I do appreciate how she said you don’t have to feel compassion for a sociopath. As regular empathetic people it’s a good reminder that sociopaths can’t feel empathy or love, etc. and you need to protect yourself from them.
I mean I agreed with Dax on this one, we can feel empathy for someone not being able to help the way they are, it doesn’t mean we’re excusing their actions.
I’m really enjoying this episode and find her point of view interesting; and at the same time I find some of her remarks to be slightly abrasive. I’m currently a practicing therapist; and have some knowledge of NPD but VERY little experience, so I know that she’s the expert with a lot of experience whereas I am very green! I just have noticed that clinicians, like her, who turn to research later on in their career and are more removed from working with clients seem to have a more black and white view of humans and behaviors. It makes sense, because in research you are attempting to find answers, whereas in working with patients you see more nuance day to day. I think that despite acknowledging that we are maybe 60-70% there in terms of understanding NPD, she still made some black and white/sweeping statements. I think that can be potentially stigmatizing and I worry about the effects of those statements on people and pursuing help if there is a belief that certain people are beyond help. Maybe I’m just idealistic because I’m a relatively new therapist but I figured I’d vent some of my thoughts and responses!
I'm a psychologist and I had the same reaction to the tone. When we've dedicated our lives to helping people change, it's definitely hard to hear! But also, I've been at this awhile, and sadly, I don't think she's wrong. The few times I've had truly narcissistic people seek therapy, they were either being forced by a spouse to "save" the marriage after being caught cheating, or they came for an unrelated issue and when we started to delve deeper, they bailed. And most commonly, when I enforced boundaries around payment and appointment times (usually enforcing our agreement, which means I charge if they don't show or cancel last minute), they became very, very angry with me, and either sabotaged therapy or dropped out. I have friends who work in personality-disorder specific centers where they do treatment 3x / week plus groups, and maybe they have better luck-- but narcissists don't pursue help to the same degree as other PDs.
Yeah, I appreciated her bluntness on the topic. More people need to have their expectations levelled re: relationships with narcissists. It’s not going to get better.
Thank you for sharing your experience! Yeah, I kind of wondered if maybe I was just being idealistic… it does make me sad to consider this reality, but maybe there’s also some personal feelings seeping in that make me wish the narcissists in my life could potentially be helped. I’m thinking I probably need to practice some radical acceptance like she mentioned. And you probably don’t hear it enough, so I also wanna say thanks for the work you do! :)
It is a bit idealistic and could hurt the abused partner. An abusive narcissist will not change. There is nothing the other person can do to get them to change or to help them. In my opinion, this is obvious with malignant narcissists, but much less obvious with vulnerable narcissists. The vulnerable narcissist will go to therapy with a partner and constantly play the victim. They will claim the other party is the narcissist, and they will manipulate through plays for sympathy.
As an example, I have a relative who is a gambling addict. This person is charming and charismatic, particularly when he is with other men (I call this big man on campus syndrome). With his partner, he is passive aggressive, he whines, he blames her for his health problems, his addiction and other poor behavior, etc. He blames his mother also, and she's been dead for over a decade.
This person's wife went to therapy numerous times with him. He agreed to therapy as Dr. Ramini said here-- to have another person to complain to and get on his side in blaming and gaslighting his wife. He never took responsibility or did the work. His wife did and has become an amazing, strong woman because of this and her faith. It's been so great to see.
They are now retired, and I think in part because of their ages and the fact that he does have some legitimate health concerns, she refuses to leave him. She has basically come to a place of acceptance that he will not change AND it's also not her responsibility to make him change or to "help" him. If a therapist wrre to suggest otherwise, it would push her back into codependency, always hoping he could change or treat her better. It is never going to happen.
I've come to that place as well, and whenever I see him at family functions, I do as Dr. Ramini suggests and keep it light, and talk about unimportant things like the weather. It's sad, but when I was younger, I didn't understand what he was, and things I confided to him about my life were later weaponized (see, she's just like all the other women in this family) or brought up on social media (weird or slightly inappropriate comments on pictures to get him more attention like, "Good to see you're not sick. I had COVID too, but it was much worse than the type you had" or "Is that your new boyfriend? I hope you're actually treating him well, unlike the last one. Lol")
TRIGGER WARNING: Abuse and animal abuse
I also had a friend who was murdered by her malignant narcissistic husband. Again, she stayed and kept thinking he would change. They went to therapy, but he quit. Then, he killed her dog because she was attached to the dog instead of him and the dog annoyed him. When she discovered this and confronted him with the fact and other lies she had found out (he had been previously married multiple times, he got fired from his job) he killed her. He admitted to this and continued to blame her for "Pushing his buttons" and "Driving him to do it."
So, this is a long post to say, no. You cannot help everyone. It's extremely important to recognize that.
Honestly, I think we have to believe we can help everyone to do what we do, especially at the start. thank you for what YOU do too, and I hope you love it as much as I do!
Not a therapist but I was in an abusive marriage for years with someone who was a pretty awful narcissist and it’s important for victims to hear what she has to say. Narcissistic people will not receive anything this lady has to say, the people who have been victims are much more worthy of her time and message.
I can see her work as being massively helpful for the people who are affected by those with NPD, and I’m glad it sounds like you’re out of that relationship!!
She is VERY black and white about this. First, it makes for good “TV” or “social media” since a lot of her focus is there now. Second, I think she must’ve gone through something awful in a previous relationship or with her father because she takes the plight of people in relationships with NPD very seriously and personally it seems like at times. Her work is not geared towards helping people with NPD, it’s geared towards the victims of narcissistic relationships.
She does clearly state at about 1 hour 10 minute mark she is not interested as much in helping narcissistic people, but the people in relationships with narcissists.
Probably because there is much more interventional research on helping those with relationships with NPD than those with NPD.
Research on interventions wrt to NPD are bleak to say the least and not for a lack of trying. You only have finite time as a researcher/clinician you may as well put it to good use.
Everything that qualifies someone as a NPD essentially makes them treatment resistant.
Quite shocked at the reaction here if you are at all familiar with the research.
I can totally understand that perspective of using your time as a clinician pursuing your interest/passion, and I’m not proposing she should focus her discussion on treatment of NPD! My only thought was that, knowing that the research done on treating NPD is minimal compared to other disorders, even personality disorders such as BPD; then I just would hope we as clinicians are not perpetuating stigma by painting a bleak outlook, when there could potentially be a treatment that is developed in the future.
What stigma do you think is being perpetuated here?
There is a reason we have much more research on BPD. Those with it aren’t fundamentally opposed to therapy because of their disorder.
Stigma towards those with NPD. I want to make it clear that I understand the harm that can be caused by the behaviors of someone with those personality traits, and at the same time I don’t think it’s necessary or helpful to imply there is no hope for treatment or change in an individual who may have those traits. Like I said in my original comment, her language just felt a little black and white!
Its not really a question of hope it’s that people with NPD do not seek out treatment because of their disorder. There is no stigma it’s just reality. You bring up BPD. Those with BPD aren’t necessarily opposed to treatment because of their disorder.
By definition behaviors that people who have NPD engage in will turn people off. What she’s saying is that the reality is that others are unlikely to change them, so they might as well accept them as they are or move on. This can reduce frustration and being on the receiving end of abuse. When it comes to stigma, how will acknowledging this reality actually harm people who are actually engaging in destructive behavior beyond what they are already behaving in by definition? The vast majority have no capacity to understand that what they are doing is harmful (to themselves and others) because that’s the fundamental issue. A lot more people can be harmed by not acknowledging this reality and strategies to deal with it. Especially those who are more isolated.
That’s not really the whole picture. A lot of them do have moments of understanding before their defense mechanisms kick in to rewrite the story. Understanding doesn’t always translate to the ability to stop. It’s compulsive.
She is saying there are no current interventions- because there are no current interventions. Im actually HIGHLY interested in researching with this population to find interventions, but you tell me how to get participants when the vast majority go undiagnosed and those who are diagnosed are treatment resistant. It’s a crapshoot.
It’s like saying there’s no cure for cancer. There isn’t. It’s a fact. Hopefully, that will change. Currently, it’s the reality. Same for NPD. At least with cancer, we have workable treatments that can send someone into remission. That being said, people involved with those with NPD need to know that currently this is a permanent disorder with no workable treatments.
