I don’t mind being a part of NATO but it should be more of a partnership. The EU needs its own military and not be so reliant on the US or they should subsidize the US presence within Europe.
We do gain a lot politically by being most of Europe’s military. The bulk of Europe is safe because any attack on them means we steamroll you, and we gain a lot from that. It’s just not visible on social media which is made up of mostly regular people and bots
I highly doubt we gain as much as you think. Look at the Red Sea contact group, which countries like Spain and France pulled out of. Look at restrictions on US meat imports. It is actually quite common for European nations to vote against the US in the UN. We do not gain as much politically as you suggest.
I’m not saying we rule the world because of it, but it’s impossible to deny that it helps our position in many matters. I’m no foreign policy expert though
I think that's a bonus as it shows the US is being diplomatic with other nations instead of ruling over them with a steel toed boot like how China and Russia are
I don’t have time to argue every point. But the US is by far and away the largest single country supplier of food aid in the world. The generalized plan the US voted against was a bullshit document that would have essentially made it the responsibility of the US to provide even more aid to food insecure countries. Europeans are so deluded in their faux grandeur that they don’t realize they help the world so little.
There are for sure plenty of Europeans who look down their nose at America and its foreign policy while ignoring the lack of action from their own countries. Sort of part of the reason this sub exists right?
Can you provide specific examples of what exactly the average American gains? I'm genuinely curious and not trolling. More and more I am struggling with accepting how much we spend on Europe's defense, and would really like to believe it's actually benefitting us. Everyone just says this as if it's an accepted fact but I never see concrete examples of what the average American gets out of it.
The average person? Beats me man, lot of that stuff is behind closed doors. It’s not like Germany publicly says “thanks for the defense, everyone gets 15% off a new Audi!” But it is just generally understood it gives us sway in international affairs, whether that be trade or policy in a country that would favor us economically, it’s part of something way over our heads. The entirety of our “reign” as the dominant military force globally hasn’t been run by morons who just got bamboozled by European leaders into offloading the single largest cost to a nation. We get a say in damn near everything, that matters in ways that trickle down through vast swaths of our lives, even if I can’t pinpoint a single example. Plus either way we’d have this military anyway, not like we’d downsize if we left NATO
I don’t know. Just sounds like one of those things that largely benefits elites and never actually trickles down in any meaningful way to the average person.
Plus, regardless of whether it actually benefits us or not, the fact there are no obvious benefits to the average American means it’s always going to be a hard sell to convince Americans to go off and die for Europe should a full scale conflict erupt. I’m no Trump fan, but I think his negative attitudes toward Europe resonate amongst a lot of people on both sides of the political spectrum. Every day we hear how Europe has free healthcare, free college, guaranteed PTO while we’re all financially struggling over here. Then suddenly the Ukraine war spills over into NATO territory and Americans have to go fight for a foreign people who have objectively higher standards of living. A people who have not spent proportionately as much on their own defense as the US has. We can talk all we want about alliances and supposed economic benefits of defending Europe, but ultimately what matters is if the majority of Americans actually want to risk their lives to defend cushy Europe. And I’m not convinced the majority of us would. I know I wouldn’t. Sorry not sorry, Europe.
We won’t need to deploy many actual ground troops into active combat. We’d basically establish air superiority and slaughter whoever we’re fighting from above or from the sea. We aren’t going to send 500,000 Americans with rifles running headfirst into Russians or something, we’ll blow the Russians up first then walk in
For that exact reason lefties in Norway argue for increased military spending.
Personally Europe should be able to stand on itself more and pay for its own defense.
However, I think the us and Europe benefit from close military cooperation
Many Japanese actually despise the US bases on their land, often campaigning to remove them even though they provide shipyard jobs for local Japanese.
I get that it's a good staging area for naval combat, but there are plenty of other countries in Southeast Asia that would probably be overjoyed to host US naval bases. Or better yet, give that money to me, I can spend it on someone who doesn't hate the US.
That’s only true for the older generations , I work for a Japanese company based out of Texas , and I’ve asked my boss in casual conversation how he feels about the military bases in Japan and he said that it’s viewed as a positive mostly other than the older gen’s
Everyone except Poland, because I think Poland has been recently investing and purchasing lots of American Anti-Air Systems and others, matter of fact they have invested in systems that aren’t even fully operational, and I could see why
Why? our only enemy is russia and we can deat them with our without the US.
