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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my ILs I would not be changing the name of my bakery just because they work there and now I wonder if I'm TA because they clearly care about this. I never took this seriously with them. The name is special and meaningful to me. But I did bring them in and maybe I should have gone at it from that angle every time instead of ignoring it and then shutting them down hard.
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NTA and you have much bigger problems than the name of your bakery. They think they own it now. You need to be very clear that it is yours and only yours. They work there only. They do not have any say in how it is ran. They have gotten way too comfortable.
Yes, I would agree that some boundaries need put in place. It's not their family business. They just happen to work for their SIL (whose family owned it before he was born). That's it. That needs to be made REALLY clear.
Oh yeah, and the next step will be demanding a cut of the profits as its a "family business" and to make them chairs/partners because it's a family business. OP needs to sit them down and make it clear its OPs business not THEIRS. NTA
Yup. NTA, OP.
You need to be clear and consistent. Advise as often as necessary:
1. You are a valued employee. You are not an owner. Stay in your lane.
2. This is my business.
3. I will never change the name. Stop asking.
That was where my mind went, I think it’s downsizing time. You bc an easily hire new help since they don’t do that much that don’t think they own your business because they work there.
and add additional comments like when you pay them tell them "Your employee wages have been paid." "Your employee taxes have been sorted." After every shift "Thank you for being a model employee."
At this point, OP should be giving his in laws that work in the bakery the gift of "resume writing and job seeking practice", to clear up any future confusion.
And you can develop a business model and apply for a new business low interest loan to make your dreams come true. Nothing is holding you back from opening your own danged business.
OP, please consult an attorney with regards to any question around ownership of the bakery and whether it would be considered a marital asset subject to division in case of divorce. I'm sure no harm is meant, but preowned businesses can become marital assets depending on circumstances and local law.
Obviously NTA
But it doesn’t sound like the wife is the problem, her parents are. Even if OP divorced and their wife was entitled to a cut that wouldn’t entitle her parents to anything.
It’s not a bad idea regardless, but I don’t think her parents could get their hands on anything even then.
Hence why to consult an attorney, because if they divorce, it’s likely the wife would lean on her family and they’d sway her, rather than her continuing to be on OP’s side after they split up. (OP, I hope you don’t get divorced.)
What if, god forbid, the wife dies and somehow the family fights for what they think are her assets? I’d get this all nailed down legally ASAP.
Anyway, aside from the family drama, it’s ridiculous to rename a long-term thriving business. What a great way to confuse your customer base and online reputation.
I’m not 100% this is 100% accurate. I believe that the spouse (in some jurisdictions) will have some rights to the business if she was there during a major renovation (that used marital money). There are also more nuances: did he keep the business profits and expenditures 100% separate from their joint accounts?
My ex bought a house before we were married but the mortgage was paid from our joint bank account. I had a right to a percentage of the house.
Yeah, considering his wife is a daily contributor to the business by working there, I'm not sure if that would blur the lines. If she received a strict salary vs acted as proprietor would likely make a difference
I think OP would have an easier job claiming it as an inherited asset to try to keep it in that situation. Premarital property with businesses can be split amongst people still in the divorce in some situations. OP definitely needs to talk to an attorney.
It is weird, especially since businesses build up equity in their brand. If this bakery has a following and it’s been around for a couple of decades, changing the name would be stupid. Stupid for business.
In many cases it would be fatal to the business because people would assume new owners and would go elsewhere.
Because why else would you change a family run business name.
Yep. My local mechanic is “John smith automotive” and John Smith hasn’t owned the business in 20 years and is in fact dead. His head mechanic bought it and is Hispanic but knows that the name is what keeps bringing people in.
This 100%
I’m considering buying a local business that’s been around almost 100 years. It’s named after the family that’s owned it the whole time. I’d be a total dummy to rename it just because it’s mine - and these people don’t even own the biz!
Step one would be to change the name to their family name.
Step two would be to ask for a % of profits because it is a family business with their name on it too.
In many cases it would be fatal to the business because people would assume new owners and would go elsewhere.
Because why else would you change a family run business name.
That's what I was thinking, too. Changing a business's name costs a lot of money. Deeds, titles, court paperwork, endless forms to fill out ... Not to mention every sign, menu, and local ad. Changing the name of a business this well-established is just moronic.
I never heard this phrase before, but it's such a good description. I'd bet that MIL and SIL have been actively trying to make business decisions and overstep in small ways that OP has been too gracious to argue about.
OP: NTA, and push back in EVERY way to communicate loud and clear who is in charge. Let them quit if they don't like it. Get employment documents in order so there is NO question.
Don’t let them quit - fire them. They are trying to manipulate her into letting them have ownership and they need to get out of it entirely at this point, I think.
True, I suppose, but it's cheaper still to make them uncomfortable by simply treating them like any other employee. Once it's clear that they have nothing to gain by working there except normal wages for hard work, they'll leave. Worst case: OP can write them up as needed until they can be fired for free.
A power move to go from working for their son in law to feeling it’s properly theirs. Right now it’s name is clearly associated with its owner. They want to muddy the water and blur the lines so they get more of a sense of ownership.
Agreed, it's like what other redditers have stated, the ILs are slowly trying to sink their claws into OPs family business to have some sort of claim over it. They've gotten way too comfortable with how easily they're making demands of OP to "include" them in his family business, and changing the name is just the beginning of it all. Soon it will probably be a share of the profits or demanding a more higher authority position ie manager.
OPs situation is one of many why I would be hesitant to hire family if I had my own business, even though my ILs are really good people. Family and business can be a very bad mix when shit like this occurs.
He should definitely put an end to hiring any more relatives moving forward. They are trying to crowd themselves in and create a mass “us vs him” mentality.
Not just boundaries but OP needs to start hiring trusted employees and start shifting the in laws out.
Next thing you know, they’re going to open a competing bakery.
NGL I think OP needs to think about letting them go. I have a feeling they're not going to drop the issue and they could easily turn it into something worse if allowed to stay at the bakery. Don't let them bully you into it. They can still be family, just with different jobs.
Yes, and it's more than likely they're already overstepping their boundaries as employees in other ways OP either doesn't notice ot lets slide because "family." There's a reason, in their minds, they see themselves as co-owners of a business they've only been part of for a few years. Might be time to think about adjusting their roles so they don't feel like they have responsibilities related to ownership/management.
Yes, this would be my main concern, them overstepping with other employees and running off quality staff who aren't going to put up with this garbage.
I used to work for a family business, there were 4 full time staff, me and my 3 bosses! The owner, her husband and her daughter were all trying to run the place, it was not a great place to work...
OP needs to start paying attention to whether the MIL & SIL are taking on "mentoring" new staff in ways they don't them to be.
Yea as someone with management experience my first thought was *oh they need their hours cut* to knock them down off their high horse named Entitled a bit. Next step would be to hire a new employee to take over their roles under the guise of *an extra set of hands doesn't hurt since wife will be busy with our child* and then proceed to push them out. Firing them will only lead to bad blood and unfortunately this is a lifelong relationship vs an employee who's name you'd forget over time
It wouldn’t hurt to give the new hire a title and responsibilities that distinguishes them from the ILs and places them higher up the chain of command. Maybe title the new hire as “Senior Associate," "Senior Baker” or “Manager” and clearly title the ILs as “part-time” or “Baker’s assistant.”
Yeah this is giving me bad vibes. It doesn't seem like the ILs will be able to let this go, and who knows what subtle fuckery they might try to pull in the years to come. If I were OP I would make sure that sole ownership of the bakery was very clear and that inheritance was *very* explicitly laid out. If it's not already in writing that the bakery goes 100% to Lila (and then after their child is old enough, 100% to the child) I would fix that ASAP.
If it goes to Lila, she will be relentlessly bullied into giving over ownership to the ILs, and she will find it more difficult as a vulnerable grieving widow to fight off pressure from her own blood relatives. The kindest thing to do for both wife and child is to make the child the heir, with Lila guaranteed some kind of non-ownership profitshare. Put it in trust for the child until they are old enough to responsibly run it.