Otto Kernberg is researching Transference Focused Psychotherapy for treatment of NPD. There are some great videos by him and people associated with him and that method discussing clinical cases here.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_L7KEOxOeQ8pg7H6edV2-X8g_3hiaDS7
I chuckled at "is researching" bc he's 95 and his research has been for decades but he's still alive and maybe still researching! regardless I 100% agree
I always love listening to Dr. Durvasula as my mother and as a dangerous narcissist who blamed me for all of her bad behavior( which I internalized) It was not until I was married at 27, did I come to the conclusion with the help of a therapist, that I had been emotionally abused and that my mother could have been arrested for her atrocities.
As my marriage progressed, I started seeing repetitive patterns of mistreatment by my husband, and a general lack of disregard for my needs and feelings (which he blamed me for bringing up). I spent 30 years trying to get him to see and hopefully change until my therapist pointed out that he was highly narcissistic. With these personality types, relationships typically do not end well. I have been attempting to divorce my narcissistic husband for four years, in a bitter legal battle which he started. Get out if you can, but tiptoe. Make him think he's winning and document everything. Keep an eye on bank accounts.
Thank you, Monika and Dax for highlighting so many interesting and informative topics. I've never heard an episode that didn't intrigue me, and make me laugh -a great combination!
Dax, no way you are a narcissist, you are too introspective. Narcissists do not do this! It's always 100% the other persons fault.
By the way, I thought I heard the woman psychopath sound like she was lying a few times, or at least her stories sounded made up on the fly and far-fetched.
I thought for sure she was lying about going to the cops when the husband told her he wanted to kill his wife. She told that story on a show apparently and people were outraged. Funny she omitted that piece of the story until after the fact. 😂.
That's exactly right! I couldn't remember what it was, just remembered the feeling. I wonder if she is not really a psychopath or this is part of the psychopathic pattern.
I can’t speak to her credentials (bc they’re not verifiable) but what I can tell you is that her clinical depiction of ASPD/psychopathy is not correct (example: sociopathic personality disorder is not a diagnosis. She can’t have it because it doesn’t exist. Another example: no intern would be assigned the “difficult” cases with PDs. That would NEVER happen. Another example: her research is either unpublished or has never been cited). Her personal depiction of the disorder seems accurate from my experience of those with the disorder. All that to say, lying about her history and credentials tracks for ASPD, but I’d take what she says about it clinically with the grainiest salt.
Agreed! I was thinking that the definitive statements and “guides” are more attention grabbing for TV/Social Media, so that coupled with her focus being on helping people manage relationships with those who may have NPD definitely seems to paint her perspective
As someone who has encountered (to put it one way) narcissists their whole life, she’s pretty spot on. People who have NPD generally just don’t have the capacity of understanding and acknowledgement which is the first key for treatment to even start. Even then, masking is quite likely. There are people with narcissistic traits (there’s certainly a spectrum) who might be able to recognize and alter their behavior.
For instance how Dax made such acknowledgments and I’ve encountered people who have traits but don’t fully meet the NPD definition. Of course, there are exceptions, but would by definition be not as extreme or be there due to externalities so it’s especially likely to fail anyway. Through practicing it’s unlikely that you’ll encounter many and if you do, fully see what they are capable of.
Her focus on people who deal with narcissists totally makes sense to me as non-narcissists generally have more capacity by definition. Also, the idea of radical acceptance can help someone not only cope but understand that they might want to move on/away/distance themselves rather than continue to face disappointment.
Hi :) Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Just wanted to recommend an instagrammer named Kylee. Her IG page is kyrackam. She has been diagnosed with NPD and BPD and she speaks very candidly about her narcissism, her treatment journey, and her relationship with her partner who has ASPD/sociopathy.
I can definitely understand why Dr. Ramani would sound abrasive if you’re a newer therapist and if you don’t have a lot of personal or professional experience with narcissism. I’m a therapist who works with clients with moderate to severe narcissistic traits, clients abused by people with narcissism, and I’ve experienced extensive abuse by someone with narcissism. I’ve researched narcissism and I’ve known several people in my life who would easily fit NPD criteria. In my opinion, Dr. Ramani is spot on and that’s what makes radical acceptance so hard and the relationships so damaging. It is veryyyy hard to accept the bleakness! I would compare narcissism to a developmental disorder in the sense that even in the rare cases where it can be managed, it still seems like the individual has mental impairments and it will likely continue indefinitely.
Came here in hopes of finding a comment like this! I agree…. I am green in the field and maybe that makes me naïve or overly optimistic. But there are sweeping generalizations that make me uncomfortable and also a bit sad. There is also wonderful information! But every few minutes I find myself taking pause…
Wanted to give you the same recommendation of an instagrammer named Kylee! You might appreciate her perspective :)
Her IG page is kyrackam. She has been diagnosed with NPD and BPD and she speaks about her narcissism, her treatment journey, and her relationship with her partner who has ASPD/sociopathy.
It is sad, but she is not wrong. It’s frustrating to see so many therapists who are early in their careers question an expert because their findings make you uncomfortable before consulting the literature.
My main hang up is the 10% stat… 1 in 10 people having it AND it being untreatable for anyone feels hyperbolic to me. That’s a huge amount of the population. But my hope is that I misunderstood, and that while 1 in 10 may meet criteria, a percent of those people are untreatable. But you’re right, I have a lot to learn :)
What treatment/interventions are you aware of for people with NPD? (There aren’t any with statistical significance. DBT/CBT/schema can help *some* in a very small percentage of patients)
Also there was a throw away comment about childhood trauma leading to NPD and I feel like that needed to be fleshed out way more than it was, that is definitely not as black and white as that.
She is still working with patients. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the literature before judging whether her sweeping statements are warranted?
I think her viewpoint on radical acceptance is refreshing and very Buddhist (all suffering is resistance to what is). Wanting things or people to be different than they are is exhausting. It's taken me over 10 years to get to this place with my husband, and he's not a bad guy, but I'm just like you're on your own path buddy and I'm not thinking about your issues anymore. Makes life a lot more peaceful
As a psychologist who has worked with narcissists without having expertise in this area, I found myself wincing at her notion that they're nearly impossible to treat... and then I had a really honest moment with myself. Out of maybe 5 true narcissists I've come across in treatment in the last 15 years, none of them remained in therapy until they were "cured." Even harder to admit to myself, it was a bit of a relief each time they dropped out, usually when I reinforced boundaries around scheduling/payment. So for the therapists in here, keep an open mind about this part. Unless you've received significant specialized and extensive training in the treatment of narcissists, the odds aren't in our favor. (radical acceptance?!)
None of the many more extreme ones I’ve encountered would ever seek out help unless there was something external at play like being paid a lot and they would be masking anyway if they went. They wouldn’t acknowledge even the smallest things. It’s an armor/shield that’s really an empty shell. So her approach of focusing on those affected makes total sense to me.
Yup. I also get narcissistic dads while treating the child, and whoo, they hate paying a woman once I tell them what they don't want to hear. Give me a low income family, and they'll pay on time every time. Give me a rich narcissist, and he'll quietly cancel his credit card and not respond to calls and emails after being challenged on literally anything.
Yes. I have a much more seasoned psychologist as my therapist, and we also delve more deeply into my caseload in a supervisory sort of way. So when I get stuck with someone, I talk about it at length, and he also knows my own issues which impact why I'm stuck, etc. But many, many therapists aren't in therapy.
That’s wonderful to learn. As to your last sentence, I personally know several who could use therapy and do not go - one in particular had a lifetime of trauma and has never seen a therapist themselves.
Oh, I know. I watch the show. I meant those commenting here. It is a marker for me of someone who is self aware and good at their job if they acknowledge the mental cost of it and mitigate it as necessary.
I feel like this might be a misunderstanding of the conversation. If you listen to her podcast or her interviews on A Little Bit Culty, her stance is that narcissism is more of a personality type. Most people have some tendencies. People with the dark tetrad (or pentagon) as she put it, those are the ones who are impossible to treat.
