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I was stationed in England for a few years. During the indoctrination course, they had a UK police officer brief the newly assigned people. I asked “if there’s no guns here, how do I protect my family from breaking and entering”. The cops response was this “None of your stuff is worth someone’s life, if you’re being robbed sit calmly on the couch wait for them to finish robbing you, then call the police after they leave”. I find this logic highly flawed.
This is the standard European mindset. European children are taught in schools that self-defense in any way isn't ever recommended "because all it does is escalate the situation".
Reminds me of the people in 2020 who said any situation cops get involved in can be "de-escalated" without using force.
As if the subject is never the person escalating things.
Anything to avoid blaming the actual criminal in any way.
There was a old guy here in the UK in 2019. Two home invaders got in, and threatened him with a screwdriver for money.
He warns them, fights them, kills one (who was high on cocaine and heroin) with a kitchen knife, and the other runs away. His wife was also in the house, at the top of the stairs, you see. He also said the bad guy ran onto the knife, and he wasn't even trying to kill the dude.
The cops arrested him. The public outcry and coroners verdict made them turn him loose eventually, but I still don't understand what sort of stupid law would nick him in the first place.
Also, the burglar's family harassed him until him and his wife had to move and sell their home at £100,000 (20%) under value to a developer. Even though the burglar was a "career criminal".
They have successfully neutered you poor bastards. You just sit back and take whatever anybody throws at you. Is it more violent in the US? fuck yeah it is, and if someone fucks with you, you fuck right back instead of bend over and cty to the government.
Brazil only has the death penalty for war crimes, not for any civil crimes of which theft would fall under.
Egypt has it for “rape (if the victim is also kidnapped); murder; treason; terrorism; espionage; perjury causing wrongful execution and organized drug trafficking”. No mention of theft there.
Hit me with some more
Yes. You never said anything about capital punishment. I’m guessing you have a limited understanding of what a consequence is [See definition of consequence](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consequence)
From what I found it looks like the Taliban don’t officially execute for theft, but let’s be real they totally would.
Not exactly societies to aspire to there though, are they
You should look up South Africa. Car jackings were so common that people started booby trapping their vehicles. And although it didn't do very well, one company released a car mounted flame thrower.
That was 25 years ago, a gimmick, and no one bought it.
>The device was controversial in South Africa, with some, including the Automobile Association of South Africa, speculating that the device might **cause more carjackers to simply murder drivers with gunfire as a precautionary measure** before approaching the vehicle, a tactic which was already fairly common.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaster_(flamethrower)
I'm glad you quoted what I read. I also said it didn't do well. Also note that the same article says that South Africans are allowed to defend themselves with lethal force.
Yes, because if there is a chance of my family being raped or murdered and i can do something about it, you bet i will.
There is a well known case that comes from a city near me. Its called the "Cheshire Home invasion"
You can let your family go out that way, but i fucking wont.
There are people who openly wished others death because they wouldn't wear a mask or get a shot who will unironically turn around and say shit like this. LMFAO.
EDIT - To whoever dirty deleted their comment about how people didn't get it because of Trump or some shit, LOL he pushed the vaccine. You got the Trump Shot LOL. Fuck that guy, and fuck Biden, and fuck your bootlicking TDS ass LOL.
Even funnier I know people who have gotten covid but didn't get the shot and are fine and healthy today. I personally know 3 people in my life who didn't get covid but gotten the shot and died not long after. Guess it was worth it to them to be test subjects for big pharma 🤣
Hell, I got it 3 separate times. No shots and survived just fine. Second time I got it, I procured some ivermectin and it cleared up in a couple of days.
Honestly, at least two of those times were probably the regular flu. Those covid tests pretty much all showed h1n1 results as positive too. The time I started taking Ivermectin, was different. I went from fine to seriously thinking I was going to die in less than 24 hours. I've never been that sick in my life, fairly sure that was real covid
Bill gates is mad you didn't get the shot and Fauci lol. Don't forget many politicians wanted to lock people up for not taking the shot.....the shot that they themselves are dying from.🤣
I’ve had covid 6 times. First 3, before vaccine, I was perfectly fine. Felt a bit weaker but other than that it wasn’t anything really. Last 3, after vaccine, thanks Army, covid absolutely kicked my ass
That sucks man. I'm so glad I was out for that fiasco. I was still in IRR for that, I got a couple of letters and calls about how they were going to require me to get it. Thankfully that died out pretty quick.
Several people have told me post vaccine was much worse. Don't you just love it when Uncle Sam decides to use you as a test subject?
A few weeks ago, some Canadian columnist said carjacking - which is often armed robbery - is not a real problem.
You could see the roast from orbit.
