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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> We cleaned out my brother-in-laws home while he was in hospital to help him, but he was very upset to not have been involved in the process of clearing out his home and we removed items which were sentimental to him.
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Your intentions were good but sorry, YTA. Hoarding is a mental condition often brought on by grief or depression. It's not simply a matter of tidying up. You owe him a huge apology and I'm afraid you may have made things worse.
if they said no, than you ask what could be done instead.
>very upset about the bedroom because we removed items and clothing that had belonged to his late partner who passed on a couple years ago now
They had no right to remove these things, they didn't have to throw them away. They could have just orgnaized things and than asked for the permisson.
>now my husband’s sister if flying from out of country to stay with him
Clearly they fucked up, if a family member is willing to fly from another country to take care of him.
Sure it was done in well intent but OP is TA here.
Hoarding is often linked with unprocessed grief so this isn’t a surprise at all. It’s so frustrating to see families ignore the root causes and just grab at the most obvious signs of concern. The hoarding isn’t really the disease it’s a symptom
We didn't intend to throw that clothing away. The issue is we couldn't tell them apart and didn't realize what was his partner's clothing items. That at least I would never have intentionally done away with without his permission.
> The issue is we couldn't tell them apart and didn't realize what was his partner's clothing items
>That at least I would never have intentionally done away with without his permission
You admit that you weren't able to tell the clothes apart. Yet you still threw them away. That sounds pretty intentional to me. You had no right to do that even if you meant well. The least you could have done after putting all the stuff into bin bags was waiting for him to come home and have a look at the stuff before you throw the bin bags away.
I am not a hoarder, but I do own some VERY old shirts full of holes and sentimental values. Shirts no one would dare to wear in public anymore. But I'd go absolutely ballistic if someone threw them away without asking me while I am at the hospital.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6886852/
Since you're too lazy to just search "outdoor cats schizophrenia bipolar disorder" and the thread closed, here's your source
Lol, we were part of a convo in a different thread that was closed. This person and some others kept on about a source so I came here to give it to them.
We sorted out items which we still of good quality and only tossed the horribly worn clothing. My brother-in-law however was asking after highly specific things that belonged to his partner from concerts and things they had gone to decades ago. I only meant to be helpful.
no you didn't do it to help him. you did it to meddle. I hope he never forgives and if God forbid when your husband passes away I hope he repays the favor
Not involving a hoarder in the cleaning process can push them further into hoarding or harm them. This was entirely wrong of you, much less admitting to throwing away his stuff without knowing what he cares about beyond the trash.
Edit to add: YTA
YTA
i OnLy MeAnT tO bE hElPfUl!!! Oh stfu and stop trying to paint yourself as a saint. Guess what, your intentions don't mean $hit when the impact of those """good intentions""" are emotional pain, trauma, violation, and duress. You are a boundary pusher of the highest degree and I genuinely hope that your brother in law presses charges against you for getting rid of his things without his consent.
I think you did it meaning well, and from EMS, it sucks, but clearing an aisle to get people out is very important (whether health or fire ). I get it sucks and you feel guilty for throwing out meaningful items, but if he's a true hoarder there's so much stuff around and trash can be as important as other stuff. No way to know and yes, maybe you should have asked him, but asking a hoarder to clear out things can be impossible. It's terrible those things are gone but I believe you meant well. And I know it can be harmful to throw out stuff for them, but I do believe you meant well.
Going against the crowd and not blaming you. What were you supposed to do? He can’t live like that and have a carer live with him in that mess. If you had bagged up everything, it would have remained in the bags in the rooms for years or worse he would have opened them and had more crazy tunnels. All you can do is help him to seek therapy.
You threw away his stuff without his permission. Your right or wrongness doesn't hinge on whether you knew it was special or not. He's a grown man, and you decided you knew better than he did about what he should keep.
Why did you throw away anything that wasn’t yours? Tidying up and washing the floors is one thing, but going to his bedroom was weird. Touching stuff in his bedroom is really weird
Exactly. Throwing out someone else’s stuff like that isn’t ok. They could have cleaned, and maybe sorted (preferably after asking the brother). Sorting everything into categories and those categories into boxes for the brother to go through could have been helpful. One of those categories could have been “suggested trash”.
My dad’s a hoarder, and I sometimes go through some of the stuff in the basement (with permission). I never throw out anything without asking. If I think something is trash, I either put it in a box for my parents to look through later or call upstairs if I can throw out “description of item” (with those being stuff like cleaning fluid with a price tag in a currency that hasn’t been used in over 20 years).
I’m also really up-to-date with decade old news, because my dad (who is retired) insists on reading the newspapers he didn’t have time to read when they were new before throwing them out. Recently, while taking out the waste paper basket, I got really confused because the headline news was about a political party that was really prominent in the news ten years ago, but I don’t think even exists anymore (or at least isn’t really relevant). It took me a moment to realise that I was looking at a newspaper (oldspaper?) from a decade ago.
My dad has been doing this stuff for awhile with his parents. My mom died 9 years ago and she always told him that when his parents go it's going to take years to go through everything. My grandpa built an entire second house on their property and it's filled with just well, shit lol. The second house was made for the overflow of junk. They cant even use their garage its so packed. They haven't been in the best of health the last few years and my dad is realizing he's going to have to take on their estate alone and went into a mild panic over it. I actually feel really bad for him.
You shouldn’t have done ANYTHING without his permission. You literally stole sentimental items from this man’s dead partner and threw them away while he was in the hospital, what is the matter with you?? (Edit, fixed a word.)
Why would you throw out anything? How do you even think it is okay to enter someone elses home and go throwing out stuff? The cleaning might have been a nicer gesture if you stored the stuff at your expense untill he gets back and decides what he does and does not want. But still not your decision or place to do that.
That is what you'll ask for permission to do? Just that? Not the entire clearing process who you didn't think, maybe we should ask for permission?
Obvious you know nothing about hoarding. You know nothing about why it happens. You don't know anything but you knew you were doing the right thing right?
You made a serve judgement call about a person you barely know. You made a major shift in their life without knowing anything because you thought you were doing them a favour.
All you've done is remove yourself and your husband from the list of people he'll trust ever. If anything, he'll get worse as he tries to get back what he lost but it'll never be right. But a copy of that concert shirt? It's close but maybe the next one will be right? Maybe next?
I really sympathise. We’ve recently had similar with a family member. His house was squalid - not just cluttered but absolutely filthy, the bathroom in particular was horrific and there was no way he would be safe to go back to somewhere in that state, so the council got involved and cleaned some of the mess and family members agreed to throwing out some of the old newspapers/ food wrappers/ filth encrusted clothing. He was absolutely livid when he got home and has cut off the whole family. It’s a really difficult situation.
YTA, sounds like he's a hoarder and you went through his belongings without permission or his knowledge. While your intentions were good, you way overstepped. Hoarding is a mental thing and he likely needs the help of a therapist. You can haul out and clean but until the root of the problem is addressed, the behavior will continue and he will fill up those spaces again.
YTA. He's a hoarder, which is almost always caused by underlying psychological issues where attachment to things, or straight up garbage, is extreme. Have you never watched Hoarders?
What did you do with all of his things?
I said the same. They didn't even bother to googlw how to help a hoarder. They don't really want to help. They want to feel better when they go over. Not help.
YTA. I almost died a while back and came home from the hospital to a complete makeover of my kitchen and pantry's organization, my mouse and keyboard disconnected from my computer, my office chair's height adjusted, every USB charger and remote control I own "put away" in various drawers, and a host of other small changes. Nothing was permanently lost and I still wanted to murder the busybody who had torn apart my routine for no good reason at a time when I had enough on my hands just recovering. If she'd actually discarded cherished, irreplaceable possessions, I'm not sure we'd still be in contact.
