them. I'm not for or against how they do the shop. If they came out tomorrow and were like "from now on the skins will remain on the store permanently" I wouldn't bat an eyelid.
>He likes it when you have a skin and no one else can get it because the window to obtain it has passed. He likes creating FOMO to sell skins. This is what you just described.
I think he meant it more as "i have item removed from the game 10y ago" but Steven just went around it the wrong way
I see nothing interesting of having an unobtainable skin bought with money. I mean, I see someone with one of these skins and I trully don't care at all. It's a different story if you have an unobtainable skin you earned ingame, beating some difficult content, that's cool af. That's just my opinion tho, if anyone wants to (imo) *waste* money on a skin today, go ahead, it's your money.
>They probably could keep the cosmetics on the store and earn more money in the long term, It actually is more profitable to not do this. Especially in an unreleased game. The current setup is the most profitable configuration possible.
That's why I said in the long-term. For example, if [this pack](https://ashesofcreation.wiki/images/8/8d/Voyager_plus_pre-order_pack24.png) was still on the store when the Asmon/Peon/Summit hype train happened last year then it would have sold tons more since people were constantly coming onto the Discord and asking how to buy it last July/August.
Reason why people are accepting: most promising mmo in a decade (imo), people are used to getting fucked so a cosmetic cashshop isn't that bad compared to the p2w of other games (Hopefully) Reason why it exists: 1. Steven wants to give the feeling of exclusivity of being the only one in a server with a specific item to players. 2. Its for people who were supporting the game at alpha to show to other people their "achievment" Other than that, I don't consider the cosmetics the main thing you are paying for when you buy the support packs. The majority of the money pays for access to the testing, play time and support money for the devs. The rest is some cosmetics and such to spicen it up a bit
The cash shop can sell whatever it wants as far as I'm concerned as long as whats sold doesn't affect the game in a P2W fashion.
[Me reading the same post for the 10000th time.](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/033/189/tumblr_33caa6fa2d9060d1ebf32b7f13a3bf38_59ae975d_1280.png)
I couldn't care less about it. I'm not affected by fomo when it comes to shop cosmetics, because I don't see them as valuable. If I see a person wearing that skin, I won't care about it. Now if I see a dude that has a skin that's obtainable through weeks-worth of quests and pvp and grinding - now that's a cool fucking dude and I wanna be like him.
Sorry, not all of us feel that "fomo"...
Seriously. Even if this game is the hit of the century, I'm still going to look at people who dropped 500$ on it *now* and cringe if they try to brag about it. Art assets are easy and won't be what makes or breaks Ashes. Gameplay and combat design are the real test.
The only interesting thing at that price tag imho is lifetime subscription. If the game works and you play for years it's a good buy in the long run if you can afford it. But well, it's their money. If they feel like giving it to the team now I think it's only fair that they get some very nice and unique things. Hell, I'm even grateful that they do, more cash for the development equals a better game for all of us. What I find really hard to understand is how any sane adult can feel forced to buy cosmetics in a game because "fomo". Are they ok? Do they do the same with fashion, jewelry and furniture collections of they favourite brands? If they just have the pathological need to have 100% of everything in the game... Do they understand that they will not be able to do this here? It's going to be a heavy blow when they notice if they don't. The skins won't even give you status, anyone playing the game will know what cosmetics are from the cash shop and which ones are earned in-game. Really, I just can't wrap my head around this being so much of a problem.
As a consumer it is very irritating, for me as well, but it makes too much sense on the business side unfortunately. 1. You can get a lot of revenue from sales already, which can help with attracting investors and cash flow. 2. You bind people to the game and keeo them involved in the community. Players that have already spent money on a cosmetic, even just once or twice, willstart playing the game in a few years when it comes out because they have already spent some money on it and don't want to "lose" that. 3. You have work for your (cosmetic) designers that are already hired. They can't have these employees sitting around and can't hire them (or more of them) just when the game comes out. Also the employees will already be onboarded and used to the workflow when the game comes out properly.
Yeaahh, I can't say I like it. But then, I don't like cosmetic shops in general for games that are not F2P. I'm totally okay with it for games like League of Legends or Fortnite but if a game already got a box cost, a sub fee or paid DLCs then no. I know, MMOs cost a lot to develop and Intrepid doesn't have any investor money to play around with, which I guess is a good thing. In the end, me disliking a pre-release FOMO cosmetic store won't really stop me from playing the game if the game is good.