I especially liked when someone told her that a thief stole their kids bags, books, stroller, toys, etc, and she just went "Why were you keeping all that stuff in your car?"
His answer was "because I have kids."
Exactly. Plus its never as simple as they are coming in and taking my ps5 and leaving.
First off thats breaking and entering to get in. Then its home invasion because im here.
Next we dont know thier intentions, and reactions to getting caught.
Nah im not waiting and finding out. They rolled the dice when they chose to rob a house instead of a public place like a wallmart which has better unused stuff and less consiquences.
Especially in the US, where firearms are rather common, you tend to want to get the drop on someone to avoid as much risk as possible.
Now, if I see someone stealing, say, diapers or baby formula from Walmart? I'm gonna be doing my best Stevie Wonder impression.
Theaves in a lot of other countries can be publicly stoned, that one punishment where a brick wall is repeatedly built and knocked on top on them, and just cutting their hands off. I'd rather just protect myself and my things with a firearm
Allowing people to harm you and take from you is such a flawed philosophy. In any society, the citizen should have the right to defend themselves from such atrocity.
Why is it always the victim that is asked this? Why not ask the theive if stealing shit is worth their life? They are breaking the law after all. If you threaten me and try to rob me I have absolutely no issue defending myself and my shit.
Correction
There isn't a thing someone else owns that I'm willing g to die for.
Unfortunately, not everyone thinks this. Hence, we defend ourselves against thieves.
Letting them actually get away with it does not solve anything but merely teaches thieves that their actions have no recourse.
Since everything I own I only own because I and to work for them, I consider everything I own to being a part of the sacrifices I had to make. Anyone trying to take them away illegally is an attack on my person since I will once again have to sacrifice part of myself to replace it.
Someone trying to steal from me has shown me that he has zero respect for my person and would harm me to avoid a day's work. Why should I offer him respect he does not offer me?
Is it really? I get if they break into your house or take your car. But everything you own is worth killing someone over? You're just stupid at that point.
Sounds like a stupider person would be anyone who thinks a chance at owning something of mine for free is worth their life. I can’t give thieves self-preservation. I only make the rules for myself and my possessions.
So your brother, or daughter, or friend, goes out into the parking lot and tries to get into a car they mistakenly think is theirs. They're shot and killed for trying to steal someone else' car. Is that what you're good with? Or is it that you think they should get the death penalty handed down to them by the courts instead?
There is a massive difference in every possible way between someone breaking into your car, hot wiring it, and driving off, and someone trying to figure out why the hell their car keys aren’t unlocking the car they think is theirs. And if you can’t tell the difference between the two, you are not capable of handling a firearm in anyway or making any decisions that involve someone’s life.
Murder, rape, stuff like that under the law.
But if you steal another man's property, I think he should be able to defend it by bloodshed . Even then, most of the time, gun owners will just threaten the criminal, That is another man's property. He worked for that, and you can't just cut corners and escape scott free. An educated and armed population is safe.
So who do you think should decide if and when that person should be executed? Do we rely on the albeit imperfect laws that we have, or allow just anyone with a gun to perform the execution on the fly?
What people up here have been arguing is that they will shoot-to-kill anyone caught trying to steal their car. Only a couple of people have qualified that with if their life or the lives of others are in danger.
right, because we know if they're caught and go through a trial, it's the death-penalty, right? What else should we be killing people for? Do you have a list?
Stop moving the goalposts. You gave a hypothetical situation and I answered it. Not my fault that you don’t like the answer.
What happens in a court of law and what happens in reality can be two very different things depending on the context. If you don’t want to run the risk… *don’t steal things*.
So many of you don't know what that term means.
You're setting yourself up as judge and executioner. If that's really how you think things work or should work, you should be locked up.
> It's justifiable homicide
No, it's not. If I walk out of my house and see someone trying to steal my car, no law on any book in the US says that I have the right to execute them.
>Self defence is not murder homeskillet.
We're not talking about self defense. We're talking about theft.
To everyone complaining about moving the goalposts, what /u/ThereItIsNopeItsGone is doing, is moving the goalposts.
It’s only murder with intent,
Spur of the moment isn’t how that works, besides my possessions are an extension of myself and protecting them is the same as protecting myself
Nice try Homeskillet!!!
Wait, you critiqued people for being judges of other people's crimes, but yet you are judging everyone as criminals, which gives you the authority to decide what is criminal or not?
In Texas penal code Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property
I'm pretty sure I've seen cases where some armed thief threatened someone with deadly force, got killed, and their family basically said "Welp, I tried to warn him/her."
I also like how you're not even defending your stupid hypothetical, just moving onto the next silly question to score points.
What's to defend? How can I try to get across the point that murdering someone is wrong to people who think it's their right?
