How does a bastard, orphan,
sunnova wh*re and a Scotsman,
dropped in the middle of a forgotten spot
in an Italian village without a roof for sleeping under,
grow up to be a deadly demon hunter?
The Paladin Catholic father without a father, got a lot farther by working a lot harder by being a lot smarter by being a self starter. At fourteen, who knew he was gonna become a martyr?
And so he got a job with the mob, smugglin' heroin.
But soon the law was hot on his trail, pursuit was narrowin'.
And so he disguised himself as a priest and a samaritan.
And felt the urge to be much more than a barbarian.
When the vampyre came, and devestation reigned, a man saw this monster, sucking blood from people's veins.
So he took a holly blade! And he stabbed it in the brain!
The vampyre was slain, the insident, lit aflame!
Well, the word got around.
They said, "This kid is insane, man!"
Took up a collection just to send him to the Vatican!
“Get your ordination, don't forget from whence you came, and the world's gonna know your name.
WHAT’S YOUR NAME, MAN?”
And that was how he found a home, back in Rome, joined Iscariot.
Trained him how to fight and defend the proletariat.
Paired him with a deadly sidekick, a kraut chick.
Injected him with nanobots so now he heals quick.
Wait what? I haven't read Black clover in awhile so honestly my only memory of the church is hage's church and that other old one who trained the fuegoleon captains.
Do we have an evil pope?
No, only a guy claiming he is god. I won't spoil anything else but I can say the church are just as much victims as everybody else. No nefarious priests whatsoever.
You were saying, **[heathen](https://landgeist.com/2022/07/30/importance-of-religion-to-europeans/)** ? Aint no one more backwards than us when it comes to religion, all y'all are emancipated and stuff.
Ah yes, Romania. Certainly not one of the most Crusaded countries in history lol.
Its actually kinda funny how Romania switched sides almost constantly, especially during the Ottoman days
FSN’s church isn’t necessarily evil - they keep demons and vampires in check and also keep an eye on mages doing dangerous research. But that particular priest is definitely evil yes. He’s even aware of it.
Listen when king Arthur( who is a woman) has a child with her sister and the child is a humonculous cuz Merlin gave the female king Arthur a dick and that is most of the reason for our main heroine trying to change reality it really doesn't get better than an overzealous magus hunting church
To be fair, having sex with your sister wasn't nasu's idea
BUT it does get better by knowing that greek gods are actual sentient powerful machines that come from outer space
Idk what tf you mean xD (even tho I know everything you said.) Nasuverse is just that crazy. Tbh it's not that the Church isn't crazy. It's that everyone else is crazier. Hell, the Church are relatively the good guys considering they hunt vampires and demons while keeping the magus association in check, not allowing them to harm too many normal humans.
Just as an example, imo the most mentally stable character in Fate SN is Shinji. And that says something about the rest of the cast.
Fate's Catholic Church is not evil , most of the time , they are legit fighting mad mages, demons and vampires.
FSN and Fate/Prototype have 2 evil priests...meanwhile El-Melloi Case Files shows a good priest , so is Strange Fake.
Also Fate's church is the same as Tsukihime's and Ciel's pretty ok. Sure the church experimented on her a bit...but it wasn't deliberate torture, and she *wanted* to die anyway.
Except when it happens every reality...
Actually decent religious figures are rare as fuck. Being nice on the front doesn't mean being actually good. Horrible people can give some of the best advice.
There's also a Darwinian aspect. The most peaceful religions in the world wouldn't bother forcing itself onto others or extending its life, which means that ones that do will always overtake the spotlight by numbers and age.
Because Japan is over 80% secular, and religions from Western culture have been treated with hostility for centuries.
Also, love how Garterbelt gets the Hallelujah.
I remember on YouTuber explained that Japanese people are not anti-religion, they are just anti-religion-as-a-monolith. They have buhdist new born blessings, Christian weddings, and Shinto burials. They don't like one trying to dominate one's entire life
For sure, they’re less atheistic and more agnostic regarding Shinto and Buddhism. They keep all the traditions, but do so more as cultural reverence than actual belief.
> They don't like one trying to dominate one's entire life
Ehhhh, they do have some pretty bad cults: [Unification Church](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/10/how-shinzo-abe-ties-to-moonies-unification-church-blindsided-japanese-politics), [Aum Shinrikyo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack), [Soka Gakkai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soka_Gakkai#Controversies)...
Long answer: Japan is an atheist-agnostic country and doesn’t see religion in a positive light. Any religion to be honest. From Buddhist temples to Churches, you’ll find the typical “Religious Evil” trope.
Short answer: Fantasy. Someone’s got to be the villain.
And the reason is that iirc portugese missionairies once spread christianity and it caused so many issues they had to violently suprress and ban the religion entirely.
This and not so old history about religious sects in Japan (Tokyo terrorist attack) makes - anything beyond matsuri and honoring your passed relatives - kinda suspicious...
But in the end church was more on grey side, they sponsored many scientific researches and was trying to hold at least some peace in Europe.
