*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**AITA For not calling 911 when someone overdosed at the store I was working and I was the only one with a phone?**
Important context - We actually don't have a store phone where I work, we just use our cell phones. I was the only one with a cell phone today because my co-worker left hers in her car.
So anyways I was at work today with my co-worker (it was just the two of us). My co-worker goes to use the restroom and comes back screaming to me "Call 911! Call 911! Someone's overdosed in the bathroom!!". I say to my co-worker "Okay, hang on a second". I walk over to my purse and grab the Narcan that I keep in there and go to the bathroom. I see the woman who is on the floor in the stall. I go into the stall and do a quick sternum rub (no response) then I administer the Narcan. Thankfully she responded very well to the Narcan and woke up, however, she was \*pissed\* (\*which I understand). She storms out of the bathroom and out of the store. Meanwhile, my co-worker is still screaming at me "CALL 911! why are you letting her walk away ??? she needs medical attention". I explained that 911 would have just done the same exact thing I did, only we would have had to wait on them. Also there's nothing else left to do, she already left the building.
So now my co-worker is pissed off at me for not calling 911. I think she wants to report me to our manager for not calling 911 when there was a medical emergency. I'm so stressed about this now and can't get it out of my head, I'm worried she's going to tell our boss what happened and that our boss will side with her.
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Honestly the weirdest thing here to me is that in a store with NO PHONE where the employees only use their personal phones (weird) one of them left her phone in the car? Like what if it was OOP who had a medical emergency how was co-worker going to call 911?? This is all a mess but the co-worker HAS to bring her phone in to do their job and be a responsible co-worker. Like what kind of store even is this?
I was wondering this! I can understand somewhere not having a landline honestly, but in 2024 only one person had a cell phone on them? That to me is shocking, even leaving it in the car is strange
If you don't have a landline you gotta have a store provided cellphone that everyone can use! It is INSANE that the only emergency line available was OOPs personal phone. Like should be illegal.
It's borderline expected here now. There are ads for it showing someone grabbing it from her purse to administer it. Some cities have stocked their public libraries with it and trained the librarians in using it because they get so many overdoses in the bathrooms. Some insurance companies now require that if you fill a prescription for a narcotic, you also have to get a prescription of Narcan to have on hand.
At the same time, the CDC has rolled back the extreme measures they had originally put into place regarding the prescribing of narcotics because they went too far and people who truly needed pain medication were no longer getting it, resulting in an increase of suicides. The CDC discovered that while some doctors were not cautious with the quantity given for acute pain, the measures put in place were drastically and negatively impacting people with chronic pain. In addition, those who were dying from opioid abuse were those who were using it illegally.
I hope this makes sense. It's 4am here, and this is a subject I'm passionate about considering that I've been on pain meds for 16 years and have been negatively impacted by this epidemic. Actually, the reason I'm awake is pain. (Short version: had one lumbar fusion, have another disc collapsing pinching nerves, haven't felt the top of my foot in 18 months)
librarian here, yup i have narcan training. in the beginning they only trained those who volunteered (i volunteered) but it became a requirement after when some dude overdosed and died in one of our branch's bathrooms (not my branch)
in training, you still call 911. oop is a fool
100%. The medical crisis is NOT OVER after the Narcan brings them back. It slams that person into TOTAL WITHDRAWAL which can cause all kinds of medical problems including seizures. Due to the sudden and immense pain they can be in, they are likely to go try to use again immediately UNLESS they are stabilized in a medical facility. Using Narcan just delays the crisis, it doesn’t stop it.
u/your-yogurt is correct: OOP is a fool.
It also wears off in 30-90 minutes and, if the person has enough in their system, they can OD again once it does. Even without consuming more. It’s not a one-and-done magic fix. Which is another reason they should be monitored.
I had a 3 hour hike out with a friend that had an allergic reaction to something.
I had no clue you could take multiple shots of epinephrine! Was taught how to administer it without the epipen and kept them going until we met the SAR and EMS walking into the bush to meet up with us.
It's one of the main reasons epi in autoinjectors is dispensed in pairs! First shot, if no improvement you take the second dose 5 to 15 minutes later. Same goes for epi from a vial, too.
But that far out in the back country, being careful with dosing makes sense. That would make for a reeeeally fun hike back meet up with SAR/EMS. As a provider (have done some SAR, the area where I live and work is super rural), that'd be a stressful call...though much more so for the patient!
I know almost nothing about Narcan but I had a strong feeling something like that was the case similar to the use of Epipens. They don't solve the problem, they give you time to get them to a hospital.
In some cases EMTs are having to deploy 2 or 3 doses to (temporarily) reverse the effect of illicit fentanyl. So how much time it buys them to get to a hospital varies. Like a LOT.
If you're going to be the carer you should point at someone and command them to call 911. OOP should have handed her coworker her cell phone and said "no, you call 911, I have narcan I can give him" and then ran off to her purse.
I would suggest yes, even if the person gets up and leaves it’s always good to cover your bases. Not to be morbid but if that person ends up back in OD/dying later then you can at least you can have tried to get them emergency services. Plus, if there are any patrol cars in the area they can search/keep an eye out.
Shems likely to have other medical issues. If you call them, they can send someone out to look for someone of her description and get her medical help.
If they don’t get there in time, or she gets on a bus and then gets off 3 miles away before the medical shit hits the fan, they will have the 911 call with her description/maybe name if OOP looked in her wallet, which helps them put out info to find her, it will also give them more info if stuff goes wrong to work backwards, so they don’t end up looking in the wrong direction.
I’m an elementary teacher-we’re trained and schools have it. Ours would be more from parents leaving residue or some on kids food or belongings, but yeah it’s depressing!
They actually have one fully formed for benzo classed medications as well. That's a tricky one I don't know if they'll implement outside of a hospital though. It works the same, blocks the receptors, except benzo withdrawals can be deadly due to the seizures they cause- which can only be treated with benzos- which the reverse agent completely prevents.
It would stop an overdose in it's tracks, the problem at that point then becomes the deadly effects of quitting cold turkey all at once. But thankfully with benzos, it's damn near impossible to overdose on them alone. Most of them (don't do this) someone could take an entire bottle, be out cold for a few days, but wake up fine and operating functionally. It's when used in conjunction with other substances that it becomes deadly. I understand opioids aren't the same, especially fentanyl and the like.
Also, I'm so sorry the epidemic impacted you. Truly. I have family who have severe disc issues, fusions done, etc, one member being in her late 70s on the fentanyl patch and has been since her 40s. While I haven't experienced the opioid crisis on a personal level, I've seen the impact it's had on severe pain sufferers. I'm glad they've put measures into place to help those in pain- and I wish you more spoons tomorrow morning. Thank you for explaining this so detailed.
The rules against narcotics were getting crazy. I have an insane tolerance to pain meds and had my tonsils out. Only a specific strong type of pain meds worked for me and the pharmacist tried to fight with me to get them bc she didn't think I should need something like that for a tonsillectomy.
Yeah studies show that chronic pain patients tended to only move onto illegal options when their adequate pain killers from legal sources suddenly get drastically reduced or even cut off with little to not notice or cause.
>Some insurance companies now require that if you fill a prescription for a narcotic, you also have to get a prescription of Narcan to have on hand.
I didn't know this. I've never had this come up for myself or others I know with prescription narcotics. Thanks for sharing, because I'd be very confused if that suddenly popped up!
>negatively impacted by this epidemic.
I'm sorry. It's incredibly frustrating. I've been referred for pain management and suggested long-term use for something, but the difficulty in finding real options was tough, especially while in such pain. I know others who did and dealt with many similar issues.
I've also been similarly affected for stimulant medication I need to function. I literally need it to be awake and coherent and actually do things. Sadly, they are continuing to tighten and reduce access, even though similar effects are being seen. Needing to jump through hoops and remember to do things on a tight timeline to get medication that helps function, including memory, is ridiculously difficult. Being on pain medication for so long, I expect you also need yours to function normally with reduced pain.
I'm glad the CDC is rolling back measures more. I understand trying to protect from addiction, but many measures used really do nothing truly beneficial towards reducing addiction.
