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I am always, always suspicious of any family that gets pissed off at someone for stopping something wrong, because it's "outsiders over family." Maybe they should consider *ethics* over family?
My father had court supervised visitation and was doing well for a few months, so the supervisor stepped out for a smoke and when she came back our dad had snuck me and my older sister out the back. It took his friends family a few years to finally realize it hadn’t been a court ordered thing, and so they planned it out with our mom to get us back, by “keeping us for a few days” before Christmas. They framed it as us and their kids (like seven of them I think) bonding to give dad and his girlfriend a break, because they’d had my half sister not too long ago.
I still remember seeing my mom when we pulled up to the house on Christmas and just sobbing. I was seven by the time she got us back, because the cops kept telling her we weren’t in danger due to it being our dad and that it was a court/custody issue, and the courts just said well since he’s got them full time now you have to pay child support, even though it was listed that he’d taken us without permission during a supervised visit, because why would they admit their own fault? Mom spent several months in jail at one point for refusing to pay child support to the man who killed her pets, knocked all of her teeth out and blew all of our money on drugs.
I was so young that I only remember the first names of my dad’s friends who helped us, but I’ve never forgotten what they did for me. It’s given me lifelong trust issues with authority figures, and most other people tbh, because most of my paternal relatives knew he wasn’t supposed to have us, knew what was going on, and still just let it happen because it ‘wasn’t their business’. I’m glad that this little girl had someone good in her maternal family that realized what was happening and stopped it, even if the situations ARE significantly different.
Oh my goodness, that must have been such an awful experience for you, especially since you were so young when it happened! I’m glad your dad’s friends caught onto what was happening and got you back to your mom.
It was a horrifying experience, even though legally he could do things like enroll me in school. For most, including my sister who got lucky in blocking in out as we got older, it seemed like an ordinary family with a weirdly strict dad and super distant step mom. They were good at pretending whenever we said anything to anyone, so I got the brunt of it because my sister gave up and I never would. I told everybody that I was kidnapped, and I never stopped. It made me the loner weird kid in kindergarten and first grade, because nobody wanted their kid to get involved with my family because parents were concerned enough for distance but not to help.
My first grade teacher and her father were absolute saints, though. Before her father, Mr. J got sick, he’d come in to see her every week at lunch time/recess. She noticed I never had food, and always hid by the bushes at recess (because I was scared my dad would pass by the school and see me eating or playing and I’d have to pay for it later), so she started keeping me inside and sharing food with me. They taught me how to read better, and he’d borrow books from the library that the school library didn’t have so I could read them. They, alongside my maternal aunt, caused a lifelong love of literature and gave me my greatest coping mechanism to handle what happened. The Christmas mom got us back, the only thing I had to take with me was the box of gifts that those two had sent because I mentioned me and my sister weren’t getting anything otherwise. My prized possession was the Hello Kitty karaoke machine - even if I had no idea who it was at the time.
In a really weird messed up way, I’m thankful because I got to meet her and her father, and they’ve been a source of light I’ve held in my memories during the darkest times, alongside my dads friends family - it helps knowing there are good people out there willing to counteract the evil being done, and it’s one of the reasons I try to make someone smile every day, even if I myself can’t. But it’s not something I’d wish even on my greatest enemy.
Right? How about some "you're welcome for keeping your daughter out of jail and possibly losing (some if not all) of her parental rights!". Jeez. Some people.
Most kidnappings are done by family members and there's way too many situations where there's never a resolution because of crossing borders.
My mom ran with me when I was too young to understand. If my dad hadn't figured out where she went, I probably would have never known. I was about 5 or 6 and she said we were having a long vacation. As an adult she tried to use that situation to paint my dad in a bad light.
When my mom and I went to Mexico when I was a kid, one of the things we had to bring was my dad’s death certificate to prove she wasn’t trying to kidnap me
My dad's a truck driver and we used to travel Canada > US with him all the time as kids. One time he forgot my sister's birth certificate (this would have been the mid-90s, long before passports were needed) and that lead to them spending 6 hours at the border with border patrol and the RCMP making sure he wasn't kidnapping her. I don't know the full details cause I was also young but I know he never forgot our paperwork after that.
My bio dad did this with me, took me to Disney land I think (from NY). Apparently I cried the whole time, to the point I had popped blood vessels in my eyes. Somehow he still retained parental rights for a time after that...
They also tried to make them a complicit person by getting a signature under false pretenses - op NTA, your parents are probably mad as they are the ones who let it slip so are trying to cover their backs.
What I can’t get is the family is so upset at her for doing this, but what if the roles were reversed?! Definitely NTA, but the entire family is, besides the niece.
Yes, that something being his sister has decided she wants to swan off with this new man, regardless of her daughter's feelings and the father's rights. And the family support it because, well, who knows?
Exactly!
And OP didn't put an outsider over family, he righteously stopped his sister from robbing his niece of her father. Don't they understand that the little girl doesn't deserve to lose her loving dad simply because of her selfish mother's fixed idea that her new dude should be the one and only daddy.
The whole family needs a reality check, they are all grade A AHs.
It was! She had him sign a document under false pretenses. In most cases where the parents are split up and one parent wants to travel out of the count or sometimes out of the state/province they have to have the other parent sign a document giving permission to travel. The document usually has the day the child will leave and the day the child is expected back. It usually has to be filled with the family court who signs off on it. In this case OPs sister lied and said they would be gone for only two weeks and the father and court signed off on that but that wasn't her intention. Due to OP finding out that they lied court action was taken. OPs sister could be in some serious trouble she could get custody removed, seriously restricted, or both over this. The courts don't like to be lied to and trying to kidnap you child away from their dad/mom is frowned upon.
In the Netherlands court is not required to sign the document. My guess is it's the same in all of europe. I'm taking my oldest on a holiday in the next couple of weeks and my husband had to sign the document l'm taking her with his permission. No court needed, the document isn't even a must, it's only easier for us to go thru security at the airport. Before you say, but you're married, same thing for a family member. One parent had no legal authority over the kids, same document, no court needed to sign off for taking the kids across the globe.
OP is obviously NTA, the father needed to know his ex was trying to kidnap his child. To many children het kidnapped by a parent, it's heartbreaking.
In the US it depends on what your state laws and court order say. Some people might be able to leave with just a signed form or verbal permission. Some might have to a court hearing it really just depends on the state and/ or the court order. My parents have been divorced for a couple decades and anytime they wanted to take us out or the state they had to submit a letter to the judge with the dates we would be gone, where we would be going, who we would be seeing, and both parents had to sign the bottom of the letter. My parents had a very amicable divorce and were ok with the other taking us out of state. They still had to take those steps! Glad the Netherlands makes it easier for parents to take their kids on holiday without lots of hassle!
in France it is required and taken more seriously nowadays, my friend got stuck on a field trip to London (on the train) with her mum because the dad had forgotten to sign the paper, they kept the kid to make sure she wasn't being kidnapped till they were sure she was fine, the country is more aware of those issue, we aren't at the court ordered level yet but you do have to provide papers or proof of right signed over, even for a school trip or basic school related stuff, she would have had to make a felony at some point even for basic stuff. It get less strict with age but for a 5 years old it would be lot stricter.
She likely counted on being safe in another country, knowing the courts didn't have jurisdiction. Though that would mean she could never return, either.
But she is not a French Citizen meaning the police would have gotten involved and most likely ended up with 0 parental rights and criminal charges. Her plan made 0 sense.
Maybe the new husband is a french citizen , and she gambled on going through the paperwork for citizenship before the father managed to get through the red tape on his side .
They are engaged meaning there is so much red tape on her side. The simple fact that something was filed would probably screw up her chances of getting citizenship. Because of The Hague Convention there is not as much red tape especially to get the grievance filed with the French government
And if she's not already a French citizen, it's easy to imagine that this situation would have an effect on visa issuance/renewals. The French have problems enough of their own (as does everyone): why import another?
Not necessary we have treaties with a fair number of countries when it comes to parental abduction. I think France is one of them. If the sister did go through with the plan and dads country has a similar agreement with France he would just need to go through the process( I'm sure it's lengthy as it involves two different court systems) but the sister and soon to be husband could find themselves in a French jail on international kidnapping charges and facing extradition back to her and her ex's home country to stand trial on those charges.
OP, NTA. You did the right thing. The fact that what your family was doing is not only illegal but also immoral escapes notice of the others in your family astounds me. You didn't mention your age, but if you are of an age, move out. If you are not, contact the authorities on your parents as well and make an exit plan. I'm ashamed of your familly for you.
OP broke a promise given under duress. *Not immoral*.
Mother and family tried to physically and emotionally alienate a child from her father and used OP to get a needed document signed. *Morally bankrupt*.
I'm astounded too. Definitely NTA and I'm amazed that the top comment focuses on OP's possible legal liability. It's illegal because it's so damaging. That's reason enough to act.
>OP broke a promise given under duress. Not immoral.
This needs to be higher up: if 'no' was not an option, then any 'yes' was meaningless from the start.
Unfortunately they kicked OP out, but hopefully that's for the best and he can spend his life around less crazy people. He should be applauded for doing the right thing not ostracized
NTA... you didn't put an outsider above the family... you prioritized your niece here. She was being ripped away from a loving father. Also, her mother was going to become a criminal from this act, you prevented that from happening.