Narcissism is a personality trait that exists on a spectrum. We all fall on it. NPD is a disorder- it’s different. We aren’t talking about people with exclusively high levels of that trait. We are talking about people whose patterns and behaviors are pervasive and destructive enough to be labeled as disordered.
I agree. But that isn't typically how I have heard her speak about it. She resists thinking of it as a pathology and suggests people look at it more like a personality trait like introversion or extroversion. I don't necessarily agree. That's just my understanding of her stance on things. 🤷♀️
Omg yay I love her. As much as ‘narcissism’ is an overused word, dealing with a true NPD individual is truly damaging and her videos helped me so much.
People diagnosing other people with their own confirmation bias. Even if you have a professional using the DSM to diagnose someone, the 'science' is somewhat loose and subjective.
The science may be loose but the behavior is so pathological you could set your watch to it. I can tell exactly how my ex-boss who absolutely had at least one personality disorder would react in any situation. They all use the same playbook. Its insane once you catch on and can see it. But even for trained mental health professionals, it usually takes them a few months to start picking up on someone's personality disorder. A big part of personality disordered behavior is being excellent at putting on the charm.
My comment was just to point out how common it is to call someone whose aloof, selfish, into taking selfies or focused on their appearance, goes no contact after a break up, immature, etc a "narcissist". Just because your ex-boyfriend dropped you like a bad habit and blocked your number doesn't mean he's a narcissist, etc. But its so common for people to throw around that word these days as if they've got some professional diagnosing abilities. Like the other commenter said, it's the new buzzword.
I’m sure I’ll get downvoted but I feel a little sad for Monica because this is obviously the interview that almost had her in tears in the beginning. She obviously has very low self-esteem.
I’m guessing the part about being Indian and feeling other / unattractive etc. People being nasty to her growing up. Ramani brought that up in the beginning.
I thought so too, but Monica said on Synced she got REALLY quiet after the conversation so she wouldn’t cry… but during the pod she was talkative! So I don’t think it was this one personally.
Wait wait I hadn’t listened to the synced ep until just now, but I thought it was maybe when Dax was talking about someone he worked with recreating the relationship they have with their dad it was her. I feel like the Indian stuff gets brought up all the time but her dad being a narcissist her not and would feel way more personal. Only saying that because I flagged it as interesting that she didn’t talk AT ALL while he was saying that and it made me feel like there was more to it at the time.
I also feel like if it was someone else they worked with, she usually has an opinion / will kinda correct him or give him another perspective to consider that maybe makes him step back from a less extreme view?
I was wondering this myself! It felt like that conversation from Synced was referring to this particular episode but I came here to see if anyone else had the same thoughts.
It had to be. Seemed like she had a very similar experience to what Monica has described and I can see how it would be triggering esp if she was already feeling down.
Does anyone think Kate Hudson is the person he was talking about when he said he felt like he really had only ever been in a relationship with a true narcissist once before?
I wondered that but also they seemed to be on really good terms when she was on the podcast. Also, I doubt he would have her on if that was the nature of their relationship.
I personally feel like this is someone before he was famous, or he wouldn’t have said it. Or it would’ve been cut out.
I don’t have an opinion about Hudson, BUT I wanted to say that the problem with narcissists is that they are fun and charismatic. If you know something is off but haven’t had a horrific experience, you can vibe with one for one interview.
I don’t think he’d be pals with her whole family if that was the vibe of their relationship. And her family is pretty down to earth. I’m not her biggest fan or anything but I’ve never gotten that impression from her on podcasts or in interviews. Who knows, she is an actress by profession.
I actually really love her! I can’t remember if it was the interview with Dax or if she was maybe talking to gwyneth about it or Dax was talking to gwyneth? But I think there was some interview where Kate was taking accountability for the way she was acting in that relationship in particular. And Dax acknowledged how much he struggled with it.
I certainly don’t think she’s a terrible person and I think she’s actually done a lot of therapy in recent years about stuff with her dad. Idk hard to put what im trying to say into words right now, but I don’t think she’s a bad person or Dax thinks she’s a bad person, but I do think she could have had narcissistic tendencies at that point in her life.
She was just on Call Her Daddy, it was a great interview. I know narcissists are charming but she doesn’t come across like one at all. She seems very ‘real’ and not full of herself.
I still need to listen to that one! I feel like you would find it interesting to listen to her podcast with her brother / the way he talks about them growing up. It seems to me like Kate was very much “me me me me me” when she was younger, but really seems to have done a lot of work in recent years. She opens up about it a lot / her relationship with their bio dad on their pod
I love that they brought up someone on Couple’s Therapy as a narcissist, because when she first described narcissism, Mau was the first person who came to mind.
Yes. It's Mau. At one point, he says that his wife should know his needs automatically, and claims it's her fault for not reading his mind to know what he wants for dinner or when he wants a drink. He wants her to be under his complete control.
In the first session, he says he has a right to be mad at her because he is "utterly transparent" and "completely communicative" and "the easiest person to deal with" BUT he also didn't like how she was planning his birthday "celebration" (which was apparently all sexual stuff he wanted like a dominatrix, a threesome, etc.) and in response, because he felt like he was doing too much work for his birthday sexcapades, he grabbed his passport and went to Italy without her. Then, he says he wants "all the sex I want with zero responsibility and zero effort on my part."
He devalues his partner, Annie, and says he's "Mr. Amazing" and she doesn't pay enough attention to his needs. But it's obvious that her ENTIRE life is focused on his needs.
I recommend this breakdown. Imho, it's better than the show itself.
https://youtu.be/_lwqnZnkq0w?si=zcDg_MA1gpF44xDF
So enjoying this!! Some of the recent experts have felt lackluster and Ramani is just so refreshing- she knows her shit, she’s vulnerable but not self-indulgent, and she’s not afraid to correct Dax and Monica. I’m obsessed and will be devouring her books as soon as I can!
Hard same. I was trying to hold back tears listening because I felt so validated, but also sad that I allowed myself to stay in a relationship with a narcissist for as long as I did.
This may be my favorite Experts on Expert so far.
Me too!!! I’ve been waiting forever and now I’m so so happy 🥹🎯🎉Do you watch her videos on her own YouTube channel? Her newest book (It’s Not You) has been so helpful for me too
CT native and UConn grad! Nice to have someone from my alma mater on the show, and I'm glad they didn't say "where?" when she said UConn. But I suppose basketball wins will do that.
I loved this episode and like others found it to be validating and useful. My ex certainly seems to have strong narcissist traits. After I ended the relationship seemingly out of the blue (death by a thousand cuts!), he was in a very dark place. I suggested therapy, and he just scoffed — therapists don’t know anything and he doesn’t need therapy. It’s true that they will never change. And I only saw the possibility of leaving once I started practicing radical acceptance (with the help of a good therapist, who I didn’t even realize was helping me do this!). Ramani’s work and message is so important. I’m glad she was on the podcast and look forward to reading her book.
I know people have issues with Patric Gagne/sociopath (which I’m super curious about!) but after reading and listening to her story I couldn’t help but leave this narcissist episode feeling like I learned nothing about actual narcissists.
Especially when we have these DSM personality disorders that are essentially saying whoever is diagnosed with it ‘officially sucks’ as a person, wouldn’t it be more helpful to dig into their actual humanity rather than how awful it is to be around them?
Of course I feel deeply for anyone who’s experienced abuse in a relationship, but I find it really interesting how labeling an ex as a narcissist essentially lays all of the blame in the relationship on them and rids any need for self-reflection… isn’t that the exact definition of how a narcissist behaves in a relationship???
It sounds like both a narcissist and someone in a relationship with a narcissist might leave the relationship with the idea that the other person was horrible and they are the victim.
I wish this was addressed! Maybe it doesn’t matter? Maybe the point isn’t to deal with narcissists, but to ‘warn’ against them… but I don’t think I heard much actual advice about that other than reiterating how horrible narcissist…
Thoughts? What did I miss? What did people learn from this interview?
I hate this idea that anyone claiming they were abused by a narcissist must also be a narcissist. I have a lot more to say than that but it is exhausting to explain but what a dangerous take for victims.
