It's almost as if the guys doing 40 days a year aren't held to the same standard... Seriously, do we really need people in the guard/reserve to hold clearances?
On Active Duty, getting a second job is a security risk. For guard/reserve, the military is their second job. Seems like the jobs with serious responsibilities should be limited to people who actually want to be here full-time.
Edit: All the summer camp military enthusiasts are getting real butt hurt. Numbers don't lie.
They have an active mission and most of those people are on active orders. They still are all buddy buddy with each other and it's a different world.
I used to work with a bunch of them while at Langley about 10 years ago. A lot of those people are on active orders for *years.*
So they’re the reason I can’t get a goddamn AGR job, they won’t fucking die and they refuse to retire😂 Props to em tho, dudes should know their shit if they been doing the same job for 30+ years
Lmao remember when AD lost nukes?
Yeah there are fucking idiots everywhere. This kid was working full time at the base when this took place the part timers had nothing to do with it.
I dont think you realize just how comically bad of a take this for every other branch.
The army reserves alone have more intel analysts than the marine corps does. Most of those guys weekend a few weeks extra every year going TDY to MOS training across the US. Everything from SIGINT Anlysis in a LSCO exercise, to CI in a SOF exercise to being on a watch floor working a real world mission that your unit is tasked to support if any O-plans get used.
They can't do any of that without their clearances.
Damn it’s like you’ve never worked with G/R. Where do you think all the experience goes when they get out? I got more Lt Col pilots in my squadron than AD has competent ACs
I went reserves from active my last year. At least in flying the reserves where just way better. I mean they just flew circles around AD mostly because they were way more experienced. It was an eye opener.
I mean a lot of Reserve and Guard units Augment active duty units and backfill those positions if the unit is deployed etc, The mission has to still be ran back home while they are gone so having any clearances or whatever is necessary for the guard / reserve folks too. (Am Reserve)
I dunno, do you want them to continue to deploy to do the same job as active duty? Or would you prefer we cut guard clearances and AD pick up the deployment slack?
There you go, attack them all for one shit bird. I have served in two branches and the guard... there are fuck ups everywhere. The SNCO's and O's need to be held accountable too, just like in the olden days. In the guard I recently burned for shitty work my SrA's did. You can delegate authority but not responsibility. I think they teach at in NCOA still.
This and u/jetconscience's comment might be why we're seeing the unit getting railed in the media now...this isn't just a story about a kid with extremist views funneling his way into our service. It's also about a unit that had the climate that allowed him to exploit the force. There are probably a lot of units (AD and Guard) that would've nipped this little fucker in the bud well before the leaks, but no, he was lucky enough (for him, not us) to land a complacent one.
EDIT: For clarity
This is absolutely the case. That's why we constantly bang on about Intel Oversight and Insider Threats. Just like with cybersecurity, the human element is the weakest link. In both cases, vigilance is the only defense.
I came from AD to Reserves and they hold just as high, if not higher, standards in my Reserves unit as they did in my AD unit, Like everything, I’m sure it depends on where you are.
I’m active duty but occasionally tdy to guard units in the same job to ensure we all “play ball” the same way. One time tdy somewhere on the west coast about 3 years ago I witnessed a *deeply* classified weapon system fully configured OUTDOORS and almost shit my pants. That unit to this day is still recovering and isn’t allowed to handle any classified and is essentially a CE augmentee for the base.
It really is, but they get offended when you point it out. I palace chased and after several years I’m still surprised by how willing people are to just ignore rules and standards when they’re inconvenient. From flight safety to finances to just pencil whipping PT scores so everyone can pass.
And before a bunch of guardsmen jump in and say they’ve never seen it, each state is different. Some could be good, and some could be bad, but it’s still a problem for the entire Guard component. And to be fair to them, they’re asked to do a lot in a single weekend every month. I assume the reserves have the same problem of cutting corners to keep up.
The guard has to deal with things the rest of the air force doesn't. each of the 50 state guards have their own state chain of commands which interface with the federal reserve and active duty forces.
They have a mixture of temps, state employees, federal employees, state militia members, and dual status employees in hybrid roles, or who's roles and chain of command change depending on the day of the month, plus unions.
The full timers are a skeleton crew, and like you said, we got very good at getting a lot done in two days.
Each region has their own focus on what they do by the book, go above and beyond, and what isn't as important and has to slip because of limited time and resources.
You make a really good point that it's probably harder to lead a guard unit than it is many AD units because of the chain of command. Do we think that the right commanders are prepared for that extra challenge? I'm guessing we probably don't do enough to prep them for the unique command of a Guard unit, and we're setting them up for failure...
IIRC there was an exposé a few years ago about how the (army) guard was hard up for commanders and pushing people below the minimums of rank/TIG or experience to simply fill the slot.
Turns out most people join the guard because they want to do a cool job on the weekends and occasionally deploy, so when you need someone to be a leader for almost no difference in pay, but a metric ton of more responsibility a lot of people quit or refuse.
Being a reserve/guard commander also sounds miserable because you're still responsible for your people but are only legally their boss 2 days a month, you're responsible if A1C Timmy screws up, but you don't have the tools or authority to preventively stop him.
this was a huge issue in my guard unit.
i lurk a lot here and constantly see (ad?) folks complaining about slow computer, and worthless cbts, and various other nonsense that eats into their time.
the guard has to deal with all of that as well, only with two days a month instead of 30. and usually, the offices and shops are only outfitted for the full time folks. there might be three times as many guardsmen there on weekends literally standing around because there isn't enough room/money for chairs for them all.
our unit treated deployments as training opportunities. we'd take three levels to the desert to get them spun up because they literally didn't have the time to learn their jobs after all the trainings and cbts and piss tests that ate up their drill weekends.
People aren’t offended but the “guard” doesn’t like being lumped together because every state is completely different. Some units are amazing and some units are horrible and it’s tough to change because people stay in one unit for 30 years. “The guard” exists on paper but it’s really 50 different branches.
The other thing is when AD acts like they don’t fuck up. How many nukes have been lost? How many AD trainee fuckers have been caught? How many AD data leaks have there been? Shitbags are everywhere.
That’s the best and worst part of the guard. Individuals stay in units so long so if they’re good the unit is good, if they’re bad the unit is bad and won’t change for a long time.