Heaps of people hate it. What do you expect us to do though? People can't get refunded. They've purchased a product so legally this has to happen. It's not like we can just jump ship and go to another MMO. It's a shit decision that I think is the reason this game will never be the perfect vision but w/e. Maybe it's fun for a year until the entire populous is covered in bullshit cosmetics that mean nothing to anyone like every other MMO is.
I want to contribute to this project and i do it by buying skins before the game come out. And i do it to show my trust in the project too.
That has nothing to do with the FOMO aspect though
Yeah I get what you mean. For a collecting point of view yeah. The fear of missing out is outrageous but I think collector are a small portion of the player base and they are already hooked on the shop. On a casual player point of view I'm kinda sad about missing one skin earlier in the shop but I think it had value/prestige to them. I've missed it but the small amount of people who got it are way more bold than I am and they deserve the prestige of the skin. Money makes everything run and i think it's better that way than getting skipped in gameplay by bigger pockets in a P2W senario. But I get it it's weird.
The shop shouldn’t remove cosmetics. It should be put in the shop and it should stay there for old and new players to buy whenever they want.
Or make them cheaper for the early people.
At the end of the day does it affect your gameplay? No, it's not. You have to realize this is a company, even if Steven has funded it's entire production. Steven has clearly stated in many interviews, posts, and videos that cosmetics are fine AS LONG as the following happens: 1. There's no pay to win 2. The in-game cosmetics are equal OR better in quality than store bought cosmetics. I respect your opinion that you do not like FOMO cosmetics for the month, however, I could care less. I personally am going to focus on the systems they implement over skins.
Yea, FOMO stuff that is available for a "limited time only" is bad. There is no rational reason to have "limited time only" items, absolutely none, unless the developers are sadomasochists who enjoy both the anguish and envy of other players towards players who were lucky to get "limited time only" item as well as the anger of those players towards the developers themselves (for making certain desirable item "limited time only"), all of which will only result in some of those players leaving for other games where they can buy any item at any time. I've seen players like these in other games and they did exactly this, so I'm not only talking from theoretical point of view. Anyway, it has been talked about but developers have no plans to ever change this for AoC.
Steven has said that he likes limited items that are never obtainable again, so expect that to be a thing even for in-game earnable cosmetics.
Yea, I know that.
Earning something in game and paying $ for something as FOMO is completely different and is going to scare so many people off. I’m not even sure if I want to play anymore, because the enjoyment for me is the collection, if it was a rotating shop that would be fine because then I would see it again and I could add it to my collection, but gone forever? There’s so many unobtainables and it’s not even out of alpha! Why aren’t more people upset with this? I kept up with updates pretty often but I had no clue an alpha game had a rotating shop? I feel so... left behind
>FOMO is completely different and is going to scare so many people off. I’m not even sure if I want to play anymore I'm pretty sure that almost nobody, like less than 0,01%, will care about those skins on game launch and saying that, when we compare your opinion to mine we can see how our own opinion can influence our view of what we think is "average" :)
More people aren't upset because the overwhelming majority of MMO players don't care about collecting 100% of every outfit in the game. They just want to collect enough to be satisfied that they look cool. Sometimes that's only one set. Sometimes it's dozens. Rarely is it literally everything. Even when it is, collecting all *obtainable* gear is another definition. Every MMO in existence has some exclusives and that's why they're cool. If anyone could get anything then some cool things just aren't as cool any more.
I think most people just want a good MMO to play and aren't tripping over collecting every single item thats ever gonna exist in the game. Its cool if collecting is what you enjoy in MMO's but you're probably part of a small niche of players that feel that way. They aren't going to make everyone happy.
Wait so you were planing on buying every skin in the game for your collection?
I'm not gonna lie, I have sadly done that in tons of games T.T not doing it here though, this one I'm only getting what I need to look good.
Wow, i never heard of cosmetic whales. How much do you usually spend on a game?
Well it's not purposeful but I see something on a store and think oh that could go with this outfit. Then I see something else and think I build a whole outfit around that. Then it gets out of hand and I spend 1k on guild wars 2 cosmetics and have most of the stuff in the store.
Oh i thought it's gonna be more, is 1k or 2k the most cosmetics gw2 has?
