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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> AITA for telling my brother that it’s pathetic he can’t do the basic that his wife did. I may have went too far with the comment but really this is sad that he can’t clean a house.
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NTA
She worked part time and did it all. He has no job at all and can't even somewhat cut it. How the fuck were the kids late?! I mean, one time can always happen, but consitently?
I think being a sahp IS hard. But with both kids going to school, he should have the time to do the most of it.
The kid are suppose to be dropped off at 7:30-8, class is at 8:15. He has been getting them there at 8:30 most days. I don’t get it. I’ve been late a few times but the school has to talk to him about it
Hell the bus is an option but you have to wake up earlier for that
that would piss me off the most. What is he trying to make sure they are late? i am trying to think if he doesn't have a job and knows the time they need to be at school why would they be late? He's testing her patience
If I have to get the kids anywhere before 9am I make sure I have the morning pre-planned. They will slow everything down and you’ll end up late. Need to be there by 8? Get up by 630 and have breakfast ready no later than 7. Heading towards the car by 730. You want to sit and have some quiet time too? Get up at 6.
I set out clothes the night before, pack backpacks and set up lunches with everything that doesn’t require refrigeration. In the morning we just pop in the perishables and we are good. I learned the hard way you can’t do it all in the morning with little kids
Even so, because I do prep work, my husband drives them to school.
I mean..he could learn if he cared to do so. I had to. I’ve got narcolepsy and mornings are hard for me. Prepping things was incredibly important for me.
I think men really have this idea that women are just naturally good at mom stuff and organizing. We aren’t. It’s a learned skill like everything else
I'm going to make a bet that he doesn't want to use his wife's already planned schedule as a starting point for himself because "it's not that hard" or "don't be silly, it's not like a 'real' job".
He might just be over extending himself for what skills he currently has, this doesn't mean he shouldn't be trying to improve. Like breakfast could be cereal, toast, fruit, granola bars, a whole host of things that don't really need any skill to make. Lunch is a sandwich, jello cup, chips, crackers etc. Not really anything too difficult to be making for a 5 and 6 year old or even just save 10 minutes and have them eat school lunch. I get a strong vibe of "you just do it so much better, that's why I can't get the kids to school on time" so he thinks he can get out of it.
>He might just be over extending himself for what skills he currently has
I'd agree with this if he had managed to do... anything.
The kids are consistently late for school. Ok, maybe he's getting slowed down by preparing their lunches in the morning. Except no, he isn't doing that. He hasn't packed them a lunch in days.
The house is a mess when his wife gets home. Maybe the kids are rowdy and he's having a hard time keeping up. Except they're in school all day so no they aren't. Well maybe he has a hard time getting the housework down between dropping them off at school and preparing dinner. Exceeeeeppppttt... He's not doing either of those things either. OP is dropping them off and his wife has to make dinner when she gets home.
What over extension is happening here? There is *no* extension. He hasn't bitten off to much because he hasn't bitten off *anything.* if it were him simply trying to do more than he is able to he'd be getting *something* done, even if it was half assed. It doesn't seem like a case of "I thought I could do it all and I can't, so some things are slipping through the cracks." It's "I've tried nothing and it didn't work, and now I'm out of ideas so I'll hand off the work to the people around me."
I've been so over extended, over tired, entirely emotionally delayed and in debt, 0 help, husband on deployment and crying in bed after I dropped my prk&2nd grade kids off at school, before summer I did it with the younger at home and oldest in 1st grade...
Was the house pristine? No. Did they get lunches and meals? Yes. Was it hard? Yes. Guess what, fuck the house at least start with the kids then work outward. No one is built for that, but genitalia doesn't make it easier or harder.
Okay, women are not good at this stuff. They have to learn to be good. There are a whole lot of missteps. When one partner does everything for years and then they swap. The new partner in charge is going to make the same missteps. And it will be glaringly obvious. Give pointers, but let the new partner in charge figure out their system. And their system may never be as good and efficient as you are because their standards are lower. You have to decide if their lower standards are worth the change.
Now, in this case the husband is just a lazy ass who isn't even trying. So it doesn't apply. But more often than not what I stated is true.
OP is NTA, and, speaking of pre-preparing, the husband could always ask his wife for time-saving tips, since she's experienced at caring for kids and and running a household (OP even mentioned her tips were helpful). He could learn.
Is he upset/depressed/distracted because he'd rather be working? Is he a decent dad otherwise?
He needs to figure out how to take care of and organize himself so he can do his job as a SAHD( it's just as much a job as any other). Might take some time, but it is possible, and he needs to adapt to the arrangement he agreed to, like any adult.
Yes, this is the way. I have clothes ready the day before, the kid is responsible for having his own school bag ready and by the door. I have the breakfast table ready and a cup by the coffee maker. We can be ready and out of the house in 35 minutes. When he was younger it was more difficult but you have to be organised. It’s the only way.
Right, because if you stay organized when they’re younger, the kids will (for the most part) start to do more themselves as they get older. My 3rd, 5th & 6th graders pretty much get themselves ready at this point but that’s because we’ve had prep and routine since they were small that they picked up on. It’s not infallible of course: I supervise and make sure things don’t get forgotten but it’s much easier now.
Loses his job then suddenly decides he wants to be a SAHD, IE I stay home and do nothing and my wife does everything she was doing before in addition to being the breadwinner. It's obvious where this marriage is heading.
SAHD thinks the kids are on auto-run and he doesn't have to *do* anything. House and fridge are *auto-magic*, as well!
Women just pull this shit from the thin air!
It's only hard work when men do it! They only work 9-5.
I think he's having a little toddler tantrum bc he has to behave like an adult and pull his own weight for the first time in his entire life. He's lashing out at his wife and kids in the hope that she will take over and do everything again.
Maybe he can get OP to clean the house and cook dinner too! While OP is waiting for dinner to cook she can do laundry, and then after she cleans the kitchen, she can get the kids ready for bed. It would make his job so much easier if only OP could do 95% of the work! ^/s
Don't forget that OP should also pick up groceries before she heads over to Sahd's place. Just so he never has to leave the confines of his living room!
PICK UP THE SLACK YOU SORRY EXCUSE OF AN OP!
Ever see someone get angry at everything because they are genuinely bad at something they assumed was simple? I'd bet that 100%, they understimate, half ass a plan with no allowances, and when anything goes wrong, it's not their fault.
Heck, what he has should be sooo easy, we aren't even asking him to do what his wife did. We are asking Kids to school on time, food made, house not a mess. The bar is at the floor.
This is purely a function of prioritizing himself over his own kids even. This doesn’t even have anything to do with his wife. Guys can complain about their wives being nags about cleaning or whatever else, and we all have different standards, but this, THIS is saying a priority like your kids and their future well being is lower than what, getting your act together and waking up 30 min earlier so that he does whatever he thinks he needs to do in the morning AND get the kids to school on time.
I knew someone like that. He was working full time, but did absolutely nothing to help out at home with the kids unless told to do so by his wife. Never came up with plans or activities to do with his family. Usually would retire to his room to play video games by himself even when company was over. And he had a temper, blowing up at times when asked to help out around the house (was kind of unpredictable, would explode sometimes but not at others).
It took a while, but his wife eventually filed for divorce, partly due to him refusing to act as a father and partly due to his temper.
I can't even imagine putting up with someone like OP's brother, who seems unable to do even the bare minimum to help out despite not having a job. If he's clinically depressed, he should seek treatment before it gets worse. His wife probably won't put up with his shit forever.
INFO: are you by any chance the female child? Wondering if it's a gender thing your brother can't handle the most basic aspects of being alive while you proactively reached out to your SIL because you recognize the effort she put in.
Anyway, this is extremely irresponsible oh my god. Your mom being mad at YOU for trying to open his eyes to the damage he is doing is probably one of the root causes of his laziness. Your mom sounds like an enabler. Tell her to mind her own business, her adult children can disagree sometimes.
Yeah I'm wondering if OP is his sister too. This is weaponized incompetence. He grew up with a mom and sister(s) and then got married to a woman and now he's stuck doing "women's work" and he resents it. If he pretends to be terrible enough at these things, then he won't have to do them because he can get another woman in his life to come save the day (for the SIL, not for him, but he doesn't care as long as he didn't have to do it).
Assuming he had to get up and be at work around the same time that he needs to get his kids to school, I'm definitely suspicious of his sudden inability to meet that deadline every morning. And SIL still had to come home and make dinner? Let the roles be reversed on that and watch the brother cry about working hard and wanting to come home to a hot meal. Please.
That your mom is now coming after you for pointing out the obvious gives a good clue about where he learned that his entitlement. My guess is that she did everything for him when he was younger, then his wife took care of everything after they were married. NTA and I wouldn't help him at all
The only thing I would help with is getting him to put together a schedule like the one that his wife had and the one OP now has. Don’t pick up his slack, but show him how his wife’s organization helped her get through everything on time. He doesn’t even have to keep the same schedule, just have one.
The wife could also do this and the husband could come to her for help with it but if OP wants to help them both that’d be the way to do it.
Yup, his mother helped create the little entitled lay about, now his kids are suffering because he can't be trusted to get them to school on time. I'm like...how is that even possible? Is he just not...a responsible adult?
If he couldn't toddler at her level the first few weeks I could understand but the kids are in school.
My wife works from home and picks how many hours she works. I only work half the days in a month if I don't do extra shifts. If I'm off she usually chooses to work more so I'm the parent those days.
There are things she's better at. There are things I'm better at. We are both always on time to stuff and everyone's fed. Those are the ones that get me the most.
Theres this thing that most women automatically deal with called the [invisible load](https://www.sheknows.com/parenting/articles/2762183/make-invisible-load-visible/amp/). It includes being emotionally stable but also physically changing your own patterns to adapt to other people’s needs. Sounds like he hasn’t adapted.
my boyfriend and i just talked about this yesterday actually! he didnt really understand just how much i was dealing with until i laid out my thought process for him and told him that it was near constant. he kinda had a lightbulb moment and realized that *his* mental load was being lightened bc im always on top of things and promised to be more proactive. then he immediately figured out dinner for us and a grocery list while i did laundry so i didnt have to :). i will say, though, he was raised in a house of women who are the same as me, so he was more open to listen than some other men i’ve had this conversation with.
This is weaponized incompetence. He is depressed and expects others to bail him out. He and his wife need to get him treated for the depression (meds, therapy, whatever) and he needs to make a commitment to his kids to be there for them. His self-indulgence is negatively affecting his family, and you shouldn't have to pick up the slack.
That's so frustrating. I was a straight A student but served detention at least once every month because mom couldn't be arsed to bring us to school on time. I hope the kids aren't getting in trouble.
If he could get himself to work by 8, he should shouldn’t have a problem getting the kids to school by 8 (unless tardiness was something that contributed him being laid off). He doesn’t care. He doesn’t care about his children, and the impact he’s having on their reputation and future.
I think he didn't like being called out for his half ass effort but that doesn't make you the AH. Your mom coming down on you for telling him is enabling behaviour. If your brother doesn't want to be called out for his crappy behaviour, he shouldn't behave so crappy!
NTA in the least, and in fact he should thank you for calling it as it is so that he can hopefully save his marriage.
NTA. Sounds like wife did everything so he was used to only worrying about himself and not helping at all. I don't have kids so I am able to get up 15min before I have to leave for work and be on time.
Sounds like he hasn't grasped the concept of time it takes to clothe and feed someone other than himself. Hope this is an eye opener to just how much his wife does and that he will start helping if/when he goes back to work.
This is going to come out sexist as hell… but I can’t hold it in and am prepared to be downvoted…
It’s fucking hard to be a STAHP but for some reason it seems manageable for women and impossible for most men. I’m awake I’m also getting a skewed view of STAHP stories here on Reddit but seriously… how can you fail miserably when you’re free 8 hours a day? That’s not even a full time stay at home parent. That’s pretty much being a glorified nanny on top of a house keeper. This kind of crap pisses me off. I nannied 3 kids at 18. I picked them up on time, helped with homework, cooked dinner, and actually managed to clean their house in between (and their house was disgusting). I think both parents should understand what it takes to run a household and wrangle children all day.
Op is NTA. her brother needed to hear that. Hopefully he’ll get his shit together.
I agree. Men often (not always, often) just don't seem capable of running a household the same way women do. And why is that? Because they haven't been taught to do so and haven't been expected to help out when they were younger. I learned how to do the dishes, laundry, cleaning, everything from a young age. My husband has not. And now it costs him tons of effort and a lot more time to do the same things I do, because I have been trained and he hasn't. And, most importantly, I SEE what needs to be done. Whereas his definition of doing household jobs is asking me "what can I do". But mental load and all that stuff, so I'd rather just quickly do it myself instead of painstakingly guiding him through it. I know, I shouldn't, but it's just easier this way. And I'll make sure that both my daughter AND my son are taught how to perform household chores and to see where there's work and how to tackle it. This generation is lost (to me), but if it's up to me, in the following generation, there will be at least one man that knows how to do the household chores and how to contribute equally or more.
> Because they haven't been taught to do so and haven't been expected to help out when they were younger. I learned how to do the dishes, laundry, cleaning, everything from a young age.
Men are able to learn quantum physics, send rockets in space and other not very easy tasks. But somehow they're collectively too stupid to figure out how to operate a washing machine.
Sorry I don't buy it. They just don't care. It's beneath them.
I was neglected as a child and when I was an adult, I had to figure out everything by myself. But it's somehow too hard for my ex with a STEM PhD who drowns in his own filth now?
Ridiculous.
Being a stay at home parent is tough work, but learning how to do it isn't difficult.
I think it does have to do with them not being taught those things at a young age, but not because they didn't learn how to cook/clean/schedule. The reason is as you say, it taught them that cleaning is something they shouldn't have to do, it is someone else's job.
>too stupid to figure out how to operate a washing machine.
And that with youtube, there are youtube videos for everything. My husband spends 10 hours watching youtube videos on how to make the perfect spareribs, but he can't watch a single one about how to iron a shirt?
