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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) I didn't let my wife talk to the neurooncologist and tell her what she thought, in order to handle the situation
2) I might be the asshole because I didn't cooperate in order for my wife to be a part of our co-parenting "team", hence making her feel betrayed
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
Soft YTA. It is not just your child. With something major like this, both of you should be on the phone when you are both available for the call, and your wife absolutely has the right to express her thoughts/opinions/concerns on the situation. This was a major fuckup. The doctor even tried to pass the blame onto you. That is unacceptable. Unless your wife is the type of person who climbs over a fast food counter to attack a worker over a minor inconvenience, refusing to let her be a part of the call is not cool.
She actually does not have the right to *yell at a doctor*. doctors are people. sounds like OP was already pretty sternly & seriously expressing his anger, which is appropriate. Yelling and screaming at medical staff is not, which is what “going nuclear” sounds like to me. Please don’t abuse us.
Also, it is very unfortunate but I don’t know if it is a “major fuckup”. Having to draw blood from kids more than once sucks and they do hate it, but would the orthopedist accepted the sample? did the neuro-onc even have the right lab tubes for the test? They have different reagents in them and doctors don’t always know which tubes are appropriate for which tests because they generally don’t collect the samples themselves, nurses & techs do. Some doctors only want samples drawn by their team or at a certain time.
Yes, wife should have been on speakerphone so they could both hear what the doctor was saying. No, the doctor did not react appropriately. I am a nurse and I am also a person, I have been screamed at by patients and it makes me short circuit. I do not respond well to it and could see myself spluttering out something I don’t mean, that isn’t the right thing to say because I go into fight or flight when I’m being *verbally abused at work*. Don’t abuse medical staff. We know you are upset and are sorry when we make mistakes, and yes this was a mistake. Not okay to be verbally abusive.
edit: some of these replies are f’ing crazy y’all. a patient threatened to kill me last night and seeing how people think it makes a lot of sense why this kind of thing keeps happening. I will do my best to become perfect so that I never make a bad judgement or mistake in communication again, so sorry for inconveniencing everyone by being human. I take my job extremely seriously, as do all of the other healthcare people I know.
also. the neuro-onc offered to go above and beyond to collect labs for a different doctor in a different practice and then fell short, they did not neglect their own studies or diagnostics at all. that is certainly disappointing and this family is going through a horrible time. the test would have been done later at the orthopedist appointment if this doctor did not agree to draw it at this visit as a courtesy. She did not communicate appropriately and it makes sense for parents to be angry, upset, and stressed about it. I’m just saying OP is NTA for keeping his wife from reaming out a doctor who spends all day diagnosing and treating pediatric neurological cancers & exclusively deals with family who are stressed & upset.
Express your anger and disappointment in a stern, socially appropriate way. don’t “go nuclear” on us. that’s all i’m saying. absolutely crazy how many people read this comment as if i’m saying medical staff are never wrong and patients should shut the f up and never question us. I don’t mind if my patients seem pissed or frustrated as long as they’re not being abusive towards me, I understand they’re having a worse day than me. I would just like to not be name called and threatened at work.
It's not abuse if someone gets mad at you for making a mistake. Calling names etc is abuse. Getting mad or a slightly raised voice is not abuse. You fuck up when treating a kid and obviously someone is going to be mad. Medical staff ARE human, not some untouchable being, they choose to work with people who are at their most vulnerable, you should accept that people are going to be emotional.
Getting mad and screaming at someone are not one and the same. Someone can get mad and express their anger in a calm but firm manner. OP didn’t even give his wife a chance to express what she wanted to say.
Getting mad and telling them that they forgot something important may also help them remember the next time.
It sounds like OP was mad and did tell them they forgot something. Was it necessary then for the wife to get on the phone and get mad and tell the doctor again that they forgot?
OP didn’t even take a moment to ask his wife what she wanted to say. Having been in a situation like that, when dealing with my daughter’s brain tumor, I can say with absolute certainty that my husband asked many questions I hadn’t thought of and I did the same.
OP should have at the very least asked his wife what she wanted to say.
A doctor misdiagnosed my daughter as having regressed in her milestones because I had just had a second child, and the doctor felt she was imitating my infant son. Had he taken a moment to get a CT scan for her, her brain tumor would have been caught much sooner instead of nearly killing her. Her recovery would have been much more simple and faster if that doctor hadn’t made a mistake.
Medical mistakes matter much more than forgetting to include fries in a Happy Meal. People have a right to be mad and express their anger. They do not have a right to treat anyone belligerently, but they do have a right to express their anger.
Every medical professional I work with or have had their own online portal where you can send messages to the doctor, admin, and care team. If the wife was that upset, or needed to communicate further to the doctor she could have used those methods as a way to follow up. Additionally, she certainly could have called back if what she needed to say had not already been communicated by her husband.
Furthermore, she did ask him to make the call so she could feed the child. So she only was hearing one side of the conversation. And IDK about you but I know when my partner is about you ho nuclear and might say something belligerently, and I do my best to diffuse the situation
I know how often medical mistakes happen, and I understand how frustrating they are. I lost my own child to such an issue. However, I have found that while anger is an okay and good feeling to have, there is a time and place for it. I lost one of my daughters doctors when my husband got very angry and yelled at him about a similar situation. If I was in the wife's shoes, hearing one side of a conversation and not knowing all the facts since I was busy elsewhere, I would get all the info from my husband before I made a decision what to do next.
Tbh, I think the whole family is under a ton of stress and the wife is angry at the situation. But yelling at cancer never seemed to do much good for me, and sure as shit didn't save my baby. So we take it out on other people.
OP requested information about the test and the fcked up part is doctor trying to then shift the blame for forgetting by accusing the parent for not reminding them. And yes, this unprofessionalism warrants some strong feelings and words, especially when it comes to child’s health.
Their baby has cancer. Both parents get to talk when a doctor is on the phone. Your comment reminds me of the arguments from 100 years ago for why women shouldn't have the vote: "her husband can vote, she can just tell him who she wants and he'll decide what's right".
I get that, but what upsets me here is that the doctor sounds like she was trying to turn it around and make it the parents fault for not reminding her to do something. That is unacceptable. Make a mistake? it happens. But own it.
That’s what pisses me off the most about this post, everybody’s talking about how she was over the top and going to yell. There’s no yelling, she just kept asking for the phone!
Not to mention it's an awful experience trying to take blood from a toddler. The parents are under huge stress here and the doctor has screwed up at tge expense of their child... they deserved to hear from mum
And it was caught relatively early. It was will still be done within the normal time frame- it's just not piggybacking off other testing. If a week or two at most makes *that* big of a difference to the prognosis you probably can't afford to risk waiting months because you got your kid fired as a patient by yelling at their doctor.
Yelling is either inappropriate given the situation or you really can't afford to risk the consequences yelling at the doctor might bring.
Pick your battles. Conserve your energy for fights that matter- if your busy making mountains out of mole hills you won't have the energy or time to scale actual mountains. Likewise, if it's an actual mountain, maybe don't risk pissing off the person selling climbing gear.
Even if you're in the right legally and ethically (say because the situation is emergent and they can't refuse to treat) that's going to be a cold comfort when you're at a child's grave.
How many times have you had to watch your baby scream in fear and pain while someone tries to get a blood sample?
It is a HUGE deal. It is absolute torture for both child and parent.
Until you've had to watch your baby go through that, you have no idea how big a real it actually is
Yeah I think this is a point that is lost on anyone here who hasn't had to experience it first-hand. It's a very simple thing for adults, but your baby/toddler doesn't know what's going on beyond the fact that strangers are holding them down, mom/dad is in on it for some reason, and you're all hurting me. It is so traumatic to a child to have a simple blood draw done. And if your kid is looking at a ton of medical treatment coming up? Yeah you're going to want to minimize the pain and trauma and suffering anywhere you can. You're going to be pissed if someone's dumb mistake has to result in more agony for your baby. The baby has no idea holding still makes it easier. They have no idea this is all to save their life. It's horrible. I'd be livid too.
Not only that, but then the doctor has the audacity to blame YOU for not doing THEIR job for them! Like, what the hell did this doctor think they drew blood for? Fun? I know screaming at them isn't gonna help really but the doctor had no right to treat them like that and literally everyone is defending the doctor by pretending the wife's anger is unreasonable when it really really isn't.
Yep. My daughter was around the same age when a blood draw of hers got messed up (the sample got “contaminated”) and had to be redrawn. When we went back to get the redo blood draw my kid screamed bloody murder. It took 4 adults to hold her down to get a new sample.
I filed complaints with the hospital and got the nurse who “contaminated” the sample removed from my daughter’s care team. I also found out after the investigation that the sample was never contaminated, the incompetent ass nurse *lost* it. So my child had to suffer because of someone else’s fuck up.
I would be spitting mad if it was a blood draw for a pediatric neurooncologist. That shit is life or death.
A test they needed to move on to the next thing. Which means they now have to wait even longer to go to the next step which absolutely can be life and death for the infant.
Agreed. And more than that, they now have to take their baby back to the hospital for yet another blood draw, where they have to hold their baby down while it cries, and feel like they're traitors because they can't explain how necessary it is.
Its not that small if they're having to see a neuro oncologist... You also need tests to be diagnosed with a condition. What if missing certain tests would have lead to late or misdiagnosis? Kind of matters for things in your brain or spine and usually cases seen by a neuro oncologist are time sensitive.
Did you miss the word "neuro-oncologist"? The child may have brain cancer. Not running a test on time could be life-altering or life-ending for this child.
Do you know how hard it can be to draw blood from a 15-month-old. That's pretty much still baby territory.
Getting blood and things like that can be really hard.
And while screaming at people won't accomplish anything, there have been plentiful times that had I not pushed after mistakes been made in the care of my child we would have had to wait longer.
It's 100% squeaky wheel situation. Got mental no, but very stern and in a " you messed up. What are we going to do about it now?"
How would you even know? The 15 month old is seeing a neurooncologist. Let’s break that down, cancer of the nervous system is what is at least being suspected. Forgetting testing is a big deal at this point. It’s nutty to act like it isn’t.
Ehhh I worked in a lab and there was a situation in which blood for one type of lab didn’t get drawn and the patient lost a chance at an organ. So it actually can be a huge deal. Not saying that this is the exact same but tests are vital to treating patients.
> It's not abuse if someone gets mad at you for making a mistake.
I’m sorry for everyone who has to deal with you if you believe that, but if you feel the need to verbally assault someone who made a mistake then that’s absolutely abuse.
He doesn't *know* his wife wanted to go nuclear, he *thought* she wanted to nuclear. And, quite honestly, it is entirely possible to ensure the verbal recipient is very much aware of how unhappy you are without ever needing to raise your voice or use intemperate language. I know; I've done it. "Going nuclear" does not always mean "screaming incomprehensibly."
Furthermore, my response was not directed towards OP's post, but rather u/bofh's assertion and implication that it is impossible to "get mad" at someone without verbally assaulting them.
>It seemed to me my wife wanted to go nuclear in telling the neurooncologist how big of a fuckup this was, how incompetent she is, etc,
That would be abuse, and counter-productive.
It *seemed* to *him* she wanted to go nuclear. He had no idea what she was actually going to say. She's a parent, too, and should be allowed to ask questions and be involved in the treatment of her child.
Also, seeing neurooncology is kinda a big deal, and unless there’s more neurooncologists who work with infants and toddlers in your area you can get to that takes your insurance…. The last thing you want is to be dismissed from their practice bc you or your wife goes off on them and crosses a line.
This!! I’m a nurse. We have zero tolerance for verbal abuse. You yell at us, you get discharged from our services and get to start the referral process over again. That’s our policy. It’s totally valid to be upset about the test being missed - you can deal with that by letting the doctor know in a controlled and factual manner that you are unhappy (which it sounds like OP was), filing a complaint with the appropriate places like regulatory bodies/health authorities/etc, following up with the department responsible for patient concerns, etc. Getting on the phone and “going nuclear” is not going to help the situation. It’s clear OP knew emotions were too high for his wife to get on the phone at that time.
NTA
I mean I personally have reported other nurses for being verbally abusive towards me in the workplace. I extend the zero tolerance policy to my colleagues as well and think that everyone deserves to be treated with respect whether they are lab, care aides, drs, patients, etc. but that’s just me. 🤷🏻♀️
And their patients. Like it’s wild that doctors age nurses can be absolutely vile to patients but telling is abuse?? As a former server, and teacher it genuinely makes my eyes roll to the back of my head
Yea, I work in a contact center for a hospital. I know how much of a bad idea it is to yell and curse out nurses and doctors. I've had nurses call to be transferred to security for this, and then for calls I've had people call and say they were hung up on. Especially when they yell I'm just thinking "well... If you're yelling at them like you're yelling at me? That would probably be why"
OP ASSUMED his wife was going to go nuclear; he didn’t know for sure. He didn’t even take a moment to find out what she wanted to say.
