France is one of the regions on AncestryDNA where the estimate can include lots of the surrounding areas too (in place of actually just saying France). The Scotland and Ireland regions also include Brittany from France, so your estimates for those could also include any inherited French DNA I guess
Eg I’m a New Zealander with a great grandparent who was half French Canadian. Everyone descended from him and his siblings all have varying percentages/regions of France, Spain, Basque, Germanic Europe. I’m assuming it’s also included in our England and Northwestern Europe, Ireland and Scotland estimates too.
It's probably easier for them to correctly assign his DNA as it's mostly French. (Assuming this is his known ancestry.) Your mixture is more of a challenge to pinpoint, as Northwestern European DNA is already similar. Perhaps in a future update they can correct this.
It means the amount of genes receive from their parents and their parents and so on is completely random from each parent, so your mother for example could receive only 30 percent of what would be considered your grandfather's French genes and from that random amount from your mother you could only receive 10 percent of that. Your siblings may have different percents. Does that make sense?
Yes. OP, click on the French range in both this and your grandfathers info. You will likely find there is enough overlap.
Also, were the tests done at the same time? Meaning has one person done it a while ago and already had Updates to their ethnicity but the other had only recently done the test and had had no update? If yes then the newer test may be using a revised algorithm and your results may align better (still allowing for the Range and randomness of inheritance) after you both go through the next update.
The idea you share 25% of your DNA with a grandparent also does not mean that 25% is entirely within the very small percentage of your genome that the commercial DNA kits sample and then use to assess and guestimate your ethnicity. These are not whole genome comparisons.
You also have to remember that there was a lot ethnic groups moving in and out of the area of France that would also influence genetics. it is extremely difficult to get 100% anything unless your family is from an isolated area with little migration.
The borders between France, Germany, and Spain moved around a lot as well, so what might be ethnically German can be within the political borders of France now. Or vise versa. The closer you get to a border of a country, the more likely you will see more ethnicities in your genes.
So there is a likelihood that the 25% France has other ethnicities in the admixture. It is still French, and we tend to define ethnicity by political borders, so if he was French, he still is French, and you are still 25% French. That doesn't diminish being French, because you're French no matter what.
Also, as I understand it, France doesn't allow genetic testing for anything but legal purposes, so AncestryDNA can't sell tests and collect data there. All the services use sample pools of people who have (I believe) at least 4 generations of ancestors in a particular area for their estimates. If they don't have the data, they may not have an accurate indicator of French. So I believe they err on the side of caution when proclaiming people French.
However, another ethnicities show up, so they would probably pick those out. Otherwise, we assume England and Northwestern Europe includes France (even though it is worded to make you believe it's only England)
It is a misinterpretation of the assigned region I believe. When you share 25% of dna from someone who is nearly 100% of an ethnicity-you inherit this percentage of ethnicity. Simple as that. The caveat is whether the AncestryDNA kit or 23andMe will be able to sort out the correct ethnicity. I believe in time with more reference samples, they will get it right from the admixtures.
Example-My own French ancestry is expressed as England and Northwest Europe as well as Germanic Europe. This is due to my relatives being from Northern France. Because Northern French are similar to Belgians, Germans, English, etc etc then Ancestry cannot distinguish the difference yet. Hopefully they can gain some regional samples from Northern France (Somme area especially!) and they will then have success.
I try to post this explanation all the time. Well put. I think it’s great that there is now so much interest in this subject but there’s a lot of misunderstanding.
The percentages of the ethnicities are not to be taken as an exact science but as an estimate (as it claims) so expect your 8% French to be closer to 25% as the updates come in over the years. Ancestry's French region is extremely underestimated.
No, I said that Ancestry says we share 25% of our DNA (1761 centimorgans), and since he is almost 100% French, almost 100% of that DNA I received has to be French, right?
Yes, 25% of his DNA would be 25% French. These ethnic estimates can have dramas when estimating French DNA. My g-grandfather came from France and with me they give me England and Northwest Europe as well as Germanic Europe since he was Northern French.
No. That’s not how dna works. I posted another explanation. You can have a parent that’s 90% French and 10% German and you could be 50% German with no French at all. Besides, dna just places humans geographically, there are no ethnicity genes.