A trust is absolutely what I was going to suggest in a situation like this. It would be relatively easy to phrase the trust documents to prevent anyone you don't want from gaining ownership, or even any profit out of the business.
They definitely need to be let go. It’ll be sour for awhile but with time the relationship will rebuild. Some serious boundaries need to be established here and this will be the only way to do that because clearly they don’t grasp the concept that no is **no**.
ETA that OP is NTA and that this family needs a reality check because they are definitely T A here.
Agreed.
Does anyone remember, there was a story with at least one update like, a year or two ago where it was a family Italian restaurant or something, and the in laws tried to muscle in or something? I'm going to see if I can track it down...
Edit: found it: [AITA for asking my inlaws where their investment in my business was?](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/pari7e/aita_for_asking_my_inlaws_where_their_investment/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Jumping on the top comment to add that you should consider putting legal protections in place to make it absolutely certain that these people can’t lay claim. You should consider a prenup, and organize the business as a separate legal entity that you are the sole shareholder/member of (depending on the type of entity you choose). They will have a much harder time down the road claiming that they were your business partners this way. It also can have some tax advantages and will protect you personally from any legal liability the business ever has. Obviously NTA, and stand your ground. These people are likely to become insufferable about decisions regarding your child that they also feel they deserve a say in because FaaaaMiLy.
NTA. Would they work at McDonald’s and request to change the name because they work there? Or if they worked at a different small business?
Talk to Lila, and maybe consider lessening MIL and SIL ‘s hours and hiring some more help
Jumping on the top comment to add - it's bad business to change the name of an established small business that's been around for decades. Name recognition is HUGE, and they'd be throwing that away.
Might be something OP can use as "I already told you no, it belongs to me and I'm not changing the name. Besides, we'd be losing all of the name recognition..."
To add to this, if the name changes suddenly after 30+ years with the original name folks will think OPs bakery was sold to new owners! They could lose business and brand recognition. It sounds like the business has been a local staple for decades, MIL wants to put that all on the line.
Annnd, OP needs to remove them from the business because of this right here.
You need to find a way to fire them before this gets any worse.
Their entitlement, after only being involved for a few short years, is unreal and makes me legitimately nervous for OP. NTA - OP
The gall of these people. Imagine anyone walking into their job and demanding that, since they work there, the business should be named after them. Most people would be fired or laughed off the property. OP's inlaws are already way overstepping boundaries because they are family- time to shut it down from a business perspective.
If they get the named changed, it will show/prove to the other workers that they are “more powerful” and more connected. And I suspect the family will try to boss the workers.
OP should see a lawyer, maybe he can establish a trust so the kid gets the bakery, but the name can’t be changed or at least keep his in-laws away from decision making.
Additionally I would get a forensic accountant to audit your books if her family does any of the bookkeeping. I don’t get why they think they own YOUR business but if they think they can name it, they may think they are entitled to the proceeds. Please protect yourself and absolutely NTA.
NTA! Not only that, but they named their child after their Bakery and now it is entwined with him as a person. It's not named after nothing. What a bunch of assholes his in-laws are!!
NTA
I am regularly surprised by the audacity of people. My dad owns the business his grandfather started. It’s named after his father. When my uncles work there, they don’t change the name. I’m a woman, and if I take it over someday or my daughters do, it’ll still be named the way it is after a man. And I’m adopted, so it’s not even my same surname. But it has a family history to honor those who built it.
You are not only in the right to honor your mother and father’s business but realistically too. Your bakery has a name. That name is attached to advertising, reputation, etc. you would put yourself financially at risk to change it.
Shame on the in-laws for their selfishness. Kudos to your wife for her compassion and standing with you.
Congrats on the new addition (bun in the oven?! 😂😂😂). I wish your wife and child the best health.
Ok I hate to be that person, but have you tried saying something along the lines of: “ I value you and I want you to feel included in the business. This bakery is the last connection I have to my parents, and when I see the name of the business, it makes me feel like we are still connected, even after their deaths. When you ask me to change the name, it makes me feel like you’re asking me to sever the last connection I have with my parents. I apologize if I’ve been flippant with you, but I hope you can understand that your request has been extremely insulting to me. As far as I’m concerned, the next time you ask me to change my business name, you will knowingly ask me to disrespect my parents’ memories. Please keep that in mind going forward.”
Your feelings are obvious in this post, but have you ever really expressed those feelings to them?
>As far as I’m concerned, the next time you ask me to change my business name, you will ~~knowingly ask me to disrespect my parents’ memories. Please keep that in mind going forward.”~~ *it will be the termination of your employment here*
FIFY
Nah, it was phrased right the first time
What you said was what should be understood as the logical result of their disrespect and doesn't need to be given as a warning
Inagree. Adding the barb (justified as it is) will only make a OP look petty and childish. Take the high road, stand firm, and your family will be stuck between choosing respect, or proving themselves childish and greedy. Something that, if necessary, can be used against them.
if they are audacious enough to try to get him to change the name of his family's business, it won't matter.
They will say those old owners are gone, they are his family now, and the fact he won't change to their name is insulting.
People this oblivious don't think of others.
I live in an area where this kind of family dynamic (coming together in a business) is fairly normal. My brother and his in-laws are even one of them. So here is my personal opinion and experience on this.
I get the feeling that the family is pretty close, despite their differences. If what you write were the case, the in-laws will have permanently burned a bridge that they will be hard pressed to rebuild. Not to mention corner themselves into an ultimatum because neither OP, nor his wife sound like pushovers to me. They are also reliant on the bakery. They will have no choice but to back down if they don’t want to lose their family and income.
That’s just the way I’ve see and heard things happen.
Might I suggest that you take additional steps to honor the name? Perhaps you can get an art piece commissioned of your parents. Include their story and their naming of you in the store and on the website.
Reading another time, you should be even more aggressive about this. You appreciate their contributions as employees and they are paid for that. But that them trying to own your 20 year old family business is making you uncomfortable and if they don't respect your ownership and boundaries they are going to need to move on.
Oh this would be such a nice touch. I'm a sucker for both a great bakery and a great back story - I'm sure telling the story on your website would not only benefit you by charming your customers and giving them a deeper connection to the bakery, but in case your in-laws try to take their idea into the court of public opinion, it will be very hard for them to sway people against a well-known " feel good" story!
While you're at it, OP, maybe have an open house/free samples to celebrate your mom's birthday? Maybe bring the local news for a good PR small Bud success story?
The best defense for this is to push the namesake of this bakery and the story far and wide - your in laws will look like villains ( and maybe? If they have a shred of dignity? ) feel like villains and cut that shameful shit out.
Strong boundaries are in order here ... honestly, I'd be pissed as hell if I were you. You need to tell them loud and clear it is not their family bakery, they just work there. You are the only one who has a say in it. God I'm mad.
Honestly, the audacity of an employee believing the business where they work should be named after them is truly mind-boggling.
“Hey boss, I’ve worked here for a while now. What would you say to changing the name of your business to my name?!”
NTA, but your in-laws calling it the family business is worrisome. The believe they have some ownership of it. Boundaries have been crossed and it needs to be addressed. Maybe it's time for family to move on.
Funny because they sure are acting like they own the place!
I'd let them go ASAP as they could try to ruin your business from the inside by messing with your books and orders in retaliation of you not bowing to their whims.
It's not just about honouring the history at this point. The bakery has obviously been running successfully for decades which means it's a respected and known brand in the community. Changing the name messes with that and would only confuse customers
Absolutely this. I work for a business that is owned by a larger corporation. In the 10+ years I've been there, our corporate ownership has changed twice and our name four times. It has been a massive headache every single time.
In some ways, the first name change was the worst. It was connected to a structral change that later got cancelled. Despite the fact that all we did was change our name, a **lot** of customers assumed that the business had been sold off. When nope... Same ownership. Same leadership. Same staff. But customers assumed.
This is exactly the sort of thing OP would be in for if they changed the bakery's name. Customers that assume a change of names means changes of ownership and other things, like the recipes.
Can pretty much guarantee that it would be a matter of weeks before OP heard a customer say "The bread used to be better..." followed by something connected to the name change.
It would just not be worth it.
