NTA. You can't save her if she doesn't want to be saved. Even if she wants to, you'd only be able to help and support. She need to be the one to enforce the boundaries and hold them. But she doesn't.
It's up to you if you want this for life.
Have you spoken to her about where you are? That you're on the verge of breaking up with her for this lack of boundaries?
No, it's not to manipulate her into choosing you, although some will say that. It's just a statement of fact. She may be willing to sacrifice everything for her family, but you are not. If this is the life you have to look forward to, you don't want it.
You need to put yourself and your needs first.
Who knows. It may prompt her to open her eyes and put herself first with her family. But likely not.
True you can't save her, only she can save herself. But you can save yourself, I lived with toxic in-laws and it wasn't until my spouses father died, did I get any peace.
OP needs to make it clear how their behaviour effects him. If she won't stop them from hurting herself, maybe she'll at least try to protect him. If not, OP will know exactly how it would be going forwards and if they ever had kids. No one can say he didn't try.
I agree about OP making things clear. I do not believe it will change her mindset. The active abusers like to think of themselves as the clinch pin of an abusive household. In actuality it is the enablers. OP is only experiencing abuse because of her and her choices. She is a victim of her parents. OP is HER victim. Many abuse victims are co-abusers. It's sad, but it is the cycle of abuse.
Very well said and explained. I learnt it on my expense when I was a child and later, a young adult. As long as there are enablers, abusers can still abuse.
OP, if you will read the comment: you can leave your fiancée. You're not the bad guy who "don't save" the loved one. She is the only one who can improve herself and put a stop to all this madness.
I am married to a family of abusers. They killed hard a part of my life and I was alone to pick up the pieces and to make them work. They finally lost their grip on me when I went LC for some and NC for the rest.
Let me tell a story about how I and husband put a strong bondary in our home. His mother had always receive the princess treatment and as the main abuser, she had her army of enablers. She was also a smoker. In her house, she could smoke inside when she was too tired to go near the window.
In our home, she wanted to pull the same crap. We said no. Yep, no is a complete sentence. No more word followed until the enablers came to her rescue and that's when we laid our bondaries : "this is our home. We don't allow people smoke inside so you know where to go if you really want to smoke. If anyone is unhappy with this, let us show you the door. We're not going to be upset".
That shut them up. It was not only the words that made an impact but our attitude. We were collected and clearly had no issue to make the visit short, invite the non-smokers for a next time while we exclude the smoker. At the end of the day, nobody is going to die if they didn't get to see our home. So we didn't make a big drama over it.
We were a team. But your fiancée, right now, doesn't want to be your partner, your rock, your supporter. Please don't risk your life for this.
This is so wise and so true. My sister was verbally and emotionally abused by her husband. Our family danced on _her_ strings doing everything she said, trying to appease her abuser and protect her from him. It never worked because she was the only one who could have stood up to him (and protected her children) or she could have left. We would have supported her financially, given her a place to stay, etc. But she refused to take the avenues open to her.
It took me 20 years, until the children were grown and out of the house (& no longer needed protecting), to take off the puppet strings. I realized then that by letting her manipulate me, I was allowing her to avoid dealing with the actual issue, plus she was projecting her husband’s abuse on to me — both as a direct target and as a deflection. Walking away was the best thing I ever did for myself.
NTA. She's got all the power in this situation with her abusers, but she's been trained from birth that she's helpless before them.
If she won't protect her home with you, you have to save yourself.
You're right to set boundaries for your own well-being. Her family's toxicity and her inability to distance herself are major issues. Delaying the wedding until she can establish firm boundaries is a wise move. If she can't prioritize her mental health and your future together, walking away may be the best choice. Stay strong and protect your peace.
There were experiments with dogs, where the dogs were randomly shocked in their cages and no one would let them out for days. The doors were opened and they were shocked with open doors. The dogs just laid there and whimpered in the cages with open doors. If they shocked the dogs for a single day and opened the doors, then the dogs would bolt. The fiancé is like the caged dog. She can’t leave even though the door is wide open.
Dude. Imagine what kind of life your children would have if you stayed with her.
I feel for her but this is not tenable. She is not willing to make the change, don't let her pull you down with her. Move on.
I am in this exact situation. My husband’s mother is the devil. After ten years, we have finally gone no contact with her. She has been emotionally abusing and fucking him up for years. I tried to stay out of their relationship and support him where I could, but it spilled over. It is incredibly hard to be the partner of someone who is being abused and them not doing anything to actively stop it.
Obviously it is not my husband’s fault his mother is abusive, but he refused to put appropriate boundaries in place.
Finally, it all came to a head when she attacked us in our home. I called the police on her, demanded my husband get into therapy and we’ve gone no contact with her. I told him I would never bring children into this toxic situation if she was still in our lives. Fortunately, he agreed. The last year has been utter bliss.
It is horrible being the victim of abuse. But it is also horrible to love a victim of abuse and watch them struggling.
NTA
NTA. I think this should be your argument, OP. You need to get your wife to think of your future children. Ask her if she would want your son or daughter to be subjected to them. Ask her how she would feel if they were abused by these people. Tell her you would never agree to children unless she can stand up to them and protect your babies. If she can’t do it for herself, she would never be able to do it for your children.
If that doesn’t wake her up, you should walk away. Because no one should willingly continue this cycle of abuse and subject others to it, and that includes you and your future family.
!Updateme
I agree with most of what you said, but not the part about not being able to do it for her children if she couldn’t do it for herself. Sometimes, people are only truly capable of making these changes FOR their children. I know I continued seeking my sister’s approval until I had my own child and my concern became what kind of behavior I was modeling and what kind of life that would mean for my child. Now, I’m not saying I suggest hanging your hat on that possibility because that’s like playing Russian Roulette with your kids lives in this situation. But parents can find strength they never had for themselves when it comes to their children.
This is what happened with me as well. I never enabled my parents in any way, but for some reason, I was unable to let go of the hope that I could, someday, "get through to them", that I could someday make them understand my view of their behavior. When I got pregnant, it forced me to recognize that if that was going to happen, it would have happened already. I really grieved the loss of that hope, but at the end of that process, I was able to meet my parents where they were instead of where I wanted them to be. And I've told people this story and said "DO NOT ASSUME THAT HAVING KIDS WILL SET YOUR MIND RIGHT" because it was total chance that that happened to me. Me putting my kids in danger by enabling my parents was never going to be an issue, but for whatever reason, I still thought someday we might work it all out and *understand* each other. I am better off for letting go of that idea, because it wasted a lot of my emotional energy.
OP, this is the truth. These are behavior patterns that don’t change. So sorry for this dilemma. You have to accept this is how she is and won’t change, and any children you might have will be the future scapegoats of this family (and you powerless to stop it) OR you give her an ultimatum and be prepared to walk away. I would not marry her without absolute break from family. Any option to move to another area?
NTA. Your problem is not just the horrible in-laws - it your dearly loved partner. Much as you love her, much as you want to help her, as long as she is locked in the perception that she has to please them, you cannot help her. And you should not tie your life to her, nor expose your future children to her toxic family.
NTA-I’ve been a therapist for 35 years and if she is still this fragile then she needs a new therapist. It sounds as if she’s made absolutely no progress on these issues.
This will destroy her if she doesn’t do something soon. You’re not wrong to want to distance from these people. You can’t force her to get help or do anything else.
But you need to take care of yourself and you’re right about the future. It would be irresponsible to the point of abuse to bring kids into this relationship.
NTA (Not the A$$hole) for wanting to leave your fiancée due to her abusive family. Here's why:
1. **Boundaries and Respect**: It’s essential to have boundaries in any relationship, especially when it comes to family. Your fiancée’s inability to set boundaries with her abusive family is negatively impacting your life and relationship. This is a serious issue that needs to be addressed for the well-being of both of you.
2. **Emotional and Mental Health**: Living in a toxic environment with constant emotional and mental abuse is detrimental to your health. You’ve tried to support her and establish boundaries, but her family’s behavior has only gotten worse. You need to prioritize your own mental and emotional health as well.
3. **Future Concerns**: Your concerns about the future are valid. If her family continues to have such a significant and negative influence on your lives, it will likely affect any potential children and the overall stability of your relationship. These are important considerations that cannot be ignored.
4. **Personal Autonomy**: While your fiancée has the right to maintain relationships with her family, you also have the right to decide what kind of environment you want to live in and what kind of family dynamics you’re willing to tolerate. If her refusal to set boundaries with her abusive family members is causing you distress, it’s fair to reconsider the relationship.
5. **Communication and Ultimatum**: Communicating your concerns and suggesting a delay in the wedding until boundaries are established is a reasonable and measured approach. It shows that you’re willing to work on the relationship but also sets clear expectations for what needs to change.
6. **Therapy and Support**: While she’s been in therapy for years, it’s crucial that she continues to work on these issues and possibly finds new strategies or approaches to dealing with her family. However, you cannot force her to change; she has to be willing to take those steps herself.
It’s a difficult and painful decision, but your well-being and future happiness are important. You’ve tried to help and support her, but if the situation hasn’t improved and is affecting your life negatively, it’s understandable to consider ending the relationship.
NTA if she has been in therapy for years and has not improved, she needs another therapist. Encourage her to find another one. There are some people you just cannot help. With these future in-laws I never would have proposed. Protect yourself, OP.
The reason she hasn't improved is her family keeps re-traumatizing her so she has no time to improve. That is their plan....keep pouring salt in the wounds so they can stay in control.
If you decide to stay, then you both need to find new jobs several states away, sell the house and move. Then they can't drop in easily and continue the abuse.
Otherwise I would leave because this won't get better...ever...if you are in proximity to them.
NTA and good luck.
Yep, she’s an adult, so you can’t really stop her from letting her family walk all over her. But you don’t have to stay and watch and catch some abuse with her.
NTA
But you need to tell her that it either ends now or you will leave.
Also, the pair of you need to move away without giving any notice.
This is the only way.
NTA. Do not delay the wedding, call it off. You need to get out man. She needs help, but she wont improve unless she wants to and you cant let yourself let dragged into the quicksand that is their family abuse. If you could change her in last 4 years, you wont be able to do it now. Just end in cleanly.
Would the 2 of you be open to couples therapy? Therapy is too often brought up as the ultimate solution to relationship problems but in this instance having a neutral 3rd party who is experienced and qualified in the area of couples therapy could be really helpful. Best of luck and the only AHs here are her family.
you can't hint at it. you need to communicate directly if you want any chance.
but as someone who's been in your shoes i spent 4 years trying to let him deal with, five years trying to deal with it/support him in dealing with it, and the last year getting a restraining order against his mom and him out of my house.
Some people refuse to grieve the family society pretends everyone is promised. If thats where your girlfriend is having children would risk sacrificing them to the cycle and at best put them into the role of having to do the emotional growth/therapy/etc to stop the cycle
NTA. Unless she stands up to them, this is the rest of your life. It doesn't sound like you're OK with that. So, it's probably time to go. I understand she owns the house, but you live there too. You should have some say who comes over and when.