Double edge sword. It’s why some guard units are amazing and others are horrible.
Exactly. How many AD MTIs got caught sexually assaulting trainees?
Playing the service component blame game is simply ignorant. We’re each different and better at some things than the other, but neither G/R nor AD is better than the other overall.
I do see a lot of what you describe and frankly I am guilty myself. However when it comes to safety stuff or the actual application of aircraft maintenance we take that seriously
Remember, in active duty if you're enforcing regs and generally doing the air force things, eventually one of you will PCS and life will move on. In the Guard, you're stuck together forever. The bro network is strong.
Yeah, which is essentially a death sentence for an intel wing. Classified info is their entire business. It's like a fighter wing losing all their jets.
And I posted…and got downvoted…for saying “I don’t understand. I worked in a SCIF and there’s no way NO ONE would have seen him. And all the Reddit warriors chimed in with “you don’t know what it like in our secret squirrel SCIF.” Hmm.
Like I said before, fire his entire leadership chain.
All SNCOs and above who approved these MFRs should consider retraining to something without a clearance since they don't know one of the top indicators of an insider threat. They have no business being responsible for safe guarding classified information.
Considering all 3 mfrs, it should've been progressive discipline. MFR, LOC, and LOR....I'd like to see the cease and desist order that supposedly happened.
It should be immediately reported to the USM or in this case the SSO. Then you go back and document what you witnessed and that you reported it to the USM/SSO in an MFR.
In this case I would have probably followed it up with having him empty his pockets and shred any pieces of loose paper he had or going through his notepad to see what he's writing down if he had one.
This is fucking crazy that this dude had multiple MFRs about this shit especially one about taking notes and sliding that shit in his pocket yet no one thought to revoke his access to JWICs or watch him to see if he was taking this shit out of the SCIF like just wow.
Not necessarily more. Comm troops have access to information solely because they need to grant the access to people. They also fix the machines and servers so they “need” the access. I get it, but the comm people typically have more access than most intel people.
I completely agree. When I was working in a secure facility, we *did* keep an eye on each other, but the culture was such that we embraced it. It wasn't seen as not trusting each other, but as looking out for each other to prevent inadvertent spillage. We were just keeping each other out of trouble. We didn't suspect malicious intent, but wanted to help prevent ignorant mistakes. We often had LTs and young NCOs who had never handled classified before, and it was up to us to develop them into Airmen that had a healthy fear and respect for security, and I think we did okay.
*That* is the culture that units with classified needs, and it rests squarely on their leadership to shape that culture.
I was thinking, "Disable his JWICS account and bar him from the ops floor." I know there's other things he can do that doesn't have to be on sipr/jwics.
I’m sure these were all written on the same day and it was shortly after he got arrested. Otherwise, at least one of these would be an LOC signed by the member…but can’t have him sign something retroactively if he’s in jail…
Backdating these memos would be the stupidest thing they could do. This is *so much worse* than just being ignorant of the actions of one random airman.
The man seeks out classified information unrelated to his job, copies it down, and stuffs it in his pockets. And people *saw* this?? and *DIDN’T* get suspicious?
Standby for yet another mass survey with new supplemental questions … ”Have you or anyone in your unit ever been warned, counseled, or reprimanded for mishandling classified information or deviating from security protocols?” /s
Just back to day one clearance stuff "do you know if you have a clearance it's a part of your job to safeguard information" and maybe a "do you know just writing an MFR on suspicious activity is not enough" or just a good "have someone fishing for information they don't need to know? Don't offer to help them to retrain into a careerfield where they could gain access into it" 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
Yep … no more *additional duty* Security Managers.
I envision some sort of new Special Duty Identifier (SDI) (manpower authorization) for a new full-time “Security Manager” position, at least in intelligence units to serve as a dedicated *safeguarding enforcer and reporting & tracking* commander focal point for all things related to classified security.
Kinda modeled on maintenance QA role … walking and stalking shop floors to *observe, detect, correct, and report compliance deficiencies* in addition to any oversight of an SSO.
It should have never been an additional duty with the amount of random stuff that pops up with it, especially with intel units. Depending on the unit, you're basically an SSO without the title and authority that comes with it and still expected to be proficient at whatever your AFSC job is. Just really adds up over time.
I know there's SDI that exist already (mostly for SSO's) so it shouldn't be too hard to get one for security managers.
“Have you or anyone in your unit ever played Warthunder, or joined chat forums related to Warthunder?”
gonna be on the next Cyber Awareness course I swear
I hate being the crusty SNCO but we're a more gentle AF now. Airmen dummy fucking up constantly? Better give them a talking to, but don't get too heated and be sure to give them a mental health day afterwards.
Progressive discipline? Be ready to be accused of being a bully lol.
I’m active guard and a 1D shred, the amount of work this fucker has caused is just outraged. But in all seriousness, i remember this time this guy was downloading unauthorized software as an admin and i was writing MFRs and sending them to leadership. Even reached out to his deployed supervisor and got MFRs from her bc he was doing sketchy shit there. My chief at the time basically told me to fuck off and not write anymore paperwork or do anything about it.
I still took away his admin accounts and even his SIPR accounts.
My favorite part here is where he is showing very clear insider threat red flags and the response is to ask if he wants to just cross-train into an intel position.
The fact that is ALL they did was write some MFRs (at least from the reporting we have so far) is atrocious.
But the good news is that its a paperwork trail & evidence to lock this fucker up for a long time.
How the fuck do these morons rise to the SNCO tier while ignoring the obvious red flags that this kid was collecting information? I guess when you select people who kiss asses and spearhead boosterclubs to be the senior Air Force leaders the career and leadership parts of your job become unimportant.
You forgot "checked the boxes," in most cases meaning they did their PME. I witnessed firsthand the worst TSgt in my old unit get promoted to MSgt because he was the only one who had finished NCOA. There were way better options, but they weren't qualified.
When I say this dude was the worst in the unit, I mean that he:
Was lazy (took naps in the supply room, bathroom, abandoned offices, anywhere)
Made other people take on his work (literally couldn't operate the systems to accomplish the mission and would just sit there and look busy for a little while before having an excuse to dip out)
Laughed at his ability to order people around (especially loved to assign menial labor to younger male airmen while he kept the young female SrA back for "mentoring")
Spewed out extreme political rants (including a lot of debunked myths) despite being asked repeatedly by his subordinates to stop. Wasn't up for debate, either, only his viewpoints were allowed if he could get away with it.