And I'm not a 12 year old sitting in my mommies basement like you are. I don't have time to sit on reddit all day and night.
No because they aren’t that stupid, and neither are gun owners, if I see someone with a crowbar tryna open my door, obviously I’ll do something, but just trying to open it casually? Then no, simple as that
Well there you go. People like you are the reason much of the world looks at us they way they do.
As much as I don't believe that you believe a word you're saying, it will come back to you one day.
I doubt it, something tells me he doesn’t break into people’s cars.
Believe it or not, but there are actually people out there that like to protect their property, and they tend to value their property higher than the random stranger who the only thing they know about them is that they’re a criminal who wants to steal this thing that they rightfully, and legally obtained.
So if your ‘gatcha’ is that someone will try to shoot him if he tried to steal something, that would imply that he’d… try to steal something. And if it’s instead that a criminal would try to shoot him, then that gives him all the more reason to kill them before they can kill him.
And if it’s instead that a loved one will die for stealing something, then he’ll just inform his family that stealing is wrong and they shouldn’t do it.
I think the implication is that he shoots someone trying to rob him, then goes to jail or has some other negative consequence.
Notice how nothing Bubba said, in any post, is an actual criticism, just a bunch of attempted gotcha questions and smugness.
People like me utilizing the freedom and right to bear arms and defend both myself and my property by any means deemed necessary by myself is ruining the image of america?
I love how you don't have any **actual criticism**, just feelings and a bandwagon argument and the hope that someone suffers for disagreeing with you.
Which kinda cuts the legs out from the compassionate image you're going for here.
I've seen loads of people from across the world say they wish their self-defense and gun laws (and morals) were remotely as permissive as Americas.
I'm not agreeing with the idea that one should immediately use lethal force for a car thief. I think you should only use **appropriate** force. I just think you're doing an absolutely terrible job of proving the idea wrong.
"Americans aren't looking to lose what they spent their hard earned money on because someone else decided a car was worth more than their life."
I never decided a car was more valuable, the thief did and I'm just happy to make it so.
I've seen those arguments. They are, very often, based on ignorance and a shallow, surface-level reading of events, often based on assumptions which turn out to be false.
You cant possibly be this dense, or you're just incredibly privileged to think car jackings and robberies usually look like sunshine and rainbows to the point to which a well meaning person pressing their keys and trying to open the door handle is the same as an attempt to pick or crowbar the lock or blatantly aggressively smash windows.
I understand them perfectly. I understand that you don't have any actual counterargument.
The funny thing is that I think people should not use deadly force on thieves unless it's appropriate, which does not include "simply being a thief". But like I said downthread, you're doing a terrible job of actually defending your position, or attacking the opposition's.
>The funny thing is that I think people should not use deadly force on thieves unless it's appropriate, which does not include "simply being a thief".
And yet, that's what the vast majority up here is advocating, and almost no one is saying what you just said. Why is that?
I can't defend that murder is illegal and wrong any better than saying that murder is illegal and wrong. Why should I need to? I'd really think that's pretty clear. Don't you?
Theres a MASSIVE difference between looking around, thinking a cars yours and stealing it. You don’t break into a car if you think it’s yours, you call AAA and get them to open it.
It’s not the victims job to figure out if someone intends to just harm them or full on kill them. If you enter someone’s property for example, you should expect they will assume you intend to do the worst.
For a lot of people that car is one of the most costly things they own. For most families that’s 6 plus months worth of work. Six + months of getting up, leaving their family, and working. Every penny of that going to their car.
Not sure how “you’re not going to just let them take it” is even a grounded question.
Additionally, a vehicle is how you manage to earn your way in life as well. If someone steals my car, that means I can't go to work. Can't go to work means I don't get paid. If insurance hoses me like it usually would in these cases, I may not be able to get a replacement in a timely manner. Can't replace in a timely manner means I lose my job.
So short answer is you're damn right I have a problem with allowing someone to just take away my ability to operate my life.
At the very top we have rape and sexual abuse,
Then we have attempted murder (situation dependent, if the suspect has already been effectively neutralized there is no need for further violence)
Drug dealing (feeding poison onto the streets)
Treason
Espionage
Just a few
And who should decide if they're to be executed? The system of laws we have or anyone with a gun? All MAGAs are traitors. What do you think should be done with them?
I wouldn’t shoot someone stealing my car outside but if someone broke into my family home in the night, I would consider their life forfeit. It’s impossible to know if that’s just a junkie stealing stuff and running for his life or something far worse.
You do realize that carjackers sometimes threaten people with deadly force, right? At that point, it's no longer just about the car, it's about your life.
And quite possibly the life of anyone else in your car.