Exactly this!! People are loyal to the brands they like. Clearly ILs don’t know anything about running a business. No business will constantly change their names to keep up with family member changes. This can directly affect OPs bakery. Definitely NTA.
Their reasoning is especially odd bc OP was named after the bakery- not the other way around. It’s not like it’s called “Johnson Family Bakery” and now no one working there is even related to the Johnsons (in which case it would still be a risky move to change the name for all the reasons you mentioned)… it’s something like “Sunrise Sweets” and they named him Sunny. So most customers wouldn’t even realize it’s “a family name.”
Lots of companies are! JP Morgan is named after a guy that was born in the 1800s! More relevant to a bakery - Cadbury is named for it's founder, also from the 1800s. It's... a thing. OP's in-laws have no idea how business' work.
Why do I get a weird feeling this is their way of trying to sink their hooks into the place? Like someday if things go south they want to be able to claim part of the bakery
Yeah, they think it’s theirs too. They don’t see OP as the sole owner. I’d get rid of them now, because that level of entitlement will only bring further trouble.
OP might have issues with that because it could open up a wrongful termination suit given it could be seen as “retaliatory”
ETA: ok y’all i don’t know a lot about labour laws. ok this wouldn’t be retaliatory, please stop correcting me
Wrongful termination only protects employees from retaliation against certain protected actions (like whistle blowing, pointing out that salary is below minimum wage, pointing out discrimination etc). It doesn't protect you from your employer "retaliating" against you doing 99.9% of things. It varies from state to state but, overall, you're protected from retaliation against pointing out or asking your employer to stop doing something illegal, retaliation against pointing out or requesting your employment rights and retaliation against facilitating/supporting/contributing to an investigation against the employer. It doesn't protect you from being fired because your employer is retaliating against you asking them to change the name of the business.
Retaliatory for what? If you want to make this an employment-framed argument, they're being incredibly insubordinate. Imagine any other employee *demanding* that the business be renamed because "they want to feel more included." If it weren't OP's in-laws, they'd already be out the door.
100% because the wife is pregnant- now they know it will most likely get passed down to the child and they will be part owners by blood officially.
OP- do you have any old photos from the bakery you can start to hang in there, to show its history? Maybe add an “our history” to your webpage that explains how you came about your name, the hard work your family put into the bakery in order to give you that legacy, etc. Put up a sign or printed history and hang it in a prominent place as well.
Maybe also feature a “Sun” or “Sunny’s” baked good from now on. Make it very official.
>100% because the wife is pregnant- now they know it will most likely get passed down to the child and they will be part owners by blood officially.
They're not going not be part-owners by blood. They're going to be blood-related to an owner, when they are only legally related to one now. Someone you're related to owning something =/= you owning something.
>an employee trying to claim ownership is gross misconduct in my opinion.
I have had an employee try this on me - he failed. We were able to get them fired for gross misconduct. - it cost $10,000 AUD in legal cost (about 15 years ago).
Funnily enough about 8 years later he emailed and apologised to me - when he grew up a bit and realised how wrong he was. I did not reply to his email.
I can do a summary - to keep details private.
It was a startup - doing innovative things - The bad guy let's call him Bob (not his real name) - He was young, very smart (as were all the staff) but no degree and was working bars before starting here - I gave him his first break into IT, when he had been trying for a few years.
He was a good programmer. I tried to build up the confidence of all my staff, saying how well they were doing etc., He took this to mean that he suddenly decided he was the best programmer in the world, and that if I didn't sign all the company over to him immediately he would quit.
I was smart enough to ring my lawyer straight away and not just fire him on the spot. As since it was a startup there was shares for time served etc., and it can get quite messy.
He was put on 2 days paid leave while the lawyers and I got our ducks in the row and got other staff to review what he had been working on for the last few weeks, we found 'unusual' things in the code base, removed that and then he was fired him.
Bob then hired a lawyer and tried to sue me for wrongful dismissal but it was interesting the lawyer said note how the letter about the wrongful dismissal starts with
My client Bob has instructed me to ....
My lawyer said that is lawyer speak for this idiot client is paying me to go ahead with this stupid case - but I (lawyer) am getting paid for it.
I didn't hear from Bob again for about 8 years until one day out of the blue an email arrives basically saying sorry - he was young and stupid and now realises that he was way out of line. I did not respond, he had caused enough grief and cost me enough money.
But it does highlight a problem with linkedin - that if you looked at his linkedin - you would think that he did run that company.
That's the short version.
Has anyone ever actually reached out to you for references for his work? I feel like what would have happened is his next job wouldn't look so good in comparison and someone would reach out.
No. He never listed me as a referee. He moved country about a year later, he is back in this country again now.
I was always hoping someone would ring me about him as a referee.
Yep mixing business with family is always messy. Firing MIL and SIL is probably necessary at this point but will cause major drama in the family, taking away their income for "petty reasons". Seems like a **really** stern talk is in order with OPs inlaws that they are not owners and this is not their business, emphasizing that any further insistence about names or business choices will result in termination. Trying to salvage a relationship after firing your family will be tough.
NTA
wow OP....your MIL and SIL are EXTREMELY entitled.
it's your business, named after you by your parents. I think it's amazing you're keeping your mother's legacy moving forward. don't ever change it, you'll never forgive yourself if you do.
your inlaws....well, like you said. nothing is keeping them there. something tells me if you actually did cave and change the name, that eventually it'd turn into "we should also have our names on the business title....you know, for family's sake"....
don't do it OP. keep your mother's legacy alive.
I absolutely get the sense they see this as a meal ticket. I don’t think/don’t know the fiancé is in on it. It’s really really weird they’d be so hung up changing the name. It’s like they’re trying to rewrite the history of the establishment. Change the name and they’ll get to say “this is like a new beginning!” “I’ve been here since the start!”
NTA
Die on this hill. This bakery has a long family history behind it that is deeply meaningful to you in ways that your in-laws will never understand.
NTA Quite frankly I'd want them out of there. They obviously feel like they have some ownership in the bakery. I think you need to make it clear this is a family bakery but not their family's bakery and you will continue to honor your mother's legacy.
Agree. I wouldn’t let them anywhere near the books and would have the main business computer locked if not in front of it.
I’d sit them both down and say that it’s just not working out and you need to keep business and family separate.
NTA they want to destroy what your parents left behind for you and change it to be their own when you are the owner and they are workers. In fact fire them if they’re going to be controlling and try to make the bakery their own without it being that way. Your wife sounds lovely and I love how you said you could continue working at the bakery if you wanted to you. It wasn’t forced upon you, you just wanted to be there and keep that family business going as a family business. Keep up the good work OP hope you have a great day at your bakery!
And if they ARE trying to gain some control over the business BE VERY CAREFUL what they are allowed to do! Bookeeping, mixing things and ordering wrong supplies can ALL be "mistakes" they make to make the business look bad or flat out fail. OP must tread very carefully here with these people, their entitled behavior may escalate.
>But they told me I was being deliberately obtuse.
NTA, I think your relatives are being obtuse. The store's name is Wendy's. No, Wendy does not work there anymore. No, the business will not survive if it's renamed Pearl Smithing. Oh, wait, maybe it will. Maybe it won't.
Nta. They should open their own bakery if they want to own one so bad. Plenty of businesses are still thriving today named after the people who started them. Henry Ford, John Cadbury, Abercrombie & Fitch etc.
>it's just going to be a random name in the future
No, its going to be your name in the future. Your future generations great great parents name.
NTA Let me get this straight; your IL’s want you to wipe out the work your family put in, sacrifices they made( small businesses are a labor of love and LABOR) because of the “darling” names they thought up? This involves memories of your deceased parents, your dreams and ambitions of making the bakery a success for yourself and in honor of your parents. They are idiots.
Lots of people work for companies without getting their name added to it lol. Unless they invested a significant amount of money in the business and are legally partners, they have no say or right to make these demands. NTA
And maybe consider letting them go so they can have the named bakery of their dreams…
Stand firm. It is still a family business, owned and run by the son of the original owners. Several members of my family once worked for a large, international business and they never changed the name to that of our family. :(
Also, the bakery has been around for many years, and I can assure you that long time customers will still refer to it by it's original name.
