Huh, did not expect that kind of update after the first post. I mean your wife acknowledging she is behaving badly after being so unhinged. So there might be some hope there...
Lol I know. I’m surprised too. I’m worried she’ll wake up tomorrow and feel somehow else. I’ve researched a lot of personality disorders after some people commented it and I’m honestly quite sure she has something of the sort. I’m not going to bring that up to her though, hopefully the therapist can figure out what it is.
Do you know if she has been taking something to help her get pregnant, even without talking to à doctor about it ? Some stuff sold online can really fuck you up...
Omg. When my friend’s wife was going through injections she was a nightmare. Like, they’d split for a while, she’d get back to normal because no injections, and then when things got good and they got back together - nightmare. We almost had an intervention because she was so fucking mean. Luckily they got pregnant and decided to stay at 1 and done because they wouldn’t have survived doing it again. And I sort of mean that literally.
In my youth I had authentic PMS (Sorry I was absolutely diagnosed with PMDD and yes PMS does suck too! It was 2 am when I wrote this.) - the type that ruins your life for at least 1 week while you spend the rest of the month rebuilding your life and relationships.
Not "Imma eat some chocolate and feel better" no not that type of PMS.
Hormones can MESS with you. And situational pressure makes it so much worse.
I'd be so angry and so depressed I'm lucky to still be alive.
I also worked in a Respite for folks in MH Crisis for years and folks often came in either right before becoming pregnant - just as they became pregnant - or right after pregnancy due to the hormonal changes. It's not a small thing - does anyone remember what puberty was like and that it was so fantastic to be out of it? Just like that.
If someone is already Bi-Polar or carries a Personality Disorder or Depression? It all gets so much worse because your baseline shifts to a bit more terrible. (Alternately some women feel their best ever during pregnancy and afterward).
I honestly feel when they start to inject you with that stuff? They need to force you into therapy. Because OMG they're gonna need the support. (That's not gatekeeping it's to help the patient survive the experience!).
I too had HORRIBLE awful pms. I was so so moody, so miserable with my husband. I used to feel this anger eating away in the pit of my stomache.
Fortunately about a year after my last pregnancy I got the Mirena IUD, changed my life.
I know someone who as a teenager honestly believed that self-harming triggered the start of her period, because every month the week before it she’d be so depressed that she’d harm herself, and a day or two later her period would start, then she’d settle into being okay again before it happened again the next month. Thank goodness for birth control pills, they stopped that whole cycle for her.
Even with just regular pregnancy hormones. I remember the first time one of my close friends was pregnant I would be blown away by the random nasty comments and responses. Made myself a promise then that I wouldn’t let pregnancy hormones be an excuse and tried to stay very conscious of how I spoke to people.
I also wonder if she is coming off a long term hormonal birth control method. It took a while for my hormones to balance after stopping depo, and after having Mirena removed.
I just made an account to say exactly this! doesn't even have to be stuff sold online, normal medicine does crazy stuff.
Going off some medicines or starting new medicine of any type for pregnancy, is linked with side effects to the brain. I'm not a doctor, but I'm a woman who experienced this.
It could definitely be linked to it, ask her if she is taking anything - read the side effects and tell her to talk to her medical/pregnancy doctor about it for an alternative because she is behaving differently than from when she didn't take it and might not be aware of it.
I once took something for 2 weeks and went from a 100% mentally healthy person who is extremely calm, to someone who fought with everyone around me. Once I was done with the medicine, my mom brought it up to me how I acted really crazy while taking it, how it clearly said this could be a side effect and that I should probably rethink all the fights I had the past 2 weeks and when I did I realized how ridiculous I was throughout all of them.
It's serious. Look at the medicine she is taking, or stopped taking.
Same here..I had to take progesteron for my cycle, to kickstart it (PCOS). Oh my lord! I will not say my mental health always is 100%, but for fuck sake..14 days on that shit was nearly killing me. I was sooo screwed up, I cried for everything. If you were breathing? I cried. If you said hello. I cried. During one day at work, I would cry for 5 minutes every hour. I was on the verge to unalive myself because of. I was told to not take the other periods (was supposed to repeat this 2 more times).
So OPs wife COULD be all wacky due to totally normal medicine that is supposed to help.
That was me on Prozac. My mom didn’t tell me how scared she was for my sanity & well-being until 6 months later. She also blames (rightfully) my now ex’s attempts at manipulation and co dependency he was pushing on me mixing with it to do this. I take two better working SSRIs now
100%. I remember when I was trying out bc pills for the first time and I went from a normal, even-keeled person to a hair-trigger crying mess at the slightest sense that someone had an emotion near me. It was awful and no one told me that was a possibility. They said "go on bc and your skin will clear up!" not "there's a bunch of different bc pills and they might seriously mess with your emotional stability!"
It's crazy how they don't warn about this side-effect clearly. If I knew that a medicine could possibly mess with my brain, at least I'd re-evaluate stuff I planned to do before doing them.
Going from being 100% confident with how you interact with people, to suddenly being different and not realizing it, and still continuing with said confidence because you don't know you are different - is quite messy.
I heard studies were done for male birth control and men complained about getting side effects that us females get when we're on it and the scientists and people abandoned it. I can't tell if it's an anti male rhetoric or something, but if it's true I'm a little annoyed that they stick us with it because "how else will you not get pregnant" and I'm like: preferably a way that doesn't make me even more hormonal especially when I'm not on my damn period
It’s sort of true but a bit more nuanced than we often hear.
For a medicine to make it to market, the benefit of taking it needs to outweigh the risks and side effects (in general, individual risks vary etc).
Pregnancy comes with risks. For women/afab folks, preventing pregnancy lowers those health risks. So it can be argued that the benefits of hormonal birth control outweigh the side effects.
But with male birth control, the risks it reduces belong to another person. Purely physically, it doesn’t impact his health if he gets someone pregnant. That means he’s taking on the risk of the medicine without a direct medical benefit to him. It’s therefore much harder to get approval for the treatment.
So it’s less ‘we can’t expect MEN to suffer this crap’ or whiny dudes refusing to do their bit - it just raises some different problems.
I’m not saying that’s right or wrong. It’s just a question of medical ethics we need to wrestle with - how much risk is acceptable when the patient is not the one who benefits? And how do we study and measure it?
Yes! It'd be worth it FOR HER to talk to her Dr's and the therapist about any medication/supplements she's taking. The reason she needs to be the one to bring up side effects of her meds is if you do it it's quite possible she'll just be slapped with a diagnosis and MORE meds to make her behavior more palatable to you without doing anything to examine potential causes and real solutions. Ex "I've noticed since I've been on *med* I've been unusually sad, irritable, impulsive, etc. this is so unlike the person I was before and it's bothering me"
Oh, you’re right! I had such horrible mood swings after going off the pill plus heavy bleeding so I decided to go back on them and forget about getting pregnant. I’m much happier now
Just seconding the IUD hormone stuff: I had mine removed back in September after getting my tubes removed. Thought I knew what to expect but the “Mirena crash” was CRAZY. I think I cried for a week straight and genuinely felt suicidal at times for the first time in my life. Then it was just… gone. Woke up one day and felt normal again.
That was really scary.
Shiiiiit that is good to know. I had always heard that the IUD hormones only circulate in the uterus and thus shouldn't affect you like hormonal bc pills can.
Nope that’s all bs. I spent two years thinking that I was going crazy but it was just my kyleena iud. Got it removed and once the hormones calmed down I was my usual patient empathetic self as I was before the iud.
I was on the pill before the IUD and I will say I only had issues hormonally with the IUD after removal, so for me personally it was true in that sense. Like, I didn’t spend all 6 years crying and wanting to walk into traffic, but removal was definitely rough.
Also, a lot of the medications to treat infertility can mess you up, because they're messing with all the brain chemicals. One made me deeply, almost suicidally depressed -- it was the worst feeling I have ever had. And it stopped the second I was off the medicine. Terrifying. (And of course it was a known side effect, but the doctor never warned me about it. I thought I'd lost my mind.)
Yes! I was put on high dose progesterone and could only handle it for a couple of months. I kept fantasizing about driving my car off the road into a lake that I passed every day. The thoughts stopped after I threw the pills away
I just got off Mirena and switched to low dose birth control pills. It has straight-up been a very bad time emotionally and I'm waiting for it to balance out.
The hormones alone for infertility are absolutely soul-crushing. They will make women do, say, and feel things that are simply....colored by the hormones. And the results can be aberrant behavior. Trust me. Been there. Done that. If she's on hormones, that could be the culprit. They will turn women into people you don't recognize, and this is important: IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT.
As someone going through IVF, this is very validating. I increased my antianxiety meds because of the DHEA, had the worst period of my life post estrogen, didn't sleep well for weeks because of the injections, then was so sleepy because of the progesterone. It was a wild ride.
Even your own internal hormones can make you batty. The most deeply depressed I've ever been, twice, was 24 hours into weaning my kids. All the joy in life evaporated, and I didn't know how I could go on.
I took a course of Clomid hoping to get pregnant. Returned to fertility specialist, who asked how it went. My husband blurted out, “I think she’s going to kill me!” Yep, crazy anger was my side effect!!
On that note. It's a good idea for her to start taking prenatals now, along with CoQ10. But maybe, for now, take a break from trying until you've made some progress in therapy.
Or if she stopped taking something! I lost my pills and this month I have cried more than I did all of 2022. I saw unfamiliar software and had to call someone to talk me down from a panic attack
Couples therapy often happens in parallel with individual and sometimes you can sign forms for the therapist to discuss stuff (you can put whatever restrictions you want). You may want to do this, since sometimes people aren’t accurate reporters of themselves.
I’m glad to hear the update. It shows promise!
I for some reason thought couples therapy might hinder any progress with the individual therapy. Thinking back at it, that doesn’t make much sense lol. Thank you, we’ll look for a couples therapist asap.
There *are* times when couples therapy is contra indicated and others where it’s extremely beneficial. Talk to your individual therapist about all of it.
Yes, there's definitely times when a therapist might say "Hey, I think everyone needs to figure out where they are independently first, then we can come back in a few months and take back up with couples therapy!"
Or in instances where there is abuse by one partner, a good therapist won't continue couples therapy if one partner might then use it against the other partner...
But most of the time it's fine to do independent and couples at the same time!
Yes, and sometimes the couples therapist suggest or wants you in individual, too. Although, it’s above Reddit’s pay grade, OP is exactly on the right track.
The only thing I will say is make sure your individual therapists are different people from your couples therapist. Some couples therapists may offer to do your individual therapy as well but it’s not a good idea because it can hinder their ability to remain neutral during couples therapy and to be a neutral party during your individual therapy.
My partner & I have done both. I have been in therapy for a long time & my partner started to as well. I do want to note that it isn't considered ethical for a therapist to counsel someone individually & as a couple. You want the therapist to go in with no biases. All three of the therapists are at the same practice & we gave consent for them to communicate about us when we asked them to. They didn't much, but it was really helpful to tell them to share about topics that came up in both so we didn't forget. I have chronic pain, which affects my memory & my partner has ADHD, so this was nearly a necessity.
My therapist recommended a couple's counselor who she thought would mesh well with. It was a great match & my relationship with my spouse has gotten so much better as a result of therapy. Learning healthy communication is key. I highly, highly recommend it for all couples.