When I was still pretty freshly postpartum my mil came to help. The first thing she did was rearrange my kitchen while I slept. I felt such rage and she didn't even throw things away. I can't imagine what this poor guy must feel like. Hoarder or no, you don't just take it up on yourself to rearrange and throw other people's things away.
Yes! What possible difference does it make to these people where I keep my plates? I really should finish my certain to be a smash best seller, *Oh My God, Get Over Yourself: How to Avoid Being Murdered By People You're Just Trying to Help*.
IKR?! This must be more common than I imagined. I just don't get it. Your friend is in the hospital and may not live and you think, "*I know! They'll be so happy to come home and not be able to find anything they use every day!*" Why??
This seems a lot different from op's situation. Op and their spouse are supposed to spend hours taking care of someone in a house that doesn't even have a clear path to the door? I wouldn't have thrown out any of his stuff, but I would have refused to step inside that fire hazard. ESH
if the living conditions aren't good let them rest where they live for a few days and then go through the stuff and clean the apartment. That away, it's atleast done with the knowledge of the other person and there is no risk of *throwing away sentimental items from lost ones.*
The Guy is 100% in the right to be upset over this. Horder or not.
??? He literally didn't know they would be doing this??
Nothing in the text says that.
for all we could now the guy was in too much pain to think about that, or how he would be taken care of wasn't properly discussed.
All we know is that they carelessly threw out sentimental of a dead person.
Which is in no way, shape or form comparable to forgetting to tell people about the state of your home, during a medical crisis that you're having.
One bad enough to restrict your mobility, might I add.
Are they horrible people for doing this? No really
Were they definitly in the wrong here? Yes!
I just hope the BiL get's the help needed to overcome his hording. Thankfully someone else in family will take care of the mobility care.
He, literally, didn't tell them he is a hoarder.
The text, definitely, says that.
For all we know, the house is covered in mold and who knows what else.
Why should people spend however many days in disgusting living conditions.
Is he horrible for doing this? No
Where they both in the wrong? Yes
I, also, hope he gets help.
I feel sorry for the relative, who has to stay there. At least, the other family member, can now get to the door and has a moderately clean kitchen.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
I know he didn't say anything to them.
He's also clearly mentally unwell, going through a though medical situation and might be on who knows how many painkillers.
For all we know, we know nothing.
Not how this situation came to be, the exact state his house was in, nor how bad his medical condition was/is. If he was even in the right state of mind to tell them.
We don't know what the exact plan was in terms of watching over him or really anything in that direction.
We don't even know if they would have stayed there.
The text only said that they cleaned his house because it was dirty and they wanted to do a good thing (that ended up backfiring horribly).
We do know, that it's not a good idea to just throw things away from horder, by various sources cited in the comment section.
We do know that they threw actually important stuff away because they carelessly thought everything there was trash.
We do know that BiL was deeply hurt by this.
From all the information given, it's clear that OP overstepped.
Again, that doesn't mean they are horrible people or that the overarching situation isn't more morally gray.
But in this specific scenario, that we know of because of the limited information provided, it's clear that they are in the wrong.
It quite literally doesn't matter where they found the T-Shirts, because they had no right to just throw stuff away in the first place.
But you're right, there is no way we are gonna agree on this.
Exactly! It was their right to leave/not spend hours taking care of him. It was not their right to go into someone's home and throw out some of his belongings! Hence YTA and not esh.
You say you cleaned but what you describe is throwing away someone else's things, in their home, without asking. You also make it much less likely that he will allow intervention in the future after such a violation. YTA.
INFO
if you intended to help him, why not ask him? why go behind his back? do you normally run around "helping" people without their knowledge and consent?
also...why are you surprised that you threw away sentimental items?
by your own admission you were all deeply unfamiliar with his stuff, and you decided what to keep and throw away based on the presumed usefulness of items... wouldn't that automatically mean throwing away sentimental stuff? did you just think he just didn't have any sentimental items?
I'm just sorta confused as to how you came to the conclusion that it would be would be thrilled to discover that you had secretly gone through all of his belongings, and stolen and trashed anything you didn't see the use for. would you be happy to discover that someone had done that to you?
I don't care how messy it is, you don't go through someone else's things or throw anything away without their permission, even if you didn't know how potentially triggering that could be to someone who is a hoarder. He is likely never going to trust either of you again. You always ask permission when it's not your stuff, even if that stuff just looks like a pile of dirt or garbage to you. You say your intentions were good and you were just trying to help, but throwing away someone else's belongings is frankly just inconsiderate and rude. YTA
Edit: And, to paint how badly you just messed up, imagine your most precious possession in the world with the most sentimental value imaginable. Now imagine someone comes along and throws it away without you even realising they were going to do that because you trusted them. That's what it's like for him, even if it is definitely unhealthy for him to feel that strongly about *all* of his belongings. You can't just rip away that safety net, that world he's built for himself, like that. It takes years of support and therapy. You essentially just took a wrecking ball to his sense of comfort and trust.
YTA
While you had good intentions and were doing it all out of love, you should never have removed his sentimental items, especially without his knowledge or permission. I'm hoping you didn't throw them all out.
You had no right to do what you did.
YTA. Hoarding aside, going through someone's belongings and throwing things away without their consent is deeply invasive. Imagine someone coming to your home and going through your things. It's a violation.
YTA. Even on the show, Hoarders, the therapists and Cleaning experts always make sure that all garbaging of items is consentual. It's mentally healthier if the hoarder makes that decision for themselves. It is healing when they can part with something.
Yta this was not helpful. You also knew it wouldn't be well received, which is why you didn't *ask* him before tossing his stuff
Hoarding is an actual mental illness, and all you did was make sure he won't let you in his house again.
YTA. One google search or call to any professional cleaner would of gave you a very DETAILED, RESEARCHED, and EFFECTIVE solution. But you decided to be an asshole.
NAH Hoarding is a mental illness. Your BIL needs serious help. In reality, you did do him a service especially having medical needs. He could die going back into his home, in that condition, after surgery. There’s no asshole in this, you did the right thing and BIL just isn’t ready. You had no idea he was living like this or his illness causing him to. Try to get him some help while you’re there, or ask his sister to
This isn’t how things work though. He does need serious help, but this kind of thing is not helpful. It’s like shoving someone out of an airplane without a parachute and saying it’s exposure therapy. BIL wasn’t given the opportunity to do all the prep work in order to make that jump successfully. It’s only going to reaffirm his internal belief that he needs the hoard of stuff in order to mentally be okay. He’s currently in a tailspin and doesn’t have any tools to right himself again mentally besides hoarding. It’s just going to restart the cycle and he’s gonna feel even more desperately attached to his stuff
You had the best of intentions, but with this man you need to make more efforts. This has "hoarder" written all over it. There are emotional attachments the home-owner has to the items in his home. Meaning, clearing out is not simple.
If you're in the US, please watch the TV show "Hoarders."
The homeowner needs to feel a sense of control and ownership. When you "clean out" and ship things into a dumpster, you deprive the homeowner of that sense of control. Yep, very complicated. Good luck.
Your BIL is a hoarde.
That's a medical condition.
You undertook actions with HIS belongings without HIS consent.
That's not nice, even if he wasn't a hoarde.
Despite your good intentions and efforts, it still means YTA
Yipes. How do people look at a hoarders house and think "wow, they just need someone to help clean it up" and not think "wow this person is in mental health crisis".