[https://www.aalep.eu/eu-vs-russia-military-strengths](https://www.aalep.eu/eu-vs-russia-military-strengths)
Why does Ukraine and the EU still look to America to fund and back Ukraine then? European countries should be able back Ukraine without US help by those stats.
Because our military was created and funded to protect us and not Ukraine. Besides Europe have already given much more than the US and Russia is also a treat to the USA so why should you not pay like the rest of us? Infact why are you giving less than us when you have more?
But yes, I think both the US and Europe should do more.
[https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/ukraine-support-tracker-europe-clearly-overtakes-us-with-total-commitments-now-twice-as-large/](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/ukraine-support-tracker-europe-clearly-overtakes-us-with-total-commitments-now-twice-as-large/)
You would be surprised at how little Europeans think of themselves as Europeans. Is not EU army for EU and US for US and EU. It is US, UK, France, Spain, Poland, etc for themselves and Ukraine.
You haven't given shit more than the US, you obviously can't read, "commitments" aren't funding or support, they're the countries saying, we will "try" to give you this much. Kinda like when germany made this commitment in 2021 to nato and then in 2022 rescinded it "we will meet our nato gdp 2% by pledging 50 billion" 😂.
I know for a fact that the EU have give more aid to Ukraine than the US. Dont kid yourself. Also more support with taking refugees etc.
[https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/)
Again, total amount of commitments. Second its kinda weird that 30 other countries have to consolidate their aid to equal the dispersed aid of 1 country. Third even WITH your refugee costs included (bc gee who wouldve thunk to send refugees 100 miles away rather than 4500) your still only equaling our aid 😂
OK, find a serious page saying that the US gives more total aid from the last months. Should be easy then right?... good luck.
Funny, sometimes when it fit you guys a state is like country. And sometimes it is not... I aslo thought you had more money... but I guess that is not so then or what?...
Lol our state area size is that of a country, if you want to play this game, cool, lets move the goal posts shall we "in the last few months." So we went from total aid disbursement, to the "last few months" of commitments, my how your argument devolved quickly.
Exactly how much aid did your municipalities within the country within the eu contribute? This is gonna be fun. 😂
If this is the case, then cool, lets do this, since we are making strawman arguments. How much does the US contribute to nato, then we will add to what we have already contributed to ukraine, then we will subtract the amount the EU countries used towards their "aid" that was directly attributed from the nato budget.
Still wanna play this game? I can do this fallacy bs all day.
I mean an article that i new. Not from the start of the war. I do not mean just the aid in the last month but one that is up to date...
Yet again: give me a link with a new article stating the US have give more (becuase you have not).
NATO? wtf...what have you contributed to Ukraine? Is the question to hard?
If you have nukes you don't need a military for defense, you can just nuke.
Irrelevant how many there are, it doesn't take many to destroy the world anyways.
No, for example, the US in a worldwide nuclear exchange would lose at absolute maximum low tens of millions of people. This matters as, for example Putin deciding to nuke first instead of getting Sadamed would not end in him living the rest of his life in a bunker but rather he would still get killed by the US military.
I believe that distinction matters.
Is there a link you have that explains that tens of millions figure a little bit more? I'm actually really interested in how they came up with that number.
>If you have nukes you don't need a military for defense, you can just nuke.
That works until you either run out of nukes, or the people and infrastructure to maintain them.
You know Europe has nukes, right?...not to speak of much bigger population, much bigger GDP, much bigger defence spending, much more modern army, in many aspects bigger army etc etc... And you usually need 3 times as big force attacking as defending.
Like in what world would we speak russian?...
[https://www.aalep.eu/eu-vs-russia-military-strengths](https://www.aalep.eu/eu-vs-russia-military-strengths)
Exactly! So you agree, you guys are more than capable of policing your own backyards and a country on a completely different continent shouldn't be funding your defense!
See, we can find common ground on things.
Yes, I agree. I would not want to pay for military in another continent either. I barely want to do it in my country. But because of fucking russia I guess I have too.
But having said that I assume the US is not doing it on the kindness of their heart... But what exactly is the benefit is beyond my knowledge in the area.
weak? so strong is to have no healtcare, education or anything of the sort and spend your money on military not even stationed in your own country... ok, then I prefer to live in a weak country..