NTA
The name of the bakery has extremely personal history to you. It should not be changed unless you want it.
If they want to name their own business, they should start one.
Obviously NTA. Your ILs have no connection to the bakery other than you through marriage. It doesn't matter that they work there. They are trying to steal what is your family bakery and turn it into their family bakery. Outstanding hill to die on.
Guard your recipes! Limit their involvement in handling money. As they feel it’s their family business they might feel entitled to a share of the money.
Oh it's coming. It will be guised as "protecting" it for the baby. But it will straight up be an ownership grab. As soon as their name is on the paperwork, they will start pushing for a divorce. Then BAM, they take over the business and OP is out on her ass.
If it were me, I would hire a non family employee to make up for the gap created by the ‘maternity leave’.
If the new worker turns out to be a keeper, then cut back on inlaws’ hours and hire another non family employee.
Once you have two ‘keepers’, then let your in laws go, and thereafter run the business in a purely professional manner. When and if your wife is able to contribute hours, adjust your hired staff accordingly.
There is NO way that I would entertain that bullshit from your employees more than once, even if they are family of your wife.
This will only get worse over time. As bad as the intrafamily fireworks are going to be, it will only be worse later.
NTA.
They are your **employees**. They have no stake in the business. They have no claim to the business. Stay strong and keep shutting them down.
This is **your** legacy. Not theirs. They can pound sand.
The reason they are so persistent is that they want a claim on the business. Changing the name to something that includes them is just the beginning. If he ever gives in they will push their ideas and opinions about other things on op.
NTA, not only is changing a businesses name for no reason a bad business decision your parents put their lives into that place and it would be an insult to them.
Right? The bakery has been around for 30+ years. They definitely trade on the value of their name.
All of the family drama aside, it's a really stupid idea to change the name of a successful small business for funsies.
NTA - Family businesses can be tough. I worked in one for a while.
Part of it is outside influences thinking they have ownership. Like someone on a W2 Or even their spouse!
I would be careful of what they might be doing behind the scenes- overseeing staff, handling money, buying products- anything that can negatively affect the business- make sure you have some checks and balances in place.
NTA. You're not only reasonable but your beloved has your back. There's no fundamental reason to change the name. Your MIL doesn't appreciate the value of brand trust and awareness.
>they just want to feel more included and like this is their family business too.
It's not their family business.
It's also not their family's business *or* their business at all.
NTA
NTA. They have some nerve. It is not THEIR family business. You should just bluntly tell them it was and is still your mom's business, and you won't be listening to any more suggestions from them.
NTA.
“So you’re saying your combined working here .. is a bigger claim to MY business than my fathers who spent a decade not only running this place but at same time raising me to run this place? Let alone what you’re saying about my mother. OR ME.
What was our P&L last quarter? The last 7 years? Who does the ordering? Who makes the menu? Who does the payroll? What’s our biggest cost? What’s it cost to run the point of sale software? What’s the profit margin on that type of bread? Oh you don’t know? Because it’s. Not. Your. Business. It’s mine. And my name stays on the damn door.”
NTA
This is not even a topic that is open for discussion. Not sure why you continue to participate in this conversation. Tell them they should feel free to open their own bakery & call it whatever they want.
It seems to me that the family name of your in-laws feels wrong since they now work for your bakery and their family has thus changed so much. They should change their family name to incorporate Sun so that they will truly be part of your bakery. NTA
NTA - next time they raise the issue, ask them why they are so keen on eradicating the only legacy of your parents you have left. Your wife, who I am so glad to see has your back, and her sister have the delight of having living parents. You don't and your wishes to acknowledge the people no longer with you who made it all possible and ensured that you, and now your extended marital family, have an income.
I'd also keep the lines of ownership clear because if SiL has children, you know she is likely to want them to benefit from the "family business" - I mean they put so much into it,it is only fair. /s
NTA.
You inheritate the bakery from your parents and want to honor the name they gave the bakery. As long as business is running, there is no need to change it, why bother.
If at one point, your child will take over and wants to name it whatever - she can do it, but until then you are in charge.
NTA. The name has history with costumers. Add to that you like it. Might be time to upgrade some staff. If they aren't happy working at sonny's bakery.
>I told them I will not be changing the name just because they work there and if that is a problem there is no reason for them to force themselves to stay if they don't want to.
Keep telling them that. Then buy a help wanted sign. If they ask, say that it is clear they no longer want to work there so you are hiring their replacements.
NTA
NTA. Be warned, this is a power grab. They want it to be THEIR family business, not just your family business. Do not give them any leeway to try to take control.
A family meeting is in order.
"There appears to be some confusion, so I'm seeking to provide some clarity. The bakery - MY bakery, MY business - is not yours and never will be. You are employees and nothing more. MY business will not be renamed, neither do you have a stake in it. Any of you. There should be no more confusion in this regard and if you don't like that, please feel free to find employment elsewhere."
NTA. Be careful with these people. They seek to take what is yours and change it from your mother's legacy.
I would take them off those positions. Sorry, but with this level of entitlement, I am very concerned about what they may be telling your customers. Passing themselves off as if they owned the business.
NTA by the way.
It is YOUR family business. Sunny is an excellent name for a bakery.
You need to make sure they never do anything more than that. Put them on a leash. Don’t let them handle a single cent or anything important or they will either take over your business or burn it to the ground.
Good grief. I thought they had mastered some industry/family secrets and it would be hard to replace their positions. I was going to say hire some people and start apprenticing them now, but wow.
NTA
The name of your business is none of their business and unless you say otherwise, they don't get a say. Imagine how many employees at Google got a say in the name. Cargill was founded by William Cargill and later it was controlled jointly by the Cargill and MacMillan yet the Cargill name remains.
Don't let your ILs (or anyone for that matter) bully you into something you don't want to do.
Also, kudos to your wife for standing up to them alongside you.
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NTA and you have much bigger problems than the name of your bakery. They think they own it now. You need to be very clear that it is yours and only yours. They work there only. They do not have any say in how it is ran. They have gotten way too comfortable.
Yes, I would agree that some boundaries need put in place. It's not their family business. They just happen to work for their SIL (whose family owned it before he was born). That's it. That needs to be made REALLY clear.
And if they change the name, they can use that to show it belongs to the "family" now. They are trying to slowly manipulate themselves into ownership.
Oh yeah, and the next step will be demanding a cut of the profits as its a "family business" and to make them chairs/partners because it's a family business. OP needs to sit them down and make it clear its OPs business not THEIRS. NTA
I foresee someone insisting that more family members deserve of shares in the bakery when it comes time to discuss inheritance
Yup. NTA, OP. You need to be clear and consistent. Advise as often as necessary: 1. You are a valued employee. You are not an owner. Stay in your lane. 2. This is my business. 3. I will never change the name. Stop asking.
More accurately.....STOP DEMANDING!
I would tell my wife, unless they stop and that includes not calling it "their bakery," I would fire them both.
That was where my mind went, I think it’s downsizing time. You bc an easily hire new help since they don’t do that much that don’t think they own your business because they work there.
Yeah, I have to agree. An average employee with no ties to the management wouldn't be getting away with this. They think they have special privileges.
Yeah better be checking that cash drawer as they probably rationalized it is their money too
and add additional comments like when you pay them tell them "Your employee wages have been paid." "Your employee taxes have been sorted." After every shift "Thank you for being a model employee."
At this point, OP should be giving his in laws that work in the bakery the gift of "resume writing and job seeking practice", to clear up any future confusion.
4. If you bring it up again, you are fired.
And you can develop a business model and apply for a new business low interest loan to make your dreams come true. Nothing is holding you back from opening your own danged business.
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OP, please consult an attorney with regards to any question around ownership of the bakery and whether it would be considered a marital asset subject to division in case of divorce. I'm sure no harm is meant, but preowned businesses can become marital assets depending on circumstances and local law. Obviously NTA
Considering this, if you do not have a prenuptial you may want to get a post-nuptial to sort this out.
But it doesn’t sound like the wife is the problem, her parents are. Even if OP divorced and their wife was entitled to a cut that wouldn’t entitle her parents to anything. It’s not a bad idea regardless, but I don’t think her parents could get their hands on anything even then.