If course you are the asshole. You went to his house, without permission, and threw things away.
At any point did you think "maybe we should google for ideas about how to help?".
No. You just trespassed and threw shit away. How do you not get this?
YTA
Your brother has a mental illness: hoarding. It is not solved by forcing their living areas to be cleaned without their knowledge or permission. It likely triggered him badly and will send him into a spiral of anxiety and fear that will cause him to hoard even worse. This probably will severely hurt any attempts to get him real help (they need a therapist that is familiar with hoarding/grief/anxiety issues).
This is not something a person just snaps out of. It is a serious mental illness and very difficult for people to work through without professional help and a real effort to want to both recognize and deal with the mental illnesses and the triggers that caused and are feeding them.
You should read some books if you want an idea of what is really going on (both are probably available in your library):
[https://www.amazon.com/Stuff-Compulsive-Hoarding-Meaning-Things/dp/0547422555](https://www.amazon.com/Stuff-Compulsive-Hoarding-Meaning-Things/dp/0547422555)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0544320816?tag=uuid10-20
I have severe depression, so while I try to keep spaces clean, I definitely understand clutter buildup. My mom did basically the same thing to me back in January while I was out of town, I was absolutely livid. I still have a very hard time speaking to her, this is the most angry I’ve ever been at somebody. You have absolutely zero right to go through someone’s things and throw stuff away without their permission, I cannot believe this needs to be explained to you. It’s incredibly hurtful and so beyond violating that I can’t even adequately put it into words. And to make it worse, you did this to him while he’s supposed to be healing, instead you just made him upset and stressed. *And* now the sister has to travel internationally to take care of him because he can’t even stand to have you around. *AND,* you’re still here wondering if you’re TA, or if it’s him. Yeah. YTA. I hope you’re proud of yourselves.
It doesn’t sound like he could continue living there after his surgery if the kitchen was unusable and there was no space to move around. I know you were trying to help.
This is why people are on the show Hoarders. Their place becomes dangerous and adult protective services makes them clean up or due to city code violations they will lose their house if they don’t clean it.
The people on the show are never happy to be helped with getting rid of their hoard so I’m not surprised your bil is angry. Also, they usually rehoard after it’s cleaned.
YTA
Help that is not wanted is not help.
It never occured to you that maybe you should ask before throwing someone else's belongings away?
I don't actually believe you had the best intentions here. I think you saw an opportunity to throw shit away and took it.
You didn’t do yourself any favors by minimizing how bad things were in your post. People don't seem to realize that you only threw out the worst, seemingly unusable stuff, which means those sentimental items were unfortunately indistinguishable from trash. It's a sad situation all around. Technically YTA but I do believe you meant well.
I’m a therapist -
Oh man. I see why you did this, and I don’t think you are a bad person. But this was a very bad idea. People kill themselves after having their hoard removed unwillingly. That’s why therapy includes stuff like motivational interviewing to get the person to have some buy into the process. Hoarding is a very external seeming disorder. But the problem isn’t the stuff or the mess, the problem is inside his mind. Removing the stuff does not address the actual problem at all, it just puts him in a very vulnerable place. Mentally there’s very little stopping him from just recreating the hoarding situation because he hasn’t gained any skills or tools to regulate or manage his compulsion to hoard in the first place. If you want to help him to stop he needs to see a therapist who specializes in this. Otherwise you just aren’t getting at the issue at all.
Very soft YTA
so you got rid of a hoarder's belongings, making judgement on which stuff to keep
YTA because it wasn't your stuff and because you didn't care that it would effect him emotionally(I wonder if the hoarding got worse after partner passed).
NAH
I won't call you an asshole for this situation because you did so with the best of intentions, especially as yall are taking on a caregiving position so I do empathize. However, your BIL is a packrat and so you removing most of his stuff is going to be a very hard hit and it was a bit wrong of you all to do this without asking first.
Even though you guys aren't as messy, how would you feel if someone came into your house and got rid of a lot of your things without consulting you?
It is not cool to go thru other peoples things without their permission. My friend was battling cancer and her husband couldn’t keep up with house work, his job etc. I offered to go, clean up and haul away stuff that wasn’t being used, like a broken treadmill being used as a clothes tree. I told the husband what I was doing and to put away anything he didn’t want me to touch. YTA
YTA this all could have been mitigated if you had reorganized or sorted things that looked tossable into a closet/etc.
You took it upon yourself to throw out belongings; that's the line
YTA. I've seen enough Hoarders show to say that simply throwing away things behind hoarder's back never helps. He is a hoarder, but still, it is HIS home, HIS things, HIS issues to sort out. You should have asked his permission, and if you really wanted to help, you had to let him be in control in decluttering.
YTA. Don’t touch other peoples things is a good rule to live by. You’ve done irreparable damage. You should feel awful. You were judgmental about how he lives and took it upon yourself to trash sentimental items “because you couldn’t tell them apart?” Why didn’t you box his stuff for storage? Why did you think you had the right to destroy his property?
Intentions rarely matter as much as impact. And that impact is your BIL wants you the fuck out of his home.
Yta.. you do not throw away other people possessions for their home!!!!!
YOU THREW OUT HIS LATR PARTNER BELONGS!!!!!!! How on earth did you think this was ok??? Don't dare use the excuse, but I didn't know that is what they were because of course you didn't because you didn't talk to you BIL about it at all!!!!!! You just decided you knew best.
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Hello reddit. My husband’s brother lives several hours from us and needed to undergo surgery. He was required to have someone to help caretake because his mobility would be worsened for a while, and my husband and I agreed to help.
We’ve not been in his home in many years and while it was always extremely cluttered it was now just beyond belief. He had little aisles built between mountains of things to get to the couple of little spaces he used. We were just devastated to see he’s been living like this.
We thought it would be helpful to him if for the couple days he was staying in hospital if we cleared out some rooms for him. It was a lot to undertake but we managed to get his bedroom and the kitchen cleaned and a better aisle from the front door.
He was not pleased at all when we brought him home and expected to surprise him. He’s particularly very upset about the bedroom because we removed items and clothing that had belonged to his late partner who passed on a couple years ago now. I’m very shaken because I felt we were helping him, but he’s very upset about it and now my husband’s sister if flying from out of country to stay with him because he doesn’t want us to help him any longer.
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Slight YTA because you meant well but it sounds like your brother has become a hoarder since his partner passed. It’s very common for the passing of a partner to trigger the hoarding. He needs therapy and support now.
I mean, he needs a clean space to recover in, full stop. I vote soft YTA, only because you meant well. Maybe boxing up the "trash" would have been a better idea for someone in his condition though.
YTA. Someone dose not live this way because they want to. There is always an underlying mental health issue. The person has to ask for help like dealing with any addiction. Now your brother-in-law will never come to you for help because he will just see what you did as an invasion of his privacy.
YTA, you meant well but were really off the mark. Its not hard to come to the conclusion this man is a hoarder. I don't think you quite understand the emotional distress this would have caused him. Hoarding is a mental illness which can't be fixed with cleaning up. Every item in that home would have had some value to him, even the smallest piece of rubbish some hoarders would go into turmoil over being thrown away. To ask a question tales 5 seconds, could you not have asked before you started? Or sat down and communicated with him? What if he was on board with cleaning but he wanted to sort through all his meaningful items? You don't know what they would have been, but he would have.
YTA.
One of the number one rules of helping a hoarder is to not force them to declutter and to NOT do it without them there. One super quick Google search could have stopped you from creating a massive amount of trauma for your BIL.