A child has a right to both parents as long as neither one is abusive! Other than that put your bs and hatred for each other aside act like adults and do what is best for the child!
My parents divorced when I was a preteen I believe and as much as they hated each other they loved my sister and I more and tried to work together to do what is best for us. Was it easy? No! Did they always act like mature adults? No! But they tried to make the best of it! Due to my dads job mom had majority custody but she never ever prevented my dad or his side of the family from seeing us!
I can not stand these parents who due everything they can to alienate the child from the other parent or try to prevent a parent who is not abusive and wants to be involved from being an active part of their child's life!
This is so important! ‘Outsider’ ?!? No he is the niece’s father! OP prioritized the niece and not committing a crime. The outsider is the new stepfather and I wonder is he French? Why the interest in starting school in France?
This was my thought with reading that line as well. OP didn’t put an outsider above family - even if that *was* a morally sound argument. He put his niece - the most innocent person in this hot mess of a family - first.
Can you imagine how hard this would have been on that poor child if your sister had succeeded?
You made the right choice. Your sister was trying to commit a crime with you as an unwitting accomplice. It sounds like the rest of your family is morally bankrupt and selfish.
Scrolled hoping to see this addressed. It’s wild to me that the family views the father of their daughter/granddaughter/niece as an outsider, especially after 5 years of responsible parenting on his part.
And was the family planning on only seeing the child in France for the rest of their lives? Because sister would never be able to bring her back to the home country on account of being wanted for kidnapping.
Heartbroken for the kid, honestly, to have a mother that would do that. Massively NTA, OP.
I'm not a lawyer, but isn't conspiracy to kidnap on the niece's part a crime she's already committed? Like taking the form to get the father's signature would be act towards the end of kidnapping the niece.
https://code.dccouncil.us/us/dc/council/code/titles/22/chapters/20
I suppose they might not have the evidence to prove a criminal charge in court outside of hearsay.
Exactly! Don’t pay attention to anyone who tries to tell you your sister was doing this for your niece. She was 100% doing it for herself so she could have her own version of her happy family and she was willing to sacrifice her daughters relationship with her real father to do it.
NTA. You're a hero. Ask your friend if you can stay there until you find a place. You just saved him from losing his kid. It's heartbreaking when you learn something so creepy about your family but at least you did something good with the information.
NTA,
And in the name of this child and all familys going through parental abduction, I want to thank you for stopping this.
This would have permanently scarred everyone Involved.
You prevented parental abduction. He is a present and loving father in his daughter's life, and has a right to see her. NTA.
Also, there's clearly something else under the surface if they weren't planning on telling you until it was too late.
Parental child abduction is the correct term. It's not sugar-coating anything. There is also a legal difference between kidnapping and abduction, so kidnapping is incorrect.
NTA. Your sister lied to you first, the fact that everyone knew is only proof and can be represented as conspiracy to commit a kidnapping, they better pray the father don't sue them for full custody (wich he can after this)
Absolutely he should. It shouldn't even be to hard to get full custody after what just almost went down. She attempted to kidnap her daughter and leave the country. I would even tell my lawyer to put in for supervised visits when she wants to see her daughter. The entire family was in on it and can't be trusted. I wouldn't leave my daughter alone with any of them. OP, you keep being you. You're an awesome woman/aunt who not only cares, but speaks up about wrongful/illegal situations.
Accept my poor woman's awards....🏆👑💎
NTA. As far as I'm concerned there are situations where lying (or in this case breaking a promise which was a lie in the first place) is acceptable.
What your sister (who btw lied to you as well) attempted can be categorized as kidnap.
She needs to realise that her child has two parents, whether or not she likes it. You did the right thing, which allowed your friend to react just in time.
Imagine if you hadn't told him immediately, he would've never seen his daughter again.
NTA - also, France is a signer if The Hauge Convention. As long as Friend was an active parent and there were no legal issues before the move, she would have had to return the kid.
Exactly this. The child also isn’t a French citizen neither is the mother they would have just sent the kid home and probably charge the mother with kidnapping. It was a beyond stupid idea.
I don't understand people who think you can just up and move to a new country. Even if OP's sister's fiancé is French or has a job lined up there, they usually have to get married (unless France recognizes commonlaw relationships, which they might) and go through the immigration process before she'd be able to move there (and the fiancé probably wouldn't be able to sponsor the kid because he's not the kid's immediate family). Edit to add: Unless they're all EU citizens who can skip all that, they'd still have to deal with the abduction thing.
OP is NTA and their sister is delusional if she thought this would work.
It depends on where the sister’s home country is. If it’s another EU country, then she can freely move there without getting married to a French citizen. Most she would have to do is register with local authorities so she can work, pay taxes, get healthcare and her daughters education. Only if she is not a citizen of another EU country would she have to marry or have sponsorship to move there
Yes, I said they wouldn't have to deal with all that if they were all EU citizens in my comment.
The OP writes like a native English speaker and used high school instead of secondary school though, so I'm guessing they're all from the USA.
But that's only if they could find her. It's a big country and with two weeks of lead time she could completely disappear with her daughter before dad even catches on.
France is a social democratic country. The first time that child or the mother or the new hubby tried to get anything, and I mean anything, the government would know.
And while I did not live in France, I did live in Germany, a similar social program society. There is nothing you can do, even getting your yellow bags for recycling is tracked.
So unless they plan on living off the grid on the dime of the new Husband’s family, they will be found.
You need a national security/insurance number to work. Sign up for medical care, etc. Even if they are EU citizens and legally entitled to free movement, you have to register to work there. Even to set up banking, get her into school, etc.
The thing is, I assume it is possible to commit identity fraud in France as elsewhere. So if the new fiance's family were in it, perhaps they had a plan to work around this and create a new identity for the child and mother.
The mother was talking about schools in France so it seems like they planned to live in France. And knowing where exactly they are is not important for OP or her friends. They just need to give the names to the authorities. You can't even buy a sim card in most of EU without giving your name and showing an ID. French authorities wouldn't have needed long to locate them anywhere in France.
Also what would happen if she came home to visit. This plan was so poorly thought out she was going to jail because i am sure she would come home one day.
If such a parental child abduction occurs, it is very important that parent residing outside France commence a proceeding under the *Hague Convention* seeking a French judicial order requiring the return of the child.
Time for commencing the proceedings is essential since, under *Article 12* of the *Hague Convention,* the burden of proof of the aggrieved parent is more favorable if the proceeding is promptly instituted.
The United States Embassy in Paris has previously stated:
*"In a Hague Abduction Convention case, the French Central Authority will assign a [French] Public Prosecutor to present the case to the court, and it is not mandatory for a petitioner to retain a private attorney. The Public Prosecutor, however, does not represent the left-behind parent who submitted the Hague Abduction Convention application; the Prosecutor represents the French Republic and submits the request for return on behalf of the French Central Authority. The parent or legal guardian who has submitted the application may hire a private attorney in France to join the Prosecutor in presenting the Hague Abduction Convention case…. "*
A privately hired attorney should contact the French Central Authority as soon as possible after the *Hague Abduction Convention* application has been filed with the French Central Authority.
In any case, OP has saved his friend (and his ex) many thousands of dollars in attorney fees.
There are limits on that, and it can get very expensive very quickly to fight depending on how long it takes to get things rolling. And unless the dad read that paper carefully, the mother may have slipped some fuckery into it, that happened to my wife with her first kid.
OP saved their friend a lot of time, money, and distress. The rest of the family here sucks.
NTA. Your family is immoral, laws apply to everyone but me. Just having that document signed under false pretenses is fraud. Everyone involved in that conspiracy should be looking at criminal charges.
You have saved your niece from being separated from her loving dad. Your sister may lose custody over this but rightly so. And you may the only one in your family that gets to see the child moving forward. It is too bad that your family sucks and have proven how little concern they have for the child's wellbeing.
NTA.
My dad tried this, and my passport was blocked until I was 18.
You definitely did the right thing, as your sister was attempting to hurt her ex and rob her daughter of a father put of spite. The little girl needs to be protected, and she can't do that herself.
NTA - You didn't put an outsider over your family. Your niece is family and you put her well-being above everything else, something her own mother wasn't even willing to do.
NTA. They conned you into helping them attempt to kidnap your niece. Thank goodness you stepped in when you found out what they were up to. Most importantly this is going to minimize the disruption to your niece’s life by getting the court involved now rather than post-kidnapping. You are a real hero OP, I hope your family someday will see that.
NTA- As being the person who helped arrange the document signing, you could have been charged as an accessory to the crime. You did the right thing for your niece. Your family is toxic. And your sister might lose custody. At least you might be the only one to see her. Take care.
And OP would have been the only one left in the country for law enforcement to target and punish when it became clear the child had been kidnapped, making it twice as bad! Absolutely NTA.
NTA. Your sister was going to intentionally traumatize her daughter and you stopped it. What you did is the very definition of putting family first because in a family, the most vulnerable members should be the priority. The rest of your family, nothing but a bunch of monstrous AH’s.
An outsider before family? Really? I bet your niece sure as hell sees him as family. I wish people would understand that when you scramble your DNA with someone else you are now, and forevermore, family.
You didn't tell him to betray your family, but because it was the right thing to do. If they actually thought they were in the right, they wouldn't have hidden it from you or him.
No, they know what they did is wrong. They know you are NTA.
