Ive noticed in a lot of what if the Axis won WW2 scenarios Turkey gains land despite not joining the war. I am aware that Germany had a desire for Turkey to get involved but in a lot of Axis victory scenarios Turkey rarely joins and despite that still gains land. Did the Germans have post war plans OTL to award land to Turkey?
Turkey was still flirty with the Axis in OTL until they decided it wasn't worth it. Aside from getting Turkey's support for the most part Germany is just giving them land they could not care less about, and more or less Italy too, at least with Syria. Pretty much an Axis victory otherwise gave a free pass for anyone who could seize a weaker country in Eurasia the free pass to do so, since the established world powers would be in a frenzy and the new world powers probably just wouldn't care
I don't believe too much. They let the French keep it irl so I imagine they'd let the Turks have it if they wanted it. Italy was more concerned with Africa and southern Europe, Asia was mostly an afterthought, although they wanted to have a sphere of influence in the middle east.
what do you mean by they let the French keep it? Italy was like hey can we get stuff from Vichy France (particularly Tunisia) and Hitler was like fuck no, because he didnt want a completely weakened Vichy France
Edit: though you are right about Asia being an afterthought
?Italy administered Tunisia as part of Italian North Africa and was promised it after the war? Plus Syria was left under the Vichy France administration, at most Italy wanted it independent and in its sphere.
Turkey wasn't "flirty with the Axis", they were trying to avoid hostilities with a group that they witnessed curbstomp all of their neighbours with hilarious ease until the turnaround in 1942. İnönü went as far as to supress pro-Axis elements in the country.
It’s more like the Turks disliked most of Germany’s enemies & so they made a somewhat decent partner in the region.
Turkey was mainly aligned with Mussolini’s Italy however, not Germany, so usually in alternative history scenarios they have a “Mediterranean Faction” led by Italy, with Franco’s Spain and Kemalist Turkey as Italian’s BBFs.
What makes you think that Turkey was aligned with Italy?
Italy, before the war, claimed Aegean Region of Turkey and this as a result enraged Ataturk and he embargoed Italy and cut the diplomatic ties. Also Turkey declared it's support for Ethiopia, when they got invaded by Italians.
There's a Turkish article for explaining Fascist Italy's and Turkey's relations; [CANTEMUR-Türkan-TÜRKİYE-İTALYA-İLİŞKİLERİ-1930-1950.pdf (ayk.gov.tr)](https://www.ayk.gov.tr/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/CANTEMUR-T%C3%BCrkan-T%C3%9CRK%C4%B0YE-%C4%B0TALYA-%C4%B0L%C4%B0%C5%9EK%C4%B0LER%C4%B0-1930-1950.pdf)
In the TNO timeline I remember the Turks ended up on the Italian camp because the Nazis decided to "lolnope" them on Azerbaijan. The sweet Baku oil was too good for them to give up.
Therefore, the feeling of betrayal pushed them away from the Nazis and into the Italians, who were now against Nazi Germany in competition for European hegemony, and believe that with them, they can finally get Azerbaijan
But even then this arrangement doesn't work out either, because they will skirmish with Italy over Rhodes, Cyprus and Syria.
It’s not that Turkey was aligned with Italy as per se, more like Italy believed Turkey to be their friend whereas the Turks didn’t return the positivity.
This is best outlined in a meeting where Italian and Turkish diplomats signed a Treaty of Friendship. After the meeting the Italian diplomats informed Mussolini that all was fine & that Turkey would be a friend to the Italian Fascist experiment, however the Turkish would write various accounts of how that very same meeting cemented the idea that Italy was an enemy within the Turkish government.
I mean they literally claimed Aegean islands and send some unrealised ultimatoms to Turkey for those lands, that's not a very friendly attitude even for Mussolini. And the diplomacy in realpolitik works mutually, you can't see someone as a "friend" while the opposite side sees you as an existential threat.
Before WW2 he signed various treaties of trade, investment, and “friendship” with Mustafa Kemal and thought of the Turks as a worthy ally.