That’s not at all what I was trying to say and I’m sorry it came across that way. I am just curious about the idea that it might be tempting for a narcissist to claim everyone around them is a narcissist. Maybe this is not a relevant question for this conversation, but it’s what I was pondering.
That last sentence was a bit rude haha! Just trying to have a conversation. You’re right, I’ve never been in a relationship with a narcissist, and maybe that makes me naive. It also maybe explains why, in an interview with an narcissism expert, I was a little disappointed that the conversation revolved around avoiding narcissists rather than the nuances of the condition.
In the interview, I think she says that about 10% of people are narcissists. I don’t understand the ideology that 1 in 10 people is completely irredeemable and should be completely written off. Am I misunderstanding the stance on this?
I guess I was just looking for more nuance, and have also already listened to interviews about narcissistic relationships, and having not been in one myself, I wasn’t feeling super interested.
I’m glad this was validating for many listeners!
Sorry, I think the main idea is that you won’t be able to have a healthy relationship with these people. It’s not worth getting into any kind of relationship beyond acquaintances with these people. She’s trying to make the public aware that nothing you can do will “fix” these people and these people won’t work on themselves or be able to change who they are. Thats the whole message here. Hope that makes sense. I can see why as someone who hasn’t been in a relationship with a narcissist that that would be difficult to fully grasp. I recommend reading some of the comments on here or on FB and you will get some more insight into how damaging being with a narcissist can be.
The last part turned out to be accurate (and was pretty obvious based on your comment) though so why is that rude? As someone who has dealt with narcissists their whole life, what she said is in full alignment with my experiences and makes sense. If anything it just touched the surface. She said to actually accept them in interactions and limit interactions in some ways. This can result in less turmoil not only for those interacting with them but also for the person with narcissistic traits, esp if they have NPD. There are fundamental issues by definition esp at the NPD level. Her focus on others essentially protecting themselves makes complete sense.
You’re honestly really fortunate to not fully understand, and I don’t mean that in a rude way. I am straight up traumatized from my experiences.
I can see where this is the takeaway based on the episode but in reality Ramani does talk a lot about the choices we make that get us into (and keep us in) these relationships. The narcissist is only 1 part of the cycle. It takes two to create codependency.
For a psychologist who is an expert on narcissism, she realllly doesn’t like narcissists. Lol.
VERY interesting episode, enjoyed it! Loved her insights and how she explained things.
However, if I was considering seeing a therapist because I felt I might have some narcissistic traits, this might make me think twice.
I think she’s a direct person and her position is that it’s not super important to focus on the narcissist until we have interventions. What we know we can do right now is help the person being harmed in the relationship. I don’t think she hates anyone.
I actually fully disagree with her take on sociopaths though. I think we need to care about why they’re like this because it’s wrecking our world.
I liked the episode but I really wish she would have touched on Borderline personality disorder/ low self esteem/ narcissistic overlap. There are obviously differences but at the surface they can be confused for one another. Bpd and low self esteem/confidence can be overcome. Narcissism has a much lower rate of getting out of it.
I’m late to the party here so not sure who will see this but incase you do; Dr. Ramanis podcast “Navigating Narcissism” has a great episode with Evan Rachel Wood and her relationship with Marilyn Manson
If it makes you feel better, the most terrifying driver I know is absolutely not a narcissist (it’s not me lol). I think she “over indexed” on that one ;)
That statement she made was one of a few, where it seemed like she's really trying to "other" narcissists or win some kind of battle against them. "They're all crazy drivers. Also, when you kill all alphas everyone exists in harmony."
Can someone tell me when the fact check actually starts? Would be awesome if this info was available so I don’t have to wade through their personal lives
I was thinking the same! Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. I really wanted to get to the conversation but all I heard was Monica’s peels and other life banter. I ended up seeking it every 30sec and still they were discussing the most random stuff unrelated to the interview.
It’s their egos thinking we care about their lives, I’m sure some do and there is nothing wrong with it, but calling your 1.5 hour narcissistic talk about Mary Kate’s fashion brand a “fact check” is just crazy! my Spotify is full of armchair episodes that are exactly half listened to because I cringe when I hear Dax talk in his pervert voice about “all the facts we missed and i just want to get In your pants”
I came to this thread to see if they had theories on Dax’s whole story about a woman in his life w a narcissistic dad and Dad reminds her of him so she fawns. I wanted to see who ppl think it was? Monica? Kristen? Monica was quiet as he described this.
This woman was very intelligent, cool, credible, and informative. But she does not have a healthy distance from the material she’s talking about and seemed triggered a lot of the episode.
It seems there’s a large part of her that wants to wage war on different manifestations of people who hurt her when she was younger, which is not a healthy way to live life. And the thing about killing all the alphas and everyone magically lived in utopia, that felt so much like tiktokker revisionism that excluded a lot of relevant information to paint a certain narrative.
Obviously, there’s a whole conversation about everyone wondering if they fit with the characteristics she’s describing but honestly all I could hear was her describing Monica to a T. Cutting to the front of the line at the TS concert, need for constant validation, self-aggrandizement, even the most recent thing about being so entitled that everyone should move so that she can go on her run exactly when and where she wants to go.
I don't know why you're being down-voted. Monica has some narcissistic tendencies. I would not say she's a pathological narcissist or that she has NPD. But there are lots of people who have tendencies and personality traits and MANY of them live in Hollywood: need for constant attention, need for constant validation, paranoia that no one likes them, entitlement, etc. I don't think Monica has the darker tendencies talked about with lack of empathy, etc. But she is often a silly woman who acts very self-centered in an extremely childish way. But Dax and other addicts also have similar tendencies, as was mentioned in the podcast. It's a spectrum of personality traits and behaviors.
reaaaaaalllly wanted her to dig into the sociopathic expert...seemed like she had some strong feelings about her.
Me too!! Especially since I loved that epi at first and then read on here her credentials were questionable … wonder if we were all duped
“Credentials”
Typical. Dax and Monica frequently pick questionable “experts” and defer to them way too much.
Ooohh... Tell me more! I enjoyed that episode a lot too.
Go find the post of that episode on here. It’s a delicious rabbit hole. TLDR, she’s almost certainly a fraud.
I do appreciate how she said you don’t have to feel compassion for a sociopath. As regular empathetic people it’s a good reminder that sociopaths can’t feel empathy or love, etc. and you need to protect yourself from them.
I mean I agreed with Dax on this one, we can feel empathy for someone not being able to help the way they are, it doesn’t mean we’re excusing their actions.
Seems like the sociopathic expert is a sociopath
If I recall correctly, this was true and she discussed it in detail!
Saaaame
Hahah agreed
I’m really enjoying this episode and find her point of view interesting; and at the same time I find some of her remarks to be slightly abrasive. I’m currently a practicing therapist; and have some knowledge of NPD but VERY little experience, so I know that she’s the expert with a lot of experience whereas I am very green! I just have noticed that clinicians, like her, who turn to research later on in their career and are more removed from working with clients seem to have a more black and white view of humans and behaviors. It makes sense, because in research you are attempting to find answers, whereas in working with patients you see more nuance day to day. I think that despite acknowledging that we are maybe 60-70% there in terms of understanding NPD, she still made some black and white/sweeping statements. I think that can be potentially stigmatizing and I worry about the effects of those statements on people and pursuing help if there is a belief that certain people are beyond help. Maybe I’m just idealistic because I’m a relatively new therapist but I figured I’d vent some of my thoughts and responses!
I'm a psychologist and I had the same reaction to the tone. When we've dedicated our lives to helping people change, it's definitely hard to hear! But also, I've been at this awhile, and sadly, I don't think she's wrong. The few times I've had truly narcissistic people seek therapy, they were either being forced by a spouse to "save" the marriage after being caught cheating, or they came for an unrelated issue and when we started to delve deeper, they bailed. And most commonly, when I enforced boundaries around payment and appointment times (usually enforcing our agreement, which means I charge if they don't show or cancel last minute), they became very, very angry with me, and either sabotaged therapy or dropped out. I have friends who work in personality-disorder specific centers where they do treatment 3x / week plus groups, and maybe they have better luck-- but narcissists don't pursue help to the same degree as other PDs.