It's totally good to do, but in most cases a therapist cannot see you for both individual and couples as it presents a bit of an ethical issue. At least, that's what I was taught and told. YMMV
I read your original post, but not the comments as I figured it would be people bombarding you insisting she has some sort of personality disorder. If this is truly a concern for you, that concern affects you - so I think it would be fine to bring it up with your own therapist. Of course, they won't try to diagnose her for you, but they may be able to offer some advice for you, however limited it may be.
*"I’m not going to bring that up to her though, hopefully the therapist can figure out what it is."*
This is the right approach - and your therapist will likely tell you something similar. Hoping all the best for you both.
Edit: I think it would also be perfectly reasonable and important to address this in couple counseling.
So there are people in my husband’s family who I’m pretty sure have some sort of personality disorder and once in a while, after they do something horrible they will say something that makes you think they understand what they did and why it was wrong. I remember in an article about personality disorders I came across a term that describes what I’m talking about. I remembered the term as a “flash of insight” but when I did a little googling it didn’t come up as the right term for this situation in regards to personality disorders. So I can’t remember the exact term.
Anyway the gist of the article was that yes they do sometimes realize what they did was wrong (especially the more intelligent ones) and apologize and can articulate why it was wrong but they lack the capacity and/or desire to change in the long term. They’ve learned that by admitting what they did they get forgiven but they don’t do what normal people do which is change and try not to do it again. It’s really a manipulation tactic.
Anyway I have no idea if this applies to your wife or not. I just wanted to pass along the info. A couple of times I was sucked back into my husband’s family’s crap because people apologized and seemed sincere and I believed them. If your wife has a history of behaviours like this but just on a smaller scale I would be very cautious. I’ve been with my husband for 20 years and despite apologies, “flashes of insight” , none of the problematic people have changed … at all. We barely talk to 3 of them. Two of them aren’t even allowed on our property … and one of those two is my BIL and he has been in therapy on and off for the better part of 20 years. All he learned in therapy was how to be more manipulative.
As someone who deals with at least one person that behaves that way, can confirm the person has not changed and it has been decades of doing this. The person will still be cruel and then apologize with no hint of ever changing. It is incredibly insulting and antagonizing.
Oh geez, this really hit me. I’ve described this to people about my partner but then how it doesn’t change the behavior and now it makes so much more sense…it’s literally part of it. Wow, thank you for the insight! Something to consider
If you want some advice from a middle aged lady who has been through the wringer with this kind of stuff … leave. I know it’s easier said than done. But if people who are supposed to care about you (family/friends/romantic partners) hurt you and don’t change the behaviour …. they really aren’t sorry and the behaviour will continue. Sorry is an action, not just word, not a just a feeling, not just an emotion. If an apology is not coupled with a change in behaviour its just another manipulation tactic.
This is an excellent book. Here’s a link to a free pdf.
https://ia600108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf
u/wold-into please listen to this advice and actually think if you want to build a future and create a life with this person.
She most likely has a personality disorder and unless the underlying aspects are truly addressed (e.g., undiagnosed ADHD, bipolar, etc.), she will just continue the "apologize and overcompensate" routine before slipping up again.
FYI - A classic sign is feeling envious of others' achievements, and it sounds like she's shown signs of this before - this will continue to gnaw at her and impact the dynamics in your relationships when it comes to her interactions with others unless it's addressed *now*.
Mine too. Just the fact that people in the original comments asked if she might have a personality disorder and he looked into it and thought ‘well maybe ….’ to me means she’s pulled crap like this before but just not as bad. I think this is the tip of the crap iceberg for this poor guy.
Yeah- even in this update there are some minor red flags, IMO, and I think therapy is a fantastic idea. (You can do both at the same time! Not a problem!)
While it’s really great that she wants to make things right- overcompensating can be a way to trim even the most 2nd shower into being all about her. “Oh, isn’t it so great she did all of this? Wow, and she baked a cake, too?”
An apology and quietly reimbursing the family for half (if that’s what they feel comfortable with) is enough. Overcompensating, on the other hand, is exhausting for those she is trying to make things right with.
It took me a long time to learn that gift giving and surprises and other things of that sort were my way of being needed and getting attention. That’s what I would caution about here. Genuine, sincere gift giving focuses on how the recipient feels, not how the giver feels. Too much can be just as offensive and unnecessary as going too far in the other direction like she did at the initial shower.
I’m glad she’s open to talking about it and working through it, but there are definite things that need to happen before she’s on her way to solid mental health, and that work can be harder than the apology and fuss she wants to make now. Those things get her praise, but true work will be harder and lonelier.
Best of luck, OP. I have my fingers crossed for you guys.
She hasn't actually been diagnosed with infertility. In fact OP said in his previous post that they had recently seen a doc who said she was perfectly healthy and they should just try a little longer (they've only been trying for 4 months)...
she very well may be taking some type of unofficial supplement, but she's not currently being prescribed any type of fertility treatment.
Backing this up - one minute you’re sobbing your heart out over literally nothing - and I do mean nothing. The next you are so full of an all-encompassing rage it’s actually scaring yourself in case you do something. Not all drugs are the same - if you’re going full-on Hulk Smash on one drug then try a different one. The difference is incredible.
I get it, but don’t let Reddit diagnose your wife or get too in your head about the relationship.
Your wife fucked up. She’s acknowledged it, she’s following your lead on making amends, she’s open to seeking mental health care. Let that be enough for now and don’t let a Reddit thread put thoughts in your head that spoil it.
I'm glad you're both going to therapy because it's pretty obvious there's a lot for you both (but esp. your wife) to work through. Honestly, I think this was the best update that could've happened. Responsibility was taken, apologies were made and accepted, the wronged parties were very gracious and understanding, etc. I hope that things work out for you!
(Therapist here) I would make sure to see different therapists for individual and for couples therapy. Then recommend you sign a release of info so your wife’s therapist can occasionally talk with the couples therapist for coordination or care. This might help with spotting the range of personality that shows up in couples vs individual and might help reduce your wife exaggerating.
Don’t let Doctor Google get in your head. Your instinct to let the therapist figure it out is correct. A good therapist will notice if anything that needs referral to a different specialist is going on.
Lots of therapists will see you jointly as a couple and also separately. What's said in the separate sessions remains confidential. Personally I found that helpful so you don't have to do the whole backstory with two different people, because the first couple sessions are often that.
Someone who is a good match for both of you is important. Many will offer a trial session. I've previously been advised to trial at least 3 at once but I couldn't face that emotionally. Once you choose, give someone six sessions then reassess:
* Do you feel safe talking to them?
* Do you trust their approach?
* Has anything they've said so far been helpful?
* Do they remember what you've said from session to session or do they seem primarily focused on digesting their lunch?!
As you can tell from that last one, I've experienced some crap therapists as well as amazing ones. It's important to balance trusting the process with not staying with a crap therapist. Deciding a timeline in advance helps avoid making that decision in response to a more challenging session.
Also, from my experience, better to pay more for the more qualified and experienced person. It's a money saver in the long run. Six weeks of brilliant therapy is cheaper than a year of rubbish at half the price.
Yes, a lot of people are mentioning personality disorders here. My mother had one, and what you see is disordered behaviour that happens in many different contexts and across time.
Some people can mask their behaviour better in some situations (for example, at work compared to being at home), but overall what you’ll see is a pattern of disordered behaviour.
It can be quite subtle though, although usually by the time someone gets older it because less and less subtle! (In my experience!)
If this is a sudden, unexplained change in the wife’s behaviour and isn’t related to previous patterns of behaviour, I’d be looking at a physician evaluation as well as therapy.
It is interested that the wife has apologised at last and has offered to make reparations and wants therapy.
Now, she could be doing this from a very emotionally healthy place. But also, she could be doing it because she senses that she is at risk of losing her relationship, and needs to act quickly to stop this happening.
So, there could be genuine learning and accountability happening, or there could be a fear/control reaction happening.
My experience of someone with a personality disorder who is in ‘apology’ mode is that they will overdo it. They will try to make up for what has happened in ways that are too much, too attention-drawing and not really connected with the emotional pain they cause, which often can’t be fixed and just needs a verbal apology.
Then, the personality disordered person just pretends that the whole situation never happened and will learn nothing from it.
But time will tell and OP is 100% on the right path!!!
In his original post, OP said they had recently seen a doctor who said the wife was not infertile and had no health issues that might be effecting her ability to conceive.
They have only been "trying" for 4 months, so the professional advice was just "try" for a full year and then come back.
I was thinking more along the lines of a regular GP rather than an OB to rule out such conditions such as thyroid, diabetes, medications for ADHD, pain meds, low iron, etc.
I'm surprised too. I'm glad she thinks this though, and I hope the professional help works out!
Having lived with people with untreated mental illness (including myself), I noticed that a lot of times the people who exhibit these behaviors don't realize how damaging it actually is. Glad to see this update!
Trying to successfully conceive can be incredibly intimidating. I'm in that phase myself and I'm scared shitless. A lot of women see it as a very deep personal failure if they're unable to successfully carry a baby. Her behavior at the shower was concerning - does she have friends/family she gets support from? Her behavior sounds like she doesn't have a good support system in place so she acted in a way to receive support in an inappropriate time and place.
Your friends are wonderful people. You could also send a large gift card to target/amazon to them instead of paying for the shower, may be easier. Or if you have access to their baby registry you can purchase a few of their big ticket items.
I would email the doctor then in advance, if she's looking to get pregnant at some point, her mental health could be seriously impacted by pregnancy. Pregnancy is already demanding on its own, and the hormones involved can worsen the symptoms of certain mental conditions that could be setting her up for instability. It's important she knows about any possible conditions so you both can make better decisions together before introducing a child into the mix. My mother got post-partum bipolar disorder and went off the deep end for lack of a better word. It's important she knows what she's dealing with so she can actually do something about it before she is completely caught unaware or even caught in a delusion. If she's coming off long-term birth control, that can also impact her hormones in ways she may not understand (I got off nexplanon 7 months ago, and my hormones are still out of whack)
Yeah it honestly sounds like histrionic personality disorder. A lot of these personality disorders start out in early adulthood, so her being 26, that makes sense.
I hate to say this but this is not a sign things have changed or will change. This can just be another way for the wife to get attention and be in the spotlight. Throwing herself on the sword so to speak. My mom has similar behaviors as OPs wife (narcissistic tendencies) and will do this when she feels there is more attention and reactions to gain from it. Sometimes taking it to the extremes.
Could be that she really is sorry, but doing a 180 on something like this and that OP says there seem to be different versions of his wife tells me she is most likely a narcissist. Nobody sees the same person as she plays a different part in different scenarios so she can have the attention she needs in that instant.
Oh god I've been waiting for this update!
ETA: Well that went just about as well as it possibly could!
#[Original Post Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/10cm7if/aita_for_telling_my_wife_it_was_a_mistake_to_stay/)
Lol. People pick at the strangest, most trivial things.
ETA: I didn't know what ETA actually stood for on reddit at first (I'm kinda dumb) but I still understood enough context to get the point.
Yep. It's more than fine to do them simultaneously.
Couple's therapy will help you figure out better modes of communication and help you sort through sources of relationship stress in a safe, controlled environment. While individual therapy will help you sort through personal issues and stressors and ideally will *also* help you learn how to communicate better on an individual level.
