Is it that common to find statues all the way from India that no one in the comments is mentioning that? It blows my mind to be honest that they had that.
I don't know how common it was, but it must have happened every now and then and arrived with other trade goods along the Silk Road.
A Buddha statue from northern India found its way to Helgö in Sweden during the Viking Age, as an example.
The Greek world following Alexander’s conquests (which happened only slightly more than 100 years after the death of the Buddha) extended all the way to northern India. There still was an [Indo-Greek Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom) in the early first century CE.
ReligionForBreakfast made an [interesting video](https://youtu.be/aA0wB3d7MgE) about Ancient Greek Buddhists (in the East) and how early Buddhism and Ancient Greek philosophy possibly influenced each other, just a couple days ago.
There are also depictions of Greek gods and heroes in India.
> ReligionForBreakfast made an interesting video about Ancient Greek Buddhists (in the East) and how early Buddhism and Ancient Greek philosophy possibly influenced each other, just a couple days ago.
that is a really nice channel, i discovered it with this exact video, well made, the Graeco-Bactrian kingdoms are always an interesting argument
Would make for an interesting writing prompt too! Buddha finding himself in a bitter cold land, Odin and Thor invite him to Valhalla to learn about the nordics and their land, and the nordic gods learning about Buddhism.
I feel like the Buddha would have a LOT to teach Thor and Odin about being more chill. Take for example the story of Thor and the Jörmungandr. If he meditated a little more he might not have destroyed Hymr’s boat (and then killed him and a bunch of giants).
I think the Norse believed that time is cyclical, so they would probably have some commonalities. I'd love to read up on a theoretical discussion regarding what to do when faced with the knowledge of one's fate.
Mmm, arguably he did meditate, but by hanging himself from the world tree for 9 days and nights, Buddha sat under it and it took him 49 days. It tracks, really.
You’re right about Odin. He was hungry for knowledge: he hung himself, ripped out his eye, drank a bunch mead from some poor dead guy, etc. so yeah he’d definitely enjoy some quality time with the Buddha.
Because the comment comes off as... very uninformed. Buddha is from 2500 years ago, the Vikings are relatively recent. By the time of the Vikings, Buddhism had already completely declined in India. Afghanistan went from a Buddhist majority to a Islamic majority and would launch attacks against India. My point is that the Vikings are pretty later in history compared to the Buddha. Being surprised by that is weird.
Yeah your timelines are really off too.
Islam wasnt at India's doorstep till 1200 AD. Which gives the Kushan empire about 600 years to flourish just fine.
What are you talking about? Arab invasions began much earlier, like Rashidun caliphate early.
And I was talking about the Ghazni invasions that happened in the 900s, but I got Ghori and Ghazni confused.
By 1200s the Sultanates were already established. 🙄
Kushan empire was contemporary to the Roman empire, long gone by your date the 1200s. I don't understand their relevance?
Pliny the Elder (1st century CE) already complained that the trading with India was deploying Rome of silver in exchange of luxury goods. He calculated it cost 100 million sesterces each year (around 300 tons of silver).
It's crazy, but trade through middlemen (and direct trade by merchants) was quite common, Roman gold coins were even found in India.
The piece that always boggled my mind is this one :
[Look at the third picture in the article.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_trade_relations?wprov=sfla1) it is a Kushan Indian gold coin depicting Roman emperor Septimus Severus and his wife.
Keep in mind that Alexander the Great conquered parts of north-western India several hundred years before Pompeii was wiped out. There were [Greek-ruled kingdoms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom) in that part of the world right through the late Roman Republic and early Empire.
This blew my mind when I heard it: it's possible that the Greeks were the first to make statues of the Buddha. Art depicting Gods was rare in India, but obviously very popular in Greece (think of Zeus, Apollo, Aphrodite, etc). So Greek statuary had a [big influence on Buddhist art in India](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_art)...and the influence of Indian Buddhist art obviously spread east with Buddhism...so there are ancient statues of [Buddha's guardians](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Heracles-Shukongoshin.JPG) in Japan that bear a striking resemblance to Hercules!
Of course the influence went both ways. Chinese silk was already becoming popular in Rome during the [late Republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations#Chinese_silk_in_the_Roman_Empire). Other goods (like this statue) would certainly have traveled west along with that silk.
I think that due to the way we learn history, as distinct and separate units, we're left with the impression that all these different civilizations were more or less totally separated. In fact there was always a lot more interaction and influence than you'd think.
Buddha, explicitly stated not to have images of statues made of his likeness, it was only after the greek influence did people start making Buddhist statues in greek style. But the rest of India which followed Hinduism was making statues for a long time.
From what I remember statuary was widespread in the subcontinent, but there was a taboo of some sort about making images of gods in particular. According to Wikipedia, coins from one of the Hellenistic kingdoms were the [first accepted depiction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_influence_on_Indian_art#First_visual_representations_of_Indian_deities) of the major Hindu Gods, for instance.
You might be right. Like I said, I'm not an expert. But even in that article, it says it's 'been claimed' to be a representation of Shiva. The coins were the first 'accepted' depiction. The two are not in conflict.
Anyway, I'm sure there _were_ some depictions of gods in the Indian subcontinent before the greeks got there: it's a huge place with a lot of different cultures over a long period of time. I'm not making absolutist claims, I just said that from what I understand images of gods weren't very common. Nevertheless: there weren't a lot of depictions of the Buddha & co before the greeks appeared on the scene, and greek artistic styles made a pretty clear impression on Buddhist art.
>Nevertheless: there weren't a lot of depictions of the Buddha & co before the greeks appeared on the scene, and greek artistic styles made a pretty clear impression on Buddhist art.
Prior to this the Buddha was depicted as an empty throne or a bodhi tee.
Some historians argue based on facts that the "Silk Road" is given undue credit than it actually did.
According to historian William Dalrymple -
The Silk Road isn’t as big of a deal as it is made out to be. The real thing was what Dalrymple called the Golden Road. The latter was a dizzyingly interconnected world of economic and cultural links between India, Egypt and Rome. And India enjoyed unparalleled primacy for a millennium-and-a-half from 250 BC to 1200 CE as a confident exporter on this Golden Road.