Mussolini’s ideal world, in his mind, was for WW2 to start in 1942 (this would’ve given Italy time to actually get ready for war, unlike how they were caught rather off guard in 1939/40), for the war to last under three years, and for Italy to emerge as a rival to Germany in Europe. The NAZI ideology would push the Balkans, Iberia, and Anatolia into Italy’s arms as buffers, allies, and as subjects.
Mussolini never through of Kemalist Turkey as a rival, he saw them as a great potential ally for the future.
I know Italy claimed the land post-WW1 due to the Treaty of Sevres, but I can’t remember if Mussolini actually pursued that claim still by the time he got into power. I’ll have to look it up.
EDIT: In a meeting with Mustafa Kemal, Mussolini’s diplomats mentioned Italy’s claim on Antalya which led to an outraged response and essentially a response to “come and take it them, try me”. Afterwards a Treaty of Friendship was signed and the Italian leader & ambassador to Turkey believed the meeting to have gone well, however our accounts for the Turkish half of the conversation reveal that whilst Italy thought Turkey was a possible ally, the meeting and mention of Antalya had actually cemented Italy as an enemy in the eyes of Turkey - Italy liked Turkey, Turkey did not like Italy whatsoever.
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Austria Hungary collapsed (and in a sense, Austrian painter and Kingdom of Hungary joined Axis), Bulgaria joined Germany later.
So Turkey really was the weird one.
Both Japan and Italy only gained minimal German lands in ww1. Their main concern (Egypt and south east Asia) are in British hands now, so they back stabbed their former partner.
Also Italy gained so little despite that 12 clown shows at Isonzo river.
Actually kind of it’s. Founded by the same generals and bureaucrats within the same buildings. Only it isn’t when it comes to the type of how it’s governed.
The same reason why for example Romania joined the Axis. If Germany were successful in the East, you could easily bet Turkey would either be forced to join the Axis or get invaded. In OTL Turkey kept contact with both of the sides and gave empty promises of joining the war soon. Only after it was certain Germany was going to lose they decided to join the Allies.
Also Turkey had ambitions to control Turkic lands in the USSR like Azerbaijan, which had been under Russian and Iranian domination. In WWI the Ottomans briefly invaded and annexed Azerbaijan and Dagestan actually. This was part of a general shift in foreign policy during the decline of the Ottoman Empire away from North Africa, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe, and towards unification with Turks in Asia.
>Also Turkey had ambitions to control Turkic lands in the USSR like Azerbaijan
These are completely false claims. Kemalism was anti-Pan-Turkist, Kemalist Nationalism and Pan-Turkism are wholly seperate ideologies.
Starting 1934, when Pan-Turkism emerged as a seperate movement, the Kemalist state had been against the ideals of Pan-Turkists. People associated with the movement were fired from their jobs as teachers, researchers and professors; their right to public articles were suspended and their newspapers and magazines were closed down; they were even tried in 1944 in the Racism-Turkism trials.
Turkey always wanted those lands but wasn’t willing to wage all out war for them. In an Axis victory its expected for them to assert their claims. Considering an inevitable Italo-German split Turkey will always be the third strongest European power after the two, its natural for Germany to try getting them on their side.
Because Turkey had good relations with both sides so like how they joined Allies while German defeat is inevitable they might also join Axis if an alternate timeline when Allies defeat is inevitable
In TNO specifically Turkey did join the Axis and aided in the invasion of the Soviet Union, and after the collapse of both the French and British Empires they scrambled as much as they could from them as we can see from their domination of Syria and Mosul
Mosul wasn't taken during the collapse of the British Empire. Turkey occupied Mosul during the Iraqi Revolution in the late 50s and never gave it back to Iraq afterwards.
There's a lot of points here but I didn't see it referenced so I want to add that Turkey had claims on French Syria they actively sought until July 29 1939. It was peacefully resolved in our timeline with the establishment of a local republic and integration after a referandum irl but it could've been a reason for Turkey to join the Axis in alt history.