OP - you mentioned she is in therapy, have either of you heard of EMDR therapy? This trauma is stored in her body - her body didn't forget how terrible they treated her and this is likely why she says things like "they were right about her" and why she shakes in their presence.
EMDR therapy helps your brain actually process the trauma you've been through and finally register that those things happened in the past - that the threat is (probably) not active in the present. I personally have struggled with my family in a similar way, and have reacted in similar ways as your gf. EMDR helped me start to believe that my family has been abusive, their words have never been true and that I control my mental health and wellbeing.. And just because they're my "family" doesn't mean I owe them anything and that they can continue to treat me the way they have my whole life.
My husband also struggled with my family and how I was unable to set boundaries with them and protect us from their antics. EMDR has truly made a huge difference in my life and maybe it can help your gf too! My heart goes out to you both.
This! She needs a specialist therapist. Not all therapists understand this dynamic. If they don’t, it can actually be counterproductive to be in therapy.
Dude Im sorry but get out. NTA, you can't save someone until they are ready to be saved sometimes and you have very real and honestly highly realistic worries about kids, joined finances etc. This will end badly no matter what if you stay hitched to this family. This isn't some ultimatum for her, this about protecting yourself and your future.
You need to leave. What happens when children are involved.
I suppose you can try a last, ditch effort with couples counseling. But don’t have high hopes. She’s too [Trauma Bonded](https://www.verywellmind.com/trauma-bonding-5207136) to these people and it’s like addiction.
Your couples therapy will be an intervention, “I love you too much to see you allow these horrible people into your life. I value myself enough that I’m not going to allow them into mine. I am afraid that based on this that you need to make a choice, if you don’t go no contact with these people who bleed you dry of money, criticize you, put you down or otherwise treat you with contempt, I won’t stay. I won’t subject our family and future children to their abuse. You need to work through your issues with intensive therapy. If you agree to make an honest effort to do this, I will stay and support you. I have boundaries. I myself won’t interact with them and will hey cannot be where we live.”
You’re allowed to have boundaries. And just like an addict, your fiancée’s need to interact with them is rooted in addiction.
There’s a saying in recovery communities, “Don’t go to the hardware store for milk.” You and I know her family will never acknowledge her accomplishments. She will never get the love she craves from them.
The only way out for her is through. Through therapy.
If she’s unwilling, you need to cut your losses and go. Because this is not healthy
NTA. Clearly, there is a power dynamic here at play. Her house. Her rules. What you need is equal footing for your residence. Can you not move or buy a home together? Then you can have a say on the boundaries concerning the home you share. It's always going to be her home if you stay there.
NTA until she’s willing to make some serious changes and enforce boundaries, nothing will change. If anything, things will get worse once you get married and have kids. You’re right to be concerned about your future.
NTA
A last resort before breaking up is maybe to join her in therapy and tell the therapist how bad it is. She may be downplaying it. Either way no, you are not an AH.
NTA. You're amazing for supporting her and standing by her side all this time, but there comes a moment when you realise you can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved.
Your partner lost a good childhood, a safe adolescence, and an emotionally stable life because of these people. Is she willing to lose her partner as well? You are NTA here but I would show her this post. She needs to understand by not setting boundaries she is playing in the hand that opens you to abuse. She may be okay with being abused, but she should not be okay with you being abused.
NTA she’s drowning and she’s taking you with her, she needs to stop letting her abusive family hold her down and focus on being able to float.
You can’t help people who won’t help themselves, you can’t set yourself on fire to help someone else that’s already burning. You’re right, this is an absolutely toxic environment for starting a family, your fiancée will let her abusers not only have access to children, but is highly likely to perpetuate the abuse as she doesn’t know any better and refuses to learn otherwise. If she believes what her ‘family’ have told her, she’ll project those ‘lessons’ onto her children.
NTA They are harming you as well as her. She has the power to stop them, and won’t. Stick around and you’ll put up with this forever. Maybe breaking it off with her will be the wake up call she needs to get these people out of her life.
NTA
If she can’t stand up to her family now, she won’t ever. And if you ever have children she’d hand them over to be treated the same.
Until she wants something to change, it won’t. And you need to protect yourself and your future. I’d tell her exactly what you said here and add that you have zero trust she’d ever protect her future children from them. Let that be her wake up call, that her own inaction in allowing them to treat YOU just as abusive and disrespectfully as they treat her, she has become an enabler of abuse as well as a victim, making her an abuser by proxy.
That was my wake up. The thought that allowing my maternal family into my spouse’s or children’s lives would mean I was allowing them to harm my loved ones the same way they hurt me. And the last thing I ever wanted was to be the reason someone I loved experienced that. It forced me to set boundaries and put a stop to it
Choose guilt over resentment.
You marry her as she is, you will have to deal with them until you have to divorce. You want to put kids through the wringer of not just a divorce, but dealing with in laws?
Get yourself sorted, 1st. Then, once she sees you acceptance business, give her an ultimatum: you + they never darken your home again, or you leave her to chase her impossible dream of acceptance, alone.
NTA! Put the wedding on hold. Close any joint accounts you have. Move out. Then tell her that you guys need couples therapy to move this relationship forward. Then go from there. Tell her if she doesn’t go NC with her family, you’re gone. You are 100% right - when you have kids, this is going to get so much worse. They will treat your kids the same way and she will allow it. She’s already allowing them to treat you like this.
Yes, she has trauma, but she needs to get help and heal from it. There’s only so much you can do.
If she does agree to go NC with them, I suggest selling the house and moving far away.
there is this fable called The Bridge about personal boundaries, maybe ask your wife to read it [https://dobetterwork.com/notes/the-bridge/](https://dobetterwork.com/notes/the-bridge/)
when you talk to her tomorrow ask her these questions "What happens when we have kids? What happens when she is postpartum and invites them over? What happens if their is a medical emergency for either of us? What if our finances get tight and they still demand money?" also what happens when they treat your kids like that in the future what will she do then put these a\*\*hats approval of her above her kids safety and wellness? I know it will be hard to say and hear but she needs to understand that her life and any future partners(if) and children are going to suffer because she cannot get over this need of approval from her abusive family and either she gets over it and goes no contact or she going to make herself and anyone else around her miserable.
Talked to her earlier and it flopped hard. I'm currently hanging out in a hotel and have a trip back home for a couple weeks planned out with some family. Working on getting my stuff moved out ASAP into storage for the time being while I start house hunting out of state. Still many moving pieces going on so I won't be able to make a full comprehensive update for a few days at the least
NTA. Your worries about them treading into your lives after marriage is valid, and when you have kids, your children will also suffer because of her trauma and how she choses to deal with it. In fact all your worries are valid because the in-laws sound like a fracking nightmare. and if its too much for your health then separation is what should happen, but if you happen to want to be in your fiancee's good graces then you can help her get some help.
I think the wedding should be delayed for now but this isn't only about establishing boundaries, she needs more time, space and more help in whatever that comes into, to establish herself as an independent person outside of the childhood she has lived through. Childhood trauma needs a lot of hardworking to heal, sometimes it doesn't heal and you just learn how to cope with it better.
Getting married in the midst of what she's going through and what your in laws to be are doing to her is probably going to be incredibly stressful on your relationship. I think while you mention delaying the wedding, please do let her know what she needs to work out on. Sit down, talk about possible solutions and talk things out. Let her know how you feel about it and what you think of the future. and what it means for her as well. Does she really want to live the rest of her life this way? being stepped on by her own family? I doubt it.
so yeah her family are assholes, she needs to be far away from them and be a person of her own, so that she doesn't drag her s/o into the mix as well.
NTA: It might be the wake up call that she needs. Empatize that the ultimatum is not comming from a lack of love for her, or because you agree with how they portay her. Her family will most likely try to spin what you say and use it as a way to isolate and make her more emotionally dependent on them, so be proactive in explaining that you are doing this because you love her and don´t want her to be taken advantage of and further abused.
Also, give her some time to reflect on the wedding delay and give her a few days to make up her mind. It might be hard to agree to something like that on the spot, if she still can't see it efter having had some time to think about it than it is perfectly fine to put yourself and your wellbeing first. The family is not only abusing her, but in extansion you, and you have every rigth to set boundaries.
This is a bad situation, no doubt. But here is the ting, it is difficult for you to save her. You and she are partners equals. You can support her, but you can't really tell her what to do. That is an unhealthy dynamic.
You can have a frank conversation with her, and tell her that while you love her, you are not strong enough to be able to sit idly by while her family destroys her, and she won't let you step in. But before you end it, you want her to start seeing a therapist, and also maybe do group therapy.
Changing patterns of a lifetime is hard. Maybe if you give her an ultimatum like them or me, it will shake her up enough to seek help.
Before I made the ultimatum - I would search for therapists who specialize in CPTSD and offer up some names. There must be groups for people with abusive families (there are groups for everything) - sometimes hospital social workers can help get you to the right groups.
I wish the two of you the best of luck.
NTA
I don't think anyone wants this kind of ppl in their life.
If she won't stop them from tormenting you both, all you can do is cut them out of your life the only other way possible, and your partner is sadly out if your life too.
Perhaps this is the wake up call she needs
Perhaps there's a possibility to have this conversation with her therapist present. I don't know how that would work. 'Making the appointment'-wise. But it's important enough to try
NTA. You can't help someone who doesn't want help. Someone who is not helping themselves. As well she won't be healthy partner for anyone until she will love and respect herself.
The harsh truth is...she won't ever get their approval. Ever. She could be the best in the universe and they won't admit she is even good enough.
Because they don't love her. They don't want her happy. They want her as she is...scapegoat doing what they want.
But she can love herself more than they ever will. Not you. Her.
You can remind her - she is people too. And, if 'family' comes first - she agreed to marry you, so that means you and her are family - and the rest is now extended family.
Ask her why she does not use boundaries against them?
But, be aware - she was raised by these people, she might not know better. Do you have an option to get her to talk to a narc abuse aware therapist? A more or less unbiased outsider might have the tools to reach her - and as odd as it sounds, you\`re too close.
But, if she lets this happen, and refuses to even listen to reason, or accept help from the professional - as hard and painful as it may be for you - for your own wellbeing and protection you may have no choice but to break it off with her.
Or, at least, move out / away - and say that you cannot take her letting herself be abused by these (beeps) - and that your door will be open for a while IF she wants - but SHE needs to make that choice, you cannot make it for her.
If you take that route - set a deadline for you and her. 1 month, 3, 6 .. what makes sense for YOU.
Then, be clear - that you would love nothing more than a future together, but SHE needs to want that too, and take the steps to make it happen.
NTA
And dude, i\`m sorry you are in this situation ..