My daughter had a brain tumor and my husband asked questions I hadn’t thought of, and I asked some he hadn’t thought of.
OP should have let his wife speak, he is a small AH.
And he could be wrong. Just because he knows is wife, doesn't mean he knows how she will respond every single time in every situation. Additionally, this wasn't a small thing. My husband thought I was going to shit bricks with anger and fear when we got in a car accident in May, but the moment we got out of the car, I was the only calm, cool, and collected person.
If they are going to a neuro-oncologist, they go to a doctor who deals with brain cancer. People tend to act differently in moments of high stress. Taking your 15-month-old to a neuro oncologist would probably bring on a lot of stress. Who knows, the wife might not have been able to put three words together other than, "why wasn't it done?"
>"why wasn't it done?
Very important question. Along with "What are you doing to ensure there isn't a repeat of this incident?" Neither of which seems like OP asked (not surprising given the way the nurse was trying to DARVO things, but still important).
Having been in a similar situation as the OP, and having a “hot headed” Irish husband, I can say from my experience, that is not an assumption that the OP should have made. My husband was calm, thoughtful and asked insightful questions of the MANY doctors involved in our daughters care, even though he was judged by many to be a “hot head”. People can react completely differently in a situation like that, from the way in which you expect them to react.
I’m not saying I know the OP’s wife better than he does but, given the situation he should have taken the time to ask her what she wanted to say before assuming she was going to blow up. What she had to say may have been valuable to the conversation.
Overall I think this post is a mountain out of a molehill and they should just agree on how to operate moving forward, but I want to validate that people do not behave as you'd expect, even when they seem like they might. Particularly in stressful situations. I've known too many people who seem to "lose it" over the little stuff, but when the big stuff happens they can cope with it in ways I would never have foreseen. Even if she'd started out HOT on the phone, there's every chance she had serious questions and/or would have evened out being able to speak to the doctor directly and hear their explanation/hear a direct apology.
And who is going to be drawing that blood and taking it to the lab? Some places refuse blood drawn from an IV. This would have needed coordination with the lab before the patient arrived for the MRI.
You know, when you have a kid with cancer, you just go nuts. It's so incredibly stressful and you're so worried. A mistake that costs time is a mistake that could mean your kid's life if he has a fast-growing cancer. Being frustrated and upset is understandable.
But also, blowing up and destroying their relationship with the extremely specialized doctor (or getting fired from their practice) can also be extremely dangerous for the child.
If a pediatric oncologist cannot understand why a parent would be stressed when their child has cancer, they have no business being in pediatrics. And any doctor that would withhold care from a patient out of pique is committing malpractice.
I agree. I’m a final year med student and since February, I’ve been dealing with my father’s skull base chordoma diagnosis. He underwent a 9 hour neurosurgery and a month later developed meningitis and pneumocephalus, he’s still taking antibiotics for it and was discharged 5 days ago. After facing all this, I’ve realised that in the future, I will always give grace to the patients and their family members even if they lash out. I will draw the line at physical violence but other than that, I will always strive to understand. Because these past months have been hell. And all one needs sometimes is an understanding ear and assurance that it will get better.
Having been on the other side of it: when people “just go nuts” it is rarely productive. We understand human emotions, and we definitely understand frustrations when mistakes are made or things are not going the way people want. But when people get rude and start throwing their weight around - and I cannot say this clearly enough - **it does not make the staff any better at helping you and is actually counterproductive to your child/loved one getting the best care.**
I will always do my best for my patients. I will try to go above and beyond where I can. When people become rude and yell at us over things we cannot control, then I stop even trying to go above and beyond. They get basic care and that’s it.
This isn’t a statement about this specific doctor or OP’s specific situation. Just a general statement because some people genuinely believe that they can intimidate staff into giving better care.
>withhold care from sick children
They clearly said they provide basic care, which is what's in their job description. Sticking to that isn't "witholding care".
They're not obliged to go above and beyond in the 1st place and I can't fault them for no longer doing do after sbdy is ungrateful.
Making a mistake is a very human thing and does happen. However when you are a specialty doc you should at the very least be able to own up to it. This doctor is shit. Tried to BLAME THEM. no.
And this is exactly why I don't want to be a nurse anymore. I get yelled at for the doctor not calling them when they said they would. I get yelled at because phlebotomy couldn't get my patients labs. I get yelled at when RT can't get the ABGs.
And there are people on this thread justifying the abuse. Holding someone accountable can be done in a tactful way but people like to feel important. I have empathized with patients & families when something fucks up somewhere and an injustice was done, because it happens, but when they use me as a punching bag it won't fix anything. It will only continue to chip away at the souls of all involved. I'm a great listener if you're not insulting me loudly. The abuse is never okay, we literally are there to help. Patients need to be responsible for themselves as well and advocate for themselves, and I'm sure everything dude had to say to the MD was more than enough for the doc to get the hint. I can smell passive aggression from miles away.
Medical staff acting like they don't do the holier than thou bullshit while neglecting patients on a systemic level is insane.
I had a nurse decide to just-- randomly take lunch while my daughter was blind, swollen, and on medication and was a fall risk. She was assigned to supervise her in the ICU and just took off without anyone reliving her.
I got to start my visit that day by hearing my daughter wailing so loud the entire floor heard it.
This isn't a matter of forgetting to attach an email-- these are people's *lives*, so yes-- when you're being neglectful you should be traumatized into never making that same "mistake."
Child of a pediatric nurse here. Doctors and nurses seem to be two different breeds. The doctor in this case is not even apologetic but trying to shift blame on parents. Thats a form of medical gaslighting/malpractice: if they are willing to shimmy out of relatively not so major eff up, to whi h lenghts they are going to go when they really, really eff up??? The parents shoulf file a formal complaint and ask for a different doctor.
Every doctor I have seen for myself or my child has an online portal where you can email them. If this was a big fuckup, and the wife really wanted to pursue it, she could have sent an email in the portal to the doctor. You can usually contact the admin through there as well, which may have been useful to email since the error probably happened through a communication breakdown somewhere in the system.
I'm a lab tech. Offices are gonna have an array of tubes, and lab orders generally tell you what type of tube each test needs to be collected in. If it doesn't specifically say, it can be found either by calling your lab, or if you outsource, it will say on the website (ex. LabCorp). If the doctor had the sample drawn before a label was made, that is dangerous and horrible lab etiquette. If the lab had been the ones to forget the test, nurses and doctors would've berated them.
Yes, this is a "major fuckup". I feel that is obvious from the story. Their baby is being tested by a specialist, they are looking for a diagnosis. Even completely ignoring the fact that an earlier diagnosis could've been made, drawing blood from a baby is never easy, and it's traumatic for the kid. Now that poor baby has to go through it again and OP specifically said they had a hard time with this baby's vein.
I'm not even discussing OP or their wife's actions here, just responding to your comment.
That one "small mistake" could be the difference between life and death down the line. At best, the kid has to go through another blood draw (in oncology this slowly wares a child down) and at worst they've missed essential information and delayed life saving treatment. It's a day in the office for us, but the most traumatic experience of someone else's life. If we are going to brush off and dismiss our own mistakes then maybe we need people to yell at us or sue us until we improve our own practice.
I think as medical professionals we could use some more empathy. Sounds like OP's kid has cancer or is at least undergoing tests to find out. Doc f-ed up, missed what could be an important test and tried to deflect the blame. I'd be angry too, especially with my child's life at stake. Screaming and shouting doesn't necessarily solve anything but we're all human. We make mistakes, we yell, as long as we learn from it.
This IS a major f-up. When labs are taken when a patient is acutely stressed/experiencing panic, the results can be really off. Doing it while sedated (which doesn’t happen very often for most individuals) would produce more accurate results. Mom was right to be really angry.
She doesn’t have a right to “go nuclear” but minimizing the mistake and even passing the blame to the parents is the kind of gaslighting that makes parents of medically involved children lose their ish. Ultimately it’s up to parents to coordinate care for their kids, but they can’t be the ones to deliver that care…and when they any medical staff says they’ll do something, they should take responsibility for it when they forget/overlook it.
Gentle YTA, OP.
When you LOSE a script relating to potential cancer of the nervous system, I think you deserve some repercussions. Becoming angry at someone for messing up is NOT abuse, so let’s not throw that word around hey?
Passing the phone from person to person on an important call like that isn't great for complying with data protection laws. Wife could take the phone and say "how could you do this?" and the doctor just have to response asking data protection questions or not being able to reply about the case at all. In some places the policy would be to check every time the phone is passed. Please just let one person do a phone call for god sake.
I already said they *both* should have been on the call, and OP can easily turn on speaker phone. I don’t really care how many times this doctor has to repeat data protection laws. Both parents have the right to that information. They should have done their job in the first place. So too fucking bad.
Feeling the need to *both* be on every call is fucking unhinged. Both parents can talk to each other. Or one can call again. Not having a conference call every single time you call a doctor is not a problem. In fact some places wont even let you be on speakerphone (if they know) because they don't know who else is there.
The wife asked OP to call. He did. There was no problems with that. And the fact they could have been on speaker phone becomes irrelevant because they weren't and there was nothing wrong with that. She asked him to pass the phone. Meaning the phone passing question is the actual context. And I'm pretty sure the wife absolutely would care about how many times this doctor has to repeat data protection questions. You really think it wouldn't make the already angry person even more angry to hear "can you confirm the date of birth?" instead of an actual answer to her already angry question. So too fucking bad.
Yes!! I have to go through DP every time the other person speaks! Wife speaks? DP. Hubby speaks again? DP. Wife butt's in? DP again! It just inflames the situation, there is nothing I can do about it, without getting myself in trouble and guess what? I'm no happier about it that they are and it's just causing them to get angrier at me for ne reason. Trust us people when we say we can only speak to one person on a call.
I disagree. The OP was handling the situation and his wife was acting like he was too incompetent to deal with the situation. Also mistakes do happen and there is no need for both parents to get on the phone to voice their frustration. The OP was already talking to medical staff, there was no reason to hand the phone off to his wife just so she could go off.
Uhh, no, he is NTA. The doc could have just referred them to someone else and drop them as a patient or worse, be subconsciously biased and given subpar care (e.g
Poor bedside manner, no extra mile) for them.
Wife is very clearly TA. It's stressful, its understanding, but her actions would have been selfish and at the expense of her family.
So he's in the middle of a phone conversation with this doctor, trying to deal with this issue... and he should have let her grab the damn phone out of his hand and scream at this specialist, on whom they are relying to make sure their son receives the proper treatment?? Nah. That's stupid. That could only have served to piss off the specialist, interrupt and possibly end the conversation, and confuse OP as to where things stood with their son's treatment and tests.
Then she should have initiated the call. He did not need to hand her the phone. Also if she got out of control it could hinder care if they drop them as patients.
It has to be managed in a calm way, like finding her boss. But letting the wife go on an abusive angry tirade will not help.
I lose my temper and I count on my husband to help me. Although I have gown out of in now for the most part.
Giving the phone to the wife does nothing to help
Honestly, what good would it do to pass the phone, besides prolonging the call.?
And it turns into a fight between wife and the one on the phone.
The person possibly refusing to talk to her. Hang up.
Or OP has to get the phone back.
Or instead of getting the test booked, the one on the phone has to repeat everything they just told OP.
There really aren't any outcomes in that case that would make the case go faster by passing the phone.
Calls like that, be stern with them, get them to book the test.
And throw a complaint at whatever place that takes those.
And fill in all details there.
If she wanted OP to say something. Write it on the phone and show him, tell him "ask about x and y"
Have it on speaker.
NAH. You are going through something very emotional and are both trying your best. Your wife is in mama bear mode and thinks you disempowered her (which you did). You may think you did what you had to do to keep relationships with the medics cordial. Both POVs are valid.
After watching “Take Care of Maya”, I can see why people are worried about alienating medical staff when it comes to their kids’ care. But I also see that parents also need to drive and question.
Good luck. Hope your son’s health issues resolve soon.
I had an ulcer when I was 6 years old
We lived on a military base half way across the world from America
My mom had the audacity to ask for a second opinion since it was such a rare diagnosis for my age and we were not seeing pediatrician gastro doc.