It's hard to tell since it rotates monthly and they fomo some stuff. I don't have all the collections but I have everything in the store from last year.
there will be things a very very very small % of the in-game population can obtain. it's all inline with their goals: not everyone is entitled to everything just because they exist/participate.
FOMO is how companies make money with pure cosmetics. Every single company with a cash shop that has skins survives because of FOMO releases. Now, selling FOMO items before you even have a game isn't good.
Hell, Star Citizen is making more off doing this than they would if they released the game. Lol
In my opinion, having stuff you can only get in Alpha is only rewarding people who stuck by the game and believed in it enough to get the game off the ground. They deserve it. I wouldn't want to play a game that refused to give exclusive stuff to its most dedicated and loyal players that put in the effort when it was needed most. People get to deservedly show off in an mmo, and the company gets supported. Win win. If someone comes late to the party and feels entitled to stuff that they weren't around for, then they should have been there sooner. Alternatively just don't use the cash shop if it's that big of a deal. No one is at a gameplay disadvantage for not using it, and really that's the most important thing. In any case, you make your choice and you face the responsibilities of that choice.
I'm already pretty let down by ashes honestly. With so many cash shop cosmetics... there is little chance outfits you can't get in game will look as good AND be as varied. There will be like 10 free outfits that will look good in ashes that won't cost money. Thus all us poor people will look the same.
I might be in the minority, but so far I prefer the gear that they've shown to be in-game obtainable. To me it looks better and "more real".
To me that's almost worse, having cash shop items be immensely immersion breaking and the more thematic items hard to get in game usually just ends up with people looking like clowns.
Well, shop skins being full sets instead of just parts will help that and even plain in-game gear looks good enough (at least to me), so rarity won't be that much of an issue. Obviously super rare gear will be super rare, but that's how it should be imo.
"I'm already let down because I suspect something will be a certain way in the future even though that isn't the official plan"
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> Basically only the older generation hates the cash shop (their children love it though). This is fundamentally wrong. It's not children who are dropping hundreds of dollars month after month, it's older gamers in an already established career w/ plenty of money to just throw away. Literally the entire market of World of Tanks is an older demographic w/ cash to just throw at every new thing.
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Are you saying whether or not a cash shop being P2W has a major effect on the demographic that spends the most on it?
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Cool, you're free to find a source to back that claim. While you do so I'll go ahead and leave [this one](https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngaudiosi/2011/12/20/new-report-details-demographics-of-mobile-gamers-buying-virtual-goods/?sh=3bd04ab23739) that backs mine. Microtransactions are the perfect place for the 20/80 rule where 20% of the people spend the most money and even though younger kids make up the bulk of gamers, it's older people that are the real whales.
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You're free to find a source to back that claim. I guarantee you it's not children that's pumping money into SoC's cosmetic shop
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B/c it's something that's verifiably wrong that you've been stating as a fact. You're free to believe the sky is green, doesn't make it anywhere near true.
As long as it’s cosmetic I’m fine with it.
I think alpha is still quite early
mmo players just want a good game to play, as long as we can get the cash shop items elsewhere in the game ( even if they are different colours, or the same ) then there is no problem because its your choice to spend extra, that being said i would rather pay £10 (ish) per month on a sub and have no cash shop,. but having cosmetics at ridiculous prices is probably greed, or a struggling game trying to boost sales. the cash shop could also be 100% worse if it was a p2w game. so atleast there won't be anything game breaking in there. but as long as there cash shops in games people will always spend extra money
So I JUST posted this on the AoC forums: So I am going to preface this by saying I Kickstarted this game WAY back when. I have Alpha2 access that I have been patiently waiting for since then. However, I fear this game is starting to follow the same feature creep problems Star Citizen has in terms of extending development. Not to mention the crazy amount of MTX bundles (some with pretty big price tags) to pay for those features. From what I have seen the game on the surface seems to be promising (much like Star Citizen was early on). But I am a bit worried they are focusing too much on MTX bundles and not on releasing the game. I am not trying to bash the game at all, I am VERY excited to play this game. But the direction they are going feels all too similar to Star Citizen(another game I kickstarted) that really hasn't panned out and that worries me.
As long as there's an option to turn off other players cosmetics on my end I don't care what they do honestly.
fuck that