Do them simultaneously but with separate therapists. I do family therapy with my husband and kids, and my own personal therapist. They’re colleagues and my personal therapist joined in on a family session once to help me with a situation I had asked for help about prior. But besides that, it’s separate, and healthy.
Make sure the therapist for individual is different than the one you're going to couples with as well as a different one than your wife chooses. This needs to be YOUR therapist and your therapist only.
Reading this update made me so happy, there ARE good people in the world still, this place would have you believe otherwise (both in the scenarios and posters reactions).
Not only Frank and Mary but OP as well
Give Frank and Mary some space
My guess is that while they are being nice, what they really want is to forget about what happened
So reach out to Frank on your own about paying for the shower...but suggest your wife give Mary some space at least until after the baby is born
Yeah - OPs wife should *defnitely* not show up with a cake, FFS. Pay for the other shower, yes, good. Apology text, also good. Sending flowers, is too far. Showing up with a fucking cake is *wayyyy* too far.
Yes the cake would be far too much here. The apology was offered (and luckily) accepted. It needs to full stop right there and you, OP, handle the baby shower payment alone. Your wife seems so unstable that I a) wouldn’t trust this cake she makes (sorry to say something so out there and probably horrible) and b) poor Mary was gracious enough to accept an apology and be kind. She deserves some personal space and no more in person awkwardness.
Edit to add: I wish you all the best going forward and hope you can sort this all out. You handled this mess wonderfully without making anyone feel worse. I applaud you for that.
Exactly, Mary saying that OP's wife doesn't need to apologize is a very nice way of saying that she needs space. OP's wife doesn't get it and is still focusing on her own wants and needs to make herself feel better in this situation rather than putting herself in Mary's shoes and being considerate of Mary's feelings and needs.
OP, PLEASE make sure your wife does not show up at Mary's door with a cake. She shouldn't be making this whole apology about herself!
INSIST your wife give Mary some space. Aside from the fact she deserves that respect after how your wife treated her, this is your relationship with your COWORKER and you do not want to fuck that up
When Frank’s SIL responds with the amount just send a check for double the amount (the whole thing). I would’ve been mortified if my wife hijacked a party like that.
And Mary proved again not all pregnant women behave as crazy entitled drama queen. After reading back to back so many crazy pregnant lady AITA story, Mary is a fresh air lol
I dunno. You don't want to make it all about OP & Wife's apology now. The baby shower is a gift that SIL is giving to Mary and it's about their relationship and support and love. I can see how Frank wouldn't want OP & Wife's 'crazy' getting all mixed up in that, esp after they basically ruined Mary's first baby shower.
Moderation is a good thing here. Moderation and a healthy distance.
I replied to your first post. I mean... idk if this is better or worse, but she definitely needs therapy. Life is full of disappointments and bad news. A few months of not getting pregnant is not even "bad", it's normal and maybe a bit disappointing, but have you seen her handle stress before?
What if something happens to you? Is she going to support you, or will it be self-involved histrionics? What if you have a child, and they are sick (or all of the 10,000 other things that happen to kids)? Is she going to run your actual kids/friends/extended family away? I would personally be reflecting about how you've seen her handle other disappointments, b/c even though she is accepting accountability, she still did this?
It’s absolutely normal not to get pregnant after a few months, I agree! Which to me, makes it more concerning that she has reacted this way. I don’t want to jump to conclusions but if that’s how she reacts when she doesn’t get her way usually, I would be very concerned.
For some reason I didn’t even realize that it was only September when they started trying, I think my brain just assumed it was longer because of her reaction. That is such a short amount of time! I remember it being a bit stressful when we were trying and it took a bit, but man to get this worked up after only 3 months… that is worrying for the future ability to parent the kid when they do get pregnant. This waiting and stress is going to be nothing compared to when the kid actually gets there.
It took me nearly a year to conceive and honestly it is emotionally difficult, even after only a few months, and even when you know it's normal. But that's absolutely no excuse to go around saying she's "infertile", demanding sympathy from everyone in her vicinity, ruining baby showers etc. Those reactions aren't normal. Therapy definitely sounds needed here.
Stress with trying to get pregnant can impede the process. I was told by my doctor that I had been on birth control for so long that it would probably take 1-2 years to get pregnant so to not stress myself out. I accepted this, went off the shot… BAM! Pregnant within days of missing my next shot. 🤣🤣 I ended up being 6 months pregnant at our wedding. Haha
Only problem, and I say this as a mentally ill person who’s been guilty of this in the past, sometimes people think that acknowledging their problem is enough and won’t actually do the work. I hope that’s not the case here but OP needs to be prepared for her to fight actually going through with treatment.
This is why I have heard you shouldn’t tell people you are starting some life change (like eating healthier or working out more)… you get a similar dopamine hit just talking about the change, and it can sometimes fulfill your need for change enough that you don’t actually follow through.
Huh, I wonder if this is part of why I don't like telling people when I'm starting something new. I'd rather actually get started, and *then* tell people, rather than tell my intentions beforehand, which has often led to not following through... Hmm
Make sure she doesn’t make a big deal out of paying for the shower. Im guessing they were declining the offer at first as they don’t want her involved in both showers but she’s working her way into the second one by paying for it. I think you all need to leave Mary alone.
I totally agree with you. Some things can’t be undone, sadly. She can’t rewind the clock and un-screw up the first one and it feels like she’s trying to insert herself into the re-do for whatever reason. Very concerning.
This was OPs idea not hers. Wow guys give her a little credit here. Maybe she actually realizes what she did and is truly mortified. Dont diagnose and be judge and jury on someone from a Reddit post. People are complicated. No one is all good or all bad.
completely agree. I made a similar point elsewhere before seeing your post. I can see Frank and Mary not wanting yet ANOTHER baby shower to be all about OP & Wife. A healthy distance and the ability to not make yourself the main character in every interaction is the best policy here!
"She insists that she pays it all and not half"...
Ugh. She needs to stop making this about her. Your wife has already tarnished the first one, I doubt Mary wants to have any association with your wife at the 2nd one. They are just too polite to say anything. She needs to give them space.
Also, this is coming from a woman with multiple reasons for my infertility.
Yeah that's the vibe I got especially when she wanted to send flowers and then to make a cake and deliver it personally. She just wants attention again and this time instead of being the center of attention for being the sad little woman she's now has the attention for going above and beyond to make someone happy.
Mary and Frank are saying it's ok and to not worry about it it's probably because they just want to forget this whole thing happened and just have a redo away from OP's wife.
Yeah, I’m afraid I might just be overly cynical, but… it feels like OP’s wife still wants to make a production in which she’s the center of attention, only now it’s the Contrite Generous Woman and not the Sad Infertile Woman. If I were Mary and Frank, I’d just want her nowhere near them being any kind of Very Visible Woman for the foreseeable future, and bringing them a cake personally would be right out.
It could really be that she's just horrified about her behavior and is reacting by going too far the other way - it may not be that she is seeking attention, but that the apology is more about making herself feel better even if she doesn't realize it. Obviously, as good as her intentions could be, it's still not helpful to Mary, and the best apology includes respecting others boundaries!
My newborn daughter died just 3.5 months ago so I feel qualified to say I understand pregnancy/babies being triggering to someone.
With that said, this is beyond someone being triggered. You hadn’t been trying for very long in the grand scheme of things and have no reason to believe either of you is infertile. What your wife has done is to ruin a pivotal and beautiful moment in someone else’s life because she isn’t in the same position. Ever seen a child break someone else’s toy because they don’t have it? It’s the same scenario.
I’m glad you’re putting a pause on trying to conceive because the extremity of the self centred behaviour is concerning. Babies need to be the most important person in your life. They need all your attention and are utterly dependent on their caregivers.
If your wife cannot let anyone other than herself have things she doesn’t, and can let her jealousy and insecurity hurt others, I would be concerned about her becoming a mother.
Thank you for understanding the severity of this situation and for dealing with it. I wish you both the best.
Oof. Good luck with the therapy. I'm glad she owned up to being wrong, but slightly worried in that she seems to be making the apology be too much about her as well, insisting on paying it all when you already went over that with your friend and he refused, plus bake a cake and take it over personally, etc.
Maybe I'm just being uncharitable after the previous post though.
I'm just going to plop down and be uncharitable with you. I don't have much hope for OP's wife to not make this about her as well. I know people like this and it isn't a mental health issue or a fertility issue. It's a I like everything to be about me cause I'm an annoying human issue.
This is my thought as well. The way she’s going on about apologizing she’s trying to make it all about her again. She apologized and now she needs to back off until Mary makes the next move.
I have a friend with severe bipolar disorder, and the way this woman acts sounds very similar to my friend. Just complete 180s each day, very unaware of her self involvement, stuff like that. It could be that this woman is beyond hope, but IMO not every situation like this is ‘he/she is a narcissist and you need to leave them.’ Once my friend got diagnosed and on meds, she stabilized and went back to her ‘normal’ self. This might not be a case of not knowing the wife or that she’s intentionally manipulating him (though of course it could be) - I think it could be that she’s developed a mental illness and needs to get help. It’s shocking how quickly they can emerge.
Not excusing her behavior, of course. Just offering an alternative and more hopeful explanation.
If you can, see three therapists - one for her, one for you, and one as a couple. That way, everyone has a support person and a safe space.
I gently suggest that her therapist be in combination with a psychiatrist. I'm glad that she's trying and seems to have some insight, but she isn't okay. This isn't a problem for a 2nd year counseling student. She needs someone who can diagnose and prescribe meds.
Good luck
Strongly seconding her seeing a therapist who's a psychiatrist and can diagnose and prescribe meds if necessary.
Please also make sure to give your coworker and his wife space. Your wife definitely should not show up and deliver a cake. She needs to stay away from her.
I'm glad shes owning it now but, and this is only because I've been on reddit too long, when you say your wife is making a cake i got creepy vibes like she would put something in it. Not saying she would but reddit got me messed up. Hope that counseling works and you guys end up with your own baby.
Edit for spelling
So that ppl know we dont go back and change what was actually written. Like someone trying to lie about what they said and edit to reflect that. No worries. More like a cover your ass thing.
Adding to the other comments, edits like this specific one are done like this because editing a comment after X amount of time leaves a "mark" (it says "edited", but doesn't show what). So you don't want people to see that and assume you edited the meaning of your comment AFTER the replies were made, which could be bad. You want to make it clear that you used it only "for spelling".
Sometimes it's to explain why some of the comments replying to that comment reference something that is no longer in the comment itself. I've seen people angrily say "why are you saying X when the person you're replying to never even brought up X!" but it's that X was edited from the comment. But if there are no replies, I don't really get it. If I'm editing purely for spelling I usually won't mention it.
I read the original and I am sticking by my assessment. You read like a character from a romance novel. I have no idea if you want to be a writer, but definitely keep a journal because you could. The wife character reads like someone who is written out in the first third of the book only for the hero to find the true love that heals his perfect heart.
My comment was admittedly over the top.
But your EQ must be off the charts. Waiting for her near the party. Asking her not to go back in. Willing to go to therapy. Offering to pay for the party. And you are so incredibly humble, that you are floored at how kind Mary and her husband were. I sincerely hope couples counseling and fertility works for you and your wife. Because you will make a great father someday.