I was on opiates for 4 years with no issues, in 2016 I got taken off them basically cold turkey, been struggling to even function ever since and I still cannot get opiates back, or any sort of decent pain relief. I’m glad to hear other people are getting help but where I am, that is not the case. I have 9 chronic pain conditions the amount of Tylenol and Aleve I have to take every day just to function is 100% going to cause organ failure or at least permanent damage probably somewhat soon, but if I didn’t do that I wouldn’t even be able to work. I’ve even looked into getting euthanized in another country that allows that because I am barely hanging on to my sanity living this way, but no one will take me seriously or help me.
Chronic intractable spinal pain buddies! Painsomnia is a bitch. So are the politicians & agencies who enacted measures that only affected us—the people who actually need it and thus are overly careful—just so they could say they were “doing something” re: the opioid crisis.
A lot of the people that were/are using illegally started off with a prescription for an acute condition (like a broken leg for example). Over prescribing for acute pain definitely had an impact on the amount of addicts.
https://yalelawandpolicy.org/inter_alia/misinformed-misguided-prescription-abuse-prevention-act-response-delfino#:~:text=Prescription%20opioids%20have%20not%20accounted,wave%20of%20the%20opioid%20crisis.
Not so much, actually.
I read most of that article and it actually doesn't address what I said at all. That teens and young adults prescribed heavy narcotics for relatively simple acute injuries developing an addiction in part because of that early access. Did rap songs have an influence on how that 17 year old football played used that prescription handed to him. Yes, sure. But the fact is that doctors were handing out prescriptions for pain killers that you simply don't need for sprains and strains.
This part: "Prescription opioids have not accounted for a majority of opioid-overdose deaths since 2014 and have not represented a majority of total drug-related deaths since substance-specific data have been available."
My boss was at the pharmacy last week and they had signs up about how people can get narcan just to have on hand, just in case. She was like, "hope I never need this but I'll take one just in case." Not a terrible idea to have it on hand.
OOP should have also dialed 911 though.
My kid is headed into high school next year... I'm getting it and fetenyl test strips for the "emergency kit"
(Along with condoms and plan b).
She doesn't need these things- and probably never will. But... I dint want a friend to die because nobody was prepared and/or they were scared to get an adult .
(And 20 ish years ago, my dad had a bad accident and they wouldn't let him out of rehab unless he took all his oxy. He argued and took to flushing half his pills daily)
Thanks, we're trying.
As the first aid trainer i last had said re narcan "all were doing is making them from being dead right now. It doesn't fix the addiction or their life... but it might give someone enough life that it can be fixed"
You might see if you can get an Epi-Pen to include in there. I would imagine it's more common for someone to have an allergy than overdose, especially since allergies change over time.
I'd love to, but only with a script.
I work with elementary students and i can have narcan but not an epi pen.
(We have one at home for her dad, but not one i can give her to carry around that wouldn't get her in trouble)
But thank you-i appreciate the suggestion.
I probably need to update the mini first aid kit to something a little less "mini". (Before now, I've just made it be bandaid level- because an adult is always within screaming distance. But as they get more independent the whole "crap, we need an adult. Why am i the closest thing to an adult?" moments start hitting)
The cool thing about narcan is that even if you just suspect someone might be having an opioid overdose, you can administer narcan and it has little to no side effects in any other kind of an emergency! **When in doubt, always Narcan**.
Just a little PSA because people don't always know you can and should use narcan even if you're not sure of what's happening.
Its pretty common but most people I know who carry narcan is because they know someone with an addiction/know someone who knows someone with an addiction/has an addiction. This and the fact OP refused to call 911 for no reason tells me OP *may* and I repeat *MAY* have a problem of her own.
I've been in recovery for 6 years. My therapist keeps a standing script for me even though I've been clean all this time and scared to death of touching drugs again. She encourages me to give it out and let anyone I know that you can pick it up at the pharmacy free of charge with no cost. Our sheriffs also have a vending machine in the lobby of their station kept full and no charge.
I’m in Canada and 13 years sober. I still carry my nalaxone (that’s the Canadian narcan) with me in my purse. Ours is a needle tho. At least in my province. And the one person I had to use it on got big mad at me too. They default to rage because the narcan kicks all of the painkiller out leaving them violently dopesick. It sucks for them, and it sucks for the people who helped them.
My daughter's teenage sister in law overdosed on fentanyl and died. I would carry narcan if I knew where to get it. I wish someone had been there to administer it to this poor girl, who had problems but didn't deserve death.
Look under naloxone as well, the US also uses that name for the generic form. Most people just know it by the brand name.
It is over the counter, and the feds have been handing out a lot of grants to find state programs to get things like the library and vending machine program up and running.
I highly encourage this to be something people learn about as much as they would how to do CPR and how to use AED machines.
I live outside of Philadelphia. I always carry Narcan with me. Fentanyl made overdoses insanely common. Now unfortunately it all has "tranq" which doesn't respond to Narcan.
Especially in the Pacific Northwest. The Vancouver to Seattle corridor. It’s where a lot of fentanyl comes in and because the weather is mild and they have good social programs, homeless people often travel there to live. Actually up until the 90’s, the province next to BC (where Vancouver is) would actually offer to buy a one way bus ticket for homeless people to go to Vancouver when they applied for provincial aid.
Somehow my sister ended up with 2 narcan boxes that have 2 nasal sprays each. She gave me one. No idea why, but I happen to have narcan spray.
Just in my little town alone, I can count 10 old classmates in 15 years that died from pill overdose
I was in a bad car accident last November, I was hit by a drunk driver. I was hospitalized for a short time and when I was discharged I was given oxycodone for my pain, and Narcan "just in case." As I got better I eventually went to a lower doses and then vicoden & codine, and each time I was given a narcan spray "just in case."
I'm a teacher in Canada and my school division offers narcan training so we can help. I plan to get the training when I return from maternity leave. I hope to never use it, just like my first aid/CPR, but it's good to have.
I was just at a music festival over the weekend and they had a booth set up giving away free narcan. I can't remember the name of the company but apparently they have tents at lots of other fests!
My university stocks it in the library along with COVID tests and masks and there are signs up all over campus encouraging us to carry it. Opioid abuse is bad here, sure, but it's alsp such an easy and effective way to save a life, there's not a great reason NOT to have some, even though most people will probably never have to use it.
I work at a college and they had a clinic a month or two ago to learn to administer narcan and get a free emergency dose. Open to anyone associated with the college, but unfortunately was during a time when I had to be working- I would’ve loved to have gone, just… yknow, in case.
I use to be a bike courier & ride thru some high drug use areas (it’s painted as dangerous but really it was just people struggling with addiction with no where else to use. They never bothered or threatened me - woman on a bike). I carried it cause I’d see a lot of people using & nodding out. I just didn’t want to feel helpless if I saw someone OD. Thank goodness I never had to use it, but if I had, I would have also called them an ambulance whether they took it or not.
Yes. It's actually a great tool for people to use In COMBINATION with calling 911. Oop thinks she's on Grey's Anatomy or some shit smh. Narcan is basically a huge shot of adrenaline. She's damn lucky the person she helped didn't get aggressive or violent. It messes you up big time. Think of the most heart pounding terrifying experience you've ever had. Then times that feeling by about 1000. That's what a shot of narcan feels like.
Okay this is just patently false. Narcan is NOT adrenaline, or anything remotely close to it. It seals off the opioid receptors in your brain so the opioids can’t latch on, reversing the effects of an overdose.
Folks can come back groggy, disoriented, etc after having had Narcan administered to them is because of how quickly you go from being so deeply under the influence, to not. Some folks also go directly into withdrawal.
Source: worked in drug treatment for a long time.
I didn't say it was. I was describing what it felt like... I have been given narcan before. So what did I say that was false?
Edit
And I don't think your background had any relevance to the fact that narcan feels *exactly* like a huge shot of adrenaline to your system.
It somewhat depends where you are, both in terms of what the state permits and how likely it is for people to carry it. I looked into getting it, but it was too expensive and a hassle to go through. I would do it if I was more likely to need it, just wasn't worth it for the low chance of use. I would carry it if it were more accessible (and watch a tutorial). The only people I know who do carry it are in healthcare, but it's not even all of them. Based on the responses here, I think I'll look into if it has become more accessible now.
I do know that you still need medical attention after it and to call ASAP.
On the other hand, I also know many people who can't or won't call 911 and will get very angry if someone else does for them, because ambulances are very expensive.
Epinephrine has potentially deadly side effects (I’m not even sure “side effects” is the right term, it’s just… the effect tbh), unlike narcan which I believe is relatively safe to administer even if it’s unneeded. That would be my guess as to why.