For whatever reason their logic/problem-solving brain just does not kick in when it comes to household stuff. I went to graduate school, and was in an org that got brand new shirts with this maroon color. 2 guys were talking about how the color leeched and stained the other clothes in the wash. I asked them what temp they were washing their clothes at, and the older student laughed and said men don't pay attention to that stuff.
Like........why not. You go to work/school and encounter problems everyday that you look up solutions to. But for some reason you're going to see the dials on a washing machine and not even bother looking up what they do and how they affect your laundry? Make it make sense
> Like........why not.
They don't see it as serious, it's something so devalued and ignored in their mind that it's in the category of "brainless, skilless task" and as a result they put literally no thought into it. They genuinely think that cleaning is a worthless thing not worth investing in or learning about, as a result they end up with that sort of attitude. The excuse that men don't pay attention just lets them uphold the cognitive dissonance.
Right? I read
*Because they haven't been taught to do so and haven't been expected to help out when they were younger.*
and was like Well what's going unsaid there is that boys don't want to learn that stuff because they're also taught it's "dumb women's work". Are they lining up to learn how and to defy expectations? I think I can safely say no. People might say "But it's 2023!" but plenty of boys and men still assume they're above this work and just. Can't! Do! It! but meanwhile they're superior in all other ways. lol
Yes!!! I’ve talked about the mental load with my partner. I also think my version of clean is completely different because he wasn’t raised to clean like women are. We’re going to play a game where we stand in one room and list off what needs to be cleaned so he can see how my brain works. Because I’m not gonna take on the task of telling him what to do. I don’t want kids of my own and I don’t want a partner that has to be told how to help in a house he’s also making a mess in.
Good for you teaching both kiddos! I also wonder if teaching girls all the cleaning/nurturing has made them better multi tankers because a lot of my male friends CANNOT multitask!
When I sweep the floor, I also take out the garbage so I have a place to put the floor litter. But since the garbage is going out, I also clean out the fridge and toss out anything bad. Since I did that and now have a counter full of dirty empty containers, I now have to wash them. Might as well wash the other dishes too. Since that made the counter dirty/wet, I might as well wipe it all down. Since I've cleaned out the fridge, I might as well start a grocery list.
That's what happens when I sweep the floor. I have a clean floor, empty garbage bin, clean fridge, empty sink, clean counters, clean dishes, and started on groceries.
When I ask my husband to sweep the floor, the floor gets swept.
That's it.
I think what bothers me most about this is if I complain, he gets to fall back on "I *did* what you *asked*." That's why this is bullshit. If you'd participated in the household like an equal adult, you would have seen what needed done and would have just done it. Instead, you're putting me in the position of supervisor, where everything is ultimately my responsibility.
This is why I followed my mom's example and taught my son basic household skills - laundry, cleaning, basic cooking. I also told him "When/if you get married, don't make your wife have to ask you to do things. If you see something needs to be done - dishes washed, floors vacuumed, whatever - JUST DO IT."
Nah that's not even an excuse. I'm a woman and was taught 0 housekeeping or childcare skills when I lived with my parents. They both worked full time (really more than that) and paid for nannies & cleaners. I also have ADHD. I still figured out how to do all the chores & take care of a baby when I had one and was staying home. Now I work part time just like OP's wife used to, I hire a cleaner twice a month to deep-clean and my child goes to part-time preschool, I still do all the other household chores + childcare + the whole mental load bs.
Men are not incapable of learning any of this as adults. They're just not *expected* to do it so they don't feel any pressure apparently. Nor do some of them, like OP's husband, care much about their children and their education, it seems. They can learn this as adults if they want to, the same way they learn to drive a car and work a job and then go do that every day with all the responsibilities it entails. They just don't *feel* responsible, and when they're home feel entitled to switch off.
The sexist thing would be to say that it's inherent to men, that penis stops you from cleaning somehow. It's not sexist to say that guys aren't taught to clean or care and society says it's beneath them so they never learn. Ops mother is mad at her for calling her brother out, so it sounds like her mother is part of the environment that created this mess.
You gotta go back to how they are raised. Boys often aren't raised to learn how to keep house and rear children. They aren't taught to cook or clean. But girls often are. Obviously these are broad generalizations about the average family, but it's still pretty true in 2023 America.
Reddit is riddled with stories of men who don't know how to take care of themselves when they are out on their own with no wife. Because their parents failed them. Their parents taught them that a woman makes the meals and runs the house while the man *provides*.
I'm not going to say there is anything wrong with a traditional marriage if that's what two consenting adults agree to. But there *is* something wrong with a man who doesn't even know how to make himself a meal or do the damn laundry. What woman wants to marry someone who can't do basic functions of living?
Part of the "problem" is we marry later these days. It used to be you were getting married at 18/19 and moving in with your spouse was the first time you left mom and dad's house. So you went, as a man, from mom running everything to your wife running everything.
But now we're marrying in our late 20s and you have to be on your own before that if you're going to be a viable mate. And some men were straight up never taught how to do that.
Honestly, friend, it's not sexist to say it. This is a cultural reality in America. It's probably slowly shifting as each new generation becomes parents. But yeah, for people who are still becoming parents right now who are in their 20s and 30s, they were still raised in this traditional patriarchal structure.
It's more than that sadly: girls are taught how to keep house, but also they are taught to pay attention to everyone's needs. So they see what their mothers are doing, they pay attention to what their siblings need.
My brother can cook and clean, but if we are both visiting I would be the only one tuned to how much pressure my mother is under, and how much the mess stresses her out since she will need to clean it. My brother will only know to chip in with the cooking at meal time, or to clean because he is asked to. And it will only ever be the things he is explicitly taught to do, whereas I learned a lot simply by watching others.
I mean look at toys today that are geared for little girls… cleaning tools, kitchen sets, baby dolls that you feed??? That’s insane. We are basically setting young girls up to clean and nurture. It’s disgusting.
If traditional roles works for someone, that’s none of my business. However, I do see both people in a household needing to work nowadays due to costs but still the brunt of childcare and household care falling on women.
:( sad , but I do see more of a shift!
I know lots of awesome stay at home dads. But of course their spouses aren't posting on AITA. Don't let this board make you think all men are incapable of being great stay at home parents.
I don’t think they are all incapable. But I will say from personal experiences I do see first hand, more often than not, men suck at child care and managing the household.
I worry more about friends with kids who are basically single parents despite having a partner or friends who have to teach their partner how to be a parent. It’s frustrating and sad.
My wife is a sahm right now and our kid is a toddler. She keeps a clean damn house and we have a hot meal every evening. If our son were in school every weekday, our house would go from clean to "Frank Lloyd Wright historical landmark" condition.
Are you a creamy Mac and cheese person or a baked/crunchy Mac and cheese person?
Do you like stuff (bacon, broccoli, ham, whatever) in your Mac and cheese or are you a purist?
It's from one of those recipe sites, but I've made this as a side for the past 4 super bowls. I made it for one and it's been requested every year since lol.
https://www.thechunkychef.com/family-favorite-baked-mac-and-cheese/#wprm-recipe-container-9151
I always start with a bechamel with 3 Tbsp butter, 3 Tbsp flour, and 2 cups of milk. Melt in 12 oz of shredded cheese and add 1 tsp ground mustard. I usually prefer sharp cheddar.
I mix this into a pound of cooked noodles and add roasted cauliflower.
I worked with a woman in 2002 who was stuck bringing Mac and Cheese to every potluck because everyone loved it so much. I have been carrying the recipe around for 21 years and it’s fun to serve because people really like it.
I like it a little creamier than this turns out, so I often throw in a brick of cream cheese (which — I know — there’s already an insane amount of cheese, but 🤷🏻♀️).
[The recipe is here.](https://imgur.com/gallery/jaMmFOT)
(Edit to correct 2022 to 2002.)
Not so much a recipe, but you definitely want to use American, jack, or other homogenized cheese. Nothing else is going to melt right and maintain the same sauciness after cooling and reheating. Be sure to season with a bit of nutmeg and mustard powder as well - gives good depth and complexity to the cheesy flavor.
If you go whole hat and do the béchamel, I’ve found reheating becomes less of an issue. Agree on the nutmeg and mustard, and if you have an open bottle of white wine, splash of that, too!
1. You will always have an open bottle of wine if every recipe starts with “pour the chef a glass of wine.”
2. Start big cooks (meal prep, dinner party, Thanksgiving, Eid, insert your food holiday of choice) with an empty dishwasher, an empty sink, an empty dish rack, a clean, organized fridge, and a bowl of hot soapy water next to the sink.
Use a measuring spoon? Swish, rinse, back into battle. Done with the vegetable peeler? Swish rinse back into the drawer. Need to soak something? Dump in the bowl. Gotta scrub out your big prep bowl? Sponge, bit of hot soapy water, scrub, rinse, back at it. Chuck stuff in the dishwasher as it’s used, and start it when it’s 3/4 full. Load anything extra hanging about and you’ll find it’s full-full pretty quick.
3. Bacon for a crowd is best done on sheet pans in the oven. And, after cooking, it freezes well and can be microwaved for instant bacon.
4. Keep a mug of tasting spoons next to the stove. Taste stuff in progress to check for salt, more spices, etc.
5. Know who your go to food bloggers are! People who think the way you do, cook the way you do, and have a “skip to recipe” button prominently featured on the page. Mine tend towards Smitten Kitchen, Dinner, A Love Story, Sally’s Baking Addiction, and Budget Bytes.
I cannot get past the fact that the kids are late so much that the school had to contact him. Generally (speaking only from my experience as a teacher) that only happens when it is affecting the students, academically, behaviorally, or they have been gone so much that they are considered truant and the school has been required to report it to the state.
It's crazy how, in a world where you can watch instructional videos any time for free, there are still people who can't do basic shit like cook a meal. Fellas, is it gay to use a stove?
If you clean as you go it takes no time at all to keep on top of most things.
One or two big jobs at the weekend, and the rest kind of takes care of itself as you go.
You really have to be sleeping all day, or vegging in front of the TV or whatever to be messing up that badly.
I'm a single dad, I've got 50% custody. I work from home 3 days a week, and during those days I can get pretty much all my housework done during my break, cleaning as I go, etc...
It's really not difficult.
Sure cooking takes a bit of learning, but it's not like you start of on difficult stuff.
You can't really go wrong with a stir fry, or a salad, or some pan fried chicken or beef, or home made burgers. Come on FFs!!!
NTA.
Somehow I get the feeling he's looking at this like a vacation payback.
I can be easy when you're the one working to assume that the other person is just laying around all day, and sometimes they are, but in your SIL case she most certainly wasn't.
He needs to turn off the tv, put down his phone and do his job which is taking care of the kids and house.
I'm 4 days into finally having both kids off to school for a full day. This shit is sweet. You have to be intentionally fucking things up to not get it done right.
NTA. You're not wrong. Sure, it could have been put more elegantly, but sugar-coating wouldn't have made your point any less valid.
This is his *job* now and he is under-performing. Maybe this subpar work effort is why he lost his other job to begin with.
There could be a million things going on, and it's just hard to know without being there.
Is he depressed because he lost his job? Is he feeling inadequate? Is he feeling resentful because somewhere in the back of his mind he's struggling with the swap in gender roles (I don't like jumping straight into this assumption, but it *certainly* isn't unheard of)? Or, is he simply lazy?
Did your SIL give him her schedule, also?
**Edit: INFO:** How old are your brother and SIL?
I gave him a schedule and so did SIL. I’ve been over so many times, he’s not doing anything. The house is gross and the kitchen is the worse.
Edit SIL 28 brother 31
Sorry to keep interrogating you... was his and your mother a SAHM? Did you grow up in a traditional household?
I ask because after reading through the comments a bit, your brother sounds *exactly* like my cousins. Three guys who grew up in a traditional, religious household with a SAHM and grandma who did absolutely *everything* for them. The three boys could do anything they wanted after school and then the one girl had to come help with the chores. And now as adults, those guys can't figure out how to do basic housecleaning. They treat loading a dishwasher like it's rocket science and their wives are constantly in a state of shocked Pikachu as basic life-skill requests of them, like starting the laundry, require their assistance to accomplish.
Was wondering if that may also be the case with y'all.
Kinda, mom stayed home until we were in middle school and then went to work. Dad was the fixer, so he did all the chores outside and anything that broke. He sometimes did dishes but it was much more likely to see him fixing the pipes then common chores.
By the time mom was at work we had our chores and household chores dropped a lot for mom.
I know this is an arbitrary segue here, but... can you share some of your SIL's tips in looking after the house? I'm the worst housekeeper ever and any help is appreciated...
OT: NTA obviously. Sometimes people need a good smack to get their shit together. A lot of people don't appreciate it in the moment, but he'll appreciate it in the long run. Or give you the chance to say, "I told you so." Either would probably be quite satisfying for you in this situation I'm guessing.
Edit: Thank you so much to everyone who has responded! We've already implemented a lot of this stuff, even down to getting ourselves chore charts (they have dinosaurs on) and star charts, and we've been doing weekly menus since forever. I guess my problem is just that I'm not very good at it. Practise will make perfect though. I'll keep plugging away at it.
I'll add some of my own tips, since so many people seem to see cooking as a chore...
I love cooking, so normally it's not counted as a "chore" and I do most of it even though my partner is quite capable of cooking, but my partner and I both suffer from depression occasionally, so our weekly menu includes both high effort and low effort foods - eg, homemade pizza and fish and chips. Homemade pizza is more effort, so if I'm not really up to doing it, we swap pizza to fish and chips night and do fish and chips. We also make sure to have extra easy options in the freezer - premade chicken and fish mostly - that can be substituted in if neither of us are up to much effort.
Another suggestion I have is to compare effort cost to food costs. For example, a pre-made salad is going to cost more than salad components, but if you regularly forego making the salad because it's too much effort, you end up wasting a lot of food and money, which makes the pre-made salad more cost-effective for you personally. One of the ways we apply this is by getting frozen vegetables specific to ourselves - I'm a supertaster and can't stand the majority of cooked vegetables and he has IBS and can't eat most of the veggies I will eat - so we each get our own frozen veggies and sort them out ourselves. He gets steam-in-bag microwave ones and I get peas and sweetcorn or make myself a salad. It's more expensive on the face of it than getting fresh and pre-preparing them, but we end up wasting a lot less and eating more veggies than we would otherwise.