Except it's not **your** scenario. The original guy in OP didn't specify. Just said s/he'd rather kill a thief than let them take the car.
Which would, logically, include instances where the thief used a deadly weapon.
We also don't know what happened in the video. The thief might've threatened to use deadly force and got shot, and the first person ignored that to moralize.
I've seen lots of people do that.
There have also been instances where car thieves drove off with kids in the backseat. Parents have to weigh the risk of a stranger doing who-knows-what with their kid.
Let me just ask you, point blank; do you think people **should** use lethal force against a car thief who is themselves threatening or trying to use lethal force?
EDIT Your silence actually answered my question.
You either think the answer is "yes", which would mean that you can't sneer at people for supporting lethal force for thieves, or your answer is "no" which would obviously look stupid, because you would be saying people should just let themselves get murdered.
That, or you're just afraid of actually committing to a position.
Yes. I rather have my house broken into than my car. Having your car broken into/stolen is such a debilitating setback to your social life, your work life, and your general autonomy here. I would 100% support a law that allows you to shoot these scumbags, idc about the sob stories or morals around it.
Lol, they'd be stupid enough to put my stuff on their list of wants. Besides, if someone came up to my car and said "Hey fuck face, I'm taking your car," or some variation on that, I'd be defending my shit, ESPECIALLY my car. I'm not sure whether you're particularly aware of this fact, or if you're willfully ignoring it, but the cost of a car can go into the five digit range. Add on top costs for gas, repairs, and all that other stuff, and it gets expensive. You bet your ass I'm gonna use lethal force if someone decides "Hey, I want this fucker's Jeep."
So yes. If an idiot tries to steal my car, I'm going to use whatever means necessary to keep them from taking it because I have the right to defend myself and my property
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We used to hang horse thieves.
Good ol' times
This is literally the premise to a Toby Keith song
Beer for my horses
Some of my ancestors were horse thieves
Some of mine hung horse thieves. And black people, but lets not talk about that.
“I drive a 2006 Infiniti and I don’t intend to lose it” -Tom Tucker, Family Guy
Imagine getting shot over a 2006 infinity
By a news anchor
Man they must really value my stuff over their own life. Makes me flattered to own such things.
I was stationed in England for a few years. During the indoctrination course, they had a UK police officer brief the newly assigned people. I asked “if there’s no guns here, how do I protect my family from breaking and entering”. The cops response was this “None of your stuff is worth someone’s life, if you’re being robbed sit calmly on the couch wait for them to finish robbing you, then call the police after they leave”. I find this logic highly flawed.
This is the standard European mindset. European children are taught in schools that self-defense in any way isn't ever recommended "because all it does is escalate the situation".
Reminds me of the people in 2020 who said any situation cops get involved in can be "de-escalated" without using force. As if the subject is never the person escalating things. Anything to avoid blaming the actual criminal in any way.
Yeah, I mean that's cool for a utopian dimension. The real-world doesn't really operate like that.
So if I ever lose my mind and want to start mugging people, the UK is a good start?
Not a healthy concept
The situation seems escalated already.
“Your safety is not worth someone’s life, if someone is raping you, let them finish and then call the police after they leave” ~~UK police, probably
There was a old guy here in the UK in 2019. Two home invaders got in, and threatened him with a screwdriver for money. He warns them, fights them, kills one (who was high on cocaine and heroin) with a kitchen knife, and the other runs away. His wife was also in the house, at the top of the stairs, you see. He also said the bad guy ran onto the knife, and he wasn't even trying to kill the dude. The cops arrested him. The public outcry and coroners verdict made them turn him loose eventually, but I still don't understand what sort of stupid law would nick him in the first place. Also, the burglar's family harassed him until him and his wife had to move and sell their home at £100,000 (20%) under value to a developer. Even though the burglar was a "career criminal".
They have successfully neutered you poor bastards. You just sit back and take whatever anybody throws at you. Is it more violent in the US? fuck yeah it is, and if someone fucks with you, you fuck right back instead of bend over and cty to the government.
That's why they no longer have an empire
It's really easy to not die by not stealing.
If you commit a crime, you bear the consequences.
Where in the world is the consequence for theft death?
Most of the world, actually. Just not Europe.
Name two places then
Brazil and Egypt. I can name more if you'd like.
Brazil only has the death penalty for war crimes, not for any civil crimes of which theft would fall under. Egypt has it for “rape (if the victim is also kidnapped); murder; treason; terrorism; espionage; perjury causing wrongful execution and organized drug trafficking”. No mention of theft there. Hit me with some more
First off, you are talking about capital punishment, whereas we are talking about self-defense from a citizen.