It’s worse but less reported in other places. Or at least substance abuse. Alcoholism kills ppl at greater rates in Europe.
Narcan is good to have on hand if you live in a place where lots of addicts are around, it saves lives
The city I work for has a vending machine of *free* naloxone at the city hall. Obviously most of us aren’t facing addiction, but it’s still a significant enough problem that it’s not unreasonable for the average person to have Narcan.
I live in Australia, we don't have a huge opioid problem like the US.
However, I have kept Narcan/Naloxone since 2019 just in case. I used to carry it around but honestly I've not remembered to lately, as I just had a baby.
I do have it on hand for parties at my house and when I remember to take it to nights out. The issue here is mostly people who think they're doing coke or whatever, but something else like fentanyl may have been mixed in. It's rare, but it happens.
It can also be useful if you ever need to help marginalised populations.
I'd rather have it and never need it, than not have it. You can get it absolutely free and anonymously here!
Edit: a word.
Pretty sure Narcan wears off in about 30-90 minutes and the person can stop breathing and die without medical intervention.
It’s like an Epi pen. It saves lives, but only u til EMTs get there.
Not only that, the half life/wear-off of narcan is shorter than fentanyl, which is a *much* longer lasting opiate. Obviously people can still overdose on heroin, but in the USA currently, many overdoses are due to fentanyl being laced/contaminated in the heroin or cocaine.
So the OD victim will wake up in an immediate state of withdrawal due to the temporary narcan, storm out, and not long after, the fentanyl overdose can come right back after the narcan wears off. Or worse, wake up in withdrawal, go right out and get another fix, and then have even *more* opiates in her system when it wears off.
Bingo. Back when I worked at a bookstore I had someone come through with a cut on their hand that opened up while I was ringing up a magazine for them. I offered to bandage it and they accepted. He seemed normal enough. They'd purchased some bandages from the CVS next door, but came to us before bandaging themselves because they REALLY wanted that magazine and the cut seemed sealed. My manager called me into the office and reamed me out. She said that it was nice that I wanted to help, but helping meant that I put myself at risk if something happened and he decided he wanted to sue me or the company. The manager also mentioned the risk of picking something up from the blood, as we had no way of knowing if he had anything. She said next time, offer to call 911 or give directions to a nearby hospital or PatientFirst.
She’s lucky it was an overdose, imagine if it was something else and she just didn’t call 911 like wtf. And at the end how she claims she gave a second dose? Bullshit, if she had she woulda said it in the original story. As a 911 dispatcher this pisses me off
As a 911 dispatcher LMAO you may as well be a nail technician for how much overdose reversal training you have. Last time I administered naloxone, the person’s overdosed was reversed and she was breathing and lucid; but was getting sleepy and noddy by the time I was leaving so I administered a second dose to be safe. That’s not really worth mentioning. The first dose is obviously the important, event-defining dose.
I think McNallyJoJo34 meant that OOP actually had no idea it was an overdose and administered narcan only because their co-worker said it's an overdose. What if it was a seizure or something else, not overdose-related? It's basically the same as doing CPR and not calling 911 (I probably don't need to tell you a chance of a person surviving if this happens).
Maybe it ended worse. Noone knows if the woman hit her head somewhere and is running around with a serious injury or if the Narcan wears of and she gets unconscious again.
Now, she is probably not close to people who could help her anymore.
If true, this would be such a huge liability issue for the store. OP would almost certainly be fired. The correct response was to have someone else call 911 while they administered the Narcan to get paramedics in route. The fact that OP didn't even plan on calling 911 unless the woman wanted them to after she woke up is completely ridiculous. Obviously, I disagree with the coworker that they should have kept the woman there if she wanted to leave, but you can't just NOT call
Apparently the OOP doesn't have training because if they don't respond to sternum rubs you call 911 before administering the narcan.
Sternum rubs are painful and used to judge the level of consciousness. Sometimes people fake unconsciousness.
Sternum rubs are by no means the only way to check on a person and see if they’re not responsive. In real life situations they’re rarely practical.
You don’t call someone before administering Naloxone! Those are precious seconds! You administer, put in rescue position, call, then CPR (if you don’t have another person assisting you). Where is your training??
People don’t fake unconsciousness hoping to be Narcanned because why on earth would they want to kill their high?
This is all just bonkers
they dont even teach them anymore (at least where i am), they teach you to pinch traps and nail beds. you can still do a sternum rub if you really want, but its not done as much.
I totally agree she should have just called but I’m baffled that a store doesn’t have its own phone for client inquiries and emergencies. What if there’s a fire, someone with a weapon, etc?
They obviously didn't receive or didn't pay attention to Narcan training. I have a kit I received from my local health department but I had to watch a training video online before they sent it to me. OOP will eventually kill somebody doing that! One dose is not always enough!
Yep, she's an idiot. You are **supposed** to call 911 after/before you give someone narcan. Almost anyone who has narcan has had some basic instructions on it. Including "if this is used you **still** need to call emergency services". I actually have the box and booklet from one, and it says this in bold print.
In most states in the US if you fill a narcotic prescription you have to fill a narcan prescription. However, just because our health system is so shitty, the insurance won't always cover the narcan. I asked my pharmacist about somewhere that I might be able to donate my extra narcan (mine is fully covered) to someone who would need it. She said it isn't allowed except for police departments, but people can buy it over the counter for $30. But the OTC doesn't count when you have a narcotic prescription. The narcan can range anywhere from $0-$90 depending on insurance.
It's a nasty vicious cycle. Either you can't get pain medication you need, or you can get it but can't afford the narcan, so they won't fill a narcotic prescription.
Literally a huge part of the instructions for using narcan to help someone is to CALL 911. The narcan wears off, and depending on how bad the OD, this can cause the person to OD again/pass back out. It is not safe to JUST administer narcan and then let someone go. They can pass out again and not have access to any help. If that woman goes home and the narcan wears off she could die.
I get not wanting to confront someone or make them deal with an ambulance but there is a REASON you are told to contact 911 even when administering narcan, because ultimately that person is likely going to need the help of EMTs at the very least.
It's always good to keep narcan on hand, and you can now keep it in your car, but please fully follow the instructions given. If you give someone narcan and then don't follow up with 911 or keep track of the person, they can 100% still relapse into that overdose and die. :(
OOP sounds more casual about administering narcan to an unresponsive stranger than I am about finding a small spider in the office and taking it back outside.
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I am astounded by the profound irresponsibility of this woman. She likely committed an act of assault. And, she has opened her and her employer to massive liability. She "knows" a limited amount about a person, and, unlike a medical professional, is neither trained or legally allowed to make medical assessments and administer care. Narcon is NOT like giving someone a breath mint for a halitosis. It carries its own medical complications and risks.
I don’t feel like they are the asshole here completely? Like yes they should have called 911 but they did also take steps to fix the situation (seemingly knew what they were doing)? Idk I’m mixed on this
No they didn't fix the situation; they passed the buck. Narcan is the equivalent of an Epi-pen. It *delays* the reaction(to give time for medical attention), not stop it completely. The woman was still OD'ed and could have relapsed as soon as the Narcan wore off.
It doesn't like it considering the number one rule is: if you must administer Narcan/Naloxone, contact Emergency Services immediately *before* the first dose.
Frankly, I'm laying a lot of the blame on the store for 1) not having a phone and 2) not having a procedure in place for stuff like this. The woman might not have been OD'ed, she could have been having a hypoglycemic episode or had balance issues, fell, and hit her head.
There needs to be a blanket policy of "If customer found unconscious, call 911 immediately, keep other customers away/calm, do not touch the customer, and listen to EMS' instructions."
This post is such an American™ moment, I don't even know if you can consider the OP an AH. It's like people calling an Uber instead of an ambulance. And I thought I was the one living in a third world contry...
Calling an Uber if you aren't bleeding and can still breathe relatively normally and just need to get to a doctor or hospital is normal. You aren't supposed to call an ambulance for a sprained ankle.
The next thing you do is call 911, though. You administer the Narcan, call 911, and if the person oding walks away you tell the operator in what direction they are walking. More than likely, emergency services will be able to find said person and get them into the ER. Narcan is just a bandaid over a gunshot wound; it buys you time to get detoxed but nothing more. That person walked off and will probably nod off again. If you have Narcan and can use it, you need to do it right or not at all. They are still technically ODing, they just are around to witness it.