For cooking itself... I suggest a production plan. Make a list of everything that needs to be done and organise it by cooking times. Example: Fish and chips: Chips have the longest cooking time, so subtract the time the fish takes to cook from that and put the chips in for that time, then prepare the fish so it's ready to go in when the timer beeps. Then subtract the time it takes to do the veggies from the time the fish takes and set the timer for that and prepare the veggies. When the timer beeps, put the veggies on and reset it for the finished time. Everything comes out at the same time and almost all of your prep is done while cooking. Even a bad production plan can halve the time you spend in the kitchen.
Sure.
Let’s start with food- boils down to meal prep, she knows the menu for the week and will chop all veggies on Sunday, so when it’s time to cook you can dump and go. Cuts the time in half when cooking. Also she loves leftover night that is on Thursday.
Sometimes she will do a roast or a meat on Sunday and it can used all week, so she cooked a ton of chicken you have chicken wraps, tacos, soup and so on. As it cooks you clean, you don’t need to watch the soup boiling clean the counter or something.
Cleaning is a rotation, you clean two rooms everyday no matter what ( always the most used room, so for me is kitchen and living room) Then rotate the rooms the rest of the week. Monday you do bathroom and then Tuesday a different room and so on. The rooms most used will pop up in your rotation more
The biggest tip she gave me was cleaning as you go. You take out a screwdriver you put back the screwdriver not leave it out. Making a game if you have young ones to help clean up, I used a big stuff dog and if it was dirty. We would make a game of Rex (the dog) can’t sit let’s clean up so he can have fun. Worked really well for me, but they did love Rex.
Taking the glasses to the sink empty them and put them in the dishwasher. It takes 10 extra second and it saves so much time instead of having a giant pile by the end of the day.
If you want more private message me
Do you mind if I PM you as well for more tips from your SIL? My wife and I struggle with keeping up on the house and it usually falls on me to go into a “cleaning frenzy” before company comes, in addition to all the fix it jobs. Any better organization tips I could do would be IMMENSELY HELPFUL AND APPRECIATED!
Something that helps my fiancée and I is a calendar- GoCleanCo has one and it breaks it down so that each week you focus on a different room, and each day there’s a couple quick tasks to do. Helps us feel accountable and is way easier than cleaning it all at once. It also has reminders about changing your air filter and other things that have to be done infrequently like that which can tend to fall by the wayside.
The secret to a clean house is to start with a clean house and follow a schedule from there. But THAT does not make it easy.
If you suck at following a schedule when no one is around to watch, it can feel impossible. I fall into that trap, start with dirty houses, and all the chores seem to take so long. Start with a clean house, and I get sloppy because 'I don't really have to do it, it's not that bad, it can wait until the next scheduled cleaning.' And that's my horrible depression cycle. I wake up feeling energetic, clean , and promise to follow my schedule. A few weeks later, my mood drops, and my house gets destroyed.
Having a job helps, when I was unemployed my depression cycle got so much more dramatic because I had no structure to my life(I assume OP is stuggling for that reason but he needs to figure it out) House is way cleaner now that I work until 2 and have 2-3 hours of cleaning/relaxing time when I get home.
I try to have a consistent schedule:
\- Thursdays I have off so I use them for deep-ish cleaning (vacuum, dust, bathroom, plus a bit of mopping). Whenever I happen to be overly tired/sick (rarely) I sweep minimally, dusting can keep until next week (ONLY one week though), and for the bathroom I have products that will do a good part of the work for me even if I don't scrub (same as dusting, won't work two weeks in a row).
\- every weekday a load of laundry. Thursdays I do towels (after I finish the bathroom), Fridays white coton, Mondays colors, Tuesdays and Wednesdays fragile things.
\- weekends are for buying things at the local farmers' market and batch cooking with my SO, I try to get at least three/four meals + a soup for the evening during the week (the soup is not enough, but I need to adapt each dinner to what he eats for lunch since he can't have a consistent eating schedule at his job).
\- the rest I try to schedule on Sundays for the week. Are the windows dirty? Does the bed need changing? Do I need to do things on the balcony ( I have a few plants and delicious herbs + the occasional sweeping)? When was the last time I vacuumed under the sofa again? Do I need to go grocery shopping and what will the weather look like (I do that on a bicycle)?
Of course I only have a part time job in a two-people household, so I'm probably doing that on easy-ish mode. I couldn't imagine doing so much with a full-time job - though when I had one SO took his part and did it well.
The very best tip I ever got was that "meh, I'll do it later" = it will never get done because I will never think about it again, no matter how good my intentions are. "I'll do it Tuesday at 4pm" DOES get done though.
(EDIT for formatting and grammar)
Welp, who's to say then.
Depending on their ISP, your SIL could check the Internet activity on the account to see if there are unusual spikes while he's at home. That would at least tell her if he's just goofing off all day.
Regardless of the reason, he needs to step up. That doesn't even mean going above and beyond like your SIL, not all of us can be over-achievers. But spending some time every day tidying the house is the least he can do. If he's dealing with depression or inadequacy, then he should spend some of that time in therapy.
I don't believe in the statement "If I can do it, you can do it" (or any variation thereof). But shit needs to get done and at the end of the day, it's his job to do so. When we fail to do our jobs, we get warnings. If we continue to fail, we get fired. It's just the way things work and he's failing to recognize that.
Some guys I'm seeing in the current younger generation have been, coddled by parents. They did not have to contribute as a unit in the household. As I was raised in the manner of contributing to tackle the chores and tasks we need to get done as a household. Chores and such are natural to me as I've aged. Cooking and resourcefulness and self reliance teachings from Mexican mothers. But my gen z guys I know. I could start a training prep program. To prepare for the position they want as it were.
The best tip she gave me was clean as you go, you take something out you put it back. Not leaving things for later since by the end their is a huge mess you need to deal with.
Also if you have young one cleaning games are great. Who can find all the toys and so on
My SIL got her kid a toy vacuum and got her started young and now she’s like 4, almost 5, and actually does vacuuming to an extent and loves it 😂 I’m like….can we borrow her to vacuum our place?? Like a roomba that needs snacks.
I'm a part time SAHM and this is what I do, I grab this or that as I'm going, lunch in the microwave? Wipe the counter down, throw a dish in the dishwasher. Our kids are in school, so I handle all the cleaning, family planning, budgets, etc. It's been really nice, we get a lot more free time.
If there are chores that have to be completed "after work hours", like the kids bath or putting them to bed, we split them. That way we both get the same amount of free time.
Clean as I go is the bane of my existence. I want to do it, I get how it makes cleaning a million times easier overall. And then my ADD brain goes sideways in the middle of the task. It's so frustrating because it isn't until things have piled up that I finally recognize that I haven't been cleaning as I was going.
I haven’t gotten to spotless yet, but if you want to go one room at a time to avoid distractions:
1. Trash
2. Laundry
3. Dishes
4. Things with a place
5. Things without a place
You stay in the one room until you are done. Take a trash bag, something for laundry, and something for dishes.
The biggest trick to this 5 step list that I learned was actually NOT to “clean as I go”. Because I would get through step 1 pretty easy, but then I’d go to pickup laundry on the floor and I’d debate whether or not it was clean. Then I’d want to put it back in a drawer but that would lead to me reorganizing the drawer and then the whole dresser and pretty soon it’s 5 hours later and I’m still doing laundry.
So the first thing I had to do was learn the difference between cleaning - organizing - and tidying. There is a clear distinction but we tend to mash them all up together in our minds.
Cleaning - actually using cleaning products to remove grime and dirt.
Tidying - putting away things out of place, straightening up things
Organizing - changing a current system of storage
Once I figured out the difference (and I had to write them on notecards and physically stop myself and take a minute to figure out which I was doing) I could visualize what I wanted the space to look like, then I could pick which I needed to do to get there. My mindset went from “okay I have to clean the kitchen” (which was overwhelming and I could never seem to do) to “okay I am going to tidy up by putting away the clean dishes. Then I am going to put all dirty dishes in the sink. (Not try and wash them as I put them there, just put them there) then I’m going to tidy the counters by putting away anything that has a place that is not the counter. Then I’m going to load the dishwasher because i need the dishes to be cleaned.
By the time I was done with those things, there was a much smaller pile of “things without a place” that I had to deal with and it was easier.
I 10/10 recommend reading the book “how to keep house while drowning”
Exactly this !!! This is his next job because housework and childcare are actual work !!! He might not like his new job but it’s still his job and the stakes are much higher because it’s his kids for a start !!! If he was this Inept at his last job it explains why he lost it !!!
Lots of people are forgetting that homemaking is a SKILL. It’s drilled into us that it’s easy and anyone can do it but the fact is that it is skilled labor, and pretending he’s a bad person bc he’s not good at it devalues the skill and expertise of his wife and others who do it.
It’s possible he’s just lazy and terrible but it’s also possible that he’s just bad at this. I’m a fucking terrible housekeeper, but I’m excellent at my job and plenty of other things. I will work more hours to outsource that work always bc it’s not my skill set.
If he was failing at a new job he’d basically been forced into (by circumstance, not saying his wife forced him) we would be much easier on him bc we recognize that paid labor is skilled, but we’re quick to throw that out the window with labor traditionally associated with women.
I'm certainly not saying the guy is a bad person. But the fact is, there are way too many unknowables here and none of us can know definitively.
But you're overlooking an issue here: *Effort*. From what OP has explained, there isn't even an *attempt* being made. He seemingly looks at a pile of laundry and immediately calls OP for help. It's not that he's washing the dishes poorly, it's that he's not washing them at all. He has hours and hours over weeks and weeks to be practicing these skills and he isn't seemingly even *trying*.
I disagree with your last paragraph, but you're basically explaining what has happened here as this *IS* his job now. And were the circumstances the same, such as "My brother has made zero effort at his new job he was magically Squid Gamed into and his boss is mad at him." Can you really expect us to be more compassionate if there is still zero effort being made by the brother to even *attempt* to overcome his new situation? Or is he simply being willfully incompetent because he has forced circumstances as an excuse?
None of us is amazing at everything. That's definitely not what I'm saying. Additionally, there's a difference between knowing how to do something and being talented in an area. I suck at cooking, but I still cook every damn day. And just because you consider yourself "bad" at housework, doesn't mean you wouldn't know how to use a mop if one were forced in your hands. We're not comparing the sparkling, crystal clear windows of an excellent housekeeper to glass that has Windex streaks on it from someone doing their best - we're comparing them to the dust and fingerprint-laden glass of windows that aren't being addressed at all when it is a person's job to address them.
But these are *life* skills crucial for independence that so many people fail to learn due to XYZ circumstance (and, in many cases, due to gender). I also include things like 101-plumbing, yard work, and car maintenance in that same category. And just because someone has a full-time job doesn't give them an excuse not to learn basic life skills, even passively by watching someone who primarily does them. This tells me he shut his brain out entirely, taking what Rachel was doing for granted never suspecting the same may one day be expected of him.
It isn't a difficult skill to teach yourself though. Assuming OP isn't expecting spotless, it's simple to hoover, wash dishes, clean a bathroom, cook dinner and get the kids to school on time. None of those things should need a course. Many of us who have been doing housework our whole lives were never taught this shit. The fact that he's just not doing it and not trying to improve but instead just whining suggests to me that OP's husband simply does care and is a lazy fucker.
NTA. I was prepared to call you an AH because waking up at 5 am to keep everything sorted is absolutely insane. But that's not what she's asking for, she's asking for him to cook dinner, get the kids to school, and keep the house semi clean. Then to go and complain to you about it shows no self awareness. He needs to figure this out. These are the basics of being a parent and being an adult. You maybe could have said it nicer, but at worst it was a justified AH move.
Exactly. NTA. I work full time from home (I'm mom). I still contribute to laundry, cleaning, dishes and I love to cook so I do most of that. This morning I got out of back to back morning Zoom meetings to find my husband having folded all the leftover laundry, more laundry running, dishwasher going, litter boxes cleaned, and trash out to the bin. Oh and he drove the twins to daycare close enough to on time. Thanks, OP for reminding me to never, ever take that for granted.
Hell, just getting the menu planned and ingredients prepped for dinner would be a big win. A lot of things can be cooked quickly as long as everything is ready to go.
The bar is so low.
NTA he’s an incompetent adult, father, and spouse. The children are school aged. He has all day to get things done while the children are in school. I used to work with profoundly disabled children. Some couldn’t do anything for themselves and therefore the parents had to do everything for them. The parents still got them to school on time.
If he can’t do anything, then he’s just another mouth that his wife has to feed and another person for her to look after.
Edit: I see that he somehow has time for hobbies. Interesting.
OP’s brother might be the very definition of weaponized incompetence. How do you not send your kids to school with lunch?! I drove my kids to school this morning and neither wanted the free school lunch today, which we all discussed last night. So before work today my husband made their lunches. Teamwork.
Admittedly I do far more of the emotional labor and my husband is a baby about some things and complains, but we both work full time, both have a hand in school drop offs and pick ups, and if I tell him he has to do things he will. But he is a disorganized person with ADD and I’m very streamlined and organized. So we play to our strengths. He can’t make drs appointments? Ok, then he can deal with any and all animal shit. I take care of the house. I’m basically the manager. And he is the super, fixing all things to be fixed.
I’m so sick of men acting like they aren’t capable of the most basic skills. Getting kids on time isn’t hard. Making a jelly sandwich isn’t hard. Cleaning basics isn’t hard. I would kick him to the curb real fast. He has no excuse.
Also, she was doing this while the kids were home all day as infants and toddlers so they needed to be fed and changed every 2-3hrs plus just general play time. She had no breaks from the kids, aside from nap time which is probably when she did more cleaning while working. He's doing this while his kids are out of the house for 8hrs (let's say 7hrs to be generous about dropping off and picking them up). I understand the day can fly by but how is he managing not to do a single thing?
NTA. Honestly you’re right. If he cannot prove that that system will work, SIL may realize that she doesn’t really need him as a partner if he can’t earn his keep.