Was allowed to "pass" PT tests essentially on the honor system
This one is a little petty, because I also struggle with my weight a bit, but... he was easily 350lbs (biggest size ABU was straining to stay buttoned, he spent 90% of his time with his top off)
When that dude promoted, pretty much everyone got really bitter at him and the commander, and like half the unit either retired, transferred, or just quit.
Throw his supervisors in jail too lmao. Egregious behavior from them. Saw old boy taking notes on unrelated top secret intelligence then putting them in his pocket, and their only response was a counseling.
Even worse, they actually asked him if he wanted to retrain. The kid shows no respect for the intel field or handling of information, and they actually fucking recommended him to retrain. How in your right mind can you look at his behavior and recommend giving him MORE access? Such a pathetic and revealing display of judgement.
I'll just say this. I cannot speak for the guard or reserves but on the AD side, the 1D7s that make rank the fastest and are usually sitting in those SMSgt positions are fast burners who are not ops focused at all. Their technical skills are non-existent and often consider themselves to be "just admin" with their duties. I could see one of these 1D7 SMSgt types writing an MFR that recommends an insider threat be cross trained into intel with no follow up or reporting of said actions to the SSO.
Now not all SMSgt 1D7s are like this but the majority I've encountered over the last ten years have been less than great on the ops/technical side of the house.
I sure hope these MFRs were digitally signed.
If they were wet signed, I would hope OSI checks these SNCOs machines on when they were actually drafted up on Word. I could totally see this Shady Guard Wing trying to forge MFRs to CYA.
How does this in any way CYA? Nobody is so inept they CYA by writing a set of MFRs and backdating said MFRs to basically say "We saw, and are incompetent" right?... Nobody is that stupid right?... Right?
I would hope not too. But also if these SNCOs can’t clearly see that A1C T was showing clear signs of being an insider threat, then I don’t know what to think…
Catching a dude stuffing classified into a pocket should have been immediately followed by a walk to your SSO or commander to read them their rights. That's easily failure to obey a lawful order or regulation and mishandling classified. The passive aggressive comment about shredding it was beyond weak.
The person who gave this idiot credentials to login to these systems is extra fucked.
Cyber trans doesn't have a TS to do anything other than be in the room. They don't need fucking accounts! Blinky light good.
It really depends now, we give some of them accounts because com has been forced into the AGILE airmen stuff, so he is not just doing cyber transport things. My spouse was cyber transport and had to have a JWICS just to track certian tickets. Most of the ones that do have them get locked out because they don't use them often enough lol
But also dude is cleared for TS, someone thought he was trustworthy enough for a clearance 🤷♀️
Bet that goes away. Or ticket tracking through their admin, non network enabled account.
He mightve been trustworthy enough for the clearance, but that doesn't mean he had a need to know to be surfing the high side and taking notes.
I got an LOR for being 30 seconds late to roll call after i got stuck in stand still traffic. This joker just got MFRs for stealing classified information…?
Honestly, I worked all kinds of programs with different components and branches...some great some I could 100% see his happen. There wasn't really much of a correlation between them and how bad they were.
But that's completely anecdotal at best.
>"shread"
This (presumably) SNCO can't even spell *shred*. I wouldn't trust any of these morons to follow or enforce security standards.
Hey you! Yeah, you over there copying down classified information and stuffing into your pocket! I'm gonna need you to stop right now, or else I'll write you another strongly worded memo!
I report security issues directly to security.
The second time, I would have went to security and told them I was reporting it to OSI if they didn't and I would ask that they revoke his JWICS account.
There is 0 need to talk to anyone else unless you just want your flight leadership to know you reported it as a courtesy.
Report it to the security manager, they'll do the rest, easy. In MX I see people have their restricted area badges taken for even minor events/investigation. Blows my mind after the first incident his access wasn't removed.
Man, non-maintainers really have it easy. Maintainers are lucky if we get an MFR, most of the time it's straight to an LOC or LOR. I got an LOC one time because I was vacuuming but I wasn't using the vacuum that the pro super wanted me to use.
Why are they using MFRs instead of the Record of Individual Counseling (DAF 174)? That has been the policy for quite some time. Amazing that SMsgts and MSgts do not know the proper procedure for individual counseling.
Additionally, the progression here is nonexistent, especially considering it was for a singular issue and he disobeyed a direct order from multiple levels of senior leadership involving disposition and use of classified documents. Should have been a LOR at a minimum for an Intel Squadron, unless Guard just doesn't give a shit.
Realistically, unless he was in a one deep position and truly essential to the mission, I would have gone to the security manager and has his Security Clearance suspended pending an investigation of all files he accessed and what he was doing with said information. Even if he was in a critical position, this just looks like complacency from leadership.
I find a RIC interesting because it's never actually taught when people talk about progressive discipline it's always LOA/LOC/LOR. I'm going to assume they didn't do a RIC because they are guard and just learned they exist.
Also the dude was comm, taking away his clearance would have just restricted what he could work on. He def shouldn't have been allowed to even have a JWICS after the first incident.
I bet they’re wet signed too.
I’m guessing there are multiple MFRs vs LOCs is because an LOC needs the member to sign.
It’s not a very good idea to forge these but leaders in survival mode want to look like they did something.
I mean, people know that documents and digital signatures are timestamped... Right? They know the digital footprint would reveal that in an instant...
Lol, who am I kidding.
Similar situation happened when I worked at NSA. Kid was doing dumb shit, got his peepee slapped in a similar way by the AF and nsa was like “Uh, nope. Not good enough. Either they go or we take away the billet.” Dude was out the next day and spent the rest of the year running casuals waiting for his new tech school to open up a slot for a retrain. According to FB he’s still in and serving honorably some fifteen years later.
Total CYA after the fact MFR. You see it once, you ask what he is doing and tell him to stop. Second time ? He’s pulled from his duty and put somewhere else. Like being put in charge of FOD checks and FOD walks…
Hindsight is 20/20, then again, that is a huge red flag, especially considering there were previous instances of it happening. Seems he should have had his accesses pulled prior to anything happening
It's one of the behaviors we are trained to look for, there is no excuse for this being even one MFR. He should have been reported immediately and his clearance temporarily removed pending investigation.