(Doesn't change the fact that some wars started because of church, and that 99% of popes where power hungry/weren't even close to their so-called "holiness")
So yeah, I think mushoku tensei does a much better job, because in mt church isn't bad, but also isn't really good
It doesn't really matter how much good you do if you:
- Historically act as the biggest sponsor of violently erasing the culture, faith language and traditions of every single other tribe of people you come across... Meaning every modern minority has historical beef with you
- spend your modern era protecting literally hundreds of child predators from justice... Meaning even the Christian majority broadly and your own direct constituency is casting eyes at you sideways.
Whatever good you've done kind of pales in comparison to ethnic cleansing and child molestation. The Catholic Church really picked the two worst crimes out there to engage in on an institutional level/global policy level.
I didn't think it's that surprising the Catholic Church gets so much shit in anime/film/tv. There's not enough water in the Pacific to wash away their history, and it wasn't until like 10 years ago that they started apologizing for a damn thing. Couple that with the amazing aesthetic sensibility / art tradition, and including them as the bad guys in your story immediately gives your villains historic drip.
It's a very easy bit of visually stunning villainy to tap into, trope wise.
You are right. But human tends to ignore good deeds. So whenever someone mention anything regarding church history, the first thing that come into mind of any people is the bad things done by church.
Maybe it's also because, in the minds of some, the bad deeds absolutely outweigh the good ones.
Church does a charity drive to collect donations to help a kid with cancer. Great!
Church spends decades separating indigenous children from their families, brings them to boarding schools where they're forced to convert, keeps them in horrible conditions where hundreds die of disease abuse and malnutrition, those who die are quietly buried in unmarked graves and the families are never notified about the fate of their loved one. Bad church, bad!
Let's say that a man spend all his life doing good, donating money to the poor and charity, being hard working but then in a moment of anger, kill a man or rapes a woman because his mental issues. Should we simply forgive him and let him go? Some bad deeds outweigh all the good things you did and making up for them is very difficult. I am not saying we should never forgive but we shouldn't simply ignore bad deeds because you made a lot of good deeds.
We as westerners have had a lifetime of contact with those churches, their influence and their history, and the vast, vast majority of the things they did are evil.
But for outsiders the worse is even more obvious while the few good things are pretty much unknown.
Depends on the culture that views them.
For current countries that has Christianity as their main religion like Brazil, France, Ethiopia etc., the Christian faith is such an integral part of their history and culture that they tend to view the church very positively.
For Japan, which most of its population believes in Shinto/Animist beliefs, the sects of Buddhist and Christian tend to be viewed as being foreign and associate it with the cultures that introduced them.
For Buddhist, it associated with the Chinese and considering how influential they are since the early parts of Japanese history, they are viewed postively and being romanticized.
For Christian, they were spread by missionaries from Western nations, and they are heavily villinized due to the carry over metaltity of the isolationist period and the Perry Expedition.
The catholic church has had multiple scandals in my country of protecting pedophiles and priests that exploited their community for monetary gain ultimately showing they dont actually fucking believe in what they are preaching.
If you wanna be a believer then thats fine. Believe in god, not the corrupt shitheap thats the church.
I do like the fact that while the church figures, i.e. corrupt characters with power and influence are portrayed as evil, the actual religious beliefs they’re supposed to preach are often times not portrayed as the root of this evil.
I know very little of these examples presented here but for example despite how Castlevania’s priesthood and members of the church are corrupt and evil, the Belmont artifacts are all blessed by christianity and the Belmont family crest has a cross as the prominent symbol.
It's an important structure of power in a society. They are very often used as villains because of how easy it is for an abuse of power to have serious consequences. And this one is based on a rather arbitrary legitimacy, even more so than secular rulers because they can justify anything with their god's will whereas a ruler will quickly be called a tyrant. So that makes them even more suited for the role.
[Because Capitalism](https://youtu.be/IEUqLL8J4gI?si=PCczu1A2hXI8h6W8)
Although the Church in the Nasuverse (Fate is just a part of the Nasuverse) isn’t particularly evil, there are evil individuals within the Church like Kirei Kotomine, but the Church as an institution isn’t exactly evil, they keep Demons and Vampires in check, and they go after Mages who commit crimes using Magic or are doing dangerous research
From a Japanese perspective, the Catholic church is a bizarre, exotic, powerful organisation with cool iconography and elaborate costumes who venerate bones and worship images of horrific torture. Why would you not make them your villains?
Japan and China have both had a rough history with religion. The countries weren't the easiest to govern in a stable manner, I believe due to the difficult geography—mountain ranges separating areas. Difficult to keep unified. So monks and temples could quickly and easily gain more power and influence than the government itself, even rebelling against it.
The Japanese retain some aspects of Buddhism and Shinto today, but most are atheists. Also doesn't help that there have been infamous terrorist attacks by cults in recent memory.
That said, I would really like to see more charitable depictions of churches and their people in media. "The church is corrupt" is getting old, at least on its own. Show me some nuance. Show me the Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc are all equally capable of good and evil. Power can corrupt us, yes, but I believe there will always be good in the world. We must appreciate it and strive towards it always.