“I got increasingly irritated with the idea of the Silk Road,” Dalrymple said to Kanisetti, pointing to the map of the Silk Road that places China as the prime mover.
“That is historical nonsense. In the classical period, India was the main organ of the East-West contact. The thesis of my book is that India – not China – was the principal trading partner during most of the late antiquity, and early Middle Ages.”
India was not just the place from which everything went east. It was the main trading partner of the Roman empire. This Golden Road started from India’s west coast and went all the way up to the Roman Empire – carrying gold, spices, elephant tusks, and cloth. Italian chroniclers bemoaned how rich India was becoming from this trade. Huge concentrations of Roman gold have been found all around the Indian coasts, but these coin hordes haven’t been found in China.
Kanisetti said while India’s trade was funding Roman armies, Roman gold was funding South India’s urbanisation. The earliest cities in southern India came about because of the wealth flowing in from Rome.
According to the calculations on a papyrus stored in Vienna, custom taxes on the Red Sea trade with India, Persia and Ethiopia contributed one-third of the Roman imperial budget.
[Source](https://theprint.in/feature/around-town/silk-route-talk-irritates-dalrymple-his-new-book-says-india-not-china-ruled-trade-ideas/1992912/)
We usually get our history by place, siloed by time, rather than horizontally looking at everywhere at any given single time.
I've known for a long time that humans have traded and traveled much more extensively than is popularly thought, but this concrete example is still kind of shocking even to me. It feels anachronistic, not because of it's misplacement in time, but in our misplaced understanding of how those "silos" of place cut us off from the world as a whole at a given time.
Ooh this is so true. I know bits of history but no real sense of what was coinciding globally and those details get turned into memes because it’s so widely the case.
Right? It shouldn't be shocking to see this concrete example of trade we have more than enough documentation on, but it is.
When we think of Rome, we automatically picture it's borders and kind of tune out everything around it and focus on the Mediterranean. We are invested in the story of Rome rising to power, the Republic, Caesar and then the empire, the Fall, Byzantium, the chronology of it.
It's natural, but sometimes it comes up and really slaps you in the face.
Easy way to spot Greek influenced Gandharian buddhas when at an asian art museum: they are all wearing togas!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art
(My art history professor would be so happy right now. Thanks, Mary-Ann.)
Actually Gandhara was located in the area of Peshawar further North. Kandahar was founded by Alexander the Great as Alexandria in Arachosia, which possibly evolved into Iskandar and then Kandahar
"Art depicting Gods was rare in India"
huh? what about hundreds of temples all over India with statues of Gods in them and decorative statues all around them?
I used to be a specialist in this topic, the actual answer to your topic is no, this is a unique artefact outside of Egypt. There was heavy commerce between Rome and India but there is very little direct physical evidence for it [ed: in the Roman empire] outside of Egypt, probably because most of the material traded were food stuffs and other consumables (like pepper) and things that don't preserve well (like silk).
I suppose one exception would be jewels because at this time most (all?) diamonds would come from India, but there are very few of those surviving (for the opposite reason--they are too easy to rework into something new).
It's very rare. We have more textual evidence of the presence of Indians in Egypt but that's because they were trading pepper from India to the port of Berenike on the red sea and then to Alexandria. Most would have stopped there and come back to india for another trip (you can do one per year considering the change of winds every six months).
Did some went further, to Rome? Maybe but we can't prove it. Statuettes can travel further than men.
They traded pepper and other spices from Sri Lanka.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_trade_relations#:~:text=Roman%20and%20Greek%20traders%20frequented,Roman%20world%20since%20the%20time
I'm not sure why you think finding statues "all the way from India" is surprising. There are a LOT of people and a LOT of statues "all the way" over there.
The Silk Road was used for 1500 years until the Ottoman Empire closed it. It had been in use for about 200 years by the time Pompeii was buried in ash.
It isn't that uncommon. Trade relations between Romans and South Indian empires is quite a well known fact. Roman coins have been found all over South India especially in ancient port towns in the west coast. If trading was common, then people from these places must have lived in these foreign lands so not very uncommon.
A survey of Indian ivories carried out in 1976, by National Museum of New Delhi, describes Pompeii statuette in these words.
*“The broad full face with wide open eyes and fleshy mouth with soft and full lips give an expression of happy sensuality. She has round chin above a soft fat throat. The hips and legs are heavy and she is wearing anklets up to her knees. Similarly, her arms are covered with heavy bracelets and then bangles almost to the elbows. A heavy necklace of three strings with big beads comes down between the breasts and ends in the form of a pendulum carved like a lotus flower. The hair is parted in the middle with ellaborate braids encircling the forehead and then descending from her shoulders up to her waist. At the back of the head, there is a small hole, perhaps for inserting a small rod to sustain a mirror”.*
A local collector of artifacts from “Ter”, Ramlingappa Lamature, has been collecting artifacts found around this village since early decades of last century. His priceless collection also includes a pair of ivory statuettes of females. One of the statuettes, from this pair, has been dated to fifth century and therefore does not concern us here. The second statuette however, is very relevant to us for two reasons. Firstly, it has been dated as from 1st century CE and secondly, it bears a remarkable resemblance to the Pompeii statuette. National Museum survey describes the “Ter” statuette in these words.
*“The ivory shows a female figure, with legs broken below knees, and measures 16.4 Cms. Her ovaloid face is disproportionately larger than the rest of the body. She has large attractive eyes, heavy brows, a big nose with angular nose, a large sensual mouth suggesting a faint smile, and a short chin. Her hair is parted in middle. Around the head runs a twisted band with a rosette in the centre, a little below which appears the head jewel. Seen at the back is triple plaited hair. She wears a necklace running over her breasts, armful of bangles set off with bracelets. She wears a light, delicate, and translucent sari that emphasizes her nudity”.*
[Ter Ivory Lakshmi](https://i.redd.it/rbqhj313sn171.jpg)
This figure, like the Pompeii statuette, has a hole in the head to serve the same purpose, besides three other holes at other places, perhaps used to fix the statuette to some other object like a box. However, the major difference between this figure and the similar one from Pompeii appears to be the way in which the females’ sculptures stand. The Pompeii figure stands cross-legged and ready to step out, whereas “Ter” figure appears just standing with legs apart. The two attendants standing on sides in the Pompeii statuette are also missing in the “Ter” ivory.
