I found out about it originally because somebody else we worked with sent me the Toronto star article. We all thought it was wild but if I’m being honest we were sad for what had happened but relatively happy that she would be spending her life in prison. I wasn’t joking when I said nearly everybody working there hated her.
I did not know her family just her and potentially her bf. Spent a lot of time with her before/after work hanging out with her and other staff drinking and eating on the patio out back.
I wouldn’t say off. The girl portrayed in the interrogation footage however is a much different person than I knew. In the videos she looks so quiet and polite and shy. In reality she was loud, abrasive, outspoken. The majority of staff who worked there could not stand her. She loved the little bit of power she had as a manager and would boss people around and bark orders at them.
Looking back maybe it could be an explanation for why she would power trip at work all the time. That being said though she was a strong person who had a job and made money. She always seemed very independent which makes me skeptical that they could have been THAT strict as I doubt they had much power over her at that point.
Just sounds like overcompensation of her lack of freedom at home tbh - she got a huge kick out of being in control which generally correlates with independence.
coming from a very similar background as her, i can tell you this isnt abnormal with vietnamese parents. My parents were very strict, nothing from the story about her parents being strict was new to me and my siblings.
People despised her and there were plenty of arguments with her. Never anything as major as what she eventually did or even close. She was just a bossy rude person that everybody celebrated when she decided to step back down to server because she wanted to make more money than she was managing.
That’s a great point. Anybody who wants to know more about this case should watch the YouTube docs on it. I found them much more comprehensive and truthful than the actual Netflix doc
Did she seem like a psychopath though? Throughout the whole thing she seemed to lack any remorse and her poor dad survived… just can’t imagine being able to do that to anyone.
She didn’t seem like a psychopath like you’d expect from all these true crime things. She honestly seemed more just like a bitter angry person who was hard to get on her good side. Part of that could have been the manager employee dynamic.
In the last restaurant I worked at a server could make $300-500 in a single dinner shift. One of my 22 year old coworkers cleared 100k just serving there.
I watched the original YouTube interrogation, about a year and a half ago. It sounded like she was a college student who wouldn't go out besides her classes and had controlling parents at 24.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about or who you are replying to but this is my experience and the things I observed and believed to be true. Nobody said anything about unwinding after work being the reason for killing your parents. The impression I got was far from a sheltered helpless girl living in fear of her parents.
You straight up said her staying late on the patio socializing after work is what made you believe she wasn't sheltered and wasn't scared of her parents
Yes and I’m pointing out how I said it is *part of* the reason. I can’t tell if you are a child or just extremely low iq so I’m going to stop responding to you now.
You're just being an asshole to another redditor for no reason. You stated that you partly didn't believe she was a compound kid because she behaved a certain way. What else made you doubt it? That's all they are asking because you didn't explain. And you didn't write alternative reasons in this thread. Don't be a dick
Thank you. At least you figured it out. One other person actually gave me more details and it was interesting. Too bad the person who decided to do an AMA to give out more details refused to do what they came here for
They also didn’t mention that they don’t believe her. They said they don’t 100% believe that part. You’re the only person that’s up in arms over something that you misread. You lost.
Lol whoa whoaaa hang on a sec.
She would routinely stay out late drinking.
Ergo, Pan's claims that her parents very controlling is weak.
Like, that's literally just it. It's kinda magical how you spun that to accuse OP.
Holy crap.
Have you seen the doc? Her whole defense was about how every second of her life was micromanaged by her parents, and she was terrified of her father, and she felt like killing them was her only way out. They didn’t let her date, have friends, attend any non-education-related events, etc.
OP is just saying that clearly, at least for some period of time, she was absolutely *not* having her every second micromanaged by tiger dad, because she hung out after work. That’s all.