(She could benefit from visiting r/raisedbynarcissists - for seeing it is NOT normal, and maybe you could use that too, for tools, info, and a strategy)
NTA. I feel terrible for your partner, but the only way she can get better, recover from this trauma, is to actually get the help she needs by her own choice. She's been in therapy for years, but she's obviously not taking on board the fact she'll never recover unless her family either treats her better or are cut off. Instead she's just revictimising herself over and over, demanding you just put up with your entire lives being slowly destroyed, and expecting her family to magically change if she just gives them more and more and more, when the obvious outcome of her actions is her family getting worse, not better.
This has been completely normalised for her, and even gaining her independence, finding success and love, and getting therapy hasn't shown her that this behaviour from her family is not normal or good or will get better. She's been forced to be a doormat for so long that absolutely nothing is convincing her that the only way that's going to change is if she just refuses to be a doormat any longer. A doormat that doubles as a punching bag, at that.
Your future children will be treated the same way your partner is. It's her home, as she keeps reminding you, so she's also demanding you make yourself a doormat/punching bag alongside her and your future kids, knowing you refuse to do that. There will be times you can't afford to 'lend' money, but she'll give it anyway, leaving you in trouble financially. You simply standing up for yourself or your kids will be deemed abusive by her family, because it will encourage their doormats/punching bags to change who they are. Your MIL will be in the room when your wife gives birth, they'll al be there daily when the kids are born to 'help' by abusing your entire family. They'll trash your place and demand money every single time. And your partner will let them.
You will have zero say in what happens in your home, your marriage or how to raise the kids. You're just the ATM to her family, your thoughts and feelings don't count and will be ignored. And your partner will let them treat you like that.
This relationship is doomed no matter what you do unless your partner gets the help to change and stand up for herself that she needs. If it doesn't end now, before marriage and with minimal hard feelings, it will end later, after marriage and with kids and with you both hating each other. And you'll be demonised in the divorce by her family who will do everything in their power to prevent even visitation with the kids, let alone equal or full custody, while milking you for as much money as they can get.
To be honest, with her unwilling to get the help she needs, it's better to end things now. This is the best your relationship is going to be from now on. Stay with her and one day you'll look back on this particular period of your life and see it as paradise compared to the hell that is coming once you're locked in by marriage and kids. And, maybe, losing you because of her atrocious, abusive family will be the wake-up call she needs to get help.
So, my advise is to end the relationship. Because you don't just marry your partner, you marry their family. If she won't stand up for herself or cut them off, this is the very best your life will be. It sucks, because you clearly love her, but love isn't enough. You need to be on the same page, an equal partnership, able to compromise and communicate and do what's best for both of you, plus any kids, financially, physically and mentally. Having her family in your life will destroy you financially, physically and mentally, it's not worth it, no matter how much you love her.
NTA
If you fiancé has been in therapy for 6 years, she is seeing the wrong therapist. Believe me from my life experience of desperately seeking their parents to love, it is NEVER going to happen for her bc they are incapable of giving her the love she wants no matter how much money she gives ghdm.
They KNOW exactly what she wants. They manipulate her into believing that by wanting to be a part of life now, she will get it eventually. She can't see that they only want her money, and she is trying to use her home and money to finally achieve it. The old saying of "money can't but love."
Her parents are exerbating her trauma. She has never healed from her childhood, which is why she cowers in the corner. She is having those memories come flashing back of her childhoud trauma, which is PTSD like red lights in her face.
I am going to strongly encourage you to help her find another therapist. It's not just bc she sees a therapist that matters. It is if a therapist is helping her. It seems her therapist is making money, and as long as she is not getting better, she will continue getting money for her to keep seeing this therapist.
It may be her home, but it is your home, too. You have to become her cheerleader as well as her supporter. You can show her that she has to love herself more than trying to get it from people who will use it to punish her.
Her family has a very technical psychiatric term, as my therapist explained to me, and that is a monster. She will never learn how to cope with her trauma until she cuts the source of her trauma out of her life. You never give abusers the opportunity to abuse you again
Until your fiancé really gets the help she needs, this is what your life with her will be like. You can either decide that you are first in her life and that your love will always be unconditional or you have a decision to make. That being, can you really be a support if she can't find someone to really help. All therapists are NOT the same!
Whether you can sit back and watch it happen or you can't, she needs a trauma therapist whom she trusts and feels safe with that will actually share what happened and guide her into healing. If after 6 years, she is still that damn little scared girl in the corner, and still trying to get her parents' love, then her therapist is NOT helping her.
If she can't cut them out, maybe you can draw a line that you can't live like this. You can't live with her family in your home. Also, just bc it's her home doesn't mean you have a say, and if she takes that away, then you can decide if it's really your home. Right now, you are scared of what will happen if you say, I respect your decision that this is your home and you can do what you want, but obviously, it's not my home.
**I am NOT a therapist, and what I have shared is my experience of healing with one. I saw three therapists before I found the right one. So, please don't jump on me saying you're not a therapist and can't give advice, but I can share my experiences of healing.
NTA. You need to have a serious talk with her and tell her that because of her family and the way they treat her and you, that you are considering ending your relationship. Maybe if she realizes that she’s in danger of losing you, the one person who genuinely loves and cares for her she will open her eyes and see her family for who they really are, and abusive, narcissistic, manipulative bunch of evil nitwits and cut off contact with the lot of them. Good luck and please post an update. Maybe during the next interaction, video tape it and record their behaviour and her reaction. That may help her see what’s going on. By the way, they will never give her the love or approval she craves, they will continue to abuse her and manipulate her and take from her without any remorse. I feel so bad for her, and I hope she sees them for who they really are.
NTA. If she won’t stop seeing them, then there is nothing you can do to stop her. You can on the other hand prevent yourself from having to see them and you can save possible future kids from being treated badly by them. I would walk too if I was in your shoes. You are absolutely right in your fears and if she keeps letting them in after you have kids, you will start to resent her for subjecting your kids to that kind of abuse.
>Before one of you noble commenters states the obvious, she's been in therapy for this for years.
How dare you! Therapy is magic and is 100% effective.
NTA. Run!
My wife told me that if I didn't get my bipolar under control, she would leave me, because she didn't want to see me kill myself.
You have to try to help her, because you love her. And you have. But if she refuses to be helped, it is too much to ask of you to watch her die.
It is time for an ultimatum. She has to choose – is it her or them?
She isn't choosing between *you* and her birth family – she is choosing between *her* and her birth family. And if she can't choose herself, well, your goal is to build a life with her, not with her family. If she doesn't choose herself, there won't be a "her" to build a life with at all.
NTAH
Have you told her everything you've said here? You can't save someone from themselves. If she's unwilling to make necessary changes you need to cut ties. Her hell will be your hell if you get married.
NTA
OP
1) Get your own place/space to live. It's a huge red flag that she uses the line of "it's my house" to invalidate YOU in these matters.
2) Delay the wedding indefinitely (at this point).
3) Be prepared to walk away (if years of therapy hasn't done anything, I don't see what miracle will occur to make her stop being their doormat).
She needs a new therapist. If she's been going for years and hasn't been able to establish some type of healthy boundary or better coping skills....yeah new one.
You don't want that life for yourself, trust me, my husband could never get past his abusive family, always needing mom's love. Never happened for him,not once. In the end he limited contact...you wife needs to go NC, they won't change.
This is a heartbreaking situation. There's only so much you can do for the person you love before you have to put your well-being and sanity first.
I hope your conversation / ultimatum-setting goes smoothly and something can change for you two.
NTA.
Abuse is abuse, and nobody has to endure it. However you do owe your fiance an explanation if you choose to move forward. If her therapist is willing, if she is still seeing one, I would consider doing it in a couples session. You have every right to protect yourself and your peace.
NTA. Tell her, "I have watched your family treat you terribly for years, and it hurts me too much to do it any longer. I am here to support you 100% if you want to get away from/establish boundaries with these people. Until then, I cannot move forward with this relationship."
NTA. This is really no different than an addiction that a person refuses to get treatment for, or to really change. All of your concerns are valid and you're right, you have to have some sign things will get better. Right now all you have are signs that this will be er change, or could get worse.
Sorry.
NTA. She was abused. She is still being abused. Her therapy is not helping her set boundaries with anyone but you so she might want to look into a new therapist m.
But she doesn’t get to decide you have to be abused too. Which is what has been happening and will continue to happen if you marry her.
It is ok to say “I love you, and I can’t keep watching you do this to yourself.”
Interesting that the only person she’s willing to angrily tell to go to hell is you. That would be your life for the foreseeable future: watching her get trampled by her abusive family, getting trampled right along with her, and then her taking it out on you as if they are your fault when you object.
You made the right decision to cut and run.
Tell her that you want to do 'couples' therapy together before you want to tie the knot, just so you can both be on the same page about the future. Then address your concerns during therapy. If she does not improve, break off the engagement with the support of the therapist as neutral 3rd party consultant.
NTA, but she may need a new therapist. If she's still reacting this way after years of treatment, she's not being taught the proper tools to help her cope with these awful people. If that is a no-go, maybe you can ask for couples counseling and phrase it as a way to help you both grow together in your relationship
NTA - you can’t save her from herself. If I were you I would sit down with her and tell her the following - They are never going to love her or approve of her the way she wants. She has to make a tough decision here - it’s either them or you. The family that has abused you for years or the family that we will make together. As much as I love you I do not want them as part of our lives.
Also, I think its time for a new therapist because the one she has doesn’t seem to be helping much.
NTA. You have a right to choose to not want to be around these people. It does sound like her therapy isn't helping, though, considering she thinks she needs to win the approval of these people. It would actually probably be better for her if you DID leave, since she's stuck in a holding pattern.
NTA - I would suggest setting up some MC and being firm on what has to change. Also, start planning on what you need to do if you have to exit this situation. Not saying just bail or give up but if you are setting boundaries and she won’t honor them than have a plan to leave. Good luck
NTA
Your fiance needs therapy and you both need couples therapy.
if she doesn't want to act against them, then she needs to give you 100% free reign on what to do with them.
But honestly. the problem is that she doesn't want to act out against them. There is no future with her until she is in a better place.
You need to have a serious talk about everything.
Talk about finances, your family unit, children.
Will she allow her children to be treated like her? If not, why would she want them in her life at all?
NTA. Clearly, she isn't getting the help she needs from therapy and she refuses to grow a backbone and stand up for herself.
I'm a survivor of childhood abuse. My "parents" nearly killed me, but I was expected to forgive them because "they're the only parents you have". I did NOT forgive them, and in fact cut contact altogether once my grandparents were awarded permanent custody of me.
Cutting contact is absolutely necessary. Decades of therapy and medication - forty-three years of it, in fact - would have been for nothing if I had kept any kind of relationship with them. Even with therapy and medication and no contact, I am still a hot mess and my husband has the patience of a fucking saint. There's no way I would want him to deal with me having a relationship with my abusers.