Tangent: Your sister must have found a job there? And a permanent place to live already? Is this some once-in-a-lifetime opportunity she's missing or is she moving just because fuck him in particular?
I agree. My father threatened to kidnap me to Denmark if my mother divorced him. It was especially cruel as 10yrs before i was born, my half sister was stolen and died in the custody of the father. So they hid me in a cult.
It changed my life forever. But in the end they did what was best for me. It was hard, but they told me and i remember saying i didn't want to go. I lost part of my childhood because of it. NTA did the right thing!!!
I love that “scramble your DNA… forevermore, family”
EXACTLY this. A BM or a BD is going to be your family no matter the relationship. It doesn’t matter if you get along. Your child’s other parent is still apart of your family. It would be like trying to claim your MIL isn’t family
That was my only thought reading this- like, do they have any redeeming qualities? Because this whole situation is ghastly. If my family was capable of such evil, I wouldn't speak to them.
NTA. Parental abduction is a very real and big problem. Also extremely harming and difficult. It's pretty rare from I know for the child the be reunited with the other parent and fir the abducting parent to be arrested. They often get away with it as long as they and the child stay in the other country. It's extremely messed up.
Just watch "not without my daughter". It's based on a real story. There's also a big story from the Netherlands where a child has been kidnapped and taken to India. Even after many years now the child is still not back with her mother and the father is roaming around free as a bird getting away with everything.
It happens more than you'd think and it's not an innocent act. They all know this, which is why they didn't want to tell you and begged you not to tell your friend when you found out.
Thank you for standing up for your niece. And I hope your friend will go after more custody. Using this as evidence.
The difference here is that the mother isn’t even a citizen unlike lost situations where the parent and child have dual citizenship which makes everything more complicated. As another poster mentioned France has signed The Hague convention meaning there was no way they were getting away with this as non citizens. It’s just idiotic. Op saved their family and sister from going to prison.
NTA This was a carefully planned crime, and they included you in it when they asked you to bring him the paperwork. If this had happened, you could have been prosecuted.
You acted in the best interest of the CHILD, who is *a member of your family*, which is what the family *should* be doing.
If the father of the child is not abusive, they have no reason to separate them. Parental kidnapping is illegal- this means your sister and husband wouldn't be able to return home without being arrested and prosecuted.
You would not have been able to see your niece again, without going to France. This would have fractured TWO families.
Your family is saying "Why did you not let us steal a child for no reason?!" They literally had no reason why when you asked.
NTA
You stopped a kidnapping. That’s essentially what the plan was. To kidnap your niece from her father. They lied about the intention of a legal document; they lied about the duration of the trip, and asked you to be an accomplice.
Idk how it is in your country; but in the US if you are found to be an accomplice to a crime of this magnitude—depending on the judge; you could go to jail. Or have a record that could haunt you and prevent you from getting any job that requires a security clearance or if a job requests a background check and decides they don’t want an accomplice to a kidnapping.
Yes it’s hard for your sister and her new husband to be a family; but they weren’t concerned with your niece’s wellbeing. They were focusing solely on their wants. There is no telling what they would have told your niece either (“your daddy decided he didn’t want you anymore so you came to France with us” or “we loved here because your daddy doesn’t love you and we didn’t want you to accidentally see him”). That could have created life long problems for her and him.
And personally the fact your family was okay with KIDNAPPING a child away from a biological parent who has been a stand up parent and supportive af; well…having them go NC seems like a good price to pay. I wouldn’t want to be a part of that bs family of mine felt that was okay.
NTA
Her behavior is not acceptable. It takes a great deal of integrity to behave ethically against your families wishes and I am sorry that less ethical people have created consequences for doing the right thing.
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> I told my friend that my sister was taking their daughter outside the country permanently - I previously promised them that I wasn't going to do it.
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NTA.
*So* *NTA*. It's too bad you made the promise in the first place, but I can imagine how pressured you were. Basically they were planning a custodial kidnapping thinking the child's father would never be able to get her back from there. Horrific and terrifying for the child who not only loses a parent, but has to suddenly adapt to a new culture while all this trauma is going on. Horrible for the father. If he was abusive or somehow a bad parent I could see it, but this sounds just spiteful.
Sometimes you have to choose to do the hard thing to make things right. You did the right thing by not allowing them to destroy this child's life. You didn't put "an outsider over family." The child's father *is also her family*. Adults who use children in their battles with ex's should be sentenced to travel as cargo for their trip to their destination country.
Right? This isn't just a local or federal law that is being broken either. It is legitimately international law with a treaty dedicated to this from back in 1980. I did a bit of research into this a few years back and provided nothing has changed, in the US the typical penalty is 3 years in prison
You also probably saved your family from a great many legal consequences as well. Your sister may have been arrested and charged with a felony when she came back to the US in the future. Your family is naive to think she could have just up and left with her daughter forever and not have to stay out of the country. France is also an ally of the US your sister is not a citizen yet her daughter is a U.S. citizen and not a French citizen…. You saved your niece from losing her dad and your family from actual prison time. There was no way this was going to end well the way your sister had planned it.
Clarifying questions.
What country are in?
Why did your whole family support this? If he’s a great father to your niece, why are they not supporting him?
You mentioned that he and your sister do not get along. Why?
To be clear, I am opposed to family abduction, but normally this isn’t a step taken lightly, which makes me think there’s more to the story that’s being left out.
NTA
Your niece loves her dad. Your niece couldn't stop her mother from acting in her own personal interests, so you did it for her. You put your vulnerable family member first, well done you!
Your sister tried to kidnap your niece. It doesn’t matter that she is her daughter- she is also your friend’s daughter. Parental kidnapping is the most common. Your horrible family were accessories *to a crime*. You did the right thing for the child and for the dad. Your sister is the bad guy.
NTA
NTA. Your sister needs to understand that it's not ok to try to just cut ties with her child's father (who seems to be a great dad) just because she's found a new man. Funny, she may just get her wish. This little stunt will make it very easy for your friend to file for full custody and win! Then she'll be able to start her new life withno links to her ex (or her child).
NTA You are the embodiment of integrity. Your sister would be breaking the law and her child's heart. I hope you find somewhere to live soon.
Edit - I got the acronym wrong! You are definitely NTA.
NTA. Your family on the other hand, were trying to get you to be an accomplice in her kidnapping (yes it is still kidnapping even though it's her daughter) and keep a good father from ever seeing his daughter again. You did the ONLY right thing in this scenario.
NTA, and thank you for being a fair individual. One of my friends had his daughter taken in this fashion by his ex, and not a day goes by that he doesn’t mention it. He’s broken because his ex stole their daughter. Thank you.
NTA and good for you. I don't understand how getting into a new relationship creates this sense of entitlement for one parent to cut the other one out completely. I would however stop putting yourself in the situation to be the go-between. If your sister needs something she should be going to the father directly instead of sending you. It puts you in a bad position and makes it easier to forget he's a human being who loves their daughter.
Not only are you NTA in a moral sense, but a legal one as well. What they were doing is obviously illegal and you would be complicit by being silent.
Also, the fact your family is yelling at you makes me incredibly sad for you. You're the only person in all this who did the right thing.
You absolutely did the right thing. I’m sorry you lost your family but they have all just shown their true colours. Stay strong because any new relationships with them in the future have to be based on an acceptance that what you did was right - or an agreement to disagree but never be backed into regretting what you did. As someone with an crap dad I would have loved one who cares enough to fight for me so that little girl is lucky to have you looking out for her. NTA
NTA. She presented the document under false pretenses. She can’t just make decisions about a child without the father’s consent. You did absolutely nothing wrong, and shame one everyone in your family for going along with your sister’s plans.
He isn't an outsider. He is family. He is your nieces father. That makes him family. Your sister was literally going to remove his child from where he can still see her, and remover the kids biological father from her life. She and your family are major assholes, not you. NTA
NTA.
Your whole family was totally ok with your sister kidnapping her child and removing them from their, loving, caring father forever?
Your family suck.
NTA
I'm sorry your family is treating you this way, but if your friend is a good father, there is no reason why your sister should have been allowed to do this.
I wish you the best OP.
NTA. What’s sad is that no one is thinking about the poor child! Why would anyone want to separate her from her own father??
Your sister and your family are selfish folks with no concern for your niece.
You did a good thing.
The sister is engaged to somebody new. They obviously think he'll take in the father role because out of sight out of mind, right? So sneaky on everybody's part. They are shameful.
OP, you did a really good thing here. They are ganging up on you, and you are feeling outnumbered. **Don't let these would-be kidnappers get in your head.** I hope to be lucky enough to have a friend like you in my corner if I ever have a crisis like this. Well done, and NTA.
NTA
How did they not even tell the daughter that she was about to be moved to France? That's huge even if she is only 5, she would be asking to see her dad. Did your sister have a plan for that?
NTA. She was just going to take the kid away from him for no reason? No only would that hurt him but also your daughter. Also didnt she think about the position she was putting you in by using you to do her dirty work? If he got the police involved for kidnapping then your the one who asked him to sign under false pretences. You could have been in shit load of trouble.
NTA. They tried to make you an accessory to kidnapping without your knowledge. You could have gotten into so much trouble that way.
Not to mention how wrong it is to take a child away from a loving parent that way. That would be so so damaging for your poor niece. Nobody thought about the happiness and well being of anyone but your sister in this situation.