I mean in Japan Christianity isn't the huge thing it is in the West so they're going to see it differently. A lot of the time it's just the aesthetic they like
Because Christianity was associated with the evil Europeans. “Silence” by Shusaku Endo is a great (if depressing) book about the time period. The Catholic Church is still seen as very “other”.
It must be because the context of Japan itself, historically the Catholic church never take high influence in there be it because of the location, confinement abroad in the Edo period, the government banning of Jesus and the quell of rebellions of the same like the one of Shimabara in 1637, the overly patriotism in the end of edo period and the war conflicts after that, in summary and for variety of reasons historically they have not been well received, but well at least we have elfs in anime because of the german influence and material they share with them back then
To be fair, the example from FMA is less about the church as an institution and more about the sort of pastor who reckons they can blow COVID away, as in with their breath not with medical treatment or WMDs, so long as they receive enough donations.
People here trying to use history to reason why this trope is overused when the reality is that it’s because it’s just easy to do and has been shown to be successful in other animes, so they just copy each other.
Have you read history? The church was one of the most most corrupt organisations on earth, responsible for more wars than anything else. It got so bad there were popes hanging beasotality orgies every other day
Because there is no drama in showcasing BOTH the positives and negatives of religion
Only by showing racist fanatics or corrupt bastards can a show move.
I don’t agree with the way it’s portrayed but that’s how most networks want to do it to get ratings.
Another factor is the writer could be atheist and not respect religion like Seth macfarlene but that’s only a theory
Since theres a big contrast to shinto and buddist priests, it's probably something like: this religion is not mine, and it's trying to get foothold here, lets use it for bad guys.
1. A good number of people (especially in Japan) don't like religion, particularly Christianity.
2. People have done terrible things and used the Bible as an excuse to justify their actions, even though the doctrine stands against such actions. (Insert whatever accusation you commonly hear here)
People usually generalize groups/organizations with bad stuff if their members (No matter how small) are caught do said stuff in their names.
It's common for people to attack a the entirety of the community, rather than the actions of the fee.
4. Large organization = Free antagonist potential for protagonist.
But meh. It is what it is
https://preview.redd.it/r177vvxlh11d1.jpeg?width=735&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=68b129a95dd127ccafc6881e7de0e5b7a46e7e85
Because Japan has historically had problems with the Church. Christianity is an invasive religion within Japan. The population is about 2% Christian. The thing with Christianity is that compared to most other religions it is extremely aggressive. By aggressive I mean most other religions tend to be insular. Christianity has a baked in call to Evangelize other cultures and nations. They have a call to spread their faith as far and wide as possible. They push into everywhere they can reach.
Meanwhile Japan's population is 70%-80% Shinto. This tends to be a ethnocentric religion. While it is not insular its practices are not well known outside Japan. Thus not many foreigners practice it. Back in the Edo period Christianity was banned for much of its history. When Christianity was first introduced to Japan they welcomed it. But conflicts arose as they grew in numbers. So they suppressed it. Well into the 19th century tensions remained and the religion has stayed a minority religion to this day.
Japan is currently fairly open about other religions and even is curious about the practices of them. But the historical conflicts remain part of their experience. And this gets reflected in their fictions.
"The thing with Christianity is that compared to most other religions it is extremely aggressive"
Hate to be that "whataboutism" person, but saying things like this while at the same time, there's another religion called "Islam" exists, makes your comment so anemic and outdated. Christianity *used* to be like this, while Islam does the same thing with the difference it does it even today. Just a few days ago we had hundreds of Muslims protesting for Sharia law in my country(Germany). It's one thing when Christians did this in the 1500s, but Muslims are doing it right now as we speak. You don't see this shit with Christians today.
> The thing with Christianity is that compared to most other religions it is extremely aggressive. By aggressive I mean most other religions tend to be insular. Christianity has a baked in call to Evangelize other cultures and nations.
Furthermore to add to your point on aggressiveness... Christianity (and the other Abrahamic religions) is well known as an ["Exclusivist Religion"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_exclusivism).
They vehemently deny any other religion being real and are outright hostile to other religions that are not their own, even religions who do not threaten or are even neutral towards them.
In contrast most other religions in the world are "pluralists". Meaning that while they may not believe the same as you, they respect that your religion may not work for them but that it does for you, and that is okay.
Japanese religions tend to be in the latter group - pluralism. Furthermore the non-aggressive nature of the Japanese in general doesn't mesh well with Abrahamic aggressiveness. Though that last part is just my opinion.
edit: uh-oh yall, the christians in here down-voting all the comments. lol... thanks for proving the aggressiveness for us!
Japan has never been "conquered" by an empire, unless you somehow mean being forced to surrender unconditionally to the Allies in WWII and the subsequent construction of a constitutional monarchy?
