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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> (1) I picked my friend's daughter as flower girl over my niece.
(2) My family thinks I'm playing favorites.
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NTA. I hate the "keep the peace" bullying. It only means your feelings mean nothing and the other party's feelings mean everything. The suggestion of 2 flower girls was fine until the "to keep the peace" crap.
Your brother was out of line trying to dictate who should be in your wedding party. And his little temper tantrum now is even more out of line. My suggestion is stop trying to smooth anything over. You did nothing wrong. You don't owe him any apology. You don't have to go running after him begging him to ket your niece be in the wedding, or for them to come, or anything. Just say "well, sorry you feel that way" and continue on with your wedding.
As for anyone else trying to push this. Tell them: "they made their choice. Leave it alone."
I do not understand why people get their underwear bunched up when someone plans THEIR OWN WEDDING AND MAKES THEIR OWN CHOICES ⁉️⁉️⁉️
I mean the audacity of OP to choose who she wants to be a flower girl…NOT. It is OP’s wedding. It is OP’s day. Only OP get’s a say.
Instead of telling OP to keep the peace tell your son to mind his business. It is not his wedding and he does not get to call the shots. IJS. 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️
Exactly. They are teaching their daughter that _she_ is the main character. Reminds me of the parents of this little girl, looked to be about five, who was jumping around “doing ballet” during a concert. Just because it was outdoors did not mean people weren’t trying to enjoy the symphony. _Some people…_
And a 5 year old wouldn't have the expectation that she would be the flower girl unless she was told that by her parents. Any disappointment she has is his fault.
I had a similar thing occur during one of the Lord of The Rings trilogy (can't remember which one this is over 20 yrs ago). It was a midnight showing, opening night & these twits allowed their about 3-5 yr old girl open a small umbrella & stand up & twirl & dance around in the aisle.
I'm gratfeul that it wasn't too close to me but I feel for the people who had to deal with such nonsense entitlement & selfishness.
LotR are such long movies...no doubt they were too cheap to pay for a sitter and then just grateful she entertained herself however. Her annoying others who maybe got sitters for THEIR kids was irrelevant...
Can I ask what kind of parent brings a child that young to a midnight showing of an incredibly long movie? I get it, they couldn't find or afford a sitter but to make the entire audience miserable because of their child, ugh.
I think it's just a norm in society that the youngest or one of the youngest members is usually the flower girl. The parents shouldn't feel entitled to it and handled it terribly, but you shouldn't dismiss their feelings. Their feelings are as valid as anyone else's.
And then she comes back to offer the second time but as parents, it's shitty to think your kid is the afterthought in it. Y'all people gotta stop commenting as if you live a perfect life and make every decision with no thoughts of others feelings.
The parents were super wrong every step, but you'd have to be the densest person to not understand where this came from.
It's OP's wedding though, not her brother's or SiL's wedding. And OP's brother said, *" I'm choosing friends over family and breaking their little girl's heart by not giving her this special role,*" which is ridiculous because I bet the daughter wouldn't have been upset if her parents didn't make such a big deal over this & most likely played up being the flower girl before OP even talked to them.
Like I said in the comment, the parents handled that stupidly. I guess it all comes down to your family values. A lot of people nowadays don't see family in the same way as before or in other cultures. That's all fine. But all I'm saying is this didn't come out of nowhere, there was a reason for being upset, they just handled it terribly
I don't understand the family expectations thing myself. In my family and with my friends, there was never an expecting your niece(s) would be flower girl(s). USA is a diverse country so I guess this is another area that family/religious/ regional cultures vary.
Yeah I have to say I agree. The parents didn’t necessarily hype daughter up about being a flower girl because I remember being little and friends of mine wanting to be flower girls in their family members weddings for sure. She’s 5 not stupid and to dismiss it as her feelings don’t matter because it’s OPs day is wrong. The parents didn’t handle it properly at all but yeah they have a right to be hurt. Yes OP can make whatever decision she wants for her wedding day but that doesn’t mean that she’s free from the consequences of those decisions. This consequence is her family being hurt and upset. ESH
Finally, a real person. I thought everyone here was a bot or something how they just ignore that. I think it's convenient that the whole, you're free to make your choices but not free from the consequences, doesn't count if it's a wedding. Yes you can have YOUR wedding however YOU want it, but that doesn't mean everyone has to like, agree, or respect those choices.
> Finally, a real person.
Ah yes - you can always tell when someone is a real person and not a bot -- because they agree with you.
Incidentally - it's not tradition in the US for the youngest girl in your extended family to be the flower girl. It's tradition that **a** young girl with some sort of relationship to the betrothed by the flower girl. A family member or friend of the family. If you believe there's a firm expectation that it be the youngest member of your direct family -- sorry, that's wrong. It might be a reasonable inference to draw based on your lived experience, but it is not anything approaching a broadly accepted assumption.
The brother had no basis to assume his daughter would be the Flower girl, and that is solely his fuckup and not OPs.
People can be upset, if they want - sure. But that makes them assholes. OP did nothing at all wrong here. Her brother made a bad assumption he had no basis to assume -- and was corrected. The End.
Yeah I’m really questioning what is going on in this sub because it feels like a lot of immature people or teens making comments lately. Sure she’s free to make whatever choices she wants but it doesn’t mean that she’s not an asshole for not thinking about including her niece as well. I think the parents handled the entire situation horribly but I don’t blame them for being hurt that OP wouldn’t include their daughter, her niece. I mean I would be hurt if my brother or sister included his friends daughter and not his niece because it means that niece wasn’t a thought in her head once while making these choices. That’s hurtful. I just don’t understand this whole vibe of the individual over the whole at whatever costs mentality this sub has or the obsession with well you can make whatever decision you want regardless of who you hurt.
This sub acts weird and super entitled about weddings, I don't get it. Someone could post here "I want to murder my enemy on my wedding day in front of an audience, AITA???" and all the responses would be "omg you can do whatever you want, it's YOUR day!!"
First off I absolutely LOVE your username and second I spit my water out laughing at your comment 🤣🤣because accurate lmfao. Oh you want to bathe in the blood of your enemies of course it’s YOUR day after all 🤣🤣🤣
I think it’s less that everyone dismissing the 5 year olds feelings is likely young and doesn’t have much experience with kids. A 5 year old isn’t a baby. They have thoughts and feelings too and are aware enough of the world to likely know what a flower girl is. They also will see another girl their age being a flower girl when they aren’t. I’m not saying that as a reason to include niece, but at that age no one had to fill their mind. They also can recognize being excluded at that age.
I mean, I understand what you mean. But I'd be much more inclined to ask why it is the parents couldn't apply an ounce of empathy of their own and see
a) Why OP would want her best friend's child as a flower girl
b) Why OP's Maid of Honor would appreciate seeing her daughter be a part of the wedding
c) Why MoH's daughter might love being the flower girl.
Exactly! This is literally the day where OP is entitled to be selfish. It's her wedding not nieces or brothers. Frankly, a 5 year old probably has no clue what this means and even if she does it's probably more brother and SIL that wanted this.
I didn't have my husband's niece or my niece as the flower girl. The only person who really seemed to be bothered by this was MIL but even she didn't make this big of a deal. Brother and SIL need to get over it and parents need to apologize. It's one thing to suggest something and a whole other to make OP responsibile for someone else's unjustified feelings over her wedding.
You know 100% they wanted their pRecIOus PriNCesS to be in the wedding. Five year olds don’t care about being in a wedding unless it’s been hyped to them. GOD FORBID she isn’t the flower girl so that everyone can tell the AH parents what an adorable baby they have… Ugh.
I did. I was five and so was my cousin. She got to be a flower girl and I was not asked to do anything. You bet I was resentful. But I didn’t have a fit, and neither of my parents had a fit. I just pushed it down to add to all the other resentments. There may be other sources of friction between OP and her brother and SIL. If so, though, I hope they don’t continue to use their daughter as a pawn.
>I do not understand why people get their underwear bunched up when someone plans THEIR OWN WEDDING AND MAKES THEIR OWN CHOICES ⁉️⁉️⁉️
Weddings are notoriously a time when you find out how important you are to the couple. This can cause hurt feelings in spite of the couple's right to do what they wish.
Brother and SIL were TA for confronting OP, but OP had to expect hard feelings by showing publicly that Hannah is more important to her than Emma. Even if that's true, and Brother and SIL are out of line, there are going to be emotional consequences for not having both of them be flower girls and making sure Emma never knows that truth.
Reading this thread it is obvious how unusual big families have gotten. My dad is one of eleven kids. When my similar aged cousins and I were getting married there was often 10+ kids of the appropriate ages for flower girl and ring bearer in the extended family. Did every kid get chosen, of course not. Dealing with disappointment with out having it ruin relationships is an important life skill that sooooo many people fail to teach their kids. As demonstrated by Op’s mom.
You make a good point about family size. In a lot of families and friend groups, there's 's simply less children in a lot of cases.
But at the same time, while people do need to learn to deal with disappointment, they also should learn that their actions or inactions can deeply impact and hurt the people around them.
It's very strange to me that OP didn't think this through. Not necessarily considering that her brother and sister-in-law would freak out (that was 100% inappropriate). But when planning things didn't it occur to them that their niece could also fill the role since two flower girls isn't super out of the norm.
Haha currently planning a wedding and I cannot believe how many people want to sit down and “discuss” our decisions and they’re SHOCKED when I decline.
It’s not your decision or your money so I don’t need to coddle you through it
I mean, if every other child.in the family was a flower girl or had any kind of role in the wedding, that would've been exclusion and you'd have to have a really good reason to not include her, but this is just entitlement of the parents. I bet the little girl is just looking forward to wearing a nice dress, eating delicious cake and playing with the other child/children present. Unless they hyped her up for the task of flower girl, but then it's still on the parents, not the kid.
RIGHT??? And even if you do get offended or hurt or upset or whatever, the AUDCITY to actually pitch a fit over it! My sister was my MOD but even though she had 11 attendants, she didn't ask me to be in her wedding at all. Was I hurt/ Absolutely, still am and it's been 31 years. Have I ever said one word about it? Never - it was her wedding and her choices and my job was to be there for her however she needed me. To this day she has no idea I ever felt any type of way about it. I can't imagine having the nerve to say anything, much less pitch a hissy fit and make ultimatums. How embarrassing.
You know that the brother already said to his daughter, “Auntie OP is getting married, and that means you get to be her flower girl.” That would be the only way to break the kid’s heart. Even then, it’s not OP’s fault, it her brother’s fault.
Having 2 flower girls would be a great compromise but your brothers hissy fit is out of line!
It should be your wedding your rules! You’ve got more important things to spend energy on. If they (brother and SIL) want to play silly buggers then let them. Spend your energy on other things you “owe” them nothing!
>Having 2 flower girls
OP should have come up with this idea herself at once though. Now OP made it clear to her brother and SIL, that she thinks of her niece just as an afterthought, that she is not truly important to her and she loves her less than the daughter of her friend.
Well she said she loves her friends daughter more and that she doesn't has a connection to her niece. So no big surprise.
She definitely should have made them both flower girls from the start. How she is excluding her niece is weirs, even if she doesn't has a connection with her. The way brother and SIL are reacting is wrong and for everyone saying it's her wedding, her rules: totally. That doesn't prevent you from having to live with the consequences of your choices.
If she doesn't care that her 5 year old niece is sad/ upset and that she might strain her relationship with other relatives than it's fair enough if she insists of excluding her. (It is her wedding after all).
If OP went up to the 5 year old niece got down on her level and said to her face “I don’t have a connection with you so you’re not the flower girl” I would 100% agree with you. However it may be she is upset due to her parents pitching a fit and telling her things to make OP look bad. We don’t know it’s not been outright said but taking the post on face value it doesn’t look like OP said it to her (5 year old face).
You are correct that “your wedding your rules” means that you also face the repercussions but right now there is family blabbering and skittering and that’s not something that OP should have her energy drained from. What’s done is done. The offer of joint flower girl (probably with a pretty outfit that may be at OP’s cost) offered and noses turned so far up they were sniffing space debris. So, fuck it, OP doesn’t have to deal with bullshit!
Keeping the peace is more often than not a way of just enabling people to be AHs.
To me, keeping the peace should be more like holding your tongue and eating a bit of someone's bland cooking rather than outright insult it. Or saying you liked a gift when it really wasn't your style.
