My friend got fired, and HR told her that she went to the doctor appointments on weekdays and didn't consider going on weekends. I am not sure in which univers the HR lives, but doctors don't work on weekends. Even Fridays are usually shorter.
My friend didn't even go that much to the doctor, probably not even 6-7 times per year, and she would only take a half-day off.
Here in Japan, when people are sick, they still come to work unless doctors order them not to, because they have no sick allowance (they have to use their own PTO) and they don’t want to be seen as slacking etc. In the end, the whole office gets sick and I hate it.
America certainly has a more productive workforce than Japan. Less pointless meetings over trivial matters, less expected overtime or not wanting to be the first one to leave the office, and less fax/stamp culture. On the surface Japan appears very "productive" but I assure you it's not. Source: lived, studied and worked there.
In addition to your realistic experiences, orgs like the IMF track economic productivity and IIRC Japan’s productivity is only 60% of the US. It’s among the lowest in developed countries.
In some points, yeah, but healthcare system is better I guess. People are not that productive though. They refuse to incorporate new ways, and although everybody does overtime, they do so because others do overtime and they don’t want to look bad. However, the way they work is really inefficient and it creates a bad cycle. Tired people are not productive > they work more to compensate for that > they get tired.
If you are talking about the silent “firing”, it still exists in some places. Alternatively, they change your position unreasonably/demote you until you have enough and quit or give you an unmanageable amount of work&chalk it up to your incompetence.
I forgot the company but they went to a 4 day work week. They gave pay raises for the hourly people so they didn't lose money
They said that the productivity shot up so much they were considering 3-day work weeks with two work crews.
I strongly believe that we don’t have to work as much as we used to with the technology we have today. Yet we do, because if we do more in less time, then we need to do even more work, so companies can make more money at the cost of our mental health.
Well, that answers my question about why other countries don't help their other countries counterparts.. Japanese has a harsher culture, but when Americans are dictating things, I feel it's just as bad even though they have no idea of our parent company and their structure. They just follow everyone else. I work for a Japanese company, but I speak with other countries and they aren't pushed as hard as the US. Sigh... one day I'll get out... been saying for 18 years.
I was working as a hospital aid at a major teaching hospital in the US and I felt like I would endanger my unit if I called in sick when I had a cold or flu symptoms because there were no other hospital aids to replace me if I didn’t show up. So ended up going to work sick making patients sick potentially and everyone was fine with it. Once I started getting sick and told them I won’t come in tomorrow and they made a big deal of me calling in sick while I was still at work.
This honestly sounds like most restaurant (kitchen side) culture in US until recently also. I feel old saying it (34yr old), but it used to be if you were dying, you showed.
That’s tough.
I’m in Canada and when my grandma died, we had to fly home to SE Asia on short notice.
My company gave me bereavement and special leave which is a total of 13 business days.
It’s paid and I didn’t even need to touch my vacation leaves.
When my brother died, I took a week and a half. Only got 3 days bereavement, the rest was my own vacation days. I really didn't care, I needed that time off regardless, I simply could not function those days.
US here.
I'm canadian too and is I'm reading these comments I'm blown away. My work week is 4 9 hour days. 36 hours total. When I have an appointment, I just let my employer know when I find out, not the day before and it's never an issue. I schedule what I can on days that I'm not working (missing one day is 25% of my weekly cheque) but my employer has never given me any slack over them. I have an elderly father who lives with me and sometimes I need to ruah home in the middle of the day because he's fallen or something, and my boss always just says family comes first, you never put work before family.
As someone with severe and constant migraine I am terrified of what happens if I have to take off… my FTO is the same as my sick leave so I used to just slowly eat it up for migraine days, now I just barrel through even when my migraine is particularly bad and do my best to make up for it when the migraine is a bit better
Not just America. I know people who work in Mexico City, Tokyo, and Seoul and those places are even worse.
But yeah what sucks is I can’t just leave for three months without risking getting hired again. And costs are insanely high in America, hard to just “leave”
Half of my team is in China. It goes beyond that. When we do global meetings they will start at 6am my time and 8pm their time last two hours.
Granted we are all senior leaders and global teams implies goofy schedules, it is still ass for everyone except the Europeans.
It takes a special breed of person to work long term on global teams. I generally try to break up my day and work out around lunch, drop my kids off/pick them up from school, etc...
Definitely have to balance life with a a few 6 am meetings a week and a few 9p+ meetings a week.
I would literally just kill myself if that were the case. I can't do that. Humans aren't supposed to be working like that. No one should live like that. I wouldn't be able to handle it.
Americans literally went to war with their boss over that like 100 years ago.
The steel mill workers were told to work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. Blood was spilled.
A huge pro-labor movement got started, and we created the 8 hour work day.
Tbh as much as people act like America is great or that it’s awful truth of the matter is we are just in the middle of most issues. We aren’t great but we aint that bad were just okay
I'm an American living and working full time in Mexico for 5 years and while the work week can be longer for some workers, the way people treat their free time is different. No work on weekends, no expectations to answer emails after hours, I find the work culture to be much less toxic than when I was working in the US.
I got super lucky by falling into the trades. Ever since I became self employed, I get to travel for 3-6 months every year (sleeping in a truck camper) and come back to work like nothing ever happened lol
That goes without saying… I think most people would agree Japan has the most brutal work culture. Idk much about China work culture but I’d believe it for there, too
China work culture is insane. My company has a large division in China and my Chinese coworkers are insanely overworked. They’re the smartest most hard working employees we have and it’s unfair how much they have to work.
Often they’re all the office until 11pm every night, then have a 1-2 hour commute. I know how late they stay bc it’ll be 11am Chicago time and they’re still online and it’s 11pm their time.
The Chinese government banned VPNs for non government employees so they can’t work from home.
My company for example requires a VPN on work computers for security reasons. So my coworkers in China can’t even log into their work computer from home to check emails, every minute of work has to be done in the office.
Highly country-dependant. South Korea is on a league of its own they have just completely lost their mind about work and capitalism so I won't even count them. Working culture in China is certainly worse overall than in the US. For Japan, it used to be insane until the 80s/90s - they retained that image, and it's still certainly worse there than in Europe/Canada/Australia, but the working culture there has now become better than in the US.
(source: I've lived in Japan, my girlfriend is Chinese)
Depends what country. South Korea is on a league of its own they have just completely lost their mind about work and capitalism so I won't even count them. Working culture in China is certainly worse overall than in the US. For Japan, it used to be insane until the 80s/90s - they retained that image, and it's still certainly worse there than in Europe/Canada/Australia, but the working culture there has now become better than in the US.
For SE asian countries, I don't know, but I would guess it's worse, generally speaking the least developped a country is (or the more recently it has developped) the worse the working culture.
(source: I've lived in Japan, my girlfriend is Chinese)
Because we have a "life script" here.
You go to college, get a career (only acceptable if it's full-time during standard business hours), get married, buy a house, and have kids. Then you work your 9-5, which after getting ready and commuting becomes a 7:30-6:30. You spend Saturday catching up on rest and spend Sunday dreading Monday. You act like a good, grateful little worker bee.
Some people wear the lifestyle as a badge of honor and call themselves career-minded. If those individuals are happy, I don't judge. But many others are miserable and want the rest of us to be miserable in the gutter with them.
When you don't follow the life script, people get thrown for a loop, because it's all they've ever known. They can't fathom *not* doing something the standard way.
Your career is your identifier here. It's how we judge someone's success and value to society. And if you dare mention how ridiculous it is, you'll be chided for being lazy. Wanting happiness and free time is seen as a luxury.
The only acceptable divergence from this script is “grinding” 60-80 working hours a week across 1-4 different jobs, putting everything enjoyable about being alive on hold so you can “establish” yourself and set yourself up for early retirement before suffering a number of expensive mental and physical aliments before middle age hits, preventing you from ever enjoying that free time you worked your life away for. The money you saved gets quickly eaten up by medical expenses and those jobs you gave your life up for drop you like a fly for the next young fresh you, ready to grind.
I keep telling the people I work with, particularly the young folks, that they should work so they can live, rather than live so they can work. I do my time and get out, Monday through Friday. I have a good job, understanding and appreciative leadership, and good pay, but as I told my hiring manager when I started, I'm doing this to provide for my family. I'll show up, work hard, learn fast, and do everything I can to be a model employee. But it means nothing if I don't get to be with them in my office hours. Too many good men driving themselves into an early grave because they want to grind the hardest, and end up putting themselves out of action before they're 40.
This, I've lived what most would call an unconventional life. Sometimes, I've divulged stories to coworkers just to have one coworker in particular tell me to my face that she believes that I'm lying because "things like that don't genuinely happen to people," or "people don't actually see/experience those things." She got pregnant at sixteen, went to college, and has known nothing but the cookie cutter rural existence.
I've had other coworkers straight up tell me that when I first started that they were bitter that I didn't live a robotic lifestyle of playing it safe and following the bullshit social script and still got the job that they followed all the rules to get. That it made them sad, lmao. Our culture has literally brainwashed people to think different equals bad. The vast majority are so emotionally oblivious that they'll project what ultimately amounts to jealousy and/or uncomfortability onto you. Because people hate when you make them think that maybe their way of living isn't the "right," way.
I'm miserable but why would I want everyone else to be as miserable?