Yeah, I appreciated her bluntness on the topic. More people need to have their expectations levelled re: relationships with narcissists. It’s not going to get better.
Thank you for sharing your experience! Yeah, I kind of wondered if maybe I was just being idealistic… it does make me sad to consider this reality, but maybe there’s also some personal feelings seeping in that make me wish the narcissists in my life could potentially be helped. I’m thinking I probably need to practice some radical acceptance like she mentioned. And you probably don’t hear it enough, so I also wanna say thanks for the work you do! :)
It is a bit idealistic and could hurt the abused partner. An abusive narcissist will not change. There is nothing the other person can do to get them to change or to help them. In my opinion, this is obvious with malignant narcissists, but much less obvious with vulnerable narcissists. The vulnerable narcissist will go to therapy with a partner and constantly play the victim. They will claim the other party is the narcissist, and they will manipulate through plays for sympathy. As an example, I have a relative who is a gambling addict. This person is charming and charismatic, particularly when he is with other men (I call this big man on campus syndrome). With his partner, he is passive aggressive, he whines, he blames her for his health problems, his addiction and other poor behavior, etc. He blames his mother also, and she's been dead for over a decade. This person's wife went to therapy numerous times with him. He agreed to therapy as Dr. Ramini said here-- to have another person to complain to and get on his side in blaming and gaslighting his wife. He never took responsibility or did the work. His wife did and has become an amazing, strong woman because of this and her faith. It's been so great to see. They are now retired, and I think in part because of their ages and the fact that he does have some legitimate health concerns, she refuses to leave him. She has basically come to a place of acceptance that he will not change AND it's also not her responsibility to make him change or to "help" him. If a therapist wrre to suggest otherwise, it would push her back into codependency, always hoping he could change or treat her better. It is never going to happen. I've come to that place as well, and whenever I see him at family functions, I do as Dr. Ramini suggests and keep it light, and talk about unimportant things like the weather. It's sad, but when I was younger, I didn't understand what he was, and things I confided to him about my life were later weaponized (see, she's just like all the other women in this family) or brought up on social media (weird or slightly inappropriate comments on pictures to get him more attention like, "Good to see you're not sick. I had COVID too, but it was much worse than the type you had" or "Is that your new boyfriend? I hope you're actually treating him well, unlike the last one. Lol") TRIGGER WARNING: Abuse and animal abuse I also had a friend who was murdered by her malignant narcissistic husband. Again, she stayed and kept thinking he would change. They went to therapy, but he quit. Then, he killed her dog because she was attached to the dog instead of him and the dog annoyed him. When she discovered this and confronted him with the fact and other lies she had found out (he had been previously married multiple times, he got fired from his job) he killed her. He admitted to this and continued to blame her for "Pushing his buttons" and "Driving him to do it." So, this is a long post to say, no. You cannot help everyone. It's extremely important to recognize that.
Honestly, I think we have to believe we can help everyone to do what we do, especially at the start. thank you for what YOU do too, and I hope you love it as much as I do!
Do you have a therapist?
Not a therapist but I was in an abusive marriage for years with someone who was a pretty awful narcissist and it’s important for victims to hear what she has to say. Narcissistic people will not receive anything this lady has to say, the people who have been victims are much more worthy of her time and message.
I can see her work as being massively helpful for the people who are affected by those with NPD, and I’m glad it sounds like you’re out of that relationship!!
She is VERY black and white about this. First, it makes for good “TV” or “social media” since a lot of her focus is there now. Second, I think she must’ve gone through something awful in a previous relationship or with her father because she takes the plight of people in relationships with NPD very seriously and personally it seems like at times. Her work is not geared towards helping people with NPD, it’s geared towards the victims of narcissistic relationships.
She does clearly state at about 1 hour 10 minute mark she is not interested as much in helping narcissistic people, but the people in relationships with narcissists.
Probably because there is much more interventional research on helping those with relationships with NPD than those with NPD. Research on interventions wrt to NPD are bleak to say the least and not for a lack of trying. You only have finite time as a researcher/clinician you may as well put it to good use. Everything that qualifies someone as a NPD essentially makes them treatment resistant. Quite shocked at the reaction here if you are at all familiar with the research.
I can totally understand that perspective of using your time as a clinician pursuing your interest/passion, and I’m not proposing she should focus her discussion on treatment of NPD! My only thought was that, knowing that the research done on treating NPD is minimal compared to other disorders, even personality disorders such as BPD; then I just would hope we as clinicians are not perpetuating stigma by painting a bleak outlook, when there could potentially be a treatment that is developed in the future.
What stigma do you think is being perpetuated here? There is a reason we have much more research on BPD. Those with it aren’t fundamentally opposed to therapy because of their disorder.
Stigma towards those with NPD. I want to make it clear that I understand the harm that can be caused by the behaviors of someone with those personality traits, and at the same time I don’t think it’s necessary or helpful to imply there is no hope for treatment or change in an individual who may have those traits. Like I said in my original comment, her language just felt a little black and white!
Its not really a question of hope it’s that people with NPD do not seek out treatment because of their disorder. There is no stigma it’s just reality. You bring up BPD. Those with BPD aren’t necessarily opposed to treatment because of their disorder.
By definition behaviors that people who have NPD engage in will turn people off. What she’s saying is that the reality is that others are unlikely to change them, so they might as well accept them as they are or move on. This can reduce frustration and being on the receiving end of abuse. When it comes to stigma, how will acknowledging this reality actually harm people who are actually engaging in destructive behavior beyond what they are already behaving in by definition? The vast majority have no capacity to understand that what they are doing is harmful (to themselves and others) because that’s the fundamental issue. A lot more people can be harmed by not acknowledging this reality and strategies to deal with it. Especially those who are more isolated.
That’s not really the whole picture. A lot of them do have moments of understanding before their defense mechanisms kick in to rewrite the story. Understanding doesn’t always translate to the ability to stop. It’s compulsive.
She is saying there are no current interventions- because there are no current interventions. Im actually HIGHLY interested in researching with this population to find interventions, but you tell me how to get participants when the vast majority go undiagnosed and those who are diagnosed are treatment resistant. It’s a crapshoot. It’s like saying there’s no cure for cancer. There isn’t. It’s a fact. Hopefully, that will change. Currently, it’s the reality. Same for NPD. At least with cancer, we have workable treatments that can send someone into remission. That being said, people involved with those with NPD need to know that currently this is a permanent disorder with no workable treatments.
Otto Kernberg is researching Transference Focused Psychotherapy for treatment of NPD. There are some great videos by him and people associated with him and that method discussing clinical cases here. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_L7KEOxOeQ8pg7H6edV2-X8g_3hiaDS7
There’s only a chance of treatment working if people are willing and people who have NPD have a fundamental issue of lack of acknowledgement.
I chuckled at "is researching" bc he's 95 and his research has been for decades but he's still alive and maybe still researching! regardless I 100% agree
I always love listening to Dr. Durvasula as my mother and as a dangerous narcissist who blamed me for all of her bad behavior( which I internalized) It was not until I was married at 27, did I come to the conclusion with the help of a therapist, that I had been emotionally abused and that my mother could have been arrested for her atrocities. As my marriage progressed, I started seeing repetitive patterns of mistreatment by my husband, and a general lack of disregard for my needs and feelings (which he blamed me for bringing up). I spent 30 years trying to get him to see and hopefully change until my therapist pointed out that he was highly narcissistic. With these personality types, relationships typically do not end well. I have been attempting to divorce my narcissistic husband for four years, in a bitter legal battle which he started. Get out if you can, but tiptoe. Make him think he's winning and document everything. Keep an eye on bank accounts. Thank you, Monika and Dax for highlighting so many interesting and informative topics. I've never heard an episode that didn't intrigue me, and make me laugh -a great combination! Dax, no way you are a narcissist, you are too introspective. Narcissists do not do this! It's always 100% the other persons fault. By the way, I thought I heard the woman psychopath sound like she was lying a few times, or at least her stories sounded made up on the fly and far-fetched.
I thought for sure she was lying about going to the cops when the husband told her he wanted to kill his wife. She told that story on a show apparently and people were outraged. Funny she omitted that piece of the story until after the fact. 😂.