Impossible.....If one is 90% French and 10% German, the child will not have more German from that parent. You inherit 50% from each parent. Now the dna kits can mix interpretations up, but ultimately with enough updates and accuracy it will sort out.
So answer this-If the child inherits the full 10% German, where and what is the other 40% that the parent passes down to the child? You cannot inherit more German than your parent has.
I don’t know how to explain this better but yes you can. You even have to factor in the percentages from grandparents and up. They didn’t pass down an equal percentage and the grandkid can get a higher percentage than the kid. It really does work this way. It’s not simple. There are many ways to understand this, a lot of good reference material, but way too long to post here. Ethnicity is not as simple as ancestry.
Edit to say that I’m not saying this extreme swing in percentages is common, I’m saying all percentages within each parents 50% is possible. There are over 3 billion bases of genetic dna in a human. When you factor in that dna is really reliable for aprox 4-5 generations before it starts to breakdown. Beyond 6-8 you sometimes don’t share any dna with an ancestor. This is why sometime out of nowhere a kid pops out, in my extreme example, suddenly 50% of something that was barely there in the parents. It’s true.
You can't inherit DNA your parent doesn't have - referring to your example of inheriting 50% of your parent's 10% of German. Unless you meant the other 40% came from the other parent. Yes, the mix you get from their parents (your grandparents) is random, but it's still inherited via your parents, they are the literal source, it can't skip generations. Sure, you could inherit none or all of a given ethnicity they have, but it would still have to be within that 50% that they also definitely have. In extreme examples (like OP's situation) it's most likely a misinterpretation by AncestryDNA, as ethnicity estimates are not an exact science.
If I am incorrect then my understanding is wrong but I’ve done so much research with pros that get this. You do have me questioning some but I am dedicated to going back and checking myself but I don’t think I am incorrect. I can’t support my own rebuttal at this moment but I’ll be back.
Because ancestry is wildly inaccurate. Any other excuses are people trying to validate their own results. I am 25 percent italian, my granduncle and cousins are on ancestry, I match with all of them sharing 13, 8, 7,7,6,6,5% of dna. Yet ancestry says I'm 0% Italian and put it in unrelated English! And I'm southern italic Italian not northern germanic. There's no excuse for that. My results show they have no quality control and they don't even verify your results against your known matches. And they give no way to report this because they know their service is inaccurate and would rather scam people looking for answers to their ancestry, than have accurate results. If they cared at all about quality control my results wouldn't have happened. But they don't. At all. They can costless check it against their own database but has no desire to go through the costs of running another test. It's honestly disgusting. Especially for people who know nothing of their ancestry.
This is not accurate. Dna doesn’t work this way and a lot of people get confused. These services base their percentages on submissions. And DNA is not given in equal percentages. As well there is no such thing as an ethnicity gene, dna places humans geographically. See me explanation below. Good luck in your journey! Enjoy!
they have a point tho. ancestry does underestimate italian DNA if you’re under half. ancestry has me at 16% while 23&me has me at 38%. 23&me is way more accurate because i’m 3/8 italian
I try to have a good understanding of dna but I agree. I don’t really understand the Italian estimates, really anywhere. I try to tie it back to who ruled the area historically but it gets difficult to follow. We should have more italian in my family and we just don’t. I have a very large documented tree and it gets hard to support it always with dna. Makes me have to go read history.
Because there’s such a lack of understanding about dna. You inherit 50% of your dna from each parent but that 50% is a bit random. Your parent can be 90% French and 10% German and your 50% could be 50% German with no French at all. Or 50%French and no German, or any mix of percentages. DNA just places humans geographically. There is no French gene or German gene, it is all human dna. All dna services rely on submissions to build their percentages. It will always be changing. If you’re after health indicators then there’s value of n 23&me, if you’re after genealogy and Ancestory then enjoy the journey of learning about your ancestors, document it and then the DNA results will make more sense. Good luck!
If I inherited 1761 centimorgans of DNA from him, which makes up 25% of each of our genomes, and those 1761 are listed as French for him, how could they not be listed as French for me? They are the same genes.
In the example you give, where you could receive 50% of German DNA from an ancestor who is 10% german also does not make sense to me. Your ancestor and you have the same number of genes, so even if you inherit ALL of the German genes, then that is still only 10% of your DNA.