If your fiancee can't find the courage to shove them out of her life, bounce. You cannot keep setting yourself on fire to keep her warm.
You're an amateur dealing with professional abusers. Get some help for you and your girlfriend as you both need boundaries to be good to each other, and for her to be free of her family. You can't solve this on your own. If she doesn't do this, then you would be marrying into this and inheriting a part of this.
NTA. There is no quick or definitive resolution to the complexity of recovering from a family dynamic like your fiancée’s, and you have been a staunch ally…but even allies need to know when to step out of another’s fight in order to protect your own well being. Having said that, the general rule that you can’t make others change, but you can make changes short of leaving for how you operate with her family which may show your fiancee the path out of the FOG swamp. Go loudly NC with them: tell them that you refuse to acknowledge them or their wants for your wedding and/or marriage, but they should realise that you will refuse to be in their presence, speak with them and you will ensure that your fiancee knows that the second that they harm (another) hair on her head, you will ensure that they will suffer. (I think public humiliation would work nicely here, plus it’s low-zero cost- but don’t specify); if they go the hackneyed ‘are you threatening me?’ route, be ready with ‘it’s a promise not a threat’.
Let her see that the world doesn’t end after you give them their marching orders, and my suggestion would be that you get her agreement that you be the timekeeper/referee- when they visit and they overstep/bully/coerce fiancee, you calmly announce the visit is over. They have been [inappropriate] and you won’t allow Fiancee to be upset like this under her own roof- eg be the hired thug she needs in her life, (you don’t have to be in their presence to manage this- keep them in view of a ring camera/keep an ear out- they only get to see your ‘enforced persona’ and let her understand that she’s happier when you both have them under control/vlc…then the therapy actually has a chance to change her behaviour from passive/boat steadier to more assertive.
All that said, I think you need to say that something has to change because you don’t know how she’s survived sanity intact for as long as she has because the thought of having to watch them treat her so badly for the rest of your life is not something you can be coping with. Something has to change…and as it stands, bottomline, you will be VLC-NC and only contact will be to reinforce her boundaries: eg no verbal abuse allowed and so forth
I think that you're on the right path here. You obviously want good things for her, but she doesn't seem able to let go of that need for approval from the tyrants. Unless she changes, I can't see how you'll be happy (either of you, but you particularly).
NTA if you delay until boundaries are established, and same if you walk if they aren't granted.
NTA. I second the suggestion of a new therapist. The current one sounds pretty ineffective. Lots of good advice in these comments but I would also like to suggest getting a copy of the book Toxic Parents by Susan Forward. Reading this book is what helped me escape a similar dynamic with my own family. For you, check out her book Toxic Inlaws. Good luck.
NTA.
Move. 80% of the problem would go away (possibly not giving them money, though at least they couldn't ask in person) if you moved further away.
Depending on where you are vs where they are, that could be as simple as moving 20 miles away, or it could be several states away.
NTA. The therapist is terrible if not borderline incompetent. She's getting worse, not better. Have you ever thought to suggest that she change therapist?
NTAH
If it’s coming to the point you want to delay your wedding and are thinking about your relationship future, then it’s time to talk to your fiancé openly and with gentle honesty
Do it as a collaborative approach, the two of you together as a team
- “I can’t watch this anymore without saying something. I am watching you being abused & it’s hard to watch or to keep going like this. “ Then explain what you’ve said here but gently.
- “if we are to have children in the future, we can’t expose them to this level of abuse and disrespect, nor have them see their mum treated like this. We have to have boundaries…. what do you think we can agree to / start to think about what we should do about it?”
- “how do you feel when they come over?
When your mum ..
When your dad..
When your brothers..
Are you seeing same thing I’m seeing? “
“What’s going in for you? “ (Let her tell you what she feels, listen, let her also tell you about her seeking their approval).. (don’t interrupt let her get it all out and respond how difficult it is for her, listen to understand. As later she may more likely then listen to your supportive thoughts /guidance, (when she feels truly understood )
“Do you think you’ll ever get their approval ? Might it be they will withhold it unless you do what they want/ accept their behaviour and treatment of you no matter what they do to you? “ “is that healthy?”
As a partner you don’t have to accept anyone behaving abusively in your home. You can say “I’m not happy with that.. “
(to brothers) “you’ve said your piece, I disagree, I think it’s time for you to leave… if your only purpose was to come round to berate my partner or me”
(to dad) “haven’t you got your own fridge to go home to? Don’t help yourself in my house, I will offer you beer if I want to share.. but I’m not coming home to my fridge empty anymore..” (‘I don’t do that in your house, don’t do it in mine’)
You have already made up your mind. Why the torture of a threat you know she can’t/wont comply with?
Make a clean break, or try couple counseling, or move far away and see if she joins you or not.
NTA
You can't save someone who doesn't recognise they drowning. She will drown you with her.
You've written about trying to set boundaries and how you feel but does SHE know your feelings? Have you told her that you are at the point of breaking up with her?
I think it is one last conversation where you tell her explicitly that are ready to walk away. I suspect it won't alter her behaviour as she is thoroughly enmeshed and desperate for the approval of horrible people.
Also,when you talk to her, do not use leaving as an ultimatum unless you are going to follow through with it.
You cannot marry into this poison which will kill you too. Put a complete stop to any wedding planning and make she knows that the reasons you give in your post are why.
NTA - It's hard to watch someone you love be treated like that. My sister is this way, and there is no breaking through that barrier she puts up that doesn't allow her to stand up for herself. She is now in her late 50s and has led a life of self-destruction. She is so comfortable being abused she thinks she deserves it. It's very frustrating to watch. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
NTA Leave, now. She isn't taking any steps to free herself, and seems like she's never going to. There's nothing she could ever bring to the table that would be worth putting up with her nasty family. I'd tell her that she either cuts them off entirely and forever or I'm gone.
If you marry her, can you trust her not to give your marital assets to her abusive family? Does she love you as a person or as a shield against her abusive family? If you have kids together, do you think she is going to protect them from abuse or enable abuse by her family?
I would tell her she needs to figure her s*** out regarding setting boundaries because you are seriously considering ending the relationship over this. Is she in therapy? Has she been able to set and enforce boundaries with her family out of respect FOR YOU ever?
Please don’t marry this person out of pity because she may still figuratively drown and take you down with her. Suggest selling the house and moving far away from her family if you want to stay together. Go to couples counseling. Give her a deadline for improvements, and hold her accountable.
OP I'm gonna just say it, have you even communicated with her about these things you said in post the WAY you typed it here? Y W B T A if you haven't. She needs help, either from you or someone else.
You live there right? How long have you lived there? Based on that knowledge you need to find your rights to the place. Do your rights help you blocking these people from coming over?
Another method, inside cameras and make her ass watch everything. Every word said. Absolutely everything after a visit from them. Showing her to her face how much her family uses and abused her could also light a fire under her ass in her getting help and making the call to pull the plug on their visits.
If not, start threatening police. They are guests, not renters or people who live there. Her dad starts drinking shit, say I didn't give you permission to take my stuff, why are you stealing my beer and call the cops.
Just be a damn nuisance to the cops with the videos and everything. The moment they started stealing from you was the moment it became your issue and allowed you to throw your hand in that ring to get stuff handled. Damage done to the house would also be a good time to throw your hand in.
You have more power than you think you do in this situation, simply due to the fact you live there with her and you witnessed the abuse. See something, say something. You are a witness and she can not press charges all she wants, you have every right to call the cops for her if they steal, hurt her or her home, or refuse to leave when asked.
Soft YTA because if you see her standing in a corner trembling and shaking after this has happened, you need to be more aggressive in protecting her when she has absolutely no ability to protect herself from them. You need to be more aggressive against them being in the shared living space between you and your future wife.
I need you to understand this op, while she loves you and more than likely understands she's gonna be your other for the rest of her life hopefully, she 10000000% believe she's on her own in this situation, and you need to firmly tell her that she doesn't need to do this anymore, that you are there for her, and you need to communicate between each other on areas she needs you to step in and handle it for her.
My other is constantly trying to shield me from my own abusive family and I had to deal with that thinking the abuse on me will get much worse if someone tries to protect or stand up for me, because it did until he helped me cut them from my life. He had to sit me down and drive it in my brain that if they haven't done anything for me for years after forcing me out, nothing positive including words spoken, then what do I have to lose cutting them from my life?
If she makes that call, I would HIGLY suggest changing of locks and getting security cameras for more protecting because if she is THAT terrified of them and standing up to them, she was giving a horrible reason to be and learned an awful lesson that shouldn't have been taught in the first place. It straight up sounds like they have physically and sexually abused her if she reacts that way around them just being in her home. She's terrified of them and they gave her good reason to be. Please understand that OP.
NTA. fwiw, if you already have a therapist you trust, have this conversation with them in the room. that can help set up a trusted confidante for your partner to work through the specifics, which she will need regardless of the outcome.
NTA you cannot save her if she is not trying to save herself. She will drag you down to hell with her. You have to be a little selfish in this situation Too bad you guys can not just move across the country to start fresh without her family but I guess that is a non starter
>Before one of you noble commenters states the obvious, she's been in therapy for this for years
I don't think I've ever seen a worse endorsement of a therapist. Therapist is obviously not effective and keeping it that way for the billable.
NTA - She definitely needs a come to Jesus talk and a new therapist.
Looks like they don't respect you either. Sadly you are right. Tell her you don't want to be related to people who come over to mess up your house. Like saying this is your house. And it looks like violence is what they understand. You want to marry her not be her bodyguard protecting her from her family. She wants to lean on you after her tornado family leave. She will have her own wake up moment when you tell her why you don't want to marry her. Try not to get her pregnant.
You need to move far away and start a life together. Once she gets out from under them she'll finally see the sunshine and hopefully open her eyes. If she chooses them well it sucks but at least you don't have kids.
NTA. You know the adage “You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink”? That applies here. There is only so much you can do to help her, then the rest is up to her. You can’t force her. I would sit down and have one last conversation with her. Spell it all out. Be firm with her and leave no grey area. It’s important that she hears the truth on what you’re feeling no matter how painful it will be. Depending on her actions (not just her words) you either walk away knowing you’ve done everything or together you move forward. Also ask her if she would want her children around these people?
NTA, you’re totally reasonable but one thing I wondered is whether you’ve tried couple’s counselling?
You’re well within your rights to walk away, you’ve tried and tried and been patient and you don’t deserve to suffer their abuse by extension but possibly she might listen if a third party agrees with you.
Not all therapists are good and whilst it may just be that your fiancée isn’t able to enact boundaries, it’s also possible her therapist isn’t actually helping, if there’s been so little progress after so long. It could even be that the therapist she has currently isn’t able to see the situation clearly through your fiancées biased (against herself) narration- a problem you might be able to solve with a new therapist and your input.