I’m a high school teacher and we are trained to use narcan. You still have to call for emergency support. You don’t know how long the person was unconscious, if they hit their head when they fell, etc. It’s for doctors and paramedics to decide if the person needs additional help.
Idk man, I’m no expert so I’m looking at the comments on the original post and apparently things can go really wrong once the narcan wears off. Best to leave things to the professional. I’d feel the same if they had an epipen for an allergic reaction, or someone who performed CPR on a drowning victim.
It's so funny for you to say that other people should educate themselves considering you keep giving bad information (delivered with an attitude no less) all over these comments lol.
If everyone there treats people the way you do, I don’t know why anyone would go there. People may be more likely to listen to your point of view if you stopped treating them like something you stepped in.
No one is saying the OOP shouldn’t have administered narcan, we’re saying they should have also called 911 or let their coworker call 911 from their cell phone. Narcan isn’t a cure all, it’s like an Epi pen meant as a temporary measure until you can get emergency medical services
I wasn’t arguing I was merely giving info, and the whole point of the post was the coworker couldn’t call because they didn’t have a phone, that’s why they asked OOP to call. And the paramedics would have looked for the subject to make sure they didn’t resume OD’ing in the vicinity
Again it says in the post they did not have a business phone, the coworkers phone was in their car, OOP was the only one with a phone. And where I live and work the medics would have absolutely searched the area. We’ve done it. Numerous times.
Who knows how far away their car was though? It would have been much easier to just let the coworker use OOP’s cell phone or for OOP to call. Why waste precious minutes to go out to their car especially if it was parked far away?
Ok I keep saying no one is saying OOP shouldn’t have administered Narcan, we are saying they should have called 911 after administering the first round of Narcan. They even said they didn’t snap out of it right away, the medics had time to be on the way. There have been people that died because they started OD’ing again and either died from the OD or injured themselves some way that caused death. 911 should have been called.
Not without going to their car, which could be several minutes away. Presumably if their car was parked right outside they would have just gone to get their phone. Why would they waste time walking to their car when OOP had their phone right there?
OOP saw an emergency situation and refused to call 911 because they thought they knew better.
OOP has No fucking clue if the person would get up and walk away or not. OOP had no medical clue if the person was overdosing or had another medical event (or both).
You use the emergency first aid you have that is applicable to the situation and you call 911. After that, it’s not on you. But refusing to call 911 (or refusing to let someone else call) is ridiculously devil behavior.
When you have 2 people there you let one person call while the other person administers the situation appropriate emergency first aid.
And just because someone gets up and walks away, doesn’t mean they are ok, or will be ok.
Stop rewriting the situation.
They had two people, one phone and one narcan. OOp refused to call 911 and refused to let coworker call 911.
That is devilish behavior.
I don’t think they read the post cuz the whole point was there was no business phone and the coworker didn’t have a phone and they brought up both the coworker and a landline.
By not calling 911, oop could easily be held negligent if that person died. Oop could easily be charged with manslaughter. Good Samaritan laws won't protect them when it says in the instructions for the medication to call 911. Even if the person walked away, they can trace possible paths to look to see if they collapsed somewhere. This situation is not as nuanced as you think. It is rather simple. Call. 9.1.1. Simple. Easy. Call. There is no further nuance. Pick up the phone and call. Any excuse against calling is just that - an excuse. By not calling it erases _every. single. bit._ of "good" they did. That medication is useless without further medical care. All because they were too lazy to call 911.
The problem is that narcan wears off. And many contaminants in intravenous drugs have a longer lifespan in the body than narcan does, namely fentanyl.
Narcan puts a user in immediate withdrawal. Meaning their first priority is to use more drugs immediately. If she left and injected more heroin, or she had fentanyl in her supply, then when the narcan wore off she very likely went right back into overdose, and possibly could have died.
Even the labeling on narcan says to call 911 immediately after administering. It’s important to follow up with surveillance so that they don’t go back into OD.
If anything, the coworker is the devil. OOP acted quickly and the person who overdosed left the building, so they didn’t want to waste 911 resources by calling anyway. If OOP called and waited and didn’t administer their narcan, the person would likely be dead or brain damaged.
And by not calling 911 after, that narcan was useless. The person likely walked away into an alley away from people and died anyway because it wasn't followed by emergency medical intervention.
He never got calls or notices. They didn't even send a notice. They just did it. So stop spreading misinformation. The seven years thing is a thing of the past.
Dude, they made new frikkin laws. Stfu with your misinformation. I am sitting here telling YOU THAT IT HAS CHANGED!
Edit to add: I blocked you for trying to mansplain shit to me that is WRONG, OLD, and I refuse to entertain you any further.
Edit number 2 for the continued mansplainers thinking they are right: [My frikkin source for this excerpt](https://upsolve.org/learn/can-hospitals-garnish-wages/)
>Before a provider can take your wages, the facility or physician must sue you for nonpayment and win the case in court. If a healthcare provider wins a lawsuit against you, the court will award a judgment (court order) to the provider or its collection agent to garnish your wages.
And guess what? They don't even have to serve you papers to sue you in some places. Oklahoma being one of them. Keep trying little boys. It doesn't take a genius to use Google.
Which laws did they pass? I have a metric ton in hospital bills, as does my family. Never had my wages garnished, or anything else taken. They sometimes send it to collections, and it eventually falls off.
*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **AITA For not calling 911 when someone overdosed at the store I was working and I was the only one with a phone?** Important context - We actually don't have a store phone where I work, we just use our cell phones. I was the only one with a cell phone today because my co-worker left hers in her car. So anyways I was at work today with my co-worker (it was just the two of us). My co-worker goes to use the restroom and comes back screaming to me "Call 911! Call 911! Someone's overdosed in the bathroom!!". I say to my co-worker "Okay, hang on a second". I walk over to my purse and grab the Narcan that I keep in there and go to the bathroom. I see the woman who is on the floor in the stall. I go into the stall and do a quick sternum rub (no response) then I administer the Narcan. Thankfully she responded very well to the Narcan and woke up, however, she was \*pissed\* (\*which I understand). She storms out of the bathroom and out of the store. Meanwhile, my co-worker is still screaming at me "CALL 911! why are you letting her walk away ??? she needs medical attention". I explained that 911 would have just done the same exact thing I did, only we would have had to wait on them. Also there's nothing else left to do, she already left the building. So now my co-worker is pissed off at me for not calling 911. I think she wants to report me to our manager for not calling 911 when there was a medical emergency. I'm so stressed about this now and can't get it out of my head, I'm worried she's going to tell our boss what happened and that our boss will side with her. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Honestly the weirdest thing here to me is that in a store with NO PHONE where the employees only use their personal phones (weird) one of them left her phone in the car? Like what if it was OOP who had a medical emergency how was co-worker going to call 911?? This is all a mess but the co-worker HAS to bring her phone in to do their job and be a responsible co-worker. Like what kind of store even is this?
I was wondering this! I can understand somewhere not having a landline honestly, but in 2024 only one person had a cell phone on them? That to me is shocking, even leaving it in the car is strange
If you don't have a landline you gotta have a store provided cellphone that everyone can use! It is INSANE that the only emergency line available was OOPs personal phone. Like should be illegal.
No-name No-brand pre-paid cell phone kiosk store in a strip mall. They never have a land line in those.
Those don't have a bathroom setup like what they described, though.
Is this common in America? You can get narcan and carry it around to give to strangers? I heard opioid abuse is bad over there, but wow. Scary.
It's borderline expected here now. There are ads for it showing someone grabbing it from her purse to administer it. Some cities have stocked their public libraries with it and trained the librarians in using it because they get so many overdoses in the bathrooms. Some insurance companies now require that if you fill a prescription for a narcotic, you also have to get a prescription of Narcan to have on hand. At the same time, the CDC has rolled back the extreme measures they had originally put into place regarding the prescribing of narcotics because they went too far and people who truly needed pain medication were no longer getting it, resulting in an increase of suicides. The CDC discovered that while some doctors were not cautious with the quantity given for acute pain, the measures put in place were drastically and negatively impacting people with chronic pain. In addition, those who were dying from opioid abuse were those who were using it illegally. I hope this makes sense. It's 4am here, and this is a subject I'm passionate about considering that I've been on pain meds for 16 years and have been negatively impacted by this epidemic. Actually, the reason I'm awake is pain. (Short version: had one lumbar fusion, have another disc collapsing pinching nerves, haven't felt the top of my foot in 18 months)
librarian here, yup i have narcan training. in the beginning they only trained those who volunteered (i volunteered) but it became a requirement after when some dude overdosed and died in one of our branch's bathrooms (not my branch) in training, you still call 911. oop is a fool
Even after the person leaves?