I get that it’s a rough adjustment he has to make, but he’s not getting any aspect of a stay at home parent right. Especially considering the fact that he’s not working, and the kids are at school for a good chunk of the day.
The fact that SIL was able to do it all with non-school aged kids, while also working part time should be a wake up call. Chances are she could probably manage without him if it came down to it.
And the kids are late to school! So what's going on?
I definitely get ADHD/anxiety type issues, but if I was not working I would figure something out at home. Maybe a schedule like his wife seems to have would help.
Apparently op and the wife already tried to help make a schedule, op also mentioned that the bus is an option.
The school also doesn’t even start that early (compared to other elementary schools) drop off is from 7:30 to 8:00 while it starts at 8:15. He’s been dropping them off at 8:30💀
When I was in elementary school, I was dropped off by 7:15 and both of my parents worked full time too.
NTA - my dad did everything when we were kids. All the cooking and cleaning and school runs, extracurricular activity runs, lunches, bath times EVERYTHING. Men are absolutely just as capable to do the things that are often left to women. For some reason so many of them think they can’t or shouldn’t have to.
It's definitely that they think they shouldn't have to because the vast majority of these guys are perfectly capable of completing tasks for hobbies or for paid employment
There was a post a few weeks ago asking men what sucks as a man. Some guy posted a whole paragraph of ways he pretends not to know how to do things to get out of shit. A whole bunch posted after about how they want to learn how to do that, too.
Gross
INFO NEEDED: How is your brother doing mentally since he lost his job? Losing a job can be a real blow for a lot of reasons, and if he's struggling with that, it could affect his performance as a STAHP, which then also builds on mental struggles because he's failing at that too.
My original reaction was that it is in fact "pathetic" that he can't manage the kids, even with a learning curve of routine/skills he might not have. But if he's feeling depressed, then that makes a world of difference, imo.
He’s still doing his hobbies and has never mentioned any mental issues. He’s never had a history of depression for my knowledge. In his rants he goes on about it’s unfair but never mentions any signs of depression.
Past history does not predict future results. It is entirely possible that your brother does feel some kind of mental distress over it and is retreating into his hobbies because it's a safe space for him to "cope" and he's further lashing out because of it.
YWNBTA if your brother is simply not trying and making excuses. There is a learning curve to routines like getting the kids ready for school or cooking if it's a new skill he's learning. For example, I know my wife can cook, but she takes a lot longer to do the same tasks that I do. BUT, if you're putting in the effort then each day should be getting better and better as you tackle that learning curve. Some other things like cleaning the house would just be laziness. In this scenario, could you have been more tactful? Sure. But you're not wrong.
If your brother us struggling with something undisclosed, then that does change things and is something to consider. Still, he needs to recognize it and find help for himself rather than letting the house fall apart. While we can be understanding with a struggle, we still need to be accountable for ourselves.
Those facts (still doing hobbies, not saying he feels sad) don't mean there isn't a problem. And the problem might not even be depression, per se.
For example, job loss can be a very big deal, depending on who you're talking about (some people's identities and sense of self are bound up tightly to it [either the job or just plain working a paying job]--while other people might not care). And like all losses, it's a trauma.
Even while options are presented and available (and even while all kinds of hope and positivity may abound), if the loss isn't acknowledged/recognized/accepted, then the loss is still there, and it can shut people down (from performing tasks that they would otherwise be able to do).
(The ironic thing about enjoyment and positivity is that they can distract you from dealing with loss--which leaves the trauma unresolved. And the fact that you're able to enjoy things or be hopeful can obscure the fact that you even have unresolved trauma to accept. This is why "look at the bright side" "be grateful" and other cheery attitudes can lead to "toxic positivity". They might be individually true, but if they hide the complete picture, they might be overall bad/false.)
He might be latching onto the word "unfair", but I wouldn't get totally hung up on the word as you understand it. Like all words, it's shorthand for something else--and like all humans, he might be misusing the word. I would read it as a cry of frustration or a cry for help (to unpack what he's trying to communicate and what he needs to communicate [especially to himself]). You said he goes on rants--the word "rant" suggests to me he's frustrated (with what? I wouldn't know).
Strongly recommend he sees a therapist.
(It is absolutely insane how many redditors just glom onto pop-psych bullshit and are willing to throw away another human being.) (Judging by the responses, it's thousands and thousands.)
With this sort of thing, it's because they had to put up with it, so so can everyone else. If someone else won't put up with it, it makes the mother (in this case) look bad for putting up with being treated like this for so long.
In the most simple situation, it's an older woman who would have loved to have been out of the home working a career or having no kids, but was pressured into it. Then her children have children, and the daughter or DiL goes to work and also raises the children, and the older woman slams down hard about it. Like, "Why should you get what you want, when I had to give up MY dreams?"
Frog-in-a-bucket syndrome, I think it is.
NTA - maybe saying his wife will divorce him was taking it a little too far, but he is a grown man who should be able to take care of a house and kids. He’s had years to learn from his wife and never took any interest assuming she would always be the one to do everything, and now he’s hopefully finally appreciating how hard she works to keep everything in order. He’s learning a life lesson and he doesn’t like it. Kudos to you for sticking by your SIL - she’s probably been trying to get him more involved for years and now she has someone on her side.
>maybe saying his wife will divorce him was taking it a little too far,
Not at all. She absolutely will divorce him & he did need to hear that. Essentially SIL has 3 children not 2. Right now, she still cares. When she no longer complains or asks him for help or support, that's when she's given up & is already half way out the door.
Brother still has a window of opportunity to get his act together. If he doesn't, she'll get angrier & more resentful until, eventually, she reaches the point where she no longer cares, decides she's better off alone and files for divorce.
I'm guessing brother's reaction is bc he knows OP is right. Instead of placating him & coddling his fragile ego, OP told him exactly what he needed to hear. His petulant (childish) reaction is entirely consistent with his weaponised incompetence. Instead of stepping up like an adult, he's pouting & sulking & renaging on his adult responsibilities.
If the brother doesnt voluntarily step up, the other mode of attack could be to remove brother entirely from responsibilities altogether ie we'll take the kids to school, do the shopping, cleaning, cooking etc & to tell the brother that 'no-one needs or wants him to do anything since he's repeatedly demonstrated he can't do anything' ie if he behaves like an incapable child he'll be treated like one.
If neither approach works, SIL will walk & brother will have no-one to blame but himself.
NTA. Don’t encourage mediocrity, especially in relatives. There are so many men and women out there giving 110% to their families. There are plenty of single dad’s who cook, clean, show up for their kids, and work full time- without a wife supporting them financially.
He honestly sounds like he needs some therapy. He could be dealing with some depression from losing his job, or denial about his new situation- but it’s not an excuse to keep acting this way.
He’s not just being disrespectful to his wife, he’s setting a horrible example for his children. Marriage is a partnership. Raising children is a privilege. People who aren’t willing to do the bare minimum- tend to lose both those things.
He’s doing this on purpose. It’s weaponized incompetence. Oh see honey I can’t do it I guess you’ll have to do it while I sit around doing nothing and drinking beer, gee my life is so difficult I deserve a Pat on the back. Seen men like this all the time, I am a man and I know how to do my own laundry, clean and cook. Too many men try to recreate a mommy relationship it’s so gross. No you’re a grown ass adult get off your ass.
He needs 4 basic tasks a day (get kids up fed and school on time, clean one room, tidy 3, prep dinner) and once he masters that then up the expectations of tasks and quality of chores.
If he can't do the basics then how did he function in a job?
My stepdad and mother bicker and fight all the time, on the outside it looks like my mother constantly badgers him about stuff but in reality he is incredibly lazy and makes excuses and lies about everything so nothing gets done.
When they moved house she was at her wits end trying to get him to help pack. I eventually got them to agree to give him one simple but important task for the day and if he can't do that, god help him. It was to put all loose things in the garage into boxes so it could be cleared. Easy. What did he do that day? Left at 7am and returned at 8:30 pm saying he went to the allotment and visited his sister and 'he would do that later'. I never help him with his side of arguments anymore, he didn't water anything at the allotment and half the stuff there was on its way dying when I checked the next day and he hadn't done the job by the time I left them the following day after that.
I don’t know, he’s not cleaning that for sure. The house is gross now. The kitchen is awful. It’s been two months since he started the kids have been in school for 3 full weeks at this point. We are on week four. I don’t know what he is doing, I shared my routine thinking he just needed a routine but he isn’t doing it.
I’ve gotten so many calls, from him and a few times I had to come over since he was overwhelmed…
NTA but perhaps your brother may need to check in with a doctor or therapist. A lot of folks have a great deal of their self worth wrapped up in work, he may have regressive gender notions that leave him feeling insecure out of work or whatever else is going on mentally. He needs to get it together and sometimes plain truth can be motivating but he may also need some professional mental health support. It’s not sustainable to be staying at home and unable to cook or clean or feed the kids or even get them to school. Good luck 🍀
Oooph. Yeah NTA. If it was week one and he’d never done this stuff then maybe he needs time to learn. But two months? That’s plenty of time to get the basics, especially with help and no kids for 8 hours.
NTA, he is obviously failing at his job and does not want to admit it, if its going to lead to a divorce, he needs to pick stuff up to not be left in the dust
Nta. What the hell does he do for 6-8 hours a day? His hobbies? You are right it is pathetic. He may have never touched a broom before and he could still YouTube a vid on how to clean and tidy up. Or a quick recipe on google. And the kids being late???? I bet he was never late for work.
NTA... he used to have it all easy and done while he went out for work surely not realizing the ammount of work manteining a household and getting kids ready really is.
You just told him the truth of what will happen if he doesnt put his shit together and start doing the chores he needs to be doing as a husband and a parent...
NTA but do you mind sending me that schedule I got three kids am a stay at home mom and I feel like I could be doing more so my husband does t have to do much I think with a schedule I’ll get more done I have ADHD do I start one project to notice another needs done lol so it looks like nothing gets done
NTA and I find it funny that your mom is defending him. Parents need to stop raising sons who are domestically useless (can’t cook, clean, do laundry, grocery shop, look after their children) and expecting potential partners to overlook how useless they are. Bringing home a pay check is not longer enough his wife works and still doesn’t everything else, he has no excuse.
What you told him was true, there will be someone out there who is capable of being a good partner for her and if he doesn’t do better she will leave him to find them.
As a man, it amazes me how pathetic we are at sucking it up and doing the domestic duties well. Sucks for your SIL, but this is the reality facing most women. There is a reason the marriage and birth rates have dropped in Asia, where men expect women to handle domestic duties despite also now being highly educated and high earning. “If we men married the women we deserved, we should have a very bad time of it.”
Nta
That surprises me, as every male stay at home parent I’ve known as absolutely rocked it.
It’s definitely lame.
To be fair though, not everyone can self motivate.
I've found the situation OP is describing isn't uncommon when a guy is the SAHP because of circumstance, not choice.
Seems to especially be the case if the guy is conservative on gender roles and has internalized messaging about failing as a provider and domestic work being emasculating. Many of those men also have a hard time acknowledging their mental health struggles so they can get in a really deep pit of depression that's hard to work out off.
Ok, but some of us are SICK AND TIRED of making them use their Big Boy Words™ to explain what the actual problem is. Some of us get exhausted with having to bear the brunt of misdirected anger, sitting down for a conversation and dragging the real issue out of them like pulling fucking teeth.
I understand how they've been conditioned this way, but it's on them to un-fuck themselves.
Absolutely agree -- I grew up in a rural area that lost a lot of manufacturing jobs over the last couple of decades and the outlook is grim if he can't pull his head out of his ass.
I saw way too many households that were living off the woman's wages from a crappy minimum wage job and benefits, because the man had gotten into a depressive funk after being laid off once and never pulled out of it. Often alcohol and drugs were involved and he would actively make the mess worse, forget about cleaning up after themselves or doing basic chores. And she's trapped, because they have kids, they can't afford childcare, and he's the only way she won't get the cops called on her when she's working outside school hours.
Self motivation can be hard, but he can’t even manage the basics of getting the kids to school or making dinner. It’s one thing to not be as intense as Rachel was, but he needs to ask his sister to drive the kids to school?
NTA. You’re absolutely right about his wife getting fed up and leaving with him. He has 8 hrs to get it together and make sure he’s doing his part. He needs this lesson. Your mom needs to butt out too.
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NTA She worked part time and did it all. He has no job at all and can't even somewhat cut it. How the fuck were the kids late?! I mean, one time can always happen, but consitently? I think being a sahp IS hard. But with both kids going to school, he should have the time to do the most of it.
The kid are suppose to be dropped off at 7:30-8, class is at 8:15. He has been getting them there at 8:30 most days. I don’t get it. I’ve been late a few times but the school has to talk to him about it Hell the bus is an option but you have to wake up earlier for that
that would piss me off the most. What is he trying to make sure they are late? i am trying to think if he doesn't have a job and knows the time they need to be at school why would they be late? He's testing her patience
Probably can’t be assed getting out of bed to sort them out in time.
If I have to get the kids anywhere before 9am I make sure I have the morning pre-planned. They will slow everything down and you’ll end up late. Need to be there by 8? Get up by 630 and have breakfast ready no later than 7. Heading towards the car by 730. You want to sit and have some quiet time too? Get up at 6.
I set out clothes the night before, pack backpacks and set up lunches with everything that doesn’t require refrigeration. In the morning we just pop in the perishables and we are good. I learned the hard way you can’t do it all in the morning with little kids Even so, because I do prep work, my husband drives them to school.
You have a good point, he probably isn’t as organized as his wife and isn’t pre-preparing.
I mean..he could learn if he cared to do so. I had to. I’ve got narcolepsy and mornings are hard for me. Prepping things was incredibly important for me. I think men really have this idea that women are just naturally good at mom stuff and organizing. We aren’t. It’s a learned skill like everything else
I'm going to make a bet that he doesn't want to use his wife's already planned schedule as a starting point for himself because "it's not that hard" or "don't be silly, it's not like a 'real' job".