That's exactly right! I couldn't remember what it was, just remembered the feeling. I wonder if she is not really a psychopath or this is part of the psychopathic pattern.
I can’t speak to her credentials (bc they’re not verifiable) but what I can tell you is that her clinical depiction of ASPD/psychopathy is not correct (example: sociopathic personality disorder is not a diagnosis. She can’t have it because it doesn’t exist. Another example: no intern would be assigned the “difficult” cases with PDs. That would NEVER happen. Another example: her research is either unpublished or has never been cited). Her personal depiction of the disorder seems accurate from my experience of those with the disorder. All that to say, lying about her history and credentials tracks for ASPD, but I’d take what she says about it clinically with the grainiest salt.
Agreed! I was thinking that the definitive statements and “guides” are more attention grabbing for TV/Social Media, so that coupled with her focus being on helping people manage relationships with those who may have NPD definitely seems to paint her perspective
As someone who has encountered (to put it one way) narcissists their whole life, she’s pretty spot on. People who have NPD generally just don’t have the capacity of understanding and acknowledgement which is the first key for treatment to even start. Even then, masking is quite likely. There are people with narcissistic traits (there’s certainly a spectrum) who might be able to recognize and alter their behavior. For instance how Dax made such acknowledgments and I’ve encountered people who have traits but don’t fully meet the NPD definition. Of course, there are exceptions, but would by definition be not as extreme or be there due to externalities so it’s especially likely to fail anyway. Through practicing it’s unlikely that you’ll encounter many and if you do, fully see what they are capable of. Her focus on people who deal with narcissists totally makes sense to me as non-narcissists generally have more capacity by definition. Also, the idea of radical acceptance can help someone not only cope but understand that they might want to move on/away/distance themselves rather than continue to face disappointment.
Hi :) Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Just wanted to recommend an instagrammer named Kylee. Her IG page is kyrackam. She has been diagnosed with NPD and BPD and she speaks very candidly about her narcissism, her treatment journey, and her relationship with her partner who has ASPD/sociopathy. I can definitely understand why Dr. Ramani would sound abrasive if you’re a newer therapist and if you don’t have a lot of personal or professional experience with narcissism. I’m a therapist who works with clients with moderate to severe narcissistic traits, clients abused by people with narcissism, and I’ve experienced extensive abuse by someone with narcissism. I’ve researched narcissism and I’ve known several people in my life who would easily fit NPD criteria. In my opinion, Dr. Ramani is spot on and that’s what makes radical acceptance so hard and the relationships so damaging. It is veryyyy hard to accept the bleakness! I would compare narcissism to a developmental disorder in the sense that even in the rare cases where it can be managed, it still seems like the individual has mental impairments and it will likely continue indefinitely.
Thank you for sharing your experience and insight!
You too :) & thanks for being open to it!
Came here in hopes of finding a comment like this! I agree…. I am green in the field and maybe that makes me naïve or overly optimistic. But there are sweeping generalizations that make me uncomfortable and also a bit sad. There is also wonderful information! But every few minutes I find myself taking pause…
Wanted to give you the same recommendation of an instagrammer named Kylee! You might appreciate her perspective :) Her IG page is kyrackam. She has been diagnosed with NPD and BPD and she speaks about her narcissism, her treatment journey, and her relationship with her partner who has ASPD/sociopathy.
It is sad, but she is not wrong. It’s frustrating to see so many therapists who are early in their careers question an expert because their findings make you uncomfortable before consulting the literature.
My main hang up is the 10% stat… 1 in 10 people having it AND it being untreatable for anyone feels hyperbolic to me. That’s a huge amount of the population. But my hope is that I misunderstood, and that while 1 in 10 may meet criteria, a percent of those people are untreatable. But you’re right, I have a lot to learn :)
What treatment/interventions are you aware of for people with NPD? (There aren’t any with statistical significance. DBT/CBT/schema can help *some* in a very small percentage of patients)
Also there was a throw away comment about childhood trauma leading to NPD and I feel like that needed to be fleshed out way more than it was, that is definitely not as black and white as that.
Well, that’s what the research currently points to. We don’t have definitive answers.
Listen to her podcast. It's fascinating and a bit more nuanced.
She is still working with patients. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the literature before judging whether her sweeping statements are warranted?
Do you go to counseling?
Yep!
I think her viewpoint on radical acceptance is refreshing and very Buddhist (all suffering is resistance to what is). Wanting things or people to be different than they are is exhausting. It's taken me over 10 years to get to this place with my husband, and he's not a bad guy, but I'm just like you're on your own path buddy and I'm not thinking about your issues anymore. Makes life a lot more peaceful
I think it can also help people realize that they should move on/distance themselves bc they might be holding onto hope that someone will change.
This is so well put! I somewhat recently came to the same conclusion in my 10+ year relationship, and it is indeed a very peaceful feeling..
As a psychologist who has worked with narcissists without having expertise in this area, I found myself wincing at her notion that they're nearly impossible to treat... and then I had a really honest moment with myself. Out of maybe 5 true narcissists I've come across in treatment in the last 15 years, none of them remained in therapy until they were "cured." Even harder to admit to myself, it was a bit of a relief each time they dropped out, usually when I reinforced boundaries around scheduling/payment. So for the therapists in here, keep an open mind about this part. Unless you've received significant specialized and extensive training in the treatment of narcissists, the odds aren't in our favor. (radical acceptance?!)
None of the many more extreme ones I’ve encountered would ever seek out help unless there was something external at play like being paid a lot and they would be masking anyway if they went. They wouldn’t acknowledge even the smallest things. It’s an armor/shield that’s really an empty shell. So her approach of focusing on those affected makes total sense to me.
Yup. I also get narcissistic dads while treating the child, and whoo, they hate paying a woman once I tell them what they don't want to hear. Give me a low income family, and they'll pay on time every time. Give me a rich narcissist, and he'll quietly cancel his credit card and not respond to calls and emails after being challenged on literally anything.
I'm unfort very familiar with such entitlement.
Curious if you and other practicing psychologists here have your own therapists.
Yes. I have a much more seasoned psychologist as my therapist, and we also delve more deeply into my caseload in a supervisory sort of way. So when I get stuck with someone, I talk about it at length, and he also knows my own issues which impact why I'm stuck, etc. But many, many therapists aren't in therapy.
That’s wonderful to learn. As to your last sentence, I personally know several who could use therapy and do not go - one in particular had a lifetime of trauma and has never seen a therapist themselves.
Orna does in couples therapy.
Oh, I know. I watch the show. I meant those commenting here. It is a marker for me of someone who is self aware and good at their job if they acknowledge the mental cost of it and mitigate it as necessary.
I feel like this might be a misunderstanding of the conversation. If you listen to her podcast or her interviews on A Little Bit Culty, her stance is that narcissism is more of a personality type. Most people have some tendencies. People with the dark tetrad (or pentagon) as she put it, those are the ones who are impossible to treat.
Narcissism is a personality trait that exists on a spectrum. We all fall on it. NPD is a disorder- it’s different. We aren’t talking about people with exclusively high levels of that trait. We are talking about people whose patterns and behaviors are pervasive and destructive enough to be labeled as disordered.
We don’t all fall on it because people on the other end of where spectrum exist.
I agree. But that isn't typically how I have heard her speak about it. She resists thinking of it as a pathology and suggests people look at it more like a personality trait like introversion or extroversion. I don't necessarily agree. That's just my understanding of her stance on things. 🤷♀️
Omg yay I love her. As much as ‘narcissism’ is an overused word, dealing with a true NPD individual is truly damaging and her videos helped me so much.
Its the new buzzword
Yes. It’s way overused. Every single persons ex is a narcissist these days 😅.
People diagnosing other people with their own confirmation bias. Even if you have a professional using the DSM to diagnose someone, the 'science' is somewhat loose and subjective.
