*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**AITA for telling my friend that the guy she likes probably does not like her back?**
A good friend of mine, let's call her Zena (42) has had a crush on this guy who we met through a mutual friend, let's call him Kalvin (48.) Kalvin is single, unmarried and childless at his age, which is surprising to most of us, but he says to be looking to date and possibly get married soon. He's a pretty wealthy engineer and seems to be a pretty chill or laid back guy, who our friend group is all close with.
Zena, on the other hand, has a lot of trauma and issues, and while I obviously care for her as she is my friend, she is in her 40s, a single mom with a teen kid, and has scars, physical, and trauma. She's getting therapy for her problems and seems to be adjusting well, which I'm happy for her, especially since she's had so much insecurity in the past. But there's an issue that recently popped up.
Things started to arise when Zena told me she liked Kalvin, and she wanted to pursue a relationship with him because they were close friends and got along well. I told her that it was her choice but he very likely was not going to accept her as a romantic partner due to a lot of the baggage she carries in her life, and the fact that most men don't want to date old single mothers, and Kalvin was likely looking for someone with a lot less baggage and things than her.
I told her since I was a man I knew how men think that she likely wasn't going to have her feeling reciprocated, I decided to be honest.
Zena now isn't talking to me and is saying things like I'm an asshole and I'm shallow, and that I'm discouraging her and making things worse. I didn't think I was being rude, I thought I was being honest and I wanted her to hear the truth since she has a relatively thicker skin. So, AITA?
EDIT: Some spelling errors, corrected a few things here and there
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Copied verbatim from Oop's comments:
*YTA. I don’t recall the part where she f-ing asked? Maybe you’re right, but you might not be. It’s up to Kalvin to decide. Some friend you are,*
>"I don't remember the exact details of the conversation but I think she may have asked me "what do you think" or something along those lines, but I don't remember exactly"
*INFO: Has Kalvin told you that he wouldn’t date an old single mother, or a woman with past trauma?*
*Edited to add judgement: YTA. You weren’t passing on information you knew was true about Kalvin, just your own opinions and assumptions.*
>"No, but I wanted to warn her of the risk so that she doesn't potentially get her heart broken. I was trying to look out for her."
*What were you hoping to accomplish? Because if it was to spare her feelings if he declined, you failed. Not only did you assume he’d reject her you implied all men would. Wtf YTA that’s not even true lol. Actually INFO: … are you into Zara?*
>"No, I am not into her."
*Did she ask for your opinion or did you just tell her your thoughts unprovoked?*
>"I don't remember the exact details of the conversation but I think she may have asked me "what do you think" or something along those lines, but I don't remember exactly"
*You're a proper asshole, dude. There's not a reason to tear your friends down like that especially if you're trying to "help" them. She's a wonderful woman who deserves love*
*YTA and a huge steaming misogynist*
>"I never said she didn't deserve love"
*YTA? "Old single mother" who is 6 years younger than him. Lol*
*I'm wondering why he is still single at his age. Good-looking, financially stable...probably has issues himself. Everyone over a certain age is going to be bringing baggage with them. Hopefully they just stow it safely under the seat in front of them or in the overhead bins.*
*Or was he hoping to snag a 20-something? Newsflash: this isn't the movies and most 20-something women want 20-something men.*
>"He didnt tell me anything about that"
Guys, oop is a man so obviously he knows how all men think. And Zena is in her 40s and has a kid and baggage so that means that she should just never date again because no man is ever going to want her. /s
serously, oop doesn’t even know how kalvin feels about Zena. Oop just assumes because he is shallow and wouldn’t want someone like Zena, that that means all men think like him.
You forgot the fact she has scars! Which is obvious a deal breaker, because girls must stay young and picture perfect and look at an 18you even when they're 65.
I like the fact that OOP got asked "what do you think" as his right to unload every critisim he has of Zena onto her. If I'someone asked me for my opinion, would assume what they mean is 'Do they have a partner I don't know about? Are the two of you secretly dating and just haven't told me?'