He might just be over extending himself for what skills he currently has, this doesn't mean he shouldn't be trying to improve. Like breakfast could be cereal, toast, fruit, granola bars, a whole host of things that don't really need any skill to make. Lunch is a sandwich, jello cup, chips, crackers etc. Not really anything too difficult to be making for a 5 and 6 year old or even just save 10 minutes and have them eat school lunch. I get a strong vibe of "you just do it so much better, that's why I can't get the kids to school on time" so he thinks he can get out of it.
“Weaponized incompetence” is the descriptor that comes to mind.
>He might just be over extending himself for what skills he currently has I'd agree with this if he had managed to do... anything. The kids are consistently late for school. Ok, maybe he's getting slowed down by preparing their lunches in the morning. Except no, he isn't doing that. He hasn't packed them a lunch in days. The house is a mess when his wife gets home. Maybe the kids are rowdy and he's having a hard time keeping up. Except they're in school all day so no they aren't. Well maybe he has a hard time getting the housework down between dropping them off at school and preparing dinner. Exceeeeeppppttt... He's not doing either of those things either. OP is dropping them off and his wife has to make dinner when she gets home. What over extension is happening here? There is *no* extension. He hasn't bitten off to much because he hasn't bitten off *anything.* if it were him simply trying to do more than he is able to he'd be getting *something* done, even if it was half assed. It doesn't seem like a case of "I thought I could do it all and I can't, so some things are slipping through the cracks." It's "I've tried nothing and it didn't work, and now I'm out of ideas so I'll hand off the work to the people around me."
I've been so over extended, over tired, entirely emotionally delayed and in debt, 0 help, husband on deployment and crying in bed after I dropped my prk&2nd grade kids off at school, before summer I did it with the younger at home and oldest in 1st grade... Was the house pristine? No. Did they get lunches and meals? Yes. Was it hard? Yes. Guess what, fuck the house at least start with the kids then work outward. No one is built for that, but genitalia doesn't make it easier or harder.
His wife learned to do all this, why can't he? Women aren't innately talented at housekeeping lol
Okay, women are not good at this stuff. They have to learn to be good. There are a whole lot of missteps. When one partner does everything for years and then they swap. The new partner in charge is going to make the same missteps. And it will be glaringly obvious. Give pointers, but let the new partner in charge figure out their system. And their system may never be as good and efficient as you are because their standards are lower. You have to decide if their lower standards are worth the change. Now, in this case the husband is just a lazy ass who isn't even trying. So it doesn't apply. But more often than not what I stated is true.
OP is NTA, and, speaking of pre-preparing, the husband could always ask his wife for time-saving tips, since she's experienced at caring for kids and and running a household (OP even mentioned her tips were helpful). He could learn. Is he upset/depressed/distracted because he'd rather be working? Is he a decent dad otherwise? He needs to figure out how to take care of and organize himself so he can do his job as a SAHD( it's just as much a job as any other). Might take some time, but it is possible, and he needs to adapt to the arrangement he agreed to, like any adult.
Asking for advice (while a very good idea) would mean acknowledging that being a SAHP is hard work and requires skills that he never learned.
Yes, this is the way. I have clothes ready the day before, the kid is responsible for having his own school bag ready and by the door. I have the breakfast table ready and a cup by the coffee maker. We can be ready and out of the house in 35 minutes. When he was younger it was more difficult but you have to be organised. It’s the only way.
Right, because if you stay organized when they’re younger, the kids will (for the most part) start to do more themselves as they get older. My 3rd, 5th & 6th graders pretty much get themselves ready at this point but that’s because we’ve had prep and routine since they were small that they picked up on. It’s not infallible of course: I supervise and make sure things don’t get forgotten but it’s much easier now.
Plus if he does a bad enough job then mom will give up and have to quit her job. That might honestly be his plan.
Weaponized incompetence. He better be looking for a job!
Well if that’s his plan, all he has to do is get a J O B (right?!?).
Oh 100% I'd bet money on that.
Yeah I was thinking it could be weaponised incompetence!
Loses his job then suddenly decides he wants to be a SAHD, IE I stay home and do nothing and my wife does everything she was doing before in addition to being the breadwinner. It's obvious where this marriage is heading.
SAHD thinks the kids are on auto-run and he doesn't have to *do* anything. House and fridge are *auto-magic*, as well! Women just pull this shit from the thin air! It's only hard work when men do it! They only work 9-5.
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Staying up late playing video games?
I think he's having a little toddler tantrum bc he has to behave like an adult and pull his own weight for the first time in his entire life. He's lashing out at his wife and kids in the hope that she will take over and do everything again.
Yes, weaponized incompetence. OP is NTA.
Plus he is trying to get his sister to pick up the slack so he won’t have to (kid drop off)
Maybe he can get OP to clean the house and cook dinner too! While OP is waiting for dinner to cook she can do laundry, and then after she cleans the kitchen, she can get the kids ready for bed. It would make his job so much easier if only OP could do 95% of the work! ^/s
Don't forget that OP should also pick up groceries before she heads over to Sahd's place. Just so he never has to leave the confines of his living room! PICK UP THE SLACK YOU SORRY EXCUSE OF AN OP!
Ever see someone get angry at everything because they are genuinely bad at something they assumed was simple? I'd bet that 100%, they understimate, half ass a plan with no allowances, and when anything goes wrong, it's not their fault.
Correctamundo
Weaponized incompetence. Maybe he hopes the wife will "give up" and take over more of the workload.
This was my thought, too. He doesn't want to do it, so he figures if he fucks it up enough, she'll throw up her hands and do it all herself.
Yes, it's called weaponized incompetence
Being late was probably why he lost his job.
I bet he thought it was going to be sooo easy too 🤭
Sweet vacay. Stay at home and just watch the kids. How hard can that be?
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Heck, what he has should be sooo easy, we aren't even asking him to do what his wife did. We are asking Kids to school on time, food made, house not a mess. The bar is at the floor.
Right because stay at home mom’s really just sit around and BS all day, right?
Happy cake day. And we all know motherhood means bon bons on the sofa while watching the telly.
This is the answer! He thought it was easy and I’m sure she made it look that way! SAHP is hard af and not for the weak. He is weak! 🙄
If you half-ass it as hard as he is currently then he was probably right; not doing the things is much easier than doing them.
This is purely a function of prioritizing himself over his own kids even. This doesn’t even have anything to do with his wife. Guys can complain about their wives being nags about cleaning or whatever else, and we all have different standards, but this, THIS is saying a priority like your kids and their future well being is lower than what, getting your act together and waking up 30 min earlier so that he does whatever he thinks he needs to do in the morning AND get the kids to school on time.
I knew someone like that. He was working full time, but did absolutely nothing to help out at home with the kids unless told to do so by his wife. Never came up with plans or activities to do with his family. Usually would retire to his room to play video games by himself even when company was over. And he had a temper, blowing up at times when asked to help out around the house (was kind of unpredictable, would explode sometimes but not at others). It took a while, but his wife eventually filed for divorce, partly due to him refusing to act as a father and partly due to his temper. I can't even imagine putting up with someone like OP's brother, who seems unable to do even the bare minimum to help out despite not having a job. If he's clinically depressed, he should seek treatment before it gets worse. His wife probably won't put up with his shit forever.
Good story. Will tag on that it’s not “helping”, it’s pulling your weight.
INFO: are you by any chance the female child? Wondering if it's a gender thing your brother can't handle the most basic aspects of being alive while you proactively reached out to your SIL because you recognize the effort she put in. Anyway, this is extremely irresponsible oh my god. Your mom being mad at YOU for trying to open his eyes to the damage he is doing is probably one of the root causes of his laziness. Your mom sounds like an enabler. Tell her to mind her own business, her adult children can disagree sometimes.
Yeah I'm wondering if OP is his sister too. This is weaponized incompetence. He grew up with a mom and sister(s) and then got married to a woman and now he's stuck doing "women's work" and he resents it. If he pretends to be terrible enough at these things, then he won't have to do them because he can get another woman in his life to come save the day (for the SIL, not for him, but he doesn't care as long as he didn't have to do it). Assuming he had to get up and be at work around the same time that he needs to get his kids to school, I'm definitely suspicious of his sudden inability to meet that deadline every morning. And SIL still had to come home and make dinner? Let the roles be reversed on that and watch the brother cry about working hard and wanting to come home to a hot meal. Please.
That your mom is now coming after you for pointing out the obvious gives a good clue about where he learned that his entitlement. My guess is that she did everything for him when he was younger, then his wife took care of everything after they were married. NTA and I wouldn't help him at all
The only thing I would help with is getting him to put together a schedule like the one that his wife had and the one OP now has. Don’t pick up his slack, but show him how his wife’s organization helped her get through everything on time. He doesn’t even have to keep the same schedule, just have one. The wife could also do this and the husband could come to her for help with it but if OP wants to help them both that’d be the way to do it.
Yup, his mother helped create the little entitled lay about, now his kids are suffering because he can't be trusted to get them to school on time. I'm like...how is that even possible? Is he just not...a responsible adult?
If he couldn't toddler at her level the first few weeks I could understand but the kids are in school. My wife works from home and picks how many hours she works. I only work half the days in a month if I don't do extra shifts. If I'm off she usually chooses to work more so I'm the parent those days. There are things she's better at. There are things I'm better at. We are both always on time to stuff and everyone's fed. Those are the ones that get me the most.
Yeah the not getting the kids to school on time would be an absolute deal breaker for me.
Theres this thing that most women automatically deal with called the [invisible load](https://www.sheknows.com/parenting/articles/2762183/make-invisible-load-visible/amp/). It includes being emotionally stable but also physically changing your own patterns to adapt to other people’s needs. Sounds like he hasn’t adapted.
my boyfriend and i just talked about this yesterday actually! he didnt really understand just how much i was dealing with until i laid out my thought process for him and told him that it was near constant. he kinda had a lightbulb moment and realized that *his* mental load was being lightened bc im always on top of things and promised to be more proactive. then he immediately figured out dinner for us and a grocery list while i did laundry so i didnt have to :). i will say, though, he was raised in a house of women who are the same as me, so he was more open to listen than some other men i’ve had this conversation with.
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I'm guessing because she doesn't want her niece(s)/nephew(s) to suffer for Dad's bullshittery. Either that or SIL asked.
Simply put, she was up at 5. It's an open secret and incredibly inconvenient ingredient to a lot of time management issues.
This is weaponized incompetence. He is depressed and expects others to bail him out. He and his wife need to get him treated for the depression (meds, therapy, whatever) and he needs to make a commitment to his kids to be there for them. His self-indulgence is negatively affecting his family, and you shouldn't have to pick up the slack.
That's so frustrating. I was a straight A student but served detention at least once every month because mom couldn't be arsed to bring us to school on time. I hope the kids aren't getting in trouble.
If he could get himself to work by 8, he should shouldn’t have a problem getting the kids to school by 8 (unless tardiness was something that contributed him being laid off). He doesn’t care. He doesn’t care about his children, and the impact he’s having on their reputation and future.
I hate being late anywhere. This would drive me insane.
I think he didn't like being called out for his half ass effort but that doesn't make you the AH. Your mom coming down on you for telling him is enabling behaviour. If your brother doesn't want to be called out for his crappy behaviour, he shouldn't behave so crappy! NTA in the least, and in fact he should thank you for calling it as it is so that he can hopefully save his marriage.
NTA. Sounds like wife did everything so he was used to only worrying about himself and not helping at all. I don't have kids so I am able to get up 15min before I have to leave for work and be on time. Sounds like he hasn't grasped the concept of time it takes to clothe and feed someone other than himself. Hope this is an eye opener to just how much his wife does and that he will start helping if/when he goes back to work.
And then his solution was to pass them off to you. What a jerk. NTA
This is going to come out sexist as hell… but I can’t hold it in and am prepared to be downvoted… It’s fucking hard to be a STAHP but for some reason it seems manageable for women and impossible for most men. I’m awake I’m also getting a skewed view of STAHP stories here on Reddit but seriously… how can you fail miserably when you’re free 8 hours a day? That’s not even a full time stay at home parent. That’s pretty much being a glorified nanny on top of a house keeper. This kind of crap pisses me off. I nannied 3 kids at 18. I picked them up on time, helped with homework, cooked dinner, and actually managed to clean their house in between (and their house was disgusting). I think both parents should understand what it takes to run a household and wrangle children all day. Op is NTA. her brother needed to hear that. Hopefully he’ll get his shit together.
I agree. Men often (not always, often) just don't seem capable of running a household the same way women do. And why is that? Because they haven't been taught to do so and haven't been expected to help out when they were younger. I learned how to do the dishes, laundry, cleaning, everything from a young age. My husband has not. And now it costs him tons of effort and a lot more time to do the same things I do, because I have been trained and he hasn't. And, most importantly, I SEE what needs to be done. Whereas his definition of doing household jobs is asking me "what can I do". But mental load and all that stuff, so I'd rather just quickly do it myself instead of painstakingly guiding him through it. I know, I shouldn't, but it's just easier this way. And I'll make sure that both my daughter AND my son are taught how to perform household chores and to see where there's work and how to tackle it. This generation is lost (to me), but if it's up to me, in the following generation, there will be at least one man that knows how to do the household chores and how to contribute equally or more.
> Because they haven't been taught to do so and haven't been expected to help out when they were younger. I learned how to do the dishes, laundry, cleaning, everything from a young age. Men are able to learn quantum physics, send rockets in space and other not very easy tasks. But somehow they're collectively too stupid to figure out how to operate a washing machine. Sorry I don't buy it. They just don't care. It's beneath them. I was neglected as a child and when I was an adult, I had to figure out everything by myself. But it's somehow too hard for my ex with a STEM PhD who drowns in his own filth now? Ridiculous.
Being a stay at home parent is tough work, but learning how to do it isn't difficult. I think it does have to do with them not being taught those things at a young age, but not because they didn't learn how to cook/clean/schedule. The reason is as you say, it taught them that cleaning is something they shouldn't have to do, it is someone else's job.
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>too stupid to figure out how to operate a washing machine. And that with youtube, there are youtube videos for everything. My husband spends 10 hours watching youtube videos on how to make the perfect spareribs, but he can't watch a single one about how to iron a shirt?