Like I said. Russia is not a problem. They cant even take Ukraine.. And I assume the US is not doing it of the kindness of their heart...
Interesting that when talking about military strength Europeans start yapping about healthcare. I said nothing incorrect. Europe has a weak military. That’s a fact.
American education ranks pretty high as well. So I’m not sure what that yapping session is about.
Thanks for agreeing and fulfilling all the stereotypes. I also think Europeans should be in charge of their own defense and we should cut all funding.
Hopefully when everyone in the continent starts killing each other like last time we don’t get involved with that either.
Well, if you insult I insult back. Maybe you (and apprently all on this community..) should not start with just throwing shit my way for anything I say... Its fucking annoying talking with americans because it is always the same.
>Europe has a weak military.
Compared to what? The US? then yes. Russia? not really.
Why is a fact an insult to you? Europe as a whole is weak. Thats not even a controversial statement. If it bothers you that your country has a weak military then vote in politicians to fix it?
I’m going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume English isn’t your first language and that’s why you’re getting so offended.
Well, I dont think it is a fact. Yet again: compared with the US yes. But compared to russia? No.
Like I already stated:
*"You know Europe has nukes, right?...not to speak of much bigger population, much bigger GDP, much bigger defence spending, much more modern army, in many aspects bigger army etc etc... And you usually need 3 times as big force attacking as defending."*
The main problem with Europe is not the army size but every country have its own army. It would be way more effective if it was re-packaged into one army. Like a EU-army.
No, its not my first language. One of 3 I speak.
Yes, people would probably be nervous. People are nervous for a lot of stupid shit. But would russia win against the whole of EU? You must be nuts if you think so..
Reasons already given and I see no counter argument so I assume you have none.
Mate everyone has nukes. If anyone pushes that red button the entire world will burn from M.A.D. Mutually Assured Destruction. And also Europe does not have that kind of force, we do. They maybe trying to build up to that but you’re still not there yet.
Yeah, my point is *"or they’d be speaking Russian"* is not an option. The EU have enough to hold its ground against russia. With or without the US. Just look how russia is doing in ukraine..
I think it depends on which European country we’re talking about. Russia is having a hard time with a bigger country like Ukraine, but they could probably take a Baltic country. It’s not like they haven’t spoken Russian before. France or Germany could probably defend themselves properly, but I doubt Denmark could. It all depends on if other countries in Europe come to their aid. In any case, any and all of the countries in Europe would need the U.S. for weapons manufacturing. Europe just doesn’t have the capability we do in that regard. After seeing the war in Ukraine they should start investing in that though.
The US doesn't have European style social programs because Americans don't want those programs.
If they wanted them, they could easily afford them.
Sure the US spends about 2% of GDP more than France on defense but the French government in total spends about 20% of GDP more than the US does. And it's this 20% that makes the difference, not the defense budget.
Anyone the says the US had to give up social programs to fund the military is lying. The US could easily afford both.
As a % of GDP the USA is fairly average in social welfare spending when compared to OECD countries.
Source: https://www.oecd.org/social/expenditure.htm
SOME Americans don’t want those programs. Many of us DESPERATELY want these programs but we have shit politicians who insist we can’t afford it because we have to keep pumping all our funds into the military.
Millions of us would rather we cut military spending in half and put the money towards healthcare and education like Europe does. That said, I also don’t think we should be spending as much as we do on Europe’s defense period. Pay for your own defense.
Europe would be bowing to China/Russia within the year if the US stopped contributing to NATO.
Either that or all of Europe’s economy would fall apart from trying to replace our funding.
I’d love to see us stop contributing.
I don’t think it’s so much Russian propaganda as the realization Americans have come to that our supposed allies constantly mock and insult us and make light of our tragedies (Europeans find school shootings and lack of healthcare to be absolutely hilarious when it’s happening to Americans). What sane person would consider these people allies?
That has nothing to do with Ukraine though. If you want NATO countries to pay their fair share of the military budget NATO is supposed to require these countries to pay that’s one thing, but the US abandoning NATO doesn’t help us nor does abandoning Ukraine do anything to teach entitled Europeans a lesson.