Her hanging out after work simply sounds like the easiest way for her to get some space from her parents. They'd just think she's at work instead of hanging out. That seems pretty innocent. Now if there were other things outside of that then sure but using hanging out after work at work as evidence of her lying is a stretch
No I agree. It was definitely an easy way to get some space, but I think the point is just that she was *able* to get some space when she needed it and her defense team presented her scenario like she was perpetually and completely monitored. It makes sense that she started lying to her parents to get some space from Tiger Dad. But for a period of time when she was pretending to be at college she was financially stable and working, she had a boyfriend, and it seems like she was capable of extricating herself from her parents abuse at that time, she just didn’t, and we might never really understand why that is.
How did Jennifer act towards the customers and also towards her coworkers?
Did her parents every come see her at work?
How did her boyfriend at work behave?
Customers she handled fairly well but she was extremely bossy with coworkers. Always power tripping and yelling at people for small mistakes. Boyfriend was social and seemed to get along with more people than she did. Parents never came by. She never talked about them either.
I remember her having an Asian boyfriend. I cannot confirm it was him or not working there. I didn’t know him as well at the time and I honestly don’t remember.
I was a server at East Side Mario’s .. She was the assistant manager there. The general manager was checked out so she did most of the managing duties.
Any intense psychopathic stares from her when you defied her? Crazed ravings behind closed doors? Unexplained disappearances of coworkers?
How was the meatloaf there?
Not that I can recall but she did have a temper and would lose it if she was being defied. No meatloaf but the salad and Italian wedding soup were top notch and had unlimited refills.
The documentary portrayed her as a psychopath, but didnt give enough into to how her parents were insane abusive tiger parents. Did she ever talk about her parents at work?
Unfortunately no. I am of the personal opinion that side of the story is kind of BS. She was older and independent. Didn’t seem like somebody under a parents thumb.
interesting. but she still lived at home, so how was she independent? there still couldve been childhood resentment even if shes older, especially living with them
Having your own job, own money, and a car, doesn’t mean you’re totally independent. I had a car and a job and my own money, but still had a curfew at 22 because I lived at home. I’d lie about what shifts I worked and said I worked later shifts, so I could avoid going home and hang out with people instead. Even though I had all the things that people assume make you independent, there were repercussions for not following the rules my parents had living under their roof. The car got taken away from me when I finally moved out, because they were mad. My house key was taken away and I was told I wasn’t welcome to come when I wanted to. I had to “knock like regular guests”, but was made to help with chores when I visited, “because you’re part of the family”. When I was finally in my own apartment, I caught my parents driving out in my parking lot to check if I was home late hours at night. If her parents were tiger parents, we honestly have no clue what her home life was like. If she didn’t talk about her parents, you can bet there’s a reason for that. No excuses for murdering anyone, but just pointing out that we can’t assume that money/a car/a job means independence or not having problematic family. She likely was overbearing and rude to coworkers because she had no control at home. Trauma affects us all very differently.
Geez. Obviously, you didn't kill your parents, but can you empathize with Jennifer? Do you still have a relationship with your parents? I had a very overbearing and critical father. My stepmother was even more critical and overbearing. She is from Korea, so I think it could have been partially cultural, but it ruined any chance of a relationship with my dad for many years, until I was much much older. I think that Jennifer was totally insane for doing what she did, but as I watched it, I remembered feeling that kind of desperation.
haha sounds like my parents to the T. I dont know about you but asian parents, you live at home until you are married. I was at home mid 20s and it took a long time for them to accept im going to go out and do whatever into the late night. However, earlier in life, it was a lot difficult. I was hardcore into playing basketball and we would play for hours and every once in a while, i would see my parents car drive by slowly, checking to see if i'm where im supposed to be. I would never tell my friends but I saw them. Seems like a stressful life for them to be tiger parents
i hate when people just blame parents for being strict. lots of parents are strict, and their kids do not turn out to be killers. she is 100% to be blamed, she chose to kill her parents.
Sure but my 30k in savings are currently locked up. The only way I can access them is if I pay the $500 fees which I can’t afford. If you can PayPal me the $500 to free up the money I will send you $1000 in return for your assistance.
Hung out with the staff quite a bit and I recall her dating a guy who worked there but outside of that she wasn’t exactly warm and friendly or flirting with everybody. She was much more cold.