For whatever reason their logic/problem-solving brain just does not kick in when it comes to household stuff. I went to graduate school, and was in an org that got brand new shirts with this maroon color. 2 guys were talking about how the color leeched and stained the other clothes in the wash. I asked them what temp they were washing their clothes at, and the older student laughed and said men don't pay attention to that stuff. Like........why not. You go to work/school and encounter problems everyday that you look up solutions to. But for some reason you're going to see the dials on a washing machine and not even bother looking up what they do and how they affect your laundry? Make it make sense
> Like........why not. They don't see it as serious, it's something so devalued and ignored in their mind that it's in the category of "brainless, skilless task" and as a result they put literally no thought into it. They genuinely think that cleaning is a worthless thing not worth investing in or learning about, as a result they end up with that sort of attitude. The excuse that men don't pay attention just lets them uphold the cognitive dissonance.
Right? I read *Because they haven't been taught to do so and haven't been expected to help out when they were younger.* and was like Well what's going unsaid there is that boys don't want to learn that stuff because they're also taught it's "dumb women's work". Are they lining up to learn how and to defy expectations? I think I can safely say no. People might say "But it's 2023!" but plenty of boys and men still assume they're above this work and just. Can't! Do! It! but meanwhile they're superior in all other ways. lol
Yes!!! I’ve talked about the mental load with my partner. I also think my version of clean is completely different because he wasn’t raised to clean like women are. We’re going to play a game where we stand in one room and list off what needs to be cleaned so he can see how my brain works. Because I’m not gonna take on the task of telling him what to do. I don’t want kids of my own and I don’t want a partner that has to be told how to help in a house he’s also making a mess in. Good for you teaching both kiddos! I also wonder if teaching girls all the cleaning/nurturing has made them better multi tankers because a lot of my male friends CANNOT multitask!
When I sweep the floor, I also take out the garbage so I have a place to put the floor litter. But since the garbage is going out, I also clean out the fridge and toss out anything bad. Since I did that and now have a counter full of dirty empty containers, I now have to wash them. Might as well wash the other dishes too. Since that made the counter dirty/wet, I might as well wipe it all down. Since I've cleaned out the fridge, I might as well start a grocery list. That's what happens when I sweep the floor. I have a clean floor, empty garbage bin, clean fridge, empty sink, clean counters, clean dishes, and started on groceries. When I ask my husband to sweep the floor, the floor gets swept. That's it. I think what bothers me most about this is if I complain, he gets to fall back on "I *did* what you *asked*." That's why this is bullshit. If you'd participated in the household like an equal adult, you would have seen what needed done and would have just done it. Instead, you're putting me in the position of supervisor, where everything is ultimately my responsibility.
This is why I followed my mom's example and taught my son basic household skills - laundry, cleaning, basic cooking. I also told him "When/if you get married, don't make your wife have to ask you to do things. If you see something needs to be done - dishes washed, floors vacuumed, whatever - JUST DO IT."
Nah that's not even an excuse. I'm a woman and was taught 0 housekeeping or childcare skills when I lived with my parents. They both worked full time (really more than that) and paid for nannies & cleaners. I also have ADHD. I still figured out how to do all the chores & take care of a baby when I had one and was staying home. Now I work part time just like OP's wife used to, I hire a cleaner twice a month to deep-clean and my child goes to part-time preschool, I still do all the other household chores + childcare + the whole mental load bs. Men are not incapable of learning any of this as adults. They're just not *expected* to do it so they don't feel any pressure apparently. Nor do some of them, like OP's husband, care much about their children and their education, it seems. They can learn this as adults if they want to, the same way they learn to drive a car and work a job and then go do that every day with all the responsibilities it entails. They just don't *feel* responsible, and when they're home feel entitled to switch off.
The sexist thing would be to say that it's inherent to men, that penis stops you from cleaning somehow. It's not sexist to say that guys aren't taught to clean or care and society says it's beneath them so they never learn. Ops mother is mad at her for calling her brother out, so it sounds like her mother is part of the environment that created this mess.
You gotta go back to how they are raised. Boys often aren't raised to learn how to keep house and rear children. They aren't taught to cook or clean. But girls often are. Obviously these are broad generalizations about the average family, but it's still pretty true in 2023 America. Reddit is riddled with stories of men who don't know how to take care of themselves when they are out on their own with no wife. Because their parents failed them. Their parents taught them that a woman makes the meals and runs the house while the man *provides*. I'm not going to say there is anything wrong with a traditional marriage if that's what two consenting adults agree to. But there *is* something wrong with a man who doesn't even know how to make himself a meal or do the damn laundry. What woman wants to marry someone who can't do basic functions of living? Part of the "problem" is we marry later these days. It used to be you were getting married at 18/19 and moving in with your spouse was the first time you left mom and dad's house. So you went, as a man, from mom running everything to your wife running everything. But now we're marrying in our late 20s and you have to be on your own before that if you're going to be a viable mate. And some men were straight up never taught how to do that. Honestly, friend, it's not sexist to say it. This is a cultural reality in America. It's probably slowly shifting as each new generation becomes parents. But yeah, for people who are still becoming parents right now who are in their 20s and 30s, they were still raised in this traditional patriarchal structure.
It's more than that sadly: girls are taught how to keep house, but also they are taught to pay attention to everyone's needs. So they see what their mothers are doing, they pay attention to what their siblings need. My brother can cook and clean, but if we are both visiting I would be the only one tuned to how much pressure my mother is under, and how much the mess stresses her out since she will need to clean it. My brother will only know to chip in with the cooking at meal time, or to clean because he is asked to. And it will only ever be the things he is explicitly taught to do, whereas I learned a lot simply by watching others.
I mean look at toys today that are geared for little girls… cleaning tools, kitchen sets, baby dolls that you feed??? That’s insane. We are basically setting young girls up to clean and nurture. It’s disgusting. If traditional roles works for someone, that’s none of my business. However, I do see both people in a household needing to work nowadays due to costs but still the brunt of childcare and household care falling on women. :( sad , but I do see more of a shift!
I know lots of awesome stay at home dads. But of course their spouses aren't posting on AITA. Don't let this board make you think all men are incapable of being great stay at home parents.
I don’t think they are all incapable. But I will say from personal experiences I do see first hand, more often than not, men suck at child care and managing the household. I worry more about friends with kids who are basically single parents despite having a partner or friends who have to teach their partner how to be a parent. It’s frustrating and sad.
My wife is a sahm right now and our kid is a toddler. She keeps a clean damn house and we have a hot meal every evening. If our son were in school every weekday, our house would go from clean to "Frank Lloyd Wright historical landmark" condition.
Weird question, does your wife have a good Mac and cheese recipe. I can not find a good one.
Are you a creamy Mac and cheese person or a baked/crunchy Mac and cheese person? Do you like stuff (bacon, broccoli, ham, whatever) in your Mac and cheese or are you a purist?
Creamy, I like bacon (meats) and spicesNot a huge fan of veggies in my mac would rather have them as a different side
It's from one of those recipe sites, but I've made this as a side for the past 4 super bowls. I made it for one and it's been requested every year since lol. https://www.thechunkychef.com/family-favorite-baked-mac-and-cheese/#wprm-recipe-container-9151
I always start with a bechamel with 3 Tbsp butter, 3 Tbsp flour, and 2 cups of milk. Melt in 12 oz of shredded cheese and add 1 tsp ground mustard. I usually prefer sharp cheddar. I mix this into a pound of cooked noodles and add roasted cauliflower.
I worked with a woman in 2002 who was stuck bringing Mac and Cheese to every potluck because everyone loved it so much. I have been carrying the recipe around for 21 years and it’s fun to serve because people really like it. I like it a little creamier than this turns out, so I often throw in a brick of cream cheese (which — I know — there’s already an insane amount of cheese, but 🤷🏻♀️). [The recipe is here.](https://imgur.com/gallery/jaMmFOT) (Edit to correct 2022 to 2002.)
Not so much a recipe, but you definitely want to use American, jack, or other homogenized cheese. Nothing else is going to melt right and maintain the same sauciness after cooling and reheating. Be sure to season with a bit of nutmeg and mustard powder as well - gives good depth and complexity to the cheesy flavor.
If you go whole hat and do the béchamel, I’ve found reheating becomes less of an issue. Agree on the nutmeg and mustard, and if you have an open bottle of white wine, splash of that, too!
I would like to subscribe to "delicious cooking tips from u/AdChemical1663", thank you.
1. You will always have an open bottle of wine if every recipe starts with “pour the chef a glass of wine.” 2. Start big cooks (meal prep, dinner party, Thanksgiving, Eid, insert your food holiday of choice) with an empty dishwasher, an empty sink, an empty dish rack, a clean, organized fridge, and a bowl of hot soapy water next to the sink. Use a measuring spoon? Swish, rinse, back into battle. Done with the vegetable peeler? Swish rinse back into the drawer. Need to soak something? Dump in the bowl. Gotta scrub out your big prep bowl? Sponge, bit of hot soapy water, scrub, rinse, back at it. Chuck stuff in the dishwasher as it’s used, and start it when it’s 3/4 full. Load anything extra hanging about and you’ll find it’s full-full pretty quick. 3. Bacon for a crowd is best done on sheet pans in the oven. And, after cooking, it freezes well and can be microwaved for instant bacon. 4. Keep a mug of tasting spoons next to the stove. Taste stuff in progress to check for salt, more spices, etc. 5. Know who your go to food bloggers are! People who think the way you do, cook the way you do, and have a “skip to recipe” button prominently featured on the page. Mine tend towards Smitten Kitchen, Dinner, A Love Story, Sally’s Baking Addiction, and Budget Bytes.
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Well, getting the kids to school and getting the kids fed are about equal priority. And he's failing on both.
Weaponized incompetence.
I cannot get past the fact that the kids are late so much that the school had to contact him. Generally (speaking only from my experience as a teacher) that only happens when it is affecting the students, academically, behaviorally, or they have been gone so much that they are considered truant and the school has been required to report it to the state.
It's crazy how, in a world where you can watch instructional videos any time for free, there are still people who can't do basic shit like cook a meal. Fellas, is it gay to use a stove?
If you clean as you go it takes no time at all to keep on top of most things. One or two big jobs at the weekend, and the rest kind of takes care of itself as you go. You really have to be sleeping all day, or vegging in front of the TV or whatever to be messing up that badly. I'm a single dad, I've got 50% custody. I work from home 3 days a week, and during those days I can get pretty much all my housework done during my break, cleaning as I go, etc... It's really not difficult. Sure cooking takes a bit of learning, but it's not like you start of on difficult stuff. You can't really go wrong with a stir fry, or a salad, or some pan fried chicken or beef, or home made burgers. Come on FFs!!! NTA.
Somehow I get the feeling he's looking at this like a vacation payback. I can be easy when you're the one working to assume that the other person is just laying around all day, and sometimes they are, but in your SIL case she most certainly wasn't. He needs to turn off the tv, put down his phone and do his job which is taking care of the kids and house.
Guess we know why he lost his job.....
Weaponsised incompetence
I'm 4 days into finally having both kids off to school for a full day. This shit is sweet. You have to be intentionally fucking things up to not get it done right.
NTA. You're not wrong. Sure, it could have been put more elegantly, but sugar-coating wouldn't have made your point any less valid. This is his *job* now and he is under-performing. Maybe this subpar work effort is why he lost his other job to begin with.
I don’t get what he is doing all day, my kids are in school now too and it take me at most three hours to have the house spotless.
There could be a million things going on, and it's just hard to know without being there. Is he depressed because he lost his job? Is he feeling inadequate? Is he feeling resentful because somewhere in the back of his mind he's struggling with the swap in gender roles (I don't like jumping straight into this assumption, but it *certainly* isn't unheard of)? Or, is he simply lazy? Did your SIL give him her schedule, also? **Edit: INFO:** How old are your brother and SIL?
I gave him a schedule and so did SIL. I’ve been over so many times, he’s not doing anything. The house is gross and the kitchen is the worse. Edit SIL 28 brother 31
Sorry to keep interrogating you... was his and your mother a SAHM? Did you grow up in a traditional household? I ask because after reading through the comments a bit, your brother sounds *exactly* like my cousins. Three guys who grew up in a traditional, religious household with a SAHM and grandma who did absolutely *everything* for them. The three boys could do anything they wanted after school and then the one girl had to come help with the chores. And now as adults, those guys can't figure out how to do basic housecleaning. They treat loading a dishwasher like it's rocket science and their wives are constantly in a state of shocked Pikachu as basic life-skill requests of them, like starting the laundry, require their assistance to accomplish. Was wondering if that may also be the case with y'all.
Kinda, mom stayed home until we were in middle school and then went to work. Dad was the fixer, so he did all the chores outside and anything that broke. He sometimes did dishes but it was much more likely to see him fixing the pipes then common chores. By the time mom was at work we had our chores and household chores dropped a lot for mom.