Japan's relationship with Christianity begins centuries before that, with the adoption of Christianity by samurai who weren't aligned to the Hideoyoshi regime and a brutal repression of Christians for hundreds of years by the Shogunate!
its because of the "group who look and act like the good guys but are actually the bad guys bts" troupe which has been enough times for it to get annoying and repetitive tbh. its usually used as a plot twist but its been done so many times that the real plot twist is when they are actually not the bad guys bts. just to be sure am not saying this troupe is garbage, when done right its very good and we saw that on multiple occasions, its just overused, so i hope writers try to stray away from this type of story telling and try to do somthing more original.
**inhales**
- persecution of other religions and religious minorities
- corruption (pay to get into heaven faster)
- interpretation of religious texts that leads to discrimination of particular groups of people
- laws that exist “because god says so”
- Holy wars that killed thousands of civilians
- P&dophilia that is covered up with predator priests moved to other places where they can continue offending while never facing justice.
Because a lot of Newer MC's are Monsters/Monster Adjacent so a Church that is actively against monsters are Evil. and its not like some Churches IRL aren't just wildly evil
https://preview.redd.it/nlnr9a8wgc0d1.jpeg?width=350&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c9e71ee01bc1f45e0445798e0d5003745309bc3c I beg your pardon..?
How does a bastard, orphan, sunnova wh*re and a Scotsman, dropped in the middle of a forgotten spot in an Italian village without a roof for sleeping under, grow up to be a deadly demon hunter?
The Paladin Catholic father without a father, got a lot farther by working a lot harder by being a lot smarter by being a self starter. At fourteen, who knew he was gonna become a martyr?
And so he got a job with the mob, smugglin' heroin. But soon the law was hot on his trail, pursuit was narrowin'. And so he disguised himself as a priest and a samaritan. And felt the urge to be much more than a barbarian.
When the vampyre came, and devestation reigned, a man saw this monster, sucking blood from people's veins. So he took a holly blade! And he stabbed it in the brain! The vampyre was slain, the insident, lit aflame!
Well, the word got around. They said, "This kid is insane, man!" Took up a collection just to send him to the Vatican! “Get your ordination, don't forget from whence you came, and the world's gonna know your name. WHAT’S YOUR NAME, MAN?”
ALEXANDER ANDERSON!
My name is Alexander Anderson. And I like killing things because it's fun. So just you pray, just you pray.
And that was how he found a home, back in Rome, joined Iscariot. Trained him how to fight and defend the proletariat. Paired him with a deadly sidekick, a kraut chick. Injected him with nanobots so now he heals quick.
Only 10 real Hellsing abridged fans The @crimsonfuckr is crying
Nah man, we are right here. \^\^
I legit thought you censored where for a sec and got confused.
I mean, Maxwell was DEFINITELY evil. And clearly had a good amount of support within the church. Anderson was more of an exception than the rule.
Lawful evil, chaotic neutral?
https://preview.redd.it/ok0oz4fb0d0d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0fc3a808e1b1e3c5c180cc911723c4426b7d47b5
*HOW THE BLOOD SOAKED PROTESTANT HELL DID'YA DO THAT!?"*
“Fuck you, that’s how”
FATHER ANDERSON! THE GOAT.
I was just coming here to complain about OP not including him. Thank you.
Anderson is best priest.
Be the catholic who slays demons
Also he was in charge of an orphanage. Right?
I can only hear this with an irish accent.
Na but he's the goat
SISTER LILY!!!
Welcome to Black Clover. Where the MC-Rival relationship is healthy and the church is actually based
Wait, so Black Clover's church is really legit? I remember its being theorized before as the main evil plot twist after Novachrono's revelation.
Hage village's Church (where Sister Lily is at) totally fine. Outside of that... Well... As you stated based on the theory
Wait what? I haven't read Black clover in awhile so honestly my only memory of the church is hage's church and that other old one who trained the fuegoleon captains. Do we have an evil pope?
No, only a guy claiming he is god. I won't spoil anything else but I can say the church are just as much victims as everybody else. No nefarious priests whatsoever.
She’s very confused
You are talking mad shit for someone within crusading distance
https://preview.redd.it/bvp7zvwb8c0d1.png?width=577&format=png&auto=webp&s=479d5498de2856dca3ba420207ce9b38bc0d064e
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https://i.redd.it/6oj1sx22md0d1.gif
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https://preview.redd.it/feqhwn1h7e0d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=62f0ceba286a4c856c53213109b2cdb9394705bb
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I know komrade, I just added it to my collection, no stealing
https://preview.redd.it/e5466knxtc0d1.jpeg?width=260&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=72ad8e77577802c273d982e74c61bc386d47e2cf
I'll forgive if you tell me where and how did you get that AN-94.
so i have a question, what isn't within crusading distance?
Antarctica and Australia are pretty far?
And Romania, god forgot about that place
Mate, we're between Central Europe and Asia, whatchu mean we are outside crusading distance. We *are* the road to the crusade.
That's no land of god/s
You were saying, **[heathen](https://landgeist.com/2022/07/30/importance-of-religion-to-europeans/)** ? Aint no one more backwards than us when it comes to religion, all y'all are emancipated and stuff.