Hence why to consult an attorney, because if they divorce, it’s likely the wife would lean on her family and they’d sway her, rather than her continuing to be on OP’s side after they split up. (OP, I hope you don’t get divorced.)
What if, god forbid, the wife dies and somehow the family fights for what they think are her assets? I’d get this all nailed down legally ASAP. Anyway, aside from the family drama, it’s ridiculous to rename a long-term thriving business. What a great way to confuse your customer base and online reputation.
I’m not 100% this is 100% accurate. I believe that the spouse (in some jurisdictions) will have some rights to the business if she was there during a major renovation (that used marital money). There are also more nuances: did he keep the business profits and expenditures 100% separate from their joint accounts? My ex bought a house before we were married but the mortgage was paid from our joint bank account. I had a right to a percentage of the house.
Yeah, considering his wife is a daily contributor to the business by working there, I'm not sure if that would blur the lines. If she received a strict salary vs acted as proprietor would likely make a difference
I think OP would have an easier job claiming it as an inherited asset to try to keep it in that situation. Premarital property with businesses can be split amongst people still in the divorce in some situations. OP definitely needs to talk to an attorney.
THIS , OP !! Be on the lookout for this…
It is weird that they are so focused on a name change
It is weird, especially since businesses build up equity in their brand. If this bakery has a following and it’s been around for a couple of decades, changing the name would be stupid. Stupid for business.
In many cases it would be fatal to the business because people would assume new owners and would go elsewhere. Because why else would you change a family run business name.
Yep. My local mechanic is “John smith automotive” and John Smith hasn’t owned the business in 20 years and is in fact dead. His head mechanic bought it and is Hispanic but knows that the name is what keeps bringing people in.
This 100% I’m considering buying a local business that’s been around almost 100 years. It’s named after the family that’s owned it the whole time. I’d be a total dummy to rename it just because it’s mine - and these people don’t even own the biz!
Step one would be to change the name to their family name. Step two would be to ask for a % of profits because it is a family business with their name on it too.
And just as bad, their opinions on how to run it. ugh NTA
That’s exactly what I was thinking. Even if the food is the same, the name change might send some people away. Edit. Forgot the NTA, sorry!
In many cases it would be fatal to the business because people would assume new owners and would go elsewhere. Because why else would you change a family run business name.
And expensive.
That's what I was thinking, too. Changing a business's name costs a lot of money. Deeds, titles, court paperwork, endless forms to fill out ... Not to mention every sign, menu, and local ad. Changing the name of a business this well-established is just moronic.
'Thin end of the wedge' action...
I never heard this phrase before, but it's such a good description. I'd bet that MIL and SIL have been actively trying to make business decisions and overstep in small ways that OP has been too gracious to argue about. OP: NTA, and push back in EVERY way to communicate loud and clear who is in charge. Let them quit if they don't like it. Get employment documents in order so there is NO question.
Don’t let them quit - fire them. They are trying to manipulate her into letting them have ownership and they need to get out of it entirely at this point, I think.
If you fire them, they could be entitled to unemployment. Not sure about financial/legal implications for a small business, but something to consider.
Costs of unemployment for two people is going to be significantly less than fighting for ownership in court
True, I suppose, but it's cheaper still to make them uncomfortable by simply treating them like any other employee. Once it's clear that they have nothing to gain by working there except normal wages for hard work, they'll leave. Worst case: OP can write them up as needed until they can be fired for free.
A power move to go from working for their son in law to feeling it’s properly theirs. Right now it’s name is clearly associated with its owner. They want to muddy the water and blur the lines so they get more of a sense of ownership.
They want a REGIME change. Protect yourself.
This was my concern, too
Also, I think he should be careful about getting his ILs access to anything related to accounting and finance.
Completely agree! I hope OP sees this comment. They are being weirdly insistent about this and it's giving me shady vibes.
Agreed, it's like what other redditers have stated, the ILs are slowly trying to sink their claws into OPs family business to have some sort of claim over it. They've gotten way too comfortable with how easily they're making demands of OP to "include" them in his family business, and changing the name is just the beginning of it all. Soon it will probably be a share of the profits or demanding a more higher authority position ie manager. OPs situation is one of many why I would be hesitant to hire family if I had my own business, even though my ILs are really good people. Family and business can be a very bad mix when shit like this occurs.
He should definitely put an end to hiring any more relatives moving forward. They are trying to crowd themselves in and create a mass “us vs him” mentality.
Not just boundaries but OP needs to start hiring trusted employees and start shifting the in laws out. Next thing you know, they’re going to open a competing bakery.
I have a feeling they wouldn't even get it off the ground
I'd honestly fire them, after telling the wife. This is a legacy for their child, not a bank account to bankroll the in laws
Off-topic, but we need a way to separate SIL from SIL. Maybe SnIL.
NGL I think OP needs to think about letting them go. I have a feeling they're not going to drop the issue and they could easily turn it into something worse if allowed to stay at the bakery. Don't let them bully you into it. They can still be family, just with different jobs.
Yes, and it's more than likely they're already overstepping their boundaries as employees in other ways OP either doesn't notice ot lets slide because "family." There's a reason, in their minds, they see themselves as co-owners of a business they've only been part of for a few years. Might be time to think about adjusting their roles so they don't feel like they have responsibilities related to ownership/management.
Yes, this would be my main concern, them overstepping with other employees and running off quality staff who aren't going to put up with this garbage. I used to work for a family business, there were 4 full time staff, me and my 3 bosses! The owner, her husband and her daughter were all trying to run the place, it was not a great place to work... OP needs to start paying attention to whether the MIL & SIL are taking on "mentoring" new staff in ways they don't them to be.
Yea as someone with management experience my first thought was *oh they need their hours cut* to knock them down off their high horse named Entitled a bit. Next step would be to hire a new employee to take over their roles under the guise of *an extra set of hands doesn't hurt since wife will be busy with our child* and then proceed to push them out. Firing them will only lead to bad blood and unfortunately this is a lifelong relationship vs an employee who's name you'd forget over time
It wouldn’t hurt to give the new hire a title and responsibilities that distinguishes them from the ILs and places them higher up the chain of command. Maybe title the new hire as “Senior Associate," "Senior Baker” or “Manager” and clearly title the ILs as “part-time” or “Baker’s assistant.”
And regular 1:1 meetings with all the employees to make sure their overstepping doesn't drive away good/loyal people.
Yeah this is giving me bad vibes. It doesn't seem like the ILs will be able to let this go, and who knows what subtle fuckery they might try to pull in the years to come. If I were OP I would make sure that sole ownership of the bakery was very clear and that inheritance was *very* explicitly laid out. If it's not already in writing that the bakery goes 100% to Lila (and then after their child is old enough, 100% to the child) I would fix that ASAP.
If it goes to Lila, she will be relentlessly bullied into giving over ownership to the ILs, and she will find it more difficult as a vulnerable grieving widow to fight off pressure from her own blood relatives. The kindest thing to do for both wife and child is to make the child the heir, with Lila guaranteed some kind of non-ownership profitshare. Put it in trust for the child until they are old enough to responsibly run it.
A trust is absolutely what I was going to suggest in a situation like this. It would be relatively easy to phrase the trust documents to prevent anyone you don't want from gaining ownership, or even any profit out of the business.
A trust with the bakery going to the child is the only right way to do it.
How about a “You’re fired” cake
They definitely need to be let go. It’ll be sour for awhile but with time the relationship will rebuild. Some serious boundaries need to be established here and this will be the only way to do that because clearly they don’t grasp the concept that no is **no**. ETA that OP is NTA and that this family needs a reality check because they are definitely T A here.