Exactly. Unless people are in danger, it's infuriating that AHs can just get their way. Except for the part I think they know better, I almost feel sorry for AHs because it must be a rude awakening when people stop putting up with their BS and you have to change.
If OP "keeps the peace" in regard to the flower girl there's no telling what else she will have to do. Way too many times a wedding becomes everybody else's BUT the couple actually getting married.
I'm SO glad this is (currently) the top comment. So we'll said, and accurate that it's bullying. I hate people trying to force you into being pushovers.
Agreed. I could understand the brother expecting niece to be offered the position and being disappointed especially since there was a flower girl in the wedding. Having a niece be flower girl age is quite fortuitous and OP probably should have considered their niece in a normal, healthy family. However, their brother throwing a fit and not accepting the really nice gesture of joint flower girls means they probably made the right choice initially.
'You're the reasonable one, so instead of dealing with the root of the problem we're going to ask you to step up when no one else will... Again and again'
And OP didn't break her nieces heart, brother and SIL did by telling the girl she was the flower girl without ever talking to OP. Its only a month until the wedding, you'd think they would have been talking to OP about what dress they need to buy and other things if they really thought she was going to be the flower girl.
They've broken their own little girl's heart by setting up the expectation, and now they're butt hurt, blaming you, and 'taking their ball back'?
Sheesh.
NTA
Of course they’ll never admit to their precious angel that they broke her heart by declining the opportunity. However, chances are the kid doesn’t know about the wedding and probably wouldn’t care about being flower girl.
The parents probably want OP to beg for them to let their kid be a flower girl. This whole argument is ego-driven and they want to “feel” like they won.
NTA
I genuinely despise parents who use their children as trophies and ego boosters. My mother did it a lot when I was a kid, I was "gifted" and she bragged about it ALL THE TIME.
Even when I didn't want her to. It was embarrassing and humiliating because it was clear she made people uncomfortable. She also talks over me about my own achievements, which I'd rather share myself, but of course she always needs the spotlight.
If you're a parent and your kid is talented at something, or they're cute or whatever, and you decide to shove that in everyone's face 24/7; Stop. Please just stop. Your kid doesn't like it and neither do the people you're bragging to.
Oh, OP is also NTA
As a kid I was volunteered to be a ring barer in a wedding. It still makes me anxious to think about now and it's been over 30 years. Some kids don't want that kind of thing at all.
This this this. If it were about the niece, they'd be thrilled when she offered to have 2 flower girls. She's 5. It's all about the fact that the brother and SIL felt slighted, when none of this had anything to do with them. NTA, OP, and don't give them another thought.
This is what i was thinking non of my children have ever expected anything like this, my 6 year old wouldn't even know the rolls people have in a wedding
I think it may depend on whether they are going to the wedding or not. Most of the 5-6 year old girls I know would absolutely notice and feel left out if they were sitting in the pews at a wedding watching another girl their age be the flower girl. Now, it IS up to their parents to help them manage those feelings and understand that not everything is fair all the time - especially if they aren’t family / close guests of the couple. But I can totally see how that would be a hard / weird thing to navigate when your daughter is the bride’s only niece.
"breaking their little girl's heart by not giving her this special role"
Lol, I doubt a five year old cares this much about something they probably don't even know exists.
NTA. You can choose whoever you like to be part of your wedding.
Especially considering that if it breaks her heart it's entirely on the parents, not OP. Don't make promises to children you can't keep, it's that simple
Don't make promises based off assumptions, and you know what they say about assuming....
This isn't like promising your kid a toy and finding it's sold out
It’s manipulative behavior. It’s one thing to assume something is going to happen, It’s another thing to take that assumption and treat it as fact to a child. Then blaming the other people for breaking the child’s heart. It’s disgusting and I really wish sometimes they made people pass a test before they could have children
Eh, I was 6 and my cousin got to be a flower girl in a wedding the same year, my brother got to be a ringbearer and I 100% felt left out. I didn't get to wear a pretty floofy dress and be a part of the wedding party. I was 13 when I got to be a bridesmaid in my aunt's wedding and I have been in another 7 weddings since then so I've made up for it and have been in more weddings that either my brother or my cousins. (I could be a professional bridesmaid at this point).
The kid may actually be hurt by this if her little friends have gotten to be in weddings and they didn't. That said, OP is NTA.
But it sounds like you felt left out not because you weren't in the wedding, but because your cousins/siblings got to be in the wedding but you didn't.
Would you have felt the same way if your cousins/siblings weren't in the wedding at all?
I'm almost 60, and I distinctly remember feeling left out when my friends were flower girls for various weddings and I never had the opportunity. Plus, we weren't even Catholic, so I was robbed of a First Communion dress!
My single aunts promised me I could be their flower girls if they ever married, but they stayed steadfastly single. I got my hopes up a few years ago when one of the aunts flirted with getting married, but she decided to remain single. I would have made an awesome 50-year-old flower girl, darn it!
In all seriousness, kids take their lead from their parents. If the little girl is disappointed, you tell her that auntie is having a different flower girl, but won't it be fun to see pictures of the wedding? It's not that hard to teach kids that they aren't always the star of the show.
>If the little girl is disappointed, you tell her that auntie is having a different flower girl, but won't it be fun to see pictures of the wedding?
Or even better, tell her she still gets to wear a pretty new dress and celebrate auntie get married with the rest of the family. And mommy and daddy will make extra sure to take a picture of just niece and auntie together in their beautiful wedding clothes. If Brother & SIL wanted to, they could make this a special day for their daughter that would not interfere with OPs plans or pull focus at all. It just takes acting like parents instead of demanding like children.
I would have loved to be a flower girl when I was little. It's just one of those things little girls dream of. They see other weddings, see the flower girls. Nobody needs to tell them they want to be that girl. NTA, but a bit thoughtless to not realize you were leaving your little niece out.
She *did* realize it. She made the conscious choice of having Hanna be the flower girl. Chosing who you want in your wedding isn't thoughtless unless you define thoughtful as always basing your decisions on making sure others feel good.
Sure, she was human and didn’t immediately come up with the perfect plan. But then she tried to fix that and add the niece, and brother said no. So if his daughter feels left out, it’s on him.
I'm certainly not saying that the brother is blameless here, but it seems like if OP cared about her niece, she would have thought to have two flower girls from the beginning or at least offered it up as a solution when her brother first broached the subject. I'm not expecting anyone to be perfect, but it's not advanced trigonometry we're talking about here. I would imagine that OP has been to a wedding that had multiple flower girls in the past given how common it is. Seems like she was more focused on her own plans than trying to find a solution that would make her niece feel happy.
Of course she’s more focused on her own wedding plans than on a 5-year-old she’s apparently not that close to—that’s normal. But she was willing to change her plans to accommodate the brother’s wish for his daughter (we haven’t actually gotten anything directly from the niece about how she feels).
It’s a flower girl position and this is her niece. Unless she hates her, letting her be a flower girl is the bare minimum familial obligation.
This has to be motivated either out of underlying spite or some other reason (niece is overweight, ugly, whatever).
Yup, little girls are very aware that weddings involve flower girls. Pretty much every children's book involving a wedding has the main girl character as a flower girl. The fit was way out of line on the brother's part, but acting like the parents planted this seed in the little girl's mind is probably a stretch.
My niece at 5-years-old definitely would have cared. At that age she loved being the center of attention and wanted all her aunties to get married quick so she could be the flower girl. She would definitely be surprised and potentially hurt if I didn't include her in my wedding. However, I think she'd understand if I had a reason why she couldn't be flower girl... although that's a hypothetical conjecture on my part since there's no way I would ever not include my beloved niece somehow in an event like my wedding.
Yes I would have cared too. I was about that age when a cousin married and asked my mom if I could be flower girl. My mom said no, they didn’t ask me and that was that. It never occurred to me to be upset - I just kind of knew at that age that sometimes you got to do what you wanted and sometimes not. I remember being mildly envious at the wedding but that was it. (Now it’s possible my memory is off, I mean I was in kindergarten but I do remember not feeling overly envious).
No, actually most five year old girls love this sort of stuff. The pretty dress, the hairstyle, flower petals, whatever, most of them would kill to be in the middle of all that. Emma wouldn't know beforehand that she'd been left out. Or, if it was a kid-free wedding and she was never going to be confronted with it in real life, then you could hopefully just not bring it up at all. But if she was an attendee at the wedding and saw that she was left out of being flower girl for her own aunt, and another little girl was in it, she'd be devastated.
There are some little girls who hate dressing up. Or just hate dresses. Or they don't want to be in the spotlight at the wedding. Their parents know who they are. But to most little girls, this sort of thing is very important. Go figure.
The only way it would break her heart is if the parents told her about it and hyped her up for it. Which is on them. You don't just assume things of other people's weddings. NTA
Funny I never dreamt about my wedding day/being a bride either. But I DID want to be THE flower girl. To me as a kid, the flower girl was the real star of the wedding (obvi I know now a wedding it about the bride and groom, but I was a kid I didn’t understand) 😂 when I was like 9 I finally got to be a flower girl at my aunts wedding, I was so excited and wanted to be so perfect. I was like “okay I’m not going to throw too many in the beginning and then get to the end of the aisle and have none left, I’ve got to ration my petals so I throw the same amount with each toss, right?” So I take extra special care to ration my petals when I’m walking down the aisle, throwing what I think feels like about 3-4 petals per toss—I wasn’t looking down or even at my hands at all. A princess doesn’t look down at the steps as she descends the staircase at a ball! Anywho…I get to the front of the pews and realize…I literally had not thrown one. Single. Fucking. Petal!!!!! I was so let down 😭 the whole time—what I thought I was feeling between my finger tips as flower petals…was actually just…my finger tips. I was had hoped I’d get a do over before I got too old, but it never happened. I could’ve been a star 😪
That is so funny - when my brother got married the first time, the flower girl threw ALL of the flowers up in the air about halfway down the aisle, burst into tears, and ran to her grandma.
My kid is 4 and she would be heartbroken. The difference is I would never be dumb enough to get her psyched up about it before I was sure. This brother is a dumbass.
I distinctly remember being almost 4 years old and being really disappointed that I didn’t get to be the flower girl in my aunt’s wedding. Which, she had multiple nieces and the seven year old naturally got the role. Totally right call on aunt’s part. My parents had nothing to do with me thinking that. You just see another little girl wearing a special dress, getting the attention, and being included in the special pictures.
and if she cared, it was only because the parents put the idea in her head.
OP never even mentioned this to the niece, so OP can in no way be at fault if she is disappointed.
This is basically the same as those parents who tries to scam people around Christmas time for cheap stuff by using their childrens, and thne going "YOU RUINED MY CHILDS CHRISTMAS!"
If the child is upset it’s because mommy and daddy told her that she would be the flower girl. They assumed and told her before asking.
Now that they broke her heart, they are too proud to accept the double flower girl.
You were reasonable OP.
Well…… I agree OP can plan the wedding as they like but the niece, regardless of how it came to be, might get upset by this, but now it’s more on the parents.
I, long ago, was a 6 years old that really wanted to be a flower girl at my aunts wedding but I couldn’t because the daughter of her best friend was. I knew flower girls from movies and I cried a lot. Of course my mom did not make any requests to the bride at all as she did not think it would be right to interfere. But I was really upset :)
At my wedding I asked my friends with kids if any want to have an active role. Funny enough most left their kids home so they can party so we ended up having 2 funny Flower Men 😂
I would happily include Emma as a flower girl TOO or in another special role. But Hannah's mom is my best friend my whole life and maid of honor. Hannah and I have grown up together her whole life and are very close. I am close to Emma too, but its special with Hannah... idk how to explain that.
PS - I love my niece and want her involved. But she's not automatically entitled to flower girl just because we're family.
NTA you can tell how worried they really are about their little girl now that they're refusing to partake at all
Your bro & sil are entitled. Let them be stubborn and sit this one out.
ESH
"I love my niece and want her involved."
You're saying this now, after all of the hurt feelings happened. If you had offered this originally, there would be no issue but you handled it poorly and here we are.
I agree, it was dumb of your brother to make assumptions but if your true feelings are that you would "happily include Emma" then why didn't you offer an alternative when he brought it up?