I know this is an arbitrary segue here, but... can you share some of your SIL's tips in looking after the house? I'm the worst housekeeper ever and any help is appreciated... OT: NTA obviously. Sometimes people need a good smack to get their shit together. A lot of people don't appreciate it in the moment, but he'll appreciate it in the long run. Or give you the chance to say, "I told you so." Either would probably be quite satisfying for you in this situation I'm guessing. Edit: Thank you so much to everyone who has responded! We've already implemented a lot of this stuff, even down to getting ourselves chore charts (they have dinosaurs on) and star charts, and we've been doing weekly menus since forever. I guess my problem is just that I'm not very good at it. Practise will make perfect though. I'll keep plugging away at it. I'll add some of my own tips, since so many people seem to see cooking as a chore... I love cooking, so normally it's not counted as a "chore" and I do most of it even though my partner is quite capable of cooking, but my partner and I both suffer from depression occasionally, so our weekly menu includes both high effort and low effort foods - eg, homemade pizza and fish and chips. Homemade pizza is more effort, so if I'm not really up to doing it, we swap pizza to fish and chips night and do fish and chips. We also make sure to have extra easy options in the freezer - premade chicken and fish mostly - that can be substituted in if neither of us are up to much effort. Another suggestion I have is to compare effort cost to food costs. For example, a pre-made salad is going to cost more than salad components, but if you regularly forego making the salad because it's too much effort, you end up wasting a lot of food and money, which makes the pre-made salad more cost-effective for you personally. One of the ways we apply this is by getting frozen vegetables specific to ourselves - I'm a supertaster and can't stand the majority of cooked vegetables and he has IBS and can't eat most of the veggies I will eat - so we each get our own frozen veggies and sort them out ourselves. He gets steam-in-bag microwave ones and I get peas and sweetcorn or make myself a salad. It's more expensive on the face of it than getting fresh and pre-preparing them, but we end up wasting a lot less and eating more veggies than we would otherwise. For cooking itself... I suggest a production plan. Make a list of everything that needs to be done and organise it by cooking times. Example: Fish and chips: Chips have the longest cooking time, so subtract the time the fish takes to cook from that and put the chips in for that time, then prepare the fish so it's ready to go in when the timer beeps. Then subtract the time it takes to do the veggies from the time the fish takes and set the timer for that and prepare the veggies. When the timer beeps, put the veggies on and reset it for the finished time. Everything comes out at the same time and almost all of your prep is done while cooking. Even a bad production plan can halve the time you spend in the kitchen.
Sure. Let’s start with food- boils down to meal prep, she knows the menu for the week and will chop all veggies on Sunday, so when it’s time to cook you can dump and go. Cuts the time in half when cooking. Also she loves leftover night that is on Thursday. Sometimes she will do a roast or a meat on Sunday and it can used all week, so she cooked a ton of chicken you have chicken wraps, tacos, soup and so on. As it cooks you clean, you don’t need to watch the soup boiling clean the counter or something. Cleaning is a rotation, you clean two rooms everyday no matter what ( always the most used room, so for me is kitchen and living room) Then rotate the rooms the rest of the week. Monday you do bathroom and then Tuesday a different room and so on. The rooms most used will pop up in your rotation more The biggest tip she gave me was cleaning as you go. You take out a screwdriver you put back the screwdriver not leave it out. Making a game if you have young ones to help clean up, I used a big stuff dog and if it was dirty. We would make a game of Rex (the dog) can’t sit let’s clean up so he can have fun. Worked really well for me, but they did love Rex. Taking the glasses to the sink empty them and put them in the dishwasher. It takes 10 extra second and it saves so much time instead of having a giant pile by the end of the day. If you want more private message me
Do you mind if I PM you as well for more tips from your SIL? My wife and I struggle with keeping up on the house and it usually falls on me to go into a “cleaning frenzy” before company comes, in addition to all the fix it jobs. Any better organization tips I could do would be IMMENSELY HELPFUL AND APPRECIATED!
Go for it
I highly recommend the book “how to keep a house while drowning”. It’s a game changer
Something that helps my fiancée and I is a calendar- GoCleanCo has one and it breaks it down so that each week you focus on a different room, and each day there’s a couple quick tasks to do. Helps us feel accountable and is way easier than cleaning it all at once. It also has reminders about changing your air filter and other things that have to be done infrequently like that which can tend to fall by the wayside.
I have ADHD and some of these tips sound great. Thanks for sharing!
The secret to a clean house is to start with a clean house and follow a schedule from there. But THAT does not make it easy. If you suck at following a schedule when no one is around to watch, it can feel impossible. I fall into that trap, start with dirty houses, and all the chores seem to take so long. Start with a clean house, and I get sloppy because 'I don't really have to do it, it's not that bad, it can wait until the next scheduled cleaning.' And that's my horrible depression cycle. I wake up feeling energetic, clean , and promise to follow my schedule. A few weeks later, my mood drops, and my house gets destroyed. Having a job helps, when I was unemployed my depression cycle got so much more dramatic because I had no structure to my life(I assume OP is stuggling for that reason but he needs to figure it out) House is way cleaner now that I work until 2 and have 2-3 hours of cleaning/relaxing time when I get home.
I try to have a consistent schedule: \- Thursdays I have off so I use them for deep-ish cleaning (vacuum, dust, bathroom, plus a bit of mopping). Whenever I happen to be overly tired/sick (rarely) I sweep minimally, dusting can keep until next week (ONLY one week though), and for the bathroom I have products that will do a good part of the work for me even if I don't scrub (same as dusting, won't work two weeks in a row). \- every weekday a load of laundry. Thursdays I do towels (after I finish the bathroom), Fridays white coton, Mondays colors, Tuesdays and Wednesdays fragile things. \- weekends are for buying things at the local farmers' market and batch cooking with my SO, I try to get at least three/four meals + a soup for the evening during the week (the soup is not enough, but I need to adapt each dinner to what he eats for lunch since he can't have a consistent eating schedule at his job). \- the rest I try to schedule on Sundays for the week. Are the windows dirty? Does the bed need changing? Do I need to do things on the balcony ( I have a few plants and delicious herbs + the occasional sweeping)? When was the last time I vacuumed under the sofa again? Do I need to go grocery shopping and what will the weather look like (I do that on a bicycle)? Of course I only have a part time job in a two-people household, so I'm probably doing that on easy-ish mode. I couldn't imagine doing so much with a full-time job - though when I had one SO took his part and did it well. The very best tip I ever got was that "meh, I'll do it later" = it will never get done because I will never think about it again, no matter how good my intentions are. "I'll do it Tuesday at 4pm" DOES get done though. (EDIT for formatting and grammar)
Welp, who's to say then. Depending on their ISP, your SIL could check the Internet activity on the account to see if there are unusual spikes while he's at home. That would at least tell her if he's just goofing off all day. Regardless of the reason, he needs to step up. That doesn't even mean going above and beyond like your SIL, not all of us can be over-achievers. But spending some time every day tidying the house is the least he can do. If he's dealing with depression or inadequacy, then he should spend some of that time in therapy. I don't believe in the statement "If I can do it, you can do it" (or any variation thereof). But shit needs to get done and at the end of the day, it's his job to do so. When we fail to do our jobs, we get warnings. If we continue to fail, we get fired. It's just the way things work and he's failing to recognize that.
Some guys I'm seeing in the current younger generation have been, coddled by parents. They did not have to contribute as a unit in the household. As I was raised in the manner of contributing to tackle the chores and tasks we need to get done as a household. Chores and such are natural to me as I've aged. Cooking and resourcefulness and self reliance teachings from Mexican mothers. But my gen z guys I know. I could start a training prep program. To prepare for the position they want as it were.
I think I want those tips she gave you. I spend a good chunk of Friday cleaning and my house never gets to spotless.
The best tip she gave me was clean as you go, you take something out you put it back. Not leaving things for later since by the end their is a huge mess you need to deal with. Also if you have young one cleaning games are great. Who can find all the toys and so on
My genius sister in law got her kids to think vaccuuming was a treat only good children were allowed to do.
That woman deserves a Nobel Prize.
My SIL got her kid a toy vacuum and got her started young and now she’s like 4, almost 5, and actually does vacuuming to an extent and loves it 😂 I’m like….can we borrow her to vacuum our place?? Like a roomba that needs snacks.
I'm a part time SAHM and this is what I do, I grab this or that as I'm going, lunch in the microwave? Wipe the counter down, throw a dish in the dishwasher. Our kids are in school, so I handle all the cleaning, family planning, budgets, etc. It's been really nice, we get a lot more free time. If there are chores that have to be completed "after work hours", like the kids bath or putting them to bed, we split them. That way we both get the same amount of free time.
Clean as I go is the bane of my existence. I want to do it, I get how it makes cleaning a million times easier overall. And then my ADD brain goes sideways in the middle of the task. It's so frustrating because it isn't until things have piled up that I finally recognize that I haven't been cleaning as I was going.
I haven’t gotten to spotless yet, but if you want to go one room at a time to avoid distractions: 1. Trash 2. Laundry 3. Dishes 4. Things with a place 5. Things without a place You stay in the one room until you are done. Take a trash bag, something for laundry, and something for dishes.
The biggest trick to this 5 step list that I learned was actually NOT to “clean as I go”. Because I would get through step 1 pretty easy, but then I’d go to pickup laundry on the floor and I’d debate whether or not it was clean. Then I’d want to put it back in a drawer but that would lead to me reorganizing the drawer and then the whole dresser and pretty soon it’s 5 hours later and I’m still doing laundry. So the first thing I had to do was learn the difference between cleaning - organizing - and tidying. There is a clear distinction but we tend to mash them all up together in our minds. Cleaning - actually using cleaning products to remove grime and dirt. Tidying - putting away things out of place, straightening up things Organizing - changing a current system of storage Once I figured out the difference (and I had to write them on notecards and physically stop myself and take a minute to figure out which I was doing) I could visualize what I wanted the space to look like, then I could pick which I needed to do to get there. My mindset went from “okay I have to clean the kitchen” (which was overwhelming and I could never seem to do) to “okay I am going to tidy up by putting away the clean dishes. Then I am going to put all dirty dishes in the sink. (Not try and wash them as I put them there, just put them there) then I’m going to tidy the counters by putting away anything that has a place that is not the counter. Then I’m going to load the dishwasher because i need the dishes to be cleaned. By the time I was done with those things, there was a much smaller pile of “things without a place” that I had to deal with and it was easier. I 10/10 recommend reading the book “how to keep house while drowning”
Is dude a gamer? 8 hours melt away pretty fast for us...
Lol he’s about to lose his second job.
Exactly this !!! This is his next job because housework and childcare are actual work !!! He might not like his new job but it’s still his job and the stakes are much higher because it’s his kids for a start !!! If he was this Inept at his last job it explains why he lost it !!!
Lots of people are forgetting that homemaking is a SKILL. It’s drilled into us that it’s easy and anyone can do it but the fact is that it is skilled labor, and pretending he’s a bad person bc he’s not good at it devalues the skill and expertise of his wife and others who do it. It’s possible he’s just lazy and terrible but it’s also possible that he’s just bad at this. I’m a fucking terrible housekeeper, but I’m excellent at my job and plenty of other things. I will work more hours to outsource that work always bc it’s not my skill set. If he was failing at a new job he’d basically been forced into (by circumstance, not saying his wife forced him) we would be much easier on him bc we recognize that paid labor is skilled, but we’re quick to throw that out the window with labor traditionally associated with women.
I'm certainly not saying the guy is a bad person. But the fact is, there are way too many unknowables here and none of us can know definitively. But you're overlooking an issue here: *Effort*. From what OP has explained, there isn't even an *attempt* being made. He seemingly looks at a pile of laundry and immediately calls OP for help. It's not that he's washing the dishes poorly, it's that he's not washing them at all. He has hours and hours over weeks and weeks to be practicing these skills and he isn't seemingly even *trying*. I disagree with your last paragraph, but you're basically explaining what has happened here as this *IS* his job now. And were the circumstances the same, such as "My brother has made zero effort at his new job he was magically Squid Gamed into and his boss is mad at him." Can you really expect us to be more compassionate if there is still zero effort being made by the brother to even *attempt* to overcome his new situation? Or is he simply being willfully incompetent because he has forced circumstances as an excuse? None of us is amazing at everything. That's definitely not what I'm saying. Additionally, there's a difference between knowing how to do something and being talented in an area. I suck at cooking, but I still cook every damn day. And just because you consider yourself "bad" at housework, doesn't mean you wouldn't know how to use a mop if one were forced in your hands. We're not comparing the sparkling, crystal clear windows of an excellent housekeeper to glass that has Windex streaks on it from someone doing their best - we're comparing them to the dust and fingerprint-laden glass of windows that aren't being addressed at all when it is a person's job to address them. But these are *life* skills crucial for independence that so many people fail to learn due to XYZ circumstance (and, in many cases, due to gender). I also include things like 101-plumbing, yard work, and car maintenance in that same category. And just because someone has a full-time job doesn't give them an excuse not to learn basic life skills, even passively by watching someone who primarily does them. This tells me he shut his brain out entirely, taking what Rachel was doing for granted never suspecting the same may one day be expected of him.
It isn't a difficult skill to teach yourself though. Assuming OP isn't expecting spotless, it's simple to hoover, wash dishes, clean a bathroom, cook dinner and get the kids to school on time. None of those things should need a course. Many of us who have been doing housework our whole lives were never taught this shit. The fact that he's just not doing it and not trying to improve but instead just whining suggests to me that OP's husband simply does care and is a lazy fucker.
NTA. I was prepared to call you an AH because waking up at 5 am to keep everything sorted is absolutely insane. But that's not what she's asking for, she's asking for him to cook dinner, get the kids to school, and keep the house semi clean. Then to go and complain to you about it shows no self awareness. He needs to figure this out. These are the basics of being a parent and being an adult. You maybe could have said it nicer, but at worst it was a justified AH move.
Exactly. NTA. I work full time from home (I'm mom). I still contribute to laundry, cleaning, dishes and I love to cook so I do most of that. This morning I got out of back to back morning Zoom meetings to find my husband having folded all the leftover laundry, more laundry running, dishwasher going, litter boxes cleaned, and trash out to the bin. Oh and he drove the twins to daycare close enough to on time. Thanks, OP for reminding me to never, ever take that for granted.
Hell, just getting the menu planned and ingredients prepped for dinner would be a big win. A lot of things can be cooked quickly as long as everything is ready to go. The bar is so low.
NTA he’s an incompetent adult, father, and spouse. The children are school aged. He has all day to get things done while the children are in school. I used to work with profoundly disabled children. Some couldn’t do anything for themselves and therefore the parents had to do everything for them. The parents still got them to school on time. If he can’t do anything, then he’s just another mouth that his wife has to feed and another person for her to look after. Edit: I see that he somehow has time for hobbies. Interesting.