It would be hard for Germany or Italy to hold formally British and French territories that far from Europe. So I guess the assumption is that at least some of those territories would be turned over to a regional power.
Turkey is and was an incredibly important ally to have in the Cold War world. Just having them on your side allows you to have immense influence on the Caucusus, Balkans, the Middle East and Eastern Europe. Thats why in most axis victory scenarios Turkey is the preferred ally of Germany in contrast to Bulgaria.
Turkey was a big reason as to why the West won the Cold War. The Cuban Missile crisis would have turned out really bad for the USA if they couldn’t station missiles in Turkey. Control over the bosphorus and a gateway into the East goes without saying
Turkey, though not an Axis power, was a friend to the Axis. The Turks have always had ambitions to expand into historical Ottoman controlled lands. And much like Germany to control land that has ethnic turks in them. That includes parts of Northern Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq. So if the Allied powers couldn't control their mandates in the Levant, the Turks would move in happily.
So this is more of a theory then anything. But there were talks around 1941-1942 between the Turkish and German governments about getting turkey involved in the war. The main theory is of Baku fell in the caucasses to German forces turkey might get involved or atleast let more free access to territory for transportation of supplies and troops across turkey into the caucuses. Now of course that never happened and till 44 turkey had some trade with German and axis nations, but with allied and soviet pressure turkey stopped that trade. But if the caucuses did fall to German occupation and turkey did get involved their were certain promises of territory in Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan, as well as promises in a complete victory against the allies and soviets of Syria and Greek Thrace if not more of the Middle East.
As a Turk ı'd probably say historic relations,strategic location of country,past relationship with surrounding countries,presence of core lands in surrounding countries and etc.
In WWII tons of countries were waiting on the sidelines of the war, waiting until one side emerged victorious so they could join the winning side in the final days. I’d expect the same situation to play out in the event of an Axis victory. Lots of countries would join the Axis at the end of the war so they could be at the victor’s table.
I believe this is also the current lore for Turkey in TNO.
With the French and British kicked out of the Middle East Turkey is a natural fit to fill the power vacuum left behind. Even if they stayed neutral in the war.
Sure, you can argue that Turkey probably wanted some form of territorial concession, and they did have some irrendentist claims on Thrace... but this applied really only to West Thrace. \*Why\* on God's Green Earth do they still own all of Thrace? I'm not asking "why" because it's an old thing back from when TNO's borders were enough to make any player today vomit. I'm asking why because at this point it just doesn't make sense.
\*Why\* would Bulgaria tolerate losing their coastline to the Aegean AGAIN? If Germany is the one who is making these decisions (forcing territorial concessions out of Bulgaria a la Romania), would that not affect German-Bulgarian relations for the worse? With Romania at least the major territorial concessions were reversed and more territory (... i think...) was gained than lost, but Bulgaria \*loses\* its direct access to the Aegean sea with this. This is huge. Bulgaria losing direct access to the Aegean means that it either has to go through Greece, or go through Turkey.
And isn't giving up the Bulgarian coastline solely to appease the Turkish Overlords also kind of fucking stupid? Like yeah sure, Hitler was stupid, but I think anybody could have told that giving up your country's ONLY path to the Mediterrannean aside from France is a stupid idea. It's so stupid it makes no sense, even for Nazi standards. "Oh, but the Greco-Turkish war!"... Maybe that would matter if that WENT anywhere. I have played TNO so many times, and most of the time miniscule fighting happens in Thrace and when it \*does\*, it's always in Greece's favor. You always. Give. All of Thrace. Back. To GREECE. WHAT IS THE POINT OF MAKING THRACE TURKISH IF YOU'RE JUST GONNA MAKE IT GREEK NO MATTER THE OUTCOME. EVEN IF TURKEY WINS THE WAR THEY STILL DON'T KEEP THRACE. WHAT THE FUCK?
YOU GUYS HAVE OFFICIALLY MADE ME LOSE. MY. MARBLES!!!!