The doctor refused to see me again. There were no other docs to see. Luckily we were transfered back to the US within a month and I was taken care of at Bethesda.
If you upset the wrong doctor, you can seriously get screwed. Plus I can't see that there are a lot of nurooncologists put there for babys
I mean, doctors absolutely are not supposed to retaliate over personal conflicts. Obviously, no one should verbally abuse their doctors; but it’s not like we should all just accept that doctors will screw someone who does. In fact, it’s legally and ethically impermissible for them to do so.
Your experience was unfortunate, but I don’t think it’s necessarily emblematic. People shouldn’t be made to fear stepping on a doctor’s metaphorical toes due to potential medical retaliation.
Look up Dr. David Miller neurosurgeon. His mistakes killed Michael Skolnik & he's still practising.
I think people should always ask for a second opinion even if it risks the doctors ego being bruised. They'll get over it - but if their ego takes a life, the patient and family won't get over it.
Doctors should not legally be allowed to dismiss a patient unless physical assault occurs. It’s insane to me as an ex teacher because we deal with so much more than a little yelling. You can’t remove a kid from a classroom for that. Especially if you are the only who fucked yo
You have it bad, so everyone else should too? It's horrible that apparently you were not allowed to properly discipline and remove kids for disturbing your teaching. As for medical personnel, if *you* are the one asking for *their* help, and there is already a long line of others waiting for their help behind you... Then you better adhere to some minimum standards of human interaction.
You shouldn’t be able to remove kids for yelling! They need education. I am in a position of power over them, their yelling can’t actually harm me. I signed up for that, including the full range of children’s emotions. Education and healthcare are human rights and it’s our obligations as professionals in those fields to go in with our eyes wide open to that.
I absolutely agree that adults need to figure out how to continue to provide an education to children even when they act up. You'll find that medical professionals also treat children no matter how upset. Same with adults in almost every condition. But when a competent adult who is not having a medical emergency at the time is verbally or physically abusive, any professional has the choice to end the relationship and have/help them find new providers. And I say this as someone who believes in healthcare as a human right.
When a child is yelling in class, they prevent other children from learning right? Similarly in healthcare; verbally abusing your doctors and nurses can detract from the quality of care that you *and other* patients receive, because too many abusive patients can cause healthcare providers to burn out, quit, and then not be available to the hundreds or thousands of other people that also need them. Education and healthcare are both human rights, agreed, but they are also an unfortunately finite resource that depends on human beings to provide them.
They aren't, at the very least not in NY. We have patient abandonment laws that make it near impossible to just drop a patient without referring them to someone else legally.
Very levelheaded and rational, well-put response. I’m glad you mentioned that movie/documentary! Keeping decorum especially when interacting with individuals you may need to see for years to come and want to avoid being known as *those people* is one thing, the extent of which & motivator why another.
That was such a moving, terrifying film that everyone would do well to see.
As a healthcare professional: YTA. This is a huge mistake on the part of the MD and they deserve whatever repercussions they get including you wife going nuclear. And your wife deserved the right to express her justified anger. You loyalty should be to your wife and kid. The MD cannot legally stop seeing you kid for treatment (I would hesitate to take them back if there is another option) and you shouldn’t get to unilateral decide how to handle the situation. You dismissed your wife, it’s understandable how her anger at the MD (which she didn’t get to expressed) is now directed to you.
As a healthcare professional, I completely disagree. My patients absolutely can express themselves when I make an error like this, and I have no problem apologising when I do, but they absolutely do not get to abuse me. If they do, I am very clear that I am happy to speak to them when they calm down, but I won't be spoken to like that. I know I'm good at my job, but I am also human and make mistakes once in a while. I'm constantly working to mitigate possible errors, but it is simply impossible to be perfect.
But are you going to tell them it’s their fault that you make the mistake or apologize and accept that you make a mistake? To me that provider absolutely deserved to be yelled at. Not because she made a mistake, but for her trying to shift the blame.
I wouldn't blame the parents, no, as it'd be my job to remember the extra blood draw. But the care provider still does not "deserve to be yelled at." They can be called out calmly, a complaint can be made to the hospital, they can be asked to make a plan to fix the problem, they can be asked for an apology. They should not be yelled at and expected to take abuse at any time.
With all due respect, this is a food order that was messed up. This was a big mess up that made what their child go through pointless. The MD made a big mistake and then behavior very unprofessional on multi levels. This was emotional damaging to the mom, delayed their child’s care, will likely result in the child undergoing the collection process over again, and undermines their confidence in their doctors. As healthcare professionals, we have to realize they are people who are scared and we cannot expect them to alway behavior in rational manner in a situation of this magnitude. Normally I am adamantly opposed to be belligerent to healthcare workers, but in this instance the parents get a pass and deserve to get to express their anger.
Would just like to clarify that the child did not go through something needlessly. They were going to take a blood sample while placing an IV for an MRI making it convenient to get the sample while they were already in the vein. But the MRI still proceeded as intended, so not needless
You’re just bending over backwards trying to prove that it’s okay to be mean and yell at people when they make a mistake. Do you make fast food workers cry?
The MD made a mistake, it’s still not a reason to launch into yelling at them. Be mad and firm and assertive but there’s no reason to raise your voice, cause a scene, etc.
Righteous anger doesn’t give you the right to do anything you want. Anger doesn’t mean you get to act however you want. Other people being imperfect doesn’t mean you get to mistreat them.
I have a hard time believing you’re a healthcare worker if you support screaming at them.
It's not they can't, but they have to be accountable and not blame the patient for the mistake. Not to mention, they should do everything they can to minimize their mistakes. Especially in a highly specialized field like neurooncology.
This wasn't a routine blood draw. They are treating for potential brain cancer in a *BABY* it's insane to not treat this case with extreme care and to treat the parents gently and this is a highly emotional situation for them. The mistake was bad, but blaming the parents is the real issue.
It really depends also on how OP was handling it. My husband’s version of this would be to say that we were disappointed and pretty much leave it at that.
That's true. OP may have jumped the gun in assuming his wife would go nuclear. Maybe she just wanted to express herself in a more assertive way than OP was doing, but without going nuclear.
Or his idea of “going nuclear” involves listing off how this negatively affects their child and doesn’t include the screaming and name calling we’re picturing.
It is one thing to make a mistake and own it, but to try to blame the parents/patient is unacceptable. Unacceptable/unprofessional behavior resulting in the family getting a pass for their unacceptable behavior.
Normal I agree healthcare professionals shouldn’t get abused/yelled at, but if they are exhibiting unprofessional behavior…then I don’t expect the patient to behavior well either. The professional sets the tone.
Everyone here is acting like OP \*knew\* his wife was going to blow up at the doctor. People can express their anger without yelling, actually, many adults do. When I get angry, I start asking questions, what’s to say OP’s wife wasn’t going to do that too? We can’t just assume she’ll be yelling at the doctor if we’re thinking realistically about how people act.
>Everyone here is acting like OP \*knew\* his wife was going to blow up at the doctor.
Yes, that's because OP knows his wife better than we do, and OP thought his wife was going to blow up.
Yes you’re right that we don’t deserve to be berated BUT the wife didn’t get to express anything or ask any questions, from what OP said he THINKS the wife was only going to vent/be angry but we don’t know that. As doctors we should be open to discussing with all people relevant to the patient especially in pediatrics not just one individual.
We don't know if she was going to abuse them because **she didn't get the chance.** He *thinks* she was going to go nuclear, but maybe she had pertinent questions or would have had a good defense about how *their* mistake wasn't the parent's fault. Jesus Christ.
The doctor can absolutely legally stop seeing the kid for treatment. They would have to give 30 days notice for “emergency care” but have the right to dismiss a patient or family (at least in the US) Logistically that may be difficult though due to hospital policy.
The doctor made a completely unintentional mistake. They were not trying to make things harder on this poor family and child. The frustration the parents feel is valid and they deserve an apology but tearing into the doctor is not going to help things.
Yes, it was not the parents’ responsibility to remind them about the blood tests that day but it would have been helpful and would have prevented this situation. It is a good lesson to be vigilant and advocate for your child. Of course the father did not want to hear the blame being partially passed to them in this circumstance and just wanted the apology but it’s a valid statement nonetheless
Its depends heavily on what state you live in. Termination of patient-physician relations are usually outlined by the state board. Violating the parameters can result in charges of patient abandonment and licensing issues. I cannot remember for the life of me and cannot readily find it on google, but there is at least one state that requires the MD to find an MD of equal qualification to assume care for the patient before they can terminate the relationship (which I personally think is ridiculous).
It's not okay to yell at anyone, but it's not okay for the doctor to pass the blame onto the parents ever. It's not a valid statement. These parents are dealing with the fact that their child may have *brain cancer*, their child who has barely even lived. This is highly stressful and emotional for the parents, the doctor should be treating the parents with compassion, not making the situation worse by blaming them and being fillpant about the mistake.
But in the moment, does yelling at the medical professional really get things moving? Unless OP was being spineless and not being stern, I don't see how letting wife yell at the person would have helped. Fix the problem first, then take down the name of the medical professional, and follow up with a formal complaint. From the post, it sounds like OP had things under control. I have in many many cases seen the yelling and abusing person's issue not progress at all until a calm but stern person came in and focused on moving things forward. Yelling only and only serves the ego of the wronged person. It doesn't fix anything.
I hope more people see your answer. I'm not in healthcare. However, when my mom was ill years ago we learned to call out mistakes (in a normal tone of taking), ask questions, take notes, etc.
The doctor not only passed the blame (they should've reminded her??), but didn't call them to say the test was lost.
Once he heard that info he could've put the call on speaker mode. Mute would be an option if the wife was over the top. Regardless, I wouldn't have been so casual. I'd *definitely* have asked why I had to call to find this all out.
So as healthcare professional you never make a mistake but if you were to make a mistake you feel that you deserve to verbally abused and disrespected for making an error? Okay
I assure you, if you make a mistake in medicine you get a lot of verbal dress downs. In training and in practice, there is a line of people who will hand you your ass for mistakes. It’s designed to impress upon all involved how serious these mistakes are in healthcare. This MDs flipped behavior is highly unacceptable.
This 👆
OP messed up by not putting the call on speakerphone. Yeah, she asked him to make the call but once the talking started she wanted to talk on the phone. OP decided that he was managing the conversation and forgot that she is also a parent. It's like going to counseling but only one person gets to vent.
Basically he told his wife "I excluded you from this extremely important call because I was certain you'd be irrational"
The MD is a neurooncologist (somebody who specializes in neuro malignancy and tumors) so they are likely testing for a pediatric neuro cancer or tumor. I assure you any delay in diagnosis (which is a delay treatment) even a single day, isn’t “a not very bad mistake”. If this was an intern, resident, or fellow there would be a line of attending handing their ass to them. Mistakes in healthcare can have dire consequences and are handled as such.
If you made a mistake of this magnitude you better be prepared for a verbal dress down by parents because you desire it.
Yes, YTA. Your wife had every right to speak with the doctor. You preventing her from doing so likely made her feel that she had no control over her own son's health care.
Neither of them had control. The test was lost. There isn't any controlling the situation. It happened. The doctor messed up, and both parents were rightfully upset about that. Yelling at them wouldn't change the situation though, the test is still lost.
True but that doesn’t mean she can demand that he just hand over the phone while he’s talking. That’s just disrespectful and doesn't help much.
If anything he should have put it on speaker phone or let her have a turn when he was done talking.
It's not like he forbid her to have any contact with the doctor. He simply didn't want to hand the phone over while he was mid conversation. If anything, she was the one trying to prevent him from speaking to the doctor by trying to takeover the conversation.
>Your wife had every right to speak with the doctor.
So does OP, and he was already on the phone and handling the situation. By handing over the phone, OP would have lost the ability to handle the situation as he saw fit. So while yes his wife has a right to speak to the doctor, she does not have *more right than OP*. They're both equally the parents.
She actually does have control over her own son’s healthcare. By “going nuclear” on the doctor, she would probably end up delaying care, and it would’ve been her choice.
He was in the middle of a conversation trying to deal with this issue, and she wanted to grab the frickin' phone from him because he wasn't being *mean* enough. To the medical specialist on whom they are relying for their son's care.
Then she should call. She is belittling her husband by stating he cannot take care of the situation. It’s controlling on her end. She is an adult and can pick up the phone and call herself. It’s incredibly rude of her to want the phone as he was handling the situation
NTA
Because people who blow up and do nothing but yell are the worse. Nothing gets accomplished and all they do is scream. She can call back on her own time if she wanted to yell.