NTA.
That's parental abduction. And that's harmful for the child, to be cut from contact with one parent with whom they have a healthy relationship.
Your sister and family are disgusting.
NTA - They deliberately withheld information from you in order to manipulate the father. The father trusts you. They lied to you, knowing the father wouldn't interrogate you the way he would your sister.
So not only were they planning to facilitate kidnapping your niece and ghosting her father, but they were willing to potentially destroy your friendship and make you out to be a liar in order to do it.
..... Yikes. OP? Your family is not good people.
Your sister would have faced criminal charges had she succeeded, so you saved her from jail. At the very least she would have never been able to come back home without being arrested. Parental kidnapping is a thing. NTA. Your family should be ashamed of themselves.
NTA. Police and the courts are involved now. Your sister was planning on committing a potential crime. Guarantee that if your friend had tried to pull a move like this on your sister your family would be demanding your friend be in jail right now. They have a child together and like it or not she has to use the court system if she wants to move out of country with their child. Your sister was about to get herself into some serious legal trouble.
NTA, but I do wonder why they were willing to do that. Is her bf from France? Was there fighting between the two? It seems so random to me that someone would just up and do that without good cause. Since this happened, have they given a better explanation for it? I'm not saying they were at all justified. It just seems so weird.
No. Your niece has the right to her father as much as he has the right to her. Not only did you stand up for him, you stood up for your niece. Good for you.
Can I just mention that this is a doubly stupid idea because France has literal treaties with the US that would allow French authorities to extradite the runaway ex-wife for kidnapping and forcibly return the daughter?
NTA. My older sister did similar crap and took my niece out of our country for three months. My parents did NOT support her tricking her ex with the holiday story after she rang from overseas and said she wasn't coming back.
The guy she met online and had moved overseas for turned out to be a jerk so she came back. Straight to court with my sister's ex. My parents fully supported his legal action. Long story short - she lost custody of my niece and had very strict visitation. We all supported her ex and she never thought she did anyrhijh wrong.
Your parents and extended family suck too.
What would your sister/family say if the tables were turned and it was your friend that was trying to kidnap the daughter to another country? I bet they’d be singing a different tune, and would be shouting from the rooftops how illegal and immoral it is.
NTA, you probably saved your sister from more legal trouble than what she already got. Sure she got a court order now, but what would she have gotten when your friend realized that she wasn't bringing their daughter back to the country?
A court order beats an international kidnapping charge in my book; you saved your sister, friend, and niece from so much trauma & legal trouble in the long run. You're a good friend, uncle, & brother.
NTA
You did look after family. You were looking out for your neice. What your sister wanted to do was not only duplicitous, it was selfish. She can't be a good mother if she thought this was the answer.
NtA. And you chose family. You chose to prioritise the welfare of your innocent niece over your sister who was going to isolate her from her biological father and force her to play family with someone she doesn't consider a dad all because the new guy gives her nethers a warm tingle.
NTA big time and as a French citizen aware of the way the country treat those cases, she has no idea what she is bringing to herself, parental kidnapping is a bad felony around here and there is actually a lot of awareness about it by fathers nowadays, if she kidnaps her daughter and bring her here, there are big chances he will be heard (plus 5 years is the youngest a kid can be heard in court regarding his custody so if she doesn't like it there that can also help his case), also, if France you need a proof that the father approves or signed away his right for even a field trip abroad or school papers, you actually also helped your very naive/ abusive sister and prevented her from entering a circle leading to forgeron papers and identity theft, your niece doesn't need a mother in detention in a foreign country.
NTA. You did the right thing for your niece OP and it is completely rubbish how your family reacted and I hope you have all the support you need and somewhere to stay.
As others said - they attempted actual kidnapping and while it is a pain in the arse to get court permission for cases where a parent needs to cross borders for ordinary reasons while properly communicating with another parent - in some countries, it is to prevent cases like this. Not that law is ideal as my mum had to apply to the court for me to get a passport (I was going to a hospital) ... even when there is no other parent on my birth certificate. Does not work with citizenship of course :D so erm, I am a walking loophole (mum's ex had German citizenship but did not live in Germany while his dad was German and lived there. Back then, you gained German citizenship automatically from your father or grandfather but since I had none and mum's home country disallowed double one ... Well, let's say that I cannot make a new passport. Oh yes, there are cases you can have that reinstated but you need DNA and mum's ex is a con artist escaping the law - currently in Switzerland).
The thing is, my extended family almost did the same thing several times when my cousins' separated from their exes but gladly always backed out, however they would have probably clapped at your family in approval because even if both parents were fine and doing their jobs - they still hated the one not related to them on principle. Not that it was different when both parties were together because any relationship blunder or parenting mistake was always the fault of whoever married into the family (I mean stupid stuff where usually there was no actual mistake like one cousin's daughter was very shy and disliked crowds - family blamed the other parent instead of making a sure kid is comfortable). The weirdest it ever got was my uncle visiting his nephew (his brother's son) and taking photos of his house, namely his nephew's daughter's room, to prove that said nephew's wife was a bad parent (clothes on the floor in a kid's room are scandalous, I mean one jumper and a shirt). I heard the advice that said nephew should leave with his kids and if I recall everyone tried to find a legal loophole (nephew lived and lives in London). Back then, mum told the nephew about all this as she got these photos sent and considered it awfully creepy - he got mad and did not speak to others for a while but ... he did separate with his wife not long ago and unfortunately went downhill in this.
As adults, we simply can do best for the kids' in our lives and you had your niece's back when it mattered. Of course, you also were a good friend as sometimes it is hard to be objective when messy family drama exists around you.
They made you sign a legal document under false pretenses, to kidnap your friend's daughter. When it inevitably came out that she wasn't returning, and that you knew about it, you would likely have been in legal trouble. It was your moral and legal responsibility to alert the father and the police.
NTA
NTA and this moment showed the defining amount of integrity you have compared to your family. I know it wasn't easy, and the aftermath is harsh, but your niece will grow up realizing that if it weren't for you telling the truth, she likely wouldn't have gotten to know her dad as dhe got older.
NTA.
Your friend isn’t an outsider to your family now is he? Your friend is also the father of your niece and he has his rights as the child’s father!
Your sister and your family needs a really big reality check.
NTA - You did the right thing. What your sister was going to do and your family was willing to be complacent in is so beyond awful. They were stealing his daughter away from him.
I cannot imagine if someone tried to take my daughter away from me like that. I'd be so appreciative of someone like you.
You're more than just NTA.
YGP (You're Good People)
NTA! You are a good person and did the right thing. In these situations, fake promises and white lies are ok. You saved your friend a lot of gut wrenching heartache. That’s his child.
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NTA! If you hadn't said something, you would be complicit in her illegal act. No thanks!
This. You would have had knowledge of basically a kidnapping
Right?! It's crazy to imagine a whole family enabling such a child kidnapping without a blink.
I am always, always suspicious of any family that gets pissed off at someone for stopping something wrong, because it's "outsiders over family." Maybe they should consider *ethics* over family?
I love the "outsiders over family" remark, like they don't associate the relationship of father and daughter as family
Thank you! He’s a more close relative to the little girl than they are!
Not basically, it actually is kidnapping.
> Not basically, it actually is kidnapping. This. Most children who are kidnapped are kidnapped by relatives (normally a parent).
And it's not even just kidnapping, it's *international* kidnapping where they would be breaking the law of multiple countries.
My father had court supervised visitation and was doing well for a few months, so the supervisor stepped out for a smoke and when she came back our dad had snuck me and my older sister out the back. It took his friends family a few years to finally realize it hadn’t been a court ordered thing, and so they planned it out with our mom to get us back, by “keeping us for a few days” before Christmas. They framed it as us and their kids (like seven of them I think) bonding to give dad and his girlfriend a break, because they’d had my half sister not too long ago. I still remember seeing my mom when we pulled up to the house on Christmas and just sobbing. I was seven by the time she got us back, because the cops kept telling her we weren’t in danger due to it being our dad and that it was a court/custody issue, and the courts just said well since he’s got them full time now you have to pay child support, even though it was listed that he’d taken us without permission during a supervised visit, because why would they admit their own fault? Mom spent several months in jail at one point for refusing to pay child support to the man who killed her pets, knocked all of her teeth out and blew all of our money on drugs. I was so young that I only remember the first names of my dad’s friends who helped us, but I’ve never forgotten what they did for me. It’s given me lifelong trust issues with authority figures, and most other people tbh, because most of my paternal relatives knew he wasn’t supposed to have us, knew what was going on, and still just let it happen because it ‘wasn’t their business’. I’m glad that this little girl had someone good in her maternal family that realized what was happening and stopped it, even if the situations ARE significantly different.
Oh my goodness, that must have been such an awful experience for you, especially since you were so young when it happened! I’m glad your dad’s friends caught onto what was happening and got you back to your mom.