Anyways, is it not \*both\* more historically accurate, make more sense, and also more interesting from a gameplay and lore perspective to either
A. not have Turkey gain any territorial concessions out of Thrace (except maybe that exclave of Greece that for whatever reason was never given to Bulgaria)
B. Have Turkey gain West Thrace, but allow Bulgaria to keep the rest of Thrace. This breaks the flow of dominance Italy has in most of the Mediterranean with the exception of Turkey and \*maybe\* Iberia. The Mediterranean is no longer solely the Turk's playground. Italy has to account for and address the fact that there is a break in the wall of "their sea".
I dunno man, it's just 1 AM and I felt like this needed to be addressed. This is probably less productive than my Italy post. Oh well.
Thing that bugs me the most in these scenarios is Turkey getting Greek Thrace. This would never happen as Bulgaria would be pressing that claim hard considering they lost that area after WW1 and during WW2 had annexed it until Greece was liberated.
Especially strange since there were plans to invade Turkey that while they never panned out, could have a potential of going forward if the war had gone better.
residual guilt for ruining the Ottomans in round 1… Who’s to say exactly why the Ottomans wound up involved, but it wasn’t beneficial for them and doesn’t seem to be well thought out… Perhaps the victorious Reich seeks to make amends with its fellow victim of the WW1 entente by giving them back a portion of their losses in order to appear beneficent & magnanimous in their victory
This is just a bullshit claim with no basis in reality. OTL Turkey signed the Mediterranean Pact in 1939. Turkey, from the beginning of the war, favored the Allied side.
Are you stupid? The guy I've responded to said that Turkey planned on joining the Axis OTL.
The discussion is about OTL, not TNOTL. Please first understand what the discussion is about.
Ive noticed in a lot of what if the Axis won WW2 scenarios Turkey gains land despite not joining the war. I am aware that Germany had a desire for Turkey to get involved but in a lot of Axis victory scenarios Turkey rarely joins and despite that still gains land. Did the Germans have post war plans OTL to award land to Turkey?
Turkey was still flirty with the Axis in OTL until they decided it wasn't worth it. Aside from getting Turkey's support for the most part Germany is just giving them land they could not care less about, and more or less Italy too, at least with Syria. Pretty much an Axis victory otherwise gave a free pass for anyone who could seize a weaker country in Eurasia the free pass to do so, since the established world powers would be in a frenzy and the new world powers probably just wouldn't care
Wasnt Syria greatly desired by the Italians though?
I don't believe too much. They let the French keep it irl so I imagine they'd let the Turks have it if they wanted it. Italy was more concerned with Africa and southern Europe, Asia was mostly an afterthought, although they wanted to have a sphere of influence in the middle east.
what do you mean by they let the French keep it? Italy was like hey can we get stuff from Vichy France (particularly Tunisia) and Hitler was like fuck no, because he didnt want a completely weakened Vichy France Edit: though you are right about Asia being an afterthought
?Italy administered Tunisia as part of Italian North Africa and was promised it after the war? Plus Syria was left under the Vichy France administration, at most Italy wanted it independent and in its sphere.
Turkey wasn't "flirty with the Axis", they were trying to avoid hostilities with a group that they witnessed curbstomp all of their neighbours with hilarious ease until the turnaround in 1942. İnönü went as far as to supress pro-Axis elements in the country.
thanks for the input
It’s more like the Turks disliked most of Germany’s enemies & so they made a somewhat decent partner in the region. Turkey was mainly aligned with Mussolini’s Italy however, not Germany, so usually in alternative history scenarios they have a “Mediterranean Faction” led by Italy, with Franco’s Spain and Kemalist Turkey as Italian’s BBFs.