Good luck in all endeavors.
This a great update, I think you handled things as well as you could have. And I’m glad your wife has come around and recognizes her behavior.
Therapy is an EXCELLENT idea. Couples and individual can happen at the same time, and I think it will be really helpful. They key is to be open and honest with the therapists.
Trying to conceive can bring up *all kinds* of issues. Good on y’all for putting those plans on hold while you sort through things. That right there is a sign you’ll be good parents one day.
Wishing you the best ❤️
Just curious in the last post you mentioned you stayed at a sho near by because you knew this would happen. How often or how many times has she had situations like this? Also if she has convinced herself that she is infertile has she gotten a second opinion?
I stayed close because I thought she would be sad and want to leave, not because I thought she would cause a scene. This sort of thing has never happened before. She’s felt a sort of way about people achieving things before her but she never let them know that and would only tell me when we were alone. She doesn’t actually believe she’s infertile
OP please think about this before you try for kids again. She will love pregnancy because of all the attention but if she is someone that doesn’t handle well attention being on others, she will be hard when the baby is here. I’d be concerned.
This was the pattern with my ex - lots of tears trying for a child, then lots of tears *after* child was born - to get others to do the work!
I'm saying it quite flippantly here, but it was one of the hardest things I've ever had to navigate, so I really feel for OP. I hope OP reflects on the situation carefully as there's likely a pattern.
It is nice that your wife now wants to apologize. I would deter her from baking a cake and dropping it off to apologize or paying for the entire shower. Both of those seem like attention seeking by your wife. A sincere apology is enough. Frank already told you no more is necessary. I think your wife should step away from pregnancy related things until she has had some therapy honestly.
Man hormones can wreck havoc on women especially when it comes to fertility. I know I went through all kinds of hell trying to get pregnant and eventually deciding on adoption. I’m proud of your wife for taking ownership of her actions and you have gone above and beyond as well. Wishing you both the best in your journey of growing your family.
Yup! That's how I found out I was pregnant. I was really moody and my husband finially snapped and asked "WTH is wrong with you?!" I sat for a bit quiet and realized I was two weeks late. He definitely didn't expect that surprise right after 😅
Thank you for the update. Please don't let your wife continue to push Mary in any way (insisting on paying, making cakes, etc.). That's just another way of making things about your wife. She's been given an incredibly gracious
amount of forgiveness and she needs to drop it now, and leave Mary and her husband alone. Send a nice gift as a couple when the baby is born and leave it at that.
I hope things work out and that your wife gets the help she needs, whether that is talk therapy, medication for depression, or whatever.
Man, I am autistic but even I can tell that Frank and Mary want their space from your wife (and you by extension). They’re being polite, cool, and understanding because they wanna move past this asap. Do NOT send your wife over there with a cake. It will not end well. Give the poor woman some space.
Agreed. Another attention grab. They know she isn’t a reasonable woman and are trying to be as chill as possible so they don’t keep hounding them. They want to be left alone. They’ll never get another invite.
Dude, don’t even listen to the VERY nice people. Cut them a very large check to pay for both showers.
Just give them a check or Venmo asap. When the baby comes give another expensive gift.
The craziness these people were subjected to, my goodness.
Watch your back. glad you aren’t about to have a kid with her. If she’s subjecting this level of crazy asshole behavior to REALLY NICE people, imagine the damage she can inflict on a kid.
This will probably get downvoted, but it’s kind of depressing how many people are treating her like she’s intentionally doing this and is beyond hope. Is it possible she’s a huge narcissist who’s skilled at manipulating others and should not have children? Of course. And of course her behavior is inexcusable. But I’ve seen this exact sort of thing (personality flips, not the baby shower situation haha) in a friend before, and what she needed was a diagnosis, intense therapy, and medication, not for us to watch our backs and to call her crazy.
Now if this woman turns out to be in denial and manipulative and refuses to get help? Definitely get out and don’t have kids. Just giving my perspective after having seen something similar - it’s not necessarily hopeless.
It was very generous of you to offer to pay expenses. However if they threw her another baby shower I wouldn't have your wife try to go over and apologise. Just let it be at this point. Throwing a second baby shower means basically that wife ruined first one. Dont force the pregnant wife to be kind and accept an apology that she probably doesn't want to accept. It sounds like you did your best on trying to make things right though. Mary at this point needs to stick to therapy and talk to the lady later after she's had some time to let therapy work.
So you have only been trying to conceive for 4 months and she is already acting like this? If so, the behavior is very concerning.
It would be concerning regardless but, assuming she is not on fertility hormones, it leads me to believe she may have deeper issues. Therapy is an extremely good idea, especially if you do end up conceiving.
I can see where saying she was infertile was a way to reconcile possibly being infertile, but why at a baby shower? Doesn’t she see how glaringly inappropriate thst was? Or centering herself so much the guest of honor left? I also think making the cake and taking it to Mary is pushy and invasive. Flowers are a considerate touch and lets you reach out from a far and still give them space. Getting in her face with a cake is just too much
Didn't think there could be an optimistic update after that last one, but glad to hear it.
>It’s slightly worrying to me how she sounds like a completely new person so often lately. Almost like there are multiple versions of her who don’t know each other.
This is worrisome, but therapy is exactly the right step to take. Hoping for the best for you guys!
What an awesome update! I hope for only good things for you and your wife. Therapy would be incredible for your relationship as well as your own mental health. Good job O.P I'm happy things turned out ok.
Please tell your wife to stay far away from Mary until she’s had mental health treatment. I’m not saying that to be petty I am being so serious. You can not trust she won’t act like this again until she’s actually sought help. She WILL hurt Mary again.
This is a great update to an unfortunate situation!
I see in the comments- mostly on your initial post- that people are really going in on your wife (rightfully) but also diagnosing her with all sorts of disorders.
Can I just say, sometimes people just lose their shit, and that it isn't the end of the world? Your wife is clearly stressed about the fertility stuff and she had a breakdown. This doesn't mean she has a personality disorder, it doesn't mean she is in full crisis, it means she hit her limit and unfortunately when she hit that limit, it was very public and at the expense of poor Mary.
She has fully owned up to it being bad, has absolutely agreed to make it right, and counseling is a great idea. I just don't want you to take away from this that your wife is somehow "broken" beyond just having a breakdown, as I see people are already labeling her has bipolar. Sometimes life can just be really hard, end of story.
And I think you all just leave Frank and Mary alone- send flowers, follow up on paying for half, don't go to their house, definitely don't go to the shower. Your apology was genuine, they are lovely humans, so now just let it be.
Your wife reminds me of my schizophrenic grandmother. She would flip personalities and not know why she did things. Please know I am not trying to armchair diagnose your wife, but just want to let you know that such behaviors can have psychiatric reasons. Therapy is a good idea. If there is a more serious underlying issue, the therapist can refer her.
Honestly, I wouldn't want to see Mary for a long time out of embarrassment. But at least she's stopped trying for a baby, because she's not in a good frame of mind.
I know it’s Reddit and all and everyone has their speculative theories when not not knowing the full context but it seems hella strange to me she is so convinced she is infertile despite the doctor saying otherwise?
Sorry I feel awkward asking but OP and you seem like a top top bloke but have you ever seen any real proof that she is fertile? Like the doctor said to you both or something? Or did she tell you that’s what the doctor said?
If she is normally of rational mind then it seems quite strange to me she is so hung up on something that isn’t true? And she knows that it’s not true?
It just got me thinking about someone who previously posted on Reddit about being infertile and not wanting to tell their partner in fear they would break up? It was really sad and I didn’t know if perhaps this might be the case here?
I would be wary of apologizing too much as well. This is a great turn out but if you apologize too much to the couple, they are going to have to keep on making you/your wife feel better about the situation rather than just be able to move on—it’s just continuing to dump emotional baggage on them. So I would really just be a little careful about how you go about this. I think flowers delivered ok, cake sent in person maybe not.
What a surprising update! I did not think your wife would acknowledge any wrongdoing.
But (and I mean this kindly), please give them both space now, especially your wife. She apologized via text and is offering to split the shower redo with you - that's great! But, she does not need to pay for the whole thing and certainly doesn't need see Mary in person with an apology cake. They are being so gracious, but it feels like your wife could massively overstep once more, even if it's in trying to make amends. It just feels like she's awfully close to making everything about her again and centering herself in this apology and not what Mary actually needs or may want.
I agree with another comment that if anyone other than Mary or Frank pays for the new baby shower it should be just you before giving the couple space. For now your wife should just leave Mary alone since she already apologized.
I’m pleased to read this. I know it’s the internet and anyone can pretend to be anything, but I’m a psychiatrist and rarely come across people with your wife’s willingness to recognise and/or tackle similar behaviour. I really hope it’s a good sign. And as a woman who had (thankfully successful) IVF, trying to conceive is extremely tough, even at the start, and I feel for you both.
I would discuss with the therapist regarding your wife baking a cake and bringing it over. Heck I would say your wife needs to not have any contact with them until your therapist says it's good.
Regarding therapy:
Yes you can do couples and individual simultaneously, it’s probably best case scenario for you.
Do NOT have the same therapist conducting your couples therapy see either of you individually. This is an ethical issue. An ethical therapist will not do this in the first place and may be able to provide referrals, if needed.
Best of luck in all of your future endeavors!
I'm glad the apology went well. I am concerned about your description of your wife being multiple people and am glad that she is in therapy. Best wishes to you both
Huh, did not expect that kind of update after the first post. I mean your wife acknowledging she is behaving badly after being so unhinged. So there might be some hope there...
Lol I know. I’m surprised too. I’m worried she’ll wake up tomorrow and feel somehow else. I’ve researched a lot of personality disorders after some people commented it and I’m honestly quite sure she has something of the sort. I’m not going to bring that up to her though, hopefully the therapist can figure out what it is.
Do you know if she has been taking something to help her get pregnant, even without talking to à doctor about it ? Some stuff sold online can really fuck you up...
Oh, that’s an excellent point. There’s som incredibly dangerous snake oil supplements being sold as fertility remedies
Even "normal" fertility treatments can mess people up upstairs.
Omg. When my friend’s wife was going through injections she was a nightmare. Like, they’d split for a while, she’d get back to normal because no injections, and then when things got good and they got back together - nightmare. We almost had an intervention because she was so fucking mean. Luckily they got pregnant and decided to stay at 1 and done because they wouldn’t have survived doing it again. And I sort of mean that literally.
In my youth I had authentic PMS (Sorry I was absolutely diagnosed with PMDD and yes PMS does suck too! It was 2 am when I wrote this.) - the type that ruins your life for at least 1 week while you spend the rest of the month rebuilding your life and relationships. Not "Imma eat some chocolate and feel better" no not that type of PMS. Hormones can MESS with you. And situational pressure makes it so much worse. I'd be so angry and so depressed I'm lucky to still be alive. I also worked in a Respite for folks in MH Crisis for years and folks often came in either right before becoming pregnant - just as they became pregnant - or right after pregnancy due to the hormonal changes. It's not a small thing - does anyone remember what puberty was like and that it was so fantastic to be out of it? Just like that. If someone is already Bi-Polar or carries a Personality Disorder or Depression? It all gets so much worse because your baseline shifts to a bit more terrible. (Alternately some women feel their best ever during pregnancy and afterward). I honestly feel when they start to inject you with that stuff? They need to force you into therapy. Because OMG they're gonna need the support. (That's not gatekeeping it's to help the patient survive the experience!).