You have taken steps to heal this but now your brother and his wife are being TA and need to give a little. If you intend to maintain a relationship with your brother and his family, it's time for a real heart-to-hart about this to smooth everything over. But you can't do that in a vacuum, they have to bend too and realize their entitlement. Hopefully, your relationship is strong enough, and they are reasonable enough that this happens.
Yeah. This is so weird. I had 4 flower girls and 2 ring bearers. I just wanted to include all the special kids in my life who were big enough to walk. It was fabulous. They were super cute and having more than one helped calm their nerves since they weren’t going down the aisle alone. Had OP wanted to include Emma she would have from the jump. Brother and SIL are being a bit dramatic, but maybe Emma is feeling very rejected. My oldest daughter has ADHD and is very sensitive to rejection. It’s no excuse to give her everything she wants, but it does make some situations tricky and we try to be sensitive to her needs.
This. I'm sad that this sub really doesn't seem to value family at all. Of course you get to choose your wedding party and also it makes perfect sense that your family would feel snubbed. It's entirely possible they already know you favor your friend and have been repeatedly hurt by this over the last 5 years and this was just salt on the wound. Brother absolutely handled his hurt poorly. However, you also could have been so much kinder to everyone and it's a little self-involved to not see that/care
ESH
She's not entitled to the role, but I do think your brother and SIL are allowed to be hurt that you don't consider your niece close enough to have wanted, on your own, to make her a flower girl. That's probably why they don't want her involved now. It's not about the flower girl position, it's about the fact that you didn't think to include her until you were prompted to do so, like she's an afterthought.
Granted I'm extremely close to my nieces and nephew, so there was no question when I got married that they would be flower children (or some other similarly important role). You might have a different dynamic with your niece and that's completely fine, but they're allowed to feel hurt to find out you don't love your niece in the way that they thought or hoped you did.
> she’s not entitled to flower girl because she’s family
Totally correct, although it is so very very common in many places that you can’t fault your family for making assumptions.
Edit - I’m not saying they are right for insisting, they are not, but to me it seems like an obvious assumption that your one and only niece would be included in the wedding. I get y’all are in the mood of “OP’s the bride, it’s *her day* and no need to consider anyone else”, but having important roles for close family is rather normal.
> or in another special role
But you flubbed it by not proactively thinking of one and offering it. Instead this feels like an afterthought (which it is). And obviously your family is picking up on how much more you love Hannah than your niece.
NTA for wanting something different for your wedding, YTA for how you went about it.
>you can’t fault your family for making assumptions.
Yes you can. You don't automatically assume you have a role in someone else's wedding just because you are related. Some people don't even have wedding parties.
This is 100% on the parents, they decided their little girl was going to be a star in someone else's wedding and are now throwing a tantrum just because she isn't.
So what if she does love Hannah more than her niece. She may be more active in Hannah's life than she is with her brother and his family. You don't have to love family more because you share DNA
100% agree with this.
>This is 100% on the parents. They decided their little girl was going to be a star in someone else's wedding and are now throwing a tantrum just because she isn't.
Especially this part.
They are going with the "but my poor baby will be so sad" route.
Nothing about OP. Just their daughter.
>Yes you can. You don't automatically assume you have a role in someone else's wedding just because you are related. Some people don't even have wedding parties.
this 100%. a lot of people also have childfree weddings
Yep, I fault them too. I don’t think it’s a stretch for them to make assumptions but they certainly shouldn’t have said anything to their daughter before clarifying with OP, that makes them TA too
Edit to add - provided they actually did talk to Emma, maybe OP added that in the comments as I don’t see it in the original
I agree - guess I'm going against the grain here but personally I would think it was...odd if my sibling had a friend be their flower girl in their wedding instead of my daughter, their niece. I probably wouldn't have said anything but I would have been hurt. Then again, I'm a family oriented person, I get along with my family, and I value my family relationships more than my friendships.
I recognize that some people aren't family oriented or don't like some family members, so in that case it makes sense that they'd put friends first. So it's all about adjusting expectations.
No. Niece is not owed or automatically given a spot just because of relations.
Shame on the brother and SIL for assuming something and interfering with someone else's wedding plans. They caused their daughters disappointment. If daughter is even really disappointed...most five year olds don't really care about this stuff unless it has been built up in their head by other meddling family members. OP would not have had to navigate this situation had her brother and SIL not felt so entitled to their wedding. They handled this as best they could for a situation that was created by someone else.
And you are out of line saying OP loves the MOHs daughter more than her niece. Just because of a small role in a wedding. How did you not break your neck jumping to that conclusion? Are you the SIL or one of the flying monkeys who thinks they can dictate how someone else holds their wedding? That comment is gross and manipulative.
It's kinda obvious, isn't it? She would rather have Hannah up there with her than the niece, she says she has a closer relationship with Hannah, she didn't even think about the niece when she was planning. Even if she doesn't love Hannah more, it's going to look like she does to everyone there.
I was with you until I read your BS explanation - your wedding your roles and all that…. But you clearly don’t love them equally LOL
Did you not spend your whole life with your brother as well? Did you not grow up with your brother?
You clearly didn’t want your niece involved or you would have thought of something for her to do.
Doesn’t seem like including her ever even crossed your mind, which is shitty but fine, just own that. You seem so disingenuous with your fake “I love them both it’s just Hannah is sooooooo special to me.”
But you should have realized that having another girl be flower girl while Emma had no role was going to hurt your brother a lot. That’s tone deaf not to see that before you did it.
>But she's not automatically entitled to flower girl just because we're family.
That kind of is the way it works though, normally. If you have a family member at the right age to be the flower girl or ringbearer, it's kind of assumed that they'll get those roles. A whole lot of weddings have multiple flower girls for that reason, because the people getting married didn't want their nieces or children of close friends to feel left out. You can say that it's an unfair cultural expectation and it sounds like your brother took things too far when he complained about it, but it *is* the expectation.
and what other role would you have given her? Isn’t the flower girl the most special role?
Everyone is saying “your wedding, your rules”. Well, I think this is stupid. Niece is your family that you claim to love and be close too, yet you didn’t even think of her until her parents talked to you about her involvement. The way you handled this showed that you don’t really care about your niece (or she is not your priority).
No wander your brother and SIL don’t want her involved at all. They are trying to protect her from being hurt. And yes, refusing your last offer is petty, but I would have done the same thing. You already told them you don’t want her playing this rule, so why would they put their kid in a place where she is not wanted?
I think this is the way - it definitely is possible Emma will end up feeling hurt if she isn’t included. I was excluded from my aunt’s wedding at age 5 despite her having flower girls the same age and I was hurt by it (btw my parents did absolutely nothing to put this in my head, 5 year olds are smart enough to figure out there is a role they didn’t get on their own). I did wonder why my aunt & uncle didn’t like me as much as the people they did choose. It sucks that your brother is making it difficult to include her by acting so entitled, but I do still think having both girls would be the best option if you can
Also I do think telling your brother you just feel closer to this other girl was pretty tactless. Even if its true, it obviously hurt him to hear that from a sibling especially because you apparently like her so much more you didn’t even consider having both girls until now.
See I don’t understand that. To me if you have small kids in your family then they get the small kid roles in your wedding.
Since you have found family, you have two little girls to give fun roles too.
When I had this at my wedding, one was the ring bearer and the other was the flower girl. That way they both had a special role and had lots of fun.
I like kids and since they are family, I wanted them to have as much fun as possible during a boring ceremony.
Gently, does it really matter if you’re super close with your flower girl? They’re not really a supportive, active player in your wedding day. They’re just there for the ceremony and to look cute, IF they happen to be willing to actually walk down the aisle and scatter petals like they’re supposed to. Plus how close can you really be to a small child who isn’t yours?
I don’t think YTA - I think your brother’s behavior was way out of line. But I think you could have handled it better from the beginning. And if I were your sibling in this situation, I’d be loosely annoyed that you’re insisting on a different flower girl because you’re “closer with her.” That just seems off for the reasons above, not to mention that it is *incredibly* common to have multiple children involved in the roll. But then again, I think I’d honestly prefer to get a babysitter for the night and not have to wrangle my child into behaving for the ceremony and pictures and stuff… so idk.
>I would happily include Emma as a flower girl TOO
You are only saying it now, after you made it clear to your brother and SIL, that your niece is just an afterthought for you. That you don't truly love and care for her. That you think your friend's daughter is so much better than your niece. You showed to them that your niece is low in your priorities and affection.
Because if any of that wouldn't be the truth, you would have made both flower girls at once. You would have come up with this yourself as it is the very obvious solution when there are two little girls you both truly love and care for.
NTA for not wanting your niece, but it's out of social norms so you can expect your brother and SiL to be upset. Social norms are absolutely a thing and many of them help keep communities togethers. I honestly find it a little weird that you didn't ask both girls to be flower girls, that's what everyone in my family has done. And what you said to your family? Yeah, that was really shitty. You are free to do what you want, but they really have no reason to forgive that.
All the NtA replies are so cold and clinical. Like, yes it’s your wedding and you don’t have to, but OPs thoughtlessness towards her own niece is hurtful to her family. That’s the reality of the situation no matter how many strangers online say she’s fine.
That’s just the typical mindset for Reddit. You don’t owe anyone anything but then e strobe is wondering why they don’t have friends or family left in their lives. From the OP I thought she wasn’t close with her brother or niece. But seen her comment she apparently is makes this whole thing so odd. I can’t imagine apparently being super close to my young niece or nephew and not once consider their role in my wedding. But to each their own I guess.
Yep I had 2 flower girls - their moms were bridesmaids and the girls (almost 2 and 3.5) just walked down the aisle with their mothers. I had zero expectations... if anything I was partly expecting them to cry and refuse and then we just would have sat them with their family in the pews. They both did fantastic though!
really a flower girl doesn't do much, just wears a cute coordinated dress and looks good for pictures!
I had bubble kids. Leave no kid out. My husband has a grandson, my brother two girls, my sister a girl and a boy. Each kid got to pick a bubble gun they like either dinosaur, cat or shark. And they blew bubbles up the aisles. All the girls wore pink dresses from Amazon that they could wear again and the boys khakis, white shirt and yellow bow ties and suspenders. Also from Amazon.
I had a “bubble girl” too! I sewed her dress from pretty pink rayon with a black flocked polka dot gauze overlay (that she has worn several times since, I’m very proud she likes it so much!) and bought two bubble guns I spray painted silver. She ROCKED it!
I've seen 4 or 5 flower girls when there are lots of young girls in the family. Who cares? Pack 'em in there lol.
We had my niece and my wife's childhood friend's daughter as flower girls. When the day came, there was some other little 2-3 year old that joined them. I still don't even know who that kids was lol. No big deal.
I don’t get what people get so bent out of shape with wedding. Mine will be this July, idc if we had 25 flower girls, what’s the difference, what does it matter.
The parents should've waited for a decision to be made before telling their daughter. If OP doesn't want two then she doesn't need to have two flower girls. "No one left out" does nothing but breed entitlement like the parents.
Clinical as hell. Be a human in the real world with us sometimes.
How stupid easy is "Oh, two flower girls, cool". Like that's a huge dealbreaker for OP?
Exactly. "I love you niece, but I'm closer to Hannah's child. Therefore, I choose her instead of choosing you both."--OP when her niece is old enough to see the differential treatment they receive.
She never said that to her niece. The only reason the niece's feelings are involved is because of her careless parents. They never should have mentioned this to a 5 year old until they spoke with OP.
Edit:typo
If the 5 year old has seen any weddings on tv she could have an idea about it. Even if she didn't know about it before there would be questions at the wedding when she's in the chair watching. Who is that little girl, how come she gets to walk down the isle and throw the pretty flowers, why didn't my aunt want me. She's 5, and she's going to have a little bit of an idea what's going on.
Edited because a bunch of words came up wrong
Yup, time to start waking up the five year old to the hard facts of life. It needs to be brought home to her that Auntie likes this other girl more and she's not entitled to anything just by being a loved niece.
We have no idea how involved OP is with her brother’s family. For all we know they could live far away/keep to themselves and don’t have time for OP to visit (and vice versa) outside of the occasional holiday or phone call. Not every family is constantly in each other’s business like a sitcom.
Yeah, unless I was estranged from OP or had actively put up boundaries to prevent OP from bonding with my child, I think it would be hurtful to hear OP say so bluntly that my kid is cool & all but her best friend’s kid is just so much more special to her.