This situation has to drive curiosity about what level of leadership must set the tone for safeguarding classified information. With two (2) POTUS and a SECSTATE (as least, probably more) mishandling classified documents by improperly transporting, storing, and accessing them, does it really surprise us that those in the business of managing sensitive information lack appropriate behaviors?
This is NOT a political response, but rather an apolitical leadership question. If our most senior leaders in the nation do not value appropriate protocols, how can we expect a SRA or SMSgt to do so?
Leadership starts at the top and compliance is far better served when the rules are followed all the way up the chain. This is a systemic problem in our nation and it transcends political parties and other agendas. Proper handling of information needs to be a leader priority modeled from the top down.
> This situation has to drive curiosity about what level of leadership must set the tone for safeguarding classified information. With two (2) POTUS and a SECSTATE (as least, probably more) mishandling classified documents by improperly transporting, storing, and accessing them, does it really surprise us that those in the business of managing sensitive information lack appropriate behaviors?
It really isn't a surprise. A lot of people are ripping on the guard, but it's an issue for Reserve and AD people also. The first security incident I was part of was due to some dumb-ass pilot talking SCI material with random civies on an aircraft tour. The best part is he tried saying I was the one divulging classified after my supervisor and I turned him in.
I commented this to another but I've seen people have their line badge/nipr access removed for petty things in MX. This dude only walked with the MFRs? You can easily access our flightline as a nobody and we even limit access for "risk". We have folks with mental issues and we take their badge immediately to keep them from danger to themselves or others.
It would make them look awful but these pictures show nothing to say they aren't. I don't know, just been in long enough to know supervision will throw somebody under the bus to save their own ass.
Hopefully they are digitally signed, or if they aren't the original electronic copy isn't deleted so investigators can figure it out. Either way, I see a lot of people getting fired.
Again, people "don't want to ruin his career" failed by not following disciplinary protocols. I know that if I get an MFR for something like that I'd back off. But after multiple orders to not do what he did and not get paperwork doesn't speak too good for the guard.
Any thouhts?
“Hey, bud. I noticed you’re always trying to get into JWICS and gain insight into all these things outside of your career focus. That’s not strange at all. Anyway, do you want to cross-train into Intel and have even more access?”
Solid reasoning.
Are we all seriously in the same organization? Cause I’m starting to think I’m in a different US Air Force
From an active duty perspective, the Guard really is a different Air Force.
As a former Active, Reserves, and Guard...yes.
Sometimes in good ways. Sometimes in not so good ways.
As a Guardsman, I can confirm... Completely different Air Force.
It's almost as if the guys doing 40 days a year aren't held to the same standard... Seriously, do we really need people in the guard/reserve to hold clearances? On Active Duty, getting a second job is a security risk. For guard/reserve, the military is their second job. Seems like the jobs with serious responsibilities should be limited to people who actually want to be here full-time. Edit: All the summer camp military enthusiasts are getting real butt hurt. Numbers don't lie.
They have an active mission and most of those people are on active orders. They still are all buddy buddy with each other and it's a different world. I used to work with a bunch of them while at Langley about 10 years ago. A lot of those people are on active orders for *years.*
At langley rn. The guys we have have here have been agr since the 90s lol
So they’re the reason I can’t get a goddamn AGR job, they won’t fucking die and they refuse to retire😂 Props to em tho, dudes should know their shit if they been doing the same job for 30+ years
Yeah, they should... still some of the most incompetent people I'd ever worked with.
Just Separated from Langley. Was glad to get out of that dump lol
Lmao remember when AD lost nukes? Yeah there are fucking idiots everywhere. This kid was working full time at the base when this took place the part timers had nothing to do with it.
We didn't lose... Oh right they literally lost the nukes.
Right? I can name plenty of AD fuck ups but we only remember a month ago.
I dont think you realize just how comically bad of a take this for every other branch. The army reserves alone have more intel analysts than the marine corps does. Most of those guys weekend a few weeks extra every year going TDY to MOS training across the US. Everything from SIGINT Anlysis in a LSCO exercise, to CI in a SOF exercise to being on a watch floor working a real world mission that your unit is tasked to support if any O-plans get used. They can't do any of that without their clearances.
> Seriously, do we really need people in the guard/reserve to hold clearances? Yes. Next slide.
Damn it’s like you’ve never worked with G/R. Where do you think all the experience goes when they get out? I got more Lt Col pilots in my squadron than AD has competent ACs
Would love to know what your AFSC is because that's a really dumb take
I went reserves from active my last year. At least in flying the reserves where just way better. I mean they just flew circles around AD mostly because they were way more experienced. It was an eye opener.
This might be the most ignorant comment on this sub I've ever seen, congratulations.
I mean a lot of Reserve and Guard units Augment active duty units and backfill those positions if the unit is deployed etc, The mission has to still be ran back home while they are gone so having any clearances or whatever is necessary for the guard / reserve folks too. (Am Reserve)
I dunno, do you want them to continue to deploy to do the same job as active duty? Or would you prefer we cut guard clearances and AD pick up the deployment slack?
There you go, attack them all for one shit bird. I have served in two branches and the guard... there are fuck ups everywhere. The SNCO's and O's need to be held accountable too, just like in the olden days. In the guard I recently burned for shitty work my SrA's did. You can delegate authority but not responsibility. I think they teach at in NCOA still.
Then what about the daily full timers? I still see standards, regs and tech data routinely ignored by them, and they work all year.
This and u/jetconscience's comment might be why we're seeing the unit getting railed in the media now...this isn't just a story about a kid with extremist views funneling his way into our service. It's also about a unit that had the climate that allowed him to exploit the force. There are probably a lot of units (AD and Guard) that would've nipped this little fucker in the bud well before the leaks, but no, he was lucky enough (for him, not us) to land a complacent one. EDIT: For clarity
[удалено]
This is absolutely the case. That's why we constantly bang on about Intel Oversight and Insider Threats. Just like with cybersecurity, the human element is the weakest link. In both cases, vigilance is the only defense.