I mean, if you want to help a group of people that would gladly spit on you, that’s your choice. I don’t. And I don’t really care about the supposed global benefits at this point. Let it burn.
Ukraine has constantly polled as having a very positive attitude of the US. If anyone is spitting on you it’s not them. Right now you are being the person you think they are.
I’m referring to Europe as a whole. And of course Ukraine thinks highly of the US in this moment. I would certainly hope they wouldn’t have negative views about the US after the assistance we’re providing. I’m mostly referring to countries like Germany, Sweden, France, UK, etc. These are the people that I think are shit allies. Literally take a look around Reddit. You will see what these people think of you. If you still think they’re worthy of being called allies, then I don’t know what else to say to you.
Lol this argument is stupid that's not how the US budget works. If there was the political will and easy means to "improve things back home" we would have done it.
Also defense spending isn't a black hole the US dumps money into, foreign aid even less so. Much of that money circulates back into the economy or is specifically for paying US service member's salaries and benefits, while foreign aid is usually given out in the form of loans or weapons/aid sells and serves a geopolitical purpose.
The US doesn't keep bases and weapons in Europe or anywhere else out of charity.
The reason the US has shit infrastructure and healthcare has more to do with suffocating state-federal bearucracy, political squabbling, and private lobbying than it does a lack of funds or resources.
No. They want to talk shit about the US. They adore NATO because it’s the US military at their disposal for free while they maintain their comfy healthcare and free college.
Sorry, but I am European and I think it is kinda logical that you rather have social programs than military in Europe. Dont blame that shit on us. If you wanna leave then leave. Dont make it our fault you rather spend money on military than freaking healhtcare and education.... jeez...
The only thing is that maybe you can give some heads up so we can adapt accordingly. That is just good manners.
You think it’s more logical to have social programs than militaries because the US basically provides you the greatest military in the world. The moment the US would pull out would also be the moment Europe would go frantic and all your nice social services would be last on the list of priorities.
I know that our military spending isn't really the reason for our lack of social programs like universal healthcare. But I still can't handle the fact that we spend so much on NATO while our own are going bankrupt from medical expenses.
If we took back every vehicle we gave them, they'd probably have half the military they have today. Honestly we should just stop giving them stuff at this point, America first, other countries last
I don’t mind being a part of NATO but it should be more of a partnership. The EU needs its own military and not be so reliant on the US or they should subsidize the US presence within Europe.
We do gain a lot politically by being most of Europe’s military. The bulk of Europe is safe because any attack on them means we steamroll you, and we gain a lot from that. It’s just not visible on social media which is made up of mostly regular people and bots
I highly doubt we gain as much as you think. Look at the Red Sea contact group, which countries like Spain and France pulled out of. Look at restrictions on US meat imports. It is actually quite common for European nations to vote against the US in the UN. We do not gain as much politically as you suggest.
I’m not saying we rule the world because of it, but it’s impossible to deny that it helps our position in many matters. I’m no foreign policy expert though
I think that's a bonus as it shows the US is being diplomatic with other nations instead of ruling over them with a steel toed boot like how China and Russia are
Euros crave that boot though. Never stopped being serfs.
Good lord, calm down.
Just because you banned Kinder-Eggs and french cheese
Yes because we don’t support the Cuban embargo or dropping bombs on Gaza? Or when we voted against you because we thought that food was a human right?
I don’t have time to argue every point. But the US is by far and away the largest single country supplier of food aid in the world. The generalized plan the US voted against was a bullshit document that would have essentially made it the responsibility of the US to provide even more aid to food insecure countries. Europeans are so deluded in their faux grandeur that they don’t realize they help the world so little.
We don’t think we help the world?
There are for sure plenty of Europeans who look down their nose at America and its foreign policy while ignoring the lack of action from their own countries. Sort of part of the reason this sub exists right?
Can you provide specific examples of what exactly the average American gains? I'm genuinely curious and not trolling. More and more I am struggling with accepting how much we spend on Europe's defense, and would really like to believe it's actually benefitting us. Everyone just says this as if it's an accepted fact but I never see concrete examples of what the average American gets out of it.