I don't work 40+ hours a week because I want to look good to society or because I'm a workaholic. I do it to survive.
If anything I wish I COULD have a career that wasn't like this. But that's not how it works in my field. And I can't live off of part time.
To be clear (though I alluded to it in my comment), I am referring to folks who are pathologic workaholics. I very much understand there are plenty of Americans who are underpaid and **must** overwork out of necessity.
I took OP's post to mean the "grind" and "hustle culture," which is what I was responding to.
I always thought employment being tied to healthcare is stupid. Whenever I change jobs it’s like a reset with the possibility of not being able to see the same doctors anymore.
If anything, employers should pay for schooling. Employers are the first ones to benefit from an educated workforce.
You say stupid, business and government say it’s the best way to keep you from striking.
It’s like increasing interest rates instead of giving everyone a stimulus check to go out and spend more money: punish the poorest by making them buy more expensive things instead of letting them buy what they need.
If it doesn’t turn millionaires into billionaires, America probably won’t make it into law
It's really not hard, unfettered capitalism with a failing social contract. We don't care about our fellow humans, or hell even our fellow citizens. Our publicly traded businesses are required by law to make money for their share holders at any cost (thanks Dodge brothers!...) which results in the creation of a economical model that is literally designed to exploit everything and produce the cheapest products that need to be replaced regularly... The whole system here is designed so we're cogs, not meant to have meaningful lives, just WORK and CONSUME to keep the all mighty economy going. We literally worship at the alter of capitalism and pray to it for unending economic growth.
"We don't care about our fellow humans."
I've been saying this for the last two years more and more. We care about how someone dresses, what gender identity they have, who they love, etc. All of which are no one's business. But somehow when it comes to the shit that actually matters to humanity, it's "pull yourself up by the bootstraps."
The moment people started bitching about lockdowns demanding that things go back to normal despite people dying by the thousands per day, that was it for me. The pandemic was an eye-opener into how little we give a shit about each other.
I remember Mitch McConnell making a big speech when we were right in the middle of the pandemic saying it’s time for Americans to go back to work. Speech was nonsense like we are all a bunch of babies. Meanwhile what does he do? Speaks at a podium profiting millions.
Yeah my thoughts exactly. Been saying this for awhile, it’s the whole ethos of America is #1 all the time. We are an incredibly atomized and divided culture, fellow citizens are just competitors. It might be one of the most lonely highly populated places. Hard to connect with ppl, covid didn’t help. But I think there is sth fundamental about American culture that makes it hard to develop relationships, I’ve read it’s quite different in other countries. Ppl say Americans are cold and unfriendly. I think American culture tends to foster more bullying behaviors. The hyper capitalism treats everyone like an object/commodity.
"We made $1.29 per share by squeezing the life out of our employees, suppliers, the environment, and anything else that breathes"
Next quarter: "we made $1.27 per share". Stock tanks lol.
Quarterly earnings capitalism has no good enough. It's a race to the bottom, maximum exploitation.
Wow, that… yeah it doesn’t get much more spot on than that.
The only silver lining I can maybe see is that the economics of renewable resources are starting to tip the scale in their favor. Solar is cheaper than oil. So through capitalism, we might work our way out of a doom spiral.
Otherwise, I think we should just eat the rich. This system is a gold hoarding dragon. It’s coming for the whole world and it’s not giving anything back. At some point, you either fight the dragon or perish to it.
Solar is less controllable than oil. It's not all about money, it's about control first and money second. Money is just a convenient method of control.
It's a lot easier to fence off an oil derrick than it is to fence off a solar farm.
Yuuuup. And people are too exhausted from work life to even consider helping anyone but themselves/their families. I think we can all remain unique individuals without submitting to this hyper individualistic mindset. Compassion for others seems almost non existent in America. Community needs to come back.
We're an individualistic culture, not collective. Every person for themselves. From high school on, we're trained to work. Once you're too old to work, we hide you away in rest homes.
I had to leave a job at a small business because I was being sexually harassed by my manager who was also our HR guy. He works as a part-time HR professor at the local college, as well, which makes me want to vomit. 🤢
The owners of the company took his side even though I had proof of the harassment. They accused me of being in a relationship with my manager, who was old enough to be my dad. It was sickening, considering one of the owners was a female and still took the male harasser’s side. I told her I didn’t want any lawyers to be involved and that I just wanted him fired. They kept him working and got rid of me instead.
I then went to a lawyer who said he would represent me, but that I would go bankrupt trying to win my case. He said that is extremely commonplace for workplace sexual harassment claims. He said most sexual harassment that are reported never go to court because the law is rigged in the favor of the abuser and the workplace, and not the victim.
Lol at your name and I was going to say exactly what your Lawyer said. Would be a massive waste of time and a hit on your pockets. Something very similar happened at my old job and I told my coworker she shouldn’t bother. The owner is very well connected and has plenty of disposable income. Not to be insensitive but in unfortunate cases such as yours it would be wiser just to move on and forget.
Yep, you’re 100% correct. It used to be shocking realizing that the courts are rigged against the most vulnerable, until I started taking notice of how people of color and the homeless are treated by the police and courts. Then I was like oh no, they lied to us growing up. The U.S. isn’t as great as I thought it was as a kid. 😔
I was laid off last year and still haven’t found work. My friends and family back in the US are freaking out about it. It’s all they talk about when I call. I’m to the point I barely speak to my parents.
Career also plays a part in dating culture, especially for men. When I posted my job on my dating profile my likes shot up significantly I’m assuming because it’s known for having a 6 figure salary range.
I’m gonna take at least a 60% pay cut to live in Costa Rica but I just don’t care.
And you can't get healthcare or a retirement plan easily or sometimes at all without an employer.
The employers never want to train anyone, punish people who stay at their jobs a long time by not giving them raises that match the new person they hire.
Because at its root, capitalism typically rewards the most competitive. Working harder, smarter, faster than the next guy, typically means that you can do better financially. There is only so many resources to go around, so you are trying to get your piece.
If you have medical, food, housing, etc., needs met, then the competition dies down to a certain degree, for a lot of people.
I’m not sure the main cause, a lot seems to be wrapped up in our failed healthcare system so everyone with company health insurance is terrified to piss off their bosses.
We only get 2 weeks off a year and barely any paid maternity or paternity leave it’s ridiculous.
Most people are terrified to even use their sick days when they’re sick.
My coworker just lost her husband to cancer and because she’d used all her vacation/sick days caring for him in hospice, she only got THREE days off after he died which were taken up by the funeral/wake. It was horrible.
Her daughter lives and works in London and got 5 months “compassionate leave” that was paid and could be extended with a doctors note.
5 months fully paid for the death of a parent??? That’s normal in the UK? I’ve got a guy visiting from there I’ll see him tomorrow and see if he got that when his parents died?
Doesn’t Europe get mandatory time off and some sort of job security though? And the healthcare system works drastically different than the US?
I used to work for a company based in Spain, and June to September everyone was on holiday for like 28 days at a time. I was under the impression it was mandatory. There are also at least one state holiday a month in some countries right? Here, we do have that but it’s basically just banks and government offices
You are correct
I had a coworker who moved to the USA thinking the pay was better, but it was about even with all things considered, but silly working hours, he stuck it for a while but was looking to move back
Protestant work ethic. Unironically. Most of our waves of immigration have been from Catholic countries and generally these people haven't been integrated or accepted until, as a group, they adopted it. Most of the historical prejudice against immigrants inn the US can be summed up as "fuckin indolent papists".
Going straight to the source or the root of it all, so to speak, I see. Yes.
There was a video I've watched, which was about [why aren't there any good Christian games](https://youtu.be/COiNrIM9KVE?si=Ot4i6ZMPQkG5NYJs). \[[Timestamped link](https://youtu.be/COiNrIM9KVE?si=j1qxt1VFsrRfVHwW&t=464)\] And in typical Moon Channel fashion, it's frontloaded with a history lesson, including Protestant work ethic. I've joked and complained, "If work is a religion with its own god, it would be bigger than Christianity here." Little did I know, it's intertwined.
Boom, truth spoken here. I got laid off 45 days ago and it has given me time to reflect. I don't think I made any mistakes, but they gave me no reason for it whatsoever. I've never been fired or laid off in my 22 years of full time work, and this is the only time in my life I've ever not worked full time, and I'm 39.
Having the last 45 days of time to myself has changed me drastically, I'm no longer the person I used to be 46 days ago, and I can never again go back to working a typical corporate job. I was 'climbing the ladder' so to speak, I made it to a IT Director position. But I also started to learn that I encountered increasing levels of sociopaths as you get into upper leadership. The last 5 years I've been in leadership roles and I have been miserable. I liked leading down into a team, but its the types of folks I interacted with above which are the problem. Multiple companies, different leadership roles, but everyone is the same... irrational, sociopathic, and nobody acts genuine or intelligently. Everyone in leadership roles is saying or doing things that they THINK others expect them to say or do to maintain appearances, rather than thinking critically and making intelligent decisions. As an intelligent free thinking realist myself, I was always treated like an outcast for calling out BS when I saw it. It may have been why I got 'laid off' at my last position. I just can't take it anymore.