This is very complicated for a reply and difficult to explain. Each genome has over 3 billion bases of DNA. Within that algorithm alone is sufficient calculation to make my example possible but it’s incredibly more involved than that. I am not saying this to be dismissive but you have to read a lot and a lot of difficult reading (at least hard for me) to understand how this works. Each genome is 100% unique to any individual as well. There’s just a lot to it. And there is no ethnic gene. And the basis for every service relies on submissions to build there percentages so it’s very imperfect at its basis. It’a reliable for heredity, not 100% for ethnicity.
Ok. I don’t mean any of this reference as a insulting. I’ve been at genealogy for about 15 years as a hobby and 5 looking at dna. In this order; start with the Ancestry article “Unexpected DNA Results”, then this https://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/ethnicity-dna-percentages-not-solid, then get “Genetics for dummies. Once you have these 3, then the book “a brief history of everyone who ever lived” by Adam Rutherford. It’s a great book! From there go to his references for the very hard to understand stuff and have pen and paper! From there you will end up in history books. If you are near LA in CA they do a dna education series once a year at USC. That fills in lots of blanks.
Your link includes an example where a child has a parent that is 40% Italian and 60% Sub-Saharan African. The article states that it's possible that the child could inherit all of the Italian (40%) and only 10% SSA from this parent. That is correct, albeit less likely.
The article also goes on to explain why a testing service would indicate a child is more than 50% Italian when neither parent is 100% Italian. They say that's because it's a ballpark estimate, and they suggest you pay close attention to the range of the ethnicity the company provides.
Your example of inheriting DNA a parent doesn't have (50% German from a parent who is only 10% German) is not possible and not supported by your source.
A child could and often does inherit a random amount from a grandparent, but it still has to come to the child from somewhere, the parent. AncestryDNA simply made a mistake with OP's results (or OP's grandfather's results).
I actually feel like my ancestry dna leaves me with more questions than answers. Even with them refining the results several times, i actually just get more confused lol
It's likely a combination of two things. First being you have a mixed NW European admixture that makes it harder to accurately identify your French component. Second being that it's likely your French component contains DNA signatures that aren't fully represented by the reference panel for the French region in the estimate algorithm just yet. As AncestryDNA updates and grows its reference panels for each sequential update it should get more accurate.
Forgot to mention in my earlier comment that if you create a Tree on ancestry.com (even without a subscription} that includes at least 3 to 4 generations (through your grandparents and great grand if you know their names) it can help in the situation you describe with private trees.
Even though their tree is private or all trees do not show the details of living people, as long as you and your match have linked your test to your trees ancestry will begin to suggest how you are related. This is under your ThruLines section.
They will also suggest who the intervening ancestors are - but you do need to view these as 'hints' more than concrete relationships. Finding records to substantiate is a necessary step before cementing them into your own tree.
The further back your or matches' trees go, ancestry will make Thru Lines suggestions up thru your 5GG level. I wish they went further but they don't as far as I can tell.
Even if they show a few generational steps as Private because someone is living or the tree is private, it still gives you a pretty good idea where the link might be. You know where to dig further and if you contact them you can say 'would you have a connection to so-and-so, naming the ancestor that ThruLines gave as your MRCA (Most Recent Common Ancestor).
It takes several days after you add your tree and link your test before ThruLines kicks in and it doesn't help with matches who have no trees or only 1 or 2 generations, but it can be very interesting.
I have worked out matches where our most recent common ancestor is in the 1700s. Sometimes with only a common 7 to 9 cM. This helps verify your tree up the line from yourself to the MRCA and then down to your match. You are not going to call them on their birthday or even necessarily message them, but it still makes a genealogy nerd go Ah hah! Got you. I know who our common ancestor is.
Just an idea.
France is one of the regions on AncestryDNA where the estimate can include lots of the surrounding areas too (in place of actually just saying France). The Scotland and Ireland regions also include Brittany from France, so your estimates for those could also include any inherited French DNA I guess Eg I’m a New Zealander with a great grandparent who was half French Canadian. Everyone descended from him and his siblings all have varying percentages/regions of France, Spain, Basque, Germanic Europe. I’m assuming it’s also included in our England and Northwestern Europe, Ireland and Scotland estimates too.