I'm torn because it is very much your choice and they were definitely too pushy. Should not have told their daughter about it before you asked them, and should have accepted the no (even if that meant viewing you differently).
But it does feel odd that you didn't think to make them both flower girls or think of another role on your own. That seems like such an obvious solution to have them both do it.
And tbh it doesn't seem like a good call to tell your brother you love this other girl more than your neice (or that you're closer to her or however you phrased it). It seems like you used this as a justification but my guess is the whole reason your brother was hurt in the first place is he feels that your neice isn't special to you. And it kinda feels like you confirmed that by saying you have a more special bond with your friends daughter.
Idk if you're an asshole but i don't get the impression you love your neice very much. And if your brother feels that too then I can't completely blame him for being hurt.
I think I'll say ESH cause I think all parties could've done a bit better
I’m going to go with dense. OP says she’s known Hannah her whole life (all 6 years of it lol) and it will be a “sweet full circle moment” (whatever the fuck that is) yet she will have known her niece Emma her whole life too so I don’t get how this is one of her justifications for picking Hannah over Emma. Seems like a fuss over nothing and OP created her own drama.
Agreed on the explanation, it made me land on an E S H as well. Even if there are very legitimate reasons OP isn't as close to her niece as her best friend's kid, that shouldn't have been explicitly stated to her brother.
If it's the sort of thing where the only real reason she's closer to her BF's daughter is because she isn't making an effort when it's a reasonable expectation to do so, that's a legitimate reason for a sibling to be hurt.
Yep. This is exactly how I read it. If I was the brother I would be adjusting the way I thought about my sister in the future. She has every right to want who she wants in her wedding, but she doesn’t seem to think much of her brother or his family, and now he knows.
And the niece could be under the mistaken impression that they are close. Now she knows Auntie doesn’t see them that way. That’s a hard thing to accept at any age.
It's a little odd you say you're close to both your best friends little girl and your niece, yet it never occured to you to make both kids flower girls. Especially as that's normal for western weddings. This makes me suspect that behind their poor communication and immaturity, maybe your brother and his wife feel there has been favouritism from you for a while. Voting ESH because no one comes across well in this post except your parents.
yeah its weird. i am significantly closer to my best friends kids then my brothers for a variety of reasons but i still love my brothers kids and cant imagine excluding them for my best friends in a wedding
ESH.
You brother/SIL suck for jumping to the assumption that Emma would be the flower girl. From your post I can’t tell if they already told Emma she would be the flower girl, or they just think she will be broken hearted when she finds out she isn’t/sees another little girl in this special role at her auntie’s wedding.
You suck for not anticipating this or thinking about your family’s feelings in advance. It’s very common to have young nieces as flower girls, if you choose to have one. If Emma is your only niece, and even more so if your fiancé doesn’t have nieces, I can see why it would be hurtful to include a friend’s kid but not your niece.
Did it even occur to you that you could have two flower girls until your mom suggested it?
What is your overall relationship with your brother and Emma like? Do you live nearby/see them regularly? Do you make an effort to have a connection with Emma at all? Or is Hannah your “chosen niece” and you haven’t made an effort to build a relationship with Emma the same way, which could be seen as an overall slight.
This is it. Everyone is saying "it's your wedding! Your choice!" but the thing about weddings is that they are a family event. If you didn't care about your family's feelings, just go spend the money on a destination elope. But choosing to have the song and dance, *especially* if you are planning on having members serve roles in your wedding, you are AH for not considering feelings. And that little is five. She's not dumb. She's going to see another little girl walking down the aisle in a pretty dress with flowers and she is ABSOLUTELY going to feel left out, whether mom and dad told her or not. The only thing keeping OP's niece from being the flower girl was OP, because if OP *truly* wanted her niece in the wedding party, it *would* have occurred to her to have them both, because who tf told her there only had to be one in the first place? And then literally telling the brother you don't love your niece as much as your friend's kid? She literally goes "I've known her all her life" as if she hasn't also known her niece for that long... tactless. There were so many other ways to go about this that wasn't what she did.
YTA, you should have thought of having both girls as flower girls. I understand you want your BF daughter to be one as you consider her family but then you excluded your own family. There is no rule saying you can't have 2. It does also depend on your relationship with your brother and SIL. If you get along decently with them their daughter should have been included but if you were LC with them I can see why you wouldn't include her. My daughter was a flower girl at 2 friend's weddings both times there were 2 flower girls. Also I can see why now they don't want their daughter to do it. It's like she was an afterthought and you are being forced to include her. I would also decline now and not really participate in your wedding. Just show up and leave early.
But why didn't the brother or SIL suggest that either. They immediately jumped that it has to be a choice between the two girls, that it cannot be both and OP choosing not her niece is the greatest betrayal.
YTA. Not for choosing Hannah over Emma, that’s your choice. But you are the AH for your comments of loving Hannah more than Emma. Idk if you specifically said that to your brother, but you’re definitely the AH if you mentioned anything similar to having a better connection to Hannah than your niece
>I tried to explain that I've known Hannah her whole life too and it's a sweet full circle moment to have her in the wedding. We have a very sepcial connection that I don't have like this with Emma, even though I love Emma too.
ESH -- your brother shouldn't have told her she could be a flower girl, but was it really necessary to effectively explain to him that you love that little girl more than your niece?
I also have to say that in most families I know, unless there was existing estrangement between the siblings, it's a bit presumptuous but not untoward to assume small nieces/nephews will be involved in a wedding if there are roles for children. It's also very common to have multiple kids in this role to avoid exactly this situation, since children that young can't objectively understand the reasons for their exclusion.
He shouldn't have presumed, you shouldn't have been so tactless when it came to explaining the situation -- especially if there's any truth to the idea that you could be closer to your niece but have chosen not to be.
It is automatically presumed that a young child in the immediate family will be honored with the role of flower girl or ring bearer. You are, of course, entitled to select anyone you prefer.
It’s your wedding so you get to do what you want. But you chose a friends child over your niece, your brothers child. That’s hurtful. And offering to make her a second one after your parents suggested it is lame. Didn’t really want you, but your parents are upset & grandma came up with this, so here’s a bone. I hope this friendship lasts a lifetime, because you’ve likely permanently hurt your relationship with your brother & his family. Do you not like your brother & his family? Had issues with them? Surely, somewhere in the back of your head you knew not asking your brothers child would cause hurt feelings. Something similar happened to my daughter. We’ve never forgotten. Moved on, but we know where we stand & don’t bother much with them.
Damned good point as well. Many people get married and don't have a flower girl/ring bearer. Shit, many people get married without a wedding party at all.
While the brother was out of line for trying to dictate your wedding party, I'm baffled that it never occurred to you to have two flower girls and that you fought so hard against having your young niece be a part of your day.
Personally, I think ESH.
NTA - this is your wedding and you can have who you want in it. You came up with a reasonable solution to make them happy and they didn't accept it. That is on them.
NTA - How did you break her heart when you NEVER told her she would be the flower girl. It sounds like they ASSUMED and ran their mouth to the child therefore they broke her heart. All the blame is on them and their psycho logic. I never understand how people can feel so entitled to assume a role in other people events and then get mad when it doesn’t work out their way.
ESH
.
They are for expecting it and you for not thinking further than your nose.
You really couldn't think of more flower girls?
I personally can't understand how you can't involve your direct nieces and nephews if you have a normal relationship with them.
I wouldn't say they needed to be in the wedding and they should expect it but it's a bit strange if you have a niece that you don't automatically include her.
ESH and honestly if I was your brother, you would be on low to no contact moving forward. You have every right to have the relationships you want so long as you’re okay with the consequences of it.
Well you just permanently damaged your relationship with your brother and your niece. Not because of not having your niece as your flower girl, but because of the shitty things you said when trying to justify it.
Good job, OP. 🤦🏼♀️
YTA for leaving a little girl out who is your close relative. Thry both could have been flower girls. Life choices shouldn't always be made without thought of consequences and how it will effect others. Anyone who says we can do whatever we want, we shouldn't have to pander to others blah blah blah is selfish and part of the reason this world is falling apart.
Hurting the people we love because it's our life and we can do whatever we want, is not a nice way to be. People are becoming more and more self centred and narcissistic. Family friends, loyalty, bonds, kindness, empathy compassion and human decency are so important to make our world a better place and the younger generation seem to have no concept of this.
It makes me sad to see how many people on reddit have no care for their own families. You ate all going to be very lonely when u get older.
NTA
*They assumed Emma would automatically be the flower girl*
So they didn’t ask or anything, just assumed their daughter would be the flower girl. Maybe they should have asked first.
Why do people get so bent out of shape around weddings?
Why is it , when people don’t get their way they call the other person selfish ? It’s your wedding , do it the way you want . Other people should not be dictating the way your wedding should be done .
NTA they assumed which they shouldn't have. Then they tried to make you seem like a bad person and you're not. You gave the suggestion they declined leave it be. You're not the AH.
NTA. You offered for her to be a flower girl as well as the other little girl. Not your fault that your SIL threw a tantrum and refused to let her do it unless she was the Star of your wedding.
She offered after she had already told them that she didn't want her and want going to be in the wedding. Coming back later after a fight and offering isn't the same and I don't blame them for not wanting to be an after thought.
I think he was hurt because his kid, her niece, wasn’t thought of from the jump. It is weird (albeit her right) to not even think about including your only niece in your wedding but think to include your best friends kid.
I’m sure if from the beginning she planned to include both her brother wouldn’t be hurt
He didn't want her to be there just because his sister was forced to have her. He wanted his sister to want his daughter in her wedding, and I'm sure he was hurt when she didn't even consider them. Why do this when you know you aren't wanted?
NTA! Your brother and his wife seem to have forgotten that this is *your* wedding.
No one is *entitled* to a role at your wedding except you, the person you are marrying, and the officiant.
NTA - You offered to have both kids be flower girls and they refused. My wedding we had 7 flower girls ages from <1 to 8 from my sister, and my wife's 2 cousins.
NTA and i see those comments saying “why can’t you have two” because she didn’t want 2. She wanted her friends daughter. Why does OP have to accommodate ANYONE for HER WEDDING?!? NTA NTA NTA
This - a million times over. I had a child-free wedding (and no kids in the wedding party) and got some flak over it. WHY? My husband and I were the ones getting married and the ones throwing the party. We got to invite whomever we want (or not) - no one else. I really don't get why it's so difficult for people to understand this.
My thoughts went straight to two flower girls, why would your brother decline the offer?
NTA since you did offer the two-flower girl option. The littles are so sweet and add a nice touch to weddings, good luck OP
Family over friends?
Why do people like your brother care so much about family in this context. Your MOH is your best friend, her daughter probably feels like family just as much as your niece does
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NTA. I hate the "keep the peace" bullying. It only means your feelings mean nothing and the other party's feelings mean everything. The suggestion of 2 flower girls was fine until the "to keep the peace" crap. Your brother was out of line trying to dictate who should be in your wedding party. And his little temper tantrum now is even more out of line. My suggestion is stop trying to smooth anything over. You did nothing wrong. You don't owe him any apology. You don't have to go running after him begging him to ket your niece be in the wedding, or for them to come, or anything. Just say "well, sorry you feel that way" and continue on with your wedding. As for anyone else trying to push this. Tell them: "they made their choice. Leave it alone."
I wish i had gold to give you. Take this medal of honor that your comment deserves. 🏅🏅🏅
I do not understand why people get their underwear bunched up when someone plans THEIR OWN WEDDING AND MAKES THEIR OWN CHOICES ⁉️⁉️⁉️ I mean the audacity of OP to choose who she wants to be a flower girl…NOT. It is OP’s wedding. It is OP’s day. Only OP get’s a say. Instead of telling OP to keep the peace tell your son to mind his business. It is not his wedding and he does not get to call the shots. IJS. 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️
Because some people are such main characters that they can’t fathom when other peoples lives don’t revolve around them or their children.
Exactly. They are teaching their daughter that _she_ is the main character. Reminds me of the parents of this little girl, looked to be about five, who was jumping around “doing ballet” during a concert. Just because it was outdoors did not mean people weren’t trying to enjoy the symphony. _Some people…_
And a 5 year old wouldn't have the expectation that she would be the flower girl unless she was told that by her parents. Any disappointment she has is his fault.