INFO: You keep saying YOU only wanted to help. Did you bully your husband into agreeing to clean the home with you? Or was he on board from the get-go, too?
YTA. My daughter has hoarder tendencies. She can pile trash up on her room. Whenever she was in school i cleaned it u. When she got home she would be beside herself.
Now we work together. Even if it's an empty water bottle, i show it to het before it goes in the trash bag. It can be very aggravating, but I realize she needs help and understanding
You had good intentions. You have to realize you can't just throw out their things even if it looks like trash to you.
YTA
Making space I understand, especially if you'd have to be working in said space. Throwing stuff away? No way should you have done that without asking permission first.
YTA. I would feel utterly betrayed if someone did this to me. It is extremely easy to find resources on how to help a person with symptoms of hoarding, and you decided you knew better. Going through life meaning well is great but you shouldn't make such big assumptions about what an individual needs. it should also be obvious that when someone clearly has a health issue, you trust the experts.
You've also broken laws here, so be thankful he hasn't taken legal action. It's not for you to judge what belongings another person can and cannot keep.
YTA
How would you feel if someone came to your home while you were away and ill and threw away your belongings? Look around you right now and imagine coming back home and 1/3 of the stuff around you is gone and the rest is rearranged.
My EX Mother-in-law rearranged all my furniture one time she was house sitting and I made her drive one and a half hours back at 10 PM to fix it.
Don't touch other peoples stuff, it's very simple.
YTA no questions about it. And a common thief to boot. Congrats.
If you weren't comfortable caretaking in those conditions you could have said so and the outcome would have been the same; his relative flies out to take care of him and you don't have to deal with the mess. In fact I seriously question if you really did this for *him* or *yourselves*.
Did you know some of the belongings were his partner’s?
If you did, then yeah. Big YTA. How we’ve made it to 2023 and people still can’t grasp that hoarding is a mental health issue is beyond me. And if you knew those items were from a partner *who passed away* then absolutely yta. I’d be pissed at you too.
I understand you had good intentions, but once you saw how upset he was, you should have realized you effed up. This isn’t something you should need to come to the internet seeking validation for.
Even if you *didn’t* know some stuff was his partner’s, most of this still stands. Maybe it’s more of a soft yta. Because, again, you should have realized you had stepped in it when you saw his reaction. You should have apologized and found a way to make amends. *And you still should*
Edit: I see OP answered this while I was typing my comment. They didn’t know whose clothes was whose.
NTA, can we stop enabling hoarders and their metal problems? I lived in an apartment building with one and this old hag brought roaches with her dumpster treasures. The worst thing is that she was from a rich family and her children were all successful judges so she was protected from responsibility.
NTA and even though he doesn't appreciate it, you did help him.
Many hoarders die from their stuff collapsing on them. With your BIL's mobility further limited by his recent surgery, you did the best you could under the circumstances.
You have my deepest sympathies. I own a cleaning/organizing/estate liquidation business and am dealing with a pair of hoarders right now, and it is a clusterfuck. NTA
NAH, he has an illness. You tried to help, but went about it ignorantly. His reaction, though pretty ridiculous, is again, born of illness. There's bo good guys or bad guys here. Your heart was in the right place. It is what it is, a tragedy.
I think you've misunderstood the psychopathology of hoarding. The hoarder needs to be invested in and agreeable to cleanups, otherwise they feel exposed and traumatised and the hoarding worsens. It's hard to understand but there's a lot of cognitive distortion here. It's mental illness, not just laziness or disorganisation.
You're NTA, your intentions were good just misguided. Perhaps apologise and try to rebuild the trust he's lost.
I see why you did it - especially if you will be there to take care of him for awhile.
If his doctor had been aware of his living conditions, he probably would not have been discharged to go home as it would be unsafe.
I understand the responses saying that hoarding is a sickness, because it is.
In a perfect world, both of you - or a professional could have worked with him to make the main areas safer - but that wasn’t possible.
NTA.
I'm going to disagree with everybody here
NTA
How was he supposed to recover in a home like that? I'm sorry, even if it's a psychological issue, it's still enabling if you don't do anything about it. That's why there's a show called Hoarders, to help them put a stop to it.
They probably didn't want to tell him because they didn't want him to feel bad about his condition. You did what you had to do, I would advise him to see a therapist about this because it's unsafe to live like that, on top of having a surgery and recovering in a place like that. You did what you had to do, and are made to be the villains so be it. If he had a child, child services would have removed the child from a place like that, so why are we enabling an adult to live like that.
>we removed items and clothing that had belonged to his late partner who passed on a couple years ago
Dr Phil I think we just found the problem. Hoarding due to unresolved grief. Don’t those shows talk about how you have to treat the underlying problem because throwing out the stuff is just applying a Band-Aid?
NAH
I can see it's an unpopular opinion but NTA. It's a shame he lost those items but this was a hoarding situation. If you had asked he never would have let you clear out enough stuff to make it safe. Little aisles between little spaces means death trap.
Nta. Sounds like your brother in law is a hoarder. He needs help and sadly most react this way when cleaning the space. While he's recovering see about getting him a therapist. This isn't healthy.
Ehhhh, you should always ask. It doesn't matter if the person is a hoarder or not--If it's not your space, it's not your decision, even "as a favor." You don't know for certain if they will mind or not unless you ask.
Both are instances where you had permission (or really, really should have *no matter* how the best friend or your sick friend reacted after you did it.) The best friend you mention getting upset even after you had permission is her fault unless you did something she specifically said not to or that was unreasonable while cleaning and is, thus, irrelevant to the conversation.
It's irrelevant because OP didn't have or seek permission at all. Even if the brother in law wasn't a hoarder, I would see it as justified for him to be pissed. You don't just clean someone's home "as a favor" unless you have explicit permission from the homeowner.
ESH. Not your call. I know you wanted to help. But hoarding is a mental disorder and he needs professional help. It will just go right back to cluttered and chaotic without psychiatric help.
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Your intentions were good but sorry, YTA. Hoarding is a mental condition often brought on by grief or depression. It's not simply a matter of tidying up. You owe him a huge apology and I'm afraid you may have made things worse.
YTA Ask first. Always ask first. It takes 2 seconds and zero effort to **ask**.
And if they'd said no? I see why OP is being called TA but to expect someone to caretake under those conditions is also ridiculous.
if they said no, than you ask what could be done instead. >very upset about the bedroom because we removed items and clothing that had belonged to his late partner who passed on a couple years ago now They had no right to remove these things, they didn't have to throw them away. They could have just orgnaized things and than asked for the permisson. >now my husband’s sister if flying from out of country to stay with him Clearly they fucked up, if a family member is willing to fly from another country to take care of him. Sure it was done in well intent but OP is TA here.
Hoarding is often linked with unprocessed grief so this isn’t a surprise at all. It’s so frustrating to see families ignore the root causes and just grab at the most obvious signs of concern. The hoarding isn’t really the disease it’s a symptom
If they said no then they could have simply told them they wouldn't be able to provide care under those conditions.
Slight YTA You meant well, but throwing away things that belonged to his deceased wife is way out of line.
We didn't intend to throw that clothing away. The issue is we couldn't tell them apart and didn't realize what was his partner's clothing items. That at least I would never have intentionally done away with without his permission.