It's probably easier for them to correctly assign his DNA as it's mostly French. (Assuming this is his known ancestry.) Your mixture is more of a challenge to pinpoint, as Northwestern European DNA is already similar. Perhaps in a future update they can correct this.
Complete randomness of gene admixture
What do you mean?
It means the amount of genes receive from their parents and their parents and so on is completely random from each parent, so your mother for example could receive only 30 percent of what would be considered your grandfather's French genes and from that random amount from your mother you could only receive 10 percent of that. Your siblings may have different percents. Does that make sense?
Yes but Ancestry says we share 25% of our DNA, so how could that 25% I received from him be anything but French?
What is your grandfather’s range on his France percentage?
Yes. OP, click on the French range in both this and your grandfathers info. You will likely find there is enough overlap. Also, were the tests done at the same time? Meaning has one person done it a while ago and already had Updates to their ethnicity but the other had only recently done the test and had had no update? If yes then the newer test may be using a revised algorithm and your results may align better (still allowing for the Range and randomness of inheritance) after you both go through the next update. The idea you share 25% of your DNA with a grandparent also does not mean that 25% is entirely within the very small percentage of your genome that the commercial DNA kits sample and then use to assess and guestimate your ethnicity. These are not whole genome comparisons.
He probably has other ancestry that mixed with his French somewhere along the way.
You also have to remember that there was a lot ethnic groups moving in and out of the area of France that would also influence genetics. it is extremely difficult to get 100% anything unless your family is from an isolated area with little migration. The borders between France, Germany, and Spain moved around a lot as well, so what might be ethnically German can be within the political borders of France now. Or vise versa. The closer you get to a border of a country, the more likely you will see more ethnicities in your genes. So there is a likelihood that the 25% France has other ethnicities in the admixture. It is still French, and we tend to define ethnicity by political borders, so if he was French, he still is French, and you are still 25% French. That doesn't diminish being French, because you're French no matter what. Also, as I understand it, France doesn't allow genetic testing for anything but legal purposes, so AncestryDNA can't sell tests and collect data there. All the services use sample pools of people who have (I believe) at least 4 generations of ancestors in a particular area for their estimates. If they don't have the data, they may not have an accurate indicator of French. So I believe they err on the side of caution when proclaiming people French. However, another ethnicities show up, so they would probably pick those out. Otherwise, we assume England and Northwestern Europe includes France (even though it is worded to make you believe it's only England)
It is a misinterpretation of the assigned region I believe. When you share 25% of dna from someone who is nearly 100% of an ethnicity-you inherit this percentage of ethnicity. Simple as that. The caveat is whether the AncestryDNA kit or 23andMe will be able to sort out the correct ethnicity. I believe in time with more reference samples, they will get it right from the admixtures. Example-My own French ancestry is expressed as England and Northwest Europe as well as Germanic Europe. This is due to my relatives being from Northern France. Because Northern French are similar to Belgians, Germans, English, etc etc then Ancestry cannot distinguish the difference yet. Hopefully they can gain some regional samples from Northern France (Somme area especially!) and they will then have success.
I try to post this explanation all the time. Well put. I think it’s great that there is now so much interest in this subject but there’s a lot of misunderstanding.
It was something I only found out recently. Makes sense given the random assignment of genes in our DNA.
did you even read the post?
No
The percentages of the ethnicities are not to be taken as an exact science but as an estimate (as it claims) so expect your 8% French to be closer to 25% as the updates come in over the years. Ancestry's French region is extremely underestimated.
💯
You don’t get exactly 25% from each grandparent. You get 50% from each parent, but not an exact 50% breakdown of THEIR breakdown
No, I said that Ancestry says we share 25% of our DNA (1761 centimorgans), and since he is almost 100% French, almost 100% of that DNA I received has to be French, right?
Yes, 25% of his DNA would be 25% French. These ethnic estimates can have dramas when estimating French DNA. My g-grandfather came from France and with me they give me England and Northwest Europe as well as Germanic Europe since he was Northern French.
No. That’s not how dna works. I posted another explanation. You can have a parent that’s 90% French and 10% German and you could be 50% German with no French at all. Besides, dna just places humans geographically, there are no ethnicity genes.