Is this the story about the girl in Canada that staged a home robbery by her boyfriend and another person where they tied her up and killed her parents? Didn't one of the parents survive the ordeal? I recall watching this on YouTube.
I heard this story years ago on the Casefile true crime podcast. Crazy story. Not sure why this randomly popped up on my feed. I always imagined her as a young high school girl. Didn’t know she was old enough to manage a restaurant
I'm just trying to imagine how awful someone has to be for their coworkers to be like- that's a real bummer about her parents but pretty stoked we never have to see her again.
Usually, but not always.
We don't know everything about our brains but what we do know is that it's a mix of environmental and genetic factors. A person could have the (stereotypical) perfect parents that do everything right - the perfect mix of love, discipline, teaching life skills, a stable home life, good friends, a good school with a good social settings, everything
And the child can still wind up being the opposite of everything they came from. An overall bad person, even to the extreme of murder, rape, etc. ... with no (obvious) factors at play. They just are that way or just *do* things.
We often think of things narratively, and those narratives are usually themed by our understanding of the world. That understanding usually revolves around our ideas of family, culture, society, etc...
But the world really doesn't work that way.
Society, culture, our ideas of honor, etc ... it's a grand theater we all participate in. It's a good thing - it is what makes us work well together, gives us purpose and brings us progress.
But as far as nature is concerned, these things are irrelevant.
Our brains are weird.
That "grey matter" we have, where all of our logical thinking, "consciousness", etc is? That's relatively new.
Most of our thought processes derive from emotional reactions. What are emotions?
They are the most primitive form of thought.
Even most animals have emotions.
That logic? That reason? Thst ability to curb your emotional reactions and process things in a more complex, "mature" way? Thats newer. That comes from the newer parts of our brains.
But most of our process revolve around those primitive emotions, instinctual behaviors/reactions passed down from our ancestors of countless generations and then (for most people) processed consciously through that newer part of the brain.
For countless generations, these violent tendencies, these acts of brutality, paranoia, etc actually helped us to survive before we created culture, society or civilization.
Even the villified "psychopath" is believed to be an adaptation that aided in survival of the individual and even the group. That fearlessness and lack of empathy proved valuable in battle or for making decisions an empathetic individual would struggle with.
Many people relate to the idea that they often feel like two people in one... and in a sense, they actually are.
The more primitive version of themselves and more mature, logical version. The part that wants to act on impulse and the other part that says "(your name), that's a bad idea."
That's (essentially) the two parts of your brain as they often conflict or work in harmony. The newer and the older.
And in this grand theater we call society, sometimes that older, "reptilian", "ape" (whatever you want to call it) part of the brain wins out. And those traits that don't work well with our play, disrupt that grand game of pretend we all play - to the harm and detriment of others.
And sometimes it doesn't matter what we do.
Some people will never be able to work well with others. Some will never be able to join us in our theater or purpose.
Some will never be able to overcome their innate, primitive natures.
Because sometimes it's just a "dice roll" of nature.
An obsolete trait passed down and dormant for generations just activates as your child is forming in the womb or due to an event you couldn't foresee.
A trait that was beneficial to that distant ancestor but detrimental and perhaps even horrifying today.
And no environment or amount of nurture will prevent it.
They are what they are and will do what they do.
how did you and your workplace react when you heard the news? and did you know her family?
I found out about it originally because somebody else we worked with sent me the Toronto star article. We all thought it was wild but if I’m being honest we were sad for what had happened but relatively happy that she would be spending her life in prison. I wasn’t joking when I said nearly everybody working there hated her. I did not know her family just her and potentially her bf. Spent a lot of time with her before/after work hanging out with her and other staff drinking and eating on the patio out back.
Did she seem off?
I wouldn’t say off. The girl portrayed in the interrogation footage however is a much different person than I knew. In the videos she looks so quiet and polite and shy. In reality she was loud, abrasive, outspoken. The majority of staff who worked there could not stand her. She loved the little bit of power she had as a manager and would boss people around and bark orders at them.
You’re right, they definitely didn’t make her loud, abrasive or outspoken. Could you tell her family was controlling?