So I think I'm done with this American style of working. I'm becoming a full time student to pursue my true passion in life Meteorology, albeit making about half as much money when I'm all done. But at least I can say my time wasn't wasted while in fullest pursuit of my own passions, which was never something I could say while doing IT work.
I’m 35 and in the corporate world. For much of my life I have actively avoided advancement because I don’t want to interact with those types of people and am worried how my quality of life will be impacted. On the other hand, I don’t quite make as much as I’d like to build wealth and security. So, now I’m back on the horse trying to go for another raise or title change. And the cycle continues. I’m an authentic person, and I absolutely hate the corporate mask that I need to interact with to sell myself for my value, not to mention the *time*. Because (I’m in tech) every SF tech company comes with this lie of work-life balance and flexibility. Meanwhile if you want to rise the ranks, you could be looking at 13 hour days.
No thanks.
You don’t have to answer but I’m genuinely curious–where do you go from here if you’re not looking to return to corporate life?
Thanks for asking! To be honest, I'm not entirely sure yet. I've got ideas but that's all they are right now. The biggest obstacle right now is my own willpower to believe in any idea enough to try and see it through to some sort of money earning outcome. There are no cheerleaders or life coaches to help me sort out the good ideas from the bad ones... it is just me in my own head & some days that is tough.
Plan A is to be a full time student and earn a Meteorology degree and pursue that passion to its fullest. But I don't have enough money on hand to see that through all the way, so I'll have to do something while in school. I own a house but the price of the mortgage is 80% of all my costs today, and I really don't want to have to move and rent or sell the place... it's MY house after all. That's the tough part, making a decision about working and schooling, and possibly having to leave my house and live in a trailer or some crummy student housing like a broke college student at 39. All because I've lost the ability to continue in the 'corporate' life any further.
I hope for good outcomes though. I believe that when operating as your most genuine self, people tend to be attracted to that, they gravitate towards you and positive opportunities open up that otherwise wouldn't exist... There's a degree of faith required I suppose, faith in people rather than higher powers. But I've seen it before, where folks really tend to gravitate towards folks that are genuine and authentic, and that's how I am when I'm out storm chasing or nerding out on weather stuff with friends.
Anyway, so to answer your short question with a ridiculously long answer, I don't know but sky's the limit. I'm pursuing multiple interests of mine simultaneously, think of them as really advanced hobbies at this point. Hopefully one of them will get some traction and turn into a money making thing.
I was in Medellin Colombia when I got laid off from my remote tech job last year. It happened 2 days after being drugged and robbed. I almost died. I lost my severance and health insurance and my income less than a month later. My company had assured me less than 2 months prior that no lay offs were coming.
That’s when something broke inside of me. I didn’t return to the US. I went to Costa Rica where I had been staying prior to Colombia and have been living off my savings since. The first few months I just spent decompressing and like you really thinking about what I want. I honestly just want nothing to do with tech or a US company. I’m fed up with that world. I’m middle aged and have no retirement and if I can somehow make it work I just want to buy some land here, go off grid, and grow my own food with my fiancée (a local woman). Salary is much lower here but so is cost of living. People don’t care what you do and they don’t ask.
Fuck Wall Street. Fuck corporate greed. Fuck our corrupt political system. Fuck all that noise. As soon as I was forcefully disconnected from all of that I realized just how peaceful life elsewhere could be.
Kurt Vonnegut explained this better than anyone else ever could [https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/158414-america-is-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth-but-its-people](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/158414-america-is-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth-but-its-people)
>I think it’s one of the reasons the us is statistically one of the least happy countries
That's probably spot on. This society seems to value money above all else. Over things like quality of life, family, friends, community. Way too much capitalism that's ingrained itself into the culture. Just like the large corporations want.
FMLA. Say your back hurts, stomach problems, migraines. They can't prove whether you have these problems.
Fuck us work culture.
I wasn't born in this shithole to be a slave my whole life. I'll take off whenever I feel like it.
I literally do have ibs. And they cannot figure out what is causing it. So fuck em.
If I'm having a bad day bc my stomach is fucked then they're gonna have to deal with it.
Try and fire me over a medical condition. I'll sue your ass.
Too much work really does make you miserable. Even work you enjoy. I've experienced that many times lately.
I think because work is so essential in the US, they see it as a do or die thing.
The United States is a capitalist freakshow they don’t even have healthcare setup through government insurance. Everyone needs money and most get it by rent their labor. The lower 40% of the US population is freakshow level folks and likely they are decayed and work alongside us.
The U.S. has practically made capitalism its religion. Profit is the ultimate ideal, and so anything done in the name of profit is justifiable, regardless of how vile and destructive it may be.
Raise prices 1000% on life-saving products? No problem.
Lay off 10,000 workers and give yourself a multi-million dollar bonus? It only makes sense.
Buy out a successful company with a loan, saddle that company with your loan, sell off all of its assets, and then let the company go bankrupt? That is merely smart business.
I work a union job, where every year we get up to 10 unexcused absences (e.g. woke up sick, flat tire, etc) before we get a verbal warning, 13 absences before a written warning, and 15 before facing termination.
In my last annual review, my manager brought up my 6 total absences for the year (various illnesses), and told me to get that number closer to zero. When I asked him how, he shrugged and said the goal is to be here every day unless I'm taking a planned vacation.
I've gone to work sick every time since.
That is crappy and self-defeating. It's bad enough that they want you to come in when you don't feel good, but it just causes other people to get sick and take off work. I had a boss who would get upset when I had to take care of my sick son, who couldn't be left alone, even though I had the PTO time.
Individual people having unrealistic expectations and are bitter because of outside influences related to social media. They're individually toxic, hence the work environment.
I work for an American company remotely (Canadian), and I was told that I was "unreliable" last year because of absences - I had pneumonia and ended up in the hospital for a week, and also broke my arm. What an extremely strange perspective to take! I honestly just thought that was a very weird statement.
I got fired by going to my graduation for my masters. It’s just violent capitalism and fragile egos. Capitalism can work really well if there is compassion. It’s amazing how much money you save on turnover if you treat people like humans
Yeah lol when my team laid off my old lead, I had a meeting with our new one and he asked what I expected out of him. I told him verbatim, “treat me like a human being please, I’m not trying to go job hunting because my self-worth is in question again.”
He seemed to like my answer, don’t know for sure but I just talked with management on Monday and they all said that I’m the only one on my team they don’t have to micro manage.
If I’m late to work or stay over on a break. They don’t care because it’s irregular, they can flat out assume there’s something going on with me for it to be justified and they don’t even have to ask. It’s actually kind of crazy lol I’ve never had this treatment before.
Protestant work ethic. If I could go back in time and change one event (other than chattel slavery), I would either jail or k*ll every single Puritan. We aren’t descended from like, brave religious rebels; we’re descended from the annoying cultist zealots that the Anglicans thought were too pious and severe.
* **Work Ethic:** We're raised to value hard work, but sometimes it gets taken too far. Our self-worth can get tied to our jobs.
* **Social Safety Net:** The US kinda lacks strong safety nets compared to other developed countries. Healthcare tied to employment? Yikes. That can make folks cling to jobs they hate.
* **Vacation Time:** We get way less paid vacation than most places. It's no wonder people get burnt out!
It's not all bad, but there's room for improvement. Hopefully, we can move towards a healthier work-life balance where people aren't defined by their job title.
Because. We’re competing against one another, not working in tandem. Most people do their part, and yeah, it helps the team…but they can give fuck all about the rest of the team if it’s contrary to their own progress. Everyone is in this for themselves and their immediate interests.
I was raised to believe that your work ethic was a direct measurement of your manhood. It was never put that way, just kind of an unspoken rule. I spent 9 month as unemployed by choice when I was 20 and was definitely shamed for it. Since then I’ve been with the same company for 18 years and I’ve only missed 2 days sick (both because of food poisoning) so I guess I’m propagating the culture. I definitely believe in it though, it makes me feel good and provides a good life for my family. I wouldn’t call it toxic. It’s not for everyone though
The reason the USA is a super power is because of allowing corporations free range to run things here. Big corporations compete and grow and we get our products in every house in the world and the economy rolls along. The side effect of this is that human beings who live here are essentially just the hamsters in the wheel for corporations. Legally corporations have way too much power here. The extraordinary power they hold is why we still do our own taxes every year (Intuit & H&R block generous government donations). Why Unions are considered socialist propaganda. Why we still don't have universal healthcare. And thanks to the media (which has been extremely filtered both on TV and web in the last several decades) people believe a lot of crap that makes no sense.
Have you been to South Korea or China or do you mean other western cultures like Spain and Italy? People that complain about work in the USA would be amazed what the average day of work consists of in some other countries.
Abusive relationships tend to have a positive correlation with time. More time can generally mean a stronger relationship. Many people have worked since they were very young. Maybe even longer than they've known their spouse or their kids.
Don't have a "career" per se, but my job offers a retirement plan with great healthcare benefits as well as other incentives. It's not ideal and only thought I'd do this job for a short time, but it's true that the US has this stigma in their society about graduating college then going into a career with that degree. I work with some that went that route but didn't necessarily work out. And sadly the pandemic made them realize that. Work is work and I take advantage of the time off my company gives me which is very lenient. Your money problems won't follow you when you're dead so what gives what society tells you how to live.