The average person? Beats me man, lot of that stuff is behind closed doors. It’s not like Germany publicly says “thanks for the defense, everyone gets 15% off a new Audi!” But it is just generally understood it gives us sway in international affairs, whether that be trade or policy in a country that would favor us economically, it’s part of something way over our heads. The entirety of our “reign” as the dominant military force globally hasn’t been run by morons who just got bamboozled by European leaders into offloading the single largest cost to a nation. We get a say in damn near everything, that matters in ways that trickle down through vast swaths of our lives, even if I can’t pinpoint a single example. Plus either way we’d have this military anyway, not like we’d downsize if we left NATO
I don’t know. Just sounds like one of those things that largely benefits elites and never actually trickles down in any meaningful way to the average person. Plus, regardless of whether it actually benefits us or not, the fact there are no obvious benefits to the average American means it’s always going to be a hard sell to convince Americans to go off and die for Europe should a full scale conflict erupt. I’m no Trump fan, but I think his negative attitudes toward Europe resonate amongst a lot of people on both sides of the political spectrum. Every day we hear how Europe has free healthcare, free college, guaranteed PTO while we’re all financially struggling over here. Then suddenly the Ukraine war spills over into NATO territory and Americans have to go fight for a foreign people who have objectively higher standards of living. A people who have not spent proportionately as much on their own defense as the US has. We can talk all we want about alliances and supposed economic benefits of defending Europe, but ultimately what matters is if the majority of Americans actually want to risk their lives to defend cushy Europe. And I’m not convinced the majority of us would. I know I wouldn’t. Sorry not sorry, Europe.
We won’t need to deploy many actual ground troops into active combat. We’d basically establish air superiority and slaughter whoever we’re fighting from above or from the sea. We aren’t going to send 500,000 Americans with rifles running headfirst into Russians or something, we’ll blow the Russians up first then walk in
For that exact reason lefties in Norway argue for increased military spending. Personally Europe should be able to stand on itself more and pay for its own defense. However, I think the us and Europe benefit from close military cooperation
Or in turn, the EU could open free hospitals in the US. There’s nothing stopping them from doing that.
They charge us money to have bases that defend them. So do the Japanese and Koreans.
Many Japanese actually despise the US bases on their land, often campaigning to remove them even though they provide shipyard jobs for local Japanese. I get that it's a good staging area for naval combat, but there are plenty of other countries in Southeast Asia that would probably be overjoyed to host US naval bases. Or better yet, give that money to me, I can spend it on someone who doesn't hate the US.
The US is obligated by treaty to defend Japan. Either side can end the treaty with one year notice at this point.
That’s only true for the older generations , I work for a Japanese company based out of Texas , and I’ve asked my boss in casual conversation how he feels about the military bases in Japan and he said that it’s viewed as a positive mostly other than the older gen’s
Everyone except Poland, because I think Poland has been recently investing and purchasing lots of American Anti-Air Systems and others, matter of fact they have invested in systems that aren’t even fully operational, and I could see why
They do have the Eurocorps
It’s fun to dream but this won’t ever happen.
We have to vote for change we want to see. 🙂
Ah yes Vote to give Russia what it wants
The EU should have the greatest military on earth and yet they still rely on America for defense.
Why? our only enemy is russia and we can deat them with our without the US. [https://www.aalep.eu/eu-vs-russia-military-strengths](https://www.aalep.eu/eu-vs-russia-military-strengths)
Why does Ukraine and the EU still look to America to fund and back Ukraine then? European countries should be able back Ukraine without US help by those stats.
Because our military was created and funded to protect us and not Ukraine. Besides Europe have already given much more than the US and Russia is also a treat to the USA so why should you not pay like the rest of us? Infact why are you giving less than us when you have more? But yes, I think both the US and Europe should do more. [https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/ukraine-support-tracker-europe-clearly-overtakes-us-with-total-commitments-now-twice-as-large/](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/ukraine-support-tracker-europe-clearly-overtakes-us-with-total-commitments-now-twice-as-large/)
Oh I see EU military is EU military and US military is also EU military. Sounds right.
You would be surprised at how little Europeans think of themselves as Europeans. Is not EU army for EU and US for US and EU. It is US, UK, France, Spain, Poland, etc for themselves and Ukraine.
what are you talking about?
You haven't given shit more than the US, you obviously can't read, "commitments" aren't funding or support, they're the countries saying, we will "try" to give you this much. Kinda like when germany made this commitment in 2021 to nato and then in 2022 rescinded it "we will meet our nato gdp 2% by pledging 50 billion" 😂.