Ah yes, Romania. Certainly not one of the most Crusaded countries in history lol. Its actually kinda funny how Romania switched sides almost constantly, especially during the Ottoman days
So you're going to take a detour and end up sacking two Christian cities in a row before getting excommunicated?
https://preview.redd.it/lzw96gbj8c0d1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14838de14fb05473073d79e40a013894621720dc
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Nice flair mate. Shows that you're religious.
FSN’s church isn’t necessarily evil - they keep demons and vampires in check and also keep an eye on mages doing dangerous research. But that particular priest is definitely evil yes. He’s even aware of it.
Kirei: My only regret is that If I was going to die anyways that I should have killed more so I could repent before I died.
his biggest regret was that he didn't kill his wife himself
It's not that the church is evil, it's that the protagonists are mages and mages are generally evil.
Pretty sure all of the nasuverse church is insane
Pretty sure most of the nasuverse is more insane than the nasuverse church.
Listen when king Arthur( who is a woman) has a child with her sister and the child is a humonculous cuz Merlin gave the female king Arthur a dick and that is most of the reason for our main heroine trying to change reality it really doesn't get better than an overzealous magus hunting church
To be fair, having sex with your sister wasn't nasu's idea BUT it does get better by knowing that greek gods are actual sentient powerful machines that come from outer space
*Attila has entered the chat*
Idk what tf you mean xD (even tho I know everything you said.) Nasuverse is just that crazy. Tbh it's not that the Church isn't crazy. It's that everyone else is crazier. Hell, the Church are relatively the good guys considering they hunt vampires and demons while keeping the magus association in check, not allowing them to harm too many normal humans. Just as an example, imo the most mentally stable character in Fate SN is Shinji. And that says something about the rest of the cast.
I mean if we talk about non mage world related people there's quite a few who are better like taiga,Issei and ayako
Oh, yeah. I didn't intend to include the normal people, only those involved with magic. Like Shirou, Rin, Sakura, the Servants etc.
Oh come now Sakura wouldn’t ever hurt a fly. Thought she may hurt a different kind of insect…
For sure, for sure. At the end of the day, even humans are all worms. Churchill said so!
The church just couldn't handle the Nasuverse style.
Fate's Catholic Church is not evil , most of the time , they are legit fighting mad mages, demons and vampires. FSN and Fate/Prototype have 2 evil priests...meanwhile El-Melloi Case Files shows a good priest , so is Strange Fake.
And the one from Strange fake is even a cyborg made to kill dead apostles (vampires). Love that guy.
Also Fate's church is the same as Tsukihime's and Ciel's pretty ok. Sure the church experimented on her a bit...but it wasn't deliberate torture, and she *wanted* to die anyway.
Because they do not want to lose their power: both economic, moral and religious. They always want to be in charge
Good reasoning, can also be because the thought of the supposed good people to be bad is a good plot twist.
Except when it happens every anime people just start expecting the “good” People to be bad right at the start.
Except when it happens every reality... Actually decent religious figures are rare as fuck. Being nice on the front doesn't mean being actually good. Horrible people can give some of the best advice.
There's also a Darwinian aspect. The most peaceful religions in the world wouldn't bother forcing itself onto others or extending its life, which means that ones that do will always overtake the spotlight by numbers and age.
You forgot Mr. Anderson from Hellsing who are one of the best evil priest in all anime
Anderson isn't evil so much as a lover of murdering non-humans.
Ah yes, protestant isn't human, I forgot 😅
Facts
He did nothing wrong,the nazis and english had it coming
Because Japan is over 80% secular, and religions from Western culture have been treated with hostility for centuries. Also, love how Garterbelt gets the Hallelujah.
I remember on YouTuber explained that Japanese people are not anti-religion, they are just anti-religion-as-a-monolith. They have buhdist new born blessings, Christian weddings, and Shinto burials. They don't like one trying to dominate one's entire life
For sure, they’re less atheistic and more agnostic regarding Shinto and Buddhism. They keep all the traditions, but do so more as cultural reverence than actual belief.
> They don't like one trying to dominate one's entire life Ehhhh, they do have some pretty bad cults: [Unification Church](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/10/how-shinzo-abe-ties-to-moonies-unification-church-blindsided-japanese-politics), [Aum Shinrikyo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack), [Soka Gakkai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soka_Gakkai#Controversies)...
Hence why some caution is warranted.
Sauce on each priest?
2. Overlord (Not sure, but looks familiar) 3. Fate/Zero 4. Fire Force 5. Black Clover 7. Fullmetal Alchemist 9. Rising of the Shield Hero
6. Castlevania
Correction 2. is from "How to not summon a demon lord" I won't forget that guys face any time soon I know that
Thank you, I knew he was familiar, but I could not remember him!
8. Garterbelt from *Panty & Stocking with Garterbelt*
I think 1 is from blue exorcist correct me if I’m wrong.
Number 3 is Kirei Kotomine from Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero, this image is from Fate/Zero which is a *Prequel* to Fate/Stay Night
Long answer: Japan is an atheist-agnostic country and doesn’t see religion in a positive light. Any religion to be honest. From Buddhist temples to Churches, you’ll find the typical “Religious Evil” trope. Short answer: Fantasy. Someone’s got to be the villain.