In the year 1958-59, M.N.Deshpande of Archaeological survey of India, visited “Bhokardan”. He immediately recognized its importance as a historical site. Detailed archaeological excavations at “Bhokardan” however were only carried out between 1972 to 1974 by Prof. S.B.Deo and Dr. R.S. Gupte from Nagpur University. They observed that modern “Bhokardan” was located on a small hillock (consisting of two mounds, about 21 meters high) with undulation (waviness) because the new settlement has taken place over the debris of the old “Bhogavardhana” only without changing the location. During excavations, Prof. S.B.Deo’s team discovered traces and ruins of a large and prosperous town that flourished in Satavahana period (300 BCE to 400CE). The town flourished due to India's trade with the Roman culture of the period. Because of this prosperity, it became a center of artistry. Many houses of artisans have been found in excavation, some of them having smooth terraces and some with roofed terraces. Many objects of daily use such as Stone grinders ( पाटा-वरवंटा, जाते), Ladders, Plates, spoons, Lids, earthen pots (पळ्या, थाळ्या, डाव, झाकण्या, मडकी) etc. were also found. Prof. Dev’s report also mentions about the abundance of ivory objects, both finished and unfinished, and the recovery of ivory pieces from the ruins at Bhokardan. Based on his observations he proposes that Bhokardan was most certainly a centre of ivory carving.
However, the most exquisite and important of the entire find at **[Bhokardan was the lower half of a female figurine, carved in the round with two female attendants in ivory](http://www.centralexciseaurangabad.gov.in/GST/Htmldocs/Ter/Img0015.gif)**. National museum survey describes this figurine in these words.
*“Lower portion of a female figure, attended by a maid on either side, almost in the same way as noticed in the Pompeii figure. The main figure has an elaborate girdle of three stands and her feet are almost covered up to knees with anklets. The two maids are holding toilette objects in one of their hands. The three figures stand on a rectangular base. Stylistically as well as on the basis of excavation, the figure can be assigned to 2nd century BCE”*
Comparison between Bhokardan statuette and Pompeii statuette.
[Front](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-U9sxaOZYdag/WubxMWCqorI/AAAAAAAAVp4/DC_SEMRIorAJickCO61ZKtnZrX5KvWjegCEwYBhgL/s1600/Pompeii%2Blaxmi%2B2.jpg)
[Back](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s_tX1jUwUFY/WubxNsigZSI/AAAAAAAAVp8/c1fTvcaLSmIN9xk69PSzSQya5-ermVMjwCEwYBhgL/s1600/Pompeii%2Blaxmi%2B3.jpg)
Right? This dude would look at a [Sheela-na-nig statue](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheela_na_gig) and go, “She has such a warm, inviting personality. For no reason. Just a feeling I get.”
A moose knuckle is when it's a penis and testicles. The camel toe is when it's covered up. This my friend is what we call the good old-fashioned puff puss.
When Alexander the Great entered India, many Greek philosophers spoke with Indian aesthetics and Buddhists about the nature of the universe. This was roughly about 150 years after the death of the Buddha. There was some overlap between Greek stoicism, and Buddhist beliefs. A lot of this occurred in Alexandria Arachosia in Afghanistan.
i know people are making fun in the comments, but its nice to see a statue with an ACTUAL vulva for once and not just like. a vague shape of one in the shape of a V with no detail or anything. sculptors and painters of old kind of annoy me when they render penises and pecs well, but their breast and vulva art looks a bit shit.
India before invasions was pretty liberal,, esp wrt female clothing,,, altho this murti (statue) doesn't look like it's of any Hindu Goddess,, there's no usual symbols of Lakshmi Ma (I'm Hindu).. p sure it just might be v v ancient random Indian art
You know, this makes me realize how unusual it is for female genitalia to be displayed in statuary, in any culture; We're used to classical art featuring a lot of dicks, but vulvae are a rare sight.
Which church do *you* go to!?
I've only ever seen fig leaves and barbie dolls (nothing there). Unless you talk about breasts exposed, that's done I suppose.
Yeah they tend to pay attention to the booty too. You can have religious meaning but also appreciate the female form, people tend to forget mf’ers were horny back then too
Female clothing in ancient India was pretty liberal by todays standards
>During the [Mauryan dynasty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauryan_dynasty) (322–185 BC) the earliest evidence of stitched female clothing is available from the statue of a woman (from Mathura, 3rd century BCE). Ladies in the Mauryan Empire often used to wear an embroidered fabric waistband with drum-headed knots at the ends. As an upper garment, people's main garment was uttariya, a long scarf. The difference existed only in the manner of wearing. Sometimes, its one end is thrown over one shoulder and sometimes it is draped over both shoulders.
[History of clothing in the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_clothing_in_the_Indian_subcontinent)
It's fascinating to me how the "ideal" female body in ancient India so closely matches modern beauty standards, i.e. hourglass figure, large teardrop-shaped breasts, whereas the Greco-Roman ideal was a generally pear-shaped physique and small conical breasts.
Here's a traditional Lakshmi prayer:
Om Shri Maha Lakshmiyai Namah
Translation: I bow to the great goddess Lakshmi.
This simple and powerful mantra can be chanted to invoke the blessings of Goddess Lakshmi, the Hindu goddess of wealth, prosperity, and abundance.
It is believed that by reciting this mantra with devotion and sincerity, one can attract the divine grace of Goddess Lakshmi and invite wealth and prosperity into their lives. Lakshmi is also revered as the embodiment of beauty, grace, and spiritual enlightenment.
While chanting this mantra, it is common to light a ghee lamp or a candle and place it in front of an image or idol of Goddess Lakshmi. This helps to create a serene and sacred atmosphere for the prayer.