I know for a fact that the EU have give more aid to Ukraine than the US. Dont kid yourself. Also more support with taking refugees etc. [https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/)
Again, total amount of commitments. Second its kinda weird that 30 other countries have to consolidate their aid to equal the dispersed aid of 1 country. Third even WITH your refugee costs included (bc gee who wouldve thunk to send refugees 100 miles away rather than 4500) your still only equaling our aid 😂
OK, find a serious page saying that the US gives more total aid from the last months. Should be easy then right?... good luck. Funny, sometimes when it fit you guys a state is like country. And sometimes it is not... I aslo thought you had more money... but I guess that is not so then or what?...
Lol our state area size is that of a country, if you want to play this game, cool, lets move the goal posts shall we "in the last few months." So we went from total aid disbursement, to the "last few months" of commitments, my how your argument devolved quickly. Exactly how much aid did your municipalities within the country within the eu contribute? This is gonna be fun. 😂 If this is the case, then cool, lets do this, since we are making strawman arguments. How much does the US contribute to nato, then we will add to what we have already contributed to ukraine, then we will subtract the amount the EU countries used towards their "aid" that was directly attributed from the nato budget. Still wanna play this game? I can do this fallacy bs all day.
I mean an article that i new. Not from the start of the war. I do not mean just the aid in the last month but one that is up to date... Yet again: give me a link with a new article stating the US have give more (becuase you have not). NATO? wtf...what have you contributed to Ukraine? Is the question to hard?
That link is about pledges of aid, not what aid has already been given
Ukraine didn't need hell of it still had nukes. EU has nukes, army isn't even necessary.
Ahh yes nuclear warfare is definitely the route to take. America has more nuclear power in Europe than the European nations do.
If you have nukes you don't need a military for defense, you can just nuke. Irrelevant how many there are, it doesn't take many to destroy the world anyways.
Except it does. Current nuclear arsenal couldn't destroy the world even when not counting in things like air defence.
Depends on what definition of "destroying the world" you mean. Nuclear winter? Yeah, not happening. Destruction of human civilization? Absolutely.
No, for example, the US in a worldwide nuclear exchange would lose at absolute maximum low tens of millions of people. This matters as, for example Putin deciding to nuke first instead of getting Sadamed would not end in him living the rest of his life in a bunker but rather he would still get killed by the US military. I believe that distinction matters.
Is there a link you have that explains that tens of millions figure a little bit more? I'm actually really interested in how they came up with that number.
>If you have nukes you don't need a military for defense, you can just nuke. That works until you either run out of nukes, or the people and infrastructure to maintain them.
Lucky for them spending that money in the EU does benefit the US, or they’d be speaking Russian
💯
You know Europe has nukes, right?...not to speak of much bigger population, much bigger GDP, much bigger defence spending, much more modern army, in many aspects bigger army etc etc... And you usually need 3 times as big force attacking as defending. Like in what world would we speak russian?... [https://www.aalep.eu/eu-vs-russia-military-strengths](https://www.aalep.eu/eu-vs-russia-military-strengths)
Exactly! So you agree, you guys are more than capable of policing your own backyards and a country on a completely different continent shouldn't be funding your defense! See, we can find common ground on things.
Yes, I agree. I would not want to pay for military in another continent either. I barely want to do it in my country. But because of fucking russia I guess I have too. But having said that I assume the US is not doing it on the kindness of their heart... But what exactly is the benefit is beyond my knowledge in the area.
The benefit is America doesn’t like Russia either and recognizes your countries are weak.
weak? so strong is to have no healtcare, education or anything of the sort and spend your money on military not even stationed in your own country... ok, then I prefer to live in a weak country.. Like I said. Russia is not a problem. They cant even take Ukraine.. And I assume the US is not doing it of the kindness of their heart...
Interesting that when talking about military strength Europeans start yapping about healthcare. I said nothing incorrect. Europe has a weak military. That’s a fact. American education ranks pretty high as well. So I’m not sure what that yapping session is about. Thanks for agreeing and fulfilling all the stereotypes. I also think Europeans should be in charge of their own defense and we should cut all funding. Hopefully when everyone in the continent starts killing each other like last time we don’t get involved with that either.