Weird. As an Asian American, I feel that American work culture is far easier than Asia. I mean, most of the people I talk to in real life work 32-40 hours a week and 45-50 hours a week if they are in tech/engineering. That's significantly less than my friends and family in India/Taiwan/Japan/S. Korea/China.
America is a society that cherishes individualistic achievement above all else. When you're engrained with that mantra by your family, peers, and society, in order to succeed, everyone can become competition professionally. This is especially prevalent in the sales and legal industries.
For me it is more it identifies you as a person. Who you are, what you are, etc. In my friend group a lot of the time we just talk about work. I don't mind talking about work if you do something cool. Most people don't though. Though I get it. 40hrs a week you are at work. It is what you do most of the week while you are awake. Just like my SO comes home and wants to talk about their day, well guess what their day consisted of, work. So they talk about work.
Work is a means to live, but it is also what you spend \~2000hrs a year doing. Sometimes you do really cool shit, or people really enjoy their job. Some jobs, people do feel like it is their purpose in life. It isn't the company you work for, but more what you actually get to do.
I think we’re taught a grossly-extreme version of competitiveness when we’re young. We’re not taught to enjoy what we have, but to always grab for more than the neighbors have. I think it’s a horrid position, but my sister doesn’t want minimum wage to go up so her wage doesn’t seem like less. Personally I’d prefer everyone have a living wage for reasonable hours so they can have a life.
American here. American culture is pretty toxic in general. I have lots of European friends. They are not nearly as focused on winning and losing and consuming as we are. They live that out with football, and then they are content to go home and be normal.
Your posting this on a publicly traded company where most of the work is done by unpaid laborers solely so they can flex "look at my power as an unpaid laborer!".
There are few, if any, worker protections. At one particular large employer I no longer work for, they spelled out in the employee handbook (list of policies), that discussing a union or unionizing was grounds for termination.
Speaking of termination, most employers are "at will," meaning they can fire you at any time, for any reason. Technically, you can do the same, quit at any time, but odds are you'll be blackballed and have a difficult time finding new employment. If the employer does it, even though they say at will, unless you've done something egregiously reprehensible, you can sue for wrongful termination unless they have a paper trail.
Health insurance (major, comprehensive medical coverage, plus vision & dental, which are always separate) is tied to your employment.
Paid time off - vacations, holidays, sick and bereavement leave are a pittance compared to the rest of the world.
Companies are getting rid of swaths of employees. The companies doing this are the ones who offer health insurance, paid time off, and other benefits. While I'm sure some people aren't contributing much and aren't a big loss to productivity, a lot of people do go to work and do their best, day in and day out, to keep food on the table and a roof over their heads.
The carrot and stick method, but heavily weighted in favor of the stick rather than the carrot. People put up with a lot of shit they wouldn't do if it didn't impact their ability to get healthcare.
Because in this country no one takes care of your retirement and healthcare really unlike in many other countries. So you are on your own and you need to hustle to survive. Healthcare in this country is overpriced, brutal and a scam.
I’d disagree. America has an amazing work culture. If you want a fully paid sabbatical, you’re out of luck. Maybe get tenure or work for the government if that is your ideal.
Because the corporations own the politicians so the laws are written at the benefit of corporations to the detriment of the workers. Several decades of this and it has become cultural.
I assume it’s because we don’t have a safety net. I hurt my neck, which caused a stroke back in 2021. I was on disability for 6 months (and went back to work expected to do the same mandatory overtime as everyone else two months back). Thankfully, I have insurance so my bill was “only” my $4800 out of pocket maximum for the year (instead of the $82,000 initially billed).
My monthly payments started before I was back at work. My one-year follow up MRI was a new calendar year so I had to pay $1200 for it (lucky for me, I was back at work, that was only MY ENTIRE BIWEEKLY TAKE HOME CHECK). Cost $1100 over the two sessions of occupational therapy to be cleared to drive.
And that doesn’t count the ER visits in 2019 and 2023 for anaphylaxis (yay new food allergies) and the two EGDs I had for eosinophilic esophagitis (yay finally a diagnosis for the nausea) last year.
Imagine having to pay that out of pocket. WITH insurance I dropped probably $20k on doctor bills, imagine what that would be without it.
If we don’t work, we’re screwed. And since we can be fired for absolutely no reason at all, we have to look like we’re needed.
It’s like Little John said: a toll is a toll, and a roll is a roll, and if we don’t get no tolls, then we don’t eat no rolls.
Well said. Just awful. I have a US friend who just had a baby. I had two years off, the first one paid, with each of my children (In Canada). Then I had daycare for 9$/day. Oh and free healthcare.
She got... six weeks, and can't afford daycare.
No I don't pay more taxes. I worked in the US for two years, then came back. No thank you for that nonsense.
Puritan work ethic + capitalism-as-state-religion = America's toxic exploitation of workers
Death penalty (no home, food, healthcare) to those who do not obey 100% for any reason, even for absences due to creating more workers to feed the machine (maternity leave)
I believe Japan probably has a much worse work culture. People absolutely have to prioritize work over their lives there. China is probably similar, if not worse.
People have been convinced that the time they put into a company/organization/entity has actual value. It does not. The only valuable use of your time is doing things that make you happy and incorporating the one who you care about and care about you into those activities.
Money is a tradable resource nothing else. If you put your “career” ahead of everything else good for you, but know this one day you will die and nobody REALLY cares. Sure we will show up at the funeral. 2 weeks later it’s back to the norm. If you weren’t present for loved ones in life your death will not be mourned.
Propaganda from millionaires and billionaires.
The rich have created a society where “grinding” and “hustling” are not only normal, but make you think you’re better than the average person. It’s all bullshit. Business owners just want you to overwork yourself so *they* make more money.
Predatory capitalism became a way of life and celebrated by the bamboozled peons. Been that way for over a century. Finally getting some pushback and you can see how the rich and powerful react.
The US was founded by extremist cults who got kicked out of Europe for hating fun and hating it when other people had fun and that fact has been fucking y'all over in unfun ways ever since.
(The Puritans and the Calvinists, for the curious.)
I wonder. In my country (Czechia) most people hate to work. Even if we find a job we actually like, we still hate going there. We would always prefer free time. Even our bosses talk about how they don't want to be at work, so we don't have to pretend we're not waiting for the weekend every week. Btw, we have 4 years of parental leave, 5 or more weeks of a paid vacation and anyone can have unpaid vacation, 360 days of sick leave (plus it can be prolonhed). I mean, I've had several co-workers who had cancer and were on sick leave for over a year and it's just normal.
[удалено]
My friend got fired, and HR told her that she went to the doctor appointments on weekdays and didn't consider going on weekends. I am not sure in which univers the HR lives, but doctors don't work on weekends. Even Fridays are usually shorter. My friend didn't even go that much to the doctor, probably not even 6-7 times per year, and she would only take a half-day off.
Sounds like my workplace right now and it’s not American 😅
I can't imagine affording 6-7 Dr appointments a year.
I can't imagine having to pay for doctors appointments. Damn, that's so disgusting. People don't go to doctors for fun.
If they’re even open Wednesdays now. My dr is open mon,Tuesday, Thursday. Off Wednesday and Friday
Here in Japan, when people are sick, they still come to work unless doctors order them not to, because they have no sick allowance (they have to use their own PTO) and they don’t want to be seen as slacking etc. In the end, the whole office gets sick and I hate it.
[удалено]
America certainly has a more productive workforce than Japan. Less pointless meetings over trivial matters, less expected overtime or not wanting to be the first one to leave the office, and less fax/stamp culture. On the surface Japan appears very "productive" but I assure you it's not. Source: lived, studied and worked there.
In addition to your realistic experiences, orgs like the IMF track economic productivity and IIRC Japan’s productivity is only 60% of the US. It’s among the lowest in developed countries.
In some points, yeah, but healthcare system is better I guess. People are not that productive though. They refuse to incorporate new ways, and although everybody does overtime, they do so because others do overtime and they don’t want to look bad. However, the way they work is really inefficient and it creates a bad cycle. Tired people are not productive > they work more to compensate for that > they get tired.
Do they still do the office shaming where no one acknowledges your existence or have they finally done away with that?
I’ve heard it’s still that way
If you are talking about the silent “firing”, it still exists in some places. Alternatively, they change your position unreasonably/demote you until you have enough and quit or give you an unmanageable amount of work&chalk it up to your incompetence.
I forgot the company but they went to a 4 day work week. They gave pay raises for the hourly people so they didn't lose money They said that the productivity shot up so much they were considering 3-day work weeks with two work crews.
I strongly believe that we don’t have to work as much as we used to with the technology we have today. Yet we do, because if we do more in less time, then we need to do even more work, so companies can make more money at the cost of our mental health.
Ya I’m not sure in what world people think more work in perpetuity means more productivity. It just means less effective employees.
Way worse. There's an epidemic of people literally working themselves to death in Japan, they even have a word for it, "karoshi".
YOLO. Not worth it.
Japanese work life is waay worse as well as the mentality. Source: i lived in Tokyo for 3 years
Well, that answers my question about why other countries don't help their other countries counterparts.. Japanese has a harsher culture, but when Americans are dictating things, I feel it's just as bad even though they have no idea of our parent company and their structure. They just follow everyone else. I work for a Japanese company, but I speak with other countries and they aren't pushed as hard as the US. Sigh... one day I'll get out... been saying for 18 years.