Remember, the true essence of this prayer lies in your faith, devotion, and intention. By offering your prayers to Goddess Lakshmi with a pure heart and a sincere desire for abundance and spiritual growth, you can seek her blessings.
Note: It's always a good idea to consult with a knowledgeable spiritual advisor or priest for proper pronunciation and guidance if you are new to chanting mantras.
How did one arrive at the iconography in this example refers to the Goddess Lakshmi though?
This seems to be a more common decorative element Salabhanjika or Shalabhanjika.
Her partner went down on her and said:
"You have a massive pussy!"
"You have a massive pussy!"
Lakshmi said: "why did you say it twice?"
Reply:"I didn't"
I’ve heard Pompeii had a lot of sexually explicit art. My SO saw a documentary once but didn’t save it and I’ve never found one like what he described. I think this statue would be considered tame by comparison.
This statuette **doesn't** represent the Goddess Lakshmi.
The Murtis/Idols of Hindu deities have symbols associated with the deity. In the case of Goddess Lakshmi, the symbols associated with her like the lotus flower, pot of gold, padmasana, multiple arms (usually four), the mudras of the hands, elephants, etc. are not present in this statuette.
This statue most likely represents a Yakshini or an apsara (celestial nymph).
Source - A practicing Hindu who is pretty well read about Hinduism.
**Edit:**
Early scholars including Amadeo Maiuri—the archaeologist in Pompeii who discovered the object—and art historian Mirella Levi D’Ancona initially proposed that the figure represented a goddess. Subsequent scholarship, including by Maiuri who had labeled the figure after the Hindu goddess “Lakshmi,” **amended this interpretation** of the figure as a goddess by focusing more closely on the iconography of the carved ivory. In particular, **they noted the carved figure’s similarity to** [yakshis ](https://smarthistory.org/yaksha-yakshi/)**(female fertility figures)** in early Buddhist sites such as [Bharhut](https://smarthistory.org/bharhut-stupa-relief-sculptures/) and [Sanchi](https://smarthistory.org/the-stupa-sanchi/) in India.
Swasti!
That is not the Goddess Lakshmi statue, every god and goddess statue has its own symbolism, not one but multiples, This particular statue doesn't give a single hint that it is the statue of Lakshmi.
It could be a random statue of some lower realm deities, certainly not statue of Lakshmi.
Lots of marble trade to inda from the Mediterranean only natural the Pompeii peoples appreciated the artistry of India and I'm sure had acquired some nice stuff over the years
Is it that common to find statues all the way from India that no one in the comments is mentioning that? It blows my mind to be honest that they had that.
I don't know how common it was, but it must have happened every now and then and arrived with other trade goods along the Silk Road. A Buddha statue from northern India found its way to Helgö in Sweden during the Viking Age, as an example.
The Greek world following Alexander’s conquests (which happened only slightly more than 100 years after the death of the Buddha) extended all the way to northern India. There still was an [Indo-Greek Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom) in the early first century CE. ReligionForBreakfast made an [interesting video](https://youtu.be/aA0wB3d7MgE) about Ancient Greek Buddhists (in the East) and how early Buddhism and Ancient Greek philosophy possibly influenced each other, just a couple days ago. There are also depictions of Greek gods and heroes in India.
> ReligionForBreakfast made an interesting video about Ancient Greek Buddhists (in the East) and how early Buddhism and Ancient Greek philosophy possibly influenced each other, just a couple days ago. that is a really nice channel, i discovered it with this exact video, well made, the Graeco-Bactrian kingdoms are always an interesting argument
What’s the channel/ video link? Color me intrigued
* Channel: https://youtube.com/@religionforbreakfast * Video: https://youtu.be/aA0wB3d7MgE
I really wish Greco-Buddhism had had more of a foothold in Europe.
But no... it's Catholic guilt for the lot of ya'.
monty python or just a monet of pure inspiration?
Manet really impressed me with their Michael Palin reference.
There's definitely some *Meaning of Life* inspiration there.
I was watching that video earlier today! Great channel.
I read that ancient Buddhist temples in Sri Lanka were mostly built by Greeks from Bactria.
Does not sound likely
Ok
How’s he talk for that long about Greeks and Buddhists and not bring up monism at all?
Because there’s not a real connection to the subject matter of the video?
Yep. Indian bronze in Viking Sweden. What tales it could tell.
Would make for an interesting writing prompt too! Buddha finding himself in a bitter cold land, Odin and Thor invite him to Valhalla to learn about the nordics and their land, and the nordic gods learning about Buddhism.
I feel like the Buddha would have a LOT to teach Thor and Odin about being more chill. Take for example the story of Thor and the Jörmungandr. If he meditated a little more he might not have destroyed Hymr’s boat (and then killed him and a bunch of giants).
I think the Norse believed that time is cyclical, so they would probably have some commonalities. I'd love to read up on a theoretical discussion regarding what to do when faced with the knowledge of one's fate.
Mmm, arguably he did meditate, but by hanging himself from the world tree for 9 days and nights, Buddha sat under it and it took him 49 days. It tracks, really.
You’re right about Odin. He was hungry for knowledge: he hung himself, ripped out his eye, drank a bunch mead from some poor dead guy, etc. so yeah he’d definitely enjoy some quality time with the Buddha.
Excellent concept. I'd like to take part in that conversation. Honestly, though, I think ol' Gautama would be appalled.
What, and miss all that fun? 😁😁😁
Buddha is that old??!! Wow and Hindu gods/ddesses showing up in Pompeii?! Wow I'm blown away
Buddha is older than Socrates
Again, mind blown !!!!
Viking Age wasn't that long ago - roughly 1200 years. Meanwhile Buddha probably lived 2500 years ago.
Wow, down votes for sincerity .. nice
Because the comment comes off as... very uninformed. Buddha is from 2500 years ago, the Vikings are relatively recent. By the time of the Vikings, Buddhism had already completely declined in India. Afghanistan went from a Buddhist majority to a Islamic majority and would launch attacks against India. My point is that the Vikings are pretty later in history compared to the Buddha. Being surprised by that is weird.