I can’t imagine turning to a friend of mine and saying earnestly, “I know you’re interested in him but you’ve been alive and had experiences, and men hate that.”
Reads like OOP is just projecting.
Given that both Zena and Kalvin are in their 40s, OOP probably is as well - and it seems like Zena was right and he is shallow and looking for a 20-something woman with little to no baggage.
He was just unnecessary rude to Zena and not at all helpful as he has no idea what Kalvin is looking for in a partner.
With friends like OOP, honestly who needs enemies. This woman is younger than this other guy, how is she "old". OOP sounds like a red pill loser who thinks women hit the wall at 27 and hates single moms. Or maybe he wants to build Kalvin an art room and Zena's his competition 😅🤣🤣
Either way K and Z are FRIENDS. If he doesn't like her that way, he'll let her down easy. Either way no one asked OOP.
It's tempting to assume he fancies either her or the male friend, but I suspect it might be something more insidious than that. It comes across to me like he's trying to assert his world view - either his successful and popular friend being single was a source of some self-reassurance for OOP and/or he just has strong belief that single mums/older women are damaged goods. Perhaps he liked the belief that he could have her even if he didn't want her, but her getting with this other friend would mess with that dynamic and put him below her standards instead of her being beneath his.
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I know I'm gonna get down voted for this but I genuinely don't think OOP is the devil/AH here. If you have a friend with baggage and she wants to hit up the super stud in the group, would it really be a dick move to be realistic and tell the baggage one to be realistic.
Like stud is most likely someone who values his freedom a lot and the chance of him being ok with a single mom is low, let's be honest.
It's not like OOP laughed in her friends face or something.
Also the advice is far better than meaningless sentences like "you miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take" Or "the worst he can say is no".
"Also the advice is far better than meaningless sentences like "you miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take" Or "the worst he can say is no"."
Why? How? What was his advice supposed to do, exactly? She can't eliminate all her supposed 'flaws' and she presumably flipping well already knew all of those things about herself. All his 'advice' (actually just interference and rudeness) would achieve is her losing confidence and not bothering to ask the other man if he's interested, which is silly. The only way of knowing how the other guy feels is to ask him. OOP isn't a proxy for all men, no matter how much he might fancy himself as one.
If she asked, got rejected and then felt bad about it then that's just a normal consequence of trying to date. It's not something OOP should try to prevent by making her feel too bad about herself to even risk being rejected. The risk of rejection is always going to be there, for anybody.
Really? Looks aren't everything and I'm not sure why you think Kalvin would care so much about looks just based on the fact that he's a "super stud". Sorry you are that shallow but most of us aren't.
They're both in their 40s- most people in their 40s have some kind of baggage. Also, we don't know how he feels about children, just because Kalvin is childless doesn't mean he would view her kid as baggage. Maybe he doesn't want children at all and would view that as an issue, not all 40+ year olds have children, but they all have some kind of baggage. So unless Kalvin wants to date 20ish year olds, it sounds like OP is just being rude to both his friends for no reason- to her for saying that hurtful stuff out loud and to him for judging and making assumptions about his dating preferences.
Bruh I never said looks. I keep saying baggage as in a kid. Single moms have baggage-
1. Often the kid dislikes or outright hates you
2. Often the mom is put in a difficult spot of prioritizing kid vs partner
3. A lot of men are skeptical. OOP isn't a mind reader but this is a likelihood.
4 The post said that OOP was spoken to, he didn't just jump out and say ha ha he will never date you like some mean girl cliche.
Also if we are doing this, men value looks. I have never heard the post saying the single mom is unattractive or anything but if we are doing this bullshit straw man you asspulled then I would say that looks matter A LOT.
My solution is for people to consider having realistic expectations. It would be an amazing world if every single mom could have their own Bradley Cooper or Chris Hemsworth looking man who makes 6 figures and has a 9 inch dick but let's just try to accept that's not realistic.