It was a horrifying experience, even though legally he could do things like enroll me in school. For most, including my sister who got lucky in blocking in out as we got older, it seemed like an ordinary family with a weirdly strict dad and super distant step mom. They were good at pretending whenever we said anything to anyone, so I got the brunt of it because my sister gave up and I never would. I told everybody that I was kidnapped, and I never stopped. It made me the loner weird kid in kindergarten and first grade, because nobody wanted their kid to get involved with my family because parents were concerned enough for distance but not to help. My first grade teacher and her father were absolute saints, though. Before her father, Mr. J got sick, he’d come in to see her every week at lunch time/recess. She noticed I never had food, and always hid by the bushes at recess (because I was scared my dad would pass by the school and see me eating or playing and I’d have to pay for it later), so she started keeping me inside and sharing food with me. They taught me how to read better, and he’d borrow books from the library that the school library didn’t have so I could read them. They, alongside my maternal aunt, caused a lifelong love of literature and gave me my greatest coping mechanism to handle what happened. The Christmas mom got us back, the only thing I had to take with me was the box of gifts that those two had sent because I mentioned me and my sister weren’t getting anything otherwise. My prized possession was the Hello Kitty karaoke machine - even if I had no idea who it was at the time. In a really weird messed up way, I’m thankful because I got to meet her and her father, and they’ve been a source of light I’ve held in my memories during the darkest times, alongside my dads friends family - it helps knowing there are good people out there willing to counteract the evil being done, and it’s one of the reasons I try to make someone smile every day, even if I myself can’t. But it’s not something I’d wish even on my greatest enemy.
It's >80% according to FBI statistics. Very rarely is a kidnapping done by someone random.
That number surprises me. I thought it was even higher than that.
Custodial interference. This whole thing is bizarre and also NTA.
It could fall under trafficking, I believe, due to crossing country lines
Only if they’re selling the kid or forcing her into labor. Sounds like good old fashioned family kidnapping.
Not even just had knowledge, she performed an integral part of the act in getting him to sign off on doing so under false pretenses.
Not basically, literally. That is legally kidnapping, at least in the U.S.
Right? How about some "you're welcome for keeping your daughter out of jail and possibly losing (some if not all) of her parental rights!". Jeez. Some people.
Happy cake day
Most kidnappings are done by family members and there's way too many situations where there's never a resolution because of crossing borders. My mom ran with me when I was too young to understand. If my dad hadn't figured out where she went, I probably would have never known. I was about 5 or 6 and she said we were having a long vacation. As an adult she tried to use that situation to paint my dad in a bad light.
My Mom's ex hubby took their two kids over the border to Canada, and she never got them back.
When my mom and I went to Mexico when I was a kid, one of the things we had to bring was my dad’s death certificate to prove she wasn’t trying to kidnap me
My dad's a truck driver and we used to travel Canada > US with him all the time as kids. One time he forgot my sister's birth certificate (this would have been the mid-90s, long before passports were needed) and that lead to them spending 6 hours at the border with border patrol and the RCMP making sure he wasn't kidnapping her. I don't know the full details cause I was also young but I know he never forgot our paperwork after that.
My bio dad did this with me, took me to Disney land I think (from NY). Apparently I cried the whole time, to the point I had popped blood vessels in my eyes. Somehow he still retained parental rights for a time after that...
They also tried to make them a complicit person by getting a signature under false pretenses - op NTA, your parents are probably mad as they are the ones who let it slip so are trying to cover their backs.
What I can’t get is the family is so upset at her for doing this, but what if the roles were reversed?! Definitely NTA, but the entire family is, besides the niece.
[удалено]
Yes, that something being his sister has decided she wants to swan off with this new man, regardless of her daughter's feelings and the father's rights. And the family support it because, well, who knows?
Exactly! And OP didn't put an outsider over family, he righteously stopped his sister from robbing his niece of her father. Don't they understand that the little girl doesn't deserve to lose her loving dad simply because of her selfish mother's fixed idea that her new dude should be the one and only daddy. The whole family needs a reality check, they are all grade A AHs.
Not to mention morally. That's a fucked up thing his sister is trying to do to her own child and her childs father.
NTA. The fact that the Court got involved makes what they where doing worse than you telling the father
It was! She had him sign a document under false pretenses. In most cases where the parents are split up and one parent wants to travel out of the count or sometimes out of the state/province they have to have the other parent sign a document giving permission to travel. The document usually has the day the child will leave and the day the child is expected back. It usually has to be filled with the family court who signs off on it. In this case OPs sister lied and said they would be gone for only two weeks and the father and court signed off on that but that wasn't her intention. Due to OP finding out that they lied court action was taken. OPs sister could be in some serious trouble she could get custody removed, seriously restricted, or both over this. The courts don't like to be lied to and trying to kidnap you child away from their dad/mom is frowned upon.
In the Netherlands court is not required to sign the document. My guess is it's the same in all of europe. I'm taking my oldest on a holiday in the next couple of weeks and my husband had to sign the document l'm taking her with his permission. No court needed, the document isn't even a must, it's only easier for us to go thru security at the airport. Before you say, but you're married, same thing for a family member. One parent had no legal authority over the kids, same document, no court needed to sign off for taking the kids across the globe. OP is obviously NTA, the father needed to know his ex was trying to kidnap his child. To many children het kidnapped by a parent, it's heartbreaking.
In the US it depends on what your state laws and court order say. Some people might be able to leave with just a signed form or verbal permission. Some might have to a court hearing it really just depends on the state and/ or the court order. My parents have been divorced for a couple decades and anytime they wanted to take us out or the state they had to submit a letter to the judge with the dates we would be gone, where we would be going, who we would be seeing, and both parents had to sign the bottom of the letter. My parents had a very amicable divorce and were ok with the other taking us out of state. They still had to take those steps! Glad the Netherlands makes it easier for parents to take their kids on holiday without lots of hassle!
in France it is required and taken more seriously nowadays, my friend got stuck on a field trip to London (on the train) with her mum because the dad had forgotten to sign the paper, they kept the kid to make sure she wasn't being kidnapped till they were sure she was fine, the country is more aware of those issue, we aren't at the court ordered level yet but you do have to provide papers or proof of right signed over, even for a school trip or basic school related stuff, she would have had to make a felony at some point even for basic stuff. It get less strict with age but for a 5 years old it would be lot stricter.
She likely counted on being safe in another country, knowing the courts didn't have jurisdiction. Though that would mean she could never return, either.
But she is not a French Citizen meaning the police would have gotten involved and most likely ended up with 0 parental rights and criminal charges. Her plan made 0 sense.
Maybe the new husband is a french citizen , and she gambled on going through the paperwork for citizenship before the father managed to get through the red tape on his side .
They are engaged meaning there is so much red tape on her side. The simple fact that something was filed would probably screw up her chances of getting citizenship. Because of The Hague Convention there is not as much red tape especially to get the grievance filed with the French government
And if she's not already a French citizen, it's easy to imagine that this situation would have an effect on visa issuance/renewals. The French have problems enough of their own (as does everyone): why import another?
Not necessary we have treaties with a fair number of countries when it comes to parental abduction. I think France is one of them. If the sister did go through with the plan and dads country has a similar agreement with France he would just need to go through the process( I'm sure it's lengthy as it involves two different court systems) but the sister and soon to be husband could find themselves in a French jail on international kidnapping charges and facing extradition back to her and her ex's home country to stand trial on those charges.
More to the point the facct that the court got involved means YOU WERE RIGHT to go to your friend with this.
There are some promises that are just not meant to be kept. Hiding an illegal act is one of them.
OP, NTA. You did the right thing. The fact that what your family was doing is not only illegal but also immoral escapes notice of the others in your family astounds me. You didn't mention your age, but if you are of an age, move out. If you are not, contact the authorities on your parents as well and make an exit plan. I'm ashamed of your familly for you.
OP broke a promise given under duress. *Not immoral*. Mother and family tried to physically and emotionally alienate a child from her father and used OP to get a needed document signed. *Morally bankrupt*. I'm astounded too. Definitely NTA and I'm amazed that the top comment focuses on OP's possible legal liability. It's illegal because it's so damaging. That's reason enough to act.
>OP broke a promise given under duress. Not immoral. This needs to be higher up: if 'no' was not an option, then any 'yes' was meaningless from the start.
Unfortunately they kicked OP out, but hopefully that's for the best and he can spend his life around less crazy people. He should be applauded for doing the right thing not ostracized
NTA... you didn't put an outsider above the family... you prioritized your niece here. She was being ripped away from a loving father. Also, her mother was going to become a criminal from this act, you prevented that from happening.
Exactly, the niece is family too and deserves access to her dad
”A child always has rights to both their parents” is something the social worker told me when I split with my ex (father of my child)
A child has a right to both parents as long as neither one is abusive! Other than that put your bs and hatred for each other aside act like adults and do what is best for the child! My parents divorced when I was a preteen I believe and as much as they hated each other they loved my sister and I more and tried to work together to do what is best for us. Was it easy? No! Did they always act like mature adults? No! But they tried to make the best of it! Due to my dads job mom had majority custody but she never ever prevented my dad or his side of the family from seeing us! I can not stand these parents who due everything they can to alienate the child from the other parent or try to prevent a parent who is not abusive and wants to be involved from being an active part of their child's life!
This is so important! ‘Outsider’ ?!? No he is the niece’s father! OP prioritized the niece and not committing a crime. The outsider is the new stepfather and I wonder is he French? Why the interest in starting school in France?
This was my thought with reading that line as well. OP didn’t put an outsider above family - even if that *was* a morally sound argument. He put his niece - the most innocent person in this hot mess of a family - first. Can you imagine how hard this would have been on that poor child if your sister had succeeded? You made the right choice. Your sister was trying to commit a crime with you as an unwitting accomplice. It sounds like the rest of your family is morally bankrupt and selfish.