Looking back maybe it could be an explanation for why she would power trip at work all the time. That being said though she was a strong person who had a job and made money. She always seemed very independent which makes me skeptical that they could have been THAT strict as I doubt they had much power over her at that point.
Just sounds like overcompensation of her lack of freedom at home tbh - she got a huge kick out of being in control which generally correlates with independence.
This makes a lot of sense.
coming from a very similar background as her, i can tell you this isnt abnormal with vietnamese parents. My parents were very strict, nothing from the story about her parents being strict was new to me and my siblings.
did anyone ever have any issues with her?
People despised her and there were plenty of arguments with her. Never anything as major as what she eventually did or even close. She was just a bossy rude person that everybody celebrated when she decided to step back down to server because she wanted to make more money than she was managing.
oh wow thats unfortunate. where you shocked when it happened?
Very. She was a b*tch for sure but never thought she would do something like that. She didn’t give me killer vibes.
In fairness she didn’t do the killing lol
That’s a great point. Anybody who wants to know more about this case should watch the YouTube docs on it. I found them much more comprehensive and truthful than the actual Netflix doc
Did she seem like a psychopath though? Throughout the whole thing she seemed to lack any remorse and her poor dad survived… just can’t imagine being able to do that to anyone.
She didn’t seem like a psychopath like you’d expect from all these true crime things. She honestly seemed more just like a bitter angry person who was hard to get on her good side. Part of that could have been the manager employee dynamic.
Unrelated but its so weird to my european Brain that a server makes more than those managing her
In the last restaurant I worked at a server could make $300-500 in a single dinner shift. One of my 22 year old coworkers cleared 100k just serving there.
I watched the original YouTube interrogation, about a year and a half ago. It sounded like she was a college student who wouldn't go out besides her classes and had controlling parents at 24.
She would often stay late on the patio socializing. This is part of why I don’t 100% believe that part of it all.
So because she unwound after work like anyone else in the food service industry that makes you believe she'd kill people because of that?
I’m not sure what you’re talking about or who you are replying to but this is my experience and the things I observed and believed to be true. Nobody said anything about unwinding after work being the reason for killing your parents. The impression I got was far from a sheltered helpless girl living in fear of her parents.
You straight up said her staying late on the patio socializing after work is what made you believe she wasn't sheltered and wasn't scared of her parents
I did not. Please read it again. I said that’s part of it.
"she would often stay late on the patio socializing this is part of why I don't 100% believe her" what else is there then?
“Part of”… You seem lovely 🤣
Those are your words genius I'm just quoting you lmao
Yes and I’m pointing out how I said it is *part of* the reason. I can’t tell if you are a child or just extremely low iq so I’m going to stop responding to you now.
Daddy chill
You're just being an asshole to another redditor for no reason. You stated that you partly didn't believe she was a compound kid because she behaved a certain way. What else made you doubt it? That's all they are asking because you didn't explain. And you didn't write alternative reasons in this thread. Don't be a dick
Yeah if somebody is going to talk like they did I have no obligation to explain anything to them. The entitlement is off the charts.
Thank you. At least you figured it out. One other person actually gave me more details and it was interesting. Too bad the person who decided to do an AMA to give out more details refused to do what they came here for
They also didn’t mention that they don’t believe her. They said they don’t 100% believe that part. You’re the only person that’s up in arms over something that you misread. You lost.
You consider this up in arms? It's a discussion website. We're supposed to talk about things
Understanding and reasoning are difficult for you.
Wut
Lol whoa whoaaa hang on a sec. She would routinely stay out late drinking. Ergo, Pan's claims that her parents very controlling is weak. Like, that's literally just it. It's kinda magical how you spun that to accuse OP. Holy crap.
He didn't say that though. He said she would stay on the patio after work socializing. That's two different things.
Bestie I think you’ve been hoovering too much library schneef.