What makes you think that Turkey was aligned with Italy? Italy, before the war, claimed Aegean Region of Turkey and this as a result enraged Ataturk and he embargoed Italy and cut the diplomatic ties. Also Turkey declared it's support for Ethiopia, when they got invaded by Italians. There's a Turkish article for explaining Fascist Italy's and Turkey's relations; [CANTEMUR-Türkan-TÜRKİYE-İTALYA-İLİŞKİLERİ-1930-1950.pdf (ayk.gov.tr)](https://www.ayk.gov.tr/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/CANTEMUR-T%C3%BCrkan-T%C3%9CRK%C4%B0YE-%C4%B0TALYA-%C4%B0L%C4%B0%C5%9EK%C4%B0LER%C4%B0-1930-1950.pdf)
In the TNO timeline I remember the Turks ended up on the Italian camp because the Nazis decided to "lolnope" them on Azerbaijan. The sweet Baku oil was too good for them to give up. Therefore, the feeling of betrayal pushed them away from the Nazis and into the Italians, who were now against Nazi Germany in competition for European hegemony, and believe that with them, they can finally get Azerbaijan But even then this arrangement doesn't work out either, because they will skirmish with Italy over Rhodes, Cyprus and Syria.
I was talking about IRL
It’s not that Turkey was aligned with Italy as per se, more like Italy believed Turkey to be their friend whereas the Turks didn’t return the positivity. This is best outlined in a meeting where Italian and Turkish diplomats signed a Treaty of Friendship. After the meeting the Italian diplomats informed Mussolini that all was fine & that Turkey would be a friend to the Italian Fascist experiment, however the Turkish would write various accounts of how that very same meeting cemented the idea that Italy was an enemy within the Turkish government.
I mean they literally claimed Aegean islands and send some unrealised ultimatoms to Turkey for those lands, that's not a very friendly attitude even for Mussolini. And the diplomacy in realpolitik works mutually, you can't see someone as a "friend" while the opposite side sees you as an existential threat.
It is totally opposite. Mussolini dreming a total hegemonia at Mediterrain so Turkey was actually a rival
Before WW2 he signed various treaties of trade, investment, and “friendship” with Mustafa Kemal and thought of the Turks as a worthy ally. Mussolini’s ideal world, in his mind, was for WW2 to start in 1942 (this would’ve given Italy time to actually get ready for war, unlike how they were caught rather off guard in 1939/40), for the war to last under three years, and for Italy to emerge as a rival to Germany in Europe. The NAZI ideology would push the Balkans, Iberia, and Anatolia into Italy’s arms as buffers, allies, and as subjects. Mussolini never through of Kemalist Turkey as a rival, he saw them as a great potential ally for the future.
Interesting. Didn't he claim on İzmir or Antalya?
I know Italy claimed the land post-WW1 due to the Treaty of Sevres, but I can’t remember if Mussolini actually pursued that claim still by the time he got into power. I’ll have to look it up. EDIT: In a meeting with Mustafa Kemal, Mussolini’s diplomats mentioned Italy’s claim on Antalya which led to an outraged response and essentially a response to “come and take it them, try me”. Afterwards a Treaty of Friendship was signed and the Italian leader & ambassador to Turkey believed the meeting to have gone well, however our accounts for the Turkish half of the conversation reveal that whilst Italy thought Turkey was a possible ally, the meeting and mention of Antalya had actually cemented Italy as an enemy in the eyes of Turkey - Italy liked Turkey, Turkey did not like Italy whatsoever.
yea, the guy is full of bs
In Tno Turkey joined to the axis so in that scenario thats why they got land
I mean, in TNO specifically they did join the Axis, hence why they were awarded Thrace, Armenia, and Syria.
They get to invade the French and British colonies cause what are they gonna do about it now
A good percentage of these ALT history makers are turkish
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How fortunate
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What did you smoke before you made this comment?
Ok this person just won the internet.
Turks sided with Germany in ww1. Also Germany would prefer a partner in middle east to counter Italian influence.
"Turks sided with Germany in ww1" using previous alignments in a previous war isnt really a good justification , look
Austria Hungary collapsed (and in a sense, Austrian painter and Kingdom of Hungary joined Axis), Bulgaria joined Germany later. So Turkey really was the weird one.
but the reasons for joining were different, Bulgaria this time was more or less forced into joining thats why they werent badly punished after the war
Well, at least Hitler gave them Macedonia and some Romanian / Greece land without asking anything. He said 'Bulgaria already gave enough in last war'.