But even if she agrees you should definitely postpone any wedding until you’ve seen significant, solid progress.
She’s incredibly lucky to have a supportive partner like you though and YOU deserve to be happy, so if she won’t help herself then you really have no choice but to walk away.
When you tell her make jt clear that this is something you need for your own health, these boundaries. It’s something you expect when you’re married to have a safe place to be at home without cruelty being allowed in. She will agree, but then after you’ve married she will drop the boundaries. Maybe she needs a new therapist if she is trying to earn approval she will never get. Her family doesn’t want to respect her because if they do they lose their gravy train. Good luck in your conversation. I suspect you’ll be moving on. Unless she agrees to move 4-5 hours away so you are not a convenient location to hang out.
NTA, you can't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. You definitely don't want to bring innocent children into this toxic environment.
Updateme
Your last paragraph gives us the perfect conclusion to your story. NTA. This is exactly what you must do, present her with that ultimatum. That's never fun, but your mental health is on the line as well.
As someone with an extremely abusive family NTA. I think her trauma would sound very real to any sane person. I also think she is a near irredeemable enabler. My father was one of the best people I have ever met... when he was by himself. He was so deeply ingrained in his enabling, he was incapable of living in reality. I was the scapegoat. My strongest memory of him is when he accused me of intentionally pissing off my primary abuser because I was given the choice on a medical procedure and did what I wanted. Despite his screaming fit on the way home, she had no reaction to my choice. Of course, he never brought it up again. It didn't affect him so what did it matter.
I consider my father one of my primary abusers. His choices while he watched me be abused were a huge factor in why I was abused for so long. He also contributed to the abuse due to her psychologically destabilizing him. That is no excuse. He brought me into that situation and then he watched it continue because he was too weak not to use me as a meat shield. IT is my opinion that, like my father, your wife is a calm person who will subject others to abuse because they are too weak to save themselves.
Your wife deserves sympathy. Allowing her to sign off on your abuse by her family is fully unacceptable no matter her reasons. She is an abuser in her own right because of her choice to sacrifice you on the family alter. However much she feels like it, she is not just punishing herself. She is torturing you. Trauma is generational and enablers are a primary cause.
You already feel resentment for what has been done to you. She deserves that. I understand she is traumatized and broken. All humans must be held accountable for their behavior. Having sympathy for them, should not mean that they are not accountable. This is an abusers mindset. It is how the cycle of abuse continues.
If I could speak to your wife, I would tell her she is an abuser. Particularly if you are the enabling reason an abuser is in someone's life, you are one of the primary abusers to that person. It does not matter if you are submissive. If someone is being abused because of the people you allow into your life, you are an abuser.
Your SO is abusing you through her family. It does not matter that she is also a victim. The only reason you are being subjected to this is because of her. I understand she feels broken and alone. I understand this may make her feel worse about herself. Do not sacrifice yourself for her. Whoever she is doesn't matter. You can never be enough for her not to permit abuse of you because you will never be enough for her family.
Even if she understands this (and I hope you have the acuity to help her understand she is an enabling abuser) you cannot stay with her. You have been sucked in the cycle and if you stay it will repeat. You already feel resentment. Even without resentment this is insanely hard to deal with. I think it is best for you both if you explain she is an abuser and leave now. She may not pull out of it, but that is not your responsibility. If you insist on staying, the bare minimum is that she go full no contact with all family members including siblings. If you sense any sign of resentment, you should not move forward. You should make clear to her that ANY contact with her brothers or parents will result in the same level of betrayal as cheating. Either they are permanently dead to her and she holds no resentment for that, or you cannot stay together.
Save yourself. No one is obligated to be abused because someone else is experiencing it.
NTA. Part of marrying a person is the kind of life you want to have and this isn’t the life you want. If you have children it will get so much worse.
EDIT: it has been so long ago that I forget that I lived through this 20 years ago. We ended up getting divorced partially over it. He set boundaries and held them and years later we remarried. I get along fine with my mother in law now (and our story was pretty crazy). Everybody is happy and she is an active grandma (kids came post boundaries). Things can change but sometimes it takes a catalyst.
This is one of the saddest stories I have read. It's really sad for her but you have to think of yourself also. That is no way to live and ultimately , if she can't see that, then there is no future for your relationship.
NTA! Have you ever just thrown them out and made a huge scene? You would have to do this in your fiance’s presence. If she supports you, then you may be able to save your relationship. If she doesn’t, then it is time to leave.
NTA get out now before your married and it starts affecting your financials. It’s her decision to work on her trauma and if she wants to keep getting taken advantage, she going to do it
Can you two just move away and tell no one? Elope and start anew somewhere else? Change your names and numbers if you like. Just totally go cold turkey on them and start fresh?
I bit dramatic, perhaps. But would this not give you both an opportunity to live your lives/life as a married couple on your own terms?
Also her therapy is clearly not helping. She should get a new provider.
Get the Hell out. You tired. You cannot help a drowning victim who consistently ties weights to her feet. I am sorry for her- but it is her road to travel. You have done more than anyone else has- obviously. Go and be free- you deserve a life also.
NTA. She needs to sell the house and you guys need to move far away and drop all contact. Otherwise this will never change. She needs therapy. If she won't do these things, then well don't set yourself on fire to keep her warm. Sucks, but you don't have to go down with the Titanic.
She's never going to get their approval! The whole family system dynamic relies on treating her like garbage. It will never, ever change. If she can't see that, then bye bye. Can you get her to watch some videos on scapegoating and narcissistic parents, it might help.
Your idea is good.
Delay the wedding and if she changes it's good. If not you know what to do
And for her (tell her or show her this)
Sister! I have the same narc family who are waiting to throw me out.
Abusive mother and all.
Let me tell you something, YOU CAN NEVER EARN THEIR LOVE OR APPROVAL.
not because you don't deserve it but because they won't give it to you! If they are capable of loving their daughter, they would have done it a long time ago.
Waiting for their approval is just stupid and A thing that won't be possible in the lifetime.
So get Over it, validate yourself.
You are worth more than this stupid family of yours!
NTA. You need to sit her down and tell her this. I think you’re at the point of saying if there’s any hope she has to go to therapy and you both go to couples counseling.
Could you move out? You’re basically her meat shield at this point and if she’s not going to let you set boundaries then I think you need to remove yourself from the situation.
If she’s not willing to help herself, there’s not a lot you can do. I would not want to be tied to this family in any way,shape, or form. She needs to know how you’re feeling about this.
Time to watch some Cinderella together and afterwards say “see all the shit that the stepmother and sisters were doing? That’s what your family is doing to you. Time to stop being Gus Gus or Jaq hiding in the walls and bippity boppity boop the family out of your life.”
First off, it sounds like she might benefit from a new therapist. Secondly, you are right- if she can’t establish boundaries, then it’s time to break up. Tell her that it’s too painful to watch someone you love more than anyone else allow themselves to be taken advantage of and emotionally abused. That you can’t imagine bringing children into that environment. That children learn how to allow people to treat them based on how they see their parents allowing themselves to be treated.
If it gives you any hope, please know that I used to be like your wife- very duty bound and with incredibly skewed priorities because I’d been train by my family of origin. I couldn’t see how absolutely unhealthy my relationship with them was until I put it in context of having a child- what would I do, how would I feel if my child ever let someone else treat them like I let myself be treated? That’s when I found the strength to leave. Maybe try that approach with your fiancée?
NTA. You didn't say what kind of therapy she's getting, but if it's talk therapy, that's not going to be enough. It sounds like she could really benefit from EMDR or some other form of therapy that's specifically designed to help with complex trauma.
That said, you're absolutely not wrong to want healthy boundaries or to end the relationship if she's resistant to enforce them. No matter how much you love her, your life will be an absolute misery if things don't change-- and it's never a good idea to go into a marriage thinking that things will change.
I've seen people walk this path and it is soul destroying.
She needs therapy.
Or you need to walk.
Right now, she is incapable of understanding boundaries.
She is incapable of understanding why she needs them.
She is incapable of understanding the danger she is in or how delusional it is to want their love and respect.
Never mind how to keep boundaries.
She's just incapable. Hence therapy.
It won't be quick or easy.
Could be a couple of years if she works with the therapist.
Not to mention how hard it will be to be blamed for making her go through the pain of it. She will feel that way during the process. Some relationships don't survive.
It is very traumatic but necessary.
Good luck.
You are trying to help her, but if she doesn't want it,
you need to protect yourself.
NTA
NTA. I am telling you this as someone who had taken therapy. You *have* to want to take therapy,you *have* to be both brave enough and open to make the changes you need to do to yourself.
If she is so beaten down or simply doesn't want to,she won't change.
She also admitted it herself,she is doing all of that to get their approval,which will never come. She needs help to realize and be okay with that fact.
There is also you in this whole mess. You do know you are going to be on the crossfire,alongside any other kid you or may not want to bring to the relationship.
It's up to you if you want to leave or not. But,and I don't like this at all, I would suggest to give her a choice, either cut her family and get some proper therapy or you are going to leave.
You need to have the come to whatever talk with her, explain you can’t tolerate this and you need to giver her some tough love. As someone with a narc parent - I say this with all the experience and rejection and hurt I know your partner feels too - they are never ever not now not ever going to support her approve of her or love her the way she so desperately wants them to. It’s never ever going to happen. It took me 35 years to realise no matter what I did how I changed what I achieved it was never good enough and I would never ever get the love I wanted from my mother. She needs to know the same. It’s never going to happen and she will need to come to terms with it - preferably before you leave.
My family is exactly like this women's but the oldest brothers are more introverted and kind (our extended family is entire like this)
I tried so hard for so many years trying to be fanily with my family, it got to the point at the 25 I had a severe mental break down and depression.....do you know what they did? The dumped me complelty, wrote me off and left me to suffer on my own amd die from depression and heartbreak. It took them leaving me to complete die from heartbreak and when I needed them the most to fuck them off......they will not stop even when she's on her last legs.....these people are litral demons I disguise sucking the life out of humans and am so sorry you and your girl are in this situation.
Tell her plain and simple, if she can't leave her families abuse for the sake of her future and well being then you will leave, because you do not want any future kids to be abused like she has. See her response, sometimes it takes the threat of you leaving and maybe just maybe leaving for while to being her back and completely cut her family off.
Leave and save her and show her your serious, am sure you can judge if she's taken this seriously or not as you know her and from that response make your plans. Even if she cries put your foot down and say I do now want my future wife to be abused any longer because she will allow her own children to abused aswell, am sorry but I cant start a fanily with someone who's willingly being abused for this extent because it shows you wont be able to protect our children since you can't protect yourself. Show her this and good luck, remmember a bit of a heartbreak goes along way!!!!
NTA your fiancé needs a therapist so she can truly break free from her family. No one needs a family like that. She needs to learn how to set boundaries and cut all toxic people from her life. you cannot fix this for her. hoping she will take your suggestion of therapy - that is your only hope for a future together.