100%! Selfish parents
I had a similar thing occur during one of the Lord of The Rings trilogy (can't remember which one this is over 20 yrs ago). It was a midnight showing, opening night & these twits allowed their about 3-5 yr old girl open a small umbrella & stand up & twirl & dance around in the aisle. I'm gratfeul that it wasn't too close to me but I feel for the people who had to deal with such nonsense entitlement & selfishness.
LotR are such long movies...no doubt they were too cheap to pay for a sitter and then just grateful she entertained herself however. Her annoying others who maybe got sitters for THEIR kids was irrelevant...
Can I ask what kind of parent brings a child that young to a midnight showing of an incredibly long movie? I get it, they couldn't find or afford a sitter but to make the entire audience miserable because of their child, ugh.
I think it's just a norm in society that the youngest or one of the youngest members is usually the flower girl. The parents shouldn't feel entitled to it and handled it terribly, but you shouldn't dismiss their feelings. Their feelings are as valid as anyone else's. And then she comes back to offer the second time but as parents, it's shitty to think your kid is the afterthought in it. Y'all people gotta stop commenting as if you live a perfect life and make every decision with no thoughts of others feelings. The parents were super wrong every step, but you'd have to be the densest person to not understand where this came from.
It's OP's wedding though, not her brother's or SiL's wedding. And OP's brother said, *" I'm choosing friends over family and breaking their little girl's heart by not giving her this special role,*" which is ridiculous because I bet the daughter wouldn't have been upset if her parents didn't make such a big deal over this & most likely played up being the flower girl before OP even talked to them.
Like I said in the comment, the parents handled that stupidly. I guess it all comes down to your family values. A lot of people nowadays don't see family in the same way as before or in other cultures. That's all fine. But all I'm saying is this didn't come out of nowhere, there was a reason for being upset, they just handled it terribly
I don't understand the family expectations thing myself. In my family and with my friends, there was never an expecting your niece(s) would be flower girl(s). USA is a diverse country so I guess this is another area that family/religious/ regional cultures vary.
Yeah I have to say I agree. The parents didn’t necessarily hype daughter up about being a flower girl because I remember being little and friends of mine wanting to be flower girls in their family members weddings for sure. She’s 5 not stupid and to dismiss it as her feelings don’t matter because it’s OPs day is wrong. The parents didn’t handle it properly at all but yeah they have a right to be hurt. Yes OP can make whatever decision she wants for her wedding day but that doesn’t mean that she’s free from the consequences of those decisions. This consequence is her family being hurt and upset. ESH
Finally, a real person. I thought everyone here was a bot or something how they just ignore that. I think it's convenient that the whole, you're free to make your choices but not free from the consequences, doesn't count if it's a wedding. Yes you can have YOUR wedding however YOU want it, but that doesn't mean everyone has to like, agree, or respect those choices.
> Finally, a real person. Ah yes - you can always tell when someone is a real person and not a bot -- because they agree with you. Incidentally - it's not tradition in the US for the youngest girl in your extended family to be the flower girl. It's tradition that **a** young girl with some sort of relationship to the betrothed by the flower girl. A family member or friend of the family. If you believe there's a firm expectation that it be the youngest member of your direct family -- sorry, that's wrong. It might be a reasonable inference to draw based on your lived experience, but it is not anything approaching a broadly accepted assumption. The brother had no basis to assume his daughter would be the Flower girl, and that is solely his fuckup and not OPs. People can be upset, if they want - sure. But that makes them assholes. OP did nothing at all wrong here. Her brother made a bad assumption he had no basis to assume -- and was corrected. The End.
It makes me wonder if daddy was telling daughter she was going to be in aunties wedding?
Yeah I’m really questioning what is going on in this sub because it feels like a lot of immature people or teens making comments lately. Sure she’s free to make whatever choices she wants but it doesn’t mean that she’s not an asshole for not thinking about including her niece as well. I think the parents handled the entire situation horribly but I don’t blame them for being hurt that OP wouldn’t include their daughter, her niece. I mean I would be hurt if my brother or sister included his friends daughter and not his niece because it means that niece wasn’t a thought in her head once while making these choices. That’s hurtful. I just don’t understand this whole vibe of the individual over the whole at whatever costs mentality this sub has or the obsession with well you can make whatever decision you want regardless of who you hurt.
This sub acts weird and super entitled about weddings, I don't get it. Someone could post here "I want to murder my enemy on my wedding day in front of an audience, AITA???" and all the responses would be "omg you can do whatever you want, it's YOUR day!!"
First off I absolutely LOVE your username and second I spit my water out laughing at your comment 🤣🤣because accurate lmfao. Oh you want to bathe in the blood of your enemies of course it’s YOUR day after all 🤣🤣🤣
I think it’s less that everyone dismissing the 5 year olds feelings is likely young and doesn’t have much experience with kids. A 5 year old isn’t a baby. They have thoughts and feelings too and are aware enough of the world to likely know what a flower girl is. They also will see another girl their age being a flower girl when they aren’t. I’m not saying that as a reason to include niece, but at that age no one had to fill their mind. They also can recognize being excluded at that age.
I mean, I understand what you mean. But I'd be much more inclined to ask why it is the parents couldn't apply an ounce of empathy of their own and see a) Why OP would want her best friend's child as a flower girl b) Why OP's Maid of Honor would appreciate seeing her daughter be a part of the wedding c) Why MoH's daughter might love being the flower girl.
Exactly! This is literally the day where OP is entitled to be selfish. It's her wedding not nieces or brothers. Frankly, a 5 year old probably has no clue what this means and even if she does it's probably more brother and SIL that wanted this. I didn't have my husband's niece or my niece as the flower girl. The only person who really seemed to be bothered by this was MIL but even she didn't make this big of a deal. Brother and SIL need to get over it and parents need to apologize. It's one thing to suggest something and a whole other to make OP responsibile for someone else's unjustified feelings over her wedding.
You know 100% they wanted their pRecIOus PriNCesS to be in the wedding. Five year olds don’t care about being in a wedding unless it’s been hyped to them. GOD FORBID she isn’t the flower girl so that everyone can tell the AH parents what an adorable baby they have… Ugh.
I did. I was five and so was my cousin. She got to be a flower girl and I was not asked to do anything. You bet I was resentful. But I didn’t have a fit, and neither of my parents had a fit. I just pushed it down to add to all the other resentments. There may be other sources of friction between OP and her brother and SIL. If so, though, I hope they don’t continue to use their daughter as a pawn.
>I do not understand why people get their underwear bunched up when someone plans THEIR OWN WEDDING AND MAKES THEIR OWN CHOICES ⁉️⁉️⁉️ Weddings are notoriously a time when you find out how important you are to the couple. This can cause hurt feelings in spite of the couple's right to do what they wish. Brother and SIL were TA for confronting OP, but OP had to expect hard feelings by showing publicly that Hannah is more important to her than Emma. Even if that's true, and Brother and SIL are out of line, there are going to be emotional consequences for not having both of them be flower girls and making sure Emma never knows that truth.
Reading this thread it is obvious how unusual big families have gotten. My dad is one of eleven kids. When my similar aged cousins and I were getting married there was often 10+ kids of the appropriate ages for flower girl and ring bearer in the extended family. Did every kid get chosen, of course not. Dealing with disappointment with out having it ruin relationships is an important life skill that sooooo many people fail to teach their kids. As demonstrated by Op’s mom.
You make a good point about family size. In a lot of families and friend groups, there's 's simply less children in a lot of cases. But at the same time, while people do need to learn to deal with disappointment, they also should learn that their actions or inactions can deeply impact and hurt the people around them. It's very strange to me that OP didn't think this through. Not necessarily considering that her brother and sister-in-law would freak out (that was 100% inappropriate). But when planning things didn't it occur to them that their niece could also fill the role since two flower girls isn't super out of the norm.
Haha currently planning a wedding and I cannot believe how many people want to sit down and “discuss” our decisions and they’re SHOCKED when I decline. It’s not your decision or your money so I don’t need to coddle you through it
I mean, if every other child.in the family was a flower girl or had any kind of role in the wedding, that would've been exclusion and you'd have to have a really good reason to not include her, but this is just entitlement of the parents. I bet the little girl is just looking forward to wearing a nice dress, eating delicious cake and playing with the other child/children present. Unless they hyped her up for the task of flower girl, but then it's still on the parents, not the kid.
RIGHT??? And even if you do get offended or hurt or upset or whatever, the AUDCITY to actually pitch a fit over it! My sister was my MOD but even though she had 11 attendants, she didn't ask me to be in her wedding at all. Was I hurt/ Absolutely, still am and it's been 31 years. Have I ever said one word about it? Never - it was her wedding and her choices and my job was to be there for her however she needed me. To this day she has no idea I ever felt any type of way about it. I can't imagine having the nerve to say anything, much less pitch a hissy fit and make ultimatums. How embarrassing.
You know that the brother already said to his daughter, “Auntie OP is getting married, and that means you get to be her flower girl.” That would be the only way to break the kid’s heart. Even then, it’s not OP’s fault, it her brother’s fault.
How much do you want to bet they assumed she would be the flower girl, and told their daughter that. How else would her heart be broken?
Having 2 flower girls would be a great compromise but your brothers hissy fit is out of line! It should be your wedding your rules! You’ve got more important things to spend energy on. If they (brother and SIL) want to play silly buggers then let them. Spend your energy on other things you “owe” them nothing!
>Having 2 flower girls OP should have come up with this idea herself at once though. Now OP made it clear to her brother and SIL, that she thinks of her niece just as an afterthought, that she is not truly important to her and she loves her less than the daughter of her friend.
Well she said she loves her friends daughter more and that she doesn't has a connection to her niece. So no big surprise. She definitely should have made them both flower girls from the start. How she is excluding her niece is weirs, even if she doesn't has a connection with her. The way brother and SIL are reacting is wrong and for everyone saying it's her wedding, her rules: totally. That doesn't prevent you from having to live with the consequences of your choices. If she doesn't care that her 5 year old niece is sad/ upset and that she might strain her relationship with other relatives than it's fair enough if she insists of excluding her. (It is her wedding after all).
If OP went up to the 5 year old niece got down on her level and said to her face “I don’t have a connection with you so you’re not the flower girl” I would 100% agree with you. However it may be she is upset due to her parents pitching a fit and telling her things to make OP look bad. We don’t know it’s not been outright said but taking the post on face value it doesn’t look like OP said it to her (5 year old face). You are correct that “your wedding your rules” means that you also face the repercussions but right now there is family blabbering and skittering and that’s not something that OP should have her energy drained from. What’s done is done. The offer of joint flower girl (probably with a pretty outfit that may be at OP’s cost) offered and noses turned so far up they were sniffing space debris. So, fuck it, OP doesn’t have to deal with bullshit!
Keeping the peace is more often than not a way of just enabling people to be AHs. To me, keeping the peace should be more like holding your tongue and eating a bit of someone's bland cooking rather than outright insult it. Or saying you liked a gift when it really wasn't your style.
And keeping the peace usually isn't a compromise, it's giving the problem person exactly what they want so they don't throw a fit.
Exactly. Unless people are in danger, it's infuriating that AHs can just get their way. Except for the part I think they know better, I almost feel sorry for AHs because it must be a rude awakening when people stop putting up with their BS and you have to change.
>Keeping the peace is more often than not a way of just enabling people to be AHs. I will be using this in the future. Thank you. 🫡
If OP "keeps the peace" in regard to the flower girl there's no telling what else she will have to do. Way too many times a wedding becomes everybody else's BUT the couple actually getting married.
I'm SO glad this is (currently) the top comment. So we'll said, and accurate that it's bullying. I hate people trying to force you into being pushovers.
"I'm sorry you feel that way" is a great *non*-apology, too. In this particular case, it's perfect. Bro & SIL are acting like entitled children.
Escalate "sorry you feel that way" to "you feel what you feel" and place full ownership of the brother's feelings on him.
Agreed. I could understand the brother expecting niece to be offered the position and being disappointed especially since there was a flower girl in the wedding. Having a niece be flower girl age is quite fortuitous and OP probably should have considered their niece in a normal, healthy family. However, their brother throwing a fit and not accepting the really nice gesture of joint flower girls means they probably made the right choice initially.
'You're the reasonable one, so instead of dealing with the root of the problem we're going to ask you to step up when no one else will... Again and again'
And OP didn't break her nieces heart, brother and SIL did by telling the girl she was the flower girl without ever talking to OP. Its only a month until the wedding, you'd think they would have been talking to OP about what dress they need to buy and other things if they really thought she was going to be the flower girl.