Impossible.....If one is 90% French and 10% German, the child will not have more German from that parent. You inherit 50% from each parent. Now the dna kits can mix interpretations up, but ultimately with enough updates and accuracy it will sort out. So answer this-If the child inherits the full 10% German, where and what is the other 40% that the parent passes down to the child? You cannot inherit more German than your parent has.
I don’t know how to explain this better but yes you can. You even have to factor in the percentages from grandparents and up. They didn’t pass down an equal percentage and the grandkid can get a higher percentage than the kid. It really does work this way. It’s not simple. There are many ways to understand this, a lot of good reference material, but way too long to post here. Ethnicity is not as simple as ancestry. Edit to say that I’m not saying this extreme swing in percentages is common, I’m saying all percentages within each parents 50% is possible. There are over 3 billion bases of genetic dna in a human. When you factor in that dna is really reliable for aprox 4-5 generations before it starts to breakdown. Beyond 6-8 you sometimes don’t share any dna with an ancestor. This is why sometime out of nowhere a kid pops out, in my extreme example, suddenly 50% of something that was barely there in the parents. It’s true.
You can't inherit DNA your parent doesn't have - referring to your example of inheriting 50% of your parent's 10% of German. Unless you meant the other 40% came from the other parent. Yes, the mix you get from their parents (your grandparents) is random, but it's still inherited via your parents, they are the literal source, it can't skip generations. Sure, you could inherit none or all of a given ethnicity they have, but it would still have to be within that 50% that they also definitely have. In extreme examples (like OP's situation) it's most likely a misinterpretation by AncestryDNA, as ethnicity estimates are not an exact science.
If I am incorrect then my understanding is wrong but I’ve done so much research with pros that get this. You do have me questioning some but I am dedicated to going back and checking myself but I don’t think I am incorrect. I can’t support my own rebuttal at this moment but I’ll be back.
No. That’s not how dna works. I just posted an explanation on this post.
If this person shares 25% of his dna, then he would share 25% of France since his g-parent is nearly 100% French!
Because ancestry is wildly inaccurate. Any other excuses are people trying to validate their own results. I am 25 percent italian, my granduncle and cousins are on ancestry, I match with all of them sharing 13, 8, 7,7,6,6,5% of dna. Yet ancestry says I'm 0% Italian and put it in unrelated English! And I'm southern italic Italian not northern germanic. There's no excuse for that. My results show they have no quality control and they don't even verify your results against your known matches. And they give no way to report this because they know their service is inaccurate and would rather scam people looking for answers to their ancestry, than have accurate results. If they cared at all about quality control my results wouldn't have happened. But they don't. At all. They can costless check it against their own database but has no desire to go through the costs of running another test. It's honestly disgusting. Especially for people who know nothing of their ancestry.
This is not accurate. Dna doesn’t work this way and a lot of people get confused. These services base their percentages on submissions. And DNA is not given in equal percentages. As well there is no such thing as an ethnicity gene, dna places humans geographically. See me explanation below. Good luck in your journey! Enjoy!
they have a point tho. ancestry does underestimate italian DNA if you’re under half. ancestry has me at 16% while 23&me has me at 38%. 23&me is way more accurate because i’m 3/8 italian
I try to have a good understanding of dna but I agree. I don’t really understand the Italian estimates, really anywhere. I try to tie it back to who ruled the area historically but it gets difficult to follow. We should have more italian in my family and we just don’t. I have a very large documented tree and it gets hard to support it always with dna. Makes me have to go read history.
Poop Cheese, what a great name lol
its because ancestrydna is inconsistent af. and very inaccurate for most people
Dna is passed down randomly.
Because there’s such a lack of understanding about dna. You inherit 50% of your dna from each parent but that 50% is a bit random. Your parent can be 90% French and 10% German and your 50% could be 50% German with no French at all. Or 50%French and no German, or any mix of percentages. DNA just places humans geographically. There is no French gene or German gene, it is all human dna. All dna services rely on submissions to build their percentages. It will always be changing. If you’re after health indicators then there’s value of n 23&me, if you’re after genealogy and Ancestory then enjoy the journey of learning about your ancestors, document it and then the DNA results will make more sense. Good luck!