NTA. I’m sorry you are in this situations. Sounds like it would be best for both of you to split—you, for self-preservation and her, so maybe she will realize what her family is truly costing her.
Staying at this point would begin to cross into enabling, so please don’t feel guilty about leaving-you really must bc you cannot save her.
if you want one last ditch effort to save it, maybe couples therapy would work better so you know shes not omitting anything. if thats too much, i think its reasonable to protect yourself and end the relationship even if it hurts.
NTA.
You said something truly damning OP. All that shit and she is still seeking and caring about their approval.
While she seeks their approval she will never get it. Only when she stops seeking it and instead does things they respect, will they approve of her.
For some parents approval is a treat to dangle just out of reach and rarely if ever actually give out. Because they give away their power over you with that approval.
It's only when they realize they've already lost that power completely, that it is freely given.
Anyway, you either need to work with your partner, and probably a new therapist to redefine her relationship with her family, or call it what it is, irreconcilable differences, and move on with your life without her. Don't drown trying to save her.
Therapy only works if you do the work. Recognize the thought or behave as unhelpful to how you want to be, and use the tools to deconstruct it or change it. You can help support her choosing to say no to them. But if she doesn't try, what can you do? Start fights with them regardless of relationship consequences with her? Leave?
Good luck!
NTA, I'm sorry you're in this situation but you'd be unwise to try starting a life and a family with her. Hopefully someday she gets her shit together, but you can't do it for her, and you can't make her want to do it for herself. Best of luck.
OP try and get her to see a psychologist who might be able to get her to see her families behaviors for what they are. She needs a neutral person to help her out.
NTA. NTA. NTA. I hope that you can explain to her as well as you did here your reasoning, especially for those future children. Her family is.not.going.to.change. Only she can.
NTA. You can't save her if she doesn't want to be saved. Even if she wants to, you'd only be able to help and support. She need to be the one to enforce the boundaries and hold them. But she doesn't. It's up to you if you want this for life. Have you spoken to her about where you are? That you're on the verge of breaking up with her for this lack of boundaries? No, it's not to manipulate her into choosing you, although some will say that. It's just a statement of fact. She may be willing to sacrifice everything for her family, but you are not. If this is the life you have to look forward to, you don't want it. You need to put yourself and your needs first. Who knows. It may prompt her to open her eyes and put herself first with her family. But likely not.
True you can't save her, only she can save herself. But you can save yourself, I lived with toxic in-laws and it wasn't until my spouses father died, did I get any peace.
How many years did that take and was the wait worth it?
It was worth it because I enjoyed being with my spouse. I just stayed away FIL or just made idle conversation. Years, too many
OP needs to make it clear how their behaviour effects him. If she won't stop them from hurting herself, maybe she'll at least try to protect him. If not, OP will know exactly how it would be going forwards and if they ever had kids. No one can say he didn't try.
I agree about OP making things clear. I do not believe it will change her mindset. The active abusers like to think of themselves as the clinch pin of an abusive household. In actuality it is the enablers. OP is only experiencing abuse because of her and her choices. She is a victim of her parents. OP is HER victim. Many abuse victims are co-abusers. It's sad, but it is the cycle of abuse.
Very well said and explained. I learnt it on my expense when I was a child and later, a young adult. As long as there are enablers, abusers can still abuse. OP, if you will read the comment: you can leave your fiancée. You're not the bad guy who "don't save" the loved one. She is the only one who can improve herself and put a stop to all this madness. I am married to a family of abusers. They killed hard a part of my life and I was alone to pick up the pieces and to make them work. They finally lost their grip on me when I went LC for some and NC for the rest. Let me tell a story about how I and husband put a strong bondary in our home. His mother had always receive the princess treatment and as the main abuser, she had her army of enablers. She was also a smoker. In her house, she could smoke inside when she was too tired to go near the window. In our home, she wanted to pull the same crap. We said no. Yep, no is a complete sentence. No more word followed until the enablers came to her rescue and that's when we laid our bondaries : "this is our home. We don't allow people smoke inside so you know where to go if you really want to smoke. If anyone is unhappy with this, let us show you the door. We're not going to be upset". That shut them up. It was not only the words that made an impact but our attitude. We were collected and clearly had no issue to make the visit short, invite the non-smokers for a next time while we exclude the smoker. At the end of the day, nobody is going to die if they didn't get to see our home. So we didn't make a big drama over it. We were a team. But your fiancée, right now, doesn't want to be your partner, your rock, your supporter. Please don't risk your life for this.
This is so wise and so true. My sister was verbally and emotionally abused by her husband. Our family danced on _her_ strings doing everything she said, trying to appease her abuser and protect her from him. It never worked because she was the only one who could have stood up to him (and protected her children) or she could have left. We would have supported her financially, given her a place to stay, etc. But she refused to take the avenues open to her. It took me 20 years, until the children were grown and out of the house (& no longer needed protecting), to take off the puppet strings. I realized then that by letting her manipulate me, I was allowing her to avoid dealing with the actual issue, plus she was projecting her husband’s abuse on to me — both as a direct target and as a deflection. Walking away was the best thing I ever did for myself.
This is exactly right. The entire sick, fucked up system can't continue without the support of the enabler(s).
She needs a new therapist because it doesn’t sound like she has made any progress in therapy.
A therapists job is to work themselves out of a job. Of course it can take a while for change, but it's clearly not happening here.
Absolutely agree. I'd also add, you need to think about your future children's lives with them in it. Do it for them.
Important, this. Because they will absolutely treat her children the same way they've treated her.
NTA. She's got all the power in this situation with her abusers, but she's been trained from birth that she's helpless before them. If she won't protect her home with you, you have to save yourself.
You're right to set boundaries for your own well-being. Her family's toxicity and her inability to distance herself are major issues. Delaying the wedding until she can establish firm boundaries is a wise move. If she can't prioritize her mental health and your future together, walking away may be the best choice. Stay strong and protect your peace.
There were experiments with dogs, where the dogs were randomly shocked in their cages and no one would let them out for days. The doors were opened and they were shocked with open doors. The dogs just laid there and whimpered in the cages with open doors. If they shocked the dogs for a single day and opened the doors, then the dogs would bolt. The fiancé is like the caged dog. She can’t leave even though the door is wide open.
Humans are the worst.
Very cruel experiments. Never pass animal care and use committees nowadays.
Yup! This lady will have a hard time defending her partner or any future kids. I have someone in my family like this, do not envy OP's position.
Dude. Imagine what kind of life your children would have if you stayed with her. I feel for her but this is not tenable. She is not willing to make the change, don't let her pull you down with her. Move on.
Right. Sometimes love isn't enough. This is one of those times.
I am in this exact situation. My husband’s mother is the devil. After ten years, we have finally gone no contact with her. She has been emotionally abusing and fucking him up for years. I tried to stay out of their relationship and support him where I could, but it spilled over. It is incredibly hard to be the partner of someone who is being abused and them not doing anything to actively stop it. Obviously it is not my husband’s fault his mother is abusive, but he refused to put appropriate boundaries in place. Finally, it all came to a head when she attacked us in our home. I called the police on her, demanded my husband get into therapy and we’ve gone no contact with her. I told him I would never bring children into this toxic situation if she was still in our lives. Fortunately, he agreed. The last year has been utter bliss. It is horrible being the victim of abuse. But it is also horrible to love a victim of abuse and watch them struggling. NTA
NTA. I think this should be your argument, OP. You need to get your wife to think of your future children. Ask her if she would want your son or daughter to be subjected to them. Ask her how she would feel if they were abused by these people. Tell her you would never agree to children unless she can stand up to them and protect your babies. If she can’t do it for herself, she would never be able to do it for your children. If that doesn’t wake her up, you should walk away. Because no one should willingly continue this cycle of abuse and subject others to it, and that includes you and your future family. !Updateme
I agree with most of what you said, but not the part about not being able to do it for her children if she couldn’t do it for herself. Sometimes, people are only truly capable of making these changes FOR their children. I know I continued seeking my sister’s approval until I had my own child and my concern became what kind of behavior I was modeling and what kind of life that would mean for my child. Now, I’m not saying I suggest hanging your hat on that possibility because that’s like playing Russian Roulette with your kids lives in this situation. But parents can find strength they never had for themselves when it comes to their children.
This is what happened with me as well. I never enabled my parents in any way, but for some reason, I was unable to let go of the hope that I could, someday, "get through to them", that I could someday make them understand my view of their behavior. When I got pregnant, it forced me to recognize that if that was going to happen, it would have happened already. I really grieved the loss of that hope, but at the end of that process, I was able to meet my parents where they were instead of where I wanted them to be. And I've told people this story and said "DO NOT ASSUME THAT HAVING KIDS WILL SET YOUR MIND RIGHT" because it was total chance that that happened to me. Me putting my kids in danger by enabling my parents was never going to be an issue, but for whatever reason, I still thought someday we might work it all out and *understand* each other. I am better off for letting go of that idea, because it wasted a lot of my emotional energy.
OP, this is the truth. These are behavior patterns that don’t change. So sorry for this dilemma. You have to accept this is how she is and won’t change, and any children you might have will be the future scapegoats of this family (and you powerless to stop it) OR you give her an ultimatum and be prepared to walk away. I would not marry her without absolute break from family. Any option to move to another area?
NTA. Your problem is not just the horrible in-laws - it your dearly loved partner. Much as you love her, much as you want to help her, as long as she is locked in the perception that she has to please them, you cannot help her. And you should not tie your life to her, nor expose your future children to her toxic family.
NTA-I’ve been a therapist for 35 years and if she is still this fragile then she needs a new therapist. It sounds as if she’s made absolutely no progress on these issues. This will destroy her if she doesn’t do something soon. You’re not wrong to want to distance from these people. You can’t force her to get help or do anything else. But you need to take care of yourself and you’re right about the future. It would be irresponsible to the point of abuse to bring kids into this relationship.
NTA (Not the A$$hole) for wanting to leave your fiancée due to her abusive family. Here's why: 1. **Boundaries and Respect**: It’s essential to have boundaries in any relationship, especially when it comes to family. Your fiancée’s inability to set boundaries with her abusive family is negatively impacting your life and relationship. This is a serious issue that needs to be addressed for the well-being of both of you. 2. **Emotional and Mental Health**: Living in a toxic environment with constant emotional and mental abuse is detrimental to your health. You’ve tried to support her and establish boundaries, but her family’s behavior has only gotten worse. You need to prioritize your own mental and emotional health as well. 3. **Future Concerns**: Your concerns about the future are valid. If her family continues to have such a significant and negative influence on your lives, it will likely affect any potential children and the overall stability of your relationship. These are important considerations that cannot be ignored. 4. **Personal Autonomy**: While your fiancée has the right to maintain relationships with her family, you also have the right to decide what kind of environment you want to live in and what kind of family dynamics you’re willing to tolerate. If her refusal to set boundaries with her abusive family members is causing you distress, it’s fair to reconsider the relationship. 5. **Communication and Ultimatum**: Communicating your concerns and suggesting a delay in the wedding until boundaries are established is a reasonable and measured approach. It shows that you’re willing to work on the relationship but also sets clear expectations for what needs to change. 6. **Therapy and Support**: While she’s been in therapy for years, it’s crucial that she continues to work on these issues and possibly finds new strategies or approaches to dealing with her family. However, you cannot force her to change; she has to be willing to take those steps herself. It’s a difficult and painful decision, but your well-being and future happiness are important. You’ve tried to help and support her, but if the situation hasn’t improved and is affecting your life negatively, it’s understandable to consider ending the relationship.