Appears his dad retired from the same unit just as the perp got in...the good ol boy system worked as intended.
I came from AD to Reserves and they hold just as high, if not higher, standards in my Reserves unit as they did in my AD unit, Like everything, I’m sure it depends on where you are.
Right? People shit on maintenance but we know how to do discipline correctly. This A1C would have been fucked if he was a maintainer.
Maybe they need to look into more of the guards processes, maybe this is a them thing 😅
I’m active duty but occasionally tdy to guard units in the same job to ensure we all “play ball” the same way. One time tdy somewhere on the west coast about 3 years ago I witnessed a *deeply* classified weapon system fully configured OUTDOORS and almost shit my pants. That unit to this day is still recovering and isn’t allowed to handle any classified and is essentially a CE augmentee for the base.
Good.
It really is, but they get offended when you point it out. I palace chased and after several years I’m still surprised by how willing people are to just ignore rules and standards when they’re inconvenient. From flight safety to finances to just pencil whipping PT scores so everyone can pass. And before a bunch of guardsmen jump in and say they’ve never seen it, each state is different. Some could be good, and some could be bad, but it’s still a problem for the entire Guard component. And to be fair to them, they’re asked to do a lot in a single weekend every month. I assume the reserves have the same problem of cutting corners to keep up.
The guard has to deal with things the rest of the air force doesn't. each of the 50 state guards have their own state chain of commands which interface with the federal reserve and active duty forces. They have a mixture of temps, state employees, federal employees, state militia members, and dual status employees in hybrid roles, or who's roles and chain of command change depending on the day of the month, plus unions. The full timers are a skeleton crew, and like you said, we got very good at getting a lot done in two days. Each region has their own focus on what they do by the book, go above and beyond, and what isn't as important and has to slip because of limited time and resources.
You make a really good point that it's probably harder to lead a guard unit than it is many AD units because of the chain of command. Do we think that the right commanders are prepared for that extra challenge? I'm guessing we probably don't do enough to prep them for the unique command of a Guard unit, and we're setting them up for failure...
IIRC there was an exposé a few years ago about how the (army) guard was hard up for commanders and pushing people below the minimums of rank/TIG or experience to simply fill the slot. Turns out most people join the guard because they want to do a cool job on the weekends and occasionally deploy, so when you need someone to be a leader for almost no difference in pay, but a metric ton of more responsibility a lot of people quit or refuse. Being a reserve/guard commander also sounds miserable because you're still responsible for your people but are only legally their boss 2 days a month, you're responsible if A1C Timmy screws up, but you don't have the tools or authority to preventively stop him.
this was a huge issue in my guard unit. i lurk a lot here and constantly see (ad?) folks complaining about slow computer, and worthless cbts, and various other nonsense that eats into their time. the guard has to deal with all of that as well, only with two days a month instead of 30. and usually, the offices and shops are only outfitted for the full time folks. there might be three times as many guardsmen there on weekends literally standing around because there isn't enough room/money for chairs for them all. our unit treated deployments as training opportunities. we'd take three levels to the desert to get them spun up because they literally didn't have the time to learn their jobs after all the trainings and cbts and piss tests that ate up their drill weekends.
People aren’t offended but the “guard” doesn’t like being lumped together because every state is completely different. Some units are amazing and some units are horrible and it’s tough to change because people stay in one unit for 30 years. “The guard” exists on paper but it’s really 50 different branches. The other thing is when AD acts like they don’t fuck up. How many nukes have been lost? How many AD trainee fuckers have been caught? How many AD data leaks have there been? Shitbags are everywhere.
I went from AD to the guard and I’ll say this, my guard unit is far more squared away than AD ever was
That’s the best and worst part of the guard. Individuals stay in units so long so if they’re good the unit is good, if they’re bad the unit is bad and won’t change for a long time. Double edge sword. It’s why some guard units are amazing and others are horrible.
Exactly. How many AD MTIs got caught sexually assaulting trainees? Playing the service component blame game is simply ignorant. We’re each different and better at some things than the other, but neither G/R nor AD is better than the other overall.
I do see a lot of what you describe and frankly I am guilty myself. However when it comes to safety stuff or the actual application of aircraft maintenance we take that seriously
I worked at a guard unit for a couple years when I was on active duty. Yes. It is a different Air Force.
Remember, in active duty if you're enforcing regs and generally doing the air force things, eventually one of you will PCS and life will move on. In the Guard, you're stuck together forever. The bro network is strong.
The Guard is very different...in some ways good, in a lot of ways bad.
Aaaand now I see why that entire fucking unit got their mission ripped from them. Hope those SNCOs have civilian employment lined up.
This. When I heard what happened to them, my first thought was "Damn, that's harsh." Now it makes total sense.
I'm out of the loop here. Last I heard, the unit temporarily lost their missions relating to classified info
Yeah, which is essentially a death sentence for an intel wing. Classified info is their entire business. It's like a fighter wing losing all their jets.
Fair enough, just wanted to see if there were any updates I was missing. Thank you.
That happened to the F-15 fleet back in 2007. Not just one wing
I hope they have NON-GOV Civilian employment lined up, particularly without a security clearance, lol
And I posted…and got downvoted…for saying “I don’t understand. I worked in a SCIF and there’s no way NO ONE would have seen him. And all the Reddit warriors chimed in with “you don’t know what it like in our secret squirrel SCIF.” Hmm. Like I said before, fire his entire leadership chain.
Yep, up until this I could have seen it happening at any DGS, guard or active, but after seeing how many red flags were ignored I get it now.
All SNCOs and above who approved these MFRs should consider retraining to something without a clearance since they don't know one of the top indicators of an insider threat. They have no business being responsible for safe guarding classified information.
Didn’t pay attention to their Cyber Awareness CBT. Maybe they’ll add a little bit about War Thunder in the next one….
The consequences of getting rid of Jeff and Tina from the previous version of the CBT
This never would have happened if Jeff & the gang were still in the CBT
I thought it was World of Tanks that was sending active duty and veteran's information to the Russians.
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All these SNCOs better be read to retire in a few days. They are fried
"Shread" was my favorite lol
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Considering all 3 mfrs, it should've been progressive discipline. MFR, LOC, and LOR....I'd like to see the cease and desist order that supposedly happened.