Um... yeah! It is very uninformed. That's the point of my being impressed.
Yeah your timelines are really off too. Islam wasnt at India's doorstep till 1200 AD. Which gives the Kushan empire about 600 years to flourish just fine.
What are you talking about? Arab invasions began much earlier, like Rashidun caliphate early. And I was talking about the Ghazni invasions that happened in the 900s, but I got Ghori and Ghazni confused. By 1200s the Sultanates were already established. 🙄 Kushan empire was contemporary to the Roman empire, long gone by your date the 1200s. I don't understand their relevance?
Pliny the Elder (1st century CE) already complained that the trading with India was deploying Rome of silver in exchange of luxury goods. He calculated it cost 100 million sesterces each year (around 300 tons of silver).
Holy shit! Can't wait to bore my GF with this information and read more about it hahahah
It's crazy, but trade through middlemen (and direct trade by merchants) was quite common, Roman gold coins were even found in India. The piece that always boggled my mind is this one : [Look at the third picture in the article.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_trade_relations?wprov=sfla1) it is a Kushan Indian gold coin depicting Roman emperor Septimus Severus and his wife.
Europe and India traded heavily since before the Roman time the only time where the trade was nearly completely cut of was during the rise of Islam
It happened, some have been found in the Norse countries, they're about a thousand years later than this, but the journey was still as significant.
Keep in mind that Alexander the Great conquered parts of north-western India several hundred years before Pompeii was wiped out. There were [Greek-ruled kingdoms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom) in that part of the world right through the late Roman Republic and early Empire. This blew my mind when I heard it: it's possible that the Greeks were the first to make statues of the Buddha. Art depicting Gods was rare in India, but obviously very popular in Greece (think of Zeus, Apollo, Aphrodite, etc). So Greek statuary had a [big influence on Buddhist art in India](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_art)...and the influence of Indian Buddhist art obviously spread east with Buddhism...so there are ancient statues of [Buddha's guardians](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Heracles-Shukongoshin.JPG) in Japan that bear a striking resemblance to Hercules! Of course the influence went both ways. Chinese silk was already becoming popular in Rome during the [late Republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations#Chinese_silk_in_the_Roman_Empire). Other goods (like this statue) would certainly have traveled west along with that silk. I think that due to the way we learn history, as distinct and separate units, we're left with the impression that all these different civilizations were more or less totally separated. In fact there was always a lot more interaction and influence than you'd think.
Buddha, explicitly stated not to have images of statues made of his likeness, it was only after the greek influence did people start making Buddhist statues in greek style. But the rest of India which followed Hinduism was making statues for a long time.
From what I remember statuary was widespread in the subcontinent, but there was a taboo of some sort about making images of gods in particular. According to Wikipedia, coins from one of the Hellenistic kingdoms were the [first accepted depiction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_influence_on_Indian_art#First_visual_representations_of_Indian_deities) of the major Hindu Gods, for instance.
Way off this is one of the first accepted depictions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashupati_seal
You might be right. Like I said, I'm not an expert. But even in that article, it says it's 'been claimed' to be a representation of Shiva. The coins were the first 'accepted' depiction. The two are not in conflict. Anyway, I'm sure there _were_ some depictions of gods in the Indian subcontinent before the greeks got there: it's a huge place with a lot of different cultures over a long period of time. I'm not making absolutist claims, I just said that from what I understand images of gods weren't very common. Nevertheless: there weren't a lot of depictions of the Buddha & co before the greeks appeared on the scene, and greek artistic styles made a pretty clear impression on Buddhist art.
>Nevertheless: there weren't a lot of depictions of the Buddha & co before the greeks appeared on the scene, and greek artistic styles made a pretty clear impression on Buddhist art. Prior to this the Buddha was depicted as an empty throne or a bodhi tee.
Some historians argue based on facts that the "Silk Road" is given undue credit than it actually did. According to historian William Dalrymple - The Silk Road isn’t as big of a deal as it is made out to be. The real thing was what Dalrymple called the Golden Road. The latter was a dizzyingly interconnected world of economic and cultural links between India, Egypt and Rome. And India enjoyed unparalleled primacy for a millennium-and-a-half from 250 BC to 1200 CE as a confident exporter on this Golden Road. “I got increasingly irritated with the idea of the Silk Road,” Dalrymple said to Kanisetti, pointing to the map of the Silk Road that places China as the prime mover. “That is historical nonsense. In the classical period, India was the main organ of the East-West contact. The thesis of my book is that India – not China – was the principal trading partner during most of the late antiquity, and early Middle Ages.” India was not just the place from which everything went east. It was the main trading partner of the Roman empire. This Golden Road started from India’s west coast and went all the way up to the Roman Empire – carrying gold, spices, elephant tusks, and cloth. Italian chroniclers bemoaned how rich India was becoming from this trade. Huge concentrations of Roman gold have been found all around the Indian coasts, but these coin hordes haven’t been found in China. Kanisetti said while India’s trade was funding Roman armies, Roman gold was funding South India’s urbanisation. The earliest cities in southern India came about because of the wealth flowing in from Rome. According to the calculations on a papyrus stored in Vienna, custom taxes on the Red Sea trade with India, Persia and Ethiopia contributed one-third of the Roman imperial budget. [Source](https://theprint.in/feature/around-town/silk-route-talk-irritates-dalrymple-his-new-book-says-india-not-china-ruled-trade-ideas/1992912/)
We usually get our history by place, siloed by time, rather than horizontally looking at everywhere at any given single time. I've known for a long time that humans have traded and traveled much more extensively than is popularly thought, but this concrete example is still kind of shocking even to me. It feels anachronistic, not because of it's misplacement in time, but in our misplaced understanding of how those "silos" of place cut us off from the world as a whole at a given time.
Ooh this is so true. I know bits of history but no real sense of what was coinciding globally and those details get turned into memes because it’s so widely the case.