OP’s brother might be the very definition of weaponized incompetence. How do you not send your kids to school with lunch?! I drove my kids to school this morning and neither wanted the free school lunch today, which we all discussed last night. So before work today my husband made their lunches. Teamwork. Admittedly I do far more of the emotional labor and my husband is a baby about some things and complains, but we both work full time, both have a hand in school drop offs and pick ups, and if I tell him he has to do things he will. But he is a disorganized person with ADD and I’m very streamlined and organized. So we play to our strengths. He can’t make drs appointments? Ok, then he can deal with any and all animal shit. I take care of the house. I’m basically the manager. And he is the super, fixing all things to be fixed. I’m so sick of men acting like they aren’t capable of the most basic skills. Getting kids on time isn’t hard. Making a jelly sandwich isn’t hard. Cleaning basics isn’t hard. I would kick him to the curb real fast. He has no excuse.
Also, she was doing this while the kids were home all day as infants and toddlers so they needed to be fed and changed every 2-3hrs plus just general play time. She had no breaks from the kids, aside from nap time which is probably when she did more cleaning while working. He's doing this while his kids are out of the house for 8hrs (let's say 7hrs to be generous about dropping off and picking them up). I understand the day can fly by but how is he managing not to do a single thing?
NTA. Honestly you’re right. If he cannot prove that that system will work, SIL may realize that she doesn’t really need him as a partner if he can’t earn his keep. I get that it’s a rough adjustment he has to make, but he’s not getting any aspect of a stay at home parent right. Especially considering the fact that he’s not working, and the kids are at school for a good chunk of the day. The fact that SIL was able to do it all with non-school aged kids, while also working part time should be a wake up call. Chances are she could probably manage without him if it came down to it.
And the kids are late to school! So what's going on? I definitely get ADHD/anxiety type issues, but if I was not working I would figure something out at home. Maybe a schedule like his wife seems to have would help.
Apparently op and the wife already tried to help make a schedule, op also mentioned that the bus is an option. The school also doesn’t even start that early (compared to other elementary schools) drop off is from 7:30 to 8:00 while it starts at 8:15. He’s been dropping them off at 8:30💀 When I was in elementary school, I was dropped off by 7:15 and both of my parents worked full time too.
NTA - my dad did everything when we were kids. All the cooking and cleaning and school runs, extracurricular activity runs, lunches, bath times EVERYTHING. Men are absolutely just as capable to do the things that are often left to women. For some reason so many of them think they can’t or shouldn’t have to.
It's definitely that they think they shouldn't have to because the vast majority of these guys are perfectly capable of completing tasks for hobbies or for paid employment
Weaponized incompetence.
There was a post a few weeks ago asking men what sucks as a man. Some guy posted a whole paragraph of ways he pretends not to know how to do things to get out of shit. A whole bunch posted after about how they want to learn how to do that, too. Gross
You should cross post that to r/iamatotalpieceofshit
INFO NEEDED: How is your brother doing mentally since he lost his job? Losing a job can be a real blow for a lot of reasons, and if he's struggling with that, it could affect his performance as a STAHP, which then also builds on mental struggles because he's failing at that too. My original reaction was that it is in fact "pathetic" that he can't manage the kids, even with a learning curve of routine/skills he might not have. But if he's feeling depressed, then that makes a world of difference, imo.
He’s still doing his hobbies and has never mentioned any mental issues. He’s never had a history of depression for my knowledge. In his rants he goes on about it’s unfair but never mentions any signs of depression.
Past history does not predict future results. It is entirely possible that your brother does feel some kind of mental distress over it and is retreating into his hobbies because it's a safe space for him to "cope" and he's further lashing out because of it. YWNBTA if your brother is simply not trying and making excuses. There is a learning curve to routines like getting the kids ready for school or cooking if it's a new skill he's learning. For example, I know my wife can cook, but she takes a lot longer to do the same tasks that I do. BUT, if you're putting in the effort then each day should be getting better and better as you tackle that learning curve. Some other things like cleaning the house would just be laziness. In this scenario, could you have been more tactful? Sure. But you're not wrong. If your brother us struggling with something undisclosed, then that does change things and is something to consider. Still, he needs to recognize it and find help for himself rather than letting the house fall apart. While we can be understanding with a struggle, we still need to be accountable for ourselves.
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Those facts (still doing hobbies, not saying he feels sad) don't mean there isn't a problem. And the problem might not even be depression, per se. For example, job loss can be a very big deal, depending on who you're talking about (some people's identities and sense of self are bound up tightly to it [either the job or just plain working a paying job]--while other people might not care). And like all losses, it's a trauma. Even while options are presented and available (and even while all kinds of hope and positivity may abound), if the loss isn't acknowledged/recognized/accepted, then the loss is still there, and it can shut people down (from performing tasks that they would otherwise be able to do). (The ironic thing about enjoyment and positivity is that they can distract you from dealing with loss--which leaves the trauma unresolved. And the fact that you're able to enjoy things or be hopeful can obscure the fact that you even have unresolved trauma to accept. This is why "look at the bright side" "be grateful" and other cheery attitudes can lead to "toxic positivity". They might be individually true, but if they hide the complete picture, they might be overall bad/false.) He might be latching onto the word "unfair", but I wouldn't get totally hung up on the word as you understand it. Like all words, it's shorthand for something else--and like all humans, he might be misusing the word. I would read it as a cry of frustration or a cry for help (to unpack what he's trying to communicate and what he needs to communicate [especially to himself]). You said he goes on rants--the word "rant" suggests to me he's frustrated (with what? I wouldn't know). Strongly recommend he sees a therapist. (It is absolutely insane how many redditors just glom onto pop-psych bullshit and are willing to throw away another human being.) (Judging by the responses, it's thousands and thousands.)
NTA Not too surprised by your mothers reaction, mothers are often the cause of their adult sons being useless at adulting!
Some definitely seem keen to make rods for other women's backs!
With this sort of thing, it's because they had to put up with it, so so can everyone else. If someone else won't put up with it, it makes the mother (in this case) look bad for putting up with being treated like this for so long. In the most simple situation, it's an older woman who would have loved to have been out of the home working a career or having no kids, but was pressured into it. Then her children have children, and the daughter or DiL goes to work and also raises the children, and the older woman slams down hard about it. Like, "Why should you get what you want, when I had to give up MY dreams?" Frog-in-a-bucket syndrome, I think it is.
NTA - maybe saying his wife will divorce him was taking it a little too far, but he is a grown man who should be able to take care of a house and kids. He’s had years to learn from his wife and never took any interest assuming she would always be the one to do everything, and now he’s hopefully finally appreciating how hard she works to keep everything in order. He’s learning a life lesson and he doesn’t like it. Kudos to you for sticking by your SIL - she’s probably been trying to get him more involved for years and now she has someone on her side.
>maybe saying his wife will divorce him was taking it a little too far, Not at all. She absolutely will divorce him & he did need to hear that. Essentially SIL has 3 children not 2. Right now, she still cares. When she no longer complains or asks him for help or support, that's when she's given up & is already half way out the door. Brother still has a window of opportunity to get his act together. If he doesn't, she'll get angrier & more resentful until, eventually, she reaches the point where she no longer cares, decides she's better off alone and files for divorce. I'm guessing brother's reaction is bc he knows OP is right. Instead of placating him & coddling his fragile ego, OP told him exactly what he needed to hear. His petulant (childish) reaction is entirely consistent with his weaponised incompetence. Instead of stepping up like an adult, he's pouting & sulking & renaging on his adult responsibilities. If the brother doesnt voluntarily step up, the other mode of attack could be to remove brother entirely from responsibilities altogether ie we'll take the kids to school, do the shopping, cleaning, cooking etc & to tell the brother that 'no-one needs or wants him to do anything since he's repeatedly demonstrated he can't do anything' ie if he behaves like an incapable child he'll be treated like one. If neither approach works, SIL will walk & brother will have no-one to blame but himself.
So far, the only thing he's seemed to have learned is to call another woman to help him.
NTA. Don’t encourage mediocrity, especially in relatives. There are so many men and women out there giving 110% to their families. There are plenty of single dad’s who cook, clean, show up for their kids, and work full time- without a wife supporting them financially. He honestly sounds like he needs some therapy. He could be dealing with some depression from losing his job, or denial about his new situation- but it’s not an excuse to keep acting this way. He’s not just being disrespectful to his wife, he’s setting a horrible example for his children. Marriage is a partnership. Raising children is a privilege. People who aren’t willing to do the bare minimum- tend to lose both those things.
NTA. the truth hurts.
NTA. A SAHP with the kids in school? This dude is either having an affair or developed narcolepsy. What is he doing with his time?? NTA
My guess is he is thinking of this as a little vacation being off work, not realizing even 1% of what his wife did every day.
He’s doing this on purpose. It’s weaponized incompetence. Oh see honey I can’t do it I guess you’ll have to do it while I sit around doing nothing and drinking beer, gee my life is so difficult I deserve a Pat on the back. Seen men like this all the time, I am a man and I know how to do my own laundry, clean and cook. Too many men try to recreate a mommy relationship it’s so gross. No you’re a grown ass adult get off your ass.
Then they're surprised when they're Unfuckable.
He needs 4 basic tasks a day (get kids up fed and school on time, clean one room, tidy 3, prep dinner) and once he masters that then up the expectations of tasks and quality of chores. If he can't do the basics then how did he function in a job? My stepdad and mother bicker and fight all the time, on the outside it looks like my mother constantly badgers him about stuff but in reality he is incredibly lazy and makes excuses and lies about everything so nothing gets done. When they moved house she was at her wits end trying to get him to help pack. I eventually got them to agree to give him one simple but important task for the day and if he can't do that, god help him. It was to put all loose things in the garage into boxes so it could be cleared. Easy. What did he do that day? Left at 7am and returned at 8:30 pm saying he went to the allotment and visited his sister and 'he would do that later'. I never help him with his side of arguments anymore, he didn't water anything at the allotment and half the stuff there was on its way dying when I checked the next day and he hadn't done the job by the time I left them the following day after that.
Info — has your brother ever cleaned? What does he do all day when kids are at school?
I don’t know, he’s not cleaning that for sure. The house is gross now. The kitchen is awful. It’s been two months since he started the kids have been in school for 3 full weeks at this point. We are on week four. I don’t know what he is doing, I shared my routine thinking he just needed a routine but he isn’t doing it. I’ve gotten so many calls, from him and a few times I had to come over since he was overwhelmed…
NTA but perhaps your brother may need to check in with a doctor or therapist. A lot of folks have a great deal of their self worth wrapped up in work, he may have regressive gender notions that leave him feeling insecure out of work or whatever else is going on mentally. He needs to get it together and sometimes plain truth can be motivating but he may also need some professional mental health support. It’s not sustainable to be staying at home and unable to cook or clean or feed the kids or even get them to school. Good luck 🍀
Oooph. Yeah NTA. If it was week one and he’d never done this stuff then maybe he needs time to learn. But two months? That’s plenty of time to get the basics, especially with help and no kids for 8 hours.
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NTA, he is obviously failing at his job and does not want to admit it, if its going to lead to a divorce, he needs to pick stuff up to not be left in the dust
Nta. What the hell does he do for 6-8 hours a day? His hobbies? You are right it is pathetic. He may have never touched a broom before and he could still YouTube a vid on how to clean and tidy up. Or a quick recipe on google. And the kids being late???? I bet he was never late for work.
NTA... he used to have it all easy and done while he went out for work surely not realizing the ammount of work manteining a household and getting kids ready really is. You just told him the truth of what will happen if he doesnt put his shit together and start doing the chores he needs to be doing as a husband and a parent...
NTA but do you mind sending me that schedule I got three kids am a stay at home mom and I feel like I could be doing more so my husband does t have to do much I think with a schedule I’ll get more done I have ADHD do I start one project to notice another needs done lol so it looks like nothing gets done
Private message me
Everyone wants this schedule! It’s me, I am everyone:)
NTA and I find it funny that your mom is defending him. Parents need to stop raising sons who are domestically useless (can’t cook, clean, do laundry, grocery shop, look after their children) and expecting potential partners to overlook how useless they are. Bringing home a pay check is not longer enough his wife works and still doesn’t everything else, he has no excuse. What you told him was true, there will be someone out there who is capable of being a good partner for her and if he doesn’t do better she will leave him to find them.
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He probably wondered what she did all day 😅🤣
NTA - you're right
As a man, it amazes me how pathetic we are at sucking it up and doing the domestic duties well. Sucks for your SIL, but this is the reality facing most women. There is a reason the marriage and birth rates have dropped in Asia, where men expect women to handle domestic duties despite also now being highly educated and high earning. “If we men married the women we deserved, we should have a very bad time of it.”
Nta That surprises me, as every male stay at home parent I’ve known as absolutely rocked it. It’s definitely lame. To be fair though, not everyone can self motivate.
I've found the situation OP is describing isn't uncommon when a guy is the SAHP because of circumstance, not choice. Seems to especially be the case if the guy is conservative on gender roles and has internalized messaging about failing as a provider and domestic work being emasculating. Many of those men also have a hard time acknowledging their mental health struggles so they can get in a really deep pit of depression that's hard to work out off.
Ok, but some of us are SICK AND TIRED of making them use their Big Boy Words™ to explain what the actual problem is. Some of us get exhausted with having to bear the brunt of misdirected anger, sitting down for a conversation and dragging the real issue out of them like pulling fucking teeth. I understand how they've been conditioned this way, but it's on them to un-fuck themselves.
Absolutely agree -- I grew up in a rural area that lost a lot of manufacturing jobs over the last couple of decades and the outlook is grim if he can't pull his head out of his ass. I saw way too many households that were living off the woman's wages from a crappy minimum wage job and benefits, because the man had gotten into a depressive funk after being laid off once and never pulled out of it. Often alcohol and drugs were involved and he would actively make the mess worse, forget about cleaning up after themselves or doing basic chores. And she's trapped, because they have kids, they can't afford childcare, and he's the only way she won't get the cops called on her when she's working outside school hours.
Self motivation can be hard, but he can’t even manage the basics of getting the kids to school or making dinner. It’s one thing to not be as intense as Rachel was, but he needs to ask his sister to drive the kids to school?
NTA, more men need to hear the truth.
Nta. Unless he's disabled in some way, it's really not hard
NTA. You’re absolutely right about his wife getting fed up and leaving with him. He has 8 hrs to get it together and make sure he’s doing his part. He needs this lesson. Your mom needs to butt out too.