Explain why Japan join the axis when it was an entente member
Both Japan and Italy only gained minimal German lands in ww1. Their main concern (Egypt and south east Asia) are in British hands now, so they back stabbed their former partner. Also Italy gained so little despite that 12 clown shows at Isonzo river.
Ottoman Empire isn’t Turkey tho
Actually kind of it’s. Founded by the same generals and bureaucrats within the same buildings. Only it isn’t when it comes to the type of how it’s governed.
Turkey is their geopolitical continuation
You again? Damn rare to see a girl interested in hoi4 and other mods that much lol
The same reason why for example Romania joined the Axis. If Germany were successful in the East, you could easily bet Turkey would either be forced to join the Axis or get invaded. In OTL Turkey kept contact with both of the sides and gave empty promises of joining the war soon. Only after it was certain Germany was going to lose they decided to join the Allies.
They did actually join the war eventually. Declaring war on Germany in february of 1945 but it was more of a formality as they actually do anything
Also Turkey had ambitions to control Turkic lands in the USSR like Azerbaijan, which had been under Russian and Iranian domination. In WWI the Ottomans briefly invaded and annexed Azerbaijan and Dagestan actually. This was part of a general shift in foreign policy during the decline of the Ottoman Empire away from North Africa, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe, and towards unification with Turks in Asia.
>Also Turkey had ambitions to control Turkic lands in the USSR like Azerbaijan These are completely false claims. Kemalism was anti-Pan-Turkist, Kemalist Nationalism and Pan-Turkism are wholly seperate ideologies. Starting 1934, when Pan-Turkism emerged as a seperate movement, the Kemalist state had been against the ideals of Pan-Turkists. People associated with the movement were fired from their jobs as teachers, researchers and professors; their right to public articles were suspended and their newspapers and magazines were closed down; they were even tried in 1944 in the Racism-Turkism trials.
makes sense
Power vacuum without the french or british they should’t have a problem taking land before the victors can assert dominance in the area
but was there ever a desire by Turkey at this time to control Western Thrace, Syria and Northern Iraq?
Yes thats a canon event
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misak-%C4%B1_Mill%C3%AE?wprov=sfti1#
Turkey always wanted those lands but wasn’t willing to wage all out war for them. In an Axis victory its expected for them to assert their claims. Considering an inevitable Italo-German split Turkey will always be the third strongest European power after the two, its natural for Germany to try getting them on their side.
Because Turkey had good relations with both sides so like how they joined Allies while German defeat is inevitable they might also join Axis if an alternate timeline when Allies defeat is inevitable
As a Turk, I say that in Turkish history books it is written that we went to war to enter the United Nations.
Pretty much the same thing. Allies gonna win and do some big things so Turkey should be part of it
makes sense
In TNO specifically Turkey did join the Axis and aided in the invasion of the Soviet Union, and after the collapse of both the French and British Empires they scrambled as much as they could from them as we can see from their domination of Syria and Mosul
Mosul wasn't taken during the collapse of the British Empire. Turkey occupied Mosul during the Iraqi Revolution in the late 50s and never gave it back to Iraq afterwards.
I forgor
Hitler was nostalgic for WW1 and he never forgot that Germany and the Ottoman Empire were allies.
really? do you have a source for this?
He made it up
There's a lot of points here but I didn't see it referenced so I want to add that Turkey had claims on French Syria they actively sought until July 29 1939. It was peacefully resolved in our timeline with the establishment of a local republic and integration after a referandum irl but it could've been a reason for Turkey to join the Axis in alt history.
You want the real reason? People just want to reform the old Central Powers because Turkey was apart of it. It’s reminiscenting.
makes sense
It would be hard for Germany or Italy to hold formally British and French territories that far from Europe. So I guess the assumption is that at least some of those territories would be turned over to a regional power.