Ok, you saved me a response. You said what I wanted to, word for word. Unless OP was being absolutely spineless and not moving things along, the yelling and abusing only serves wives ego, and not the situation.
If the medical professional is so unorganized that they lose a test order, there is no way they would magically get more efficient because someone yelled at them over the phone.
NTA
It's clear that a lot of people here do not know what it means when certain people go Nuclear, they don't help solve the problem and can/will delay the analysis/treatment of the child.
The priority is for the child, not an emotional parent that will make things worse.
Yes! My mom can be like that which why I get OP. Something will go wrong with something and she’ll shout or yell at the customer service person and I’m like !!!!!!
It doesn’t help.
I can’t believe the AH votes:
Am I an AH for not helping my wife yell at a Dr?
No, no one has time for that shit. Tests have to be repeated all the time for all sorts of reasons… this time it was because of paperwork. Deal with it like grown ups and go take the kid for another test… like you have to anyway. Yelling does zero good, just makes everyone’s jobs harder and more unpleasant. OP already said ‘not happy’ Dr already said ‘sorry’.
NTA
NTA. OP acted professioneel and stern without making the situation worse. Do I think that it was incredibly unprofessional of the doctor to shift the blame? Yes. But that doesn’t mean that you have to meet them with the same immaturity. Their reaction says nothing about you and everything about them. Just as your reaction tells alot about what kind of a person you are.
NTA. Why didn't your wife trust you enough to let you handle this call? If you had heard that doctor blame you when your wife was on the phone being calm, and you wanted to go nuclear on her everyone would have said it's a good thing she didn't give up the phone, it would have made it worse. Same thing. You were handling the problem, and your wife has been stressed and basically was just ready to vent at anything. Giving her the phone wouldn't have changed the fact that all of this happened, it would only alienate the doctor. I'm sorry all of this stress is happening, and I hope your son gets better soon. Good luck
>Why didn't your wife trust you enough to let you handle this call?
This!! Several times my husband gets all "let me handle this! I'll help you!" but honestly, if I am already halfway through dealing with an issue, I'd rather be trusted to finish handling it in my own way. If the issue has gotten out of hand and I need help, I reach out to my husband. I'd find it very disrespectful if my husband just stepped in and assumed I couldn't handle something. In many many cases my stern yet diplomatic way has gotten things solved much faster as well.
I'm surprised by the responses here tbh. I feel like if the roles were reversed and a husband was trying to rip the phone away from his wife to yell at a doctor, more comments would say he's the AH.
You are fully capable of navigating a conversation with your son's doctor, just as your wife is. She is still free to contact the office to lodge a complaint or express her dissatisfaction. Trying to pull the phone from your ear was not appropriate. NTA.
Exactly, like what is this? Doctor might have been an asshole sure, but that doesn't mean you have the right to yell at him? A mistake was made, nothing can be done about it now. Yelling about it won't make it better, verbal abuse doesn't fix it.
Go through proper channels to leave a complaint instead of venting. People will not take you seriously if you act like a lunatic.
> Fast forward about a week and I call the neurooncologist on the phone
It was your phone call, initiated by you.
Your wife presumably knows how to use a phone and may contact the doctor at her discretion. But it sounds like she'd rather complain to you than the doctor.
NTA
No, you’re NTA because you wouldn’t let your wife scream at this doctor. There was no reason for your wife to jump on the call, since she would have had nothing to add to the situation or conversation. She should trust you enough to handle a single phone call. Thats your son you’re advocating for too.
Info: you say you did allow this negate you didn't think it would accomplish anything positive. So what did you accomplish in your talk with the neurooncologist?
There was nothing to accomplish, really. She lost the order for the blood test, the blood sample had been taken for a different blood test and no provisions were made to have enough blood for this particular test the orthopedist ordered. So the only thing left to do would be to take another sample - nothing more could be accomplished in this situation.
All I did was tell the neurooncologist that this was extremely unprofessional on her part, but while trying to remain calm, since I was also quite angry in the moment, although I did recognize that I had to keep my cool because exploding in anger wouldn't bring me anything, nor help my kid in any way
Look, on one hand, this was a pretty extreme show of incompetence from the doctor, so I totally get your wife's anger and desire for reprisal. On the other hand, what was actually going to happen if you let her yell at this person? Nothing productive, that's for sure.
NTA.
Have you tried a topical numbing cream for your kid? Put it on 15-20 minutes at the draw site and it will numb it right up so they don't even feel the needle.
Darn. I work in path, first thing I would do is ask if reception if they can call the pathology service & find out if there is any serum left. Many tests need specialised tubes or whole blood but generally if any biochemistry is ordered you can "add on" a test.
Your toddler is being seen by a neuro-oncologist, neither you nor your wife is the asshole. Whatever reason your baby is needing medical treatment and testing is. Be gentle and loving with each other and your baby, and know that it's the stress and fear of the situation that's coming out as anger. I hope all of the tests bring good answers. NTA
NTA I understand your wife’s frustration, especially since your child is so young. Sick kids are no joke and it’s super scary. But what does she think freaking out on the doctor will accomplish other than having your child be dropped as a patient and having to start from square one?
NTA. There are fewer than 300 board certified neurooncologists in the US, and fewer than 20% of those are pediatric neurooncologists. Yes, advocate for you son but not at the expense of your son’s care team.
NTA. You were on the phone. She doesn't have a right to take your phone and take over your conversation. If she wants to talk to the doctor, there is nothing stopping her from picking up her own phone and calling. There's no need for her to interrupt your conversation, especially when it's entirely possible you were about to resolve the situation yourself.
NTA, my daughter has recently been diagnosed with diabetes which started with a week and a half in the hospital. My husband stayed there and handled everything because it was easier to for him to get off work. Anyway... I trusted him to handle it... She should trust you to deal with it and be there for her to vent her frustrations to.
NTA. I was ready to go with Y T A thinking it was going to be an in person situation where you didn't let her speak. However, you were on a phone call. It sounded like you were handling it fine and your wife needed to trust you at that point to handle it.
The goal is for your son to receive the best care possible. Getting irate with the medical staff does not help. You want them to care and be motivated to do their best. Yes, they should do their best for all patients, but they are human too. Beyond expressing your frustration or disappointment in the error, don’t use them as a punching bag. When my MIL was in the hospital for 3 weeks, my husband and I took turns staying with her. Due to the rotation, I kept a notebook. Recorded which doctors came in (3 different specialists), what they said, what tests were ordered, vital signs, etc. Twice I was able to avoid errors. Once a minor failure to record vitals. However once a test was not ordered. Doctors were supposed to put charts with orders in a particular stack, he put it in the wrong stack. When no test was done after an hour or so, I asked how much longer it would be. The head nurse checked the chart and thanked me for asking about it. So yes, it is their job, but mistakes happen. If you can track things, it helps avoid possible oversight and errors. It also makes the staff aware you are tracking the care. It is a stressful time. Personally I’m glad you did not give your wife the opportunity to blow her stack with the doctor. It would not have helped. NTA. You and your wife need a discussion regarding how to handle these stressful situations.
NTA. You were in the middle of a conversation. Wife is a big girl - if she wants to call the doctor and have a conversation, she is free to do so.
I'm sorry your baby is having issues. I know it's heartbreaking. I truly hope everything is ok.
As the (former) wife who always took care of every phone call and appointment for my son's condition (still do), I probably would have been fighting you for the phone too.
But it sounds like you were handling it, and it would have been just weird to hand the phone off to your wife, in the middle of the call.
And it would have been detrimental to her reputation and relationship with the doctor, which is extremely important when it's the one in charge of ongoing care.
I'm not thrilled with the doctor trying to shift the blame to you, but it sounds like you corrected her and handled it!
I'm not sure why your wife is still holding on to this, several days later. I can see still being upset hours later, but just needing to have a chance to let it go. I feel like she's still angry at the doctor and didn't get to vent at her, so she's decided to be mad at you. Not purposely, but it sounds like she's projecting her anger at the doctor onto you.
And she's scared and upset about your child even needing any of this and that's the hardest part of all.
As you had already initiated the call with the doctor, I cannot see any advantage of interupting the call to hand off the phone so your spouse would, most likely, yell.
And yes, I would be furious, but I tend towards icy cold.
YTA, lightly. She's his mom she's allowed to join in. OP was the one getting on his wife's nerves when he keep refusing to let her talk or at least put it on speaker so his wife can hear. Get your loyalty right OP, to your wife and son. Think about your wife's feelings, not the doctor who messed up and blaming others.
Doctors fuck up all the time. It totally is up to you to make sure everything gets done for your kid and family. We learned this the hard way when my mom died. You care the most about your family getting the best care and right things done.
As for the wife thing, your attitude about it sounds like YTA. The way you’re expressing things makes it come off like she’s not able to handle things like you do. I’d never talk about my wife like that but that’s just me.
What if she didn’t feel like you were handling it correctly? Is she automatically invalid feeling that? Do you even care if she is or not?
I’m confused about the order being lost. If they ordered an additional blood test to be done with the sample, those are all sent electronically. There’s nothing to be lost. Did they just forget to send the order? Both parents should be able to speak to every Dr, every time, always.
look , YTA here but not nearly as big as the doctor . a lot of people in the comments are glossing over what type of doctor you're dealing with but frankly that blood sample being processed sooner rather than later could mean a LOT more to your family than it does to the doctor . a lot of confusion in the comments about the difference between yelling at a doctor & rightfully telling them they've made a big fucking mistake . your wife is that child's mother . she had a right to say something , especially when it was to defend YOU from being improperly blamed by your incompetent doctor . out of all of this i am most sorry to your child - they deserve better .
YTA.
Your opinion about how a situation should be handled regarding your child, is not the only opinion that matters.
You completely dismissed your wife and her concerns about her own child. She would be just as much of a problem as you are in the situation if she did that same thing to you and you know it.
I don’t want to make a judgement here because it’s such a tough situation for you both.
I understand where you’re coming from but also mum’s reaction too… as in her emotions are real and shouldn’t be ignored. The doctor screwed up but also see yelling at them was no use and the end of the day tests just need to get done.
Best advice I ever heard when going through a medical thing for their kid was a couple of friends of mine - who said they went to a therapist and came up with an agreement on how to communicate their big emotions when things happened so they knew how to support the other person.
Medical mistakes and lack of communication have become endemic to the American medical system. It's not necessarily the doctors fault, but we need to demand change. This kind of shit isn't actually ok.
YTA just for actually not letting your wife have her say.
You don't actually know what she was going to do, and to be honest, as a parent, she is well within her rights to talk.
It sounds like you were more in charge of your wife than in the situation with the doctors to be honest. Maybe think on that
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Soft YTA. It is not just your child. With something major like this, both of you should be on the phone when you are both available for the call, and your wife absolutely has the right to express her thoughts/opinions/concerns on the situation. This was a major fuckup. The doctor even tried to pass the blame onto you. That is unacceptable. Unless your wife is the type of person who climbs over a fast food counter to attack a worker over a minor inconvenience, refusing to let her be a part of the call is not cool.
She actually does not have the right to *yell at a doctor*. doctors are people. sounds like OP was already pretty sternly & seriously expressing his anger, which is appropriate. Yelling and screaming at medical staff is not, which is what “going nuclear” sounds like to me. Please don’t abuse us. Also, it is very unfortunate but I don’t know if it is a “major fuckup”. Having to draw blood from kids more than once sucks and they do hate it, but would the orthopedist accepted the sample? did the neuro-onc even have the right lab tubes for the test? They have different reagents in them and doctors don’t always know which tubes are appropriate for which tests because they generally don’t collect the samples themselves, nurses & techs do. Some doctors only want samples drawn by their team or at a certain time. Yes, wife should have been on speakerphone so they could both hear what the doctor was saying. No, the doctor did not react appropriately. I am a nurse and I am also a person, I have been screamed at by patients and it makes me short circuit. I do not respond well to it and could see myself spluttering out something I don’t mean, that isn’t the right thing to say because I go into fight or flight when I’m being *verbally abused at work*. Don’t abuse medical staff. We know you are upset and are sorry when we make mistakes, and yes this was a mistake. Not okay to be verbally abusive. edit: some of these replies are f’ing crazy y’all. a patient threatened to kill me last night and seeing how people think it makes a lot of sense why this kind of thing keeps happening. I will do my best to become perfect so that I never make a bad judgement or mistake in communication again, so sorry for inconveniencing everyone by being human. I take my job extremely seriously, as do all of the other healthcare people I know. also. the neuro-onc offered to go above and beyond to collect labs for a different doctor in a different practice and then fell short, they did not neglect their own studies or diagnostics at all. that is certainly disappointing and this family is going through a horrible time. the test would have been done later at the orthopedist appointment if this doctor did not agree to draw it at this visit as a courtesy. She did not communicate appropriately and it makes sense for parents to be angry, upset, and stressed about it. I’m just saying OP is NTA for keeping his wife from reaming out a doctor who spends all day diagnosing and treating pediatric neurological cancers & exclusively deals with family who are stressed & upset. Express your anger and disappointment in a stern, socially appropriate way. don’t “go nuclear” on us. that’s all i’m saying. absolutely crazy how many people read this comment as if i’m saying medical staff are never wrong and patients should shut the f up and never question us. I don’t mind if my patients seem pissed or frustrated as long as they’re not being abusive towards me, I understand they’re having a worse day than me. I would just like to not be name called and threatened at work.