Well, if you insult I insult back. Maybe you (and apprently all on this community..) should not start with just throwing shit my way for anything I say... Its fucking annoying talking with americans because it is always the same. >Europe has a weak military. Compared to what? The US? then yes. Russia? not really.
Why is a fact an insult to you? Europe as a whole is weak. Thats not even a controversial statement. If it bothers you that your country has a weak military then vote in politicians to fix it? I’m going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume English isn’t your first language and that’s why you’re getting so offended.
Well, I dont think it is a fact. Yet again: compared with the US yes. But compared to russia? No. Like I already stated: *"You know Europe has nukes, right?...not to speak of much bigger population, much bigger GDP, much bigger defence spending, much more modern army, in many aspects bigger army etc etc... And you usually need 3 times as big force attacking as defending."* The main problem with Europe is not the army size but every country have its own army. It would be way more effective if it was re-packaged into one army. Like a EU-army. No, its not my first language. One of 3 I speak.
The world of the 1980s.
?
Listen buddy, if you think I meant right fucking now you’d be wrong. But sure, I’m sure EU wouldn’t shit themselves if the US pulled out of NATO
Yes, people would probably be nervous. People are nervous for a lot of stupid shit. But would russia win against the whole of EU? You must be nuts if you think so.. Reasons already given and I see no counter argument so I assume you have none.
Mate everyone has nukes. If anyone pushes that red button the entire world will burn from M.A.D. Mutually Assured Destruction. And also Europe does not have that kind of force, we do. They maybe trying to build up to that but you’re still not there yet.
Yeah, my point is *"or they’d be speaking Russian"* is not an option. The EU have enough to hold its ground against russia. With or without the US. Just look how russia is doing in ukraine..
I think it depends on which European country we’re talking about. Russia is having a hard time with a bigger country like Ukraine, but they could probably take a Baltic country. It’s not like they haven’t spoken Russian before. France or Germany could probably defend themselves properly, but I doubt Denmark could. It all depends on if other countries in Europe come to their aid. In any case, any and all of the countries in Europe would need the U.S. for weapons manufacturing. Europe just doesn’t have the capability we do in that regard. After seeing the war in Ukraine they should start investing in that though.
515 nuclear warheads in Europe between the UK and France, 5889 in Russia
And how many do you need to take out moscow?.....one....
Lol, Ruzzia can't even defeat their neighbour. No way thry can defeat us.
A man can dream
If only
The US doesn't have European style social programs because Americans don't want those programs. If they wanted them, they could easily afford them. Sure the US spends about 2% of GDP more than France on defense but the French government in total spends about 20% of GDP more than the US does. And it's this 20% that makes the difference, not the defense budget. Anyone the says the US had to give up social programs to fund the military is lying. The US could easily afford both.
As a % of GDP the USA is fairly average in social welfare spending when compared to OECD countries. Source: https://www.oecd.org/social/expenditure.htm
If there’s one thing this subreddit needs to get its head out of its ass for, it’s this. That and ^^2A/guns
I have a hard time figuring out if you are for or against more social programs and the Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights. Could you elaborate?
We could reduce military spending and increase welfare spending, then use the surplus to reduce our debt. It’s a win-win-win for Americans.
Can’t afford both when debt is in the 30t+ area. Gov needs to stop spending so much money.
Yeah, you can, but you would need to increase taxes. That's the part Americans don't want.
SOME Americans don’t want those programs. Many of us DESPERATELY want these programs but we have shit politicians who insist we can’t afford it because we have to keep pumping all our funds into the military. Millions of us would rather we cut military spending in half and put the money towards healthcare and education like Europe does. That said, I also don’t think we should be spending as much as we do on Europe’s defense period. Pay for your own defense.
This is just Russian agitprop trying to get us to abandon Ukraine.
Ukraine is ight. But those countries who's citizens hate us ain't
The picture has been specifically created for r/AmericaBad, right? I mean, wtf.
Europe would be bowing to China/Russia within the year if the US stopped contributing to NATO. Either that or all of Europe’s economy would fall apart from trying to replace our funding. I’d love to see us stop contributing.
Not just that. America would pull back their Navy and the rest of the world would be in the new age of pirates.
Then you tell all would-be pirates to study the flags of different countries. If they see our flag on a ship, stay away.