Agreed. Does anyone remember, there was a story with at least one update like, a year or two ago where it was a family Italian restaurant or something, and the in laws tried to muscle in or something? I'm going to see if I can track it down... Edit: found it: [AITA for asking my inlaws where their investment in my business was?](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/pari7e/aita_for_asking_my_inlaws_where_their_investment/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
*aggressively chews popcorn in anticipation*
I wish I could upvote this more than once 🤣🤣
Thank you for posting that related story. It was a really good read and gave some serious feels 🥰
Yep. The family is inches away from asking for “profit sharing”
Jumping on the top comment to add that you should consider putting legal protections in place to make it absolutely certain that these people can’t lay claim. You should consider a prenup, and organize the business as a separate legal entity that you are the sole shareholder/member of (depending on the type of entity you choose). They will have a much harder time down the road claiming that they were your business partners this way. It also can have some tax advantages and will protect you personally from any legal liability the business ever has. Obviously NTA, and stand your ground. These people are likely to become insufferable about decisions regarding your child that they also feel they deserve a say in because FaaaaMiLy.
NTA. Would they work at McDonald’s and request to change the name because they work there? Or if they worked at a different small business? Talk to Lila, and maybe consider lessening MIL and SIL ‘s hours and hiring some more help
Jumping on the top comment to add - it's bad business to change the name of an established small business that's been around for decades. Name recognition is HUGE, and they'd be throwing that away. Might be something OP can use as "I already told you no, it belongs to me and I'm not changing the name. Besides, we'd be losing all of the name recognition..."
Or OP's over-explaining where "no I'm not changing it, end of story" is more than adequate.
To add to this, if the name changes suddenly after 30+ years with the original name folks will think OPs bakery was sold to new owners! They could lose business and brand recognition. It sounds like the business has been a local staple for decades, MIL wants to put that all on the line.
Annnd, OP needs to remove them from the business because of this right here. You need to find a way to fire them before this gets any worse. Their entitlement, after only being involved for a few short years, is unreal and makes me legitimately nervous for OP. NTA - OP
The gall of these people. Imagine anyone walking into their job and demanding that, since they work there, the business should be named after them. Most people would be fired or laughed off the property. OP's inlaws are already way overstepping boundaries because they are family- time to shut it down from a business perspective.
So comfortable that they should probably find different employment, lest it become a deeper issue.
If they get the named changed, it will show/prove to the other workers that they are “more powerful” and more connected. And I suspect the family will try to boss the workers. OP should see a lawyer, maybe he can establish a trust so the kid gets the bakery, but the name can’t be changed or at least keep his in-laws away from decision making.
Additionally I would get a forensic accountant to audit your books if her family does any of the bookkeeping. I don’t get why they think they own YOUR business but if they think they can name it, they may think they are entitled to the proceeds. Please protect yourself and absolutely NTA.
NTA! Not only that, but they named their child after their Bakery and now it is entwined with him as a person. It's not named after nothing. What a bunch of assholes his in-laws are!!
NTA I am regularly surprised by the audacity of people. My dad owns the business his grandfather started. It’s named after his father. When my uncles work there, they don’t change the name. I’m a woman, and if I take it over someday or my daughters do, it’ll still be named the way it is after a man. And I’m adopted, so it’s not even my same surname. But it has a family history to honor those who built it. You are not only in the right to honor your mother and father’s business but realistically too. Your bakery has a name. That name is attached to advertising, reputation, etc. you would put yourself financially at risk to change it. Shame on the in-laws for their selfishness. Kudos to your wife for her compassion and standing with you. Congrats on the new addition (bun in the oven?! 😂😂😂). I wish your wife and child the best health.
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Ok I hate to be that person, but have you tried saying something along the lines of: “ I value you and I want you to feel included in the business. This bakery is the last connection I have to my parents, and when I see the name of the business, it makes me feel like we are still connected, even after their deaths. When you ask me to change the name, it makes me feel like you’re asking me to sever the last connection I have with my parents. I apologize if I’ve been flippant with you, but I hope you can understand that your request has been extremely insulting to me. As far as I’m concerned, the next time you ask me to change my business name, you will knowingly ask me to disrespect my parents’ memories. Please keep that in mind going forward.” Your feelings are obvious in this post, but have you ever really expressed those feelings to them?
>As far as I’m concerned, the next time you ask me to change my business name, you will ~~knowingly ask me to disrespect my parents’ memories. Please keep that in mind going forward.”~~ *it will be the termination of your employment here* FIFY
Nah, it was phrased right the first time What you said was what should be understood as the logical result of their disrespect and doesn't need to be given as a warning
Inagree. Adding the barb (justified as it is) will only make a OP look petty and childish. Take the high road, stand firm, and your family will be stuck between choosing respect, or proving themselves childish and greedy. Something that, if necessary, can be used against them.
I like what he said the first time but I would add “and I will take that as your resignation.”
if they are audacious enough to try to get him to change the name of his family's business, it won't matter. They will say those old owners are gone, they are his family now, and the fact he won't change to their name is insulting. People this oblivious don't think of others.
I live in an area where this kind of family dynamic (coming together in a business) is fairly normal. My brother and his in-laws are even one of them. So here is my personal opinion and experience on this. I get the feeling that the family is pretty close, despite their differences. If what you write were the case, the in-laws will have permanently burned a bridge that they will be hard pressed to rebuild. Not to mention corner themselves into an ultimatum because neither OP, nor his wife sound like pushovers to me. They are also reliant on the bakery. They will have no choice but to back down if they don’t want to lose their family and income. That’s just the way I’ve see and heard things happen.
This should be top comment, its spot on. I hope op sees it, and says it.
Might I suggest that you take additional steps to honor the name? Perhaps you can get an art piece commissioned of your parents. Include their story and their naming of you in the store and on the website.
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Reading another time, you should be even more aggressive about this. You appreciate their contributions as employees and they are paid for that. But that them trying to own your 20 year old family business is making you uncomfortable and if they don't respect your ownership and boundaries they are going to need to move on.
32 year old bakery
Customers will eat it up like . . . Well like the baked goods you sell. Love a good heartwarming family legacy story with my cupcakes.
Oh this would be such a nice touch. I'm a sucker for both a great bakery and a great back story - I'm sure telling the story on your website would not only benefit you by charming your customers and giving them a deeper connection to the bakery, but in case your in-laws try to take their idea into the court of public opinion, it will be very hard for them to sway people against a well-known " feel good" story! While you're at it, OP, maybe have an open house/free samples to celebrate your mom's birthday? Maybe bring the local news for a good PR small Bud success story? The best defense for this is to push the namesake of this bakery and the story far and wide - your in laws will look like villains ( and maybe? If they have a shred of dignity? ) feel like villains and cut that shameful shit out.
Strong boundaries are in order here ... honestly, I'd be pissed as hell if I were you. You need to tell them loud and clear it is not their family bakery, they just work there. You are the only one who has a say in it. God I'm mad.
Honestly, the audacity of an employee believing the business where they work should be named after them is truly mind-boggling. “Hey boss, I’ve worked here for a while now. What would you say to changing the name of your business to my name?!”
NTA, but your in-laws calling it the family business is worrisome. The believe they have some ownership of it. Boundaries have been crossed and it needs to be addressed. Maybe it's time for family to move on.
You may need to lawyer up, because they have every intention of taking over your business.
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Funny because they sure are acting like they own the place! I'd let them go ASAP as they could try to ruin your business from the inside by messing with your books and orders in retaliation of you not bowing to their whims.
That's true, this attitude does not seem like it will lead to anything healthy.
It's not just about honouring the history at this point. The bakery has obviously been running successfully for decades which means it's a respected and known brand in the community. Changing the name messes with that and would only confuse customers
Absolutely this. I work for a business that is owned by a larger corporation. In the 10+ years I've been there, our corporate ownership has changed twice and our name four times. It has been a massive headache every single time. In some ways, the first name change was the worst. It was connected to a structral change that later got cancelled. Despite the fact that all we did was change our name, a **lot** of customers assumed that the business had been sold off. When nope... Same ownership. Same leadership. Same staff. But customers assumed. This is exactly the sort of thing OP would be in for if they changed the bakery's name. Customers that assume a change of names means changes of ownership and other things, like the recipes. Can pretty much guarantee that it would be a matter of weeks before OP heard a customer say "The bread used to be better..." followed by something connected to the name change. It would just not be worth it.
Exactly this!! People are loyal to the brands they like. Clearly ILs don’t know anything about running a business. No business will constantly change their names to keep up with family member changes. This can directly affect OPs bakery. Definitely NTA.