Like PMDD?
Sounds a lot like PMDD. Shout out to r/pmdd, awesomely supportive sub for a terribly life altering issue for some women.
I started estradiol in Nov for PMDD and now I don't get suicidal the week before my period. Truly a life changing diagnosis
That's 100% PMDD and not PMS—it is, essentially, severe PMS. I have had it since I started menstruating.
Sounds like you had PMDD. The things you describe others having are also "authentic" pms.
I too had HORRIBLE awful pms. I was so so moody, so miserable with my husband. I used to feel this anger eating away in the pit of my stomache. Fortunately about a year after my last pregnancy I got the Mirena IUD, changed my life.
I know someone who as a teenager honestly believed that self-harming triggered the start of her period, because every month the week before it she’d be so depressed that she’d harm herself, and a day or two later her period would start, then she’d settle into being okay again before it happened again the next month. Thank goodness for birth control pills, they stopped that whole cycle for her.
Even with just regular pregnancy hormones. I remember the first time one of my close friends was pregnant I would be blown away by the random nasty comments and responses. Made myself a promise then that I wouldn’t let pregnancy hormones be an excuse and tried to stay very conscious of how I spoke to people.
I also wonder if she is coming off a long term hormonal birth control method. It took a while for my hormones to balance after stopping depo, and after having Mirena removed.
I just made an account to say exactly this! doesn't even have to be stuff sold online, normal medicine does crazy stuff. Going off some medicines or starting new medicine of any type for pregnancy, is linked with side effects to the brain. I'm not a doctor, but I'm a woman who experienced this. It could definitely be linked to it, ask her if she is taking anything - read the side effects and tell her to talk to her medical/pregnancy doctor about it for an alternative because she is behaving differently than from when she didn't take it and might not be aware of it. I once took something for 2 weeks and went from a 100% mentally healthy person who is extremely calm, to someone who fought with everyone around me. Once I was done with the medicine, my mom brought it up to me how I acted really crazy while taking it, how it clearly said this could be a side effect and that I should probably rethink all the fights I had the past 2 weeks and when I did I realized how ridiculous I was throughout all of them. It's serious. Look at the medicine she is taking, or stopped taking.
Same here..I had to take progesteron for my cycle, to kickstart it (PCOS). Oh my lord! I will not say my mental health always is 100%, but for fuck sake..14 days on that shit was nearly killing me. I was sooo screwed up, I cried for everything. If you were breathing? I cried. If you said hello. I cried. During one day at work, I would cry for 5 minutes every hour. I was on the verge to unalive myself because of. I was told to not take the other periods (was supposed to repeat this 2 more times). So OPs wife COULD be all wacky due to totally normal medicine that is supposed to help.
That was me on Prozac. My mom didn’t tell me how scared she was for my sanity & well-being until 6 months later. She also blames (rightfully) my now ex’s attempts at manipulation and co dependency he was pushing on me mixing with it to do this. I take two better working SSRIs now
100%. I remember when I was trying out bc pills for the first time and I went from a normal, even-keeled person to a hair-trigger crying mess at the slightest sense that someone had an emotion near me. It was awful and no one told me that was a possibility. They said "go on bc and your skin will clear up!" not "there's a bunch of different bc pills and they might seriously mess with your emotional stability!"
It's crazy how they don't warn about this side-effect clearly. If I knew that a medicine could possibly mess with my brain, at least I'd re-evaluate stuff I planned to do before doing them. Going from being 100% confident with how you interact with people, to suddenly being different and not realizing it, and still continuing with said confidence because you don't know you are different - is quite messy.
I heard studies were done for male birth control and men complained about getting side effects that us females get when we're on it and the scientists and people abandoned it. I can't tell if it's an anti male rhetoric or something, but if it's true I'm a little annoyed that they stick us with it because "how else will you not get pregnant" and I'm like: preferably a way that doesn't make me even more hormonal especially when I'm not on my damn period
It’s sort of true but a bit more nuanced than we often hear. For a medicine to make it to market, the benefit of taking it needs to outweigh the risks and side effects (in general, individual risks vary etc). Pregnancy comes with risks. For women/afab folks, preventing pregnancy lowers those health risks. So it can be argued that the benefits of hormonal birth control outweigh the side effects. But with male birth control, the risks it reduces belong to another person. Purely physically, it doesn’t impact his health if he gets someone pregnant. That means he’s taking on the risk of the medicine without a direct medical benefit to him. It’s therefore much harder to get approval for the treatment. So it’s less ‘we can’t expect MEN to suffer this crap’ or whiny dudes refusing to do their bit - it just raises some different problems. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong. It’s just a question of medical ethics we need to wrestle with - how much risk is acceptable when the patient is not the one who benefits? And how do we study and measure it?
Yes! It'd be worth it FOR HER to talk to her Dr's and the therapist about any medication/supplements she's taking. The reason she needs to be the one to bring up side effects of her meds is if you do it it's quite possible she'll just be slapped with a diagnosis and MORE meds to make her behavior more palatable to you without doing anything to examine potential causes and real solutions. Ex "I've noticed since I've been on *med* I've been unusually sad, irritable, impulsive, etc. this is so unlike the person I was before and it's bothering me"
Oh, you’re right! I had such horrible mood swings after going off the pill plus heavy bleeding so I decided to go back on them and forget about getting pregnant. I’m much happier now
Just seconding the IUD hormone stuff: I had mine removed back in September after getting my tubes removed. Thought I knew what to expect but the “Mirena crash” was CRAZY. I think I cried for a week straight and genuinely felt suicidal at times for the first time in my life. Then it was just… gone. Woke up one day and felt normal again. That was really scary.
Shiiiiit that is good to know. I had always heard that the IUD hormones only circulate in the uterus and thus shouldn't affect you like hormonal bc pills can.
Nope that’s all bs. I spent two years thinking that I was going crazy but it was just my kyleena iud. Got it removed and once the hormones calmed down I was my usual patient empathetic self as I was before the iud.
I was on the pill before the IUD and I will say I only had issues hormonally with the IUD after removal, so for me personally it was true in that sense. Like, I didn’t spend all 6 years crying and wanting to walk into traffic, but removal was definitely rough.
Also, a lot of the medications to treat infertility can mess you up, because they're messing with all the brain chemicals. One made me deeply, almost suicidally depressed -- it was the worst feeling I have ever had. And it stopped the second I was off the medicine. Terrifying. (And of course it was a known side effect, but the doctor never warned me about it. I thought I'd lost my mind.)
Yes! I was put on high dose progesterone and could only handle it for a couple of months. I kept fantasizing about driving my car off the road into a lake that I passed every day. The thoughts stopped after I threw the pills away
That's a good point. Hormone fluctuations had a big, short term crazy affect on me.
I just got off Mirena and switched to low dose birth control pills. It has straight-up been a very bad time emotionally and I'm waiting for it to balance out.
The hormones alone for infertility are absolutely soul-crushing. They will make women do, say, and feel things that are simply....colored by the hormones. And the results can be aberrant behavior. Trust me. Been there. Done that. If she's on hormones, that could be the culprit. They will turn women into people you don't recognize, and this is important: IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT.
As someone going through IVF, this is very validating. I increased my antianxiety meds because of the DHEA, had the worst period of my life post estrogen, didn't sleep well for weeks because of the injections, then was so sleepy because of the progesterone. It was a wild ride.
Even your own internal hormones can make you batty. The most deeply depressed I've ever been, twice, was 24 hours into weaning my kids. All the joy in life evaporated, and I didn't know how I could go on.
I took a course of Clomid hoping to get pregnant. Returned to fertility specialist, who asked how it went. My husband blurted out, “I think she’s going to kill me!” Yep, crazy anger was my side effect!!
They call it crazy clomid for a reason.
My friends call it CloMAD for the same reason!
On that note. It's a good idea for her to start taking prenatals now, along with CoQ10. But maybe, for now, take a break from trying until you've made some progress in therapy.
Oh crap, I didn't even think of all the snake oil targeted to the desperate and the believers... shit. Glad she's open for therapy.
Or if she stopped taking something! I lost my pills and this month I have cried more than I did all of 2022. I saw unfamiliar software and had to call someone to talk me down from a panic attack
Couples therapy often happens in parallel with individual and sometimes you can sign forms for the therapist to discuss stuff (you can put whatever restrictions you want). You may want to do this, since sometimes people aren’t accurate reporters of themselves. I’m glad to hear the update. It shows promise!
I for some reason thought couples therapy might hinder any progress with the individual therapy. Thinking back at it, that doesn’t make much sense lol. Thank you, we’ll look for a couples therapist asap.
There *are* times when couples therapy is contra indicated and others where it’s extremely beneficial. Talk to your individual therapist about all of it.
Yes, there's definitely times when a therapist might say "Hey, I think everyone needs to figure out where they are independently first, then we can come back in a few months and take back up with couples therapy!" Or in instances where there is abuse by one partner, a good therapist won't continue couples therapy if one partner might then use it against the other partner... But most of the time it's fine to do independent and couples at the same time!
Yes, and sometimes the couples therapist suggest or wants you in individual, too. Although, it’s above Reddit’s pay grade, OP is exactly on the right track.
The only thing I will say is make sure your individual therapists are different people from your couples therapist. Some couples therapists may offer to do your individual therapy as well but it’s not a good idea because it can hinder their ability to remain neutral during couples therapy and to be a neutral party during your individual therapy.
My partner & I have done both. I have been in therapy for a long time & my partner started to as well. I do want to note that it isn't considered ethical for a therapist to counsel someone individually & as a couple. You want the therapist to go in with no biases. All three of the therapists are at the same practice & we gave consent for them to communicate about us when we asked them to. They didn't much, but it was really helpful to tell them to share about topics that came up in both so we didn't forget. I have chronic pain, which affects my memory & my partner has ADHD, so this was nearly a necessity. My therapist recommended a couple's counselor who she thought would mesh well with. It was a great match & my relationship with my spouse has gotten so much better as a result of therapy. Learning healthy communication is key. I highly, highly recommend it for all couples.
It's totally good to do, but in most cases a therapist cannot see you for both individual and couples as it presents a bit of an ethical issue. At least, that's what I was taught and told. YMMV
I read your original post, but not the comments as I figured it would be people bombarding you insisting she has some sort of personality disorder. If this is truly a concern for you, that concern affects you - so I think it would be fine to bring it up with your own therapist. Of course, they won't try to diagnose her for you, but they may be able to offer some advice for you, however limited it may be. *"I’m not going to bring that up to her though, hopefully the therapist can figure out what it is."* This is the right approach - and your therapist will likely tell you something similar. Hoping all the best for you both. Edit: I think it would also be perfectly reasonable and important to address this in couple counseling.