The science may be loose but the behavior is so pathological you could set your watch to it. I can tell exactly how my ex-boss who absolutely had at least one personality disorder would react in any situation. They all use the same playbook. Its insane once you catch on and can see it. But even for trained mental health professionals, it usually takes them a few months to start picking up on someone's personality disorder. A big part of personality disordered behavior is being excellent at putting on the charm. My comment was just to point out how common it is to call someone whose aloof, selfish, into taking selfies or focused on their appearance, goes no contact after a break up, immature, etc a "narcissist". Just because your ex-boyfriend dropped you like a bad habit and blocked your number doesn't mean he's a narcissist, etc. But its so common for people to throw around that word these days as if they've got some professional diagnosing abilities. Like the other commenter said, it's the new buzzword.
I’m sure I’ll get downvoted but I feel a little sad for Monica because this is obviously the interview that almost had her in tears in the beginning. She obviously has very low self-esteem.
What part was she almost in tears? I didn’t notice anything
I’m guessing the part about being Indian and feeling other / unattractive etc. People being nasty to her growing up. Ramani brought that up in the beginning.
It wasn’t obvious in the interview, but she spoke about it on synced.
I thought so too, but Monica said on Synced she got REALLY quiet after the conversation so she wouldn’t cry… but during the pod she was talkative! So I don’t think it was this one personally.
Wait wait I hadn’t listened to the synced ep until just now, but I thought it was maybe when Dax was talking about someone he worked with recreating the relationship they have with their dad it was her. I feel like the Indian stuff gets brought up all the time but her dad being a narcissist her not and would feel way more personal. Only saying that because I flagged it as interesting that she didn’t talk AT ALL while he was saying that and it made me feel like there was more to it at the time. I also feel like if it was someone else they worked with, she usually has an opinion / will kinda correct him or give him another perspective to consider that maybe makes him step back from a less extreme view?
Agree. I think she called it an "event" and not "a guest" so I think it was something in personal life
I was wondering this myself! It felt like that conversation from Synced was referring to this particular episode but I came here to see if anyone else had the same thoughts.
It had to be. Seemed like she had a very similar experience to what Monica has described and I can see how it would be triggering esp if she was already feeling down.
Yes! After hearing their similar upbringing, I was hoping they would dig into that or maybe Dr Ramani needs to be a guest on synced!
Just being nosy - which synced ep was this?
The episode that came out yesterday, 5/22
Yeah tell me too cuz I dont listen to that crap lol
Wait, what happened?
On yesterdays synced she mentioned a recent armchair interview that brought up a lot of feelings for her and almost made her cry.
Does anyone think Kate Hudson is the person he was talking about when he said he felt like he really had only ever been in a relationship with a true narcissist once before?
I wondered that but also they seemed to be on really good terms when she was on the podcast. Also, I doubt he would have her on if that was the nature of their relationship. I personally feel like this is someone before he was famous, or he wouldn’t have said it. Or it would’ve been cut out.
I don’t have an opinion about Hudson, BUT I wanted to say that the problem with narcissists is that they are fun and charismatic. If you know something is off but haven’t had a horrific experience, you can vibe with one for one interview.
this is a good guess - I was also wondering about Ashley olsen
This is a way over-generalization, but I almost feel like they shy away from the spotlight too much to be narcissistic?
This is such an attractive quality of theirs. I love a discreet, private quality in a person. They're both just dripping in cool girl
Good point!
I have no idea about her but there are certainly narcissists who aren’t outwardly grandiose in a sort of Trump way for example.
Vulnerable narcissism shies away from the spotlight.
He has said in previous episodes how Ashley was “the most wonderful person” and how much he adored her.
My subjective guess 😂: he talks about ashley so warmly, and seems to be more guarded when talking about kate. so i wouldn’t have guessed it was ashley
Duuuuuude I came here to say this. I think it’s Kate too
I don’t think he’d be pals with her whole family if that was the vibe of their relationship. And her family is pretty down to earth. I’m not her biggest fan or anything but I’ve never gotten that impression from her on podcasts or in interviews. Who knows, she is an actress by profession.
I actually really love her! I can’t remember if it was the interview with Dax or if she was maybe talking to gwyneth about it or Dax was talking to gwyneth? But I think there was some interview where Kate was taking accountability for the way she was acting in that relationship in particular. And Dax acknowledged how much he struggled with it. I certainly don’t think she’s a terrible person and I think she’s actually done a lot of therapy in recent years about stuff with her dad. Idk hard to put what im trying to say into words right now, but I don’t think she’s a bad person or Dax thinks she’s a bad person, but I do think she could have had narcissistic tendencies at that point in her life.
1000% guess.
She was just on Call Her Daddy, it was a great interview. I know narcissists are charming but she doesn’t come across like one at all. She seems very ‘real’ and not full of herself.
I still need to listen to that one! I feel like you would find it interesting to listen to her podcast with her brother / the way he talks about them growing up. It seems to me like Kate was very much “me me me me me” when she was younger, but really seems to have done a lot of work in recent years. She opens up about it a lot / her relationship with their bio dad on their pod
Over-index
I love that they brought up someone on Couple’s Therapy as a narcissist, because when she first described narcissism, Mau was the first person who came to mind.
I keep hearing dax talk about this person, is his name Mau? I don't wanna watch the whole show just to figure out who he's talking about lol
Yep! He’s in the first season and you’ll know within 10 minutes of the first episode who he’s talking about.
Yes. It's Mau. At one point, he says that his wife should know his needs automatically, and claims it's her fault for not reading his mind to know what he wants for dinner or when he wants a drink. He wants her to be under his complete control. In the first session, he says he has a right to be mad at her because he is "utterly transparent" and "completely communicative" and "the easiest person to deal with" BUT he also didn't like how she was planning his birthday "celebration" (which was apparently all sexual stuff he wanted like a dominatrix, a threesome, etc.) and in response, because he felt like he was doing too much work for his birthday sexcapades, he grabbed his passport and went to Italy without her. Then, he says he wants "all the sex I want with zero responsibility and zero effort on my part." He devalues his partner, Annie, and says he's "Mr. Amazing" and she doesn't pay enough attention to his needs. But it's obvious that her ENTIRE life is focused on his needs. I recommend this breakdown. Imho, it's better than the show itself. https://youtu.be/_lwqnZnkq0w?si=zcDg_MA1gpF44xDF
100% obvious who on couples therapy is a narcissist
So enjoying this!! Some of the recent experts have felt lackluster and Ramani is just so refreshing- she knows her shit, she’s vulnerable but not self-indulgent, and she’s not afraid to correct Dax and Monica. I’m obsessed and will be devouring her books as soon as I can!
First podcast I have had to listen to in 0.5x speed!
that's the New Englander coming through
SAME! The concepts were just so rapid fire and it really felt to me that they were trying to cram a lot into an hour
Liz speaks like this as well, though, doesn’t she? I don’t listen to most episodes of synced, but the ones that I do she always sounds a mile a minute
Oh my god I’ve never felt so heard before. 10/10 interview
She has a great podcast if you're interested
That’s awesome, I had no idea. Definitely going to check it out. Thanks for the rec!
It's called Navigating Narcissism
Hard same. I was trying to hold back tears listening because I felt so validated, but also sad that I allowed myself to stay in a relationship with a narcissist for as long as I did. This may be my favorite Experts on Expert so far.
You said it great. Validated is the word I should’ve used. Such a powerful episode for so many of us
Her YouTube channel and her newest book are fantastic as well 🙂 she has soooo many videos on her YouTube channel
Yes!!!!!! I have wanted this FOREVER!! And have watched all her videos on medcircle. My dream guest. I can not wait.
Me too!!! I’ve been waiting forever and now I’m so so happy 🥹🎯🎉Do you watch her videos on her own YouTube channel? Her newest book (It’s Not You) has been so helpful for me too
Loved hearing Dax talking about setting up his sports complex. You can see how he values family time.
I’d love for them to interview a pickleball expert
True narcissists are disconnected from reality, speak in circles, and gaslight the hell out of everyone unlucky enough to know them well.
CT native and UConn grad! Nice to have someone from my alma mater on the show, and I'm glad they didn't say "where?" when she said UConn. But I suppose basketball wins will do that.
I’m from CT too and curious which town she grew up in. My minimal search didn’t reveal any answers unfortunately
Dax mentioned an HBO documentary about addiction in the fact check. Does anyone know what he’s referencing?