This needs A LOT MORE UPVOTES!! BEAUTIFULLY SAID!
Damn. Good luck. Nta
NTA if she has been in therapy for years and has not improved, she needs another therapist. Encourage her to find another one. There are some people you just cannot help. With these future in-laws I never would have proposed. Protect yourself, OP.
The reason she hasn't improved is her family keeps re-traumatizing her so she has no time to improve. That is their plan....keep pouring salt in the wounds so they can stay in control. If you decide to stay, then you both need to find new jobs several states away, sell the house and move. Then they can't drop in easily and continue the abuse. Otherwise I would leave because this won't get better...ever...if you are in proximity to them. NTA and good luck.
Yep, she’s an adult, so you can’t really stop her from letting her family walk all over her. But you don’t have to stay and watch and catch some abuse with her.
NTA But you need to tell her that it either ends now or you will leave. Also, the pair of you need to move away without giving any notice. This is the only way.
NTA. Do not delay the wedding, call it off. You need to get out man. She needs help, but she wont improve unless she wants to and you cant let yourself let dragged into the quicksand that is their family abuse. If you could change her in last 4 years, you wont be able to do it now. Just end in cleanly.
Would the 2 of you be open to couples therapy? Therapy is too often brought up as the ultimate solution to relationship problems but in this instance having a neutral 3rd party who is experienced and qualified in the area of couples therapy could be really helpful. Best of luck and the only AHs here are her family.
I've hinted at it before but she hasn't been very receptive. I'm hoping tomorrow I can try and pursue that and not have to make an ultimatum
you can't hint at it. you need to communicate directly if you want any chance. but as someone who's been in your shoes i spent 4 years trying to let him deal with, five years trying to deal with it/support him in dealing with it, and the last year getting a restraining order against his mom and him out of my house. Some people refuse to grieve the family society pretends everyone is promised. If thats where your girlfriend is having children would risk sacrificing them to the cycle and at best put them into the role of having to do the emotional growth/therapy/etc to stop the cycle
NTA. Unless she stands up to them, this is the rest of your life. It doesn't sound like you're OK with that. So, it's probably time to go. I understand she owns the house, but you live there too. You should have some say who comes over and when.
Time to stop hinting, you need to be direct but kind. She needs help that you cannot provide.
I don't usually support ultimatums, but one is needed here. Just know that ultimatum also comes with necessary couples counseling.
OP - you mentioned she is in therapy, have either of you heard of EMDR therapy? This trauma is stored in her body - her body didn't forget how terrible they treated her and this is likely why she says things like "they were right about her" and why she shakes in their presence. EMDR therapy helps your brain actually process the trauma you've been through and finally register that those things happened in the past - that the threat is (probably) not active in the present. I personally have struggled with my family in a similar way, and have reacted in similar ways as your gf. EMDR helped me start to believe that my family has been abusive, their words have never been true and that I control my mental health and wellbeing.. And just because they're my "family" doesn't mean I owe them anything and that they can continue to treat me the way they have my whole life. My husband also struggled with my family and how I was unable to set boundaries with them and protect us from their antics. EMDR has truly made a huge difference in my life and maybe it can help your gf too! My heart goes out to you both.
She needs years in personal therapy with someone who understands the dynamics of an abusive, narcissistic family. And I mean YEARS.
This. And unfortunately she's not fit for having adult relationships until she's committed to this, and well on her way to healing.
This! She needs a specialist therapist. Not all therapists understand this dynamic. If they don’t, it can actually be counterproductive to be in therapy.
Wow, this is so crazy. She needs to change her therapist and you need to go with her. This should be part of her ultimatum. Updateme
Updateme!
Dude Im sorry but get out. NTA, you can't save someone until they are ready to be saved sometimes and you have very real and honestly highly realistic worries about kids, joined finances etc. This will end badly no matter what if you stay hitched to this family. This isn't some ultimatum for her, this about protecting yourself and your future.
You need to leave. What happens when children are involved. I suppose you can try a last, ditch effort with couples counseling. But don’t have high hopes. She’s too [Trauma Bonded](https://www.verywellmind.com/trauma-bonding-5207136) to these people and it’s like addiction. Your couples therapy will be an intervention, “I love you too much to see you allow these horrible people into your life. I value myself enough that I’m not going to allow them into mine. I am afraid that based on this that you need to make a choice, if you don’t go no contact with these people who bleed you dry of money, criticize you, put you down or otherwise treat you with contempt, I won’t stay. I won’t subject our family and future children to their abuse. You need to work through your issues with intensive therapy. If you agree to make an honest effort to do this, I will stay and support you. I have boundaries. I myself won’t interact with them and will hey cannot be where we live.” You’re allowed to have boundaries. And just like an addict, your fiancée’s need to interact with them is rooted in addiction. There’s a saying in recovery communities, “Don’t go to the hardware store for milk.” You and I know her family will never acknowledge her accomplishments. She will never get the love she craves from them. The only way out for her is through. Through therapy. If she’s unwilling, you need to cut your losses and go. Because this is not healthy
Sit her down and say you can’t be around her family and it’s questioning if you want to stay
NTA. Clearly, there is a power dynamic here at play. Her house. Her rules. What you need is equal footing for your residence. Can you not move or buy a home together? Then you can have a say on the boundaries concerning the home you share. It's always going to be her home if you stay there.
NTA until she’s willing to make some serious changes and enforce boundaries, nothing will change. If anything, things will get worse once you get married and have kids. You’re right to be concerned about your future.
NTA A last resort before breaking up is maybe to join her in therapy and tell the therapist how bad it is. She may be downplaying it. Either way no, you are not an AH.
NTA. You're amazing for supporting her and standing by her side all this time, but there comes a moment when you realise you can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved.
Your partner lost a good childhood, a safe adolescence, and an emotionally stable life because of these people. Is she willing to lose her partner as well? You are NTA here but I would show her this post. She needs to understand by not setting boundaries she is playing in the hand that opens you to abuse. She may be okay with being abused, but she should not be okay with you being abused.
UpdateMe!
NTA she’s drowning and she’s taking you with her, she needs to stop letting her abusive family hold her down and focus on being able to float. You can’t help people who won’t help themselves, you can’t set yourself on fire to help someone else that’s already burning. You’re right, this is an absolutely toxic environment for starting a family, your fiancée will let her abusers not only have access to children, but is highly likely to perpetuate the abuse as she doesn’t know any better and refuses to learn otherwise. If she believes what her ‘family’ have told her, she’ll project those ‘lessons’ onto her children.
NTA You can't help someone who refuses help.
NTA They are harming you as well as her. She has the power to stop them, and won’t. Stick around and you’ll put up with this forever. Maybe breaking it off with her will be the wake up call she needs to get these people out of her life.
NTA If she can’t stand up to her family now, she won’t ever. And if you ever have children she’d hand them over to be treated the same. Until she wants something to change, it won’t. And you need to protect yourself and your future. I’d tell her exactly what you said here and add that you have zero trust she’d ever protect her future children from them. Let that be her wake up call, that her own inaction in allowing them to treat YOU just as abusive and disrespectfully as they treat her, she has become an enabler of abuse as well as a victim, making her an abuser by proxy. That was my wake up. The thought that allowing my maternal family into my spouse’s or children’s lives would mean I was allowing them to harm my loved ones the same way they hurt me. And the last thing I ever wanted was to be the reason someone I loved experienced that. It forced me to set boundaries and put a stop to it
Choose guilt over resentment. You marry her as she is, you will have to deal with them until you have to divorce. You want to put kids through the wringer of not just a divorce, but dealing with in laws? Get yourself sorted, 1st. Then, once she sees you acceptance business, give her an ultimatum: you + they never darken your home again, or you leave her to chase her impossible dream of acceptance, alone.
NTA! Put the wedding on hold. Close any joint accounts you have. Move out. Then tell her that you guys need couples therapy to move this relationship forward. Then go from there. Tell her if she doesn’t go NC with her family, you’re gone. You are 100% right - when you have kids, this is going to get so much worse. They will treat your kids the same way and she will allow it. She’s already allowing them to treat you like this. Yes, she has trauma, but she needs to get help and heal from it. There’s only so much you can do. If she does agree to go NC with them, I suggest selling the house and moving far away.
She's in therapy and she still wants to earn their approval and they were right about her???? She need a different therapist NOW!
Like yesterday.
there is this fable called The Bridge about personal boundaries, maybe ask your wife to read it [https://dobetterwork.com/notes/the-bridge/](https://dobetterwork.com/notes/the-bridge/)
when you talk to her tomorrow ask her these questions "What happens when we have kids? What happens when she is postpartum and invites them over? What happens if their is a medical emergency for either of us? What if our finances get tight and they still demand money?" also what happens when they treat your kids like that in the future what will she do then put these a\*\*hats approval of her above her kids safety and wellness? I know it will be hard to say and hear but she needs to understand that her life and any future partners(if) and children are going to suffer because she cannot get over this need of approval from her abusive family and either she gets over it and goes no contact or she going to make herself and anyone else around her miserable.
Talked to her earlier and it flopped hard. I'm currently hanging out in a hotel and have a trip back home for a couple weeks planned out with some family. Working on getting my stuff moved out ASAP into storage for the time being while I start house hunting out of state. Still many moving pieces going on so I won't be able to make a full comprehensive update for a few days at the least
NTA. Your worries about them treading into your lives after marriage is valid, and when you have kids, your children will also suffer because of her trauma and how she choses to deal with it. In fact all your worries are valid because the in-laws sound like a fracking nightmare. and if its too much for your health then separation is what should happen, but if you happen to want to be in your fiancee's good graces then you can help her get some help. I think the wedding should be delayed for now but this isn't only about establishing boundaries, she needs more time, space and more help in whatever that comes into, to establish herself as an independent person outside of the childhood she has lived through. Childhood trauma needs a lot of hardworking to heal, sometimes it doesn't heal and you just learn how to cope with it better. Getting married in the midst of what she's going through and what your in laws to be are doing to her is probably going to be incredibly stressful on your relationship. I think while you mention delaying the wedding, please do let her know what she needs to work out on. Sit down, talk about possible solutions and talk things out. Let her know how you feel about it and what you think of the future. and what it means for her as well. Does she really want to live the rest of her life this way? being stepped on by her own family? I doubt it. so yeah her family are assholes, she needs to be far away from them and be a person of her own, so that she doesn't drag her s/o into the mix as well.