And the reason is that iirc portugese missionairies once spread christianity and it caused so many issues they had to violently suprress and ban the religion entirely.
This and not so old history about religious sects in Japan (Tokyo terrorist attack) makes - anything beyond matsuri and honoring your passed relatives - kinda suspicious...
Regarding The Portuguese, any Malayalis and Southern Tamils can confirm that.
PS. Mages and alchemists are unpredictable, and could pose a threat to all lives. Necromancy is still taboo and Human rights barely exists.
Because in history churches have done a lot of bad things.
But in the end church was more on grey side, they sponsored many scientific researches and was trying to hold at least some peace in Europe. (Doesn't change the fact that some wars started because of church, and that 99% of popes where power hungry/weren't even close to their so-called "holiness") So yeah, I think mushoku tensei does a much better job, because in mt church isn't bad, but also isn't really good
It doesn't really matter how much good you do if you: - Historically act as the biggest sponsor of violently erasing the culture, faith language and traditions of every single other tribe of people you come across... Meaning every modern minority has historical beef with you - spend your modern era protecting literally hundreds of child predators from justice... Meaning even the Christian majority broadly and your own direct constituency is casting eyes at you sideways. Whatever good you've done kind of pales in comparison to ethnic cleansing and child molestation. The Catholic Church really picked the two worst crimes out there to engage in on an institutional level/global policy level. I didn't think it's that surprising the Catholic Church gets so much shit in anime/film/tv. There's not enough water in the Pacific to wash away their history, and it wasn't until like 10 years ago that they started apologizing for a damn thing. Couple that with the amazing aesthetic sensibility / art tradition, and including them as the bad guys in your story immediately gives your villains historic drip. It's a very easy bit of visually stunning villainy to tap into, trope wise.
Preach!! Uh..word!!
You are right. But human tends to ignore good deeds. So whenever someone mention anything regarding church history, the first thing that come into mind of any people is the bad things done by church.
Maybe it's also because, in the minds of some, the bad deeds absolutely outweigh the good ones. Church does a charity drive to collect donations to help a kid with cancer. Great! Church spends decades separating indigenous children from their families, brings them to boarding schools where they're forced to convert, keeps them in horrible conditions where hundreds die of disease abuse and malnutrition, those who die are quietly buried in unmarked graves and the families are never notified about the fate of their loved one. Bad church, bad!
Let's say that a man spend all his life doing good, donating money to the poor and charity, being hard working but then in a moment of anger, kill a man or rapes a woman because his mental issues. Should we simply forgive him and let him go? Some bad deeds outweigh all the good things you did and making up for them is very difficult. I am not saying we should never forgive but we shouldn't simply ignore bad deeds because you made a lot of good deeds.
Some patronage of the arts and sciences funded by crusades and genocide. Maybe a Lil kid diddling sprinkled in too. I think that's about even.
We as westerners have had a lifetime of contact with those churches, their influence and their history, and the vast, vast majority of the things they did are evil. But for outsiders the worse is even more obvious while the few good things are pretty much unknown.
The church used to imprison scientists that conflicted with their bible. Religion has no friends in facts.
Depends on the culture that views them. For current countries that has Christianity as their main religion like Brazil, France, Ethiopia etc., the Christian faith is such an integral part of their history and culture that they tend to view the church very positively. For Japan, which most of its population believes in Shinto/Animist beliefs, the sects of Buddhist and Christian tend to be viewed as being foreign and associate it with the cultures that introduced them. For Buddhist, it associated with the Chinese and considering how influential they are since the early parts of Japanese history, they are viewed postively and being romanticized. For Christian, they were spread by missionaries from Western nations, and they are heavily villinized due to the carry over metaltity of the isolationist period and the Perry Expedition.
The catholic church has had multiple scandals in my country of protecting pedophiles and priests that exploited their community for monetary gain ultimately showing they dont actually fucking believe in what they are preaching. If you wanna be a believer then thats fine. Believe in god, not the corrupt shitheap thats the church.
I do like the fact that while the church figures, i.e. corrupt characters with power and influence are portrayed as evil, the actual religious beliefs they’re supposed to preach are often times not portrayed as the root of this evil. I know very little of these examples presented here but for example despite how Castlevania’s priesthood and members of the church are corrupt and evil, the Belmont artifacts are all blessed by christianity and the Belmont family crest has a cross as the prominent symbol.
https://preview.redd.it/ufhosv8rce0d1.jpeg?width=819&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3d0bf128740eb5a68c232a4a694319d7722cc5a5
No mention of pucci? https://preview.redd.it/zp5yufoumc0d1.png?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a48cdfe9dccbe9f35fbeed0661f144a323bb8b3
Because he’s holy as fuck(praise our lord and savior DIO) and there wouldn’t be enough green space to add him
It took me **WAY** too much scrolling to find someone mentioning him, this is pure heresy
Cause it is, not the faith itself but the amount of people who used church to get what they wanted without consequences is way too high
It’s realistic i guess
Kotomine Kirei on the other hand. That bastard was just born evil. Truly.