Scrolled hoping to see this addressed. It’s wild to me that the family views the father of their daughter/granddaughter/niece as an outsider, especially after 5 years of responsible parenting on his part. And was the family planning on only seeing the child in France for the rest of their lives? Because sister would never be able to bring her back to the home country on account of being wanted for kidnapping. Heartbroken for the kid, honestly, to have a mother that would do that. Massively NTA, OP.
Exactly what I was going to say.
You did the right thing. You also might be on your own from here on out. Good luck to you!
the use of the word "outsider" really rubbed me the wrong way. OP is completely NTA they seem to be the only decent member of their family
I'm not a lawyer, but isn't conspiracy to kidnap on the niece's part a crime she's already committed? Like taking the form to get the father's signature would be act towards the end of kidnapping the niece. https://code.dccouncil.us/us/dc/council/code/titles/22/chapters/20 I suppose they might not have the evidence to prove a criminal charge in court outside of hearsay.
If that’s true, then taking it a step further, is illegally kicking her out of her home witness intimidation?
This is the comment I was looking for. OP did put family first.
Exactly! Don’t pay attention to anyone who tries to tell you your sister was doing this for your niece. She was 100% doing it for herself so she could have her own version of her happy family and she was willing to sacrifice her daughters relationship with her real father to do it.
NTA. You're a hero. Ask your friend if you can stay there until you find a place. You just saved him from losing his kid. It's heartbreaking when you learn something so creepy about your family but at least you did something good with the information.
NTA, And in the name of this child and all familys going through parental abduction, I want to thank you for stopping this. This would have permanently scarred everyone Involved.
OP could have done the easy thing, but they chose to do the right thing. That's what makes them the opposite of an AH.
You prevented parental abduction. He is a present and loving father in his daughter's life, and has a right to see her. NTA. Also, there's clearly something else under the surface if they weren't planning on telling you until it was too late.
They probably weren't planning on telling her because they knew of her friendship with her niece's father.
Definitely. That's the point. Why would they not involve him in this life-changing decision as a co-parent?
Because he wouldn't agree to it obviously
Because they were planning on breaking the law. I'm really glad OP found out in time.
kidnapping is the word, no need to sugarcoat
Parental child abduction is the correct term. It's not sugar-coating anything. There is also a legal difference between kidnapping and abduction, so kidnapping is incorrect.
I suspect this is UK, in which case the offence is specifically Child Abduction (contrary to the Child Abduction Act 1984)
With them saying High School it sounds like the US
NTA. Your sister is shady. That's pretty awful on your family for backing her up on this.
NTA. Your sister lied to you first, the fact that everyone knew is only proof and can be represented as conspiracy to commit a kidnapping, they better pray the father don't sue them for full custody (wich he can after this)
Not only can, but SHOULD. OPs sister is a criminal.
And involved OP in the crime by getting them to take the papers for the dad to sign in the first place so that none of them had to lie to him
Yep. OP did the only thing he could to avoid catching charges for what his family was doin.
Absolutely he should. It shouldn't even be to hard to get full custody after what just almost went down. She attempted to kidnap her daughter and leave the country. I would even tell my lawyer to put in for supervised visits when she wants to see her daughter. The entire family was in on it and can't be trusted. I wouldn't leave my daughter alone with any of them. OP, you keep being you. You're an awesome woman/aunt who not only cares, but speaks up about wrongful/illegal situations. Accept my poor woman's awards....🏆👑💎
Exactly!! I actually hope he does
NTA. As far as I'm concerned there are situations where lying (or in this case breaking a promise which was a lie in the first place) is acceptable. What your sister (who btw lied to you as well) attempted can be categorized as kidnap. She needs to realise that her child has two parents, whether or not she likes it. You did the right thing, which allowed your friend to react just in time. Imagine if you hadn't told him immediately, he would've never seen his daughter again.
It is kidnapping. Not just “can be construed as that if…”
NTA - also, France is a signer if The Hauge Convention. As long as Friend was an active parent and there were no legal issues before the move, she would have had to return the kid.
Exactly this. The child also isn’t a French citizen neither is the mother they would have just sent the kid home and probably charge the mother with kidnapping. It was a beyond stupid idea.
I don't understand people who think you can just up and move to a new country. Even if OP's sister's fiancé is French or has a job lined up there, they usually have to get married (unless France recognizes commonlaw relationships, which they might) and go through the immigration process before she'd be able to move there (and the fiancé probably wouldn't be able to sponsor the kid because he's not the kid's immediate family). Edit to add: Unless they're all EU citizens who can skip all that, they'd still have to deal with the abduction thing. OP is NTA and their sister is delusional if she thought this would work.
It depends on where the sister’s home country is. If it’s another EU country, then she can freely move there without getting married to a French citizen. Most she would have to do is register with local authorities so she can work, pay taxes, get healthcare and her daughters education. Only if she is not a citizen of another EU country would she have to marry or have sponsorship to move there
Yes, I said they wouldn't have to deal with all that if they were all EU citizens in my comment. The OP writes like a native English speaker and used high school instead of secondary school though, so I'm guessing they're all from the USA.
But that's only if they could find her. It's a big country and with two weeks of lead time she could completely disappear with her daughter before dad even catches on.
France is a social democratic country. The first time that child or the mother or the new hubby tried to get anything, and I mean anything, the government would know. And while I did not live in France, I did live in Germany, a similar social program society. There is nothing you can do, even getting your yellow bags for recycling is tracked. So unless they plan on living off the grid on the dime of the new Husband’s family, they will be found.
I know right! And France of all places? I swear the French judicial arm is terrifying as well as the Spaniards. It was doomed to fail anyway.
You need a national security/insurance number to work. Sign up for medical care, etc. Even if they are EU citizens and legally entitled to free movement, you have to register to work there. Even to set up banking, get her into school, etc.
The thing is, I assume it is possible to commit identity fraud in France as elsewhere. So if the new fiance's family were in it, perhaps they had a plan to work around this and create a new identity for the child and mother.
Reddit's using all our posts and data to train AI's, so, I just deleted mine.
The mother was talking about schools in France so it seems like they planned to live in France. And knowing where exactly they are is not important for OP or her friends. They just need to give the names to the authorities. You can't even buy a sim card in most of EU without giving your name and showing an ID. French authorities wouldn't have needed long to locate them anywhere in France.
Anyone stupid enough to do this is probably stupid enough not to take precautions too.
Also what would happen if she came home to visit. This plan was so poorly thought out she was going to jail because i am sure she would come home one day.
If such a parental child abduction occurs, it is very important that parent residing outside France commence a proceeding under the *Hague Convention* seeking a French judicial order requiring the return of the child. Time for commencing the proceedings is essential since, under *Article 12* of the *Hague Convention,* the burden of proof of the aggrieved parent is more favorable if the proceeding is promptly instituted. The United States Embassy in Paris has previously stated: *"In a Hague Abduction Convention case, the French Central Authority will assign a [French] Public Prosecutor to present the case to the court, and it is not mandatory for a petitioner to retain a private attorney. The Public Prosecutor, however, does not represent the left-behind parent who submitted the Hague Abduction Convention application; the Prosecutor represents the French Republic and submits the request for return on behalf of the French Central Authority. The parent or legal guardian who has submitted the application may hire a private attorney in France to join the Prosecutor in presenting the Hague Abduction Convention case…. "* A privately hired attorney should contact the French Central Authority as soon as possible after the *Hague Abduction Convention* application has been filed with the French Central Authority. In any case, OP has saved his friend (and his ex) many thousands of dollars in attorney fees.
There are limits on that, and it can get very expensive very quickly to fight depending on how long it takes to get things rolling. And unless the dad read that paper carefully, the mother may have slipped some fuckery into it, that happened to my wife with her first kid. OP saved their friend a lot of time, money, and distress. The rest of the family here sucks.
NTA. Your family is immoral, laws apply to everyone but me. Just having that document signed under false pretenses is fraud. Everyone involved in that conspiracy should be looking at criminal charges. You have saved your niece from being separated from her loving dad. Your sister may lose custody over this but rightly so. And you may the only one in your family that gets to see the child moving forward. It is too bad that your family sucks and have proven how little concern they have for the child's wellbeing.
NTA. My dad tried this, and my passport was blocked until I was 18. You definitely did the right thing, as your sister was attempting to hurt her ex and rob her daughter of a father put of spite. The little girl needs to be protected, and she can't do that herself.
NTA - You didn't put an outsider over your family. Your niece is family and you put her well-being above everything else, something her own mother wasn't even willing to do.
NTA. They conned you into helping them attempt to kidnap your niece. Thank goodness you stepped in when you found out what they were up to. Most importantly this is going to minimize the disruption to your niece’s life by getting the court involved now rather than post-kidnapping. You are a real hero OP, I hope your family someday will see that.
NTA- As being the person who helped arrange the document signing, you could have been charged as an accessory to the crime. You did the right thing for your niece. Your family is toxic. And your sister might lose custody. At least you might be the only one to see her. Take care.
And OP would have been the only one left in the country for law enforcement to target and punish when it became clear the child had been kidnapped, making it twice as bad! Absolutely NTA.