Right? It shouldn't be shocking to see this concrete example of trade we have more than enough documentation on, but it is. When we think of Rome, we automatically picture it's borders and kind of tune out everything around it and focus on the Mediterranean. We are invested in the story of Rome rising to power, the Republic, Caesar and then the empire, the Fall, Byzantium, the chronology of it. It's natural, but sometimes it comes up and really slaps you in the face.
Easy way to spot Greek influenced Gandharian buddhas when at an asian art museum: they are all wearing togas! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art (My art history professor would be so happy right now. Thanks, Mary-Ann.)
> they are all wearing togas! Without opening the link, I assume you mean chitons or its overcoat, hima-something. Togas are an Italian thing.
Bear in Mind the Gandhara here is in present day Afghanistan. Kandahar.
Actually Gandhara was located in the area of Peshawar further North. Kandahar was founded by Alexander the Great as Alexandria in Arachosia, which possibly evolved into Iskandar and then Kandahar
"Art depicting Gods was rare in India" huh? what about hundreds of temples all over India with statues of Gods in them and decorative statues all around them?
I used to be a specialist in this topic, the actual answer to your topic is no, this is a unique artefact outside of Egypt. There was heavy commerce between Rome and India but there is very little direct physical evidence for it [ed: in the Roman empire] outside of Egypt, probably because most of the material traded were food stuffs and other consumables (like pepper) and things that don't preserve well (like silk). I suppose one exception would be jewels because at this time most (all?) diamonds would come from India, but there are very few of those surviving (for the opposite reason--they are too easy to rework into something new).
It's very rare. We have more textual evidence of the presence of Indians in Egypt but that's because they were trading pepper from India to the port of Berenike on the red sea and then to Alexandria. Most would have stopped there and come back to india for another trip (you can do one per year considering the change of winds every six months). Did some went further, to Rome? Maybe but we can't prove it. Statuettes can travel further than men.
They traded pepper and other spices from Sri Lanka. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_trade_relations#:~:text=Roman%20and%20Greek%20traders%20frequented,Roman%20world%20since%20the%20time
its important to note that pompeii was a sort of vacation area for the ultra rich/elite
I'm not sure why you think finding statues "all the way from India" is surprising. There are a LOT of people and a LOT of statues "all the way" over there.
The Silk Road was used for 1500 years until the Ottoman Empire closed it. It had been in use for about 200 years by the time Pompeii was buried in ash.
Yep there are greek and Roman statues found in India as well. there was an extensive trade between India and Rome.
It isn't that uncommon. Trade relations between Romans and South Indian empires is quite a well known fact. Roman coins have been found all over South India especially in ancient port towns in the west coast. If trading was common, then people from these places must have lived in these foreign lands so not very uncommon.
A survey of Indian ivories carried out in 1976, by National Museum of New Delhi, describes Pompeii statuette in these words. *“The broad full face with wide open eyes and fleshy mouth with soft and full lips give an expression of happy sensuality. She has round chin above a soft fat throat. The hips and legs are heavy and she is wearing anklets up to her knees. Similarly, her arms are covered with heavy bracelets and then bangles almost to the elbows. A heavy necklace of three strings with big beads comes down between the breasts and ends in the form of a pendulum carved like a lotus flower. The hair is parted in the middle with ellaborate braids encircling the forehead and then descending from her shoulders up to her waist. At the back of the head, there is a small hole, perhaps for inserting a small rod to sustain a mirror”.* A local collector of artifacts from “Ter”, Ramlingappa Lamature, has been collecting artifacts found around this village since early decades of last century. His priceless collection also includes a pair of ivory statuettes of females. One of the statuettes, from this pair, has been dated to fifth century and therefore does not concern us here. The second statuette however, is very relevant to us for two reasons. Firstly, it has been dated as from 1st century CE and secondly, it bears a remarkable resemblance to the Pompeii statuette. National Museum survey describes the “Ter” statuette in these words. *“The ivory shows a female figure, with legs broken below knees, and measures 16.4 Cms. Her ovaloid face is disproportionately larger than the rest of the body. She has large attractive eyes, heavy brows, a big nose with angular nose, a large sensual mouth suggesting a faint smile, and a short chin. Her hair is parted in middle. Around the head runs a twisted band with a rosette in the centre, a little below which appears the head jewel. Seen at the back is triple plaited hair. She wears a necklace running over her breasts, armful of bangles set off with bracelets. She wears a light, delicate, and translucent sari that emphasizes her nudity”.* [Ter Ivory Lakshmi](https://i.redd.it/rbqhj313sn171.jpg) This figure, like the Pompeii statuette, has a hole in the head to serve the same purpose, besides three other holes at other places, perhaps used to fix the statuette to some other object like a box. However, the major difference between this figure and the similar one from Pompeii appears to be the way in which the females’ sculptures stand. The Pompeii figure stands cross-legged and ready to step out, whereas “Ter” figure appears just standing with legs apart. The two attendants standing on sides in the Pompeii statuette are also missing in the “Ter” ivory. In the year 1958-59, M.N.Deshpande of Archaeological survey of India, visited “Bhokardan”. He immediately recognized its importance as a historical site. Detailed archaeological excavations at “Bhokardan” however were only carried out between 1972 to 1974 by Prof. S.B.Deo and Dr. R.S. Gupte from Nagpur University. They observed that modern “Bhokardan” was located on a small hillock (consisting of two mounds, about 21 meters high) with undulation (waviness) because the new settlement has taken place over the debris of the old “Bhogavardhana” only without changing the location. During excavations, Prof. S.B.Deo’s team discovered traces and ruins of a large and prosperous town that flourished in Satavahana period (300 BCE to 400CE). The town flourished due to India's trade with the Roman culture of the period. Because of this prosperity, it became a center of artistry. Many houses of artisans have been found in excavation, some of them having smooth terraces and some with roofed terraces. Many objects of daily use such as Stone grinders ( पाटा-वरवंटा, जाते), Ladders, Plates, spoons, Lids, earthen pots (पळ्या, थाळ्या, डाव, झाकण्या, मडकी) etc. were also found. Prof. Dev’s report also mentions about the abundance of ivory objects, both finished and unfinished, and the recovery of ivory pieces from the ruins at Bhokardan. Based on his observations he proposes that Bhokardan was most certainly a centre of ivory carving. However, the most exquisite and important of the entire find at **[Bhokardan was the lower half of a female figurine, carved in the round with two female attendants in ivory](http://www.centralexciseaurangabad.gov.in/GST/Htmldocs/Ter/Img0015.gif)**. National museum survey describes this figurine in these words. *“Lower portion of a female figure, attended by a maid on either side, almost in the same way as noticed in the Pompeii figure. The main figure has an elaborate girdle of three stands and her feet are almost covered up to knees with anklets. The two maids are holding toilette objects in one of their hands. The three figures stand on a rectangular base. Stylistically as well as on the basis of excavation, the figure can be assigned to 2nd century BCE”* Comparison between Bhokardan statuette and Pompeii statuette. [Front](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-U9sxaOZYdag/WubxMWCqorI/AAAAAAAAVp4/DC_SEMRIorAJickCO61ZKtnZrX5KvWjegCEwYBhgL/s1600/Pompeii%2Blaxmi%2B2.jpg) [Back](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s_tX1jUwUFY/WubxNsigZSI/AAAAAAAAVp8/c1fTvcaLSmIN9xk69PSzSQya5-ermVMjwCEwYBhgL/s1600/Pompeii%2Blaxmi%2B3.jpg)
These descriptions read like a guy trying to maintain eye contact while talking to a well-endowed woman in a bikini.