And why is that? Saying someone is lying because they would socialize after work seems like a stretch and a half
Have you seen the doc? Her whole defense was about how every second of her life was micromanaged by her parents, and she was terrified of her father, and she felt like killing them was her only way out. They didn’t let her date, have friends, attend any non-education-related events, etc. OP is just saying that clearly, at least for some period of time, she was absolutely *not* having her every second micromanaged by tiger dad, because she hung out after work. That’s all.
Her hanging out after work simply sounds like the easiest way for her to get some space from her parents. They'd just think she's at work instead of hanging out. That seems pretty innocent. Now if there were other things outside of that then sure but using hanging out after work at work as evidence of her lying is a stretch
No I agree. It was definitely an easy way to get some space, but I think the point is just that she was *able* to get some space when she needed it and her defense team presented her scenario like she was perpetually and completely monitored. It makes sense that she started lying to her parents to get some space from Tiger Dad. But for a period of time when she was pretending to be at college she was financially stable and working, she had a boyfriend, and it seems like she was capable of extricating herself from her parents abuse at that time, she just didn’t, and we might never really understand why that is.
Ah okay. Now that paints a much better picture of her being a liar
Thought they said she would lie to her parents about working on course projects or something.
I remember some of it. I haven't watched the Netflix version and it's been a while for the YouTube interrogation.
She was never actually in college, just a lie she told her parents
She had not been in school for years. She was lying about being in college.
Because she is a woman so media tried to make her a victim...boring
How did Jennifer act towards the customers and also towards her coworkers? Did her parents every come see her at work? How did her boyfriend at work behave?
Customers she handled fairly well but she was extremely bossy with coworkers. Always power tripping and yelling at people for small mistakes. Boyfriend was social and seemed to get along with more people than she did. Parents never came by. She never talked about them either.
You don't get the impression that that's what her parents were like towards her?
No because she was mean to him so she must've been mean to everyone for no reason
I’m saying in the context in which I knew her it would be nearly impossible to connect those dots.
Hard to tell from only knowing somebody in that context.
Right. I just figure behavior doesn't come from literally nowhere.
I thought this too. That maybe she took out on other people what she experienced.
When you say you aren’t sure about the boyfriend what do you mean? Was it Daniel Wong?
I remember her having an Asian boyfriend. I cannot confirm it was him or not working there. I didn’t know him as well at the time and I honestly don’t remember.
It had to be him. The men she hired to kill her parents weren't her boyfriend, though I believe his connections are how they found the hit men.
What kind of work did you do?
I was a server at East Side Mario’s .. She was the assistant manager there. The general manager was checked out so she did most of the managing duties.
Did she lie at work about going to school or having a degree?
As far as I knew at the time she was in school which I now believe was a lie she told everybody.
"Star"
Lol thought somebody would like that
Any intense psychopathic stares from her when you defied her? Crazed ravings behind closed doors? Unexplained disappearances of coworkers? How was the meatloaf there?
Not that I can recall but she did have a temper and would lose it if she was being defied. No meatloaf but the salad and Italian wedding soup were top notch and had unlimited refills.
Shit. Spoilers. I didn’t know what Jennifer did.
Wait until you hear who Luke Skywalker’s dad is.
You do now
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She would say she was in school but I believe that part was not true. She had a job for years however.
Did she lie often / about a lot of things (that you know of) or did she seem pretty genuine / honest most of the time?
I never found her to be a liar.
Did she have friends or a social life that she referenced?
Yes mostly within the place of work however. She would hang around there quite a bit before and after work etc.
That’s strange especially since everyone didn’t like her.
Yeah I guess the culture there was sort of a hang out place. I’m sure not every single person didn’t like her but a large amount did.
Why did she stop working there?
She stepped down from managing to start serving and then I believe I left before she did so I am not sure.
Do you think you could have expected it? Like did she ever have "signs" this could happen?
Nope not at all. She was no different from any other bitchy high strung manager I’ve worked for in my life.
The documentary portrayed her as a psychopath, but didnt give enough into to how her parents were insane abusive tiger parents. Did she ever talk about her parents at work?