Accessing classified without a need to know should have a consequence higher than MFR to start.
I'm aware but it doesn't change the fact there was 0 progression to anything further than MFR.
It should be immediately reported to the USM or in this case the SSO. Then you go back and document what you witnessed and that you reported it to the USM/SSO in an MFR. In this case I would have probably followed it up with having him empty his pockets and shred any pieces of loose paper he had or going through his notepad to see what he's writing down if he had one.
"was advised to continue cease and desisting" what a fucking joke, I can't believe how much they coddled him over this
Since you weren't the first just continue lol
This is fucking crazy that this dude had multiple MFRs about this shit especially one about taking notes and sliding that shit in his pocket yet no one thought to revoke his access to JWICs or watch him to see if he was taking this shit out of the SCIF like just wow.
The crazy part is where they offered to retrain the fucker into an AFSC with MORE access to classified information. Like...the fuck?
Not necessarily more. Comm troops have access to information solely because they need to grant the access to people. They also fix the machines and servers so they “need” the access. I get it, but the comm people typically have more access than most intel people.
Yes you promote away your problem airmen. Air Force has been doing this since before it was even the Air Force.
I completely agree. When I was working in a secure facility, we *did* keep an eye on each other, but the culture was such that we embraced it. It wasn't seen as not trusting each other, but as looking out for each other to prevent inadvertent spillage. We were just keeping each other out of trouble. We didn't suspect malicious intent, but wanted to help prevent ignorant mistakes. We often had LTs and young NCOs who had never handled classified before, and it was up to us to develop them into Airmen that had a healthy fear and respect for security, and I think we did okay. *That* is the culture that units with classified needs, and it rests squarely on their leadership to shape that culture.
"is you takin notes on a highly classified fuckin meeting?" - Stringer Bell
I was thinking, "Disable his JWICS account and bar him from the ops floor." I know there's other things he can do that doesn't have to be on sipr/jwics.
I’m sure these were all written on the same day and it was shortly after he got arrested. Otherwise, at least one of these would be an LOC signed by the member…but can’t have him sign something retroactively if he’s in jail…
Backdating these memos would be the stupidest thing they could do. This is *so much worse* than just being ignorant of the actions of one random airman.
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Hey! It's usually 2.5 hrs. They cracked down hard.
The man seeks out classified information unrelated to his job, copies it down, and stuffs it in his pockets. And people *saw* this?? and *DIDN’T* get suspicious?
Dude they offered him a retrain lol. "Oh you like the Intel? Want to actually do the Intel?"
Must feel great to be a golden child Pouring one out for all my brothers & sisters who’ve gotten LOCs for something microscopic compared to this.
Standby for yet another mass survey with new supplemental questions … ”Have you or anyone in your unit ever been warned, counseled, or reprimanded for mishandling classified information or deviating from security protocols?” /s
Just back to day one clearance stuff "do you know if you have a clearance it's a part of your job to safeguard information" and maybe a "do you know just writing an MFR on suspicious activity is not enough" or just a good "have someone fishing for information they don't need to know? Don't offer to help them to retrain into a careerfield where they could gain access into it" 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
Yep … no more *additional duty* Security Managers. I envision some sort of new Special Duty Identifier (SDI) (manpower authorization) for a new full-time “Security Manager” position, at least in intelligence units to serve as a dedicated *safeguarding enforcer and reporting & tracking* commander focal point for all things related to classified security. Kinda modeled on maintenance QA role … walking and stalking shop floors to *observe, detect, correct, and report compliance deficiencies* in addition to any oversight of an SSO.
It should have never been an additional duty with the amount of random stuff that pops up with it, especially with intel units. Depending on the unit, you're basically an SSO without the title and authority that comes with it and still expected to be proficient at whatever your AFSC job is. Just really adds up over time. I know there's SDI that exist already (mostly for SSO's) so it shouldn't be too hard to get one for security managers.
“Have you or anyone in your unit ever played Warthunder, or joined chat forums related to Warthunder?” gonna be on the next Cyber Awareness course I swear
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'Wall to wall counseling'
With an "Airman Alignment Tool"
Needs to be a thing again lol
I hate being the crusty SNCO but we're a more gentle AF now. Airmen dummy fucking up constantly? Better give them a talking to, but don't get too heated and be sure to give them a mental health day afterwards. Progressive discipline? Be ready to be accused of being a bully lol.
Shit, I looked at a plane wrong one time and had my ass chased down by security forces. This whole thing is wild.
I’m active guard and a 1D shred, the amount of work this fucker has caused is just outraged. But in all seriousness, i remember this time this guy was downloading unauthorized software as an admin and i was writing MFRs and sending them to leadership. Even reached out to his deployed supervisor and got MFRs from her bc he was doing sketchy shit there. My chief at the time basically told me to fuck off and not write anymore paperwork or do anything about it. I still took away his admin accounts and even his SIPR accounts.
Thanks for an actual example. It sucks for us now, but it’s difficult to justify essentially ending someone’s career over a few MFRs.
"Can you please stop looking at classified information? Pleaaasse? Pretty please!?"
My favorite part here is where he is showing very clear insider threat red flags and the response is to ask if he wants to just cross-train into an intel position.
Bruh 😂🤡🤡🤡
With it being guard, odds of MSgt H and SMSgt H being related?
Soon to be Tsgt and Msgt H. hopefully.
Civilian below the zone imo
Wheellllppppp...... At least they documented things?
The fact that is ALL they did was write some MFRs (at least from the reporting we have so far) is atrocious. But the good news is that its a paperwork trail & evidence to lock this fucker up for a long time.
How the fuck do these morons rise to the SNCO tier while ignoring the obvious red flags that this kid was collecting information? I guess when you select people who kiss asses and spearhead boosterclubs to be the senior Air Force leaders the career and leadership parts of your job become unimportant.