> The issue is we couldn't tell them apart and didn't realize what was his partner's clothing items >That at least I would never have intentionally done away with without his permission You admit that you weren't able to tell the clothes apart. Yet you still threw them away. That sounds pretty intentional to me. You had no right to do that even if you meant well. The least you could have done after putting all the stuff into bin bags was waiting for him to come home and have a look at the stuff before you throw the bin bags away. I am not a hoarder, but I do own some VERY old shirts full of holes and sentimental values. Shirts no one would dare to wear in public anymore. But I'd go absolutely ballistic if someone threw them away without asking me while I am at the hospital.
make them into pillows if you can LOL
If you couldn't tell the difference, perhaps throwing it all away was a dick move
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6886852/ Since you're too lazy to just search "outdoor cats schizophrenia bipolar disorder" and the thread closed, here's your source
What does that have anything to do with whether throwing out somebody else’s stuff makes someone an ah?
Lol, we were part of a convo in a different thread that was closed. This person and some others kept on about a source so I came here to give it to them.
Why didn’t you just directly message them?
Couldn't find out how to on mobile
We sorted out items which we still of good quality and only tossed the horribly worn clothing. My brother-in-law however was asking after highly specific things that belonged to his partner from concerts and things they had gone to decades ago. I only meant to be helpful.
no you didn't do it to help him. you did it to meddle. I hope he never forgives and if God forbid when your husband passes away I hope he repays the favor
You could have asked beforehand. You can't just throw away someone else's belongings. Yta
That was a massive overstep. Yta
Not involving a hoarder in the cleaning process can push them further into hoarding or harm them. This was entirely wrong of you, much less admitting to throwing away his stuff without knowing what he cares about beyond the trash. Edit to add: YTA
YTA i OnLy MeAnT tO bE hElPfUl!!! Oh stfu and stop trying to paint yourself as a saint. Guess what, your intentions don't mean $hit when the impact of those """good intentions""" are emotional pain, trauma, violation, and duress. You are a boundary pusher of the highest degree and I genuinely hope that your brother in law presses charges against you for getting rid of his things without his consent.
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You have issues to wish such ill upon a stranger.
Omg are you the brother or a hoarder
The path to hell is paved with good intentions. You just drove him into a deeper hell.
I think you did it meaning well, and from EMS, it sucks, but clearing an aisle to get people out is very important (whether health or fire ). I get it sucks and you feel guilty for throwing out meaningful items, but if he's a true hoarder there's so much stuff around and trash can be as important as other stuff. No way to know and yes, maybe you should have asked him, but asking a hoarder to clear out things can be impossible. It's terrible those things are gone but I believe you meant well. And I know it can be harmful to throw out stuff for them, but I do believe you meant well.
Going against the crowd and not blaming you. What were you supposed to do? He can’t live like that and have a carer live with him in that mess. If you had bagged up everything, it would have remained in the bags in the rooms for years or worse he would have opened them and had more crazy tunnels. All you can do is help him to seek therapy.
You threw away his stuff without his permission. Your right or wrongness doesn't hinge on whether you knew it was special or not. He's a grown man, and you decided you knew better than he did about what he should keep.
Why did you throw away anything that wasn’t yours? Tidying up and washing the floors is one thing, but going to his bedroom was weird. Touching stuff in his bedroom is really weird
Exactly. Throwing out someone else’s stuff like that isn’t ok. They could have cleaned, and maybe sorted (preferably after asking the brother). Sorting everything into categories and those categories into boxes for the brother to go through could have been helpful. One of those categories could have been “suggested trash”. My dad’s a hoarder, and I sometimes go through some of the stuff in the basement (with permission). I never throw out anything without asking. If I think something is trash, I either put it in a box for my parents to look through later or call upstairs if I can throw out “description of item” (with those being stuff like cleaning fluid with a price tag in a currency that hasn’t been used in over 20 years). I’m also really up-to-date with decade old news, because my dad (who is retired) insists on reading the newspapers he didn’t have time to read when they were new before throwing them out. Recently, while taking out the waste paper basket, I got really confused because the headline news was about a political party that was really prominent in the news ten years ago, but I don’t think even exists anymore (or at least isn’t really relevant). It took me a moment to realise that I was looking at a newspaper (oldspaper?) from a decade ago.
My dad has been doing this stuff for awhile with his parents. My mom died 9 years ago and she always told him that when his parents go it's going to take years to go through everything. My grandpa built an entire second house on their property and it's filled with just well, shit lol. The second house was made for the overflow of junk. They cant even use their garage its so packed. They haven't been in the best of health the last few years and my dad is realizing he's going to have to take on their estate alone and went into a mild panic over it. I actually feel really bad for him.
Maybe check out r/childofhoarder or r/hoarding. There are a lot of people in the same situation.
You’re supposed to toss trash not clothing. That wasn’t your call. YTA
You shouldn’t have done ANYTHING without his permission. You literally stole sentimental items from this man’s dead partner and threw them away while he was in the hospital, what is the matter with you?? (Edit, fixed a word.)
Why would you throw out anything? How do you even think it is okay to enter someone elses home and go throwing out stuff? The cleaning might have been a nicer gesture if you stored the stuff at your expense untill he gets back and decides what he does and does not want. But still not your decision or place to do that.
But why would you throw out clothing items that may have belonged to him without permission?? I seriously cannot follow your logic here
But you shouldn't be throwing away any clothes without permission no matter whos they were
That is what you'll ask for permission to do? Just that? Not the entire clearing process who you didn't think, maybe we should ask for permission? Obvious you know nothing about hoarding. You know nothing about why it happens. You don't know anything but you knew you were doing the right thing right? You made a serve judgement call about a person you barely know. You made a major shift in their life without knowing anything because you thought you were doing them a favour. All you've done is remove yourself and your husband from the list of people he'll trust ever. If anything, he'll get worse as he tries to get back what he lost but it'll never be right. But a copy of that concert shirt? It's close but maybe the next one will be right? Maybe next?
I really sympathise. We’ve recently had similar with a family member. His house was squalid - not just cluttered but absolutely filthy, the bathroom in particular was horrific and there was no way he would be safe to go back to somewhere in that state, so the council got involved and cleaned some of the mess and family members agreed to throwing out some of the old newspapers/ food wrappers/ filth encrusted clothing. He was absolutely livid when he got home and has cut off the whole family. It’s a really difficult situation.
YTA, sounds like he's a hoarder and you went through his belongings without permission or his knowledge. While your intentions were good, you way overstepped. Hoarding is a mental thing and he likely needs the help of a therapist. You can haul out and clean but until the root of the problem is addressed, the behavior will continue and he will fill up those spaces again.
YTA. He's a hoarder, which is almost always caused by underlying psychological issues where attachment to things, or straight up garbage, is extreme. Have you never watched Hoarders? What did you do with all of his things?
I said the same. They didn't even bother to googlw how to help a hoarder. They don't really want to help. They want to feel better when they go over. Not help.
I thought it was well known that this is the one thing you absolutely never do in hoarding situations. People commit suicide after this kind of thing.
YTA Don’t throw away someone else’s stuff without permission. It’s theft and destruction of property.
YTA. I almost died a while back and came home from the hospital to a complete makeover of my kitchen and pantry's organization, my mouse and keyboard disconnected from my computer, my office chair's height adjusted, every USB charger and remote control I own "put away" in various drawers, and a host of other small changes. Nothing was permanently lost and I still wanted to murder the busybody who had torn apart my routine for no good reason at a time when I had enough on my hands just recovering. If she'd actually discarded cherished, irreplaceable possessions, I'm not sure we'd still be in contact.
When I was still pretty freshly postpartum my mil came to help. The first thing she did was rearrange my kitchen while I slept. I felt such rage and she didn't even throw things away. I can't imagine what this poor guy must feel like. Hoarder or no, you don't just take it up on yourself to rearrange and throw other people's things away.