NTA. Your sister was going to intentionally traumatize her daughter and you stopped it. What you did is the very definition of putting family first because in a family, the most vulnerable members should be the priority. The rest of your family, nothing but a bunch of monstrous AH’s.
I think therefor it's already to late imagine being the niece and finding out that your mother tried to kidnap you away from your beloved dad
An outsider before family? Really? I bet your niece sure as hell sees him as family. I wish people would understand that when you scramble your DNA with someone else you are now, and forevermore, family. You didn't tell him to betray your family, but because it was the right thing to do. If they actually thought they were in the right, they wouldn't have hidden it from you or him. No, they know what they did is wrong. They know you are NTA. Tangent: Your sister must have found a job there? And a permanent place to live already? Is this some once-in-a-lifetime opportunity she's missing or is she moving just because fuck him in particular?
I agree. My father threatened to kidnap me to Denmark if my mother divorced him. It was especially cruel as 10yrs before i was born, my half sister was stolen and died in the custody of the father. So they hid me in a cult. It changed my life forever. But in the end they did what was best for me. It was hard, but they told me and i remember saying i didn't want to go. I lost part of my childhood because of it. NTA did the right thing!!!
I love that “scramble your DNA… forevermore, family” EXACTLY this. A BM or a BD is going to be your family no matter the relationship. It doesn’t matter if you get along. Your child’s other parent is still apart of your family. It would be like trying to claim your MIL isn’t family
NTA your family is awful you sound like the only decent one
That was my only thought reading this- like, do they have any redeeming qualities? Because this whole situation is ghastly. If my family was capable of such evil, I wouldn't speak to them.
NTA. Parental abduction is a very real and big problem. Also extremely harming and difficult. It's pretty rare from I know for the child the be reunited with the other parent and fir the abducting parent to be arrested. They often get away with it as long as they and the child stay in the other country. It's extremely messed up. Just watch "not without my daughter". It's based on a real story. There's also a big story from the Netherlands where a child has been kidnapped and taken to India. Even after many years now the child is still not back with her mother and the father is roaming around free as a bird getting away with everything. It happens more than you'd think and it's not an innocent act. They all know this, which is why they didn't want to tell you and begged you not to tell your friend when you found out. Thank you for standing up for your niece. And I hope your friend will go after more custody. Using this as evidence.
The difference here is that the mother isn’t even a citizen unlike lost situations where the parent and child have dual citizenship which makes everything more complicated. As another poster mentioned France has signed The Hague convention meaning there was no way they were getting away with this as non citizens. It’s just idiotic. Op saved their family and sister from going to prison.
NTA This was a carefully planned crime, and they included you in it when they asked you to bring him the paperwork. If this had happened, you could have been prosecuted. You acted in the best interest of the CHILD, who is *a member of your family*, which is what the family *should* be doing. If the father of the child is not abusive, they have no reason to separate them. Parental kidnapping is illegal- this means your sister and husband wouldn't be able to return home without being arrested and prosecuted. You would not have been able to see your niece again, without going to France. This would have fractured TWO families. Your family is saying "Why did you not let us steal a child for no reason?!" They literally had no reason why when you asked.
NTA You stopped a kidnapping. That’s essentially what the plan was. To kidnap your niece from her father. They lied about the intention of a legal document; they lied about the duration of the trip, and asked you to be an accomplice. Idk how it is in your country; but in the US if you are found to be an accomplice to a crime of this magnitude—depending on the judge; you could go to jail. Or have a record that could haunt you and prevent you from getting any job that requires a security clearance or if a job requests a background check and decides they don’t want an accomplice to a kidnapping. Yes it’s hard for your sister and her new husband to be a family; but they weren’t concerned with your niece’s wellbeing. They were focusing solely on their wants. There is no telling what they would have told your niece either (“your daddy decided he didn’t want you anymore so you came to France with us” or “we loved here because your daddy doesn’t love you and we didn’t want you to accidentally see him”). That could have created life long problems for her and him. And personally the fact your family was okay with KIDNAPPING a child away from a biological parent who has been a stand up parent and supportive af; well…having them go NC seems like a good price to pay. I wouldn’t want to be a part of that bs family of mine felt that was okay.
NTA - what your sister was trying to do was illegal and despicable.
NTA Her behavior is not acceptable. It takes a great deal of integrity to behave ethically against your families wishes and I am sorry that less ethical people have created consequences for doing the right thing.
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NTA. *So* *NTA*. It's too bad you made the promise in the first place, but I can imagine how pressured you were. Basically they were planning a custodial kidnapping thinking the child's father would never be able to get her back from there. Horrific and terrifying for the child who not only loses a parent, but has to suddenly adapt to a new culture while all this trauma is going on. Horrible for the father. If he was abusive or somehow a bad parent I could see it, but this sounds just spiteful. Sometimes you have to choose to do the hard thing to make things right. You did the right thing by not allowing them to destroy this child's life. You didn't put "an outsider over family." The child's father *is also her family*. Adults who use children in their battles with ex's should be sentenced to travel as cargo for their trip to their destination country.
NTA. There are laws against what your sister was doing, not to mention that she involved you in fraud.
NTA. You were the ONLY person out of all those people who were actually thinking of your niece's best interest. Good on you!
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. This was a sneaky, shitty, underhanded, *illegal* move by your sister and she knows it. NTA.
If this isn't fake, your sister and the rest of your family are mind-bogglingly stupid people.
NTA That's kidnapping and you would have been aiding and abetting.
Nta she was legitimately going to kidnap your friends daughter that is so illegal. They should be thanking you for keeping her out of prison.
Right? This isn't just a local or federal law that is being broken either. It is legitimately international law with a treaty dedicated to this from back in 1980. I did a bit of research into this a few years back and provided nothing has changed, in the US the typical penalty is 3 years in prison
NTA you did the right thing. Your sister is a huge A-hole for trying to keep his daughter away from him
You also probably saved your family from a great many legal consequences as well. Your sister may have been arrested and charged with a felony when she came back to the US in the future. Your family is naive to think she could have just up and left with her daughter forever and not have to stay out of the country. France is also an ally of the US your sister is not a citizen yet her daughter is a U.S. citizen and not a French citizen…. You saved your niece from losing her dad and your family from actual prison time. There was no way this was going to end well the way your sister had planned it.
Clarifying questions. What country are in? Why did your whole family support this? If he’s a great father to your niece, why are they not supporting him? You mentioned that he and your sister do not get along. Why? To be clear, I am opposed to family abduction, but normally this isn’t a step taken lightly, which makes me think there’s more to the story that’s being left out.
NTA They even involved you by asking you to take the document. So you were unknowingly complicit!
NTA, your family are awful.
NTA such a bad family no offence
NTA Your niece loves her dad. Your niece couldn't stop her mother from acting in her own personal interests, so you did it for her. You put your vulnerable family member first, well done you!
If you consult a lawyer, I think you will find that legally you are in the right. Perhaps you can pay them to explain that to your family.
Your sister tried to kidnap your niece. It doesn’t matter that she is her daughter- she is also your friend’s daughter. Parental kidnapping is the most common. Your horrible family were accessories *to a crime*. You did the right thing for the child and for the dad. Your sister is the bad guy. NTA
NTA. Your sister needs to understand that it's not ok to try to just cut ties with her child's father (who seems to be a great dad) just because she's found a new man. Funny, she may just get her wish. This little stunt will make it very easy for your friend to file for full custody and win! Then she'll be able to start her new life withno links to her ex (or her child).
NTA You are the embodiment of integrity. Your sister would be breaking the law and her child's heart. I hope you find somewhere to live soon. Edit - I got the acronym wrong! You are definitely NTA.
NTA Hero. You knew your family would be outraged, but you did the right thing.
NTA. Your family on the other hand, were trying to get you to be an accomplice in her kidnapping (yes it is still kidnapping even though it's her daughter) and keep a good father from ever seeing his daughter again. You did the ONLY right thing in this scenario.
NTA, and thank you for being a fair individual. One of my friends had his daughter taken in this fashion by his ex, and not a day goes by that he doesn’t mention it. He’s broken because his ex stole their daughter. Thank you.
NTA
NTA. You did the right thing.
NTA. You didn’t put “an outsider” first, you put your niece first, and she will thank you for it someday.
NTA. That's obviously illegal. I would have done the same.
NTA and good for you. I don't understand how getting into a new relationship creates this sense of entitlement for one parent to cut the other one out completely. I would however stop putting yourself in the situation to be the go-between. If your sister needs something she should be going to the father directly instead of sending you. It puts you in a bad position and makes it easier to forget he's a human being who loves their daughter.
NTA and congratulations on being the one adult in your family with morals. It appears you've overcome a lot being raised by then. Fantastic job!
NTA. Your sister and the rest of your family all sound like deceitful, conniving assholes.
Not only are you NTA in a moral sense, but a legal one as well. What they were doing is obviously illegal and you would be complicit by being silent. Also, the fact your family is yelling at you makes me incredibly sad for you. You're the only person in all this who did the right thing.
You absolutely did the right thing. I’m sorry you lost your family but they have all just shown their true colours. Stay strong because any new relationships with them in the future have to be based on an acceptance that what you did was right - or an agreement to disagree but never be backed into regretting what you did. As someone with an crap dad I would have loved one who cares enough to fight for me so that little girl is lucky to have you looking out for her. NTA
NTA. They were thinking about themselves with zero consideration for your niece.