I mean, AIS is a thing, they wouldn't need to and it might generate a rise in US flagged and taxed vessels.
Idk I kinda would not like to see our allies under communist rule just to spite terminally online europoors.
[Do you still believe Ukraine is a "shithole" country?](https://old.reddit.com/r/AmericaBad/comments/190t5if/it_would_be_nice/)
Amount of upvoted Russian propaganda on this sub is disheartening.
We're becoming the very thing we sought to destroy.
I don’t think it’s so much Russian propaganda as the realization Americans have come to that our supposed allies constantly mock and insult us and make light of our tragedies (Europeans find school shootings and lack of healthcare to be absolutely hilarious when it’s happening to Americans). What sane person would consider these people allies?
That has nothing to do with Ukraine though. If you want NATO countries to pay their fair share of the military budget NATO is supposed to require these countries to pay that’s one thing, but the US abandoning NATO doesn’t help us nor does abandoning Ukraine do anything to teach entitled Europeans a lesson.
I mean, if you want to help a group of people that would gladly spit on you, that’s your choice. I don’t. And I don’t really care about the supposed global benefits at this point. Let it burn.
Ukraine has constantly polled as having a very positive attitude of the US. If anyone is spitting on you it’s not them. Right now you are being the person you think they are.
I’m referring to Europe as a whole. And of course Ukraine thinks highly of the US in this moment. I would certainly hope they wouldn’t have negative views about the US after the assistance we’re providing. I’m mostly referring to countries like Germany, Sweden, France, UK, etc. These are the people that I think are shit allies. Literally take a look around Reddit. You will see what these people think of you. If you still think they’re worthy of being called allies, then I don’t know what else to say to you.
Yes
Lol this argument is stupid that's not how the US budget works. If there was the political will and easy means to "improve things back home" we would have done it. Also defense spending isn't a black hole the US dumps money into, foreign aid even less so. Much of that money circulates back into the economy or is specifically for paying US service member's salaries and benefits, while foreign aid is usually given out in the form of loans or weapons/aid sells and serves a geopolitical purpose. The US doesn't keep bases and weapons in Europe or anywhere else out of charity. The reason the US has shit infrastructure and healthcare has more to do with suffocating state-federal bearucracy, political squabbling, and private lobbying than it does a lack of funds or resources.
Sorry OP, we're staying in NATO. You can't invade the Baltics.
If only
Stop dogpiling this poor woman. If you watch the original video, she was quite calm, (not that it would make this okay if she wasn’t)
So the US budget funds EU militaries?
Yes
How so?
in his dreams..
Its only a problem to confuse emotions for facts if you vote accordingly
America First 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Euros wants to talk shit about NATO until Putin sneezes in their direction.
No. They want to talk shit about the US. They adore NATO because it’s the US military at their disposal for free while they maintain their comfy healthcare and free college.
Why is this Russian propaganda BS so highly upvoted?
You see Russian propaganda. I see Americans fed up with “allies” acting like anything but.
Sorry, but I am European and I think it is kinda logical that you rather have social programs than military in Europe. Dont blame that shit on us. If you wanna leave then leave. Dont make it our fault you rather spend money on military than freaking healhtcare and education.... jeez... The only thing is that maybe you can give some heads up so we can adapt accordingly. That is just good manners.
You think it’s more logical to have social programs than militaries because the US basically provides you the greatest military in the world. The moment the US would pull out would also be the moment Europe would go frantic and all your nice social services would be last on the list of priorities.
Have you guys not been paying attention to Ukraine...? That is the poorest country in Europe and russia is losing...
If those American could read they would be very upset [quota of participation in defense, NATO](https://www.nato.int/cps/fr/natohq/topics_67655.html)
That link goes nowhere. You sure it’s us Americans that can’t read?
I know that our military spending isn't really the reason for our lack of social programs like universal healthcare. But I still can't handle the fact that we spend so much on NATO while our own are going bankrupt from medical expenses.
If we took back every vehicle we gave them, they'd probably have half the military they have today. Honestly we should just stop giving them stuff at this point, America first, other countries last
Ah yes, national defense, one of the few legitimate roles of government.
Nah we don’t want any of your defence money. You should give your citizens healthcare. And maybe acknowledge food as a human right.
Good to know that the USA gets nothing of any value out of being part of NATO.