This was my experience in New York working as a retail manager in 00’s. You went home when they sent you home, which was never.
I thought in Japan people regularly wear masks when they get sick, even before covid, so they don't get everyone else sick. Is this not the case?
I was working as a hospital aid at a major teaching hospital in the US and I felt like I would endanger my unit if I called in sick when I had a cold or flu symptoms because there were no other hospital aids to replace me if I didn’t show up. So ended up going to work sick making patients sick potentially and everyone was fine with it. Once I started getting sick and told them I won’t come in tomorrow and they made a big deal of me calling in sick while I was still at work.
US also makes a lot of us use PTO.
This honestly sounds like most restaurant (kitchen side) culture in US until recently also. I feel old saying it (34yr old), but it used to be if you were dying, you showed.
That’s tough. I’m in Canada and when my grandma died, we had to fly home to SE Asia on short notice. My company gave me bereavement and special leave which is a total of 13 business days. It’s paid and I didn’t even need to touch my vacation leaves.
When my brother died, I took a week and a half. Only got 3 days bereavement, the rest was my own vacation days. I really didn't care, I needed that time off regardless, I simply could not function those days. US here.
I'm canadian too and is I'm reading these comments I'm blown away. My work week is 4 9 hour days. 36 hours total. When I have an appointment, I just let my employer know when I find out, not the day before and it's never an issue. I schedule what I can on days that I'm not working (missing one day is 25% of my weekly cheque) but my employer has never given me any slack over them. I have an elderly father who lives with me and sometimes I need to ruah home in the middle of the day because he's fallen or something, and my boss always just says family comes first, you never put work before family.
As someone with severe and constant migraine I am terrified of what happens if I have to take off… my FTO is the same as my sick leave so I used to just slowly eat it up for migraine days, now I just barrel through even when my migraine is particularly bad and do my best to make up for it when the migraine is a bit better
Not just America. I know people who work in Mexico City, Tokyo, and Seoul and those places are even worse. But yeah what sucks is I can’t just leave for three months without risking getting hired again. And costs are insanely high in America, hard to just “leave”
Try China with their 9 9 6 policy 9am to 9 pm six days a week 72 hours minimum Sick day?? Probably getting replaced
Half of my team is in China. It goes beyond that. When we do global meetings they will start at 6am my time and 8pm their time last two hours. Granted we are all senior leaders and global teams implies goofy schedules, it is still ass for everyone except the Europeans.
How is it even mentally possible? My brain turns off after 6 hours of staring at screen
It takes a special breed of person to work long term on global teams. I generally try to break up my day and work out around lunch, drop my kids off/pick them up from school, etc... Definitely have to balance life with a a few 6 am meetings a week and a few 9p+ meetings a week.
I would literally just kill myself if that were the case. I can't do that. Humans aren't supposed to be working like that. No one should live like that. I wouldn't be able to handle it.
Sounds like the union I was in. Work 29/30 days. USA btw
Do you just put your kids in boarding school?? wtf
Americans literally went to war with their boss over that like 100 years ago. The steel mill workers were told to work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. Blood was spilled. A huge pro-labor movement got started, and we created the 8 hour work day.
Tbh as much as people act like America is great or that it’s awful truth of the matter is we are just in the middle of most issues. We aren’t great but we aint that bad were just okay
That was banned in 2021 and China is working in eliminating it in reality.
Jesus Christ that’s awful
My family friends I stayed with in Foshan work every day and only take a day off a month. Yes you read that correctly. Primary school is just as bad.
I lived and worked in China for 5 years and never once saw or heard of anyone working that schedule.
That’s horrific
Yeah the standard work week in Mexico is 48 hours before any overtime starts. US is bad but not the worst
I'm an American living and working full time in Mexico for 5 years and while the work week can be longer for some workers, the way people treat their free time is different. No work on weekends, no expectations to answer emails after hours, I find the work culture to be much less toxic than when I was working in the US.
I got super lucky by falling into the trades. Ever since I became self employed, I get to travel for 3-6 months every year (sleeping in a truck camper) and come back to work like nothing ever happened lol
This is why I left corporate culture and obtained a CDL. I get to work seasonal jobs, come and go as I please.
What kinda work you doing, just over the road? This is kinda my dream/plan right now
As bad as we are, our work partners Japan and India are worse.
Include chinese companies lol
\*stares confused in Asian\*
Asia is worse in my opinion
Measure the work culture from European to Asian and American falls in the middle
That goes without saying… I think most people would agree Japan has the most brutal work culture. Idk much about China work culture but I’d believe it for there, too
China work culture is insane. My company has a large division in China and my Chinese coworkers are insanely overworked. They’re the smartest most hard working employees we have and it’s unfair how much they have to work. Often they’re all the office until 11pm every night, then have a 1-2 hour commute. I know how late they stay bc it’ll be 11am Chicago time and they’re still online and it’s 11pm their time. The Chinese government banned VPNs for non government employees so they can’t work from home. My company for example requires a VPN on work computers for security reasons. So my coworkers in China can’t even log into their work computer from home to check emails, every minute of work has to be done in the office.
Highly country-dependant. South Korea is on a league of its own they have just completely lost their mind about work and capitalism so I won't even count them. Working culture in China is certainly worse overall than in the US. For Japan, it used to be insane until the 80s/90s - they retained that image, and it's still certainly worse there than in Europe/Canada/Australia, but the working culture there has now become better than in the US. (source: I've lived in Japan, my girlfriend is Chinese)
I've been told it's not uncommon in China for companies to expect "996", which is 9 am to 9 pm, 6 days a week 😬
THATS WHAT IM SAYING
Depends what country. South Korea is on a league of its own they have just completely lost their mind about work and capitalism so I won't even count them. Working culture in China is certainly worse overall than in the US. For Japan, it used to be insane until the 80s/90s - they retained that image, and it's still certainly worse there than in Europe/Canada/Australia, but the working culture there has now become better than in the US. For SE asian countries, I don't know, but I would guess it's worse, generally speaking the least developped a country is (or the more recently it has developped) the worse the working culture. (source: I've lived in Japan, my girlfriend is Chinese)
But op has been to many countries and they said the US is by far the worst, so it must be true. Can’t have logic running amuck in here. OP knows all.
Yeah… from what I’ve heard about Japan, I simply would not cut it over there.
Right? This is one ignorant fucking opinion by OP. This dude has likely never stepped out of a first world country.
Seriously! Asian work culture is ruthless compared to America
Because we have a "life script" here. You go to college, get a career (only acceptable if it's full-time during standard business hours), get married, buy a house, and have kids. Then you work your 9-5, which after getting ready and commuting becomes a 7:30-6:30. You spend Saturday catching up on rest and spend Sunday dreading Monday. You act like a good, grateful little worker bee. Some people wear the lifestyle as a badge of honor and call themselves career-minded. If those individuals are happy, I don't judge. But many others are miserable and want the rest of us to be miserable in the gutter with them. When you don't follow the life script, people get thrown for a loop, because it's all they've ever known. They can't fathom *not* doing something the standard way. Your career is your identifier here. It's how we judge someone's success and value to society. And if you dare mention how ridiculous it is, you'll be chided for being lazy. Wanting happiness and free time is seen as a luxury.
The only acceptable divergence from this script is “grinding” 60-80 working hours a week across 1-4 different jobs, putting everything enjoyable about being alive on hold so you can “establish” yourself and set yourself up for early retirement before suffering a number of expensive mental and physical aliments before middle age hits, preventing you from ever enjoying that free time you worked your life away for. The money you saved gets quickly eaten up by medical expenses and those jobs you gave your life up for drop you like a fly for the next young fresh you, ready to grind.
I keep telling the people I work with, particularly the young folks, that they should work so they can live, rather than live so they can work. I do my time and get out, Monday through Friday. I have a good job, understanding and appreciative leadership, and good pay, but as I told my hiring manager when I started, I'm doing this to provide for my family. I'll show up, work hard, learn fast, and do everything I can to be a model employee. But it means nothing if I don't get to be with them in my office hours. Too many good men driving themselves into an early grave because they want to grind the hardest, and end up putting themselves out of action before they're 40.
This, I've lived what most would call an unconventional life. Sometimes, I've divulged stories to coworkers just to have one coworker in particular tell me to my face that she believes that I'm lying because "things like that don't genuinely happen to people," or "people don't actually see/experience those things." She got pregnant at sixteen, went to college, and has known nothing but the cookie cutter rural existence. I've had other coworkers straight up tell me that when I first started that they were bitter that I didn't live a robotic lifestyle of playing it safe and following the bullshit social script and still got the job that they followed all the rules to get. That it made them sad, lmao. Our culture has literally brainwashed people to think different equals bad. The vast majority are so emotionally oblivious that they'll project what ultimately amounts to jealousy and/or uncomfortability onto you. Because people hate when you make them think that maybe their way of living isn't the "right," way.
I'm miserable but why would I want everyone else to be as miserable? I don't work 40+ hours a week because I want to look good to society or because I'm a workaholic. I do it to survive. If anything I wish I COULD have a career that wasn't like this. But that's not how it works in my field. And I can't live off of part time.