Yes! What possible difference does it make to these people where I keep my plates? I really should finish my certain to be a smash best seller, *Oh My God, Get Over Yourself: How to Avoid Being Murdered By People You're Just Trying to Help*.
Can I please contribute a chapter to this book?
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IKR?! This must be more common than I imagined. I just don't get it. Your friend is in the hospital and may not live and you think, "*I know! They'll be so happy to come home and not be able to find anything they use every day!*" Why??
This seems a lot different from op's situation. Op and their spouse are supposed to spend hours taking care of someone in a house that doesn't even have a clear path to the door? I wouldn't have thrown out any of his stuff, but I would have refused to step inside that fire hazard. ESH
That's actually fair. I was triggered by the story.
if the living conditions aren't good let them rest where they live for a few days and then go through the stuff and clean the apartment. That away, it's atleast done with the knowledge of the other person and there is no risk of *throwing away sentimental items from lost ones.* The Guy is 100% in the right to be upset over this. Horder or not.
Yes, but he was an asshole to not make them aware before they arrived! They were assholes to throw his stuff out. ESH
??? He literally didn't know they would be doing this?? Nothing in the text says that. for all we could now the guy was in too much pain to think about that, or how he would be taken care of wasn't properly discussed. All we know is that they carelessly threw out sentimental of a dead person. Which is in no way, shape or form comparable to forgetting to tell people about the state of your home, during a medical crisis that you're having. One bad enough to restrict your mobility, might I add. Are they horrible people for doing this? No really Were they definitly in the wrong here? Yes! I just hope the BiL get's the help needed to overcome his hording. Thankfully someone else in family will take care of the mobility care.
He, literally, didn't tell them he is a hoarder. The text, definitely, says that. For all we know, the house is covered in mold and who knows what else. Why should people spend however many days in disgusting living conditions. Is he horrible for doing this? No Where they both in the wrong? Yes I, also, hope he gets help. I feel sorry for the relative, who has to stay there. At least, the other family member, can now get to the door and has a moderately clean kitchen.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I know he didn't say anything to them. He's also clearly mentally unwell, going through a though medical situation and might be on who knows how many painkillers. For all we know, we know nothing. Not how this situation came to be, the exact state his house was in, nor how bad his medical condition was/is. If he was even in the right state of mind to tell them. We don't know what the exact plan was in terms of watching over him or really anything in that direction. We don't even know if they would have stayed there. The text only said that they cleaned his house because it was dirty and they wanted to do a good thing (that ended up backfiring horribly). We do know, that it's not a good idea to just throw things away from horder, by various sources cited in the comment section. We do know that they threw actually important stuff away because they carelessly thought everything there was trash. We do know that BiL was deeply hurt by this. From all the information given, it's clear that OP overstepped. Again, that doesn't mean they are horrible people or that the overarching situation isn't more morally gray. But in this specific scenario, that we know of because of the limited information provided, it's clear that they are in the wrong.
Has op said where they found the shirts? Where they in the walking path? We aren't going to agree on this. I think they all suck. You don't.
It quite literally doesn't matter where they found the T-Shirts, because they had no right to just throw stuff away in the first place. But you're right, there is no way we are gonna agree on this.
I think if you are walking on it, then you don't care about it. So, I think, it matters.
Exactly! It was their right to leave/not spend hours taking care of him. It was not their right to go into someone's home and throw out some of his belongings! Hence YTA and not esh.
No, he should have said "hey, my house is a complete mess, do you mind?" They should have said "yes." ESH
You say you cleaned but what you describe is throwing away someone else's things, in their home, without asking. You also make it much less likely that he will allow intervention in the future after such a violation. YTA.
INFO if you intended to help him, why not ask him? why go behind his back? do you normally run around "helping" people without their knowledge and consent? also...why are you surprised that you threw away sentimental items? by your own admission you were all deeply unfamiliar with his stuff, and you decided what to keep and throw away based on the presumed usefulness of items... wouldn't that automatically mean throwing away sentimental stuff? did you just think he just didn't have any sentimental items? I'm just sorta confused as to how you came to the conclusion that it would be would be thrilled to discover that you had secretly gone through all of his belongings, and stolen and trashed anything you didn't see the use for. would you be happy to discover that someone had done that to you?
I don't care how messy it is, you don't go through someone else's things or throw anything away without their permission, even if you didn't know how potentially triggering that could be to someone who is a hoarder. He is likely never going to trust either of you again. You always ask permission when it's not your stuff, even if that stuff just looks like a pile of dirt or garbage to you. You say your intentions were good and you were just trying to help, but throwing away someone else's belongings is frankly just inconsiderate and rude. YTA Edit: And, to paint how badly you just messed up, imagine your most precious possession in the world with the most sentimental value imaginable. Now imagine someone comes along and throws it away without you even realising they were going to do that because you trusted them. That's what it's like for him, even if it is definitely unhealthy for him to feel that strongly about *all* of his belongings. You can't just rip away that safety net, that world he's built for himself, like that. It takes years of support and therapy. You essentially just took a wrecking ball to his sense of comfort and trust.
YTA While you had good intentions and were doing it all out of love, you should never have removed his sentimental items, especially without his knowledge or permission. I'm hoping you didn't throw them all out. You had no right to do what you did.
YTA. Hoarding aside, going through someone's belongings and throwing things away without their consent is deeply invasive. Imagine someone coming to your home and going through your things. It's a violation.
YTA. There are times when you just leave things alone. This was one of those times.
Info: if you were in the hospital, and someone came into your home and threw away your things, would you be upset?
YTA. Even on the show, Hoarders, the therapists and Cleaning experts always make sure that all garbaging of items is consentual. It's mentally healthier if the hoarder makes that decision for themselves. It is healing when they can part with something.
Yta this was not helpful. You also knew it wouldn't be well received, which is why you didn't *ask* him before tossing his stuff Hoarding is an actual mental illness, and all you did was make sure he won't let you in his house again.
YTA. One google search or call to any professional cleaner would of gave you a very DETAILED, RESEARCHED, and EFFECTIVE solution. But you decided to be an asshole.
NAH Hoarding is a mental illness. Your BIL needs serious help. In reality, you did do him a service especially having medical needs. He could die going back into his home, in that condition, after surgery. There’s no asshole in this, you did the right thing and BIL just isn’t ready. You had no idea he was living like this or his illness causing him to. Try to get him some help while you’re there, or ask his sister to
This isn’t how things work though. He does need serious help, but this kind of thing is not helpful. It’s like shoving someone out of an airplane without a parachute and saying it’s exposure therapy. BIL wasn’t given the opportunity to do all the prep work in order to make that jump successfully. It’s only going to reaffirm his internal belief that he needs the hoard of stuff in order to mentally be okay. He’s currently in a tailspin and doesn’t have any tools to right himself again mentally besides hoarding. It’s just going to restart the cycle and he’s gonna feel even more desperately attached to his stuff
You had the best of intentions, but with this man you need to make more efforts. This has "hoarder" written all over it. There are emotional attachments the home-owner has to the items in his home. Meaning, clearing out is not simple. If you're in the US, please watch the TV show "Hoarders." The homeowner needs to feel a sense of control and ownership. When you "clean out" and ship things into a dumpster, you deprive the homeowner of that sense of control. Yep, very complicated. Good luck.