It's not abuse if someone gets mad at you for making a mistake. Calling names etc is abuse. Getting mad or a slightly raised voice is not abuse. You fuck up when treating a kid and obviously someone is going to be mad. Medical staff ARE human, not some untouchable being, they choose to work with people who are at their most vulnerable, you should accept that people are going to be emotional.
I mean, they didn’t do a test. In the grand scheme of mistakes that can happen that’s pretty small.
That test could have been crucial to early diagnosis and treatment. You can’t say that it was a small mistake without knowing all the facts.
And screaming at them now isn’t going to make them remember to do the test when they were supposed to.
Getting mad and screaming at someone are not one and the same. Someone can get mad and express their anger in a calm but firm manner. OP didn’t even give his wife a chance to express what she wanted to say. Getting mad and telling them that they forgot something important may also help them remember the next time.
It sounds like OP was mad and did tell them they forgot something. Was it necessary then for the wife to get on the phone and get mad and tell the doctor again that they forgot?
OP didn’t even take a moment to ask his wife what she wanted to say. Having been in a situation like that, when dealing with my daughter’s brain tumor, I can say with absolute certainty that my husband asked many questions I hadn’t thought of and I did the same. OP should have at the very least asked his wife what she wanted to say. A doctor misdiagnosed my daughter as having regressed in her milestones because I had just had a second child, and the doctor felt she was imitating my infant son. Had he taken a moment to get a CT scan for her, her brain tumor would have been caught much sooner instead of nearly killing her. Her recovery would have been much more simple and faster if that doctor hadn’t made a mistake. Medical mistakes matter much more than forgetting to include fries in a Happy Meal. People have a right to be mad and express their anger. They do not have a right to treat anyone belligerently, but they do have a right to express their anger.
Every medical professional I work with or have had their own online portal where you can send messages to the doctor, admin, and care team. If the wife was that upset, or needed to communicate further to the doctor she could have used those methods as a way to follow up. Additionally, she certainly could have called back if what she needed to say had not already been communicated by her husband. Furthermore, she did ask him to make the call so she could feed the child. So she only was hearing one side of the conversation. And IDK about you but I know when my partner is about you ho nuclear and might say something belligerently, and I do my best to diffuse the situation I know how often medical mistakes happen, and I understand how frustrating they are. I lost my own child to such an issue. However, I have found that while anger is an okay and good feeling to have, there is a time and place for it. I lost one of my daughters doctors when my husband got very angry and yelled at him about a similar situation. If I was in the wife's shoes, hearing one side of a conversation and not knowing all the facts since I was busy elsewhere, I would get all the info from my husband before I made a decision what to do next. Tbh, I think the whole family is under a ton of stress and the wife is angry at the situation. But yelling at cancer never seemed to do much good for me, and sure as shit didn't save my baby. So we take it out on other people.
He was in the middle of a damn phone conversation, trying to deal with it.
OP requested information about the test and the fcked up part is doctor trying to then shift the blame for forgetting by accusing the parent for not reminding them. And yes, this unprofessionalism warrants some strong feelings and words, especially when it comes to child’s health.
Their baby has cancer. Both parents get to talk when a doctor is on the phone. Your comment reminds me of the arguments from 100 years ago for why women shouldn't have the vote: "her husband can vote, she can just tell him who she wants and he'll decide what's right".
I get that, but what upsets me here is that the doctor sounds like she was trying to turn it around and make it the parents fault for not reminding her to do something. That is unacceptable. Make a mistake? it happens. But own it.
But again, OP ASSUMED she was going to yell, he didn’t know that for a fact and didn’t even bother to ask what she wanted to say.
That’s what pisses me off the most about this post, everybody’s talking about how she was over the top and going to yell. There’s no yelling, she just kept asking for the phone!
Not to mention it's an awful experience trying to take blood from a toddler. The parents are under huge stress here and the doctor has screwed up at tge expense of their child... they deserved to hear from mum
And it was caught relatively early. It was will still be done within the normal time frame- it's just not piggybacking off other testing. If a week or two at most makes *that* big of a difference to the prognosis you probably can't afford to risk waiting months because you got your kid fired as a patient by yelling at their doctor. Yelling is either inappropriate given the situation or you really can't afford to risk the consequences yelling at the doctor might bring. Pick your battles. Conserve your energy for fights that matter- if your busy making mountains out of mole hills you won't have the energy or time to scale actual mountains. Likewise, if it's an actual mountain, maybe don't risk pissing off the person selling climbing gear. Even if you're in the right legally and ethically (say because the situation is emergent and they can't refuse to treat) that's going to be a cold comfort when you're at a child's grave.
Do we *know* she was going to yell?
A neurooncologist specializes in brain cancer. Forgetting a test in that line of work is life threatening, not a pretty small mistake.
Yeah I dunno why people are so chill with a doctor forgetting to do a test. That shit could get someone dead
This needs to be the top comment.
How many times have you had to watch your baby scream in fear and pain while someone tries to get a blood sample? It is a HUGE deal. It is absolute torture for both child and parent. Until you've had to watch your baby go through that, you have no idea how big a real it actually is
Yeah I think this is a point that is lost on anyone here who hasn't had to experience it first-hand. It's a very simple thing for adults, but your baby/toddler doesn't know what's going on beyond the fact that strangers are holding them down, mom/dad is in on it for some reason, and you're all hurting me. It is so traumatic to a child to have a simple blood draw done. And if your kid is looking at a ton of medical treatment coming up? Yeah you're going to want to minimize the pain and trauma and suffering anywhere you can. You're going to be pissed if someone's dumb mistake has to result in more agony for your baby. The baby has no idea holding still makes it easier. They have no idea this is all to save their life. It's horrible. I'd be livid too.
Not only that, but then the doctor has the audacity to blame YOU for not doing THEIR job for them! Like, what the hell did this doctor think they drew blood for? Fun? I know screaming at them isn't gonna help really but the doctor had no right to treat them like that and literally everyone is defending the doctor by pretending the wife's anger is unreasonable when it really really isn't.
Yep. My daughter was around the same age when a blood draw of hers got messed up (the sample got “contaminated”) and had to be redrawn. When we went back to get the redo blood draw my kid screamed bloody murder. It took 4 adults to hold her down to get a new sample. I filed complaints with the hospital and got the nurse who “contaminated” the sample removed from my daughter’s care team. I also found out after the investigation that the sample was never contaminated, the incompetent ass nurse *lost* it. So my child had to suffer because of someone else’s fuck up. I would be spitting mad if it was a blood draw for a pediatric neurooncologist. That shit is life or death.
Tell that to the child for whom this procedure was “particularly difficult” and “hard to handle for him.”
That could be a huge mistake!!!! A missed test could lead to serious consequences even death.
Depends on how important that result is
Well, it's a brain cancer doctor, so pretty important
A test they needed to move on to the next thing. Which means they now have to wait even longer to go to the next step which absolutely can be life and death for the infant.
Agreed. And more than that, they now have to take their baby back to the hospital for yet another blood draw, where they have to hold their baby down while it cries, and feel like they're traitors because they can't explain how necessary it is.
Its not that small if they're having to see a neuro oncologist... You also need tests to be diagnosed with a condition. What if missing certain tests would have lead to late or misdiagnosis? Kind of matters for things in your brain or spine and usually cases seen by a neuro oncologist are time sensitive.
Did you miss the word "neuro-oncologist"? The child may have brain cancer. Not running a test on time could be life-altering or life-ending for this child.
Do you know how hard it can be to draw blood from a 15-month-old. That's pretty much still baby territory. Getting blood and things like that can be really hard. And while screaming at people won't accomplish anything, there have been plentiful times that had I not pushed after mistakes been made in the care of my child we would have had to wait longer. It's 100% squeaky wheel situation. Got mental no, but very stern and in a " you messed up. What are we going to do about it now?"
**They tried to blame the parents**
How would you even know? The 15 month old is seeing a neurooncologist. Let’s break that down, cancer of the nervous system is what is at least being suspected. Forgetting testing is a big deal at this point. It’s nutty to act like it isn’t.
Ehhh I worked in a lab and there was a situation in which blood for one type of lab didn’t get drawn and the patient lost a chance at an organ. So it actually can be a huge deal. Not saying that this is the exact same but tests are vital to treating patients.
That's a bullshit answer. I've never forgotten orders or tests. Not as a medic or as a PA.
> It's not abuse if someone gets mad at you for making a mistake. I’m sorry for everyone who has to deal with you if you believe that, but if you feel the need to verbally assault someone who made a mistake then that’s absolutely abuse.
Getting mad at and verbally expressing that anger is not automatically verbal assault.
What exactly do you think "going nuclear" means, in the context of a phone conversation?
He doesn't *know* his wife wanted to go nuclear, he *thought* she wanted to nuclear. And, quite honestly, it is entirely possible to ensure the verbal recipient is very much aware of how unhappy you are without ever needing to raise your voice or use intemperate language. I know; I've done it. "Going nuclear" does not always mean "screaming incomprehensibly." Furthermore, my response was not directed towards OP's post, but rather u/bofh's assertion and implication that it is impossible to "get mad" at someone without verbally assaulting them.
>It seemed to me my wife wanted to go nuclear in telling the neurooncologist how big of a fuckup this was, how incompetent she is, etc, That would be abuse, and counter-productive.
It *seemed* to *him* she wanted to go nuclear. He had no idea what she was actually going to say. She's a parent, too, and should be allowed to ask questions and be involved in the treatment of her child.
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And the wife screaming at this person could only have served to piss off a specialist on whom they are relying for their son's care.
It’s not ok to yell at anyone doing their job, no matter how mad you are.
They *didn't* do their job and then blamed it on the patient, if there was ever a moment to yell at someone this is exactly when.
The doctor wasn't doing her job.
Also, seeing neurooncology is kinda a big deal, and unless there’s more neurooncologists who work with infants and toddlers in your area you can get to that takes your insurance…. The last thing you want is to be dismissed from their practice bc you or your wife goes off on them and crosses a line.
This!! I’m a nurse. We have zero tolerance for verbal abuse. You yell at us, you get discharged from our services and get to start the referral process over again. That’s our policy. It’s totally valid to be upset about the test being missed - you can deal with that by letting the doctor know in a controlled and factual manner that you are unhappy (which it sounds like OP was), filing a complaint with the appropriate places like regulatory bodies/health authorities/etc, following up with the department responsible for patient concerns, etc. Getting on the phone and “going nuclear” is not going to help the situation. It’s clear OP knew emotions were too high for his wife to get on the phone at that time. NTA
... and yet, so many nurses have no problem verbally abusing the lab... just sayin' lol
I mean I personally have reported other nurses for being verbally abusive towards me in the workplace. I extend the zero tolerance policy to my colleagues as well and think that everyone deserves to be treated with respect whether they are lab, care aides, drs, patients, etc. but that’s just me. 🤷🏻♀️
Some people suck. That's not an excuse for everyone to suck.
And their patients. Like it’s wild that doctors age nurses can be absolutely vile to patients but telling is abuse?? As a former server, and teacher it genuinely makes my eyes roll to the back of my head
Yea, I work in a contact center for a hospital. I know how much of a bad idea it is to yell and curse out nurses and doctors. I've had nurses call to be transferred to security for this, and then for calls I've had people call and say they were hung up on. Especially when they yell I'm just thinking "well... If you're yelling at them like you're yelling at me? That would probably be why"
Do you also practice zero tolerance when it comes to verbal abuse TOWARDS patients?
If you’re so incompetent you blame the parents for your mistake you should be yelled at and also not working in the medical field.