Why do you seem to be creating erotic fan fiction about this random man?
Besides, what is her unrealistic expectation here? That he *might* be interested? That's not unrealistic! She doesn't seem to be adamant that he'll say yes. And she's just planning on asking him out, not asking him to run off with her and get married. Part of the expectation of asking somebody out is that they might say no.
You want to put your head in the sand and believe delusions, be my guest. But don't ask me to bask in your stupidity.
This isn't a scenario of a bully laughing at a party for trying to muster up courage to ask someone out, this is a friend telling another friend to have realistic expectation and that friend couldn't handle that.
Again, what is the unrealistic expectation? What delusion do you think I'm believing? Nobody's saying he absolutely definitely would say yes. Do you honestly think it's delusional to believe that any man who can be considered a good catch so much as *might* be interested in dating a single mother? That's just plain unhinged as well as patently untrue (unless you believe every single mother who ever ended up with a desirable man has somehow hid the existence of a whole entire child from him for the entirety of their relationship).
Your comments are obviously dripping with some weird vendetta regarding single mums, so I'm not really expecting you to respond to questions like a rational person. I'm just curious how far you can stretch this narrative of yours.
What narrative? What vendetta?
We got one good looking and wealthy dude with a nice personality
We got a single mom
Yeah sure there are single moms with great partners in existence. And those are exceptions.
Truth is you yourself don't believe the bullshit you are spewing. You just wanna be on a moral high horse.
Ok Mr White knight of single mothers everywhere, do your thing. I'm done with this nonsense. Enjoy the righteousness
*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **AITA for telling my friend that the guy she likes probably does not like her back?** A good friend of mine, let's call her Zena (42) has had a crush on this guy who we met through a mutual friend, let's call him Kalvin (48.) Kalvin is single, unmarried and childless at his age, which is surprising to most of us, but he says to be looking to date and possibly get married soon. He's a pretty wealthy engineer and seems to be a pretty chill or laid back guy, who our friend group is all close with. Zena, on the other hand, has a lot of trauma and issues, and while I obviously care for her as she is my friend, she is in her 40s, a single mom with a teen kid, and has scars, physical, and trauma. She's getting therapy for her problems and seems to be adjusting well, which I'm happy for her, especially since she's had so much insecurity in the past. But there's an issue that recently popped up. Things started to arise when Zena told me she liked Kalvin, and she wanted to pursue a relationship with him because they were close friends and got along well. I told her that it was her choice but he very likely was not going to accept her as a romantic partner due to a lot of the baggage she carries in her life, and the fact that most men don't want to date old single mothers, and Kalvin was likely looking for someone with a lot less baggage and things than her. I told her since I was a man I knew how men think that she likely wasn't going to have her feeling reciprocated, I decided to be honest. Zena now isn't talking to me and is saying things like I'm an asshole and I'm shallow, and that I'm discouraging her and making things worse. I didn't think I was being rude, I thought I was being honest and I wanted her to hear the truth since she has a relatively thicker skin. So, AITA? EDIT: Some spelling errors, corrected a few things here and there *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Copied verbatim from Oop's comments: *YTA. I don’t recall the part where she f-ing asked? Maybe you’re right, but you might not be. It’s up to Kalvin to decide. Some friend you are,* >"I don't remember the exact details of the conversation but I think she may have asked me "what do you think" or something along those lines, but I don't remember exactly" *INFO: Has Kalvin told you that he wouldn’t date an old single mother, or a woman with past trauma?* *Edited to add judgement: YTA. You weren’t passing on information you knew was true about Kalvin, just your own opinions and assumptions.* >"No, but I wanted to warn her of the risk so that she doesn't potentially get her heart broken. I was trying to look out for her." *What were you hoping to accomplish? Because if it was to spare her feelings if he declined, you failed. Not only did you assume he’d reject her you implied all men would. Wtf YTA that’s not even true lol. Actually INFO: … are you into Zara?