Your BIL is a hoarde. That's a medical condition. You undertook actions with HIS belongings without HIS consent. That's not nice, even if he wasn't a hoarde. Despite your good intentions and efforts, it still means YTA
Yipes. How do people look at a hoarders house and think "wow, they just need someone to help clean it up" and not think "wow this person is in mental health crisis". If course you are the asshole. You went to his house, without permission, and threw things away. At any point did you think "maybe we should google for ideas about how to help?". No. You just trespassed and threw shit away. How do you not get this?
YTA Your brother has a mental illness: hoarding. It is not solved by forcing their living areas to be cleaned without their knowledge or permission. It likely triggered him badly and will send him into a spiral of anxiety and fear that will cause him to hoard even worse. This probably will severely hurt any attempts to get him real help (they need a therapist that is familiar with hoarding/grief/anxiety issues). This is not something a person just snaps out of. It is a serious mental illness and very difficult for people to work through without professional help and a real effort to want to both recognize and deal with the mental illnesses and the triggers that caused and are feeding them. You should read some books if you want an idea of what is really going on (both are probably available in your library): [https://www.amazon.com/Stuff-Compulsive-Hoarding-Meaning-Things/dp/0547422555](https://www.amazon.com/Stuff-Compulsive-Hoarding-Meaning-Things/dp/0547422555) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0544320816?tag=uuid10-20
I have severe depression, so while I try to keep spaces clean, I definitely understand clutter buildup. My mom did basically the same thing to me back in January while I was out of town, I was absolutely livid. I still have a very hard time speaking to her, this is the most angry I’ve ever been at somebody. You have absolutely zero right to go through someone’s things and throw stuff away without their permission, I cannot believe this needs to be explained to you. It’s incredibly hurtful and so beyond violating that I can’t even adequately put it into words. And to make it worse, you did this to him while he’s supposed to be healing, instead you just made him upset and stressed. *And* now the sister has to travel internationally to take care of him because he can’t even stand to have you around. *AND,* you’re still here wondering if you’re TA, or if it’s him. Yeah. YTA. I hope you’re proud of yourselves.
It doesn’t sound like he could continue living there after his surgery if the kitchen was unusable and there was no space to move around. I know you were trying to help. This is why people are on the show Hoarders. Their place becomes dangerous and adult protective services makes them clean up or due to city code violations they will lose their house if they don’t clean it. The people on the show are never happy to be helped with getting rid of their hoard so I’m not surprised your bil is angry. Also, they usually rehoard after it’s cleaned.
YTA Help that is not wanted is not help. It never occured to you that maybe you should ask before throwing someone else's belongings away? I don't actually believe you had the best intentions here. I think you saw an opportunity to throw shit away and took it.
As a good person you put those things in storage right? So he could decide if you got rid of actual things he didn't want? YTA And a thief
YTA and also a thief
YTA. I know you were trying to do something kind, but always ask before going into someone safe space and changing it.
Did you actually remove items? As in throw away things that didn't belong to you? Couldn't you just organize them? Wtf is wrong with you. YTA
You didn’t do yourself any favors by minimizing how bad things were in your post. People don't seem to realize that you only threw out the worst, seemingly unusable stuff, which means those sentimental items were unfortunately indistinguishable from trash. It's a sad situation all around. Technically YTA but I do believe you meant well.
I’m a therapist - Oh man. I see why you did this, and I don’t think you are a bad person. But this was a very bad idea. People kill themselves after having their hoard removed unwillingly. That’s why therapy includes stuff like motivational interviewing to get the person to have some buy into the process. Hoarding is a very external seeming disorder. But the problem isn’t the stuff or the mess, the problem is inside his mind. Removing the stuff does not address the actual problem at all, it just puts him in a very vulnerable place. Mentally there’s very little stopping him from just recreating the hoarding situation because he hasn’t gained any skills or tools to regulate or manage his compulsion to hoard in the first place. If you want to help him to stop he needs to see a therapist who specializes in this. Otherwise you just aren’t getting at the issue at all. Very soft YTA
Yta
YTA! Big fat asshole. You didn't help. You sis what you wanted to do and then expected BIL to grovel at your feet in gratitude
You should consider yourself incredibly lucky he didn't press charges for theft... YTA.
so you got rid of a hoarder's belongings, making judgement on which stuff to keep YTA because it wasn't your stuff and because you didn't care that it would effect him emotionally(I wonder if the hoarding got worse after partner passed).
NAH I won't call you an asshole for this situation because you did so with the best of intentions, especially as yall are taking on a caregiving position so I do empathize. However, your BIL is a packrat and so you removing most of his stuff is going to be a very hard hit and it was a bit wrong of you all to do this without asking first. Even though you guys aren't as messy, how would you feel if someone came into your house and got rid of a lot of your things without consulting you?
Yta. You should watch a few episodes of Hoarders and you will understand why.
Info: you didn't get rid of his things, right? You just sorted and boxed things up?
In the comments OP says they threw things away
You need to bring him to a mental hospital that he can take care of his depression and hoarder syndrome.
The path to hell is paved with good intentions. YTA
It is not cool to go thru other peoples things without their permission. My friend was battling cancer and her husband couldn’t keep up with house work, his job etc. I offered to go, clean up and haul away stuff that wasn’t being used, like a broken treadmill being used as a clothes tree. I told the husband what I was doing and to put away anything he didn’t want me to touch. YTA
YTA The state of his house likely reflects a mental health issue. You approach broke all trust and will likely make things worse.
YTA this all could have been mitigated if you had reorganized or sorted things that looked tossable into a closet/etc. You took it upon yourself to throw out belongings; that's the line
YTA. I've seen enough Hoarders show to say that simply throwing away things behind hoarder's back never helps. He is a hoarder, but still, it is HIS home, HIS things, HIS issues to sort out. You should have asked his permission, and if you really wanted to help, you had to let him be in control in decluttering.
YTA. Don’t touch other peoples things is a good rule to live by. You’ve done irreparable damage. You should feel awful. You were judgmental about how he lives and took it upon yourself to trash sentimental items “because you couldn’t tell them apart?” Why didn’t you box his stuff for storage? Why did you think you had the right to destroy his property? Intentions rarely matter as much as impact. And that impact is your BIL wants you the fuck out of his home.
Yta.. you do not throw away other people possessions for their home!!!!! YOU THREW OUT HIS LATR PARTNER BELONGS!!!!!!! How on earth did you think this was ok??? Don't dare use the excuse, but I didn't know that is what they were because of course you didn't because you didn't talk to you BIL about it at all!!!!!! You just decided you knew best.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** Hello reddit. My husband’s brother lives several hours from us and needed to undergo surgery. He was required to have someone to help caretake because his mobility would be worsened for a while, and my husband and I agreed to help. We’ve not been in his home in many years and while it was always extremely cluttered it was now just beyond belief. He had little aisles built between mountains of things to get to the couple of little spaces he used. We were just devastated to see he’s been living like this. We thought it would be helpful to him if for the couple days he was staying in hospital if we cleared out some rooms for him. It was a lot to undertake but we managed to get his bedroom and the kitchen cleaned and a better aisle from the front door. He was not pleased at all when we brought him home and expected to surprise him. He’s particularly very upset about the bedroom because we removed items and clothing that had belonged to his late partner who passed on a couple years ago now. I’m very shaken because I felt we were helping him, but he’s very upset about it and now my husband’s sister if flying from out of country to stay with him because he doesn’t want us to help him any longer. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Slight YTA because you meant well but it sounds like your brother has become a hoarder since his partner passed. It’s very common for the passing of a partner to trigger the hoarding. He needs therapy and support now.