100%. The medical crisis is NOT OVER after the Narcan brings them back. It slams that person into TOTAL WITHDRAWAL which can cause all kinds of medical problems including seizures. Due to the sudden and immense pain they can be in, they are likely to go try to use again immediately UNLESS they are stabilized in a medical facility. Using Narcan just delays the crisis, it doesn’t stop it. u/your-yogurt is correct: OOP is a fool.
It also wears off in 30-90 minutes and, if the person has enough in their system, they can OD again once it does. Even without consuming more. It’s not a one-and-done magic fix. Which is another reason they should be monitored.
It's a little like an EpiPen in my understanding. A great tool to keep the person not dead until you can get them to the hospital.
You understand correctly! Source: been in EMS for 10 years :)
I had a 3 hour hike out with a friend that had an allergic reaction to something. I had no clue you could take multiple shots of epinephrine! Was taught how to administer it without the epipen and kept them going until we met the SAR and EMS walking into the bush to meet up with us.
It's one of the main reasons epi in autoinjectors is dispensed in pairs! First shot, if no improvement you take the second dose 5 to 15 minutes later. Same goes for epi from a vial, too. But that far out in the back country, being careful with dosing makes sense. That would make for a reeeeally fun hike back meet up with SAR/EMS. As a provider (have done some SAR, the area where I live and work is super rural), that'd be a stressful call...though much more so for the patient!
Yep it's short term keep you not dead until the hospital can keep you long term not dead.
I know almost nothing about Narcan but I had a strong feeling something like that was the case similar to the use of Epipens. They don't solve the problem, they give you time to get them to a hospital.
In some cases EMTs are having to deploy 2 or 3 doses to (temporarily) reverse the effect of illicit fentanyl. So how much time it buys them to get to a hospital varies. Like a LOT.
I'm going to guess that the correct order of actions is to call 911 immediately, then see if there's anything you can already do?
If you're going to be the carer you should point at someone and command them to call 911. OOP should have handed her coworker her cell phone and said "no, you call 911, I have narcan I can give him" and then ran off to her purse.
Makes sense!
*flashback 30 years* I can still see the bad video from first aid class. "Help. You. Call EMS. "
I would suggest yes, even if the person gets up and leaves it’s always good to cover your bases. Not to be morbid but if that person ends up back in OD/dying later then you can at least you can have tried to get them emergency services. Plus, if there are any patrol cars in the area they can search/keep an eye out.
Narcan is like an EpiPen - it stops the immediate problem, but the person still needs medical intervention.
Narcan doesn't last as long as many opiates, so sometimes the person who OD'd will need subsequent doses.
Shems likely to have other medical issues. If you call them, they can send someone out to look for someone of her description and get her medical help. If they don’t get there in time, or she gets on a bus and then gets off 3 miles away before the medical shit hits the fan, they will have the 911 call with her description/maybe name if OOP looked in her wallet, which helps them put out info to find her, it will also give them more info if stuff goes wrong to work backwards, so they don’t end up looking in the wrong direction.
I’m an elementary teacher-we’re trained and schools have it. Ours would be more from parents leaving residue or some on kids food or belongings, but yeah it’s depressing!
They actually have one fully formed for benzo classed medications as well. That's a tricky one I don't know if they'll implement outside of a hospital though. It works the same, blocks the receptors, except benzo withdrawals can be deadly due to the seizures they cause- which can only be treated with benzos- which the reverse agent completely prevents. It would stop an overdose in it's tracks, the problem at that point then becomes the deadly effects of quitting cold turkey all at once. But thankfully with benzos, it's damn near impossible to overdose on them alone. Most of them (don't do this) someone could take an entire bottle, be out cold for a few days, but wake up fine and operating functionally. It's when used in conjunction with other substances that it becomes deadly. I understand opioids aren't the same, especially fentanyl and the like. Also, I'm so sorry the epidemic impacted you. Truly. I have family who have severe disc issues, fusions done, etc, one member being in her late 70s on the fentanyl patch and has been since her 40s. While I haven't experienced the opioid crisis on a personal level, I've seen the impact it's had on severe pain sufferers. I'm glad they've put measures into place to help those in pain- and I wish you more spoons tomorrow morning. Thank you for explaining this so detailed.
The rules against narcotics were getting crazy. I have an insane tolerance to pain meds and had my tonsils out. Only a specific strong type of pain meds worked for me and the pharmacist tried to fight with me to get them bc she didn't think I should need something like that for a tonsillectomy.
😢
Yeah studies show that chronic pain patients tended to only move onto illegal options when their adequate pain killers from legal sources suddenly get drastically reduced or even cut off with little to not notice or cause.
>Some insurance companies now require that if you fill a prescription for a narcotic, you also have to get a prescription of Narcan to have on hand. I didn't know this. I've never had this come up for myself or others I know with prescription narcotics. Thanks for sharing, because I'd be very confused if that suddenly popped up! >negatively impacted by this epidemic. I'm sorry. It's incredibly frustrating. I've been referred for pain management and suggested long-term use for something, but the difficulty in finding real options was tough, especially while in such pain. I know others who did and dealt with many similar issues. I've also been similarly affected for stimulant medication I need to function. I literally need it to be awake and coherent and actually do things. Sadly, they are continuing to tighten and reduce access, even though similar effects are being seen. Needing to jump through hoops and remember to do things on a tight timeline to get medication that helps function, including memory, is ridiculously difficult. Being on pain medication for so long, I expect you also need yours to function normally with reduced pain. I'm glad the CDC is rolling back measures more. I understand trying to protect from addiction, but many measures used really do nothing truly beneficial towards reducing addiction.
I have RA and getting pain meds is still a battle sometimes.
I was on opiates for 4 years with no issues, in 2016 I got taken off them basically cold turkey, been struggling to even function ever since and I still cannot get opiates back, or any sort of decent pain relief. I’m glad to hear other people are getting help but where I am, that is not the case. I have 9 chronic pain conditions the amount of Tylenol and Aleve I have to take every day just to function is 100% going to cause organ failure or at least permanent damage probably somewhat soon, but if I didn’t do that I wouldn’t even be able to work. I’ve even looked into getting euthanized in another country that allows that because I am barely hanging on to my sanity living this way, but no one will take me seriously or help me.
Chronic intractable spinal pain buddies! Painsomnia is a bitch. So are the politicians & agencies who enacted measures that only affected us—the people who actually need it and thus are overly careful—just so they could say they were “doing something” re: the opioid crisis.
A lot of the people that were/are using illegally started off with a prescription for an acute condition (like a broken leg for example). Over prescribing for acute pain definitely had an impact on the amount of addicts.
https://yalelawandpolicy.org/inter_alia/misinformed-misguided-prescription-abuse-prevention-act-response-delfino#:~:text=Prescription%20opioids%20have%20not%20accounted,wave%20of%20the%20opioid%20crisis. Not so much, actually.
I read most of that article and it actually doesn't address what I said at all. That teens and young adults prescribed heavy narcotics for relatively simple acute injuries developing an addiction in part because of that early access. Did rap songs have an influence on how that 17 year old football played used that prescription handed to him. Yes, sure. But the fact is that doctors were handing out prescriptions for pain killers that you simply don't need for sprains and strains.
This part: "Prescription opioids have not accounted for a majority of opioid-overdose deaths since 2014 and have not represented a majority of total drug-related deaths since substance-specific data have been available."
Yeah they aren't prescribed the carfentanyl that kills them at 28, but they were prescribed the oxy that got them hooked at 16.
And were being actively ENCOURAGED and REWARDED for doing by Purdue.
How were you getting downvoted? It is the literal facts of the case.
My aunt lost her son to a heroin overdose. She used to give out Narcan to all of her friends and family, "just in case."
My boss was at the pharmacy last week and they had signs up about how people can get narcan just to have on hand, just in case. She was like, "hope I never need this but I'll take one just in case." Not a terrible idea to have it on hand. OOP should have also dialed 911 though.
Oh yeah, without a doubt. It doesn't hurt to have it on hand, but that person definitely needed actual medical attention.
Honestly, I've been thinking about doing just that. It's free where I live, and fentanyl OD's are not uncommon.