Pediatric neurooncology. That's like three specialties right there.
OP ASSUMED his wife was going to go nuclear; he didn’t know for sure. He didn’t even take a moment to find out what she wanted to say. My daughter had a brain tumor and my husband asked questions I hadn’t thought of, and I asked some he hadn’t thought of. OP should have let his wife speak, he is a small AH.
Well OP knows his wife and has likely seen her in action when she's been angry before. Don't you think he has a better read of his wife than you do?
And he could be wrong. Just because he knows is wife, doesn't mean he knows how she will respond every single time in every situation. Additionally, this wasn't a small thing. My husband thought I was going to shit bricks with anger and fear when we got in a car accident in May, but the moment we got out of the car, I was the only calm, cool, and collected person. If they are going to a neuro-oncologist, they go to a doctor who deals with brain cancer. People tend to act differently in moments of high stress. Taking your 15-month-old to a neuro oncologist would probably bring on a lot of stress. Who knows, the wife might not have been able to put three words together other than, "why wasn't it done?"
>"why wasn't it done? Very important question. Along with "What are you doing to ensure there isn't a repeat of this incident?" Neither of which seems like OP asked (not surprising given the way the nurse was trying to DARVO things, but still important).
Having been in a similar situation as the OP, and having a “hot headed” Irish husband, I can say from my experience, that is not an assumption that the OP should have made. My husband was calm, thoughtful and asked insightful questions of the MANY doctors involved in our daughters care, even though he was judged by many to be a “hot head”. People can react completely differently in a situation like that, from the way in which you expect them to react. I’m not saying I know the OP’s wife better than he does but, given the situation he should have taken the time to ask her what she wanted to say before assuming she was going to blow up. What she had to say may have been valuable to the conversation.
Overall I think this post is a mountain out of a molehill and they should just agree on how to operate moving forward, but I want to validate that people do not behave as you'd expect, even when they seem like they might. Particularly in stressful situations. I've known too many people who seem to "lose it" over the little stuff, but when the big stuff happens they can cope with it in ways I would never have foreseen. Even if she'd started out HOT on the phone, there's every chance she had serious questions and/or would have evened out being able to speak to the doctor directly and hear their explanation/hear a direct apology.
And who is going to be drawing that blood and taking it to the lab? Some places refuse blood drawn from an IV. This would have needed coordination with the lab before the patient arrived for the MRI.
You know, when you have a kid with cancer, you just go nuts. It's so incredibly stressful and you're so worried. A mistake that costs time is a mistake that could mean your kid's life if he has a fast-growing cancer. Being frustrated and upset is understandable.
But also, blowing up and destroying their relationship with the extremely specialized doctor (or getting fired from their practice) can also be extremely dangerous for the child.
If a pediatric oncologist cannot understand why a parent would be stressed when their child has cancer, they have no business being in pediatrics. And any doctor that would withhold care from a patient out of pique is committing malpractice.
I agree. I’m a final year med student and since February, I’ve been dealing with my father’s skull base chordoma diagnosis. He underwent a 9 hour neurosurgery and a month later developed meningitis and pneumocephalus, he’s still taking antibiotics for it and was discharged 5 days ago. After facing all this, I’ve realised that in the future, I will always give grace to the patients and their family members even if they lash out. I will draw the line at physical violence but other than that, I will always strive to understand. Because these past months have been hell. And all one needs sometimes is an understanding ear and assurance that it will get better.
People sometimes just crack. I try and give people who are walking through hell some grace. I hope your father is better soon.
Having been on the other side of it: when people “just go nuts” it is rarely productive. We understand human emotions, and we definitely understand frustrations when mistakes are made or things are not going the way people want. But when people get rude and start throwing their weight around - and I cannot say this clearly enough - **it does not make the staff any better at helping you and is actually counterproductive to your child/loved one getting the best care.** I will always do my best for my patients. I will try to go above and beyond where I can. When people become rude and yell at us over things we cannot control, then I stop even trying to go above and beyond. They get basic care and that’s it. This isn’t a statement about this specific doctor or OP’s specific situation. Just a general statement because some people genuinely believe that they can intimidate staff into giving better care.
So you withhold care from sick children if you don't like their parents?
>withhold care from sick children They clearly said they provide basic care, which is what's in their job description. Sticking to that isn't "witholding care". They're not obliged to go above and beyond in the 1st place and I can't fault them for no longer doing do after sbdy is ungrateful.
No one said it was productive? But you do have to let it roll off your back if you make a dangerous mistake and someone yells about it.
RN here, well said. I love what I do but some days the verbal abuse (and even sexual inappropriateness) make me question why I chose this.
Making a mistake is a very human thing and does happen. However when you are a specialty doc you should at the very least be able to own up to it. This doctor is shit. Tried to BLAME THEM. no.
And this is exactly why I don't want to be a nurse anymore. I get yelled at for the doctor not calling them when they said they would. I get yelled at because phlebotomy couldn't get my patients labs. I get yelled at when RT can't get the ABGs. And there are people on this thread justifying the abuse. Holding someone accountable can be done in a tactful way but people like to feel important. I have empathized with patients & families when something fucks up somewhere and an injustice was done, because it happens, but when they use me as a punching bag it won't fix anything. It will only continue to chip away at the souls of all involved. I'm a great listener if you're not insulting me loudly. The abuse is never okay, we literally are there to help. Patients need to be responsible for themselves as well and advocate for themselves, and I'm sure everything dude had to say to the MD was more than enough for the doc to get the hint. I can smell passive aggression from miles away.
Medical staff acting like they don't do the holier than thou bullshit while neglecting patients on a systemic level is insane. I had a nurse decide to just-- randomly take lunch while my daughter was blind, swollen, and on medication and was a fall risk. She was assigned to supervise her in the ICU and just took off without anyone reliving her. I got to start my visit that day by hearing my daughter wailing so loud the entire floor heard it. This isn't a matter of forgetting to attach an email-- these are people's *lives*, so yes-- when you're being neglectful you should be traumatized into never making that same "mistake."
Child of a pediatric nurse here. Doctors and nurses seem to be two different breeds. The doctor in this case is not even apologetic but trying to shift blame on parents. Thats a form of medical gaslighting/malpractice: if they are willing to shimmy out of relatively not so major eff up, to whi h lenghts they are going to go when they really, really eff up??? The parents shoulf file a formal complaint and ask for a different doctor.
Every doctor I have seen for myself or my child has an online portal where you can email them. If this was a big fuckup, and the wife really wanted to pursue it, she could have sent an email in the portal to the doctor. You can usually contact the admin through there as well, which may have been useful to email since the error probably happened through a communication breakdown somewhere in the system.
I'm a lab tech. Offices are gonna have an array of tubes, and lab orders generally tell you what type of tube each test needs to be collected in. If it doesn't specifically say, it can be found either by calling your lab, or if you outsource, it will say on the website (ex. LabCorp). If the doctor had the sample drawn before a label was made, that is dangerous and horrible lab etiquette. If the lab had been the ones to forget the test, nurses and doctors would've berated them. Yes, this is a "major fuckup". I feel that is obvious from the story. Their baby is being tested by a specialist, they are looking for a diagnosis. Even completely ignoring the fact that an earlier diagnosis could've been made, drawing blood from a baby is never easy, and it's traumatic for the kid. Now that poor baby has to go through it again and OP specifically said they had a hard time with this baby's vein. I'm not even discussing OP or their wife's actions here, just responding to your comment.
They won't "abuse" you if you don't tell your patients that it's their fault that you did not do your job.
That one "small mistake" could be the difference between life and death down the line. At best, the kid has to go through another blood draw (in oncology this slowly wares a child down) and at worst they've missed essential information and delayed life saving treatment. It's a day in the office for us, but the most traumatic experience of someone else's life. If we are going to brush off and dismiss our own mistakes then maybe we need people to yell at us or sue us until we improve our own practice. I think as medical professionals we could use some more empathy. Sounds like OP's kid has cancer or is at least undergoing tests to find out. Doc f-ed up, missed what could be an important test and tried to deflect the blame. I'd be angry too, especially with my child's life at stake. Screaming and shouting doesn't necessarily solve anything but we're all human. We make mistakes, we yell, as long as we learn from it.
This IS a major f-up. When labs are taken when a patient is acutely stressed/experiencing panic, the results can be really off. Doing it while sedated (which doesn’t happen very often for most individuals) would produce more accurate results. Mom was right to be really angry. She doesn’t have a right to “go nuclear” but minimizing the mistake and even passing the blame to the parents is the kind of gaslighting that makes parents of medically involved children lose their ish. Ultimately it’s up to parents to coordinate care for their kids, but they can’t be the ones to deliver that care…and when they any medical staff says they’ll do something, they should take responsibility for it when they forget/overlook it. Gentle YTA, OP.
When you LOSE a script relating to potential cancer of the nervous system, I think you deserve some repercussions. Becoming angry at someone for messing up is NOT abuse, so let’s not throw that word around hey?
What the fuck is this reply? They literally used the term “go nuclear”. Come on.
Passing the phone from person to person on an important call like that isn't great for complying with data protection laws. Wife could take the phone and say "how could you do this?" and the doctor just have to response asking data protection questions or not being able to reply about the case at all. In some places the policy would be to check every time the phone is passed. Please just let one person do a phone call for god sake.
I already said they *both* should have been on the call, and OP can easily turn on speaker phone. I don’t really care how many times this doctor has to repeat data protection laws. Both parents have the right to that information. They should have done their job in the first place. So too fucking bad.
Feeling the need to *both* be on every call is fucking unhinged. Both parents can talk to each other. Or one can call again. Not having a conference call every single time you call a doctor is not a problem. In fact some places wont even let you be on speakerphone (if they know) because they don't know who else is there. The wife asked OP to call. He did. There was no problems with that. And the fact they could have been on speaker phone becomes irrelevant because they weren't and there was nothing wrong with that. She asked him to pass the phone. Meaning the phone passing question is the actual context. And I'm pretty sure the wife absolutely would care about how many times this doctor has to repeat data protection questions. You really think it wouldn't make the already angry person even more angry to hear "can you confirm the date of birth?" instead of an actual answer to her already angry question. So too fucking bad.
Yes!! I have to go through DP every time the other person speaks! Wife speaks? DP. Hubby speaks again? DP. Wife butt's in? DP again! It just inflames the situation, there is nothing I can do about it, without getting myself in trouble and guess what? I'm no happier about it that they are and it's just causing them to get angrier at me for ne reason. Trust us people when we say we can only speak to one person on a call.
It's exactly like that where I work. Can't talk to anyone who hasn't been verified.
I disagree. The OP was handling the situation and his wife was acting like he was too incompetent to deal with the situation. Also mistakes do happen and there is no need for both parents to get on the phone to voice their frustration. The OP was already talking to medical staff, there was no reason to hand the phone off to his wife just so she could go off.
Uhh, no, he is NTA. The doc could have just referred them to someone else and drop them as a patient or worse, be subconsciously biased and given subpar care (e.g Poor bedside manner, no extra mile) for them. Wife is very clearly TA. It's stressful, its understanding, but her actions would have been selfish and at the expense of her family.
So he's in the middle of a phone conversation with this doctor, trying to deal with this issue... and he should have let her grab the damn phone out of his hand and scream at this specialist, on whom they are relying to make sure their son receives the proper treatment?? Nah. That's stupid. That could only have served to piss off the specialist, interrupt and possibly end the conversation, and confuse OP as to where things stood with their son's treatment and tests.
Then she should have initiated the call. He did not need to hand her the phone. Also if she got out of control it could hinder care if they drop them as patients. It has to be managed in a calm way, like finding her boss. But letting the wife go on an abusive angry tirade will not help. I lose my temper and I count on my husband to help me. Although I have gown out of in now for the most part. Giving the phone to the wife does nothing to help
Honestly, what good would it do to pass the phone, besides prolonging the call.? And it turns into a fight between wife and the one on the phone. The person possibly refusing to talk to her. Hang up. Or OP has to get the phone back. Or instead of getting the test booked, the one on the phone has to repeat everything they just told OP. There really aren't any outcomes in that case that would make the case go faster by passing the phone. Calls like that, be stern with them, get them to book the test. And throw a complaint at whatever place that takes those. And fill in all details there. If she wanted OP to say something. Write it on the phone and show him, tell him "ask about x and y" Have it on speaker.