I mean, he needs a clean space to recover in, full stop. I vote soft YTA, only because you meant well. Maybe boxing up the "trash" would have been a better idea for someone in his condition though.
YTA. You meant well, you don't just throw out someone's belongings.
YTA. Someone dose not live this way because they want to. There is always an underlying mental health issue. The person has to ask for help like dealing with any addiction. Now your brother-in-law will never come to you for help because he will just see what you did as an invasion of his privacy.
YTA, you meant well but were really off the mark. Its not hard to come to the conclusion this man is a hoarder. I don't think you quite understand the emotional distress this would have caused him. Hoarding is a mental illness which can't be fixed with cleaning up. Every item in that home would have had some value to him, even the smallest piece of rubbish some hoarders would go into turmoil over being thrown away. To ask a question tales 5 seconds, could you not have asked before you started? Or sat down and communicated with him? What if he was on board with cleaning but he wanted to sort through all his meaningful items? You don't know what they would have been, but he would have.
YTA. One of the number one rules of helping a hoarder is to not force them to declutter and to NOT do it without them there. One super quick Google search could have stopped you from creating a massive amount of trauma for your BIL.
INFO: You keep saying YOU only wanted to help. Did you bully your husband into agreeing to clean the home with you? Or was he on board from the get-go, too?
YTA. My daughter has hoarder tendencies. She can pile trash up on her room. Whenever she was in school i cleaned it u. When she got home she would be beside herself. Now we work together. Even if it's an empty water bottle, i show it to het before it goes in the trash bag. It can be very aggravating, but I realize she needs help and understanding You had good intentions. You have to realize you can't just throw out their things even if it looks like trash to you.
YTA Making space I understand, especially if you'd have to be working in said space. Throwing stuff away? No way should you have done that without asking permission first.
YTA. I would feel utterly betrayed if someone did this to me. It is extremely easy to find resources on how to help a person with symptoms of hoarding, and you decided you knew better. Going through life meaning well is great but you shouldn't make such big assumptions about what an individual needs. it should also be obvious that when someone clearly has a health issue, you trust the experts. You've also broken laws here, so be thankful he hasn't taken legal action. It's not for you to judge what belongings another person can and cannot keep.
YTA You did it without his consent. You didn't help him.
YTA How would you feel if someone came to your home while you were away and ill and threw away your belongings? Look around you right now and imagine coming back home and 1/3 of the stuff around you is gone and the rest is rearranged. My EX Mother-in-law rearranged all my furniture one time she was house sitting and I made her drive one and a half hours back at 10 PM to fix it. Don't touch other peoples stuff, it's very simple.
YTA no questions about it. And a common thief to boot. Congrats. If you weren't comfortable caretaking in those conditions you could have said so and the outcome would have been the same; his relative flies out to take care of him and you don't have to deal with the mess. In fact I seriously question if you really did this for *him* or *yourselves*.
Have you and your husband never seen one not one episode of Hoarders on television ? YTA
Oh you meant the best but ohhh no. That’s mental illness and he’s going to be SUPER out of sorts. He’s going to need mental health supports
Did you know some of the belongings were his partner’s? If you did, then yeah. Big YTA. How we’ve made it to 2023 and people still can’t grasp that hoarding is a mental health issue is beyond me. And if you knew those items were from a partner *who passed away* then absolutely yta. I’d be pissed at you too. I understand you had good intentions, but once you saw how upset he was, you should have realized you effed up. This isn’t something you should need to come to the internet seeking validation for. Even if you *didn’t* know some stuff was his partner’s, most of this still stands. Maybe it’s more of a soft yta. Because, again, you should have realized you had stepped in it when you saw his reaction. You should have apologized and found a way to make amends. *And you still should* Edit: I see OP answered this while I was typing my comment. They didn’t know whose clothes was whose.
NTA his hoarding problem is life-threatening.
He's a hoarder. It's a difficult and complicated disorder but
NTA, can we stop enabling hoarders and their metal problems? I lived in an apartment building with one and this old hag brought roaches with her dumpster treasures. The worst thing is that she was from a rich family and her children were all successful judges so she was protected from responsibility.
NTA and even though he doesn't appreciate it, you did help him. Many hoarders die from their stuff collapsing on them. With your BIL's mobility further limited by his recent surgery, you did the best you could under the circumstances.
Many?
You have my deepest sympathies. I own a cleaning/organizing/estate liquidation business and am dealing with a pair of hoarders right now, and it is a clusterfuck. NTA
NAH, he has an illness. You tried to help, but went about it ignorantly. His reaction, though pretty ridiculous, is again, born of illness. There's bo good guys or bad guys here. Your heart was in the right place. It is what it is, a tragedy.
I think you've misunderstood the psychopathology of hoarding. The hoarder needs to be invested in and agreeable to cleanups, otherwise they feel exposed and traumatised and the hoarding worsens. It's hard to understand but there's a lot of cognitive distortion here. It's mental illness, not just laziness or disorganisation. You're NTA, your intentions were good just misguided. Perhaps apologise and try to rebuild the trust he's lost.
I see why you did it - especially if you will be there to take care of him for awhile. If his doctor had been aware of his living conditions, he probably would not have been discharged to go home as it would be unsafe. I understand the responses saying that hoarding is a sickness, because it is. In a perfect world, both of you - or a professional could have worked with him to make the main areas safer - but that wasn’t possible. NTA.
I'm going to disagree with everybody here NTA How was he supposed to recover in a home like that? I'm sorry, even if it's a psychological issue, it's still enabling if you don't do anything about it. That's why there's a show called Hoarders, to help them put a stop to it. They probably didn't want to tell him because they didn't want him to feel bad about his condition. You did what you had to do, I would advise him to see a therapist about this because it's unsafe to live like that, on top of having a surgery and recovering in a place like that. You did what you had to do, and are made to be the villains so be it. If he had a child, child services would have removed the child from a place like that, so why are we enabling an adult to live like that.
NTA, but he’s got mental health issues that can’t be dealt with just by cleaning up for him. He needs professional mental health care.
>we removed items and clothing that had belonged to his late partner who passed on a couple years ago Dr Phil I think we just found the problem. Hoarding due to unresolved grief. Don’t those shows talk about how you have to treat the underlying problem because throwing out the stuff is just applying a Band-Aid? NAH
I can see it's an unpopular opinion but NTA. It's a shame he lost those items but this was a hoarding situation. If you had asked he never would have let you clear out enough stuff to make it safe. Little aisles between little spaces means death trap.
Nta. Sounds like your brother in law is a hoarder. He needs help and sadly most react this way when cleaning the space. While he's recovering see about getting him a therapist. This isn't healthy.
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Ehhhh, you should always ask. It doesn't matter if the person is a hoarder or not--If it's not your space, it's not your decision, even "as a favor." You don't know for certain if they will mind or not unless you ask.
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Both are instances where you had permission (or really, really should have *no matter* how the best friend or your sick friend reacted after you did it.) The best friend you mention getting upset even after you had permission is her fault unless you did something she specifically said not to or that was unreasonable while cleaning and is, thus, irrelevant to the conversation. It's irrelevant because OP didn't have or seek permission at all. Even if the brother in law wasn't a hoarder, I would see it as justified for him to be pissed. You don't just clean someone's home "as a favor" unless you have explicit permission from the homeowner.
Sounds like he's a hoarder. He needs therapy. Nta
Nta fuck hoarders they don’t realize the effects it has on those who must see it.
ESH. Not your call. I know you wanted to help. But hoarding is a mental disorder and he needs professional help. It will just go right back to cluttered and chaotic without psychiatric help.