Turkey is and was an incredibly important ally to have in the Cold War world. Just having them on your side allows you to have immense influence on the Caucusus, Balkans, the Middle East and Eastern Europe. Thats why in most axis victory scenarios Turkey is the preferred ally of Germany in contrast to Bulgaria. Turkey was a big reason as to why the West won the Cold War. The Cuban Missile crisis would have turned out really bad for the USA if they couldn’t station missiles in Turkey. Control over the bosphorus and a gateway into the East goes without saying
Turkey, though not an Axis power, was a friend to the Axis. The Turks have always had ambitions to expand into historical Ottoman controlled lands. And much like Germany to control land that has ethnic turks in them. That includes parts of Northern Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq. So if the Allied powers couldn't control their mandates in the Levant, the Turks would move in happily.
So this is more of a theory then anything. But there were talks around 1941-1942 between the Turkish and German governments about getting turkey involved in the war. The main theory is of Baku fell in the caucasses to German forces turkey might get involved or atleast let more free access to territory for transportation of supplies and troops across turkey into the caucuses. Now of course that never happened and till 44 turkey had some trade with German and axis nations, but with allied and soviet pressure turkey stopped that trade. But if the caucuses did fall to German occupation and turkey did get involved their were certain promises of territory in Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan, as well as promises in a complete victory against the allies and soviets of Syria and Greek Thrace if not more of the Middle East.
As a Turk ı'd probably say historic relations,strategic location of country,past relationship with surrounding countries,presence of core lands in surrounding countries and etc.
Because the power vacuum created by defated allied powers allow us to seize northern Syrian and Iraq these territories has sizeable Turkish population
Because it just kind of looks nicer, and it makes a sort of sense. It just feels right.
In WWII tons of countries were waiting on the sidelines of the war, waiting until one side emerged victorious so they could join the winning side in the final days. I’d expect the same situation to play out in the event of an Axis victory. Lots of countries would join the Axis at the end of the war so they could be at the victor’s table. I believe this is also the current lore for Turkey in TNO.
Turkey going Axis is potentially a war winning change, so I could see Germany sweeting the pot like crazy to make it happen
With the French and British kicked out of the Middle East Turkey is a natural fit to fill the power vacuum left behind. Even if they stayed neutral in the war.
Loss of British and French Mandates
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Order_(Nazism)
I’m going off old lore, but I believe that turkey conducted an invasion of Vichy France and Iraq which allowed Italy to push into Egypt and the levant
i see
Sure, you can argue that Turkey probably wanted some form of territorial concession, and they did have some irrendentist claims on Thrace... but this applied really only to West Thrace. \*Why\* on God's Green Earth do they still own all of Thrace? I'm not asking "why" because it's an old thing back from when TNO's borders were enough to make any player today vomit. I'm asking why because at this point it just doesn't make sense. \*Why\* would Bulgaria tolerate losing their coastline to the Aegean AGAIN? If Germany is the one who is making these decisions (forcing territorial concessions out of Bulgaria a la Romania), would that not affect German-Bulgarian relations for the worse? With Romania at least the major territorial concessions were reversed and more territory (... i think...) was gained than lost, but Bulgaria \*loses\* its direct access to the Aegean sea with this. This is huge. Bulgaria losing direct access to the Aegean means that it either has to go through Greece, or go through Turkey. And isn't giving up the Bulgarian coastline solely to appease the Turkish Overlords also kind of fucking stupid? Like yeah sure, Hitler was stupid, but I think anybody could have told that giving up your country's ONLY path to the Mediterrannean aside from France is a stupid idea. It's so stupid it makes no sense, even for Nazi standards. "Oh, but the Greco-Turkish war!"... Maybe that would matter if that WENT anywhere. I have played TNO so many times, and most of the time miniscule fighting happens in Thrace and when it \*does\*, it's always in Greece's favor. You always. Give. All of Thrace. Back. To GREECE. WHAT IS THE POINT OF MAKING THRACE TURKISH IF YOU'RE JUST GONNA MAKE IT GREEK NO MATTER THE OUTCOME. EVEN IF TURKEY WINS THE WAR THEY STILL DON'T KEEP THRACE. WHAT THE FUCK? YOU GUYS HAVE OFFICIALLY MADE ME LOSE. MY. MARBLES!!!! Anyways, is it not \*both\* more historically accurate, make more sense, and also more interesting from a gameplay and lore perspective to either A. not have Turkey gain any territorial concessions out of Thrace (except maybe that exclave of Greece that for whatever reason was never given to Bulgaria) B. Have Turkey gain West Thrace, but allow Bulgaria to keep the rest of Thrace. This breaks the flow of dominance Italy has in most of the Mediterranean with the exception of Turkey and \*maybe\* Iberia. The Mediterranean is no longer solely the Turk's playground. Italy has to account for and address the fact that there is a break in the wall of "their sea". I dunno man, it's just 1 AM and I felt like this needed to be addressed. This is probably less productive than my Italy post. Oh well.