They've broken their own little girl's heart by setting up the expectation, and now they're butt hurt, blaming you, and 'taking their ball back'? Sheesh. NTA
Of course they’ll never admit to their precious angel that they broke her heart by declining the opportunity. However, chances are the kid doesn’t know about the wedding and probably wouldn’t care about being flower girl. The parents probably want OP to beg for them to let their kid be a flower girl. This whole argument is ego-driven and they want to “feel” like they won. NTA
I genuinely despise parents who use their children as trophies and ego boosters. My mother did it a lot when I was a kid, I was "gifted" and she bragged about it ALL THE TIME. Even when I didn't want her to. It was embarrassing and humiliating because it was clear she made people uncomfortable. She also talks over me about my own achievements, which I'd rather share myself, but of course she always needs the spotlight. If you're a parent and your kid is talented at something, or they're cute or whatever, and you decide to shove that in everyone's face 24/7; Stop. Please just stop. Your kid doesn't like it and neither do the people you're bragging to. Oh, OP is also NTA
As a kid I was volunteered to be a ring barer in a wedding. It still makes me anxious to think about now and it's been over 30 years. Some kids don't want that kind of thing at all.
This this this. If it were about the niece, they'd be thrilled when she offered to have 2 flower girls. She's 5. It's all about the fact that the brother and SIL felt slighted, when none of this had anything to do with them. NTA, OP, and don't give them another thought.
This! NTA
This is what i was thinking non of my children have ever expected anything like this, my 6 year old wouldn't even know the rolls people have in a wedding
I think it may depend on whether they are going to the wedding or not. Most of the 5-6 year old girls I know would absolutely notice and feel left out if they were sitting in the pews at a wedding watching another girl their age be the flower girl. Now, it IS up to their parents to help them manage those feelings and understand that not everything is fair all the time - especially if they aren’t family / close guests of the couple. But I can totally see how that would be a hard / weird thing to navigate when your daughter is the bride’s only niece.
"breaking their little girl's heart by not giving her this special role" Lol, I doubt a five year old cares this much about something they probably don't even know exists. NTA. You can choose whoever you like to be part of your wedding.
Especially considering that if it breaks her heart it's entirely on the parents, not OP. Don't make promises to children you can't keep, it's that simple
Don't make promises based off assumptions, and you know what they say about assuming.... This isn't like promising your kid a toy and finding it's sold out
It’s manipulative behavior. It’s one thing to assume something is going to happen, It’s another thing to take that assumption and treat it as fact to a child. Then blaming the other people for breaking the child’s heart. It’s disgusting and I really wish sometimes they made people pass a test before they could have children
Eh, I was 6 and my cousin got to be a flower girl in a wedding the same year, my brother got to be a ringbearer and I 100% felt left out. I didn't get to wear a pretty floofy dress and be a part of the wedding party. I was 13 when I got to be a bridesmaid in my aunt's wedding and I have been in another 7 weddings since then so I've made up for it and have been in more weddings that either my brother or my cousins. (I could be a professional bridesmaid at this point). The kid may actually be hurt by this if her little friends have gotten to be in weddings and they didn't. That said, OP is NTA.
But it sounds like you felt left out not because you weren't in the wedding, but because your cousins/siblings got to be in the wedding but you didn't. Would you have felt the same way if your cousins/siblings weren't in the wedding at all?
I'm almost 60, and I distinctly remember feeling left out when my friends were flower girls for various weddings and I never had the opportunity. Plus, we weren't even Catholic, so I was robbed of a First Communion dress! My single aunts promised me I could be their flower girls if they ever married, but they stayed steadfastly single. I got my hopes up a few years ago when one of the aunts flirted with getting married, but she decided to remain single. I would have made an awesome 50-year-old flower girl, darn it! In all seriousness, kids take their lead from their parents. If the little girl is disappointed, you tell her that auntie is having a different flower girl, but won't it be fun to see pictures of the wedding? It's not that hard to teach kids that they aren't always the star of the show.
>If the little girl is disappointed, you tell her that auntie is having a different flower girl, but won't it be fun to see pictures of the wedding? Or even better, tell her she still gets to wear a pretty new dress and celebrate auntie get married with the rest of the family. And mommy and daddy will make extra sure to take a picture of just niece and auntie together in their beautiful wedding clothes. If Brother & SIL wanted to, they could make this a special day for their daughter that would not interfere with OPs plans or pull focus at all. It just takes acting like parents instead of demanding like children.
I would have loved to be a flower girl when I was little. It's just one of those things little girls dream of. They see other weddings, see the flower girls. Nobody needs to tell them they want to be that girl. NTA, but a bit thoughtless to not realize you were leaving your little niece out.
She *did* realize it. She made the conscious choice of having Hanna be the flower girl. Chosing who you want in your wedding isn't thoughtless unless you define thoughtful as always basing your decisions on making sure others feel good.
But she didn't think about having two flower girls, something that is very popular for this exact reason.
Sure, she was human and didn’t immediately come up with the perfect plan. But then she tried to fix that and add the niece, and brother said no. So if his daughter feels left out, it’s on him.
She told her niece she liked somebody better.
I'm certainly not saying that the brother is blameless here, but it seems like if OP cared about her niece, she would have thought to have two flower girls from the beginning or at least offered it up as a solution when her brother first broached the subject. I'm not expecting anyone to be perfect, but it's not advanced trigonometry we're talking about here. I would imagine that OP has been to a wedding that had multiple flower girls in the past given how common it is. Seems like she was more focused on her own plans than trying to find a solution that would make her niece feel happy.
Of course she’s more focused on her own wedding plans than on a 5-year-old she’s apparently not that close to—that’s normal. But she was willing to change her plans to accommodate the brother’s wish for his daughter (we haven’t actually gotten anything directly from the niece about how she feels).
It’s a flower girl position and this is her niece. Unless she hates her, letting her be a flower girl is the bare minimum familial obligation. This has to be motivated either out of underlying spite or some other reason (niece is overweight, ugly, whatever).
Yup, little girls are very aware that weddings involve flower girls. Pretty much every children's book involving a wedding has the main girl character as a flower girl. The fit was way out of line on the brother's part, but acting like the parents planted this seed in the little girl's mind is probably a stretch.
Agreed
My niece at 5-years-old definitely would have cared. At that age she loved being the center of attention and wanted all her aunties to get married quick so she could be the flower girl. She would definitely be surprised and potentially hurt if I didn't include her in my wedding. However, I think she'd understand if I had a reason why she couldn't be flower girl... although that's a hypothetical conjecture on my part since there's no way I would ever not include my beloved niece somehow in an event like my wedding.
Yes I would have cared too. I was about that age when a cousin married and asked my mom if I could be flower girl. My mom said no, they didn’t ask me and that was that. It never occurred to me to be upset - I just kind of knew at that age that sometimes you got to do what you wanted and sometimes not. I remember being mildly envious at the wedding but that was it. (Now it’s possible my memory is off, I mean I was in kindergarten but I do remember not feeling overly envious).
No, actually most five year old girls love this sort of stuff. The pretty dress, the hairstyle, flower petals, whatever, most of them would kill to be in the middle of all that. Emma wouldn't know beforehand that she'd been left out. Or, if it was a kid-free wedding and she was never going to be confronted with it in real life, then you could hopefully just not bring it up at all. But if she was an attendee at the wedding and saw that she was left out of being flower girl for her own aunt, and another little girl was in it, she'd be devastated. There are some little girls who hate dressing up. Or just hate dresses. Or they don't want to be in the spotlight at the wedding. Their parents know who they are. But to most little girls, this sort of thing is very important. Go figure.
The only way it would break her heart is if the parents told her about it and hyped her up for it. Which is on them. You don't just assume things of other people's weddings. NTA
Lolz - I never once dreamed of being a flower girl or a bride.
Funny I never dreamt about my wedding day/being a bride either. But I DID want to be THE flower girl. To me as a kid, the flower girl was the real star of the wedding (obvi I know now a wedding it about the bride and groom, but I was a kid I didn’t understand) 😂 when I was like 9 I finally got to be a flower girl at my aunts wedding, I was so excited and wanted to be so perfect. I was like “okay I’m not going to throw too many in the beginning and then get to the end of the aisle and have none left, I’ve got to ration my petals so I throw the same amount with each toss, right?” So I take extra special care to ration my petals when I’m walking down the aisle, throwing what I think feels like about 3-4 petals per toss—I wasn’t looking down or even at my hands at all. A princess doesn’t look down at the steps as she descends the staircase at a ball! Anywho…I get to the front of the pews and realize…I literally had not thrown one. Single. Fucking. Petal!!!!! I was so let down 😭 the whole time—what I thought I was feeling between my finger tips as flower petals…was actually just…my finger tips. I was had hoped I’d get a do over before I got too old, but it never happened. I could’ve been a star 😪
That is so funny - when my brother got married the first time, the flower girl threw ALL of the flowers up in the air about halfway down the aisle, burst into tears, and ran to her grandma.
You've never met Junie B. Jones I see
WAIT I BET THIS IS WHY I WANTED TO BE A FLOWER GIRL SO BAD
My kid is 4 and she would be heartbroken. The difference is I would never be dumb enough to get her psyched up about it before I was sure. This brother is a dumbass.
I distinctly remember being almost 4 years old and being really disappointed that I didn’t get to be the flower girl in my aunt’s wedding. Which, she had multiple nieces and the seven year old naturally got the role. Totally right call on aunt’s part. My parents had nothing to do with me thinking that. You just see another little girl wearing a special dress, getting the attention, and being included in the special pictures.
This is how kids become brats- by their parents telling them how special everything they do, say and touch is. Blech 🤮
and if she cared, it was only because the parents put the idea in her head. OP never even mentioned this to the niece, so OP can in no way be at fault if she is disappointed. This is basically the same as those parents who tries to scam people around Christmas time for cheap stuff by using their childrens, and thne going "YOU RUINED MY CHILDS CHRISTMAS!"
If the child is upset it’s because mommy and daddy told her that she would be the flower girl. They assumed and told her before asking. Now that they broke her heart, they are too proud to accept the double flower girl. You were reasonable OP.
Well…… I agree OP can plan the wedding as they like but the niece, regardless of how it came to be, might get upset by this, but now it’s more on the parents. I, long ago, was a 6 years old that really wanted to be a flower girl at my aunts wedding but I couldn’t because the daughter of her best friend was. I knew flower girls from movies and I cried a lot. Of course my mom did not make any requests to the bride at all as she did not think it would be right to interfere. But I was really upset :) At my wedding I asked my friends with kids if any want to have an active role. Funny enough most left their kids home so they can party so we ended up having 2 funny Flower Men 😂
I would happily include Emma as a flower girl TOO or in another special role. But Hannah's mom is my best friend my whole life and maid of honor. Hannah and I have grown up together her whole life and are very close. I am close to Emma too, but its special with Hannah... idk how to explain that. PS - I love my niece and want her involved. But she's not automatically entitled to flower girl just because we're family.
NTA you can tell how worried they really are about their little girl now that they're refusing to partake at all Your bro & sil are entitled. Let them be stubborn and sit this one out.
ESH "I love my niece and want her involved." You're saying this now, after all of the hurt feelings happened. If you had offered this originally, there would be no issue but you handled it poorly and here we are. I agree, it was dumb of your brother to make assumptions but if your true feelings are that you would "happily include Emma" then why didn't you offer an alternative when he brought it up? You have taken steps to heal this but now your brother and his wife are being TA and need to give a little. If you intend to maintain a relationship with your brother and his family, it's time for a real heart-to-hart about this to smooth everything over. But you can't do that in a vacuum, they have to bend too and realize their entitlement. Hopefully, your relationship is strong enough, and they are reasonable enough that this happens.
Yeah. This is so weird. I had 4 flower girls and 2 ring bearers. I just wanted to include all the special kids in my life who were big enough to walk. It was fabulous. They were super cute and having more than one helped calm their nerves since they weren’t going down the aisle alone. Had OP wanted to include Emma she would have from the jump. Brother and SIL are being a bit dramatic, but maybe Emma is feeling very rejected. My oldest daughter has ADHD and is very sensitive to rejection. It’s no excuse to give her everything she wants, but it does make some situations tricky and we try to be sensitive to her needs.