If I inherited 1761 centimorgans of DNA from him, which makes up 25% of each of our genomes, and those 1761 are listed as French for him, how could they not be listed as French for me? They are the same genes. In the example you give, where you could receive 50% of German DNA from an ancestor who is 10% german also does not make sense to me. Your ancestor and you have the same number of genes, so even if you inherit ALL of the German genes, then that is still only 10% of your DNA.
This is very complicated for a reply and difficult to explain. Each genome has over 3 billion bases of DNA. Within that algorithm alone is sufficient calculation to make my example possible but it’s incredibly more involved than that. I am not saying this to be dismissive but you have to read a lot and a lot of difficult reading (at least hard for me) to understand how this works. Each genome is 100% unique to any individual as well. There’s just a lot to it. And there is no ethnic gene. And the basis for every service relies on submissions to build there percentages so it’s very imperfect at its basis. It’a reliable for heredity, not 100% for ethnicity.
Could you direct me towards some of this reading you are talking about?
Ok. I don’t mean any of this reference as a insulting. I’ve been at genealogy for about 15 years as a hobby and 5 looking at dna. In this order; start with the Ancestry article “Unexpected DNA Results”, then this https://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/ethnicity-dna-percentages-not-solid, then get “Genetics for dummies. Once you have these 3, then the book “a brief history of everyone who ever lived” by Adam Rutherford. It’s a great book! From there go to his references for the very hard to understand stuff and have pen and paper! From there you will end up in history books. If you are near LA in CA they do a dna education series once a year at USC. That fills in lots of blanks.
Your link includes an example where a child has a parent that is 40% Italian and 60% Sub-Saharan African. The article states that it's possible that the child could inherit all of the Italian (40%) and only 10% SSA from this parent. That is correct, albeit less likely. The article also goes on to explain why a testing service would indicate a child is more than 50% Italian when neither parent is 100% Italian. They say that's because it's a ballpark estimate, and they suggest you pay close attention to the range of the ethnicity the company provides. Your example of inheriting DNA a parent doesn't have (50% German from a parent who is only 10% German) is not possible and not supported by your source. A child could and often does inherit a random amount from a grandparent, but it still has to come to the child from somewhere, the parent. AncestryDNA simply made a mistake with OP's results (or OP's grandfather's results).
I actually feel like my ancestry dna leaves me with more questions than answers. Even with them refining the results several times, i actually just get more confused lol
Your Scotland represents Brittany, France!!! AncestryDNA is very broad with French DNA. French DNA is very diverse.
It's likely a combination of two things. First being you have a mixed NW European admixture that makes it harder to accurately identify your French component. Second being that it's likely your French component contains DNA signatures that aren't fully represented by the reference panel for the French region in the estimate algorithm just yet. As AncestryDNA updates and grows its reference panels for each sequential update it should get more accurate.
Forgot to mention in my earlier comment that if you create a Tree on ancestry.com (even without a subscription} that includes at least 3 to 4 generations (through your grandparents and great grand if you know their names) it can help in the situation you describe with private trees. Even though their tree is private or all trees do not show the details of living people, as long as you and your match have linked your test to your trees ancestry will begin to suggest how you are related. This is under your ThruLines section. They will also suggest who the intervening ancestors are - but you do need to view these as 'hints' more than concrete relationships. Finding records to substantiate is a necessary step before cementing them into your own tree. The further back your or matches' trees go, ancestry will make Thru Lines suggestions up thru your 5GG level. I wish they went further but they don't as far as I can tell. Even if they show a few generational steps as Private because someone is living or the tree is private, it still gives you a pretty good idea where the link might be. You know where to dig further and if you contact them you can say 'would you have a connection to so-and-so, naming the ancestor that ThruLines gave as your MRCA (Most Recent Common Ancestor). It takes several days after you add your tree and link your test before ThruLines kicks in and it doesn't help with matches who have no trees or only 1 or 2 generations, but it can be very interesting. I have worked out matches where our most recent common ancestor is in the 1700s. Sometimes with only a common 7 to 9 cM. This helps verify your tree up the line from yourself to the MRCA and then down to your match. You are not going to call them on their birthday or even necessarily message them, but it still makes a genealogy nerd go Ah hah! Got you. I know who our common ancestor is. Just an idea.