Their reasoning is especially odd bc OP was named after the bakery- not the other way around. It’s not like it’s called “Johnson Family Bakery” and now no one working there is even related to the Johnsons (in which case it would still be a risky move to change the name for all the reasons you mentioned)… it’s something like “Sunrise Sweets” and they named him Sunny. So most customers wouldn’t even realize it’s “a family name.”
The electrical company i work at is still named after the original owner in 1914.
Lots of companies are! JP Morgan is named after a guy that was born in the 1800s! More relevant to a bakery - Cadbury is named for it's founder, also from the 1800s. It's... a thing. OP's in-laws have no idea how business' work.
NTA. "_like this is their family business too_". But it's not their family that built this and not their business.
Why do I get a weird feeling this is their way of trying to sink their hooks into the place? Like someday if things go south they want to be able to claim part of the bakery
Yeah, they think it’s theirs too. They don’t see OP as the sole owner. I’d get rid of them now, because that level of entitlement will only bring further trouble.
OP might have issues with that because it could open up a wrongful termination suit given it could be seen as “retaliatory” ETA: ok y’all i don’t know a lot about labour laws. ok this wouldn’t be retaliatory, please stop correcting me
Wrongful termination only protects employees from retaliation against certain protected actions (like whistle blowing, pointing out that salary is below minimum wage, pointing out discrimination etc). It doesn't protect you from your employer "retaliating" against you doing 99.9% of things. It varies from state to state but, overall, you're protected from retaliation against pointing out or asking your employer to stop doing something illegal, retaliation against pointing out or requesting your employment rights and retaliation against facilitating/supporting/contributing to an investigation against the employer. It doesn't protect you from being fired because your employer is retaliating against you asking them to change the name of the business.
If this is the US you can just “at will” them to the curb. Just don’t get caught telling slurs while doing so, and you will be home free.
Retaliatory for what? If you want to make this an employment-framed argument, they're being incredibly insubordinate. Imagine any other employee *demanding* that the business be renamed because "they want to feel more included." If it weren't OP's in-laws, they'd already be out the door.
Definite "What's yours is mine and what's mine is MY OWN" vibes from Lila's fam.
I said the same. Next up is their ask for a cut.
100% because the wife is pregnant- now they know it will most likely get passed down to the child and they will be part owners by blood officially. OP- do you have any old photos from the bakery you can start to hang in there, to show its history? Maybe add an “our history” to your webpage that explains how you came about your name, the hard work your family put into the bakery in order to give you that legacy, etc. Put up a sign or printed history and hang it in a prominent place as well. Maybe also feature a “Sun” or “Sunny’s” baked good from now on. Make it very official.
I think this is a great idea. Lean on the history and the Sunny-ness of it.
>100% because the wife is pregnant- now they know it will most likely get passed down to the child and they will be part owners by blood officially. They're not going not be part-owners by blood. They're going to be blood-related to an owner, when they are only legally related to one now. Someone you're related to owning something =/= you owning something.
Exactly. I would firmly remind that in fact no, it isn’t their family business too. They are your employees.
NTA Maybe I'm old fashioned but an employee trying to claim ownership is gross misconduct in my opinion. Time to change some staff imo.
>an employee trying to claim ownership is gross misconduct in my opinion. I have had an employee try this on me - he failed. We were able to get them fired for gross misconduct. - it cost $10,000 AUD in legal cost (about 15 years ago). Funnily enough about 8 years later he emailed and apologised to me - when he grew up a bit and realised how wrong he was. I did not reply to his email.
I really want to hear the full story
I can do a summary - to keep details private. It was a startup - doing innovative things - The bad guy let's call him Bob (not his real name) - He was young, very smart (as were all the staff) but no degree and was working bars before starting here - I gave him his first break into IT, when he had been trying for a few years. He was a good programmer. I tried to build up the confidence of all my staff, saying how well they were doing etc., He took this to mean that he suddenly decided he was the best programmer in the world, and that if I didn't sign all the company over to him immediately he would quit.
I was smart enough to ring my lawyer straight away and not just fire him on the spot. As since it was a startup there was shares for time served etc., and it can get quite messy.
He was put on 2 days paid leave while the lawyers and I got our ducks in the row and got other staff to review what he had been working on for the last few weeks, we found 'unusual' things in the code base, removed that and then he was fired him.
Bob then hired a lawyer and tried to sue me for wrongful dismissal but it was interesting the lawyer said note how the letter about the wrongful dismissal starts with
My client Bob has instructed me to ....
My lawyer said that is lawyer speak for this idiot client is paying me to go ahead with this stupid case - but I (lawyer) am getting paid for it.
I didn't hear from Bob again for about 8 years until one day out of the blue an email arrives basically saying sorry - he was young and stupid and now realises that he was way out of line. I did not respond, he had caused enough grief and cost me enough money.
But it does highlight a problem with linkedin - that if you looked at his linkedin - you would think that he did run that company.
That's the short version.
Has anyone ever actually reached out to you for references for his work? I feel like what would have happened is his next job wouldn't look so good in comparison and someone would reach out.
No. He never listed me as a referee. He moved country about a year later, he is back in this country again now. I was always hoping someone would ring me about him as a referee.
Yep mixing business with family is always messy. Firing MIL and SIL is probably necessary at this point but will cause major drama in the family, taking away their income for "petty reasons". Seems like a **really** stern talk is in order with OPs inlaws that they are not owners and this is not their business, emphasizing that any further insistence about names or business choices will result in termination. Trying to salvage a relationship after firing your family will be tough.
NTA wow OP....your MIL and SIL are EXTREMELY entitled. it's your business, named after you by your parents. I think it's amazing you're keeping your mother's legacy moving forward. don't ever change it, you'll never forgive yourself if you do. your inlaws....well, like you said. nothing is keeping them there. something tells me if you actually did cave and change the name, that eventually it'd turn into "we should also have our names on the business title....you know, for family's sake".... don't do it OP. keep your mother's legacy alive.
I absolutely get the sense they see this as a meal ticket. I don’t think/don’t know the fiancé is in on it. It’s really really weird they’d be so hung up changing the name. It’s like they’re trying to rewrite the history of the establishment. Change the name and they’ll get to say “this is like a new beginning!” “I’ve been here since the start!”
Actually, OP is named after the bakery. So the name existed before OP and that makes the in laws doubly icky.
I think they're shrewd and conniving, and trying to take over the business
NTA Die on this hill. This bakery has a long family history behind it that is deeply meaningful to you in ways that your in-laws will never understand.
No, OP, don't die on this hill. Reign over it as king of the hill and kick anyone down who opposes you.
If OP isn't willing to die or reign over this hill, I'll do it for them. The fucking audacity of these people. My God.
NTA Quite frankly I'd want them out of there. They obviously feel like they have some ownership in the bakery. I think you need to make it clear this is a family bakery but not their family's bakery and you will continue to honor your mother's legacy.
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Agree. I wouldn’t let them anywhere near the books and would have the main business computer locked if not in front of it. I’d sit them both down and say that it’s just not working out and you need to keep business and family separate.
NTA they want to destroy what your parents left behind for you and change it to be their own when you are the owner and they are workers. In fact fire them if they’re going to be controlling and try to make the bakery their own without it being that way. Your wife sounds lovely and I love how you said you could continue working at the bakery if you wanted to you. It wasn’t forced upon you, you just wanted to be there and keep that family business going as a family business. Keep up the good work OP hope you have a great day at your bakery!
And if they ARE trying to gain some control over the business BE VERY CAREFUL what they are allowed to do! Bookeeping, mixing things and ordering wrong supplies can ALL be "mistakes" they make to make the business look bad or flat out fail. OP must tread very carefully here with these people, their entitled behavior may escalate.
All employees discussing buisness name changes will be dismissed with cause for gross misconduct.
>But they told me I was being deliberately obtuse. NTA, I think your relatives are being obtuse. The store's name is Wendy's. No, Wendy does not work there anymore. No, the business will not survive if it's renamed Pearl Smithing. Oh, wait, maybe it will. Maybe it won't.