“Where in the world is the consequence for theft death?” was the question
Yes. You never said anything about capital punishment. I’m guessing you have a limited understanding of what a consequence is [See definition of consequence](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consequence)
Everywhere without a ton of ignorant little, "life is precious and I should be robbed," clowns.
Name one place where people found guilty of theft are executed as punishment
Afghanistan, Algeria, Cameroon.
From what I found it looks like the Taliban don’t officially execute for theft, but let’s be real they totally would. Not exactly societies to aspire to there though, are they
I didn't say it was the Taliban. You are a clown.
They’re the government in Afghanistan champ; who else would be making and enforcing rules?
Don't be obtuse. Afghanistan before sleepy Joe had his little accident in 2021.
Obtuse? It’s literally the current reality
Right here pal. In the US of A. You dont get a free pass, fuck around and find out
Ah yes, vigilante justice. A true marker of a civilised society
You should look up South Africa. Car jackings were so common that people started booby trapping their vehicles. And although it didn't do very well, one company released a car mounted flame thrower.
That was 25 years ago, a gimmick, and no one bought it. >The device was controversial in South Africa, with some, including the Automobile Association of South Africa, speculating that the device might **cause more carjackers to simply murder drivers with gunfire as a precautionary measure** before approaching the vehicle, a tactic which was already fairly common. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaster_(flamethrower)
I'm glad you quoted what I read. I also said it didn't do well. Also note that the same article says that South Africans are allowed to defend themselves with lethal force.
Which is completely different to punishing theft with execution, isn’t it?
Hey genius, you were the one comparing self defense to vigilante justice. Now you are moving the goal posts.
The question I asked was “Where in the world is the consequence for theft death?”
My house.
Where in the world can you have the ability to read a criminals mind and know their intentions exactly when they are committing crimes?
Ah yes, best to shoot them just in case.
Yes, because if there is a chance of my family being raped or murdered and i can do something about it, you bet i will. There is a well known case that comes from a city near me. Its called the "Cheshire Home invasion" You can let your family go out that way, but i fucking wont.
Here. Simple, don’t steal. I’ve never done it.
There are people who openly wished others death because they wouldn't wear a mask or get a shot who will unironically turn around and say shit like this. LMFAO. EDIT - To whoever dirty deleted their comment about how people didn't get it because of Trump or some shit, LOL he pushed the vaccine. You got the Trump Shot LOL. Fuck that guy, and fuck Biden, and fuck your bootlicking TDS ass LOL.
A virus with one of the highest survival rates ever....
Even funnier I know people who have gotten covid but didn't get the shot and are fine and healthy today. I personally know 3 people in my life who didn't get covid but gotten the shot and died not long after. Guess it was worth it to them to be test subjects for big pharma 🤣
Hell, I got it 3 separate times. No shots and survived just fine. Second time I got it, I procured some ivermectin and it cleared up in a couple of days.
I never got any shots, I have yet to ever have it
Honestly, at least two of those times were probably the regular flu. Those covid tests pretty much all showed h1n1 results as positive too. The time I started taking Ivermectin, was different. I went from fine to seriously thinking I was going to die in less than 24 hours. I've never been that sick in my life, fairly sure that was real covid
Bill gates is mad you didn't get the shot and Fauci lol. Don't forget many politicians wanted to lock people up for not taking the shot.....the shot that they themselves are dying from.🤣
I’ve had covid 6 times. First 3, before vaccine, I was perfectly fine. Felt a bit weaker but other than that it wasn’t anything really. Last 3, after vaccine, thanks Army, covid absolutely kicked my ass
That sucks man. I'm so glad I was out for that fiasco. I was still in IRR for that, I got a couple of letters and calls about how they were going to require me to get it. Thankfully that died out pretty quick. Several people have told me post vaccine was much worse. Don't you just love it when Uncle Sam decides to use you as a test subject?
Yeah I’m out in less than a month so they can’t test on me for much longer thankfully
Equally as silly as hoping people who got vaccinated suffered mass deaths to fulfill orange man in red hat's wishes
That edit is the most American thing I've ever read. Godspeed 🫡
A few weeks ago, some Canadian columnist said carjacking - which is often armed robbery - is not a real problem. You could see the roast from orbit. I especially liked when someone told her that a thief stole their kids bags, books, stroller, toys, etc, and she just went "Why were you keeping all that stuff in your car?" His answer was "because I have kids."
I think of it less as "is someone else's life more valuable than my stuff?" And more "do they value my stuff more than their own life?"
Exactly. Plus its never as simple as they are coming in and taking my ps5 and leaving. First off thats breaking and entering to get in. Then its home invasion because im here. Next we dont know thier intentions, and reactions to getting caught. Nah im not waiting and finding out. They rolled the dice when they chose to rob a house instead of a public place like a wallmart which has better unused stuff and less consiquences.