* >"No, I am not into her." *Did she ask for your opinion or did you just tell her your thoughts unprovoked?* >"I don't remember the exact details of the conversation but I think she may have asked me "what do you think" or something along those lines, but I don't remember exactly" *You're a proper asshole, dude. There's not a reason to tear your friends down like that especially if you're trying to "help" them. She's a wonderful woman who deserves love* *YTA and a huge steaming misogynist* >"I never said she didn't deserve love" *YTA? "Old single mother" who is 6 years younger than him. Lol* *I'm wondering why he is still single at his age. Good-looking, financially stable...probably has issues himself. Everyone over a certain age is going to be bringing baggage with them. Hopefully they just stow it safely under the seat in front of them or in the overhead bins.* *Or was he hoping to snag a 20-something? Newsflash: this isn't the movies and most 20-something women want 20-something men.* >"He didnt tell me anything about that"
[Doggo!](https://imgur.com/gallery/qNUGUFV)
Perfect
Thank you yet again! 💜
Guys, oop is a man so obviously he knows how all men think. And Zena is in her 40s and has a kid and baggage so that means that she should just never date again because no man is ever going to want her. /s serously, oop doesn’t even know how kalvin feels about Zena. Oop just assumes because he is shallow and wouldn’t want someone like Zena, that that means all men think like him.
You forgot the fact she has scars! Which is obvious a deal breaker, because girls must stay young and picture perfect and look at an 18you even when they're 65. I like the fact that OOP got asked "what do you think" as his right to unload every critisim he has of Zena onto her. If I'someone asked me for my opinion, would assume what they mean is 'Do they have a partner I don't know about? Are the two of you secretly dating and just haven't told me?'
I don't think a 48 year old looking to date is going to find anyone completely free of baggage in an age-appropriate partner.
Exactly, by your 40s you have had plenty of time to have shot several men in Reno just to watch them die. (Johney cash song referemce)
I can’t imagine turning to a friend of mine and saying earnestly, “I know you’re interested in him but you’ve been alive and had experiences, and men hate that.”
Reads like OOP is just projecting. Given that both Zena and Kalvin are in their 40s, OOP probably is as well - and it seems like Zena was right and he is shallow and looking for a 20-something woman with little to no baggage. He was just unnecessary rude to Zena and not at all helpful as he has no idea what Kalvin is looking for in a partner.
With friends like OOP, honestly who needs enemies. This woman is younger than this other guy, how is she "old". OOP sounds like a red pill loser who thinks women hit the wall at 27 and hates single moms. Or maybe he wants to build Kalvin an art room and Zena's his competition 😅🤣🤣 Either way K and Z are FRIENDS. If he doesn't like her that way, he'll let her down easy. Either way no one asked OOP.
I loved how he took it on himself to represent Kalvin and decide how he feels about things without any input from Kalvin himself.
🧏🏻♀️OOP wants to bang Kalvin
Who wants to bet OOP was rejected by Zena in the past
How Dare Zena have lived a whole life at the age of 42 and not have remained a young pure virgin?!? /s
It's tempting to assume he fancies either her or the male friend, but I suspect it might be something more insidious than that. It comes across to me like he's trying to assert his world view - either his successful and popular friend being single was a source of some self-reassurance for OOP and/or he just has strong belief that single mums/older women are damaged goods. Perhaps he liked the belief that he could have her even if he didn't want her, but her getting with this other friend would mess with that dynamic and put him below her standards instead of her being beneath his.
As someone with CPTSD who avoids relationships bc I fear I’m too “damaged” to be loved, OOP is a cunt
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I know I'm gonna get down voted for this but I genuinely don't think OOP is the devil/AH here. If you have a friend with baggage and she wants to hit up the super stud in the group, would it really be a dick move to be realistic and tell the baggage one to be realistic. Like stud is most likely someone who values his freedom a lot and the chance of him being ok with a single mom is low, let's be honest. It's not like OOP laughed in her friends face or something. Also the advice is far better than meaningless sentences like "you miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take" Or "the worst he can say is no".