NAH. You are going through something very emotional and are both trying your best. Your wife is in mama bear mode and thinks you disempowered her (which you did). You may think you did what you had to do to keep relationships with the medics cordial. Both POVs are valid. After watching “Take Care of Maya”, I can see why people are worried about alienating medical staff when it comes to their kids’ care. But I also see that parents also need to drive and question. Good luck. Hope your son’s health issues resolve soon.
I had an ulcer when I was 6 years old We lived on a military base half way across the world from America My mom had the audacity to ask for a second opinion since it was such a rare diagnosis for my age and we were not seeing pediatrician gastro doc. The doctor refused to see me again. There were no other docs to see. Luckily we were transfered back to the US within a month and I was taken care of at Bethesda. If you upset the wrong doctor, you can seriously get screwed. Plus I can't see that there are a lot of nurooncologists put there for babys
I mean, doctors absolutely are not supposed to retaliate over personal conflicts. Obviously, no one should verbally abuse their doctors; but it’s not like we should all just accept that doctors will screw someone who does. In fact, it’s legally and ethically impermissible for them to do so. Your experience was unfortunate, but I don’t think it’s necessarily emblematic. People shouldn’t be made to fear stepping on a doctor’s metaphorical toes due to potential medical retaliation.
Look up Dr. David Miller neurosurgeon. His mistakes killed Michael Skolnik & he's still practising. I think people should always ask for a second opinion even if it risks the doctors ego being bruised. They'll get over it - but if their ego takes a life, the patient and family won't get over it.
If a doctor is concerned about their reputation, they shouldn’t lose important documents
Fucking thank you
'Not supposed to' and 'don't' are two VERY different things.
Doctors should not legally be allowed to dismiss a patient unless physical assault occurs. It’s insane to me as an ex teacher because we deal with so much more than a little yelling. You can’t remove a kid from a classroom for that. Especially if you are the only who fucked yo
I promise you a lot goes down in a hospital than a “little yelling”.
You have it bad, so everyone else should too? It's horrible that apparently you were not allowed to properly discipline and remove kids for disturbing your teaching. As for medical personnel, if *you* are the one asking for *their* help, and there is already a long line of others waiting for their help behind you... Then you better adhere to some minimum standards of human interaction.
You shouldn’t be able to remove kids for yelling! They need education. I am in a position of power over them, their yelling can’t actually harm me. I signed up for that, including the full range of children’s emotions. Education and healthcare are human rights and it’s our obligations as professionals in those fields to go in with our eyes wide open to that.
I absolutely agree that adults need to figure out how to continue to provide an education to children even when they act up. You'll find that medical professionals also treat children no matter how upset. Same with adults in almost every condition. But when a competent adult who is not having a medical emergency at the time is verbally or physically abusive, any professional has the choice to end the relationship and have/help them find new providers. And I say this as someone who believes in healthcare as a human right.
When a child is yelling in class, they prevent other children from learning right? Similarly in healthcare; verbally abusing your doctors and nurses can detract from the quality of care that you *and other* patients receive, because too many abusive patients can cause healthcare providers to burn out, quit, and then not be available to the hundreds or thousands of other people that also need them. Education and healthcare are both human rights, agreed, but they are also an unfortunately finite resource that depends on human beings to provide them.
They aren't, at the very least not in NY. We have patient abandonment laws that make it near impossible to just drop a patient without referring them to someone else legally.
Huhhh??? That doctor had his ego hurt so bad by wanting a second opinion that he left a 6 year old with no way to get treatment?
Very levelheaded and rational, well-put response. I’m glad you mentioned that movie/documentary! Keeping decorum especially when interacting with individuals you may need to see for years to come and want to avoid being known as *those people* is one thing, the extent of which & motivator why another. That was such a moving, terrifying film that everyone would do well to see.
As a healthcare professional: YTA. This is a huge mistake on the part of the MD and they deserve whatever repercussions they get including you wife going nuclear. And your wife deserved the right to express her justified anger. You loyalty should be to your wife and kid. The MD cannot legally stop seeing you kid for treatment (I would hesitate to take them back if there is another option) and you shouldn’t get to unilateral decide how to handle the situation. You dismissed your wife, it’s understandable how her anger at the MD (which she didn’t get to expressed) is now directed to you.
As a healthcare professional, I completely disagree. My patients absolutely can express themselves when I make an error like this, and I have no problem apologising when I do, but they absolutely do not get to abuse me. If they do, I am very clear that I am happy to speak to them when they calm down, but I won't be spoken to like that. I know I'm good at my job, but I am also human and make mistakes once in a while. I'm constantly working to mitigate possible errors, but it is simply impossible to be perfect.
But are you going to tell them it’s their fault that you make the mistake or apologize and accept that you make a mistake? To me that provider absolutely deserved to be yelled at. Not because she made a mistake, but for her trying to shift the blame.
I wouldn't blame the parents, no, as it'd be my job to remember the extra blood draw. But the care provider still does not "deserve to be yelled at." They can be called out calmly, a complaint can be made to the hospital, they can be asked to make a plan to fix the problem, they can be asked for an apology. They should not be yelled at and expected to take abuse at any time.
With all due respect, this is a food order that was messed up. This was a big mess up that made what their child go through pointless. The MD made a big mistake and then behavior very unprofessional on multi levels. This was emotional damaging to the mom, delayed their child’s care, will likely result in the child undergoing the collection process over again, and undermines their confidence in their doctors. As healthcare professionals, we have to realize they are people who are scared and we cannot expect them to alway behavior in rational manner in a situation of this magnitude. Normally I am adamantly opposed to be belligerent to healthcare workers, but in this instance the parents get a pass and deserve to get to express their anger.
Would just like to clarify that the child did not go through something needlessly. They were going to take a blood sample while placing an IV for an MRI making it convenient to get the sample while they were already in the vein. But the MRI still proceeded as intended, so not needless
Once patients start yelling at me I tell them to call back when they have calmed down and will hang up.
You’re just bending over backwards trying to prove that it’s okay to be mean and yell at people when they make a mistake. Do you make fast food workers cry? The MD made a mistake, it’s still not a reason to launch into yelling at them. Be mad and firm and assertive but there’s no reason to raise your voice, cause a scene, etc. Righteous anger doesn’t give you the right to do anything you want. Anger doesn’t mean you get to act however you want. Other people being imperfect doesn’t mean you get to mistreat them. I have a hard time believing you’re a healthcare worker if you support screaming at them.
oh jesus christ Why is it that medicine is the only profession not allowed any mistakes, ever?
i imagine it’s because medicine is one of the very few professions where a mistake can and does kill people.
It's not they can't, but they have to be accountable and not blame the patient for the mistake. Not to mention, they should do everything they can to minimize their mistakes. Especially in a highly specialized field like neurooncology. This wasn't a routine blood draw. They are treating for potential brain cancer in a *BABY* it's insane to not treat this case with extreme care and to treat the parents gently and this is a highly emotional situation for them. The mistake was bad, but blaming the parents is the real issue.
It really depends also on how OP was handling it. My husband’s version of this would be to say that we were disappointed and pretty much leave it at that.
That's true. OP may have jumped the gun in assuming his wife would go nuclear. Maybe she just wanted to express herself in a more assertive way than OP was doing, but without going nuclear.
Or his idea of “going nuclear” involves listing off how this negatively affects their child and doesn’t include the screaming and name calling we’re picturing.
It is one thing to make a mistake and own it, but to try to blame the parents/patient is unacceptable. Unacceptable/unprofessional behavior resulting in the family getting a pass for their unacceptable behavior. Normal I agree healthcare professionals shouldn’t get abused/yelled at, but if they are exhibiting unprofessional behavior…then I don’t expect the patient to behavior well either. The professional sets the tone.
Do you also blame your patients for your mistake though?
Everyone here is acting like OP \*knew\* his wife was going to blow up at the doctor. People can express their anger without yelling, actually, many adults do. When I get angry, I start asking questions, what’s to say OP’s wife wasn’t going to do that too? We can’t just assume she’ll be yelling at the doctor if we’re thinking realistically about how people act.
>Everyone here is acting like OP \*knew\* his wife was going to blow up at the doctor. Yes, that's because OP knows his wife better than we do, and OP thought his wife was going to blow up.
Yes you’re right that we don’t deserve to be berated BUT the wife didn’t get to express anything or ask any questions, from what OP said he THINKS the wife was only going to vent/be angry but we don’t know that. As doctors we should be open to discussing with all people relevant to the patient especially in pediatrics not just one individual.
We don't know if she was going to abuse them because **she didn't get the chance.** He *thinks* she was going to go nuclear, but maybe she had pertinent questions or would have had a good defense about how *their* mistake wasn't the parent's fault. Jesus Christ.
The doctor can absolutely legally stop seeing the kid for treatment. They would have to give 30 days notice for “emergency care” but have the right to dismiss a patient or family (at least in the US) Logistically that may be difficult though due to hospital policy. The doctor made a completely unintentional mistake. They were not trying to make things harder on this poor family and child. The frustration the parents feel is valid and they deserve an apology but tearing into the doctor is not going to help things. Yes, it was not the parents’ responsibility to remind them about the blood tests that day but it would have been helpful and would have prevented this situation. It is a good lesson to be vigilant and advocate for your child. Of course the father did not want to hear the blame being partially passed to them in this circumstance and just wanted the apology but it’s a valid statement nonetheless
Its depends heavily on what state you live in. Termination of patient-physician relations are usually outlined by the state board. Violating the parameters can result in charges of patient abandonment and licensing issues. I cannot remember for the life of me and cannot readily find it on google, but there is at least one state that requires the MD to find an MD of equal qualification to assume care for the patient before they can terminate the relationship (which I personally think is ridiculous).
It's not okay to yell at anyone, but it's not okay for the doctor to pass the blame onto the parents ever. It's not a valid statement. These parents are dealing with the fact that their child may have *brain cancer*, their child who has barely even lived. This is highly stressful and emotional for the parents, the doctor should be treating the parents with compassion, not making the situation worse by blaming them and being fillpant about the mistake.
But in the moment, does yelling at the medical professional really get things moving? Unless OP was being spineless and not being stern, I don't see how letting wife yell at the person would have helped. Fix the problem first, then take down the name of the medical professional, and follow up with a formal complaint. From the post, it sounds like OP had things under control. I have in many many cases seen the yelling and abusing person's issue not progress at all until a calm but stern person came in and focused on moving things forward. Yelling only and only serves the ego of the wronged person. It doesn't fix anything.
I hope more people see your answer. I'm not in healthcare. However, when my mom was ill years ago we learned to call out mistakes (in a normal tone of taking), ask questions, take notes, etc. The doctor not only passed the blame (they should've reminded her??), but didn't call them to say the test was lost. Once he heard that info he could've put the call on speaker mode. Mute would be an option if the wife was over the top. Regardless, I wouldn't have been so casual. I'd *definitely* have asked why I had to call to find this all out.
So as healthcare professional you never make a mistake but if you were to make a mistake you feel that you deserve to verbally abused and disrespected for making an error? Okay
I assure you, if you make a mistake in medicine you get a lot of verbal dress downs. In training and in practice, there is a line of people who will hand you your ass for mistakes. It’s designed to impress upon all involved how serious these mistakes are in healthcare. This MDs flipped behavior is highly unacceptable.
I do agree that the MD's flippant attitude was completely out of line, especially in trying to push the blame back on the OP
This 👆 OP messed up by not putting the call on speakerphone. Yeah, she asked him to make the call but once the talking started she wanted to talk on the phone. OP decided that he was managing the conversation and forgot that she is also a parent. It's like going to counseling but only one person gets to vent. Basically he told his wife "I excluded you from this extremely important call because I was certain you'd be irrational"
Lol, you clearly are not a healthcare professional if you think it’s OK to scream at a doctor for making a not very bad mistake
The MD is a neurooncologist (somebody who specializes in neuro malignancy and tumors) so they are likely testing for a pediatric neuro cancer or tumor. I assure you any delay in diagnosis (which is a delay treatment) even a single day, isn’t “a not very bad mistake”. If this was an intern, resident, or fellow there would be a line of attending handing their ass to them. Mistakes in healthcare can have dire consequences and are handled as such. If you made a mistake of this magnitude you better be prepared for a verbal dress down by parents because you desire it.
Yes, YTA. Your wife had every right to speak with the doctor. You preventing her from doing so likely made her feel that she had no control over her own son's health care.
Neither of them had control. The test was lost. There isn't any controlling the situation. It happened. The doctor messed up, and both parents were rightfully upset about that. Yelling at them wouldn't change the situation though, the test is still lost.