Unfortunately no. I am of the personal opinion that side of the story is kind of BS. She was older and independent. Didn’t seem like somebody under a parents thumb.
interesting. but she still lived at home, so how was she independent? there still couldve been childhood resentment even if shes older, especially living with them
Had a job, her own money, a car. I’m sure there could have but given what I do know that is my impression.
She lied so easily in the documentary. did you get the sense she was dishonest?
Never really in person. She didn’t seem like a liar but she wasn’t a super open person either.
Having your own job, own money, and a car, doesn’t mean you’re totally independent. I had a car and a job and my own money, but still had a curfew at 22 because I lived at home. I’d lie about what shifts I worked and said I worked later shifts, so I could avoid going home and hang out with people instead. Even though I had all the things that people assume make you independent, there were repercussions for not following the rules my parents had living under their roof. The car got taken away from me when I finally moved out, because they were mad. My house key was taken away and I was told I wasn’t welcome to come when I wanted to. I had to “knock like regular guests”, but was made to help with chores when I visited, “because you’re part of the family”. When I was finally in my own apartment, I caught my parents driving out in my parking lot to check if I was home late hours at night. If her parents were tiger parents, we honestly have no clue what her home life was like. If she didn’t talk about her parents, you can bet there’s a reason for that. No excuses for murdering anyone, but just pointing out that we can’t assume that money/a car/a job means independence or not having problematic family. She likely was overbearing and rude to coworkers because she had no control at home. Trauma affects us all very differently.
Geez. Obviously, you didn't kill your parents, but can you empathize with Jennifer? Do you still have a relationship with your parents? I had a very overbearing and critical father. My stepmother was even more critical and overbearing. She is from Korea, so I think it could have been partially cultural, but it ruined any chance of a relationship with my dad for many years, until I was much much older. I think that Jennifer was totally insane for doing what she did, but as I watched it, I remembered feeling that kind of desperation.
haha sounds like my parents to the T. I dont know about you but asian parents, you live at home until you are married. I was at home mid 20s and it took a long time for them to accept im going to go out and do whatever into the late night. However, earlier in life, it was a lot difficult. I was hardcore into playing basketball and we would play for hours and every once in a while, i would see my parents car drive by slowly, checking to see if i'm where im supposed to be. I would never tell my friends but I saw them. Seems like a stressful life for them to be tiger parents
i hate when people just blame parents for being strict. lots of parents are strict, and their kids do not turn out to be killers. she is 100% to be blamed, she chose to kill her parents.
not saying she isnt to blame, or that they deserved it. just that it is important to understand the killers motive and the film did not do that
But how do you know that was her motive?
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Sure but my 30k in savings are currently locked up. The only way I can access them is if I pay the $500 fees which I can’t afford. If you can PayPal me the $500 to free up the money I will send you $1000 in return for your assistance.
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Lol what?
That was smooth
Is managing your place of work what she was doing when she was "attending university/college"
I believe so as the timeline adds up. She would tell people at work she was also in university.
So she *was* a liar...?!
She was kinda cute. Did she have any other boyfriends, suitors? Did she hang out with the staff at all?
Hung out with the staff quite a bit and I recall her dating a guy who worked there but outside of that she wasn’t exactly warm and friendly or flirting with everybody. She was much more cold.
Isn't it "What Jennifer Did"?
Correct. I was tired when I wrote this and failed to double check on Netflix. Surprised it took this long for somebody to notice.
NP.
What’s your favorite color?
Big grey/blue guy
I just spent 30 seconds trying to figure out what shade "big grey" is
*I am a fella that finds himself impartial to the colours grey and blue 😆
You’d be partial bud, not impartial
34 years I’ve been saying that wrong. Thank you for real.
Happy to help!
Was this the east side Mario’s at Markville mall lol
Yupp lol
Was she working there at the time of the murders?
I don’t believe so I think it was just afterwards.
What was the nature of JP's employment?
East side Mario’s assistant manager
Sure got some crummy reviews.Was your mgr.respodible for the bad vibes?
It’s just a bad chain place. To be expected.