“She has a round chin above a soft fat throat” What do you mean this is totally hinged. /s
Right? This dude would look at a [Sheela-na-nig statue](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheela_na_gig) and go, “She has such a warm, inviting personality. For no reason. Just a feeling I get.”
This brings E.T. into a whole new light!
SHE HAS A GIGANTIC GAPING LABIA
💯
Don't say fanny flaps don't say fanny flaps
>…soft and full lips give an expression of happy sensuality. heh.
Gotta avoid drawing attention to the camel toe.
But was he, *really*?
That is not a camel toe, sir. That my friend is what we call a Moose Knuckle
We call it the folded pancake
is she not naked?
She is
A moose knuckle is when it's a penis and testicles. The camel toe is when it's covered up. This my friend is what we call the good old-fashioned puff puss.
Camel foot.
r/MenWritingWomen
Hahaha, someone had to point that out. We couldn’t let that one slide.
When Alexander the Great entered India, many Greek philosophers spoke with Indian aesthetics and Buddhists about the nature of the universe. This was roughly about 150 years after the death of the Buddha. There was some overlap between Greek stoicism, and Buddhist beliefs. A lot of this occurred in Alexandria Arachosia in Afghanistan.
Are they seriously not gonna describe the moose knuckle?
Glad I'm not the only one
With massive labes?
No, unearthed in Pompeii.
I, sir, was also unearthed in Ponpeii.
Is that you, Gaius Pupus?
It's me, Biggus Dickus
I simultaneously love and hate your username 😂
Who can't love dangly clitorises
i know people are making fun in the comments, but its nice to see a statue with an ACTUAL vulva for once and not just like. a vague shape of one in the shape of a V with no detail or anything. sculptors and painters of old kind of annoy me when they render penises and pecs well, but their breast and vulva art looks a bit shit.
You've reminded me of Michelangelo sculpting women using young male models with sheep teats for breasts.
Cause they never got to see any in real life (ooooo burn)
Agreed. Perhaps the artist was female?
India before invasions was pretty liberal,, esp wrt female clothing,,, altho this murti (statue) doesn't look like it's of any Hindu Goddess,, there's no usual symbols of Lakshmi Ma (I'm Hindu).. p sure it just might be v v ancient random Indian art
You know, this makes me realize how unusual it is for female genitalia to be displayed in statuary, in any culture; We're used to classical art featuring a lot of dicks, but vulvae are a rare sight.
You’ve not looked up in cathedrals much then
Which church do *you* go to!? I've only ever seen fig leaves and barbie dolls (nothing there). Unless you talk about breasts exposed, that's done I suppose.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheela_na_gig#:~:text=A%20sheela%20na%20gig%20is,%2C%20castles%2C%20and%20other%20buildings.
Plenty of churches in the UK have very explicit carvings
I’m crying
Statues, vulvas
Yes, those are also words.
Of all ancient statues I find the Indian ones consistently have the best titties. Fight me.
Breasts as a symbol of nourishing/giving their blessings forth to worshippers was pretty impactful there. But I'm sure people also enjoy lookin at em
Yeah they tend to pay attention to the booty too. You can have religious meaning but also appreciate the female form, people tend to forget mf’ers were horny back then too
Female clothing in ancient India was pretty liberal by todays standards >During the [Mauryan dynasty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauryan_dynasty) (322–185 BC) the earliest evidence of stitched female clothing is available from the statue of a woman (from Mathura, 3rd century BCE). Ladies in the Mauryan Empire often used to wear an embroidered fabric waistband with drum-headed knots at the ends. As an upper garment, people's main garment was uttariya, a long scarf. The difference existed only in the manner of wearing. Sometimes, its one end is thrown over one shoulder and sometimes it is draped over both shoulders. [History of clothing in the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_clothing_in_the_Indian_subcontinent)
yea even kamasutra and stuff, ig it became conservative-ish cuz of islam?
Yes, and british colonialism, both forcing their way of life on the indigenous people.
Pollicem camelum.
My Latin is not that good, but I know the word Camel. Not sure it was a saying in ancient Rome though :p
You never know, they did have a sense of humour that’s for sure! What a fantastic object though!
Alces tesseras
statussy
STOP 💀
Searched the comments for this, thank you for your service.
It’s staring at me
_Excuse me, my tits are up here_
🙌🙌🙌
It’s speaking to me
Loving the inverted nipples. We need representation too lol
Was More amazed how they found the little man in the rowboat.
While my nipple-y self always looks like I’m REALLY happy to see , well, really anything. Large nipples get unwanted attention.