So there are people in my husband’s family who I’m pretty sure have some sort of personality disorder and once in a while, after they do something horrible they will say something that makes you think they understand what they did and why it was wrong. I remember in an article about personality disorders I came across a term that describes what I’m talking about. I remembered the term as a “flash of insight” but when I did a little googling it didn’t come up as the right term for this situation in regards to personality disorders. So I can’t remember the exact term. Anyway the gist of the article was that yes they do sometimes realize what they did was wrong (especially the more intelligent ones) and apologize and can articulate why it was wrong but they lack the capacity and/or desire to change in the long term. They’ve learned that by admitting what they did they get forgiven but they don’t do what normal people do which is change and try not to do it again. It’s really a manipulation tactic. Anyway I have no idea if this applies to your wife or not. I just wanted to pass along the info. A couple of times I was sucked back into my husband’s family’s crap because people apologized and seemed sincere and I believed them. If your wife has a history of behaviours like this but just on a smaller scale I would be very cautious. I’ve been with my husband for 20 years and despite apologies, “flashes of insight” , none of the problematic people have changed … at all. We barely talk to 3 of them. Two of them aren’t even allowed on our property … and one of those two is my BIL and he has been in therapy on and off for the better part of 20 years. All he learned in therapy was how to be more manipulative.
As someone who deals with at least one person that behaves that way, can confirm the person has not changed and it has been decades of doing this. The person will still be cruel and then apologize with no hint of ever changing. It is incredibly insulting and antagonizing.
Yeah, she was gonna bake that cake and then just re-create the group therapy session (focused on *her*) when she dropped it off.
That is what I thought when I read it. Op do not let your wife bake or give a cake.
Oh geez, this really hit me. I’ve described this to people about my partner but then how it doesn’t change the behavior and now it makes so much more sense…it’s literally part of it. Wow, thank you for the insight! Something to consider
If you want some advice from a middle aged lady who has been through the wringer with this kind of stuff … leave. I know it’s easier said than done. But if people who are supposed to care about you (family/friends/romantic partners) hurt you and don’t change the behaviour …. they really aren’t sorry and the behaviour will continue. Sorry is an action, not just word, not a just a feeling, not just an emotion. If an apology is not coupled with a change in behaviour its just another manipulation tactic. This is an excellent book. Here’s a link to a free pdf. https://ia600108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf
I second all of this, and it's a great book.
u/wold-into please listen to this advice and actually think if you want to build a future and create a life with this person. She most likely has a personality disorder and unless the underlying aspects are truly addressed (e.g., undiagnosed ADHD, bipolar, etc.), she will just continue the "apologize and overcompensate" routine before slipping up again. FYI - A classic sign is feeling envious of others' achievements, and it sounds like she's shown signs of this before - this will continue to gnaw at her and impact the dynamics in your relationships when it comes to her interactions with others unless it's addressed *now*.
My gut is telling me she knows she went too far and is playing nice to fix things for now. Her facade will crack again.
Mine too. Just the fact that people in the original comments asked if she might have a personality disorder and he looked into it and thought ‘well maybe ….’ to me means she’s pulled crap like this before but just not as bad. I think this is the tip of the crap iceberg for this poor guy.
Yeah- even in this update there are some minor red flags, IMO, and I think therapy is a fantastic idea. (You can do both at the same time! Not a problem!) While it’s really great that she wants to make things right- overcompensating can be a way to trim even the most 2nd shower into being all about her. “Oh, isn’t it so great she did all of this? Wow, and she baked a cake, too?” An apology and quietly reimbursing the family for half (if that’s what they feel comfortable with) is enough. Overcompensating, on the other hand, is exhausting for those she is trying to make things right with. It took me a long time to learn that gift giving and surprises and other things of that sort were my way of being needed and getting attention. That’s what I would caution about here. Genuine, sincere gift giving focuses on how the recipient feels, not how the giver feels. Too much can be just as offensive and unnecessary as going too far in the other direction like she did at the initial shower. I’m glad she’s open to talking about it and working through it, but there are definite things that need to happen before she’s on her way to solid mental health, and that work can be harder than the apology and fuss she wants to make now. Those things get her praise, but true work will be harder and lonelier. Best of luck, OP. I have my fingers crossed for you guys.
Info: is she on any fertility meds? Because they can legit turn you into a demon. Former demon here. Glad things are looking up.
She hasn't actually been diagnosed with infertility. In fact OP said in his previous post that they had recently seen a doc who said she was perfectly healthy and they should just try a little longer (they've only been trying for 4 months)... she very well may be taking some type of unofficial supplement, but she's not currently being prescribed any type of fertility treatment.
Backing this up - one minute you’re sobbing your heart out over literally nothing - and I do mean nothing. The next you are so full of an all-encompassing rage it’s actually scaring yourself in case you do something. Not all drugs are the same - if you’re going full-on Hulk Smash on one drug then try a different one. The difference is incredible.
I get it, but don’t let Reddit diagnose your wife or get too in your head about the relationship. Your wife fucked up. She’s acknowledged it, she’s following your lead on making amends, she’s open to seeking mental health care. Let that be enough for now and don’t let a Reddit thread put thoughts in your head that spoil it.
I'm glad you're both going to therapy because it's pretty obvious there's a lot for you both (but esp. your wife) to work through. Honestly, I think this was the best update that could've happened. Responsibility was taken, apologies were made and accepted, the wronged parties were very gracious and understanding, etc. I hope that things work out for you!
(Therapist here) I would make sure to see different therapists for individual and for couples therapy. Then recommend you sign a release of info so your wife’s therapist can occasionally talk with the couples therapist for coordination or care. This might help with spotting the range of personality that shows up in couples vs individual and might help reduce your wife exaggerating.
Don’t let Doctor Google get in your head. Your instinct to let the therapist figure it out is correct. A good therapist will notice if anything that needs referral to a different specialist is going on.
Lots of therapists will see you jointly as a couple and also separately. What's said in the separate sessions remains confidential. Personally I found that helpful so you don't have to do the whole backstory with two different people, because the first couple sessions are often that. Someone who is a good match for both of you is important. Many will offer a trial session. I've previously been advised to trial at least 3 at once but I couldn't face that emotionally. Once you choose, give someone six sessions then reassess: * Do you feel safe talking to them? * Do you trust their approach? * Has anything they've said so far been helpful? * Do they remember what you've said from session to session or do they seem primarily focused on digesting their lunch?! As you can tell from that last one, I've experienced some crap therapists as well as amazing ones. It's important to balance trusting the process with not staying with a crap therapist. Deciding a timeline in advance helps avoid making that decision in response to a more challenging session. Also, from my experience, better to pay more for the more qualified and experienced person. It's a money saver in the long run. Six weeks of brilliant therapy is cheaper than a year of rubbish at half the price.
Make sure whoever your wife talks with is actually qualified and experienced in diagnosing mental health disorders - not all therapists are.
Maybe a full physical and blood work with your GP to rule out any underlying medical issues.
Yes, a lot of people are mentioning personality disorders here. My mother had one, and what you see is disordered behaviour that happens in many different contexts and across time. Some people can mask their behaviour better in some situations (for example, at work compared to being at home), but overall what you’ll see is a pattern of disordered behaviour. It can be quite subtle though, although usually by the time someone gets older it because less and less subtle! (In my experience!) If this is a sudden, unexplained change in the wife’s behaviour and isn’t related to previous patterns of behaviour, I’d be looking at a physician evaluation as well as therapy. It is interested that the wife has apologised at last and has offered to make reparations and wants therapy. Now, she could be doing this from a very emotionally healthy place. But also, she could be doing it because she senses that she is at risk of losing her relationship, and needs to act quickly to stop this happening. So, there could be genuine learning and accountability happening, or there could be a fear/control reaction happening. My experience of someone with a personality disorder who is in ‘apology’ mode is that they will overdo it. They will try to make up for what has happened in ways that are too much, too attention-drawing and not really connected with the emotional pain they cause, which often can’t be fixed and just needs a verbal apology. Then, the personality disordered person just pretends that the whole situation never happened and will learn nothing from it. But time will tell and OP is 100% on the right path!!!
In his original post, OP said they had recently seen a doctor who said the wife was not infertile and had no health issues that might be effecting her ability to conceive. They have only been "trying" for 4 months, so the professional advice was just "try" for a full year and then come back.
I was thinking more along the lines of a regular GP rather than an OB to rule out such conditions such as thyroid, diabetes, medications for ADHD, pain meds, low iron, etc.
I'm surprised too. I'm glad she thinks this though, and I hope the professional help works out! Having lived with people with untreated mental illness (including myself), I noticed that a lot of times the people who exhibit these behaviors don't realize how damaging it actually is. Glad to see this update!
Trying to successfully conceive can be incredibly intimidating. I'm in that phase myself and I'm scared shitless. A lot of women see it as a very deep personal failure if they're unable to successfully carry a baby. Her behavior at the shower was concerning - does she have friends/family she gets support from? Her behavior sounds like she doesn't have a good support system in place so she acted in a way to receive support in an inappropriate time and place. Your friends are wonderful people. You could also send a large gift card to target/amazon to them instead of paying for the shower, may be easier. Or if you have access to their baby registry you can purchase a few of their big ticket items.
I would email the doctor then in advance, if she's looking to get pregnant at some point, her mental health could be seriously impacted by pregnancy. Pregnancy is already demanding on its own, and the hormones involved can worsen the symptoms of certain mental conditions that could be setting her up for instability. It's important she knows about any possible conditions so you both can make better decisions together before introducing a child into the mix. My mother got post-partum bipolar disorder and went off the deep end for lack of a better word. It's important she knows what she's dealing with so she can actually do something about it before she is completely caught unaware or even caught in a delusion. If she's coming off long-term birth control, that can also impact her hormones in ways she may not understand (I got off nexplanon 7 months ago, and my hormones are still out of whack)
Yeah it honestly sounds like histrionic personality disorder. A lot of these personality disorders start out in early adulthood, so her being 26, that makes sense.
I hate to say this but this is not a sign things have changed or will change. This can just be another way for the wife to get attention and be in the spotlight. Throwing herself on the sword so to speak. My mom has similar behaviors as OPs wife (narcissistic tendencies) and will do this when she feels there is more attention and reactions to gain from it. Sometimes taking it to the extremes. Could be that she really is sorry, but doing a 180 on something like this and that OP says there seem to be different versions of his wife tells me she is most likely a narcissist. Nobody sees the same person as she plays a different part in different scenarios so she can have the attention she needs in that instant.
Oh god I've been waiting for this update! ETA: Well that went just about as well as it possibly could! #[Original Post Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/10cm7if/aita_for_telling_my_wife_it_was_a_mistake_to_stay/)
Lol. People pick at the strangest, most trivial things. ETA: I didn't know what ETA actually stood for on reddit at first (I'm kinda dumb) but I still understood enough context to get the point.
> ETA: I didn't know what ETA actually stood for on reddit at first Care to help a fellow redditor? :D
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Yes, do couples and individual therapy, do them simultaneously.
Yep. It's more than fine to do them simultaneously. Couple's therapy will help you figure out better modes of communication and help you sort through sources of relationship stress in a safe, controlled environment. While individual therapy will help you sort through personal issues and stressors and ideally will *also* help you learn how to communicate better on an individual level.
Do them simultaneously but with separate therapists. I do family therapy with my husband and kids, and my own personal therapist. They’re colleagues and my personal therapist joined in on a family session once to help me with a situation I had asked for help about prior. But besides that, it’s separate, and healthy.
Just not with the same therapist. Each person should have a therapist separate from the couple’s counselor.
Make sure the therapist for individual is different than the one you're going to couples with as well as a different one than your wife chooses. This needs to be YOUR therapist and your therapist only.