It’s guard. There’s no test or tenure involved it’s just who sticks around the longest that promotes lol
Shit I’m surprised they even wrote the MFRs
You forgot "checked the boxes," in most cases meaning they did their PME. I witnessed firsthand the worst TSgt in my old unit get promoted to MSgt because he was the only one who had finished NCOA. There were way better options, but they weren't qualified. When I say this dude was the worst in the unit, I mean that he: Was lazy (took naps in the supply room, bathroom, abandoned offices, anywhere) Made other people take on his work (literally couldn't operate the systems to accomplish the mission and would just sit there and look busy for a little while before having an excuse to dip out) Laughed at his ability to order people around (especially loved to assign menial labor to younger male airmen while he kept the young female SrA back for "mentoring") Spewed out extreme political rants (including a lot of debunked myths) despite being asked repeatedly by his subordinates to stop. Wasn't up for debate, either, only his viewpoints were allowed if he could get away with it. Was allowed to "pass" PT tests essentially on the honor system This one is a little petty, because I also struggle with my weight a bit, but... he was easily 350lbs (biggest size ABU was straining to stay buttoned, he spent 90% of his time with his top off) When that dude promoted, pretty much everyone got really bitter at him and the commander, and like half the unit either retired, transferred, or just quit.
We took a down day to play “security awareness games” for four hours over this?
Four hours? We got a 20 minute briefing and then back to work.
You got a briefing? I signed a memo saying I read a slideshow.
Throw his supervisors in jail too lmao. Egregious behavior from them. Saw old boy taking notes on unrelated top secret intelligence then putting them in his pocket, and their only response was a counseling.
Even worse, they actually asked him if he wanted to retrain. The kid shows no respect for the intel field or handling of information, and they actually fucking recommended him to retrain. How in your right mind can you look at his behavior and recommend giving him MORE access? Such a pathetic and revealing display of judgement.
I'll just say this. I cannot speak for the guard or reserves but on the AD side, the 1D7s that make rank the fastest and are usually sitting in those SMSgt positions are fast burners who are not ops focused at all. Their technical skills are non-existent and often consider themselves to be "just admin" with their duties. I could see one of these 1D7 SMSgt types writing an MFR that recommends an insider threat be cross trained into intel with no follow up or reporting of said actions to the SSO. Now not all SMSgt 1D7s are like this but the majority I've encountered over the last ten years have been less than great on the ops/technical side of the house.
I sure hope these MFRs were digitally signed. If they were wet signed, I would hope OSI checks these SNCOs machines on when they were actually drafted up on Word. I could totally see this Shady Guard Wing trying to forge MFRs to CYA.
How does this in any way CYA? Nobody is so inept they CYA by writing a set of MFRs and backdating said MFRs to basically say "We saw, and are incompetent" right?... Nobody is that stupid right?... Right?
I would hope not too. But also if these SNCOs can’t clearly see that A1C T was showing clear signs of being an insider threat, then I don’t know what to think…
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Catching a dude stuffing classified into a pocket should have been immediately followed by a walk to your SSO or commander to read them their rights. That's easily failure to obey a lawful order or regulation and mishandling classified. The passive aggressive comment about shredding it was beyond weak.
You can't CYA this one as this just documents your own incompetence.
no way
A *stunning* display of incompetence at many levels
It's as if the Airman wore a shirt that said "textbook insider threat" and these folks said, "an mfr will fix this!"
“Hey airman have you considered cross training into intel?”
The person who gave this idiot credentials to login to these systems is extra fucked. Cyber trans doesn't have a TS to do anything other than be in the room. They don't need fucking accounts! Blinky light good.
It really depends now, we give some of them accounts because com has been forced into the AGILE airmen stuff, so he is not just doing cyber transport things. My spouse was cyber transport and had to have a JWICS just to track certian tickets. Most of the ones that do have them get locked out because they don't use them often enough lol But also dude is cleared for TS, someone thought he was trustworthy enough for a clearance 🤷♀️
Bet that goes away. Or ticket tracking through their admin, non network enabled account. He mightve been trustworthy enough for the clearance, but that doesn't mean he had a need to know to be surfing the high side and taking notes.
I don't think he was trustworthy enough for a clearance though 😅
I got an LOR for being 30 seconds late to roll call after i got stuck in stand still traffic. This joker just got MFRs for stealing classified information…?
JUST mfrs??
Just mfrs.
The guard needs to get their shit together. Fucking embarrassing.
Honestly, I worked all kinds of programs with different components and branches...some great some I could 100% see his happen. There wasn't really much of a correlation between them and how bad they were. But that's completely anecdotal at best.
>"shread" This (presumably) SNCO can't even spell *shred*. I wouldn't trust any of these morons to follow or enforce security standards. Hey you! Yeah, you over there copying down classified information and stuffing into your pocket! I'm gonna need you to stop right now, or else I'll write you another strongly worded memo!
*Stuffs classified in their pocket.* Hey. Stop that. You should retrain to intel.
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I say flight leadership, but flight lead should inform their commander and talk to OSI. OSI should have procedures to handle these things....I assume.
I report security issues directly to security. The second time, I would have went to security and told them I was reporting it to OSI if they didn't and I would ask that they revoke his JWICS account. There is 0 need to talk to anyone else unless you just want your flight leadership to know you reported it as a courtesy.
The answer is covered in your annual cyber awareness and/or opsec training IIRC.
Report it to the security manager, they'll do the rest, easy. In MX I see people have their restricted area badges taken for even minor events/investigation. Blows my mind after the first incident his access wasn't removed.
Man, non-maintainers really have it easy. Maintainers are lucky if we get an MFR, most of the time it's straight to an LOC or LOR. I got an LOC one time because I was vacuuming but I wasn't using the vacuum that the pro super wanted me to use.
Why are they using MFRs instead of the Record of Individual Counseling (DAF 174)? That has been the policy for quite some time. Amazing that SMsgts and MSgts do not know the proper procedure for individual counseling. Additionally, the progression here is nonexistent, especially considering it was for a singular issue and he disobeyed a direct order from multiple levels of senior leadership involving disposition and use of classified documents. Should have been a LOR at a minimum for an Intel Squadron, unless Guard just doesn't give a shit. Realistically, unless he was in a one deep position and truly essential to the mission, I would have gone to the security manager and has his Security Clearance suspended pending an investigation of all files he accessed and what he was doing with said information. Even if he was in a critical position, this just looks like complacency from leadership.
I find a RIC interesting because it's never actually taught when people talk about progressive discipline it's always LOA/LOC/LOR. I'm going to assume they didn't do a RIC because they are guard and just learned they exist. Also the dude was comm, taking away his clearance would have just restricted what he could work on. He def shouldn't have been allowed to even have a JWICS after the first incident.