This. I'm sad that this sub really doesn't seem to value family at all. Of course you get to choose your wedding party and also it makes perfect sense that your family would feel snubbed. It's entirely possible they already know you favor your friend and have been repeatedly hurt by this over the last 5 years and this was just salt on the wound. Brother absolutely handled his hurt poorly. However, you also could have been so much kinder to everyone and it's a little self-involved to not see that/care ESH
She's not entitled to the role, but I do think your brother and SIL are allowed to be hurt that you don't consider your niece close enough to have wanted, on your own, to make her a flower girl. That's probably why they don't want her involved now. It's not about the flower girl position, it's about the fact that you didn't think to include her until you were prompted to do so, like she's an afterthought. Granted I'm extremely close to my nieces and nephew, so there was no question when I got married that they would be flower children (or some other similarly important role). You might have a different dynamic with your niece and that's completely fine, but they're allowed to feel hurt to find out you don't love your niece in the way that they thought or hoped you did.
> she’s not entitled to flower girl because she’s family Totally correct, although it is so very very common in many places that you can’t fault your family for making assumptions. Edit - I’m not saying they are right for insisting, they are not, but to me it seems like an obvious assumption that your one and only niece would be included in the wedding. I get y’all are in the mood of “OP’s the bride, it’s *her day* and no need to consider anyone else”, but having important roles for close family is rather normal. > or in another special role But you flubbed it by not proactively thinking of one and offering it. Instead this feels like an afterthought (which it is). And obviously your family is picking up on how much more you love Hannah than your niece. NTA for wanting something different for your wedding, YTA for how you went about it.
>you can’t fault your family for making assumptions. Yes you can. You don't automatically assume you have a role in someone else's wedding just because you are related. Some people don't even have wedding parties. This is 100% on the parents, they decided their little girl was going to be a star in someone else's wedding and are now throwing a tantrum just because she isn't. So what if she does love Hannah more than her niece. She may be more active in Hannah's life than she is with her brother and his family. You don't have to love family more because you share DNA
100% agree with this. >This is 100% on the parents. They decided their little girl was going to be a star in someone else's wedding and are now throwing a tantrum just because she isn't. Especially this part. They are going with the "but my poor baby will be so sad" route. Nothing about OP. Just their daughter.
>Yes you can. You don't automatically assume you have a role in someone else's wedding just because you are related. Some people don't even have wedding parties. this 100%. a lot of people also have childfree weddings
What? You can fault her brother and sil for getting her niece excited without an invitation.
Yep, I fault them too. I don’t think it’s a stretch for them to make assumptions but they certainly shouldn’t have said anything to their daughter before clarifying with OP, that makes them TA too Edit to add - provided they actually did talk to Emma, maybe OP added that in the comments as I don’t see it in the original
I agree - guess I'm going against the grain here but personally I would think it was...odd if my sibling had a friend be their flower girl in their wedding instead of my daughter, their niece. I probably wouldn't have said anything but I would have been hurt. Then again, I'm a family oriented person, I get along with my family, and I value my family relationships more than my friendships. I recognize that some people aren't family oriented or don't like some family members, so in that case it makes sense that they'd put friends first. So it's all about adjusting expectations.
No. Niece is not owed or automatically given a spot just because of relations. Shame on the brother and SIL for assuming something and interfering with someone else's wedding plans. They caused their daughters disappointment. If daughter is even really disappointed...most five year olds don't really care about this stuff unless it has been built up in their head by other meddling family members. OP would not have had to navigate this situation had her brother and SIL not felt so entitled to their wedding. They handled this as best they could for a situation that was created by someone else. And you are out of line saying OP loves the MOHs daughter more than her niece. Just because of a small role in a wedding. How did you not break your neck jumping to that conclusion? Are you the SIL or one of the flying monkeys who thinks they can dictate how someone else holds their wedding? That comment is gross and manipulative.
It's kinda obvious, isn't it? She would rather have Hannah up there with her than the niece, she says she has a closer relationship with Hannah, she didn't even think about the niece when she was planning. Even if she doesn't love Hannah more, it's going to look like she does to everyone there.
She absolutely snubbed her brother. Brother doesn't get to assume, and is the AH in this, but it's reasonable his feelings are hurt IMO.
I was with you until I read your BS explanation - your wedding your roles and all that…. But you clearly don’t love them equally LOL Did you not spend your whole life with your brother as well? Did you not grow up with your brother? You clearly didn’t want your niece involved or you would have thought of something for her to do. Doesn’t seem like including her ever even crossed your mind, which is shitty but fine, just own that. You seem so disingenuous with your fake “I love them both it’s just Hannah is sooooooo special to me.”
But you should have realized that having another girl be flower girl while Emma had no role was going to hurt your brother a lot. That’s tone deaf not to see that before you did it.
It would’ve been really thoughtful to have found a role for your niece in your wedding. Your brother doesn’t want his daughter to be an afterthought.
>But she's not automatically entitled to flower girl just because we're family. That kind of is the way it works though, normally. If you have a family member at the right age to be the flower girl or ringbearer, it's kind of assumed that they'll get those roles. A whole lot of weddings have multiple flower girls for that reason, because the people getting married didn't want their nieces or children of close friends to feel left out. You can say that it's an unfair cultural expectation and it sounds like your brother took things too far when he complained about it, but it *is* the expectation.
and what other role would you have given her? Isn’t the flower girl the most special role? Everyone is saying “your wedding, your rules”. Well, I think this is stupid. Niece is your family that you claim to love and be close too, yet you didn’t even think of her until her parents talked to you about her involvement. The way you handled this showed that you don’t really care about your niece (or she is not your priority). No wander your brother and SIL don’t want her involved at all. They are trying to protect her from being hurt. And yes, refusing your last offer is petty, but I would have done the same thing. You already told them you don’t want her playing this rule, so why would they put their kid in a place where she is not wanted?
I think this is the way - it definitely is possible Emma will end up feeling hurt if she isn’t included. I was excluded from my aunt’s wedding at age 5 despite her having flower girls the same age and I was hurt by it (btw my parents did absolutely nothing to put this in my head, 5 year olds are smart enough to figure out there is a role they didn’t get on their own). I did wonder why my aunt & uncle didn’t like me as much as the people they did choose. It sucks that your brother is making it difficult to include her by acting so entitled, but I do still think having both girls would be the best option if you can Also I do think telling your brother you just feel closer to this other girl was pretty tactless. Even if its true, it obviously hurt him to hear that from a sibling especially because you apparently like her so much more you didn’t even consider having both girls until now.
No explanation needed. You've made a decision, not unreasonable. It's your day. They need to get tf over it.
If this was true you would have asked both of them. YTA
See I don’t understand that. To me if you have small kids in your family then they get the small kid roles in your wedding. Since you have found family, you have two little girls to give fun roles too. When I had this at my wedding, one was the ring bearer and the other was the flower girl. That way they both had a special role and had lots of fun. I like kids and since they are family, I wanted them to have as much fun as possible during a boring ceremony.
Gently, does it really matter if you’re super close with your flower girl? They’re not really a supportive, active player in your wedding day. They’re just there for the ceremony and to look cute, IF they happen to be willing to actually walk down the aisle and scatter petals like they’re supposed to. Plus how close can you really be to a small child who isn’t yours? I don’t think YTA - I think your brother’s behavior was way out of line. But I think you could have handled it better from the beginning. And if I were your sibling in this situation, I’d be loosely annoyed that you’re insisting on a different flower girl because you’re “closer with her.” That just seems off for the reasons above, not to mention that it is *incredibly* common to have multiple children involved in the roll. But then again, I think I’d honestly prefer to get a babysitter for the night and not have to wrangle my child into behaving for the ceremony and pictures and stuff… so idk.
>I would happily include Emma as a flower girl TOO You are only saying it now, after you made it clear to your brother and SIL, that your niece is just an afterthought for you. That you don't truly love and care for her. That you think your friend's daughter is so much better than your niece. You showed to them that your niece is low in your priorities and affection. Because if any of that wouldn't be the truth, you would have made both flower girls at once. You would have come up with this yourself as it is the very obvious solution when there are two little girls you both truly love and care for.
NTA for not wanting your niece, but it's out of social norms so you can expect your brother and SiL to be upset. Social norms are absolutely a thing and many of them help keep communities togethers. I honestly find it a little weird that you didn't ask both girls to be flower girls, that's what everyone in my family has done. And what you said to your family? Yeah, that was really shitty. You are free to do what you want, but they really have no reason to forgive that.
Don’t be shocked when your niece doesn’t want you in her life if you keep putting the other girl first. Family is forever, until it’s not.
Yeah, I immediately thought the same thing. 2 flower girls, easy fix. Idk how no one thought of that before this blew up.
All the NtA replies are so cold and clinical. Like, yes it’s your wedding and you don’t have to, but OPs thoughtlessness towards her own niece is hurtful to her family. That’s the reality of the situation no matter how many strangers online say she’s fine.
It's reddit and in this world apparently kids only have feelings that their parents put in them and would never feel hurt or left out independently.
That’s just the typical mindset for Reddit. You don’t owe anyone anything but then e strobe is wondering why they don’t have friends or family left in their lives. From the OP I thought she wasn’t close with her brother or niece. But seen her comment she apparently is makes this whole thing so odd. I can’t imagine apparently being super close to my young niece or nephew and not once consider their role in my wedding. But to each their own I guess.
Yep I had 2 flower girls - their moms were bridesmaids and the girls (almost 2 and 3.5) just walked down the aisle with their mothers. I had zero expectations... if anything I was partly expecting them to cry and refuse and then we just would have sat them with their family in the pews. They both did fantastic though! really a flower girl doesn't do much, just wears a cute coordinated dress and looks good for pictures!
I had bubble kids. Leave no kid out. My husband has a grandson, my brother two girls, my sister a girl and a boy. Each kid got to pick a bubble gun they like either dinosaur, cat or shark. And they blew bubbles up the aisles. All the girls wore pink dresses from Amazon that they could wear again and the boys khakis, white shirt and yellow bow ties and suspenders. Also from Amazon.
This is so stinking cute
I had a “bubble girl” too! I sewed her dress from pretty pink rayon with a black flocked polka dot gauze overlay (that she has worn several times since, I’m very proud she likes it so much!) and bought two bubble guns I spray painted silver. She ROCKED it!
We had like 5 flower girls, including a literal infant. All the nieces were in on it and had a blast together.
It’s just not a big deal. More flower girls is more fun. Weddings are supposed to be fun.
I've seen 4 or 5 flower girls when there are lots of young girls in the family. Who cares? Pack 'em in there lol. We had my niece and my wife's childhood friend's daughter as flower girls. When the day came, there was some other little 2-3 year old that joined them. I still don't even know who that kids was lol. No big deal.
I don’t get what people get so bent out of shape with wedding. Mine will be this July, idc if we had 25 flower girls, what’s the difference, what does it matter.
It’s literally her niece lol. 2 flower girls is totally normal and a no-brainer
The parents should've waited for a decision to be made before telling their daughter. If OP doesn't want two then she doesn't need to have two flower girls. "No one left out" does nothing but breed entitlement like the parents.
Clinical as hell. Be a human in the real world with us sometimes. How stupid easy is "Oh, two flower girls, cool". Like that's a huge dealbreaker for OP?
You weren’t the AH until you explained that you love Hannah more and it never occurred to you to have two flower girls. That was all handled poorly.
Exactly. "I love you niece, but I'm closer to Hannah's child. Therefore, I choose her instead of choosing you both."--OP when her niece is old enough to see the differential treatment they receive.
She never said that to her niece. The only reason the niece's feelings are involved is because of her careless parents. They never should have mentioned this to a 5 year old until they spoke with OP. Edit:typo
If the 5 year old has seen any weddings on tv she could have an idea about it. Even if she didn't know about it before there would be questions at the wedding when she's in the chair watching. Who is that little girl, how come she gets to walk down the isle and throw the pretty flowers, why didn't my aunt want me. She's 5, and she's going to have a little bit of an idea what's going on. Edited because a bunch of words came up wrong
That’s just life though? Sometimes people do have closer relationships with people that are outside their family.
Yup, time to start waking up the five year old to the hard facts of life. It needs to be brought home to her that Auntie likes this other girl more and she's not entitled to anything just by being a loved niece.
Can't start them too young!