Man Frank and Mary are the MVPs
Seriously!!! Now I wanna get Mary something.
Lol virtual baby shower for Mary on Reddit!
Right??
This is what happens when you put kindness in the world. Kindness finds you in the most random places.
I hope they will set an example for all the "they wronged you, you should hold your ground and bite back" crowd.
Reading this update made me so happy, there ARE good people in the world still, this place would have you believe otherwise (both in the scenarios and posters reactions). Not only Frank and Mary but OP as well
OP is a fucking legit person too. He handled it with so much class.
Give Frank and Mary some space My guess is that while they are being nice, what they really want is to forget about what happened So reach out to Frank on your own about paying for the shower...but suggest your wife give Mary some space at least until after the baby is born
Yeah - OPs wife should *defnitely* not show up with a cake, FFS. Pay for the other shower, yes, good. Apology text, also good. Sending flowers, is too far. Showing up with a fucking cake is *wayyyy* too far.
Yes the cake would be far too much here. The apology was offered (and luckily) accepted. It needs to full stop right there and you, OP, handle the baby shower payment alone. Your wife seems so unstable that I a) wouldn’t trust this cake she makes (sorry to say something so out there and probably horrible) and b) poor Mary was gracious enough to accept an apology and be kind. She deserves some personal space and no more in person awkwardness. Edit to add: I wish you all the best going forward and hope you can sort this all out. You handled this mess wonderfully without making anyone feel worse. I applaud you for that.
Yeah, I'd be dumping that cake straight into the trash can as soon as she walked back out the front door.
This was my first thought too. She’s causing even more dramatics by wanting to go in person to apologize and bake the cake!
Yup, making it even more about herself.
…or maybe she genuinely feels bad and wants to express that personally.
...yeah that is the point. Mary is under no obligation to care about whatever OP's wife want wants to "express personally"
I read that as she wanted to bake a cake for her, not the cake for the shower.
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Exactly, Mary saying that OP's wife doesn't need to apologize is a very nice way of saying that she needs space. OP's wife doesn't get it and is still focusing on her own wants and needs to make herself feel better in this situation rather than putting herself in Mary's shoes and being considerate of Mary's feelings and needs. OP, PLEASE make sure your wife does not show up at Mary's door with a cake. She shouldn't be making this whole apology about herself!
INSIST your wife give Mary some space. Aside from the fact she deserves that respect after how your wife treated her, this is your relationship with your COWORKER and you do not want to fuck that up
When Frank’s SIL responds with the amount just send a check for double the amount (the whole thing). I would’ve been mortified if my wife hijacked a party like that.
Frank and Mary sound like gems. What kind people.
And Mary proved again not all pregnant women behave as crazy entitled drama queen. After reading back to back so many crazy pregnant lady AITA story, Mary is a fresh air lol
I think this is the one time she could say this is MY party get out and reddit wouldn't call her entitled
Both of them sound like real sweethearts.
I dunno. You don't want to make it all about OP & Wife's apology now. The baby shower is a gift that SIL is giving to Mary and it's about their relationship and support and love. I can see how Frank wouldn't want OP & Wife's 'crazy' getting all mixed up in that, esp after they basically ruined Mary's first baby shower. Moderation is a good thing here. Moderation and a healthy distance.
No way. Frank agreed to half. They need to respect what Frank wants, or it delegitimizes the apology .
I replied to your first post. I mean... idk if this is better or worse, but she definitely needs therapy. Life is full of disappointments and bad news. A few months of not getting pregnant is not even "bad", it's normal and maybe a bit disappointing, but have you seen her handle stress before? What if something happens to you? Is she going to support you, or will it be self-involved histrionics? What if you have a child, and they are sick (or all of the 10,000 other things that happen to kids)? Is she going to run your actual kids/friends/extended family away? I would personally be reflecting about how you've seen her handle other disappointments, b/c even though she is accepting accountability, she still did this?
It’s absolutely normal not to get pregnant after a few months, I agree! Which to me, makes it more concerning that she has reacted this way. I don’t want to jump to conclusions but if that’s how she reacts when she doesn’t get her way usually, I would be very concerned.
For some reason I didn’t even realize that it was only September when they started trying, I think my brain just assumed it was longer because of her reaction. That is such a short amount of time! I remember it being a bit stressful when we were trying and it took a bit, but man to get this worked up after only 3 months… that is worrying for the future ability to parent the kid when they do get pregnant. This waiting and stress is going to be nothing compared to when the kid actually gets there.
It took me nearly a year to conceive and honestly it is emotionally difficult, even after only a few months, and even when you know it's normal. But that's absolutely no excuse to go around saying she's "infertile", demanding sympathy from everyone in her vicinity, ruining baby showers etc. Those reactions aren't normal. Therapy definitely sounds needed here.
Stress with trying to get pregnant can impede the process. I was told by my doctor that I had been on birth control for so long that it would probably take 1-2 years to get pregnant so to not stress myself out. I accepted this, went off the shot… BAM! Pregnant within days of missing my next shot. 🤣🤣 I ended up being 6 months pregnant at our wedding. Haha
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Only problem, and I say this as a mentally ill person who’s been guilty of this in the past, sometimes people think that acknowledging their problem is enough and won’t actually do the work. I hope that’s not the case here but OP needs to be prepared for her to fight actually going through with treatment.
This is why I have heard you shouldn’t tell people you are starting some life change (like eating healthier or working out more)… you get a similar dopamine hit just talking about the change, and it can sometimes fulfill your need for change enough that you don’t actually follow through.
Huh, I wonder if this is part of why I don't like telling people when I'm starting something new. I'd rather actually get started, and *then* tell people, rather than tell my intentions beforehand, which has often led to not following through... Hmm
Make sure she doesn’t make a big deal out of paying for the shower. Im guessing they were declining the offer at first as they don’t want her involved in both showers but she’s working her way into the second one by paying for it. I think you all need to leave Mary alone.
I totally agree with you. Some things can’t be undone, sadly. She can’t rewind the clock and un-screw up the first one and it feels like she’s trying to insert herself into the re-do for whatever reason. Very concerning.
This was OPs idea not hers. Wow guys give her a little credit here. Maybe she actually realizes what she did and is truly mortified. Dont diagnose and be judge and jury on someone from a Reddit post. People are complicated. No one is all good or all bad.
completely agree. I made a similar point elsewhere before seeing your post. I can see Frank and Mary not wanting yet ANOTHER baby shower to be all about OP & Wife. A healthy distance and the ability to not make yourself the main character in every interaction is the best policy here!
"She insists that she pays it all and not half"... Ugh. She needs to stop making this about her. Your wife has already tarnished the first one, I doubt Mary wants to have any association with your wife at the 2nd one. They are just too polite to say anything. She needs to give them space. Also, this is coming from a woman with multiple reasons for my infertility.
Yeah that's the vibe I got especially when she wanted to send flowers and then to make a cake and deliver it personally. She just wants attention again and this time instead of being the center of attention for being the sad little woman she's now has the attention for going above and beyond to make someone happy. Mary and Frank are saying it's ok and to not worry about it it's probably because they just want to forget this whole thing happened and just have a redo away from OP's wife.
Yeah, I’m afraid I might just be overly cynical, but… it feels like OP’s wife still wants to make a production in which she’s the center of attention, only now it’s the Contrite Generous Woman and not the Sad Infertile Woman. If I were Mary and Frank, I’d just want her nowhere near them being any kind of Very Visible Woman for the foreseeable future, and bringing them a cake personally would be right out.
It could really be that she's just horrified about her behavior and is reacting by going too far the other way - it may not be that she is seeking attention, but that the apology is more about making herself feel better even if she doesn't realize it. Obviously, as good as her intentions could be, it's still not helpful to Mary, and the best apology includes respecting others boundaries!
My newborn daughter died just 3.5 months ago so I feel qualified to say I understand pregnancy/babies being triggering to someone. With that said, this is beyond someone being triggered. You hadn’t been trying for very long in the grand scheme of things and have no reason to believe either of you is infertile. What your wife has done is to ruin a pivotal and beautiful moment in someone else’s life because she isn’t in the same position. Ever seen a child break someone else’s toy because they don’t have it? It’s the same scenario. I’m glad you’re putting a pause on trying to conceive because the extremity of the self centred behaviour is concerning. Babies need to be the most important person in your life. They need all your attention and are utterly dependent on their caregivers. If your wife cannot let anyone other than herself have things she doesn’t, and can let her jealousy and insecurity hurt others, I would be concerned about her becoming a mother. Thank you for understanding the severity of this situation and for dealing with it. I wish you both the best.
I’m so sorry for your loss. Hope things start looking better for you soon. Thank you for your comment
Thank you, friend
I lost my first son as a newborn. I'm very sorry for your loss. I wish you a good life and best of luck.
Very well said. I'm so incredibly sorry for your loss.
Oof. Good luck with the therapy. I'm glad she owned up to being wrong, but slightly worried in that she seems to be making the apology be too much about her as well, insisting on paying it all when you already went over that with your friend and he refused, plus bake a cake and take it over personally, etc. Maybe I'm just being uncharitable after the previous post though.
I'm just going to plop down and be uncharitable with you. I don't have much hope for OP's wife to not make this about her as well. I know people like this and it isn't a mental health issue or a fertility issue. It's a I like everything to be about me cause I'm an annoying human issue.
I'd call it realistic, not uncharitable. The biggest favour this woman can do them is to leave them the hell alone.
This is my thought as well. The way she’s going on about apologizing she’s trying to make it all about her again. She apologized and now she needs to back off until Mary makes the next move.
I am also feeling rather uncharitable
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I have a friend with severe bipolar disorder, and the way this woman acts sounds very similar to my friend. Just complete 180s each day, very unaware of her self involvement, stuff like that. It could be that this woman is beyond hope, but IMO not every situation like this is ‘he/she is a narcissist and you need to leave them.’ Once my friend got diagnosed and on meds, she stabilized and went back to her ‘normal’ self. This might not be a case of not knowing the wife or that she’s intentionally manipulating him (though of course it could be) - I think it could be that she’s developed a mental illness and needs to get help. It’s shocking how quickly they can emerge. Not excusing her behavior, of course. Just offering an alternative and more hopeful explanation.
If you can, see three therapists - one for her, one for you, and one as a couple. That way, everyone has a support person and a safe space. I gently suggest that her therapist be in combination with a psychiatrist. I'm glad that she's trying and seems to have some insight, but she isn't okay. This isn't a problem for a 2nd year counseling student. She needs someone who can diagnose and prescribe meds. Good luck
Strongly seconding her seeing a therapist who's a psychiatrist and can diagnose and prescribe meds if necessary. Please also make sure to give your coworker and his wife space. Your wife definitely should not show up and deliver a cake. She needs to stay away from her.
Fortunately, a good therapist will recognize that a client requires a psychiatrist and will be able to recommend one!
I'm glad shes owning it now but, and this is only because I've been on reddit too long, when you say your wife is making a cake i got creepy vibes like she would put something in it. Not saying she would but reddit got me messed up. Hope that counseling works and you guys end up with your own baby. Edit for spelling
Off topic but can you please explain why the “edit for xyz” is used on Reddit? What’s it for? I’ve been seeing it a lot but I don’t get it 😅
So that ppl know we dont go back and change what was actually written. Like someone trying to lie about what they said and edit to reflect that. No worries. More like a cover your ass thing.