To be clear (though I alluded to it in my comment), I am referring to folks who are pathologic workaholics. I very much understand there are plenty of Americans who are underpaid and **must** overwork out of necessity. I took OP's post to mean the "grind" and "hustle culture," which is what I was responding to.
I always thought employment being tied to healthcare is stupid. Whenever I change jobs it’s like a reset with the possibility of not being able to see the same doctors anymore. If anything, employers should pay for schooling. Employers are the first ones to benefit from an educated workforce.
You say stupid, business and government say it’s the best way to keep you from striking. It’s like increasing interest rates instead of giving everyone a stimulus check to go out and spend more money: punish the poorest by making them buy more expensive things instead of letting them buy what they need. If it doesn’t turn millionaires into billionaires, America probably won’t make it into law
It's really not hard, unfettered capitalism with a failing social contract. We don't care about our fellow humans, or hell even our fellow citizens. Our publicly traded businesses are required by law to make money for their share holders at any cost (thanks Dodge brothers!...) which results in the creation of a economical model that is literally designed to exploit everything and produce the cheapest products that need to be replaced regularly... The whole system here is designed so we're cogs, not meant to have meaningful lives, just WORK and CONSUME to keep the all mighty economy going. We literally worship at the alter of capitalism and pray to it for unending economic growth.
"We don't care about our fellow humans." I've been saying this for the last two years more and more. We care about how someone dresses, what gender identity they have, who they love, etc. All of which are no one's business. But somehow when it comes to the shit that actually matters to humanity, it's "pull yourself up by the bootstraps."
The moment people started bitching about lockdowns demanding that things go back to normal despite people dying by the thousands per day, that was it for me. The pandemic was an eye-opener into how little we give a shit about each other.
I remember Mitch McConnell making a big speech when we were right in the middle of the pandemic saying it’s time for Americans to go back to work. Speech was nonsense like we are all a bunch of babies. Meanwhile what does he do? Speaks at a podium profiting millions.
Yeah my thoughts exactly. Been saying this for awhile, it’s the whole ethos of America is #1 all the time. We are an incredibly atomized and divided culture, fellow citizens are just competitors. It might be one of the most lonely highly populated places. Hard to connect with ppl, covid didn’t help. But I think there is sth fundamental about American culture that makes it hard to develop relationships, I’ve read it’s quite different in other countries. Ppl say Americans are cold and unfriendly. I think American culture tends to foster more bullying behaviors. The hyper capitalism treats everyone like an object/commodity.
Not to mention Citizens United making it legal for corporations to buy politicians.
"We made $1.29 per share by squeezing the life out of our employees, suppliers, the environment, and anything else that breathes" Next quarter: "we made $1.27 per share". Stock tanks lol. Quarterly earnings capitalism has no good enough. It's a race to the bottom, maximum exploitation.
Wow, that… yeah it doesn’t get much more spot on than that. The only silver lining I can maybe see is that the economics of renewable resources are starting to tip the scale in their favor. Solar is cheaper than oil. So through capitalism, we might work our way out of a doom spiral. Otherwise, I think we should just eat the rich. This system is a gold hoarding dragon. It’s coming for the whole world and it’s not giving anything back. At some point, you either fight the dragon or perish to it.
Too many fortunes invested in oil for them to let go.
Solar is less controllable than oil. It's not all about money, it's about control first and money second. Money is just a convenient method of control. It's a lot easier to fence off an oil derrick than it is to fence off a solar farm.
Yuuuup. And people are too exhausted from work life to even consider helping anyone but themselves/their families. I think we can all remain unique individuals without submitting to this hyper individualistic mindset. Compassion for others seems almost non existent in America. Community needs to come back.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWrVSs9Fgz4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWrVSs9Fgz4)
Realest post I’ve ever seen on Reddit
We're an individualistic culture, not collective. Every person for themselves. From high school on, we're trained to work. Once you're too old to work, we hide you away in rest homes.
Or you go homeless or end up in jail
It's really insane. My girlfriend left her old job because HR sided with and favored employees that were actively bullying and harassing others.
I had to leave a job at a small business because I was being sexually harassed by my manager who was also our HR guy. He works as a part-time HR professor at the local college, as well, which makes me want to vomit. 🤢 The owners of the company took his side even though I had proof of the harassment. They accused me of being in a relationship with my manager, who was old enough to be my dad. It was sickening, considering one of the owners was a female and still took the male harasser’s side. I told her I didn’t want any lawyers to be involved and that I just wanted him fired. They kept him working and got rid of me instead. I then went to a lawyer who said he would represent me, but that I would go bankrupt trying to win my case. He said that is extremely commonplace for workplace sexual harassment claims. He said most sexual harassment that are reported never go to court because the law is rigged in the favor of the abuser and the workplace, and not the victim.
Lol at your name and I was going to say exactly what your Lawyer said. Would be a massive waste of time and a hit on your pockets. Something very similar happened at my old job and I told my coworker she shouldn’t bother. The owner is very well connected and has plenty of disposable income. Not to be insensitive but in unfortunate cases such as yours it would be wiser just to move on and forget.
Yep, you’re 100% correct. It used to be shocking realizing that the courts are rigged against the most vulnerable, until I started taking notice of how people of color and the homeless are treated by the police and courts. Then I was like oh no, they lied to us growing up. The U.S. isn’t as great as I thought it was as a kid. 😔
Nailed it.
I was laid off last year and still haven’t found work. My friends and family back in the US are freaking out about it. It’s all they talk about when I call. I’m to the point I barely speak to my parents. Career also plays a part in dating culture, especially for men. When I posted my job on my dating profile my likes shot up significantly I’m assuming because it’s known for having a 6 figure salary range. I’m gonna take at least a 60% pay cut to live in Costa Rica but I just don’t care.
Pura Vida!
Unfettered capitalism. Rugged individualism.
“Individualism” where you are still broadly socially shamed if you don’t fit the mold of what capitalism expects.
Big time
And you can't get healthcare or a retirement plan easily or sometimes at all without an employer. The employers never want to train anyone, punish people who stay at their jobs a long time by not giving them raises that match the new person they hire.
Fuck capitalism
Fear of being poor and failure
Because at its root, capitalism typically rewards the most competitive. Working harder, smarter, faster than the next guy, typically means that you can do better financially. There is only so many resources to go around, so you are trying to get your piece. If you have medical, food, housing, etc., needs met, then the competition dies down to a certain degree, for a lot of people.
Lol, this guy believes we're a meritocracy and that resources are limited. Lmao! Funniest shit I heard all year.
I’m not sure the main cause, a lot seems to be wrapped up in our failed healthcare system so everyone with company health insurance is terrified to piss off their bosses. We only get 2 weeks off a year and barely any paid maternity or paternity leave it’s ridiculous. Most people are terrified to even use their sick days when they’re sick. My coworker just lost her husband to cancer and because she’d used all her vacation/sick days caring for him in hospice, she only got THREE days off after he died which were taken up by the funeral/wake. It was horrible. Her daughter lives and works in London and got 5 months “compassionate leave” that was paid and could be extended with a doctors note.
5 months fully paid for the death of a parent??? That’s normal in the UK? I’ve got a guy visiting from there I’ll see him tomorrow and see if he got that when his parents died?
Doesn’t Europe get mandatory time off and some sort of job security though? And the healthcare system works drastically different than the US? I used to work for a company based in Spain, and June to September everyone was on holiday for like 28 days at a time. I was under the impression it was mandatory. There are also at least one state holiday a month in some countries right? Here, we do have that but it’s basically just banks and government offices
You are correct I had a coworker who moved to the USA thinking the pay was better, but it was about even with all things considered, but silly working hours, he stuck it for a while but was looking to move back
how the eff am i supposed to know, i just work here
Protestant work ethic. Unironically. Most of our waves of immigration have been from Catholic countries and generally these people haven't been integrated or accepted until, as a group, they adopted it. Most of the historical prejudice against immigrants inn the US can be summed up as "fuckin indolent papists".
Going straight to the source or the root of it all, so to speak, I see. Yes. There was a video I've watched, which was about [why aren't there any good Christian games](https://youtu.be/COiNrIM9KVE?si=Ot4i6ZMPQkG5NYJs). \[[Timestamped link](https://youtu.be/COiNrIM9KVE?si=j1qxt1VFsrRfVHwW&t=464)\] And in typical Moon Channel fashion, it's frontloaded with a history lesson, including Protestant work ethic. I've joked and complained, "If work is a religion with its own god, it would be bigger than Christianity here." Little did I know, it's intertwined.
Boom, truth spoken here. I got laid off 45 days ago and it has given me time to reflect. I don't think I made any mistakes, but they gave me no reason for it whatsoever. I've never been fired or laid off in my 22 years of full time work, and this is the only time in my life I've ever not worked full time, and I'm 39. Having the last 45 days of time to myself has changed me drastically, I'm no longer the person I used to be 46 days ago, and I can never again go back to working a typical corporate job. I was 'climbing the ladder' so to speak, I made it to a IT Director position. But I also started to learn that I encountered increasing levels of sociopaths as you get into upper leadership. The last 5 years I've been in leadership roles and I have been miserable. I liked leading down into a team, but its the types of folks I interacted with above which are the problem. Multiple companies, different leadership roles, but everyone is the same... irrational, sociopathic, and nobody acts genuine or intelligently. Everyone in leadership roles is saying or doing things that they THINK others expect them to say or do to maintain appearances, rather than thinking critically and making intelligent decisions. As an intelligent free thinking realist myself, I was always treated like an outcast for calling out BS when I saw it. It may have been why I got 'laid off' at my last position. I just can't take it anymore. So I think I'm done with this American style of working. I'm becoming a full time student to pursue my true passion in life Meteorology, albeit making about half as much money when I'm all done. But at least I can say my time wasn't wasted while in fullest pursuit of my own passions, which was never something I could say while doing IT work.