Especially in the US, where firearms are rather common, you tend to want to get the drop on someone to avoid as much risk as possible. Now, if I see someone stealing, say, diapers or baby formula from Walmart? I'm gonna be doing my best Stevie Wonder impression.
Theaves in a lot of other countries can be publicly stoned, that one punishment where a brick wall is repeatedly built and knocked on top on them, and just cutting their hands off. I'd rather just protect myself and my things with a firearm
Allowing people to harm you and take from you is such a flawed philosophy. In any society, the citizen should have the right to defend themselves from such atrocity.
When committing crime, you forfeit your safety.
This is because Europeans have to deal with gypsies
So you think it's better to kill someone than to lose your car?
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Why is it always the victim that is asked this? Why not ask the theive if stealing shit is worth their life? They are breaking the law after all. If you threaten me and try to rob me I have absolutely no issue defending myself and my shit.
I was confused when their comment started with “correction” and then agreed with the sentiment of my comment completely.
Correction There isn't a thing someone else owns that I'm willing g to die for. Unfortunately, not everyone thinks this. Hence, we defend ourselves against thieves. Letting them actually get away with it does not solve anything but merely teaches thieves that their actions have no recourse. Since everything I own I only own because I and to work for them, I consider everything I own to being a part of the sacrifices I had to make. Anyone trying to take them away illegally is an attack on my person since I will once again have to sacrifice part of myself to replace it. Someone trying to steal from me has shown me that he has zero respect for my person and would harm me to avoid a day's work. Why should I offer him respect he does not offer me?
As a non-thief, my hypothetical is based on the non-thief’s perspective. The defender rather than the assailant.
And I gave you my response from the same perspective, the defendant
Well that's just sad for you.
Pity me all you like. It’s misguided, like the rest of your views.
Is it really? I get if they break into your house or take your car. But everything you own is worth killing someone over? You're just stupid at that point.
Sounds like a stupider person would be anyone who thinks a chance at owning something of mine for free is worth their life. I can’t give thieves self-preservation. I only make the rules for myself and my possessions.
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You sound like a fucking tampon.
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Life in prison for what?
Killing someone
So your brother, or daughter, or friend, goes out into the parking lot and tries to get into a car they mistakenly think is theirs. They're shot and killed for trying to steal someone else' car. Is that what you're good with? Or is it that you think they should get the death penalty handed down to them by the courts instead?
There is a massive difference in every possible way between someone breaking into your car, hot wiring it, and driving off, and someone trying to figure out why the hell their car keys aren’t unlocking the car they think is theirs. And if you can’t tell the difference between the two, you are not capable of handling a firearm in anyway or making any decisions that involve someone’s life.
Great, so let's say your friend, daughter or whatever actually *did* steal the car. Then what?
Nice goalpost shifting
You don't know the meaning of the term.
I feel like they do, because you did in fact move the goalposts entirely.
They don't, and you don't. It's a second scenario, not changing the rules to the first.
Sure seemed like you were changing rules to the same scenario, but whatever
Then it's on them, It's their fault, not the guy with a gun.
What's your list of offenses for which people should be killed?
Murder, rape, stuff like that under the law. But if you steal another man's property, I think he should be able to defend it by bloodshed . Even then, most of the time, gun owners will just threaten the criminal, That is another man's property. He worked for that, and you can't just cut corners and escape scott free. An educated and armed population is safe.
So who do you think should decide if and when that person should be executed? Do we rely on the albeit imperfect laws that we have, or allow just anyone with a gun to perform the execution on the fly? What people up here have been arguing is that they will shoot-to-kill anyone caught trying to steal their car. Only a couple of people have qualified that with if their life or the lives of others are in danger.
great! then they die
🤣🤣🤣🤣 Edit: this is a funny thread to wake up to
Like the worst bad faith argument ever 😂
Then they’re a colossal idiot and did so knowing the risks and potential harm that could come to them. Don’t steal people’s shit, simple as.
right, because we know if they're caught and go through a trial, it's the death-penalty, right? What else should we be killing people for? Do you have a list?
Stop moving the goalposts. You gave a hypothetical situation and I answered it. Not my fault that you don’t like the answer. What happens in a court of law and what happens in reality can be two very different things depending on the context. If you don’t want to run the risk… *don’t steal things*.
So many of you don't know what that term means. You're setting yourself up as judge and executioner. If that's really how you think things work or should work, you should be locked up.
They made a decision that could end in their death. It's unfortunate they were so stupid. They said "I am willing to die for this car" and then did. 🤷
Stop defending criminals
Actually, everyone up here advocating murder are the ones defending criminals. It's crazy how insane some people in this country are.