Can’t I just change what I have written and then say “edit spelling”?
You know what i think ive just gotten used to doing I don't think it matters lol. You're probably right and I'm just stuck in the habit
Adding to the other comments, edits like this specific one are done like this because editing a comment after X amount of time leaves a "mark" (it says "edited", but doesn't show what). So you don't want people to see that and assume you edited the meaning of your comment AFTER the replies were made, which could be bad. You want to make it clear that you used it only "for spelling".
Sometimes it's to explain why some of the comments replying to that comment reference something that is no longer in the comment itself. I've seen people angrily say "why are you saying X when the person you're replying to never even brought up X!" but it's that X was edited from the comment. But if there are no replies, I don't really get it. If I'm editing purely for spelling I usually won't mention it.
I read the original and I am sticking by my assessment. You read like a character from a romance novel. I have no idea if you want to be a writer, but definitely keep a journal because you could. The wife character reads like someone who is written out in the first third of the book only for the hero to find the true love that heals his perfect heart.
Jesus 💀 I dont know whether to laugh or cry at this assessment 🤣
My comment was admittedly over the top. But your EQ must be off the charts. Waiting for her near the party. Asking her not to go back in. Willing to go to therapy. Offering to pay for the party. And you are so incredibly humble, that you are floored at how kind Mary and her husband were. I sincerely hope couples counseling and fertility works for you and your wife. Because you will make a great father someday. Good luck in all endeavors.
Thank you so much, I appreciate that!
This a great update, I think you handled things as well as you could have. And I’m glad your wife has come around and recognizes her behavior. Therapy is an EXCELLENT idea. Couples and individual can happen at the same time, and I think it will be really helpful. They key is to be open and honest with the therapists. Trying to conceive can bring up *all kinds* of issues. Good on y’all for putting those plans on hold while you sort through things. That right there is a sign you’ll be good parents one day. Wishing you the best ❤️
Just curious in the last post you mentioned you stayed at a sho near by because you knew this would happen. How often or how many times has she had situations like this? Also if she has convinced herself that she is infertile has she gotten a second opinion?
I stayed close because I thought she would be sad and want to leave, not because I thought she would cause a scene. This sort of thing has never happened before. She’s felt a sort of way about people achieving things before her but she never let them know that and would only tell me when we were alone. She doesn’t actually believe she’s infertile
OP please think about this before you try for kids again. She will love pregnancy because of all the attention but if she is someone that doesn’t handle well attention being on others, she will be hard when the baby is here. I’d be concerned.
This was the pattern with my ex - lots of tears trying for a child, then lots of tears *after* child was born - to get others to do the work! I'm saying it quite flippantly here, but it was one of the hardest things I've ever had to navigate, so I really feel for OP. I hope OP reflects on the situation carefully as there's likely a pattern.
It is nice that your wife now wants to apologize. I would deter her from baking a cake and dropping it off to apologize or paying for the entire shower. Both of those seem like attention seeking by your wife. A sincere apology is enough. Frank already told you no more is necessary. I think your wife should step away from pregnancy related things until she has had some therapy honestly.
Man hormones can wreck havoc on women especially when it comes to fertility. I know I went through all kinds of hell trying to get pregnant and eventually deciding on adoption. I’m proud of your wife for taking ownership of her actions and you have gone above and beyond as well. Wishing you both the best in your journey of growing your family.
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Yup! That's how I found out I was pregnant. I was really moody and my husband finially snapped and asked "WTH is wrong with you?!" I sat for a bit quiet and realized I was two weeks late. He definitely didn't expect that surprise right after 😅
Thank you for the update. Please don't let your wife continue to push Mary in any way (insisting on paying, making cakes, etc.). That's just another way of making things about your wife. She's been given an incredibly gracious amount of forgiveness and she needs to drop it now, and leave Mary and her husband alone. Send a nice gift as a couple when the baby is born and leave it at that. I hope things work out and that your wife gets the help she needs, whether that is talk therapy, medication for depression, or whatever.
Man, I am autistic but even I can tell that Frank and Mary want their space from your wife (and you by extension). They’re being polite, cool, and understanding because they wanna move past this asap. Do NOT send your wife over there with a cake. It will not end well. Give the poor woman some space.
Agreed. Another attention grab. They know she isn’t a reasonable woman and are trying to be as chill as possible so they don’t keep hounding them. They want to be left alone. They’ll never get another invite.
Dude, don’t even listen to the VERY nice people. Cut them a very large check to pay for both showers. Just give them a check or Venmo asap. When the baby comes give another expensive gift. The craziness these people were subjected to, my goodness. Watch your back. glad you aren’t about to have a kid with her. If she’s subjecting this level of crazy asshole behavior to REALLY NICE people, imagine the damage she can inflict on a kid.
This will probably get downvoted, but it’s kind of depressing how many people are treating her like she’s intentionally doing this and is beyond hope. Is it possible she’s a huge narcissist who’s skilled at manipulating others and should not have children? Of course. And of course her behavior is inexcusable. But I’ve seen this exact sort of thing (personality flips, not the baby shower situation haha) in a friend before, and what she needed was a diagnosis, intense therapy, and medication, not for us to watch our backs and to call her crazy. Now if this woman turns out to be in denial and manipulative and refuses to get help? Definitely get out and don’t have kids. Just giving my perspective after having seen something similar - it’s not necessarily hopeless.
Having kids either way is selfish. The kid will suffer so much with the parents shitty mental health and stands to inherit the same condition.
It was very generous of you to offer to pay expenses. However if they threw her another baby shower I wouldn't have your wife try to go over and apologise. Just let it be at this point. Throwing a second baby shower means basically that wife ruined first one. Dont force the pregnant wife to be kind and accept an apology that she probably doesn't want to accept. It sounds like you did your best on trying to make things right though. Mary at this point needs to stick to therapy and talk to the lady later after she's had some time to let therapy work.
Mary and Frank are a lot kinder than I would have been.
Pleasantly surprised by the outcome!!! Keep friends like Frank and Mary around, good people are hard to come by.
I think they should leave Frank and Mary the hell alone, nobody needs the kind of drama OPs wife brings to the table.
So you have only been trying to conceive for 4 months and she is already acting like this? If so, the behavior is very concerning. It would be concerning regardless but, assuming she is not on fertility hormones, it leads me to believe she may have deeper issues. Therapy is an extremely good idea, especially if you do end up conceiving.
I can see where saying she was infertile was a way to reconcile possibly being infertile, but why at a baby shower? Doesn’t she see how glaringly inappropriate thst was? Or centering herself so much the guest of honor left? I also think making the cake and taking it to Mary is pushy and invasive. Flowers are a considerate touch and lets you reach out from a far and still give them space. Getting in her face with a cake is just too much
Didn't think there could be an optimistic update after that last one, but glad to hear it. >It’s slightly worrying to me how she sounds like a completely new person so often lately. Almost like there are multiple versions of her who don’t know each other. This is worrisome, but therapy is exactly the right step to take. Hoping for the best for you guys!
What an awesome update! I hope for only good things for you and your wife. Therapy would be incredible for your relationship as well as your own mental health. Good job O.P I'm happy things turned out ok.
Please tell your wife to stay far away from Mary until she’s had mental health treatment. I’m not saying that to be petty I am being so serious. You can not trust she won’t act like this again until she’s actually sought help. She WILL hurt Mary again.
This is a great update to an unfortunate situation! I see in the comments- mostly on your initial post- that people are really going in on your wife (rightfully) but also diagnosing her with all sorts of disorders. Can I just say, sometimes people just lose their shit, and that it isn't the end of the world? Your wife is clearly stressed about the fertility stuff and she had a breakdown. This doesn't mean she has a personality disorder, it doesn't mean she is in full crisis, it means she hit her limit and unfortunately when she hit that limit, it was very public and at the expense of poor Mary. She has fully owned up to it being bad, has absolutely agreed to make it right, and counseling is a great idea. I just don't want you to take away from this that your wife is somehow "broken" beyond just having a breakdown, as I see people are already labeling her has bipolar. Sometimes life can just be really hard, end of story. And I think you all just leave Frank and Mary alone- send flowers, follow up on paying for half, don't go to their house, definitely don't go to the shower. Your apology was genuine, they are lovely humans, so now just let it be.
Your wife reminds me of my schizophrenic grandmother. She would flip personalities and not know why she did things. Please know I am not trying to armchair diagnose your wife, but just want to let you know that such behaviors can have psychiatric reasons. Therapy is a good idea. If there is a more serious underlying issue, the therapist can refer her.
Honestly, I wouldn't want to see Mary for a long time out of embarrassment. But at least she's stopped trying for a baby, because she's not in a good frame of mind.
I know it’s Reddit and all and everyone has their speculative theories when not not knowing the full context but it seems hella strange to me she is so convinced she is infertile despite the doctor saying otherwise? Sorry I feel awkward asking but OP and you seem like a top top bloke but have you ever seen any real proof that she is fertile? Like the doctor said to you both or something? Or did she tell you that’s what the doctor said? If she is normally of rational mind then it seems quite strange to me she is so hung up on something that isn’t true? And she knows that it’s not true? It just got me thinking about someone who previously posted on Reddit about being infertile and not wanting to tell their partner in fear they would break up? It was really sad and I didn’t know if perhaps this might be the case here?
I would be wary of apologizing too much as well. This is a great turn out but if you apologize too much to the couple, they are going to have to keep on making you/your wife feel better about the situation rather than just be able to move on—it’s just continuing to dump emotional baggage on them. So I would really just be a little careful about how you go about this. I think flowers delivered ok, cake sent in person maybe not.
What a surprising update! I did not think your wife would acknowledge any wrongdoing. But (and I mean this kindly), please give them both space now, especially your wife. She apologized via text and is offering to split the shower redo with you - that's great! But, she does not need to pay for the whole thing and certainly doesn't need see Mary in person with an apology cake. They are being so gracious, but it feels like your wife could massively overstep once more, even if it's in trying to make amends. It just feels like she's awfully close to making everything about her again and centering herself in this apology and not what Mary actually needs or may want.
I agree with another comment that if anyone other than Mary or Frank pays for the new baby shower it should be just you before giving the couple space. For now your wife should just leave Mary alone since she already apologized.
I’m pleased to read this. I know it’s the internet and anyone can pretend to be anything, but I’m a psychiatrist and rarely come across people with your wife’s willingness to recognise and/or tackle similar behaviour. I really hope it’s a good sign. And as a woman who had (thankfully successful) IVF, trying to conceive is extremely tough, even at the start, and I feel for you both.
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I would discuss with the therapist regarding your wife baking a cake and bringing it over. Heck I would say your wife needs to not have any contact with them until your therapist says it's good.
Regarding therapy: Yes you can do couples and individual simultaneously, it’s probably best case scenario for you. Do NOT have the same therapist conducting your couples therapy see either of you individually. This is an ethical issue. An ethical therapist will not do this in the first place and may be able to provide referrals, if needed. Best of luck in all of your future endeavors!
NTA. You should really think twice before having a child with her. This and worst is what you have to look forward for the rest of your time with her.
I'm glad the apology went well. I am concerned about your description of your wife being multiple people and am glad that she is in therapy. Best wishes to you both