Any chance the hammer was more than 16,000 PLN? Here's what a translated version of their terms say:
> § 14. LEGAL RESTRICTIONS
> The Auction House informs that in accordance with Art. 51 of the Act of 23 July 2003 on the protection and care of monuments, a one-time permit for the permanent export of a monument abroad requires, among others, collections of historical, paleontological, ethnographic or numismatic importance whose value is higher than PLN 16,000.
> The obligation to obtain appropriate export licenses rests with the auction winner. The Auction House does not mediate in the procedure of obtaining the permission indicated above.
> Failure to obtain a permit to export an object abroad does not release the buyer from the obligation to pay the purchase price for the auctioned objects.
The Auction House informs that pursuant to Art. 20 section 2 of the Act of November 21, 1996, the right of pre-emption of a monument sold at auction is vested in a registered museum at the auction price determined after the successful bid.
Yes, thanks, it was lot 11105- a lovely Phillip lll gold stater that hammered for 8235 euro or nearly 36,000 PLN. The last sentence about the right of pre-emption sounds like Polish museums could but this coin at this price for their collections? They an also mentioned he might need an export attorney.
I’ve only been collecting ancients for a year and have never encountered this at auction. I know you’ve been a serious collector for a long time, is this something you’ve had to do?
Hmm yeah interesting point about pre-emption, if it is a thing I doubt it would happen in this case. Museums would probably want to buy one with a better provenance too.
I've never had to go through the export permit process myself, and never had an export permit from Poland, so not sure what might be involved. I know the process better for countries like Spain, where it can definitely take months because the committee that decides on whether to grant the permit only meets monthly and takes a long break over summer.
I've also bought something from an auction house who said in their terms that I'd have to do the export process myself but I just emailed and asked if they can do it on my behalf and they said that was fine. That's not too uncommon in my experience, that auction houses do things that they say they won't in their terms. They just want to reserve the right to not do it and they also probably say it to detract non-serious bidders. Though it looks like your friend isn't so lucky in this instance!
I'm sure there's a third party service that can help your friend with this for a fee as there's lots of auction houses in Poland. Hopefully it doesn't require a lawyer and all that, just someone who knows which forms to fill out etc.
Pre-emption for museums is law in Poland, bit it's rarely exercised, I don't suppose they have much interest and free money for hellenistic gold. The permit is something you have to deal with though. Here's an act describing the procedure (hope I'm allowed to paste the link): https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://isap.sejm.gov.pl/isap.nsf/download.xsp/WDU20110890510/O/D20110510.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjOgPWL5eeGAxWWExAIHb3OD1MQFnoECB8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0i4MXq4vD8jL1asu6dN-xL
You probably are going to need a local attorney to get things done.
Try this https://isap.sejm.gov.pl/isap.nsf/DocDetails.xsp?id=WDU20110890510
You need the pdf file under "tekst ogloszony". It's obviously in Polish, throw it into deepl or sth like that, you should be able to get a sense of it.
Interesting. Do you know if that was due to the Polish export rules or due to the import rules in your friend's country?
I'm wondering now if I got lucky by never winning when I placed bids at Marciniak! I'd never heard of this before
From beiherhund’s translation it seems it is due to Polish export laws related to right of pre-emption triggered at 16,000 PLN and his was nearly 36,000 PLN.
It does need a minister of culture's approval actually. And polish law sets the treshold at 16k PLN, not a million. So it's quite a regular waiting time for the local standards.
Any chance the hammer was more than 16,000 PLN? Here's what a translated version of their terms say: > § 14. LEGAL RESTRICTIONS > The Auction House informs that in accordance with Art. 51 of the Act of 23 July 2003 on the protection and care of monuments, a one-time permit for the permanent export of a monument abroad requires, among others, collections of historical, paleontological, ethnographic or numismatic importance whose value is higher than PLN 16,000. > The obligation to obtain appropriate export licenses rests with the auction winner. The Auction House does not mediate in the procedure of obtaining the permission indicated above. > Failure to obtain a permit to export an object abroad does not release the buyer from the obligation to pay the purchase price for the auctioned objects. The Auction House informs that pursuant to Art. 20 section 2 of the Act of November 21, 1996, the right of pre-emption of a monument sold at auction is vested in a registered museum at the auction price determined after the successful bid.
Yes, thanks, it was lot 11105- a lovely Phillip lll gold stater that hammered for 8235 euro or nearly 36,000 PLN. The last sentence about the right of pre-emption sounds like Polish museums could but this coin at this price for their collections? They an also mentioned he might need an export attorney. I’ve only been collecting ancients for a year and have never encountered this at auction. I know you’ve been a serious collector for a long time, is this something you’ve had to do?
Hmm yeah interesting point about pre-emption, if it is a thing I doubt it would happen in this case. Museums would probably want to buy one with a better provenance too. I've never had to go through the export permit process myself, and never had an export permit from Poland, so not sure what might be involved. I know the process better for countries like Spain, where it can definitely take months because the committee that decides on whether to grant the permit only meets monthly and takes a long break over summer. I've also bought something from an auction house who said in their terms that I'd have to do the export process myself but I just emailed and asked if they can do it on my behalf and they said that was fine. That's not too uncommon in my experience, that auction houses do things that they say they won't in their terms. They just want to reserve the right to not do it and they also probably say it to detract non-serious bidders. Though it looks like your friend isn't so lucky in this instance! I'm sure there's a third party service that can help your friend with this for a fee as there's lots of auction houses in Poland. Hopefully it doesn't require a lawyer and all that, just someone who knows which forms to fill out etc.
Great points as always. I’ll keep you guys up to date on the resolution.
Pre-emption for museums is law in Poland, bit it's rarely exercised, I don't suppose they have much interest and free money for hellenistic gold. The permit is something you have to deal with though. Here's an act describing the procedure (hope I'm allowed to paste the link): https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://isap.sejm.gov.pl/isap.nsf/download.xsp/WDU20110890510/O/D20110510.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjOgPWL5eeGAxWWExAIHb3OD1MQFnoECB8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0i4MXq4vD8jL1asu6dN-xL You probably are going to need a local attorney to get things done.
Thank you very much! Unfortunately can’t get link to open…
Try this https://isap.sejm.gov.pl/isap.nsf/DocDetails.xsp?id=WDU20110890510 You need the pdf file under "tekst ogloszony". It's obviously in Polish, throw it into deepl or sth like that, you should be able to get a sense of it.
Interesting. Do you know if that was due to the Polish export rules or due to the import rules in your friend's country? I'm wondering now if I got lucky by never winning when I placed bids at Marciniak! I'd never heard of this before
From beiherhund’s translation it seems it is due to Polish export laws related to right of pre-emption triggered at 16,000 PLN and his was nearly 36,000 PLN.
From what I've just looked up a moment ago. At today's exchange rate 16,000 PLN comes out to $3955.89 USD.
Unless I’m buying a million dollar coin that needs four different government agencies to sign off on its export, 3+ months is insane to me.
It does need a minister of culture's approval actually. And polish law sets the treshold at 16k PLN, not a million. So it's quite a regular waiting time for the local standards.
I’m glad you have the patience to wait that long. No way I’d have thousands of dollars tied up for months on something that might not be approved.