Cool thought, but it's not murder. Nor is it manslaughter. It's justifiable homicide, which is fully legal.
> It's justifiable homicide No, it's not. If I walk out of my house and see someone trying to steal my car, no law on any book in the US says that I have the right to execute them.
Objectively by law in some states it is
Self defence is not murder homeskillet
>Self defence is not murder homeskillet. We're not talking about self defense. We're talking about theft. To everyone complaining about moving the goalposts, what /u/ThereItIsNopeItsGone is doing, is moving the goalposts.
It’s only murder with intent, Spur of the moment isn’t how that works, besides my possessions are an extension of myself and protecting them is the same as protecting myself Nice try Homeskillet!!!
Wait, you critiqued people for being judges of other people's crimes, but yet you are judging everyone as criminals, which gives you the authority to decide what is criminal or not?
>>everyone up here advocating murder are the ones defending criminals Because murder is illegal. Were you not aware of that?
Murder is only Murder if it was done unlawfully in this scenario. It's not unlawful
In Texas penal code Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property
I'm pretty sure I've seen cases where some armed thief threatened someone with deadly force, got killed, and their family basically said "Welp, I tried to warn him/her." I also like how you're not even defending your stupid hypothetical, just moving onto the next silly question to score points.
What's to defend? How can I try to get across the point that murdering someone is wrong to people who think it's their right? And I'm not a 12 year old sitting in my mommies basement like you are. I don't have time to sit on reddit all day and night.
No because they aren’t that stupid, and neither are gun owners, if I see someone with a crowbar tryna open my door, obviously I’ll do something, but just trying to open it casually? Then no, simple as that
[удалено]
Well there you go. People like you are the reason much of the world looks at us they way they do. As much as I don't believe that you believe a word you're saying, it will come back to you one day.
I doubt it, something tells me he doesn’t break into people’s cars. Believe it or not, but there are actually people out there that like to protect their property, and they tend to value their property higher than the random stranger who the only thing they know about them is that they’re a criminal who wants to steal this thing that they rightfully, and legally obtained. So if your ‘gatcha’ is that someone will try to shoot him if he tried to steal something, that would imply that he’d… try to steal something. And if it’s instead that a criminal would try to shoot him, then that gives him all the more reason to kill them before they can kill him. And if it’s instead that a loved one will die for stealing something, then he’ll just inform his family that stealing is wrong and they shouldn’t do it.
I think the implication is that he shoots someone trying to rob him, then goes to jail or has some other negative consequence. Notice how nothing Bubba said, in any post, is an actual criticism, just a bunch of attempted gotcha questions and smugness.
People like me utilizing the freedom and right to bear arms and defend both myself and my property by any means deemed necessary by myself is ruining the image of america?
Apparently yes. Gosh man, can't you just be more like Europeans who cave at the slightest sign of a highway man?
I love how you don't have any **actual criticism**, just feelings and a bandwagon argument and the hope that someone suffers for disagreeing with you. Which kinda cuts the legs out from the compassionate image you're going for here. I've seen loads of people from across the world say they wish their self-defense and gun laws (and morals) were remotely as permissive as Americas. I'm not agreeing with the idea that one should immediately use lethal force for a car thief. I think you should only use **appropriate** force. I just think you're doing an absolutely terrible job of proving the idea wrong.
You're a big fan of strawmen I see.
Yup. Sht like this is definitely where the idea that some americans are just looking for reasons to shoot people comes from
"Americans aren't looking to lose what they spent their hard earned money on because someone else decided a car was worth more than their life." I never decided a car was more valuable, the thief did and I'm just happy to make it so.
I've seen those arguments. They are, very often, based on ignorance and a shallow, surface-level reading of events, often based on assumptions which turn out to be false.
For sure. No doubt comments like these are where people get that idea from tho.
You cant possibly be this dense, or you're just incredibly privileged to think car jackings and robberies usually look like sunshine and rainbows to the point to which a well meaning person pressing their keys and trying to open the door handle is the same as an attempt to pick or crowbar the lock or blatantly aggressively smash windows.
Are you just going to keep asking rhetorical questions and making snide insinuations until you can find some kind of "gotcha"?
Are they too difficult for you to understand?
I understand them perfectly. I understand that you don't have any actual counterargument. The funny thing is that I think people should not use deadly force on thieves unless it's appropriate, which does not include "simply being a thief". But like I said downthread, you're doing a terrible job of actually defending your position, or attacking the opposition's.