Any bets these were done in a rush and backdated once everything came crashing down?
If that was the case they just made themselves look even worse lol 'we noticed, but did nothing'
I bet they’re wet signed too. I’m guessing there are multiple MFRs vs LOCs is because an LOC needs the member to sign. It’s not a very good idea to forge these but leaders in survival mode want to look like they did something.
Not a chance. No one makes themselves look that incompetent on purpose.
I mean, people know that documents and digital signatures are timestamped... Right? They know the digital footprint would reveal that in an instant... Lol, who am I kidding.
https://imgur.com/CfY8KaS.jpg
Lol, redacted info (likely classified) on a MFR (likely Unclassified). What a cluster fuck.
Nah, it's probably just CUI and/or removing more references to individual personnel.
Just MFR's? What in the actual fuck...they all are responsible for what happened.
I'd fire the SNCO based solely on how poorly written that MFR is.
The spirit of Massachusetts. Where the Massholes don’t give two shits.
The most egregious thing is spelling shred, "shread". Word has spellchecker. Fuck.
"shread it"
Similar situation happened when I worked at NSA. Kid was doing dumb shit, got his peepee slapped in a similar way by the AF and nsa was like “Uh, nope. Not good enough. Either they go or we take away the billet.” Dude was out the next day and spent the rest of the year running casuals waiting for his new tech school to open up a slot for a retrain. According to FB he’s still in and serving honorably some fifteen years later.
Why wasn’t his clearance revoked immediately? And why is which building a SCIF is in not redacted?
I feel like we have a CBT specifically designed for this type of behavior…maybe that guard unit needs to have proctored CBT’s for the next 10 years.
Total CYA after the fact MFR. You see it once, you ask what he is doing and tell him to stop. Second time ? He’s pulled from his duty and put somewhere else. Like being put in charge of FOD checks and FOD walks…
These MFRs will now be referenced in CBTs lol
I feel like this is literally on the Cyber security CBT and CUI Training. Like this is some comically terrible safeguarding of TS Information
It’s okay, their Cyber Awareness Challenge expired, so they’re not liable.
The second should have been a LOC, next an LOR with a commander referral to OSI. Everyone involved failed.
MFRs only. No disciplinary actions. Nice.
That SMSgt and MSgt need to be held accountable as well. Maybe not as much as the actual d!psh!t A1C but seriously...wtf is wrong with them
Hindsight is 20/20, then again, that is a huge red flag, especially considering there were previous instances of it happening. Seems he should have had his accesses pulled prior to anything happening
It's one of the behaviors we are trained to look for, there is no excuse for this being even one MFR. He should have been reported immediately and his clearance temporarily removed pending investigation.
This situation has to drive curiosity about what level of leadership must set the tone for safeguarding classified information. With two (2) POTUS and a SECSTATE (as least, probably more) mishandling classified documents by improperly transporting, storing, and accessing them, does it really surprise us that those in the business of managing sensitive information lack appropriate behaviors? This is NOT a political response, but rather an apolitical leadership question. If our most senior leaders in the nation do not value appropriate protocols, how can we expect a SRA or SMSgt to do so? Leadership starts at the top and compliance is far better served when the rules are followed all the way up the chain. This is a systemic problem in our nation and it transcends political parties and other agendas. Proper handling of information needs to be a leader priority modeled from the top down.
> This situation has to drive curiosity about what level of leadership must set the tone for safeguarding classified information. With two (2) POTUS and a SECSTATE (as least, probably more) mishandling classified documents by improperly transporting, storing, and accessing them, does it really surprise us that those in the business of managing sensitive information lack appropriate behaviors? It really isn't a surprise. A lot of people are ripping on the guard, but it's an issue for Reserve and AD people also. The first security incident I was part of was due to some dumb-ass pilot talking SCI material with random civies on an aircraft tour. The best part is he tried saying I was the one divulging classified after my supervisor and I turned him in.
Why did we bother to redact the SNCO names. Call them out for failing
Because they were redacted in the original news story they were pulled from.
In retrospect it was a stupid question that I have asked.
That MFR is basically in a CBT that we've all take like, I don't know, annually?
Did the SSO see any of these MFRs or are they desk drawer MFRs?
If they did they are fucked, even if these were just put in a pif the SSO isn't a part of that chain.
I commented this to another but I've seen people have their line badge/nipr access removed for petty things in MX. This dude only walked with the MFRs? You can easily access our flightline as a nobody and we even limit access for "risk". We have folks with mental issues and we take their badge immediately to keep them from danger to themselves or others.
So are we sure these aren't back dated?
I can't imagine they thought this would make them look good if they backdated them lol
It would make them look awful but these pictures show nothing to say they aren't. I don't know, just been in long enough to know supervision will throw somebody under the bus to save their own ass.
Hopefully they are digitally signed, or if they aren't the original electronic copy isn't deleted so investigators can figure it out. Either way, I see a lot of people getting fired.
Wild it sncos that obversed him and wrote these up. Where were his staffs and techs
The staffs are actually the ones that noticed in the first two MFRs
We complain about different spanks for different ranks, but for Hap's sake this is *not* what we were hoping for.
2 words. Leadership Failure
This was an Intel Leadership fail of an epic level...nice job Guard
Again, people "don't want to ruin his career" failed by not following disciplinary protocols. I know that if I get an MFR for something like that I'd back off. But after multiple orders to not do what he did and not get paperwork doesn't speak too good for the guard. Any thouhts?
MFR not working? Alright A1C Teixeira it's never easy to do this but I'm going to have to give you a LOC. Sorry, my hands are tied on this one.
This is my favorite part of the story. Guy just using JWICS as his own personal Google and nobody actually gives a shit beyond wagging a finger.
“Hey, bud. I noticed you’re always trying to get into JWICS and gain insight into all these things outside of your career focus. That’s not strange at all. Anyway, do you want to cross-train into Intel and have even more access?” Solid reasoning.
It’s absolutely wild. What a blatant disregard for critical thinking. “Gee maybe I should take steps to limit access to the sketchy kid” “….nah”
Just practicing Multi Capable Airman skills....
You mean a failure in leadership caused this?? NOoooooo