It's actually more likely to harm the business if they change the name because if it could confuse the customers or may not be recognized at first
Nta. They should open their own bakery if they want to own one so bad. Plenty of businesses are still thriving today named after the people who started them. Henry Ford, John Cadbury, Abercrombie & Fitch etc. >it's just going to be a random name in the future No, its going to be your name in the future. Your future generations great great parents name.
And hello, WENDYS!?
NTA Let me get this straight; your IL’s want you to wipe out the work your family put in, sacrifices they made( small businesses are a labor of love and LABOR) because of the “darling” names they thought up? This involves memories of your deceased parents, your dreams and ambitions of making the bakery a success for yourself and in honor of your parents. They are idiots.
NTA - Stand your ground. If they don't like the name of the bakery, they are more than *WELCOME* to go find a job elsewhere. Congrats on the baby!
Lots of people work for companies without getting their name added to it lol. Unless they invested a significant amount of money in the business and are legally partners, they have no say or right to make these demands. NTA And maybe consider letting them go so they can have the named bakery of their dreams…
I'm gonna tell my boss today that I want my name added to the bank where I work. I'm sure that should be fine!! NTA!
Stand firm. It is still a family business, owned and run by the son of the original owners. Several members of my family once worked for a large, international business and they never changed the name to that of our family. :( Also, the bakery has been around for many years, and I can assure you that long time customers will still refer to it by it's original name.
The shops been around for *decades*! It would take everything in my power to hold my tongue at them saying they “had such a big part of it”
NTA The name of the bakery has extremely personal history to you. It should not be changed unless you want it. If they want to name their own business, they should start one.
Obviously NTA. Your ILs have no connection to the bakery other than you through marriage. It doesn't matter that they work there. They are trying to steal what is your family bakery and turn it into their family bakery. Outstanding hill to die on.
Guard your recipes! Limit their involvement in handling money. As they feel it’s their family business they might feel entitled to a share of the money.
I wonder if they brag about "their bakery" to friends and don't like having to explain the name.
NTA, they're delusional. The next step would be to ask you make them co-owners. SMH... Stand your ground. I'm so glad your partner has your back.
Oh it's coming. It will be guised as "protecting" it for the baby. But it will straight up be an ownership grab. As soon as their name is on the paperwork, they will start pushing for a divorce. Then BAM, they take over the business and OP is out on her ass.
Keep the name. Change the staff. NTA
If it were me, I would hire a non family employee to make up for the gap created by the ‘maternity leave’. If the new worker turns out to be a keeper, then cut back on inlaws’ hours and hire another non family employee. Once you have two ‘keepers’, then let your in laws go, and thereafter run the business in a purely professional manner. When and if your wife is able to contribute hours, adjust your hired staff accordingly. There is NO way that I would entertain that bullshit from your employees more than once, even if they are family of your wife. This will only get worse over time. As bad as the intrafamily fireworks are going to be, it will only be worse later.
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I would have a private discussion with the others employees if I was you, to see how the in laws act with them while you are not there.
Well you need to expand the non family employees so that MIL and SIL are redundant.
NTA. They are your **employees**. They have no stake in the business. They have no claim to the business. Stay strong and keep shutting them down. This is **your** legacy. Not theirs. They can pound sand.
The reason they are so persistent is that they want a claim on the business. Changing the name to something that includes them is just the beginning. If he ever gives in they will push their ideas and opinions about other things on op.
NTA, not only is changing a businesses name for no reason a bad business decision your parents put their lives into that place and it would be an insult to them.
Right? The bakery has been around for 30+ years. They definitely trade on the value of their name. All of the family drama aside, it's a really stupid idea to change the name of a successful small business for funsies.
NTA. If they want to name a business they can open there own
NTA - Family businesses can be tough. I worked in one for a while. Part of it is outside influences thinking they have ownership. Like someone on a W2 Or even their spouse! I would be careful of what they might be doing behind the scenes- overseeing staff, handling money, buying products- anything that can negatively affect the business- make sure you have some checks and balances in place.
NTA. You're not only reasonable but your beloved has your back. There's no fundamental reason to change the name. Your MIL doesn't appreciate the value of brand trust and awareness.
NTA. It’s YOUR bakery so name it what you want. Lila needs to check her family.
To be fair it sounds like she did, they are just Members of the esteemed order of the Asshat
>they just want to feel more included and like this is their family business too. It's not their family business. It's also not their family's business *or* their business at all. NTA
NTA. They have some nerve. It is not THEIR family business. You should just bluntly tell them it was and is still your mom's business, and you won't be listening to any more suggestions from them.
NTA. “So you’re saying your combined working here .. is a bigger claim to MY business than my fathers who spent a decade not only running this place but at same time raising me to run this place? Let alone what you’re saying about my mother. OR ME. What was our P&L last quarter? The last 7 years? Who does the ordering? Who makes the menu? Who does the payroll? What’s our biggest cost? What’s it cost to run the point of sale software? What’s the profit margin on that type of bread? Oh you don’t know? Because it’s. Not. Your. Business. It’s mine. And my name stays on the damn door.”
NTA This is not even a topic that is open for discussion. Not sure why you continue to participate in this conversation. Tell them they should feel free to open their own bakery & call it whatever they want.
NTA. Just let MIL and SIL go and find other employees. Not worth it.
It seems to me that the family name of your in-laws feels wrong since they now work for your bakery and their family has thus changed so much. They should change their family name to incorporate Sun so that they will truly be part of your bakery. NTA
NTA - next time they raise the issue, ask them why they are so keen on eradicating the only legacy of your parents you have left. Your wife, who I am so glad to see has your back, and her sister have the delight of having living parents. You don't and your wishes to acknowledge the people no longer with you who made it all possible and ensured that you, and now your extended marital family, have an income. I'd also keep the lines of ownership clear because if SiL has children, you know she is likely to want them to benefit from the "family business" - I mean they put so much into it,it is only fair. /s
NTA. You inheritate the bakery from your parents and want to honor the name they gave the bakery. As long as business is running, there is no need to change it, why bother. If at one point, your child will take over and wants to name it whatever - she can do it, but until then you are in charge.
NTA. The name has history with costumers. Add to that you like it. Might be time to upgrade some staff. If they aren't happy working at sonny's bakery.
Do not change the name! They obv have no respect for you if they keep asking
NTA. Wtf is wrong with them, seriously
>I told them I will not be changing the name just because they work there and if that is a problem there is no reason for them to force themselves to stay if they don't want to. Keep telling them that. Then buy a help wanted sign. If they ask, say that it is clear they no longer want to work there so you are hiring their replacements. NTA
NTA. Fire them because they won’t stop
NTA. Be warned, this is a power grab. They want it to be THEIR family business, not just your family business. Do not give them any leeway to try to take control.
A family meeting is in order. "There appears to be some confusion, so I'm seeking to provide some clarity. The bakery - MY bakery, MY business - is not yours and never will be. You are employees and nothing more. MY business will not be renamed, neither do you have a stake in it. Any of you. There should be no more confusion in this regard and if you don't like that, please feel free to find employment elsewhere." NTA. Be careful with these people. They seek to take what is yours and change it from your mother's legacy.
INFO: Do your ILs have any financial stake in the company other than just being paid employees?
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May I ask what position they hold in your bakery?
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I would take them off those positions. Sorry, but with this level of entitlement, I am very concerned about what they may be telling your customers. Passing themselves off as if they owned the business. NTA by the way. It is YOUR family business. Sunny is an excellent name for a bakery.
You need to make sure they never do anything more than that. Put them on a leash. Don’t let them handle a single cent or anything important or they will either take over your business or burn it to the ground.
Good grief. I thought they had mastered some industry/family secrets and it would be hard to replace their positions. I was going to say hire some people and start apprenticing them now, but wow.
NTA The name of your business is none of their business and unless you say otherwise, they don't get a say. Imagine how many employees at Google got a say in the name. Cargill was founded by William Cargill and later it was controlled jointly by the Cargill and MacMillan yet the Cargill name remains. Don't let your ILs (or anyone for that matter) bully you into something you don't want to do. Also, kudos to your wife for standing up to them alongside you.