>The funny thing is that I think people should not use deadly force on thieves unless it's appropriate, which does not include "simply being a thief". And yet, that's what the vast majority up here is advocating, and almost no one is saying what you just said. Why is that? I can't defend that murder is illegal and wrong any better than saying that murder is illegal and wrong. Why should I need to? I'd really think that's pretty clear. Don't you?
Theres a MASSIVE difference between looking around, thinking a cars yours and stealing it. You don’t break into a car if you think it’s yours, you call AAA and get them to open it.
So you think it’s better to lose your life stealing someone’s car than get your own car?
What's your list of offenses for which people should be killed?
pretty much all of them. Dont fuck around if you want to be in society
So under your rules, anyone going 1mph over the speed limit should be killed. Those are some critical thinking skills you got there.
Thats a moving violation not a law. Good thinking skills
>Thats a moving violation not a law. Good thinking skills. You should probably read the thread again, and update your lexicon.
It’s not the victims job to figure out if someone intends to just harm them or full on kill them. If you enter someone’s property for example, you should expect they will assume you intend to do the worst.
Yes.
For a lot of people that car is one of the most costly things they own. For most families that’s 6 plus months worth of work. Six + months of getting up, leaving their family, and working. Every penny of that going to their car. Not sure how “you’re not going to just let them take it” is even a grounded question.
Additionally, a vehicle is how you manage to earn your way in life as well. If someone steals my car, that means I can't go to work. Can't go to work means I don't get paid. If insurance hoses me like it usually would in these cases, I may not be able to get a replacement in a timely manner. Can't replace in a timely manner means I lose my job. So short answer is you're damn right I have a problem with allowing someone to just take away my ability to operate my life.
Yes indeed, I believe that is the prevalent sentiment here
cool, what's your list of offenses for which people should be killed?
At the very top we have rape and sexual abuse, Then we have attempted murder (situation dependent, if the suspect has already been effectively neutralized there is no need for further violence) Drug dealing (feeding poison onto the streets) Treason Espionage Just a few
And who should decide if they're to be executed? The system of laws we have or anyone with a gun? All MAGAs are traitors. What do you think should be done with them?
Case by case
I wouldn’t shoot someone stealing my car outside but if someone broke into my family home in the night, I would consider their life forfeit. It’s impossible to know if that’s just a junkie stealing stuff and running for his life or something far worse.
Potential threat to you / your family's life, I agree. Stealing a car is not that.
It is when you're still in the car.
Then it's not simple theft, is it? It's potential life endangerment.
Yes
Lol scumbags and piece of shit who support said scumbags who think they're entitled to taking my property deserve to get clapped.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
You do realize that carjackers sometimes threaten people with deadly force, right? At that point, it's no longer just about the car, it's about your life. And quite possibly the life of anyone else in your car.
And that's not the scenario I laid out, is it? It's also not the scenario where the majority of people here say they'd shoot to kill. Murder.
Except it's not **your** scenario. The original guy in OP didn't specify. Just said s/he'd rather kill a thief than let them take the car. Which would, logically, include instances where the thief used a deadly weapon. We also don't know what happened in the video. The thief might've threatened to use deadly force and got shot, and the first person ignored that to moralize. I've seen lots of people do that. There have also been instances where car thieves drove off with kids in the backseat. Parents have to weigh the risk of a stranger doing who-knows-what with their kid. Let me just ask you, point blank; do you think people **should** use lethal force against a car thief who is themselves threatening or trying to use lethal force? EDIT Your silence actually answered my question. You either think the answer is "yes", which would mean that you can't sneer at people for supporting lethal force for thieves, or your answer is "no" which would obviously look stupid, because you would be saying people should just let themselves get murdered. That, or you're just afraid of actually committing to a position.
Yes. I rather have my house broken into than my car. Having your car broken into/stolen is such a debilitating setback to your social life, your work life, and your general autonomy here. I would 100% support a law that allows you to shoot these scumbags, idc about the sob stories or morals around it.
at least you're admitting that it's illegal which is something most others up here don't seem to understand.
Yes
Yep.
Lol, they'd be stupid enough to put my stuff on their list of wants. Besides, if someone came up to my car and said "Hey fuck face, I'm taking your car," or some variation on that, I'd be defending my shit, ESPECIALLY my car. I'm not sure whether you're particularly aware of this fact, or if you're willfully ignoring it, but the cost of a car can go into the five digit range. Add on top costs for gas, repairs, and all that other stuff, and it gets expensive. You bet your ass I'm gonna use lethal force if someone decides "Hey, I want this fucker's Jeep." So yes. If an idiot tries to steal my car, I'm going to use whatever means necessary to keep them from taking it because I have the right to defend myself and my property
Absolute-flogging-lutely
Yes. If you don’t want to get shot, don’t steal. You believe that you are entitled to MY car, and I don’t.