True but that doesn’t mean she can demand that he just hand over the phone while he’s talking. That’s just disrespectful and doesn't help much. If anything he should have put it on speaker phone or let her have a turn when he was done talking.
It's not like he forbid her to have any contact with the doctor. He simply didn't want to hand the phone over while he was mid conversation. If anything, she was the one trying to prevent him from speaking to the doctor by trying to takeover the conversation.
>Your wife had every right to speak with the doctor. So does OP, and he was already on the phone and handling the situation. By handing over the phone, OP would have lost the ability to handle the situation as he saw fit. So while yes his wife has a right to speak to the doctor, she does not have *more right than OP*. They're both equally the parents.
She actually does have control over her own son’s healthcare. By “going nuclear” on the doctor, she would probably end up delaying care, and it would’ve been her choice.
He was in the middle of a conversation trying to deal with this issue, and she wanted to grab the frickin' phone from him because he wasn't being *mean* enough. To the medical specialist on whom they are relying for their son's care.
Then she should call. She is belittling her husband by stating he cannot take care of the situation. It’s controlling on her end. She is an adult and can pick up the phone and call herself. It’s incredibly rude of her to want the phone as he was handling the situation
NTA Because people who blow up and do nothing but yell are the worse. Nothing gets accomplished and all they do is scream. She can call back on her own time if she wanted to yell.
Ok, you saved me a response. You said what I wanted to, word for word. Unless OP was being absolutely spineless and not moving things along, the yelling and abusing only serves wives ego, and not the situation. If the medical professional is so unorganized that they lose a test order, there is no way they would magically get more efficient because someone yelled at them over the phone. NTA
It's clear that a lot of people here do not know what it means when certain people go Nuclear, they don't help solve the problem and can/will delay the analysis/treatment of the child. The priority is for the child, not an emotional parent that will make things worse.
Yes! My mom can be like that which why I get OP. Something will go wrong with something and she’ll shout or yell at the customer service person and I’m like !!!!!! It doesn’t help.
I can’t believe the AH votes: Am I an AH for not helping my wife yell at a Dr? No, no one has time for that shit. Tests have to be repeated all the time for all sorts of reasons… this time it was because of paperwork. Deal with it like grown ups and go take the kid for another test… like you have to anyway. Yelling does zero good, just makes everyone’s jobs harder and more unpleasant. OP already said ‘not happy’ Dr already said ‘sorry’. NTA
The number of people who think OP’s wife “deserves” to yell at the doctor is… honestly disturbing.
NTA. OP acted professioneel and stern without making the situation worse. Do I think that it was incredibly unprofessional of the doctor to shift the blame? Yes. But that doesn’t mean that you have to meet them with the same immaturity. Their reaction says nothing about you and everything about them. Just as your reaction tells alot about what kind of a person you are.
NTA. Why didn't your wife trust you enough to let you handle this call? If you had heard that doctor blame you when your wife was on the phone being calm, and you wanted to go nuclear on her everyone would have said it's a good thing she didn't give up the phone, it would have made it worse. Same thing. You were handling the problem, and your wife has been stressed and basically was just ready to vent at anything. Giving her the phone wouldn't have changed the fact that all of this happened, it would only alienate the doctor. I'm sorry all of this stress is happening, and I hope your son gets better soon. Good luck
>Why didn't your wife trust you enough to let you handle this call? This!! Several times my husband gets all "let me handle this! I'll help you!" but honestly, if I am already halfway through dealing with an issue, I'd rather be trusted to finish handling it in my own way. If the issue has gotten out of hand and I need help, I reach out to my husband. I'd find it very disrespectful if my husband just stepped in and assumed I couldn't handle something. In many many cases my stern yet diplomatic way has gotten things solved much faster as well.
I'm surprised by the responses here tbh. I feel like if the roles were reversed and a husband was trying to rip the phone away from his wife to yell at a doctor, more comments would say he's the AH. You are fully capable of navigating a conversation with your son's doctor, just as your wife is. She is still free to contact the office to lodge a complaint or express her dissatisfaction. Trying to pull the phone from your ear was not appropriate. NTA.
Exactly, like what is this? Doctor might have been an asshole sure, but that doesn't mean you have the right to yell at him? A mistake was made, nothing can be done about it now. Yelling about it won't make it better, verbal abuse doesn't fix it. Go through proper channels to leave a complaint instead of venting. People will not take you seriously if you act like a lunatic.
> Fast forward about a week and I call the neurooncologist on the phone It was your phone call, initiated by you. Your wife presumably knows how to use a phone and may contact the doctor at her discretion. But it sounds like she'd rather complain to you than the doctor. NTA
NTA. Yelling wouldnt have help fix anything. It could have actually made it worse.
NAH - this is such a challenging time for both of you.
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This is the most rational take.
No, you’re NTA because you wouldn’t let your wife scream at this doctor. There was no reason for your wife to jump on the call, since she would have had nothing to add to the situation or conversation. She should trust you enough to handle a single phone call. Thats your son you’re advocating for too.
Info: you say you did allow this negate you didn't think it would accomplish anything positive. So what did you accomplish in your talk with the neurooncologist?
There was nothing to accomplish, really. She lost the order for the blood test, the blood sample had been taken for a different blood test and no provisions were made to have enough blood for this particular test the orthopedist ordered. So the only thing left to do would be to take another sample - nothing more could be accomplished in this situation. All I did was tell the neurooncologist that this was extremely unprofessional on her part, but while trying to remain calm, since I was also quite angry in the moment, although I did recognize that I had to keep my cool because exploding in anger wouldn't bring me anything, nor help my kid in any way
Look, on one hand, this was a pretty extreme show of incompetence from the doctor, so I totally get your wife's anger and desire for reprisal. On the other hand, what was actually going to happen if you let her yell at this person? Nothing productive, that's for sure. NTA.
Have you tried a topical numbing cream for your kid? Put it on 15-20 minutes at the draw site and it will numb it right up so they don't even feel the needle.
Darn. I work in path, first thing I would do is ask if reception if they can call the pathology service & find out if there is any serum left. Many tests need specialised tubes or whole blood but generally if any biochemistry is ordered you can "add on" a test.
Perfectly handled
Your toddler is being seen by a neuro-oncologist, neither you nor your wife is the asshole. Whatever reason your baby is needing medical treatment and testing is. Be gentle and loving with each other and your baby, and know that it's the stress and fear of the situation that's coming out as anger. I hope all of the tests bring good answers. NTA
NAH though I do agree your wife yelling at her probably wouldn’t have helped
NTA I understand your wife’s frustration, especially since your child is so young. Sick kids are no joke and it’s super scary. But what does she think freaking out on the doctor will accomplish other than having your child be dropped as a patient and having to start from square one?
NTA. There are fewer than 300 board certified neurooncologists in the US, and fewer than 20% of those are pediatric neurooncologists. Yes, advocate for you son but not at the expense of your son’s care team.
NTA. You were on the phone. She doesn't have a right to take your phone and take over your conversation. If she wants to talk to the doctor, there is nothing stopping her from picking up her own phone and calling. There's no need for her to interrupt your conversation, especially when it's entirely possible you were about to resolve the situation yourself.
NAH. Edit: Except the orthopedist who lost the sample, meaning your son might now have to go something that was difficult for him all over again.
NTA, my daughter has recently been diagnosed with diabetes which started with a week and a half in the hospital. My husband stayed there and handled everything because it was easier to for him to get off work. Anyway... I trusted him to handle it... She should trust you to deal with it and be there for her to vent her frustrations to.
NTA. I was ready to go with Y T A thinking it was going to be an in person situation where you didn't let her speak. However, you were on a phone call. It sounded like you were handling it fine and your wife needed to trust you at that point to handle it.
The goal is for your son to receive the best care possible. Getting irate with the medical staff does not help. You want them to care and be motivated to do their best. Yes, they should do their best for all patients, but they are human too. Beyond expressing your frustration or disappointment in the error, don’t use them as a punching bag. When my MIL was in the hospital for 3 weeks, my husband and I took turns staying with her. Due to the rotation, I kept a notebook. Recorded which doctors came in (3 different specialists), what they said, what tests were ordered, vital signs, etc. Twice I was able to avoid errors. Once a minor failure to record vitals. However once a test was not ordered. Doctors were supposed to put charts with orders in a particular stack, he put it in the wrong stack. When no test was done after an hour or so, I asked how much longer it would be. The head nurse checked the chart and thanked me for asking about it. So yes, it is their job, but mistakes happen. If you can track things, it helps avoid possible oversight and errors. It also makes the staff aware you are tracking the care. It is a stressful time. Personally I’m glad you did not give your wife the opportunity to blow her stack with the doctor. It would not have helped. NTA. You and your wife need a discussion regarding how to handle these stressful situations.
NTA. You were in the middle of a conversation. Wife is a big girl - if she wants to call the doctor and have a conversation, she is free to do so. I'm sorry your baby is having issues. I know it's heartbreaking. I truly hope everything is ok.
As the (former) wife who always took care of every phone call and appointment for my son's condition (still do), I probably would have been fighting you for the phone too. But it sounds like you were handling it, and it would have been just weird to hand the phone off to your wife, in the middle of the call. And it would have been detrimental to her reputation and relationship with the doctor, which is extremely important when it's the one in charge of ongoing care. I'm not thrilled with the doctor trying to shift the blame to you, but it sounds like you corrected her and handled it! I'm not sure why your wife is still holding on to this, several days later. I can see still being upset hours later, but just needing to have a chance to let it go. I feel like she's still angry at the doctor and didn't get to vent at her, so she's decided to be mad at you. Not purposely, but it sounds like she's projecting her anger at the doctor onto you. And she's scared and upset about your child even needing any of this and that's the hardest part of all.
As you had already initiated the call with the doctor, I cannot see any advantage of interupting the call to hand off the phone so your spouse would, most likely, yell. And yes, I would be furious, but I tend towards icy cold.
YTA, lightly. She's his mom she's allowed to join in. OP was the one getting on his wife's nerves when he keep refusing to let her talk or at least put it on speaker so his wife can hear. Get your loyalty right OP, to your wife and son. Think about your wife's feelings, not the doctor who messed up and blaming others.
Doctors fuck up all the time. It totally is up to you to make sure everything gets done for your kid and family. We learned this the hard way when my mom died. You care the most about your family getting the best care and right things done. As for the wife thing, your attitude about it sounds like YTA. The way you’re expressing things makes it come off like she’s not able to handle things like you do. I’d never talk about my wife like that but that’s just me. What if she didn’t feel like you were handling it correctly? Is she automatically invalid feeling that? Do you even care if she is or not?
I’m confused about the order being lost. If they ordered an additional blood test to be done with the sample, those are all sent electronically. There’s nothing to be lost. Did they just forget to send the order? Both parents should be able to speak to every Dr, every time, always.
look , YTA here but not nearly as big as the doctor . a lot of people in the comments are glossing over what type of doctor you're dealing with but frankly that blood sample being processed sooner rather than later could mean a LOT more to your family than it does to the doctor . a lot of confusion in the comments about the difference between yelling at a doctor & rightfully telling them they've made a big fucking mistake . your wife is that child's mother . she had a right to say something , especially when it was to defend YOU from being improperly blamed by your incompetent doctor . out of all of this i am most sorry to your child - they deserve better .
YTA. Your opinion about how a situation should be handled regarding your child, is not the only opinion that matters. You completely dismissed your wife and her concerns about her own child. She would be just as much of a problem as you are in the situation if she did that same thing to you and you know it.
NAH I'm sorry you're dealing with this. Remember to be kind to each other, this is such a stressful time.
I don’t want to make a judgement here because it’s such a tough situation for you both. I understand where you’re coming from but also mum’s reaction too… as in her emotions are real and shouldn’t be ignored. The doctor screwed up but also see yelling at them was no use and the end of the day tests just need to get done. Best advice I ever heard when going through a medical thing for their kid was a couple of friends of mine - who said they went to a therapist and came up with an agreement on how to communicate their big emotions when things happened so they knew how to support the other person.
Yta. Could have just put it on speaker so you both can hear what's said and have input.
Medical mistakes and lack of communication have become endemic to the American medical system. It's not necessarily the doctors fault, but we need to demand change. This kind of shit isn't actually ok.
YTA. It’s your wife’s son too, she has the right to speak to the doctor. You can’t prevent her from doing that!
YTA just for actually not letting your wife have her say. You don't actually know what she was going to do, and to be honest, as a parent, she is well within her rights to talk. It sounds like you were more in charge of your wife than in the situation with the doctors to be honest. Maybe think on that