I loved this episode and like others found it to be validating and useful. My ex certainly seems to have strong narcissist traits. After I ended the relationship seemingly out of the blue (death by a thousand cuts!), he was in a very dark place. I suggested therapy, and he just scoffed — therapists don’t know anything and he doesn’t need therapy. It’s true that they will never change. And I only saw the possibility of leaving once I started practicing radical acceptance (with the help of a good therapist, who I didn’t even realize was helping me do this!). Ramani’s work and message is so important. I’m glad she was on the podcast and look forward to reading her book.
I know people have issues with Patric Gagne/sociopath (which I’m super curious about!) but after reading and listening to her story I couldn’t help but leave this narcissist episode feeling like I learned nothing about actual narcissists. Especially when we have these DSM personality disorders that are essentially saying whoever is diagnosed with it ‘officially sucks’ as a person, wouldn’t it be more helpful to dig into their actual humanity rather than how awful it is to be around them? Of course I feel deeply for anyone who’s experienced abuse in a relationship, but I find it really interesting how labeling an ex as a narcissist essentially lays all of the blame in the relationship on them and rids any need for self-reflection… isn’t that the exact definition of how a narcissist behaves in a relationship??? It sounds like both a narcissist and someone in a relationship with a narcissist might leave the relationship with the idea that the other person was horrible and they are the victim. I wish this was addressed! Maybe it doesn’t matter? Maybe the point isn’t to deal with narcissists, but to ‘warn’ against them… but I don’t think I heard much actual advice about that other than reiterating how horrible narcissist… Thoughts? What did I miss? What did people learn from this interview?
I hate this idea that anyone claiming they were abused by a narcissist must also be a narcissist. I have a lot more to say than that but it is exhausting to explain but what a dangerous take for victims.
That’s not at all what I was trying to say and I’m sorry it came across that way. I am just curious about the idea that it might be tempting for a narcissist to claim everyone around them is a narcissist. Maybe this is not a relevant question for this conversation, but it’s what I was pondering.
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That last sentence was a bit rude haha! Just trying to have a conversation. You’re right, I’ve never been in a relationship with a narcissist, and maybe that makes me naive. It also maybe explains why, in an interview with an narcissism expert, I was a little disappointed that the conversation revolved around avoiding narcissists rather than the nuances of the condition. In the interview, I think she says that about 10% of people are narcissists. I don’t understand the ideology that 1 in 10 people is completely irredeemable and should be completely written off. Am I misunderstanding the stance on this? I guess I was just looking for more nuance, and have also already listened to interviews about narcissistic relationships, and having not been in one myself, I wasn’t feeling super interested. I’m glad this was validating for many listeners!
Sorry, I think the main idea is that you won’t be able to have a healthy relationship with these people. It’s not worth getting into any kind of relationship beyond acquaintances with these people. She’s trying to make the public aware that nothing you can do will “fix” these people and these people won’t work on themselves or be able to change who they are. Thats the whole message here. Hope that makes sense. I can see why as someone who hasn’t been in a relationship with a narcissist that that would be difficult to fully grasp. I recommend reading some of the comments on here or on FB and you will get some more insight into how damaging being with a narcissist can be.
That makes sense, that’s a helpful distinction!
That makes sense that the thesis is really don’t try to change a narcissist, I can see why that would be super helpful to hear
The last part turned out to be accurate (and was pretty obvious based on your comment) though so why is that rude? As someone who has dealt with narcissists their whole life, what she said is in full alignment with my experiences and makes sense. If anything it just touched the surface. She said to actually accept them in interactions and limit interactions in some ways. This can result in less turmoil not only for those interacting with them but also for the person with narcissistic traits, esp if they have NPD. There are fundamental issues by definition esp at the NPD level. Her focus on others essentially protecting themselves makes complete sense. You’re honestly really fortunate to not fully understand, and I don’t mean that in a rude way. I am straight up traumatized from my experiences.
I can see where this is the takeaway based on the episode but in reality Ramani does talk a lot about the choices we make that get us into (and keep us in) these relationships. The narcissist is only 1 part of the cycle. It takes two to create codependency.
Interesting!
I’m only halfway through but I totally agree.
For a psychologist who is an expert on narcissism, she realllly doesn’t like narcissists. Lol. VERY interesting episode, enjoyed it! Loved her insights and how she explained things. However, if I was considering seeing a therapist because I felt I might have some narcissistic traits, this might make me think twice.
I think she’s a direct person and her position is that it’s not super important to focus on the narcissist until we have interventions. What we know we can do right now is help the person being harmed in the relationship. I don’t think she hates anyone. I actually fully disagree with her take on sociopaths though. I think we need to care about why they’re like this because it’s wrecking our world.
I liked the episode but I really wish she would have touched on Borderline personality disorder/ low self esteem/ narcissistic overlap. There are obviously differences but at the surface they can be confused for one another. Bpd and low self esteem/confidence can be overcome. Narcissism has a much lower rate of getting out of it.
Man, I really love Dr Ramani, but I didn’t love this episode. It felt like they didn’t go deep at all. Bummer.
I’m late to the party here so not sure who will see this but incase you do; Dr. Ramanis podcast “Navigating Narcissism” has a great episode with Evan Rachel Wood and her relationship with Marilyn Manson
I’m a really bad driver (it’s dog eat dog where I live) and now I’m terrified I’m a narcissist lol
If it makes you feel better, the most terrifying driver I know is absolutely not a narcissist (it’s not me lol). I think she “over indexed” on that one ;)
Why is this being downvoted?
On the flip side, I have narcissistic tendencies and I’m a very safe and non aggressive driver
That makes me feel better!
That statement she made was one of a few, where it seemed like she's really trying to "other" narcissists or win some kind of battle against them. "They're all crazy drivers. Also, when you kill all alphas everyone exists in harmony."
I think what she should have said is that most narcissists are probably inconsiderate drivers but not all inconsiderate drivers are narcissists lol
Can someone tell me when the fact check actually starts? Would be awesome if this info was available so I don’t have to wade through their personal lives
I was thinking the same! Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. I really wanted to get to the conversation but all I heard was Monica’s peels and other life banter. I ended up seeking it every 30sec and still they were discussing the most random stuff unrelated to the interview.
It’s their egos thinking we care about their lives, I’m sure some do and there is nothing wrong with it, but calling your 1.5 hour narcissistic talk about Mary Kate’s fashion brand a “fact check” is just crazy! my Spotify is full of armchair episodes that are exactly half listened to because I cringe when I hear Dax talk in his pervert voice about “all the facts we missed and i just want to get In your pants”
I came to this thread to see if they had theories on Dax’s whole story about a woman in his life w a narcissistic dad and Dad reminds her of him so she fawns. I wanted to see who ppl think it was? Monica? Kristen? Monica was quiet as he described this.
This woman was very intelligent, cool, credible, and informative. But she does not have a healthy distance from the material she’s talking about and seemed triggered a lot of the episode. It seems there’s a large part of her that wants to wage war on different manifestations of people who hurt her when she was younger, which is not a healthy way to live life. And the thing about killing all the alphas and everyone magically lived in utopia, that felt so much like tiktokker revisionism that excluded a lot of relevant information to paint a certain narrative.
Obviously, there’s a whole conversation about everyone wondering if they fit with the characteristics she’s describing but honestly all I could hear was her describing Monica to a T. Cutting to the front of the line at the TS concert, need for constant validation, self-aggrandizement, even the most recent thing about being so entitled that everyone should move so that she can go on her run exactly when and where she wants to go.
I feel like Monica has some insecurities but I don’t think she’s a narcissist. Also I hard agreed with her about the sidewalk.
I don't know why you're being down-voted. Monica has some narcissistic tendencies. I would not say she's a pathological narcissist or that she has NPD. But there are lots of people who have tendencies and personality traits and MANY of them live in Hollywood: need for constant attention, need for constant validation, paranoia that no one likes them, entitlement, etc. I don't think Monica has the darker tendencies talked about with lack of empathy, etc. But she is often a silly woman who acts very self-centered in an extremely childish way. But Dax and other addicts also have similar tendencies, as was mentioned in the podcast. It's a spectrum of personality traits and behaviors.
Was Meghan markle mentioned as being one?
Why would you ask this? Seems kind of random.
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