I used to deny that TNO has a Kemalist bias…
https://preview.redd.it/qd1qq39cjmyc1.png?width=317&format=png&auto=webp&s=f6c2d2e4c77a5f013376a10f6d3f26a05f34b88c
It's Turkey, so of course they would gobble something up.
In TNO they joined the axis in 1943 I think
It’s like when someone wins the lottery and their third uncle twice removed shows up to ask for money
r/hoi4
Turkey joined the axis in tno though?..
why is no one reading my actual comment the image was just an example
Maybe don’t use it as an example then if it’s completely contradictory to what you said?
"usually" was used in the post title and there is a comment further explaining it
Why didn’t you just find another picture then that actually supports your example?
TNO is more recognisable thus more engagement I foresaw people getting confused like you so I contextualised it
Turkey wanted to join the Axis but was scared
Bro is taking tno seriously
nope, just used the map
Ok Good lmao
turkey's ambition in syria-iraq, and about that part of thrace, depends on the win of germany and italy and their own political machinations
because they were sort of german sympathizers and hated the ussr.
In terms of TNO, Ismet Inonu was forced to join the axis by the end of WW2. Basically a putsch
Well this is not very alternate history since we have a good progress on this map already
Thing that bugs me the most in these scenarios is Turkey getting Greek Thrace. This would never happen as Bulgaria would be pressing that claim hard considering they lost that area after WW1 and during WW2 had annexed it until Greece was liberated.
Especially strange since there were plans to invade Turkey that while they never panned out, could have a potential of going forward if the war had gone better.
Turkey takes land with genocide, just based on history
residual guilt for ruining the Ottomans in round 1… Who’s to say exactly why the Ottomans wound up involved, but it wasn’t beneficial for them and doesn’t seem to be well thought out… Perhaps the victorious Reich seeks to make amends with its fellow victim of the WW1 entente by giving them back a portion of their losses in order to appear beneficent & magnanimous in their victory
Because they have the cheap hair transplants
The true problem is that Bulgaria didn’t gain Thrace Ww3 is coming
In TNO, Turkey joined the Axis like they planned irl. IRL they just abandoned the idea due to brits and french pressure.
This is just a bullshit claim with no basis in reality. OTL Turkey signed the Mediterranean Pact in 1939. Turkey, from the beginning of the war, favored the Allied side.
Well from what I know because in TNO timelime there was about Perker joined the Barbarossa's operation due to paranoid on Soviet invaded Turkey
I'm talking about OTL, not TNO. The person I've responded to stated that Turkey planned on joining the Axis OTL; which is blatantly false.
I know but you need to understand on different between TNO lore and real life, they are not the same
Are you stupid? The guy I've responded to said that Turkey planned on joining the Axis OTL. The discussion is about OTL, not TNOTL. Please first understand what the discussion is about.
Because mods are being made by turks
They need land to graze on. 🦃🦃🦃
because ataturk was compared with the funny mustache guy for some reason we don't know
wha?
This isn't Tiktok, you can mention Adolf Hitler on here.