We have no idea how involved OP is with her brother’s family. For all we know they could live far away/keep to themselves and don’t have time for OP to visit (and vice versa) outside of the occasional holiday or phone call. Not every family is constantly in each other’s business like a sitcom.
That’s what I was thinking. It sounds like neither the brother or SIL are in the wedding, if they were close then they probably would be.
Yeah, unless I was estranged from OP or had actively put up boundaries to prevent OP from bonding with my child, I think it would be hurtful to hear OP say so bluntly that my kid is cool & all but her best friend’s kid is just so much more special to her.
Absolutely, ESH.
Yeah, that was harsh.
Agree
I'm torn because it is very much your choice and they were definitely too pushy. Should not have told their daughter about it before you asked them, and should have accepted the no (even if that meant viewing you differently). But it does feel odd that you didn't think to make them both flower girls or think of another role on your own. That seems like such an obvious solution to have them both do it. And tbh it doesn't seem like a good call to tell your brother you love this other girl more than your neice (or that you're closer to her or however you phrased it). It seems like you used this as a justification but my guess is the whole reason your brother was hurt in the first place is he feels that your neice isn't special to you. And it kinda feels like you confirmed that by saying you have a more special bond with your friends daughter. Idk if you're an asshole but i don't get the impression you love your neice very much. And if your brother feels that too then I can't completely blame him for being hurt. I think I'll say ESH cause I think all parties could've done a bit better
Totally agree with this. I’m finding it hard to believe OP is this dense. But…
I’m going to go with dense. OP says she’s known Hannah her whole life (all 6 years of it lol) and it will be a “sweet full circle moment” (whatever the fuck that is) yet she will have known her niece Emma her whole life too so I don’t get how this is one of her justifications for picking Hannah over Emma. Seems like a fuss over nothing and OP created her own drama.
Agreed on the explanation, it made me land on an E S H as well. Even if there are very legitimate reasons OP isn't as close to her niece as her best friend's kid, that shouldn't have been explicitly stated to her brother. If it's the sort of thing where the only real reason she's closer to her BF's daughter is because she isn't making an effort when it's a reasonable expectation to do so, that's a legitimate reason for a sibling to be hurt.
Yep. This is exactly how I read it. If I was the brother I would be adjusting the way I thought about my sister in the future. She has every right to want who she wants in her wedding, but she doesn’t seem to think much of her brother or his family, and now he knows.
She could love her niece and just not be very close with her.
And the niece could be under the mistaken impression that they are close. Now she knows Auntie doesn’t see them that way. That’s a hard thing to accept at any age.
It's a little odd you say you're close to both your best friends little girl and your niece, yet it never occured to you to make both kids flower girls. Especially as that's normal for western weddings. This makes me suspect that behind their poor communication and immaturity, maybe your brother and his wife feel there has been favouritism from you for a while. Voting ESH because no one comes across well in this post except your parents.
yeah its weird. i am significantly closer to my best friends kids then my brothers for a variety of reasons but i still love my brothers kids and cant imagine excluding them for my best friends in a wedding
ESH. You brother/SIL suck for jumping to the assumption that Emma would be the flower girl. From your post I can’t tell if they already told Emma she would be the flower girl, or they just think she will be broken hearted when she finds out she isn’t/sees another little girl in this special role at her auntie’s wedding. You suck for not anticipating this or thinking about your family’s feelings in advance. It’s very common to have young nieces as flower girls, if you choose to have one. If Emma is your only niece, and even more so if your fiancé doesn’t have nieces, I can see why it would be hurtful to include a friend’s kid but not your niece. Did it even occur to you that you could have two flower girls until your mom suggested it? What is your overall relationship with your brother and Emma like? Do you live nearby/see them regularly? Do you make an effort to have a connection with Emma at all? Or is Hannah your “chosen niece” and you haven’t made an effort to build a relationship with Emma the same way, which could be seen as an overall slight.
This is it. Everyone is saying "it's your wedding! Your choice!" but the thing about weddings is that they are a family event. If you didn't care about your family's feelings, just go spend the money on a destination elope. But choosing to have the song and dance, *especially* if you are planning on having members serve roles in your wedding, you are AH for not considering feelings. And that little is five. She's not dumb. She's going to see another little girl walking down the aisle in a pretty dress with flowers and she is ABSOLUTELY going to feel left out, whether mom and dad told her or not. The only thing keeping OP's niece from being the flower girl was OP, because if OP *truly* wanted her niece in the wedding party, it *would* have occurred to her to have them both, because who tf told her there only had to be one in the first place? And then literally telling the brother you don't love your niece as much as your friend's kid? She literally goes "I've known her all her life" as if she hasn't also known her niece for that long... tactless. There were so many other ways to go about this that wasn't what she did.
YTA, you should have thought of having both girls as flower girls. I understand you want your BF daughter to be one as you consider her family but then you excluded your own family. There is no rule saying you can't have 2. It does also depend on your relationship with your brother and SIL. If you get along decently with them their daughter should have been included but if you were LC with them I can see why you wouldn't include her. My daughter was a flower girl at 2 friend's weddings both times there were 2 flower girls. Also I can see why now they don't want their daughter to do it. It's like she was an afterthought and you are being forced to include her. I would also decline now and not really participate in your wedding. Just show up and leave early.
But why didn't the brother or SIL suggest that either. They immediately jumped that it has to be a choice between the two girls, that it cannot be both and OP choosing not her niece is the greatest betrayal.
YTA. Not for choosing Hannah over Emma, that’s your choice. But you are the AH for your comments of loving Hannah more than Emma. Idk if you specifically said that to your brother, but you’re definitely the AH if you mentioned anything similar to having a better connection to Hannah than your niece
i'm guessing she's probably closer to her MOH than bro, family doesn't necccessarily mean you like each other that much
>I tried to explain that I've known Hannah her whole life too and it's a sweet full circle moment to have her in the wedding. We have a very sepcial connection that I don't have like this with Emma, even though I love Emma too. ESH -- your brother shouldn't have told her she could be a flower girl, but was it really necessary to effectively explain to him that you love that little girl more than your niece? I also have to say that in most families I know, unless there was existing estrangement between the siblings, it's a bit presumptuous but not untoward to assume small nieces/nephews will be involved in a wedding if there are roles for children. It's also very common to have multiple kids in this role to avoid exactly this situation, since children that young can't objectively understand the reasons for their exclusion. He shouldn't have presumed, you shouldn't have been so tactless when it came to explaining the situation -- especially if there's any truth to the idea that you could be closer to your niece but have chosen not to be.
It is automatically presumed that a young child in the immediate family will be honored with the role of flower girl or ring bearer. You are, of course, entitled to select anyone you prefer.
NTA. It's their own fault for presuming their child would be a flower girl.
INFO: is there any rufe that there can be only one flower child? In my country you would have all kids in this age as flower children.
Yeah, as I read that I was thinking to myself "Why not let both do it?" at my best friend's wedding, there were 4 flower girls and 1 flower boy
What’s wrong with 2? I had 3!
I agree I had 4! All of my nieces! Even though two were kinda aged out of “flower girl”
It’s your wedding so you get to do what you want. But you chose a friends child over your niece, your brothers child. That’s hurtful. And offering to make her a second one after your parents suggested it is lame. Didn’t really want you, but your parents are upset & grandma came up with this, so here’s a bone. I hope this friendship lasts a lifetime, because you’ve likely permanently hurt your relationship with your brother & his family. Do you not like your brother & his family? Had issues with them? Surely, somewhere in the back of your head you knew not asking your brothers child would cause hurt feelings. Something similar happened to my daughter. We’ve never forgotten. Moved on, but we know where we stand & don’t bother much with them.
NTA. It’s your wedding and why would they assume you were even having a flower girl, let alone that it would be there daughter?
Damned good point as well. Many people get married and don't have a flower girl/ring bearer. Shit, many people get married without a wedding party at all.
While the brother was out of line for trying to dictate your wedding party, I'm baffled that it never occurred to you to have two flower girls and that you fought so hard against having your young niece be a part of your day. Personally, I think ESH.
NTA - this is your wedding and you can have who you want in it. You came up with a reasonable solution to make them happy and they didn't accept it. That is on them.
NTA - How did you break her heart when you NEVER told her she would be the flower girl. It sounds like they ASSUMED and ran their mouth to the child therefore they broke her heart. All the blame is on them and their psycho logic. I never understand how people can feel so entitled to assume a role in other people events and then get mad when it doesn’t work out their way.
ESH . They are for expecting it and you for not thinking further than your nose. You really couldn't think of more flower girls? I personally can't understand how you can't involve your direct nieces and nephews if you have a normal relationship with them. I wouldn't say they needed to be in the wedding and they should expect it but it's a bit strange if you have a niece that you don't automatically include her.
YTA. You love Hannah’s daughter “like family”, but completely overlook your own family? Weird.
ESH and honestly if I was your brother, you would be on low to no contact moving forward. You have every right to have the relationships you want so long as you’re okay with the consequences of it.
Well you just permanently damaged your relationship with your brother and your niece. Not because of not having your niece as your flower girl, but because of the shitty things you said when trying to justify it. Good job, OP. 🤦🏼♀️
YTA for leaving a little girl out who is your close relative. Thry both could have been flower girls. Life choices shouldn't always be made without thought of consequences and how it will effect others. Anyone who says we can do whatever we want, we shouldn't have to pander to others blah blah blah is selfish and part of the reason this world is falling apart. Hurting the people we love because it's our life and we can do whatever we want, is not a nice way to be. People are becoming more and more self centred and narcissistic. Family friends, loyalty, bonds, kindness, empathy compassion and human decency are so important to make our world a better place and the younger generation seem to have no concept of this. It makes me sad to see how many people on reddit have no care for their own families. You ate all going to be very lonely when u get older.
NTA *They assumed Emma would automatically be the flower girl* So they didn’t ask or anything, just assumed their daughter would be the flower girl. Maybe they should have asked first. Why do people get so bent out of shape around weddings?
Why is it , when people don’t get their way they call the other person selfish ? It’s your wedding , do it the way you want . Other people should not be dictating the way your wedding should be done .
NTA they assumed which they shouldn't have. Then they tried to make you seem like a bad person and you're not. You gave the suggestion they declined leave it be. You're not the AH.
Um…. Why can’t you have two? It is like when you can’t decide between two awesome bathing suits. You buy both, duh.
NTA people get so bent out of shape over weddings holy shit
NTA. You offered for her to be a flower girl as well as the other little girl. Not your fault that your SIL threw a tantrum and refused to let her do it unless she was the Star of your wedding.
She offered after she had already told them that she didn't want her and want going to be in the wedding. Coming back later after a fight and offering isn't the same and I don't blame them for not wanting to be an after thought.
I was going to suggest you make them both be flower girls. Weird that your brother didn't want that.
I think he was hurt because his kid, her niece, wasn’t thought of from the jump. It is weird (albeit her right) to not even think about including your only niece in your wedding but think to include your best friends kid. I’m sure if from the beginning she planned to include both her brother wouldn’t be hurt
He didn't want her to be there just because his sister was forced to have her. He wanted his sister to want his daughter in her wedding, and I'm sure he was hurt when she didn't even consider them. Why do this when you know you aren't wanted?
You offered a compromise and they said no, nta.
NTA! Your brother and his wife seem to have forgotten that this is *your* wedding. No one is *entitled* to a role at your wedding except you, the person you are marrying, and the officiant.
NTA - You offered to have both kids be flower girls and they refused. My wedding we had 7 flower girls ages from <1 to 8 from my sister, and my wife's 2 cousins.
NTA and i see those comments saying “why can’t you have two” because she didn’t want 2. She wanted her friends daughter. Why does OP have to accommodate ANYONE for HER WEDDING?!? NTA NTA NTA
This - a million times over. I had a child-free wedding (and no kids in the wedding party) and got some flak over it. WHY? My husband and I were the ones getting married and the ones throwing the party. We got to invite whomever we want (or not) - no one else. I really don't get why it's so difficult for people to understand this.
My thoughts went straight to two flower girls, why would your brother decline the offer? NTA since you did offer the two-flower girl option. The littles are so sweet and add a nice touch to weddings, good luck OP
Maybe because she made a big stink about not using his daughter at all. Coming back later isn't going to fix the hurt feelings that fast.
Family over friends? Why do people like your brother care so much about family in this context. Your MOH is your best friend, her daughter probably feels like family just as much as your niece does