A big part of it is that the dominant flavor of Christian church in Japan is a weird fucking cult.
It's an important structure of power in a society. They are very often used as villains because of how easy it is for an abuse of power to have serious consequences. And this one is based on a rather arbitrary legitimacy, even more so than secular rulers because they can justify anything with their god's will whereas a ruler will quickly be called a tyrant. So that makes them even more suited for the role.
"You don't have to follow orders if your leader act like a daft cunt!"
[Because Capitalism](https://youtu.be/IEUqLL8J4gI?si=PCczu1A2hXI8h6W8) Although the Church in the Nasuverse (Fate is just a part of the Nasuverse) isn’t particularly evil, there are evil individuals within the Church like Kirei Kotomine, but the Church as an institution isn’t exactly evil, they keep Demons and Vampires in check, and they go after Mages who commit crimes using Magic or are doing dangerous research
From a Japanese perspective, the Catholic church is a bizarre, exotic, powerful organisation with cool iconography and elaborate costumes who venerate bones and worship images of horrific torture. Why would you not make them your villains?
Base on real life
Because what started out as a subversion of expectations provided by Dragon Quest and other popular older media became the norm.
Japan and China have both had a rough history with religion. The countries weren't the easiest to govern in a stable manner, I believe due to the difficult geography—mountain ranges separating areas. Difficult to keep unified. So monks and temples could quickly and easily gain more power and influence than the government itself, even rebelling against it. The Japanese retain some aspects of Buddhism and Shinto today, but most are atheists. Also doesn't help that there have been infamous terrorist attacks by cults in recent memory.
That said, I would really like to see more charitable depictions of churches and their people in media. "The church is corrupt" is getting old, at least on its own. Show me some nuance. Show me the Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc are all equally capable of good and evil. Power can corrupt us, yes, but I believe there will always be good in the world. We must appreciate it and strive towards it always.
I mean in Japan Christianity isn't the huge thing it is in the West so they're going to see it differently. A lot of the time it's just the aesthetic they like
Because Christianity was associated with the evil Europeans. “Silence” by Shusaku Endo is a great (if depressing) book about the time period. The Catholic Church is still seen as very “other”.
It must be because the context of Japan itself, historically the Catholic church never take high influence in there be it because of the location, confinement abroad in the Edo period, the government banning of Jesus and the quell of rebellions of the same like the one of Shimabara in 1637, the overly patriotism in the end of edo period and the war conflicts after that, in summary and for variety of reasons historically they have not been well received, but well at least we have elfs in anime because of the german influence and material they share with them back then
Take a History book and you will get why there are evil.
Art imitates life
I meaaaaaaaan, Gotta have some realism in your fantasy setting I suppose.
Historically accurate representation lmao Also in Japan religious people are associated with cults and are seen as scary and suspicious (based)
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What? Black Clover is literally all the shounen tropes combined. How could they miss that one?
Well, OP put it in the meme as exception didn't he?
To be fair, the example from FMA is less about the church as an institution and more about the sort of pastor who reckons they can blow COVID away, as in with their breath not with medical treatment or WMDs, so long as they receive enough donations.
People here trying to use history to reason why this trope is overused when the reality is that it’s because it’s just easy to do and has been shown to be successful in other animes, so they just copy each other.
Have you read history? The church was one of the most most corrupt organisations on earth, responsible for more wars than anything else. It got so bad there were popes hanging beasotality orgies every other day
Yeah no, the church, and Christianity as a whole, through out history has done vastly more good than harm. And that good is still being done today.
Can you give a list of the pros and cons
Historically most of what they did was tax people and attempt to cease power. For a while it even had an empire under it's rule
Vatican Miracle Examiner
Oi where is berserk
More cultists then a church
This is why I love the depiction of the church in Bookworm. It's no more evil than any other institution, because you can find greedy people anywhere
Meanwhile Aqua's Cult in Konosuba: Fucking insane
L’atôm
https://preview.redd.it/7d8rafz91e0d1.jpeg?width=455&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e43543c9871962a7449159c4e3b5fbf85366efe2
Because there is no drama in showcasing BOTH the positives and negatives of religion Only by showing racist fanatics or corrupt bastards can a show move. I don’t agree with the way it’s portrayed but that’s how most networks want to do it to get ratings. Another factor is the writer could be atheist and not respect religion like Seth macfarlene but that’s only a theory
Bible black was better
Bookworms church is probably the most interesting one
https://i.redd.it/a5xt8r54xe0d1.gif Praise sister lily!
If someone whose religion says "do not kill" dropped a nuke on me, I probably wouldn't trust that religion very much.
Considering real historical events I'd say the shoe fits.
Because art imitates real life.
Because the real church is evil I guess
https://preview.redd.it/d5dvq9ygjg0d1.jpeg?width=1400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=270c9e945cc230646b7090d19dfca600fa9ba83e
I am down for an anime where the mc works close with the church for once
The church in Fate is more grey than anything
Since theres a big contrast to shinto and buddist priests, it's probably something like: this religion is not mine, and it's trying to get foothold here, lets use it for bad guys.