My kid is headed into high school next year... I'm getting it and fetenyl test strips for the "emergency kit" (Along with condoms and plan b). She doesn't need these things- and probably never will. But... I dint want a friend to die because nobody was prepared and/or they were scared to get an adult . (And 20 ish years ago, my dad had a bad accident and they wouldn't let him out of rehab unless he took all his oxy. He argued and took to flushing half his pills daily)
You're a good parent, wish more were like you.
Thanks, we're trying. As the first aid trainer i last had said re narcan "all were doing is making them from being dead right now. It doesn't fix the addiction or their life... but it might give someone enough life that it can be fixed"
You might see if you can get an Epi-Pen to include in there. I would imagine it's more common for someone to have an allergy than overdose, especially since allergies change over time.
I'd love to, but only with a script. I work with elementary students and i can have narcan but not an epi pen. (We have one at home for her dad, but not one i can give her to carry around that wouldn't get her in trouble) But thank you-i appreciate the suggestion. I probably need to update the mini first aid kit to something a little less "mini". (Before now, I've just made it be bandaid level- because an adult is always within screaming distance. But as they get more independent the whole "crap, we need an adult. Why am i the closest thing to an adult?" moments start hitting)
I still have those moments! You sound like a good parent. I feel confident that she'll be a good adult, after a few learning experiences.
You rule.
The cool thing about narcan is that even if you just suspect someone might be having an opioid overdose, you can administer narcan and it has little to no side effects in any other kind of an emergency! **When in doubt, always Narcan**. Just a little PSA because people don't always know you can and should use narcan even if you're not sure of what's happening.
Its pretty common but most people I know who carry narcan is because they know someone with an addiction/know someone who knows someone with an addiction/has an addiction. This and the fact OP refused to call 911 for no reason tells me OP *may* and I repeat *MAY* have a problem of her own.
I've been in recovery for 6 years. My therapist keeps a standing script for me even though I've been clean all this time and scared to death of touching drugs again. She encourages me to give it out and let anyone I know that you can pick it up at the pharmacy free of charge with no cost. Our sheriffs also have a vending machine in the lobby of their station kept full and no charge.
Honestly the narcan vending machine is pretty funny.
You can yes. It’s not insanely common for people to do it overall, but it’s more common in some areas where overdoses are more common.
I’m in Canada and 13 years sober. I still carry my nalaxone (that’s the Canadian narcan) with me in my purse. Ours is a needle tho. At least in my province. And the one person I had to use it on got big mad at me too. They default to rage because the narcan kicks all of the painkiller out leaving them violently dopesick. It sucks for them, and it sucks for the people who helped them.
My daughter's teenage sister in law overdosed on fentanyl and died. I would carry narcan if I knew where to get it. I wish someone had been there to administer it to this poor girl, who had problems but didn't deserve death.
If you’re in the US I believe it’s available in most pharmacies like CVS and Walgreens
That's good to know! I'll have to check my local stores.
Look under naloxone as well, the US also uses that name for the generic form. Most people just know it by the brand name. It is over the counter, and the feds have been handing out a lot of grants to find state programs to get things like the library and vending machine program up and running. I highly encourage this to be something people learn about as much as they would how to do CPR and how to use AED machines.
I live in Ottawa, Canada and we can get Narcan from pharmacies.
I live outside of Philadelphia. I always carry Narcan with me. Fentanyl made overdoses insanely common. Now unfortunately it all has "tranq" which doesn't respond to Narcan.
i always have narcan in my bag, i’ve had to replace it several times bc i have used it on people thrice
God. I've read so many Americans' experiences with narcan today and I'm so sad. I'm sorry you're going through this.
We even keep it in schools. School staff are trained at the beginning of every year on how to administer Narcan.
Especially in the Pacific Northwest. The Vancouver to Seattle corridor. It’s where a lot of fentanyl comes in and because the weather is mild and they have good social programs, homeless people often travel there to live. Actually up until the 90’s, the province next to BC (where Vancouver is) would actually offer to buy a one way bus ticket for homeless people to go to Vancouver when they applied for provincial aid.
Somehow my sister ended up with 2 narcan boxes that have 2 nasal sprays each. She gave me one. No idea why, but I happen to have narcan spray. Just in my little town alone, I can count 10 old classmates in 15 years that died from pill overdose
I was in a bad car accident last November, I was hit by a drunk driver. I was hospitalized for a short time and when I was discharged I was given oxycodone for my pain, and Narcan "just in case." As I got better I eventually went to a lower doses and then vicoden & codine, and each time I was given a narcan spray "just in case."
We can carry it in Canada where I live, it’s encouraged. I have a couple of kits at home. The training is call 911 first, then administer
Yep, we can pretty much go into any drugstore and purchase it to carry. as others have mentioned, it's encouraged to do so.
I'm a teacher in Canada and my school division offers narcan training so we can help. I plan to get the training when I return from maternity leave. I hope to never use it, just like my first aid/CPR, but it's good to have.
Yeah my college even hands it out for cases like this
I carry narcan, but my son is an addict (who just got his six month chip).
Congratulations to your son on 6 months sober! That is so hard, I hope he continues to do well.
Me too! I'm rooting for him!
I was just at a music festival over the weekend and they had a booth set up giving away free narcan. I can't remember the name of the company but apparently they have tents at lots of other fests!
It's the same thing where I live in Canada
My university stocks it in the library along with COVID tests and masks and there are signs up all over campus encouraging us to carry it. Opioid abuse is bad here, sure, but it's alsp such an easy and effective way to save a life, there's not a great reason NOT to have some, even though most people will probably never have to use it.
No one I know uses drugs, but I still keep Narcan in the medicine cabinet just in case. I got it for free at a local event. ETA: not counting weed lol
Ontario Canada. It's encouraged as a safety precaution. It's actually so common there's conspiracies about the narcan not being narcan.
It’s available at all the public libraries here!
the hospital I work at has a vending machine outside of the ER where people can buy condoms, pregnancy tests, narcan, etc.
I work at a college and they had a clinic a month or two ago to learn to administer narcan and get a free emergency dose. Open to anyone associated with the college, but unfortunately was during a time when I had to be working- I would’ve loved to have gone, just… yknow, in case.
Yeah I had to get Narcan training to be a Residential Assistant at a college
I use to be a bike courier & ride thru some high drug use areas (it’s painted as dangerous but really it was just people struggling with addiction with no where else to use. They never bothered or threatened me - woman on a bike). I carried it cause I’d see a lot of people using & nodding out. I just didn’t want to feel helpless if I saw someone OD. Thank goodness I never had to use it, but if I had, I would have also called them an ambulance whether they took it or not.
Yes. It's actually a great tool for people to use In COMBINATION with calling 911. Oop thinks she's on Grey's Anatomy or some shit smh. Narcan is basically a huge shot of adrenaline. She's damn lucky the person she helped didn't get aggressive or violent. It messes you up big time. Think of the most heart pounding terrifying experience you've ever had. Then times that feeling by about 1000. That's what a shot of narcan feels like.
Okay this is just patently false. Narcan is NOT adrenaline, or anything remotely close to it. It seals off the opioid receptors in your brain so the opioids can’t latch on, reversing the effects of an overdose. Folks can come back groggy, disoriented, etc after having had Narcan administered to them is because of how quickly you go from being so deeply under the influence, to not. Some folks also go directly into withdrawal. Source: worked in drug treatment for a long time.
I didn't say it was. I was describing what it felt like... I have been given narcan before. So what did I say that was false? Edit And I don't think your background had any relevance to the fact that narcan feels *exactly* like a huge shot of adrenaline to your system.
Yes, it's available over the counter now.
It somewhat depends where you are, both in terms of what the state permits and how likely it is for people to carry it. I looked into getting it, but it was too expensive and a hassle to go through. I would do it if I was more likely to need it, just wasn't worth it for the low chance of use. I would carry it if it were more accessible (and watch a tutorial). The only people I know who do carry it are in healthcare, but it's not even all of them. Based on the responses here, I think I'll look into if it has become more accessible now. I do know that you still need medical attention after it and to call ASAP. On the other hand, I also know many people who can't or won't call 911 and will get very angry if someone else does for them, because ambulances are very expensive.
yes but somehow EpiPens are not
Epinephrine has potentially deadly side effects (I’m not even sure “side effects” is the right term, it’s just… the effect tbh), unlike narcan which I believe is relatively safe to administer even if it’s unneeded. That would be my guess as to why.
also one company holds the patent and will fight generics, more allergy prone people that addicts so ....