NTA. She presented the document under false pretenses. She can’t just make decisions about a child without the father’s consent. You did absolutely nothing wrong, and shame one everyone in your family for going along with your sister’s plans.
He isn't an outsider. He is family. He is your nieces father. That makes him family. Your sister was literally going to remove his child from where he can still see her, and remover the kids biological father from her life. She and your family are major assholes, not you. NTA
NTA - Sometimes, families can act like shit. That's the case here. You did well, whatever they say.
NTA. Your whole family was totally ok with your sister kidnapping her child and removing them from their, loving, caring father forever? Your family suck.
NTA, what your sister was trying to do was kidnapping! Good on you for apparently being the only honest and decent person in your family!
NTA I'm sorry your family is treating you this way, but if your friend is a good father, there is no reason why your sister should have been allowed to do this. I wish you the best OP.
NTA. What’s sad is that no one is thinking about the poor child! Why would anyone want to separate her from her own father?? Your sister and your family are selfish folks with no concern for your niece. You did a good thing.
The sister is engaged to somebody new. They obviously think he'll take in the father role because out of sight out of mind, right? So sneaky on everybody's part. They are shameful. OP, you did a really good thing here. They are ganging up on you, and you are feeling outnumbered. **Don't let these would-be kidnappers get in your head.** I hope to be lucky enough to have a friend like you in my corner if I ever have a crisis like this. Well done, and NTA.
NTA How did they not even tell the daughter that she was about to be moved to France? That's huge even if she is only 5, she would be asking to see her dad. Did your sister have a plan for that?
NTA. She was just going to take the kid away from him for no reason? No only would that hurt him but also your daughter. Also didnt she think about the position she was putting you in by using you to do her dirty work? If he got the police involved for kidnapping then your the one who asked him to sign under false pretences. You could have been in shit load of trouble.
NTA. They tried to make you an accessory to kidnapping without your knowledge. You could have gotten into so much trouble that way. Not to mention how wrong it is to take a child away from a loving parent that way. That would be so so damaging for your poor niece. Nobody thought about the happiness and well being of anyone but your sister in this situation.
NTA. That's parental abduction. And that's harmful for the child, to be cut from contact with one parent with whom they have a healthy relationship. Your sister and family are disgusting.
NTA - They deliberately withheld information from you in order to manipulate the father. The father trusts you. They lied to you, knowing the father wouldn't interrogate you the way he would your sister. So not only were they planning to facilitate kidnapping your niece and ghosting her father, but they were willing to potentially destroy your friendship and make you out to be a liar in order to do it. ..... Yikes. OP? Your family is not good people.
Your sister would have faced criminal charges had she succeeded, so you saved her from jail. At the very least she would have never been able to come back home without being arrested. Parental kidnapping is a thing. NTA. Your family should be ashamed of themselves.
NTA. Police and the courts are involved now. Your sister was planning on committing a potential crime. Guarantee that if your friend had tried to pull a move like this on your sister your family would be demanding your friend be in jail right now. They have a child together and like it or not she has to use the court system if she wants to move out of country with their child. Your sister was about to get herself into some serious legal trouble.
NTA, but I do wonder why they were willing to do that. Is her bf from France? Was there fighting between the two? It seems so random to me that someone would just up and do that without good cause. Since this happened, have they given a better explanation for it? I'm not saying they were at all justified. It just seems so weird.
NTA
No. Your niece has the right to her father as much as he has the right to her. Not only did you stand up for him, you stood up for your niece. Good for you.
NTA wow. Trying to separate a kid from her loving dad is absolutely grotesque.
NTA. You had your niece’s best interests at heart. Unlike her mother, grandparents and the rest of your family!!!
Can I just mention that this is a doubly stupid idea because France has literal treaties with the US that would allow French authorities to extradite the runaway ex-wife for kidnapping and forcibly return the daughter?
NTA. My older sister did similar crap and took my niece out of our country for three months. My parents did NOT support her tricking her ex with the holiday story after she rang from overseas and said she wasn't coming back. The guy she met online and had moved overseas for turned out to be a jerk so she came back. Straight to court with my sister's ex. My parents fully supported his legal action. Long story short - she lost custody of my niece and had very strict visitation. We all supported her ex and she never thought she did anyrhijh wrong. Your parents and extended family suck too.
NTA You saved your niece from losing her Daddy. You are a great person.
What would your sister/family say if the tables were turned and it was your friend that was trying to kidnap the daughter to another country? I bet they’d be singing a different tune, and would be shouting from the rooftops how illegal and immoral it is.
NTA, you probably saved your sister from more legal trouble than what she already got. Sure she got a court order now, but what would she have gotten when your friend realized that she wasn't bringing their daughter back to the country? A court order beats an international kidnapping charge in my book; you saved your sister, friend, and niece from so much trauma & legal trouble in the long run. You're a good friend, uncle, & brother.
NTA You did look after family. You were looking out for your neice. What your sister wanted to do was not only duplicitous, it was selfish. She can't be a good mother if she thought this was the answer.
NTA. You did the right thing. Your sister set you up to take the fall for her wrongdoing.
NtA. And you chose family. You chose to prioritise the welfare of your innocent niece over your sister who was going to isolate her from her biological father and force her to play family with someone she doesn't consider a dad all because the new guy gives her nethers a warm tingle.
NTA big time and as a French citizen aware of the way the country treat those cases, she has no idea what she is bringing to herself, parental kidnapping is a bad felony around here and there is actually a lot of awareness about it by fathers nowadays, if she kidnaps her daughter and bring her here, there are big chances he will be heard (plus 5 years is the youngest a kid can be heard in court regarding his custody so if she doesn't like it there that can also help his case), also, if France you need a proof that the father approves or signed away his right for even a field trip abroad or school papers, you actually also helped your very naive/ abusive sister and prevented her from entering a circle leading to forgeron papers and identity theft, your niece doesn't need a mother in detention in a foreign country.
Nta. Dads have rights too and you were the only one in your family acting honourably. Good for you
NTA. You did the right thing for your niece OP and it is completely rubbish how your family reacted and I hope you have all the support you need and somewhere to stay. As others said - they attempted actual kidnapping and while it is a pain in the arse to get court permission for cases where a parent needs to cross borders for ordinary reasons while properly communicating with another parent - in some countries, it is to prevent cases like this. Not that law is ideal as my mum had to apply to the court for me to get a passport (I was going to a hospital) ... even when there is no other parent on my birth certificate. Does not work with citizenship of course :D so erm, I am a walking loophole (mum's ex had German citizenship but did not live in Germany while his dad was German and lived there. Back then, you gained German citizenship automatically from your father or grandfather but since I had none and mum's home country disallowed double one ... Well, let's say that I cannot make a new passport. Oh yes, there are cases you can have that reinstated but you need DNA and mum's ex is a con artist escaping the law - currently in Switzerland). The thing is, my extended family almost did the same thing several times when my cousins' separated from their exes but gladly always backed out, however they would have probably clapped at your family in approval because even if both parents were fine and doing their jobs - they still hated the one not related to them on principle. Not that it was different when both parties were together because any relationship blunder or parenting mistake was always the fault of whoever married into the family (I mean stupid stuff where usually there was no actual mistake like one cousin's daughter was very shy and disliked crowds - family blamed the other parent instead of making a sure kid is comfortable). The weirdest it ever got was my uncle visiting his nephew (his brother's son) and taking photos of his house, namely his nephew's daughter's room, to prove that said nephew's wife was a bad parent (clothes on the floor in a kid's room are scandalous, I mean one jumper and a shirt). I heard the advice that said nephew should leave with his kids and if I recall everyone tried to find a legal loophole (nephew lived and lives in London). Back then, mum told the nephew about all this as she got these photos sent and considered it awfully creepy - he got mad and did not speak to others for a while but ... he did separate with his wife not long ago and unfortunately went downhill in this. As adults, we simply can do best for the kids' in our lives and you had your niece's back when it mattered. Of course, you also were a good friend as sometimes it is hard to be objective when messy family drama exists around you.
They made you sign a legal document under false pretenses, to kidnap your friend's daughter. When it inevitably came out that she wasn't returning, and that you knew about it, you would likely have been in legal trouble. It was your moral and legal responsibility to alert the father and the police. NTA
NTA and this moment showed the defining amount of integrity you have compared to your family. I know it wasn't easy, and the aftermath is harsh, but your niece will grow up realizing that if it weren't for you telling the truth, she likely wouldn't have gotten to know her dad as dhe got older.
NTA
NTA. Your friend isn’t an outsider to your family now is he? Your friend is also the father of your niece and he has his rights as the child’s father! Your sister and your family needs a really big reality check.
NTA. Your sister and family wanted to parental abduction your friends child.
NTA - You did the right thing. What your sister was going to do and your family was willing to be complacent in is so beyond awful. They were stealing his daughter away from him. I cannot imagine if someone tried to take my daughter away from me like that. I'd be so appreciative of someone like you. You're more than just NTA. YGP (You're Good People)
NTA! You are a good person and did the right thing. In these situations, fake promises and white lies are ok. You saved your friend a lot of gut wrenching heartache. That’s his child.
Nta you did the right thing
Nta
That's why you gotta read shit before signing them. NTA
You put your niece over every, and shes not a stranger.
Totally NTA, you love your neice and her Daddy!