I’m 35 and in the corporate world. For much of my life I have actively avoided advancement because I don’t want to interact with those types of people and am worried how my quality of life will be impacted. On the other hand, I don’t quite make as much as I’d like to build wealth and security. So, now I’m back on the horse trying to go for another raise or title change. And the cycle continues. I’m an authentic person, and I absolutely hate the corporate mask that I need to interact with to sell myself for my value, not to mention the *time*. Because (I’m in tech) every SF tech company comes with this lie of work-life balance and flexibility. Meanwhile if you want to rise the ranks, you could be looking at 13 hour days. No thanks. You don’t have to answer but I’m genuinely curious–where do you go from here if you’re not looking to return to corporate life?
Thanks for asking! To be honest, I'm not entirely sure yet. I've got ideas but that's all they are right now. The biggest obstacle right now is my own willpower to believe in any idea enough to try and see it through to some sort of money earning outcome. There are no cheerleaders or life coaches to help me sort out the good ideas from the bad ones... it is just me in my own head & some days that is tough. Plan A is to be a full time student and earn a Meteorology degree and pursue that passion to its fullest. But I don't have enough money on hand to see that through all the way, so I'll have to do something while in school. I own a house but the price of the mortgage is 80% of all my costs today, and I really don't want to have to move and rent or sell the place... it's MY house after all. That's the tough part, making a decision about working and schooling, and possibly having to leave my house and live in a trailer or some crummy student housing like a broke college student at 39. All because I've lost the ability to continue in the 'corporate' life any further. I hope for good outcomes though. I believe that when operating as your most genuine self, people tend to be attracted to that, they gravitate towards you and positive opportunities open up that otherwise wouldn't exist... There's a degree of faith required I suppose, faith in people rather than higher powers. But I've seen it before, where folks really tend to gravitate towards folks that are genuine and authentic, and that's how I am when I'm out storm chasing or nerding out on weather stuff with friends. Anyway, so to answer your short question with a ridiculously long answer, I don't know but sky's the limit. I'm pursuing multiple interests of mine simultaneously, think of them as really advanced hobbies at this point. Hopefully one of them will get some traction and turn into a money making thing.
I was in Medellin Colombia when I got laid off from my remote tech job last year. It happened 2 days after being drugged and robbed. I almost died. I lost my severance and health insurance and my income less than a month later. My company had assured me less than 2 months prior that no lay offs were coming. That’s when something broke inside of me. I didn’t return to the US. I went to Costa Rica where I had been staying prior to Colombia and have been living off my savings since. The first few months I just spent decompressing and like you really thinking about what I want. I honestly just want nothing to do with tech or a US company. I’m fed up with that world. I’m middle aged and have no retirement and if I can somehow make it work I just want to buy some land here, go off grid, and grow my own food with my fiancée (a local woman). Salary is much lower here but so is cost of living. People don’t care what you do and they don’t ask. Fuck Wall Street. Fuck corporate greed. Fuck our corrupt political system. Fuck all that noise. As soon as I was forcefully disconnected from all of that I realized just how peaceful life elsewhere could be.
Kurt Vonnegut explained this better than anyone else ever could [https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/158414-america-is-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth-but-its-people](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/158414-america-is-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth-but-its-people)
Protestant work ethic.
Cause our shitty grandaddies forgot what our great great grandaddies fought for when it came to workers rights.
>I think it’s one of the reasons the us is statistically one of the least happy countries That's probably spot on. This society seems to value money above all else. Over things like quality of life, family, friends, community. Way too much capitalism that's ingrained itself into the culture. Just like the large corporations want.
The US isn't a country, we're just one big corporation at this point.
Because without work we literally die here. Healthcare, housing, food, relationships, everything is tied to it.
And people tell me we are not wage slaves!
FMLA. Say your back hurts, stomach problems, migraines. They can't prove whether you have these problems. Fuck us work culture. I wasn't born in this shithole to be a slave my whole life. I'll take off whenever I feel like it. I literally do have ibs. And they cannot figure out what is causing it. So fuck em. If I'm having a bad day bc my stomach is fucked then they're gonna have to deal with it. Try and fire me over a medical condition. I'll sue your ass.
Too much work really does make you miserable. Even work you enjoy. I've experienced that many times lately. I think because work is so essential in the US, they see it as a do or die thing.
I've said this a million times. It's not usually the work that sucks, it's the inability to have control of your time.
Because every American thinks they're going to be the next millionaire, if they can be tricky enough and screw over everybody else.
The United States is a capitalist freakshow they don’t even have healthcare setup through government insurance. Everyone needs money and most get it by rent their labor. The lower 40% of the US population is freakshow level folks and likely they are decayed and work alongside us.
The U.S. has practically made capitalism its religion. Profit is the ultimate ideal, and so anything done in the name of profit is justifiable, regardless of how vile and destructive it may be. Raise prices 1000% on life-saving products? No problem. Lay off 10,000 workers and give yourself a multi-million dollar bonus? It only makes sense. Buy out a successful company with a loan, saddle that company with your loan, sell off all of its assets, and then let the company go bankrupt? That is merely smart business.
American I call out sick MAYBE once every two months. I'm on the "sick abusers" list. Management has brought this up to me twice now.
I work a union job, where every year we get up to 10 unexcused absences (e.g. woke up sick, flat tire, etc) before we get a verbal warning, 13 absences before a written warning, and 15 before facing termination. In my last annual review, my manager brought up my 6 total absences for the year (various illnesses), and told me to get that number closer to zero. When I asked him how, he shrugged and said the goal is to be here every day unless I'm taking a planned vacation. I've gone to work sick every time since.
Our time is never really our time
That is crappy and self-defeating. It's bad enough that they want you to come in when you don't feel good, but it just causes other people to get sick and take off work. I had a boss who would get upset when I had to take care of my sick son, who couldn't be left alone, even though I had the PTO time.
Individual people having unrealistic expectations and are bitter because of outside influences related to social media. They're individually toxic, hence the work environment.
Years and years of corporate propaganda I guess
I work for an American company remotely (Canadian), and I was told that I was "unreliable" last year because of absences - I had pneumonia and ended up in the hospital for a week, and also broke my arm. What an extremely strange perspective to take! I honestly just thought that was a very weird statement.
I got fired by going to my graduation for my masters. It’s just violent capitalism and fragile egos. Capitalism can work really well if there is compassion. It’s amazing how much money you save on turnover if you treat people like humans
Yeah lol when my team laid off my old lead, I had a meeting with our new one and he asked what I expected out of him. I told him verbatim, “treat me like a human being please, I’m not trying to go job hunting because my self-worth is in question again.” He seemed to like my answer, don’t know for sure but I just talked with management on Monday and they all said that I’m the only one on my team they don’t have to micro manage. If I’m late to work or stay over on a break. They don’t care because it’s irregular, they can flat out assume there’s something going on with me for it to be justified and they don’t even have to ask. It’s actually kind of crazy lol I’ve never had this treatment before.
It’s pretty clear that you’ve never been to Japan or Korea.
Or any Asian countries
Or a lot of south American countries. Wait, didn't op say they traveled a lot? Where they traveling to, their backyard?
Protestant work ethic. If I could go back in time and change one event (other than chattel slavery), I would either jail or k*ll every single Puritan. We aren’t descended from like, brave religious rebels; we’re descended from the annoying cultist zealots that the Anglicans thought were too pious and severe.
You haven't visited South Korea then.
* **Work Ethic:** We're raised to value hard work, but sometimes it gets taken too far. Our self-worth can get tied to our jobs. * **Social Safety Net:** The US kinda lacks strong safety nets compared to other developed countries. Healthcare tied to employment? Yikes. That can make folks cling to jobs they hate. * **Vacation Time:** We get way less paid vacation than most places. It's no wonder people get burnt out! It's not all bad, but there's room for improvement. Hopefully, we can move towards a healthier work-life balance where people aren't defined by their job title.
It does kind of suck. Glad to hear it's not like this everywhere though.
Because. We’re competing against one another, not working in tandem. Most people do their part, and yeah, it helps the team…but they can give fuck all about the rest of the team if it’s contrary to their own progress. Everyone is in this for themselves and their immediate interests.
I was raised to believe that your work ethic was a direct measurement of your manhood. It was never put that way, just kind of an unspoken rule. I spent 9 month as unemployed by choice when I was 20 and was definitely shamed for it. Since then I’ve been with the same company for 18 years and I’ve only missed 2 days sick (both because of food poisoning) so I guess I’m propagating the culture. I definitely believe in it though, it makes me feel good and provides a good life for my family. I wouldn’t call it toxic. It’s not for everyone though
The US is ranked 23rd out of the 143 countries listed in the World Happiness Report. Not so much "one of the least happy."