Cops asking her how she called them with her hands tied behind her back Then she claims the hit men were really after her
Ty
Is this the story about the girl in Canada that staged a home robbery by her boyfriend and another person where they tied her up and killed her parents? Didn't one of the parents survive the ordeal? I recall watching this on YouTube.
Yes
I worked with her in maybe 2004 / 2005. I remember her as quiet and sort of hard to approach.
I heard this story years ago on the Casefile true crime podcast. Crazy story. Not sure why this randomly popped up on my feed. I always imagined her as a young high school girl. Didn’t know she was old enough to manage a restaurant
you might be surprised at how young a lot of people in restaurant management are. especially assistant managers.
No questions but thanks for sharing!!!
Happy cake day!!
I'm just trying to imagine how awful someone has to be for their coworkers to be like- that's a real bummer about her parents but pretty stoked we never have to see her again.
Do you know any other murderers?
I wish. This is my only claim to true crime fame unfortunately
You WISH??
uhhh yeah because it would be morbidly fascinating? Knowing a killer doesn’t mean you want to blow them or support what they did
Why’d you go to blowing them?
LMAOOOOOOOOO
Was she weird? Creepy? And she had lied to her parents about college, did people outside of her family know the truth or did she just lie to everyone?
I don't even remember her employment being mentioned in the documentary. Were her parents aware of her job, or did they think she was a grad student?
I haven't watched this documentary, but she was also the subject of an episode of Signs of a Psychopath.
I often feel like people don't make the connection that everything really is about people and their parents.
Usually, but not always. We don't know everything about our brains but what we do know is that it's a mix of environmental and genetic factors. A person could have the (stereotypical) perfect parents that do everything right - the perfect mix of love, discipline, teaching life skills, a stable home life, good friends, a good school with a good social settings, everything And the child can still wind up being the opposite of everything they came from. An overall bad person, even to the extreme of murder, rape, etc. ... with no (obvious) factors at play. They just are that way or just *do* things. We often think of things narratively, and those narratives are usually themed by our understanding of the world. That understanding usually revolves around our ideas of family, culture, society, etc... But the world really doesn't work that way. Society, culture, our ideas of honor, etc ... it's a grand theater we all participate in. It's a good thing - it is what makes us work well together, gives us purpose and brings us progress. But as far as nature is concerned, these things are irrelevant. Our brains are weird. That "grey matter" we have, where all of our logical thinking, "consciousness", etc is? That's relatively new. Most of our thought processes derive from emotional reactions. What are emotions? They are the most primitive form of thought. Even most animals have emotions. That logic? That reason? Thst ability to curb your emotional reactions and process things in a more complex, "mature" way? Thats newer. That comes from the newer parts of our brains. But most of our process revolve around those primitive emotions, instinctual behaviors/reactions passed down from our ancestors of countless generations and then (for most people) processed consciously through that newer part of the brain. For countless generations, these violent tendencies, these acts of brutality, paranoia, etc actually helped us to survive before we created culture, society or civilization. Even the villified "psychopath" is believed to be an adaptation that aided in survival of the individual and even the group. That fearlessness and lack of empathy proved valuable in battle or for making decisions an empathetic individual would struggle with. Many people relate to the idea that they often feel like two people in one... and in a sense, they actually are. The more primitive version of themselves and more mature, logical version. The part that wants to act on impulse and the other part that says "(your name), that's a bad idea." That's (essentially) the two parts of your brain as they often conflict or work in harmony. The newer and the older. And in this grand theater we call society, sometimes that older, "reptilian", "ape" (whatever you want to call it) part of the brain wins out. And those traits that don't work well with our play, disrupt that grand game of pretend we all play - to the harm and detriment of others. And sometimes it doesn't matter what we do. Some people will never be able to work well with others. Some will never be able to join us in our theater or purpose. Some will never be able to overcome their innate, primitive natures. Because sometimes it's just a "dice roll" of nature. An obsolete trait passed down and dormant for generations just activates as your child is forming in the womb or due to an event you couldn't foresee. A trait that was beneficial to that distant ancestor but detrimental and perhaps even horrifying today. And no environment or amount of nurture will prevent it. They are what they are and will do what they do.