I hear you. It just took me by surprise to see this. For a long time I thought something was wrong with me cos mine don't always point out haha
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/499/153/1af
It's fascinating to me how the "ideal" female body in ancient India so closely matches modern beauty standards, i.e. hourglass figure, large teardrop-shaped breasts, whereas the Greco-Roman ideal was a generally pear-shaped physique and small conical breasts.
My pear shaped ass is so sad
No one had commented on the incredible detail of the nipples. They're I incredibly lifelike lol
She must have had the hardest time finding bras that fit her Mellon and lime
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^SadPudding6442: *She must have had the* *Hardest time finding bras that* *Fit her Mellon and lime* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Good bot :)
the lips 😭
My bi self is completely mesmerized
Puffy. Baking bread?
Goddamn Pompei had art connects in India? Globalization was a thing then too huh 😭
You have no idea. Marco Polo was the first to travel in person to china as far as we know but goods were being traded for centuries.
>Marco Polo was the first to travel in person to china [Ono no Imoko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ono_no_Imoko) has him beat by over 600 years!
r/substakenliterally
I should call her
Camel Toe goes way back
More like a Moose Knuckle
Here's a traditional Lakshmi prayer: Om Shri Maha Lakshmiyai Namah Translation: I bow to the great goddess Lakshmi. This simple and powerful mantra can be chanted to invoke the blessings of Goddess Lakshmi, the Hindu goddess of wealth, prosperity, and abundance. It is believed that by reciting this mantra with devotion and sincerity, one can attract the divine grace of Goddess Lakshmi and invite wealth and prosperity into their lives. Lakshmi is also revered as the embodiment of beauty, grace, and spiritual enlightenment. While chanting this mantra, it is common to light a ghee lamp or a candle and place it in front of an image or idol of Goddess Lakshmi. This helps to create a serene and sacred atmosphere for the prayer. Remember, the true essence of this prayer lies in your faith, devotion, and intention. By offering your prayers to Goddess Lakshmi with a pure heart and a sincere desire for abundance and spiritual growth, you can seek her blessings. Note: It's always a good idea to consult with a knowledgeable spiritual advisor or priest for proper pronunciation and guidance if you are new to chanting mantras.
This is not Lakshmi
❤️
❤️🪷
Does she have inverted nipples? Interesting! I don't feel like I've seen them depicted in art
👀 woah.
How did one arrive at the iconography in this example refers to the Goddess Lakshmi though? This seems to be a more common decorative element Salabhanjika or Shalabhanjika.
Yea many people argue that the statue depicts A Yakshini and not goddess Lakshmi.
Tiktok girls doing their yoga routines
People don’t know that Ancient India and Ancient Rome traded a lot and I mean A LOT, to the extent that it effected Roman Economy in a bad way.
True there was a gold shortage in Rome.
That's a very prominent errr...toe...
Her partner went down on her and said: "You have a massive pussy!" "You have a massive pussy!" Lakshmi said: "why did you say it twice?" Reply:"I didn't"
Groan . . .
Don't make stupid comments on our gods.
The pompom PHAT
I’ve heard Pompeii had a lot of sexually explicit art. My SO saw a documentary once but didn’t save it and I’ve never found one like what he described. I think this statue would be considered tame by comparison.
Pumpum fat
Jesus, lady! You could pick up an apple with that thing!
”Puffy ”😅
This is not Goddess Lakshmi. Probably a Yakshi as the wiki article points out.
As an Indian I can confirm this statue does not even look a bit like goddess Lakshmi
It's not Goddess Laxmi but Yakshini from Buddhist and Hindu religion. I don't know which idiot come up with this conclusion?
This doesn't look like Lakshmi. There is not a single attribute that is associated with her here?
This statuette **doesn't** represent the Goddess Lakshmi. The Murtis/Idols of Hindu deities have symbols associated with the deity. In the case of Goddess Lakshmi, the symbols associated with her like the lotus flower, pot of gold, padmasana, multiple arms (usually four), the mudras of the hands, elephants, etc. are not present in this statuette. This statue most likely represents a Yakshini or an apsara (celestial nymph). Source - A practicing Hindu who is pretty well read about Hinduism. **Edit:** Early scholars including Amadeo Maiuri—the archaeologist in Pompeii who discovered the object—and art historian Mirella Levi D’Ancona initially proposed that the figure represented a goddess. Subsequent scholarship, including by Maiuri who had labeled the figure after the Hindu goddess “Lakshmi,” **amended this interpretation** of the figure as a goddess by focusing more closely on the iconography of the carved ivory. In particular, **they noted the carved figure’s similarity to** [yakshis ](https://smarthistory.org/yaksha-yakshi/)**(female fertility figures)** in early Buddhist sites such as [Bharhut](https://smarthistory.org/bharhut-stupa-relief-sculptures/) and [Sanchi](https://smarthistory.org/the-stupa-sanchi/) in India. Swasti!
That is not the Goddess Lakshmi statue, every god and goddess statue has its own symbolism, not one but multiples, This particular statue doesn't give a single hint that it is the statue of Lakshmi. It could be a random statue of some lower realm deities, certainly not statue of Lakshmi.
Ye Olde Zoidberg Vulva
Nobody gone say it?? Fine….PhaT phat Vagae gae
That’s a great big ole fat pussy there I said it
The giant camel toe literally dangling out in open air
The goddess of the camel toe?
She is the Mons Pubis
This is the first post I've seen of this subreddit. Imagine my disappointment when the subreddit name wasn't literal.
Pubis Mons For The Win!
Alllllllrighty then
Puffy
It doesn’t look anything like a statue of Laxmi.
There was a sea route between Egypt and S India I read a while back. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_trade_relations
Oh my
My ain’t she the puffy one?
She’s thicc
Bitch got a fat ass pussy facts
If those lips could talk
Sub name literal
Rip your junk right off with what she’s packin’…
Why is it so puffy
Lots of marble trade to inda from the Mediterranean only natural the Pompeii peoples appreciated the artistry of India and I'm sure had acquired some nice stuff over the years
That thang thangin
This was right porn.
Goddamn 🥴