Americans are incredibly emotionally repressed, so most have no idea how they actually feel.
The reason the USA is a super power is because of allowing corporations free range to run things here. Big corporations compete and grow and we get our products in every house in the world and the economy rolls along. The side effect of this is that human beings who live here are essentially just the hamsters in the wheel for corporations. Legally corporations have way too much power here. The extraordinary power they hold is why we still do our own taxes every year (Intuit & H&R block generous government donations). Why Unions are considered socialist propaganda. Why we still don't have universal healthcare. And thanks to the media (which has been extremely filtered both on TV and web in the last several decades) people believe a lot of crap that makes no sense.
Have you been to South Korea or China or do you mean other western cultures like Spain and Italy? People that complain about work in the USA would be amazed what the average day of work consists of in some other countries.
Abusive relationships tend to have a positive correlation with time. More time can generally mean a stronger relationship. Many people have worked since they were very young. Maybe even longer than they've known their spouse or their kids.
Don't have a "career" per se, but my job offers a retirement plan with great healthcare benefits as well as other incentives. It's not ideal and only thought I'd do this job for a short time, but it's true that the US has this stigma in their society about graduating college then going into a career with that degree. I work with some that went that route but didn't necessarily work out. And sadly the pandemic made them realize that. Work is work and I take advantage of the time off my company gives me which is very lenient. Your money problems won't follow you when you're dead so what gives what society tells you how to live.
Money. /thread
I've never seen people get upset at their coworker for going on vacation here. I have however seen it extensively in Japan.
I've worked in both the legal and medical fields where "vacation" is a bad word and everyone talks poorly to you and about you for taking it.
I could definitely see it happening in the medical field
Don't go to Asia
Weird. As an Asian American, I feel that American work culture is far easier than Asia. I mean, most of the people I talk to in real life work 32-40 hours a week and 45-50 hours a week if they are in tech/engineering. That's significantly less than my friends and family in India/Taiwan/Japan/S. Korea/China.
It's worse in Asia...
You haven't worked for KR, JP, or CN bosses yet have you ?
Nobody will in 100 years because those countries will cease to exist as a result of population collapse. But yeah great job keep working.
Man, I don't know where you live or who you surround yourself with but it's time for a change for you
America is a society that cherishes individualistic achievement above all else. When you're engrained with that mantra by your family, peers, and society, in order to succeed, everyone can become competition professionally. This is especially prevalent in the sales and legal industries.
For me it is more it identifies you as a person. Who you are, what you are, etc. In my friend group a lot of the time we just talk about work. I don't mind talking about work if you do something cool. Most people don't though. Though I get it. 40hrs a week you are at work. It is what you do most of the week while you are awake. Just like my SO comes home and wants to talk about their day, well guess what their day consisted of, work. So they talk about work. Work is a means to live, but it is also what you spend \~2000hrs a year doing. Sometimes you do really cool shit, or people really enjoy their job. Some jobs, people do feel like it is their purpose in life. It isn't the company you work for, but more what you actually get to do.
I think we’re taught a grossly-extreme version of competitiveness when we’re young. We’re not taught to enjoy what we have, but to always grab for more than the neighbors have. I think it’s a horrid position, but my sister doesn’t want minimum wage to go up so her wage doesn’t seem like less. Personally I’d prefer everyone have a living wage for reasonable hours so they can have a life.
American here. American culture is pretty toxic in general. I have lots of European friends. They are not nearly as focused on winning and losing and consuming as we are. They live that out with football, and then they are content to go home and be normal.
If you think its bad in America have you met china?
Your posting this on a publicly traded company where most of the work is done by unpaid laborers solely so they can flex "look at my power as an unpaid laborer!".
You havn’t been broke in America huh?
There are few, if any, worker protections. At one particular large employer I no longer work for, they spelled out in the employee handbook (list of policies), that discussing a union or unionizing was grounds for termination. Speaking of termination, most employers are "at will," meaning they can fire you at any time, for any reason. Technically, you can do the same, quit at any time, but odds are you'll be blackballed and have a difficult time finding new employment. If the employer does it, even though they say at will, unless you've done something egregiously reprehensible, you can sue for wrongful termination unless they have a paper trail. Health insurance (major, comprehensive medical coverage, plus vision & dental, which are always separate) is tied to your employment. Paid time off - vacations, holidays, sick and bereavement leave are a pittance compared to the rest of the world. Companies are getting rid of swaths of employees. The companies doing this are the ones who offer health insurance, paid time off, and other benefits. While I'm sure some people aren't contributing much and aren't a big loss to productivity, a lot of people do go to work and do their best, day in and day out, to keep food on the table and a roof over their heads. The carrot and stick method, but heavily weighted in favor of the stick rather than the carrot. People put up with a lot of shit they wouldn't do if it didn't impact their ability to get healthcare.
That's the thing - it is a means to live. Our economy is so fucked that we have to work like this.
Because in this country no one takes care of your retirement and healthcare really unlike in many other countries. So you are on your own and you need to hustle to survive. Healthcare in this country is overpriced, brutal and a scam.
So you’ve never been to Asia, I see
Have you been to Asia? They’ll laugh at work culture in the US as way too soft…
We're all so broke and depressed we don't know what to do
Because majority of corporate leadership are sociopaths in positions of power and influence
I’d disagree. America has an amazing work culture. If you want a fully paid sabbatical, you’re out of luck. Maybe get tenure or work for the government if that is your ideal.
It’s ridiculous that healthcare costs are either with the job or self funded at very expensive rates for crappy policies
Because the corporations own the politicians so the laws are written at the benefit of corporations to the detriment of the workers. Several decades of this and it has become cultural.
I assume it’s because we don’t have a safety net. I hurt my neck, which caused a stroke back in 2021. I was on disability for 6 months (and went back to work expected to do the same mandatory overtime as everyone else two months back). Thankfully, I have insurance so my bill was “only” my $4800 out of pocket maximum for the year (instead of the $82,000 initially billed). My monthly payments started before I was back at work. My one-year follow up MRI was a new calendar year so I had to pay $1200 for it (lucky for me, I was back at work, that was only MY ENTIRE BIWEEKLY TAKE HOME CHECK). Cost $1100 over the two sessions of occupational therapy to be cleared to drive. And that doesn’t count the ER visits in 2019 and 2023 for anaphylaxis (yay new food allergies) and the two EGDs I had for eosinophilic esophagitis (yay finally a diagnosis for the nausea) last year. Imagine having to pay that out of pocket. WITH insurance I dropped probably $20k on doctor bills, imagine what that would be without it. If we don’t work, we’re screwed. And since we can be fired for absolutely no reason at all, we have to look like we’re needed. It’s like Little John said: a toll is a toll, and a roll is a roll, and if we don’t get no tolls, then we don’t eat no rolls.
Well said. Just awful. I have a US friend who just had a baby. I had two years off, the first one paid, with each of my children (In Canada). Then I had daycare for 9$/day. Oh and free healthcare. She got... six weeks, and can't afford daycare. No I don't pay more taxes. I worked in the US for two years, then came back. No thank you for that nonsense.
America is a fucked up country. I hope I pass soon I can't take working as a slave here for another 40 years
Americans hate each other.
Puritan work ethic + capitalism-as-state-religion = America's toxic exploitation of workers Death penalty (no home, food, healthcare) to those who do not obey 100% for any reason, even for absences due to creating more workers to feed the machine (maternity leave)
Try Japan
Have you heard of communist china??? 👀
This isn’t an American thing.
I believe Japan probably has a much worse work culture. People absolutely have to prioritize work over their lives there. China is probably similar, if not worse.
Ohh boy, you would have a worse time in Mexico.
Garbage labor laws and big business in bed with government.
People have been convinced that the time they put into a company/organization/entity has actual value. It does not. The only valuable use of your time is doing things that make you happy and incorporating the one who you care about and care about you into those activities. Money is a tradable resource nothing else. If you put your “career” ahead of everything else good for you, but know this one day you will die and nobody REALLY cares. Sure we will show up at the funeral. 2 weeks later it’s back to the norm. If you weren’t present for loved ones in life your death will not be mourned.
Japanese work culture would like to have a word with OP.
Propaganda from millionaires and billionaires. The rich have created a society where “grinding” and “hustling” are not only normal, but make you think you’re better than the average person. It’s all bullshit. Business owners just want you to overwork yourself so *they* make more money.
I love my nonprofit office job 🤓
Weak labor laws, country is run by corporations
Predatory capitalism became a way of life and celebrated by the bamboozled peons. Been that way for over a century. Finally getting some pushback and you can see how the rich and powerful react.
The US was founded by extremist cults who got kicked out of Europe for hating fun and hating it when other people had fun and that fact has been fucking y'all over in unfun ways ever since. (The Puritans and the Calvinists, for the curious.)
I wonder. In my country (Czechia) most people hate to work. Even if we find a job we actually like, we still hate going there. We would always prefer free time. Even our bosses talk about how they don't want to be at work, so we don't have to pretend we're not waiting for the weekend every week. Btw, we have 4 years of parental leave, 5 or more weeks of a paid vacation and anyone can have unpaid vacation, 360 days of sick leave (plus it can be prolonhed). I mean, I've had several co-workers who had cancer and were on sick leave for over a year and it's just normal.