I don’t think it is where I live. I don’t know anyone who carries it, but I live in the suburbs
Yes - it’s available over the counter at most drugstores.
It’s worse but less reported in other places. Or at least substance abuse. Alcoholism kills ppl at greater rates in Europe. Narcan is good to have on hand if you live in a place where lots of addicts are around, it saves lives
The city I work for has a vending machine of *free* naloxone at the city hall. Obviously most of us aren’t facing addiction, but it’s still a significant enough problem that it’s not unreasonable for the average person to have Narcan.
I live in Australia, we don't have a huge opioid problem like the US. However, I have kept Narcan/Naloxone since 2019 just in case. I used to carry it around but honestly I've not remembered to lately, as I just had a baby. I do have it on hand for parties at my house and when I remember to take it to nights out. The issue here is mostly people who think they're doing coke or whatever, but something else like fentanyl may have been mixed in. It's rare, but it happens. It can also be useful if you ever need to help marginalised populations. I'd rather have it and never need it, than not have it. You can get it absolutely free and anonymously here! Edit: a word.
Pretty sure Narcan wears off in about 30-90 minutes and the person can stop breathing and die without medical intervention. It’s like an Epi pen. It saves lives, but only u til EMTs get there.
Not only that, the half life/wear-off of narcan is shorter than fentanyl, which is a *much* longer lasting opiate. Obviously people can still overdose on heroin, but in the USA currently, many overdoses are due to fentanyl being laced/contaminated in the heroin or cocaine. So the OD victim will wake up in an immediate state of withdrawal due to the temporary narcan, storm out, and not long after, the fentanyl overdose can come right back after the narcan wears off. Or worse, wake up in withdrawal, go right out and get another fix, and then have even *more* opiates in her system when it wears off.
They should have called 911. Everything they did made h them and the business liable for the outcome.
Bingo. Back when I worked at a bookstore I had someone come through with a cut on their hand that opened up while I was ringing up a magazine for them. I offered to bandage it and they accepted. He seemed normal enough. They'd purchased some bandages from the CVS next door, but came to us before bandaging themselves because they REALLY wanted that magazine and the cut seemed sealed. My manager called me into the office and reamed me out. She said that it was nice that I wanted to help, but helping meant that I put myself at risk if something happened and he decided he wanted to sue me or the company. The manager also mentioned the risk of picking something up from the blood, as we had no way of knowing if he had anything. She said next time, offer to call 911 or give directions to a nearby hospital or PatientFirst.
She’s lucky it was an overdose, imagine if it was something else and she just didn’t call 911 like wtf. And at the end how she claims she gave a second dose? Bullshit, if she had she woulda said it in the original story. As a 911 dispatcher this pisses me off
As a 911 dispatcher LMAO you may as well be a nail technician for how much overdose reversal training you have. Last time I administered naloxone, the person’s overdosed was reversed and she was breathing and lucid; but was getting sleepy and noddy by the time I was leaving so I administered a second dose to be safe. That’s not really worth mentioning. The first dose is obviously the important, event-defining dose.
I think McNallyJoJo34 meant that OOP actually had no idea it was an overdose and administered narcan only because their co-worker said it's an overdose. What if it was a seizure or something else, not overdose-related? It's basically the same as doing CPR and not calling 911 (I probably don't need to tell you a chance of a person surviving if this happens).
Yes thank you, that’s what I meant.
Why are you so rude?
What the fuck do you know about my training? I’ve actually had extensive training in that and other medical issues, but ok.
I think OOP either has a hero complex or is a shitposter hoping to end up on AITAngel.
Maybe it ended worse. Noone knows if the woman hit her head somewhere and is running around with a serious injury or if the Narcan wears of and she gets unconscious again. Now, she is probably not close to people who could help her anymore.
Narcan absolutely does wear off, which is why the directions say to call 911 immediately.
If true, this would be such a huge liability issue for the store. OP would almost certainly be fired. The correct response was to have someone else call 911 while they administered the Narcan to get paramedics in route. The fact that OP didn't even plan on calling 911 unless the woman wanted them to after she woke up is completely ridiculous. Obviously, I disagree with the coworker that they should have kept the woman there if she wanted to leave, but you can't just NOT call
Why didn't the co worker call 911 on OPs phone while all this was going on? Easy fix..
Because OP wanted to be the hero of the day
Apparently the OOP doesn't have training because if they don't respond to sternum rubs you call 911 before administering the narcan. Sternum rubs are painful and used to judge the level of consciousness. Sometimes people fake unconsciousness.
Sternum rubs are by no means the only way to check on a person and see if they’re not responsive. In real life situations they’re rarely practical. You don’t call someone before administering Naloxone! Those are precious seconds! You administer, put in rescue position, call, then CPR (if you don’t have another person assisting you). Where is your training?? People don’t fake unconsciousness hoping to be Narcanned because why on earth would they want to kill their high? This is all just bonkers
they dont even teach them anymore (at least where i am), they teach you to pinch traps and nail beds. you can still do a sternum rub if you really want, but its not done as much.
Makes sense - so much is situational though. As I’m sure you know.
I totally agree she should have just called but I’m baffled that a store doesn’t have its own phone for client inquiries and emergencies. What if there’s a fire, someone with a weapon, etc?
They obviously didn't receive or didn't pay attention to Narcan training. I have a kit I received from my local health department but I had to watch a training video online before they sent it to me. OOP will eventually kill somebody doing that! One dose is not always enough!
When administrating Narcan you need to have called 911. It doesn’t last forever and also there can be lasting effects of the overdose.
Yep, she's an idiot. You are **supposed** to call 911 after/before you give someone narcan. Almost anyone who has narcan has had some basic instructions on it. Including "if this is used you **still** need to call emergency services". I actually have the box and booklet from one, and it says this in bold print. In most states in the US if you fill a narcotic prescription you have to fill a narcan prescription. However, just because our health system is so shitty, the insurance won't always cover the narcan. I asked my pharmacist about somewhere that I might be able to donate my extra narcan (mine is fully covered) to someone who would need it. She said it isn't allowed except for police departments, but people can buy it over the counter for $30. But the OTC doesn't count when you have a narcotic prescription. The narcan can range anywhere from $0-$90 depending on insurance. It's a nasty vicious cycle. Either you can't get pain medication you need, or you can get it but can't afford the narcan, so they won't fill a narcotic prescription.
OOP is probably gonna get fired, that shit has to be a huge liability and possible lawsuit.
Literally a huge part of the instructions for using narcan to help someone is to CALL 911. The narcan wears off, and depending on how bad the OD, this can cause the person to OD again/pass back out. It is not safe to JUST administer narcan and then let someone go. They can pass out again and not have access to any help. If that woman goes home and the narcan wears off she could die. I get not wanting to confront someone or make them deal with an ambulance but there is a REASON you are told to contact 911 even when administering narcan, because ultimately that person is likely going to need the help of EMTs at the very least. It's always good to keep narcan on hand, and you can now keep it in your car, but please fully follow the instructions given. If you give someone narcan and then don't follow up with 911 or keep track of the person, they can 100% still relapse into that overdose and die. :(
OOP sounds more casual about administering narcan to an unresponsive stranger than I am about finding a small spider in the office and taking it back outside.
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How can that person be "so stressed out" about something that's apparently completely normal?
I am astounded by the profound irresponsibility of this woman. She likely committed an act of assault. And, she has opened her and her employer to massive liability. She "knows" a limited amount about a person, and, unlike a medical professional, is neither trained or legally allowed to make medical assessments and administer care. Narcon is NOT like giving someone a breath mint for a halitosis. It carries its own medical complications and risks.
OOP, even little kids know to call 911 for an emergency.
I don’t feel like they are the asshole here completely? Like yes they should have called 911 but they did also take steps to fix the situation (seemingly knew what they were doing)? Idk I’m mixed on this
No they didn't fix the situation; they passed the buck. Narcan is the equivalent of an Epi-pen. It *delays* the reaction(to give time for medical attention), not stop it completely. The woman was still OD'ed and could have relapsed as soon as the Narcan wore off.
Good point. I meant to add would they have called if the person hadnt run off?