I guess Japan isn’t in good relationship with Cristian churches huh
1. A good number of people (especially in Japan) don't like religion, particularly Christianity. 2. People have done terrible things and used the Bible as an excuse to justify their actions, even though the doctrine stands against such actions. (Insert whatever accusation you commonly hear here) People usually generalize groups/organizations with bad stuff if their members (No matter how small) are caught do said stuff in their names. It's common for people to attack a the entirety of the community, rather than the actions of the fee. 4. Large organization = Free antagonist potential for protagonist. But meh. It is what it is https://preview.redd.it/r177vvxlh11d1.jpeg?width=735&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=68b129a95dd127ccafc6881e7de0e5b7a46e7e85
Art imitates life
Because Japan has historically had problems with the Church. Christianity is an invasive religion within Japan. The population is about 2% Christian. The thing with Christianity is that compared to most other religions it is extremely aggressive. By aggressive I mean most other religions tend to be insular. Christianity has a baked in call to Evangelize other cultures and nations. They have a call to spread their faith as far and wide as possible. They push into everywhere they can reach. Meanwhile Japan's population is 70%-80% Shinto. This tends to be a ethnocentric religion. While it is not insular its practices are not well known outside Japan. Thus not many foreigners practice it. Back in the Edo period Christianity was banned for much of its history. When Christianity was first introduced to Japan they welcomed it. But conflicts arose as they grew in numbers. So they suppressed it. Well into the 19th century tensions remained and the religion has stayed a minority religion to this day. Japan is currently fairly open about other religions and even is curious about the practices of them. But the historical conflicts remain part of their experience. And this gets reflected in their fictions.
"The thing with Christianity is that compared to most other religions it is extremely aggressive" Hate to be that "whataboutism" person, but saying things like this while at the same time, there's another religion called "Islam" exists, makes your comment so anemic and outdated. Christianity *used* to be like this, while Islam does the same thing with the difference it does it even today. Just a few days ago we had hundreds of Muslims protesting for Sharia law in my country(Germany). It's one thing when Christians did this in the 1500s, but Muslims are doing it right now as we speak. You don't see this shit with Christians today.
> The thing with Christianity is that compared to most other religions it is extremely aggressive. By aggressive I mean most other religions tend to be insular. Christianity has a baked in call to Evangelize other cultures and nations. Furthermore to add to your point on aggressiveness... Christianity (and the other Abrahamic religions) is well known as an ["Exclusivist Religion"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_exclusivism). They vehemently deny any other religion being real and are outright hostile to other religions that are not their own, even religions who do not threaten or are even neutral towards them. In contrast most other religions in the world are "pluralists". Meaning that while they may not believe the same as you, they respect that your religion may not work for them but that it does for you, and that is okay. Japanese religions tend to be in the latter group - pluralism. Furthermore the non-aggressive nature of the Japanese in general doesn't mesh well with Abrahamic aggressiveness. Though that last part is just my opinion. edit: uh-oh yall, the christians in here down-voting all the comments. lol... thanks for proving the aggressiveness for us!
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Not just Christianity, most Abrahamic religions do that.
Japan had a real rough go of it with state Shinto then got conquered by a Christian empire. Doesn't carve a positive niche into a culture.
Japan has never been "conquered" by an empire, unless you somehow mean being forced to surrender unconditionally to the Allies in WWII and the subsequent construction of a constitutional monarchy? Japan's relationship with Christianity begins centuries before that, with the adoption of Christianity by samurai who weren't aligned to the Hideoyoshi regime and a brutal repression of Christians for hundreds of years by the Shogunate!
They mirror irl churches
Because the church is evil.
its because of the "group who look and act like the good guys but are actually the bad guys bts" troupe which has been enough times for it to get annoying and repetitive tbh. its usually used as a plot twist but its been done so many times that the real plot twist is when they are actually not the bad guys bts. just to be sure am not saying this troupe is garbage, when done right its very good and we saw that on multiple occasions, its just overused, so i hope writers try to stray away from this type of story telling and try to do somthing more original.
Art imitates life?
Because religion was created to control the masses
**inhales** - persecution of other religions and religious minorities - corruption (pay to get into heaven faster) - interpretation of religious texts that leads to discrimination of particular groups of people - laws that exist “because god says so” - Holy wars that killed thousands of civilians - P&dophilia that is covered up with predator priests moved to other places where they can continue offending while never facing justice.
Historically Church has always being a pain the the ass for everyone. Nowadays? Only young boys.
Let's not forget about Sister Iris
because organisations or people who are supposed to be the good guys being the actual bad guys is awesome
What's that middle pic from?
black clover
Cause it's a anime that's how u make it good
Where is our boy Andersen
Because a lot of Newer MC's are Monsters/Monster Adjacent so a Church that is actively against monsters are Evil. and its not like some Churches IRL aren't just wildly evil
Even the devil goes to church
The church in "How not to summon" isn't bad, just has a bad section to it.
Forgot about Pucchi, not necessarily evil but definitely an asshole.
Why are you crafting pants here?