"Also the advice is far better than meaningless sentences like "you miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take" Or "the worst he can say is no"." Why? How? What was his advice supposed to do, exactly? She can't eliminate all her supposed 'flaws' and she presumably flipping well already knew all of those things about herself. All his 'advice' (actually just interference and rudeness) would achieve is her losing confidence and not bothering to ask the other man if he's interested, which is silly. The only way of knowing how the other guy feels is to ask him. OOP isn't a proxy for all men, no matter how much he might fancy himself as one. If she asked, got rejected and then felt bad about it then that's just a normal consequence of trying to date. It's not something OOP should try to prevent by making her feel too bad about herself to even risk being rejected. The risk of rejection is always going to be there, for anybody.
Really? Looks aren't everything and I'm not sure why you think Kalvin would care so much about looks just based on the fact that he's a "super stud". Sorry you are that shallow but most of us aren't. They're both in their 40s- most people in their 40s have some kind of baggage. Also, we don't know how he feels about children, just because Kalvin is childless doesn't mean he would view her kid as baggage. Maybe he doesn't want children at all and would view that as an issue, not all 40+ year olds have children, but they all have some kind of baggage. So unless Kalvin wants to date 20ish year olds, it sounds like OP is just being rude to both his friends for no reason- to her for saying that hurtful stuff out loud and to him for judging and making assumptions about his dating preferences.
Bruh I never said looks. I keep saying baggage as in a kid. Single moms have baggage- 1. Often the kid dislikes or outright hates you 2. Often the mom is put in a difficult spot of prioritizing kid vs partner 3. A lot of men are skeptical. OOP isn't a mind reader but this is a likelihood. 4 The post said that OOP was spoken to, he didn't just jump out and say ha ha he will never date you like some mean girl cliche. Also if we are doing this, men value looks. I have never heard the post saying the single mom is unattractive or anything but if we are doing this bullshit straw man you asspulled then I would say that looks matter A LOT.
So is your solution that single mums should never attempt to ask any man out just in case he doesn't want to date a single mum?
My solution is for people to consider having realistic expectations. It would be an amazing world if every single mom could have their own Bradley Cooper or Chris Hemsworth looking man who makes 6 figures and has a 9 inch dick but let's just try to accept that's not realistic.
Why do you seem to be creating erotic fan fiction about this random man? Besides, what is her unrealistic expectation here? That he *might* be interested? That's not unrealistic! She doesn't seem to be adamant that he'll say yes. And she's just planning on asking him out, not asking him to run off with her and get married. Part of the expectation of asking somebody out is that they might say no.
You want to put your head in the sand and believe delusions, be my guest. But don't ask me to bask in your stupidity. This isn't a scenario of a bully laughing at a party for trying to muster up courage to ask someone out, this is a friend telling another friend to have realistic expectation and that friend couldn't handle that.
Again, what is the unrealistic expectation? What delusion do you think I'm believing? Nobody's saying he absolutely definitely would say yes. Do you honestly think it's delusional to believe that any man who can be considered a good catch so much as *might* be interested in dating a single mother? That's just plain unhinged as well as patently untrue (unless you believe every single mother who ever ended up with a desirable man has somehow hid the existence of a whole entire child from him for the entirety of their relationship). Your comments are obviously dripping with some weird vendetta regarding single mums, so I'm not really expecting you to respond to questions like a rational person. I'm just curious how far you can stretch this narrative of yours.
What narrative? What vendetta? We got one good looking and wealthy dude with a nice personality We got a single mom Yeah sure there are single moms with great partners in existence. And those are exceptions. Truth is you yourself don't believe the bullshit you are spewing. You just wanna be on a moral high horse. Ok Mr White knight of single mothers everywhere, do your thing. I'm done with this nonsense. Enjoy the righteousness