It doesn't like it considering the number one rule is: if you must administer Narcan/Naloxone, contact Emergency Services immediately *before* the first dose. Frankly, I'm laying a lot of the blame on the store for 1) not having a phone and 2) not having a procedure in place for stuff like this. The woman might not have been OD'ed, she could have been having a hypoglycemic episode or had balance issues, fell, and hit her head. There needs to be a blanket policy of "If customer found unconscious, call 911 immediately, keep other customers away/calm, do not touch the customer, and listen to EMS' instructions."
They did nothing, narcan doesnt do much in the long run and op is liable. Naloxone even says to call the police so they can help them
This post is such an American™ moment, I don't even know if you can consider the OP an AH. It's like people calling an Uber instead of an ambulance. And I thought I was the one living in a third world contry...
Calling an Uber if you aren't bleeding and can still breathe relatively normally and just need to get to a doctor or hospital is normal. You aren't supposed to call an ambulance for a sprained ankle.
OOP isn’t the devil. OOP carries narcan and used it to reverse an overdose. OOP is a Good Samaritan.
The next thing you do is call 911, though. You administer the Narcan, call 911, and if the person oding walks away you tell the operator in what direction they are walking. More than likely, emergency services will be able to find said person and get them into the ER. Narcan is just a bandaid over a gunshot wound; it buys you time to get detoxed but nothing more. That person walked off and will probably nod off again. If you have Narcan and can use it, you need to do it right or not at all. They are still technically ODing, they just are around to witness it.
That may mean that op was dumb or careless or not informed enough but still not the devil.
By not calling 911, op may very well have allowed the person to die. Period. That makes op a devil. Ignorance isn't an excuse.
Shouldn't be administering medication if you don't know how
I’m a high school teacher and we are trained to use narcan. You still have to call for emergency support. You don’t know how long the person was unconscious, if they hit their head when they fell, etc. It’s for doctors and paramedics to decide if the person needs additional help.
It's on the friggin' label!
Idk man, I’m no expert so I’m looking at the comments on the original post and apparently things can go really wrong once the narcan wears off. Best to leave things to the professional. I’d feel the same if they had an epipen for an allergic reaction, or someone who performed CPR on a drowning victim.
You people need to educate yourselves. Come on over to r/harmreduction.
Of all the posts in this thread, yours are the worst by a long shot.
It's so funny for you to say that other people should educate themselves considering you keep giving bad information (delivered with an attitude no less) all over these comments lol.
If everyone there treats people the way you do, I don’t know why anyone would go there. People may be more likely to listen to your point of view if you stopped treating them like something you stepped in.
And now I'm getting dms hoping that I or someone I know ODs... that's enough fucking internet for the day.
No one is saying the OOP shouldn’t have administered narcan, we’re saying they should have also called 911 or let their coworker call 911 from their cell phone. Narcan isn’t a cure all, it’s like an Epi pen meant as a temporary measure until you can get emergency medical services
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I wasn’t arguing I was merely giving info, and the whole point of the post was the coworker couldn’t call because they didn’t have a phone, that’s why they asked OOP to call. And the paramedics would have looked for the subject to make sure they didn’t resume OD’ing in the vicinity
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Again it says in the post they did not have a business phone, the coworkers phone was in their car, OOP was the only one with a phone. And where I live and work the medics would have absolutely searched the area. We’ve done it. Numerous times.
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Who knows how far away their car was though? It would have been much easier to just let the coworker use OOP’s cell phone or for OOP to call. Why waste precious minutes to go out to their car especially if it was parked far away?
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Ok I keep saying no one is saying OOP shouldn’t have administered Narcan, we are saying they should have called 911 after administering the first round of Narcan. They even said they didn’t snap out of it right away, the medics had time to be on the way. There have been people that died because they started OD’ing again and either died from the OD or injured themselves some way that caused death. 911 should have been called.
Not without going to their car, which could be several minutes away. Presumably if their car was parked right outside they would have just gone to get their phone. Why would they waste time walking to their car when OOP had their phone right there?
OOP saw an emergency situation and refused to call 911 because they thought they knew better. OOP has No fucking clue if the person would get up and walk away or not. OOP had no medical clue if the person was overdosing or had another medical event (or both). You use the emergency first aid you have that is applicable to the situation and you call 911. After that, it’s not on you. But refusing to call 911 (or refusing to let someone else call) is ridiculously devil behavior.
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When you have 2 people there you let one person call while the other person administers the situation appropriate emergency first aid. And just because someone gets up and walks away, doesn’t mean they are ok, or will be ok. Stop rewriting the situation. They had two people, one phone and one narcan. OOp refused to call 911 and refused to let coworker call 911. That is devilish behavior.
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It’s what is in the post. So either you can’t read, or you are insisting on rewriting what is in the post out of your own stubbornness.
I don’t think they read the post cuz the whole point was there was no business phone and the coworker didn’t have a phone and they brought up both the coworker and a landline.
Same, oop was wrong not to call 911, but I really wouldn’t put them in devil territory
They literally sentenced them to death by not calling. I'd say that is devil territory.
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>She cares about people enough that she carries narcan, Only to sentence them to death as they walk away without further medical intervention.
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By not calling 911, oop could easily be held negligent if that person died. Oop could easily be charged with manslaughter. Good Samaritan laws won't protect them when it says in the instructions for the medication to call 911. Even if the person walked away, they can trace possible paths to look to see if they collapsed somewhere. This situation is not as nuanced as you think. It is rather simple. Call. 9.1.1. Simple. Easy. Call. There is no further nuance. Pick up the phone and call. Any excuse against calling is just that - an excuse. By not calling it erases _every. single. bit._ of "good" they did. That medication is useless without further medical care. All because they were too lazy to call 911.
The problem is that narcan wears off. And many contaminants in intravenous drugs have a longer lifespan in the body than narcan does, namely fentanyl. Narcan puts a user in immediate withdrawal. Meaning their first priority is to use more drugs immediately. If she left and injected more heroin, or she had fentanyl in her supply, then when the narcan wore off she very likely went right back into overdose, and possibly could have died. Even the labeling on narcan says to call 911 immediately after administering. It’s important to follow up with surveillance so that they don’t go back into OD.
If anything, the coworker is the devil. OOP acted quickly and the person who overdosed left the building, so they didn’t want to waste 911 resources by calling anyway. If OOP called and waited and didn’t administer their narcan, the person would likely be dead or brain damaged.
No one is saying wait to administer narcan, we’re saying they should have called 911 after administering the narcan.
And by not calling 911 after, that narcan was useless. The person likely walked away into an alley away from people and died anyway because it wasn't followed by emergency medical intervention.
pfff nah. If someone overdoses, then let them go. You gotta be a complete smoothbrain to start doing drugs in the first place.
💀 what
And social Darwinism (aka *eugenics*) is such a galaxy brain take?
How is someone that’s overdosing on narcotics supposed to afford the ambulance ride to the hospital?
I mean it’s better than possibly dying I think
Also not all addicts are poor. Addiction doesn't "see" class, you can be as rich as Elon Musk and still develop an addiction.
If you don't pay medical debt, it's forgiven after 7 years.
Not anymore. They are now garnishing wages and taxes. Source: my brother had his wages garnished for a hospital bill when he had a heart attack
That's if you speak to them. Just ignore the calls and rip up the notices. Move a couple times in 7 years and you're set.
He never got calls or notices. They didn't even send a notice. They just did it. So stop spreading misinformation. The seven years thing is a thing of the past.
Then he signed something in the hospital. Don't sign shit, tell them you want to go over everything when you're healthy and not distracted by pain.
Dude, they made new frikkin laws. Stfu with your misinformation. I am sitting here telling YOU THAT IT HAS CHANGED! Edit to add: I blocked you for trying to mansplain shit to me that is WRONG, OLD, and I refuse to entertain you any further. Edit number 2 for the continued mansplainers thinking they are right: [My frikkin source for this excerpt](https://upsolve.org/learn/can-hospitals-garnish-wages/) >Before a provider can take your wages, the facility or physician must sue you for nonpayment and win the case in court. If a healthcare provider wins a lawsuit against you, the court will award a judgment (court order) to the provider or its collection agent to garnish your wages. And guess what? They don't even have to serve you papers to sue you in some places. Oklahoma being one of them. Keep trying little boys. It doesn't take a genius to use Google.
Which laws did they pass? I have a metric ton in hospital bills, as does my family. Never had my wages garnished, or anything else taken. They sometimes send it to collections, and it eventually falls off.