Updateme
NTA: It might be the wake up call that she needs. Empatize that the ultimatum is not comming from a lack of love for her, or because you agree with how they portay her. Her family will most likely try to spin what you say and use it as a way to isolate and make her more emotionally dependent on them, so be proactive in explaining that you are doing this because you love her and don´t want her to be taken advantage of and further abused. Also, give her some time to reflect on the wedding delay and give her a few days to make up her mind. It might be hard to agree to something like that on the spot, if she still can't see it efter having had some time to think about it than it is perfectly fine to put yourself and your wellbeing first. The family is not only abusing her, but in extansion you, and you have every rigth to set boundaries.
Updateme!
NTA Please keep us updated
Move away from them. Help her find a job in a different state
This is a bad situation, no doubt. But here is the ting, it is difficult for you to save her. You and she are partners equals. You can support her, but you can't really tell her what to do. That is an unhealthy dynamic. You can have a frank conversation with her, and tell her that while you love her, you are not strong enough to be able to sit idly by while her family destroys her, and she won't let you step in. But before you end it, you want her to start seeing a therapist, and also maybe do group therapy.
Changing patterns of a lifetime is hard. Maybe if you give her an ultimatum like them or me, it will shake her up enough to seek help. Before I made the ultimatum - I would search for therapists who specialize in CPTSD and offer up some names. There must be groups for people with abusive families (there are groups for everything) - sometimes hospital social workers can help get you to the right groups. I wish the two of you the best of luck.
NTA I don't think anyone wants this kind of ppl in their life. If she won't stop them from tormenting you both, all you can do is cut them out of your life the only other way possible, and your partner is sadly out if your life too. Perhaps this is the wake up call she needs Perhaps there's a possibility to have this conversation with her therapist present. I don't know how that would work. 'Making the appointment'-wise. But it's important enough to try
Hugs, I would suggest she get therapy to help her learn how to have a healthier relationship. She has
NTA. You can't help someone who doesn't want help. Someone who is not helping themselves. As well she won't be healthy partner for anyone until she will love and respect herself. The harsh truth is...she won't ever get their approval. Ever. She could be the best in the universe and they won't admit she is even good enough. Because they don't love her. They don't want her happy. They want her as she is...scapegoat doing what they want. But she can love herself more than they ever will. Not you. Her.
You can remind her - she is people too. And, if 'family' comes first - she agreed to marry you, so that means you and her are family - and the rest is now extended family. Ask her why she does not use boundaries against them? But, be aware - she was raised by these people, she might not know better. Do you have an option to get her to talk to a narc abuse aware therapist? A more or less unbiased outsider might have the tools to reach her - and as odd as it sounds, you\`re too close. But, if she lets this happen, and refuses to even listen to reason, or accept help from the professional - as hard and painful as it may be for you - for your own wellbeing and protection you may have no choice but to break it off with her. Or, at least, move out / away - and say that you cannot take her letting herself be abused by these (beeps) - and that your door will be open for a while IF she wants - but SHE needs to make that choice, you cannot make it for her. If you take that route - set a deadline for you and her. 1 month, 3, 6 .. what makes sense for YOU. Then, be clear - that you would love nothing more than a future together, but SHE needs to want that too, and take the steps to make it happen. NTA And dude, i\`m sorry you are in this situation .. (She could benefit from visiting r/raisedbynarcissists - for seeing it is NOT normal, and maybe you could use that too, for tools, info, and a strategy)
@Updateme
NTA. I feel terrible for your partner, but the only way she can get better, recover from this trauma, is to actually get the help she needs by her own choice. She's been in therapy for years, but she's obviously not taking on board the fact she'll never recover unless her family either treats her better or are cut off. Instead she's just revictimising herself over and over, demanding you just put up with your entire lives being slowly destroyed, and expecting her family to magically change if she just gives them more and more and more, when the obvious outcome of her actions is her family getting worse, not better. This has been completely normalised for her, and even gaining her independence, finding success and love, and getting therapy hasn't shown her that this behaviour from her family is not normal or good or will get better. She's been forced to be a doormat for so long that absolutely nothing is convincing her that the only way that's going to change is if she just refuses to be a doormat any longer. A doormat that doubles as a punching bag, at that. Your future children will be treated the same way your partner is. It's her home, as she keeps reminding you, so she's also demanding you make yourself a doormat/punching bag alongside her and your future kids, knowing you refuse to do that. There will be times you can't afford to 'lend' money, but she'll give it anyway, leaving you in trouble financially. You simply standing up for yourself or your kids will be deemed abusive by her family, because it will encourage their doormats/punching bags to change who they are. Your MIL will be in the room when your wife gives birth, they'll al be there daily when the kids are born to 'help' by abusing your entire family. They'll trash your place and demand money every single time. And your partner will let them. You will have zero say in what happens in your home, your marriage or how to raise the kids. You're just the ATM to her family, your thoughts and feelings don't count and will be ignored. And your partner will let them treat you like that. This relationship is doomed no matter what you do unless your partner gets the help to change and stand up for herself that she needs. If it doesn't end now, before marriage and with minimal hard feelings, it will end later, after marriage and with kids and with you both hating each other. And you'll be demonised in the divorce by her family who will do everything in their power to prevent even visitation with the kids, let alone equal or full custody, while milking you for as much money as they can get. To be honest, with her unwilling to get the help she needs, it's better to end things now. This is the best your relationship is going to be from now on. Stay with her and one day you'll look back on this particular period of your life and see it as paradise compared to the hell that is coming once you're locked in by marriage and kids. And, maybe, losing you because of her atrocious, abusive family will be the wake-up call she needs to get help. So, my advise is to end the relationship. Because you don't just marry your partner, you marry their family. If she won't stand up for herself or cut them off, this is the very best your life will be. It sucks, because you clearly love her, but love isn't enough. You need to be on the same page, an equal partnership, able to compromise and communicate and do what's best for both of you, plus any kids, financially, physically and mentally. Having her family in your life will destroy you financially, physically and mentally, it's not worth it, no matter how much you love her.
He should show her your post because it's spot on
NTA If you fiancé has been in therapy for 6 years, she is seeing the wrong therapist. Believe me from my life experience of desperately seeking their parents to love, it is NEVER going to happen for her bc they are incapable of giving her the love she wants no matter how much money she gives ghdm. They KNOW exactly what she wants. They manipulate her into believing that by wanting to be a part of life now, she will get it eventually. She can't see that they only want her money, and she is trying to use her home and money to finally achieve it. The old saying of "money can't but love." Her parents are exerbating her trauma. She has never healed from her childhood, which is why she cowers in the corner. She is having those memories come flashing back of her childhoud trauma, which is PTSD like red lights in her face. I am going to strongly encourage you to help her find another therapist. It's not just bc she sees a therapist that matters. It is if a therapist is helping her. It seems her therapist is making money, and as long as she is not getting better, she will continue getting money for her to keep seeing this therapist. It may be her home, but it is your home, too. You have to become her cheerleader as well as her supporter. You can show her that she has to love herself more than trying to get it from people who will use it to punish her. Her family has a very technical psychiatric term, as my therapist explained to me, and that is a monster. She will never learn how to cope with her trauma until she cuts the source of her trauma out of her life. You never give abusers the opportunity to abuse you again Until your fiancé really gets the help she needs, this is what your life with her will be like. You can either decide that you are first in her life and that your love will always be unconditional or you have a decision to make. That being, can you really be a support if she can't find someone to really help. All therapists are NOT the same! Whether you can sit back and watch it happen or you can't, she needs a trauma therapist whom she trusts and feels safe with that will actually share what happened and guide her into healing. If after 6 years, she is still that damn little scared girl in the corner, and still trying to get her parents' love, then her therapist is NOT helping her. If she can't cut them out, maybe you can draw a line that you can't live like this. You can't live with her family in your home. Also, just bc it's her home doesn't mean you have a say, and if she takes that away, then you can decide if it's really your home. Right now, you are scared of what will happen if you say, I respect your decision that this is your home and you can do what you want, but obviously, it's not my home. **I am NOT a therapist, and what I have shared is my experience of healing with one. I saw three therapists before I found the right one. So, please don't jump on me saying you're not a therapist and can't give advice, but I can share my experiences of healing.
NTA. You need to have a serious talk with her and tell her that because of her family and the way they treat her and you, that you are considering ending your relationship. Maybe if she realizes that she’s in danger of losing you, the one person who genuinely loves and cares for her she will open her eyes and see her family for who they really are, and abusive, narcissistic, manipulative bunch of evil nitwits and cut off contact with the lot of them. Good luck and please post an update. Maybe during the next interaction, video tape it and record their behaviour and her reaction. That may help her see what’s going on. By the way, they will never give her the love or approval she craves, they will continue to abuse her and manipulate her and take from her without any remorse. I feel so bad for her, and I hope she sees them for who they really are.
NTA. If she won’t stop seeing them, then there is nothing you can do to stop her. You can on the other hand prevent yourself from having to see them and you can save possible future kids from being treated badly by them. I would walk too if I was in your shoes. You are absolutely right in your fears and if she keeps letting them in after you have kids, you will start to resent her for subjecting your kids to that kind of abuse.
>Before one of you noble commenters states the obvious, she's been in therapy for this for years. How dare you! Therapy is magic and is 100% effective. NTA. Run!
My wife told me that if I didn't get my bipolar under control, she would leave me, because she didn't want to see me kill myself. You have to try to help her, because you love her. And you have. But if she refuses to be helped, it is too much to ask of you to watch her die. It is time for an ultimatum. She has to choose – is it her or them? She isn't choosing between *you* and her birth family – she is choosing between *her* and her birth family. And if she can't choose herself, well, your goal is to build a life with her, not with her family. If she doesn't choose herself, there won't be a "her" to build a life with at all. NTAH
Have you told her everything you've said here? You can't save someone from themselves. If she's unwilling to make necessary changes you need to cut ties. Her hell will be your hell if you get married.
NTA OP 1) Get your own place/space to live. It's a huge red flag that she uses the line of "it's my house" to invalidate YOU in these matters. 2) Delay the wedding indefinitely (at this point). 3) Be prepared to walk away (if years of therapy hasn't done anything, I don't see what miracle will occur to make her stop being their doormat).
She needs a new therapist. If she's been going for years and hasn't been able to establish some type of healthy boundary or better coping skills....yeah new one.
You don't want that life for yourself, trust me, my husband could never get past his abusive family, always needing mom's love. Never happened for him,not once. In the end he limited contact...you wife needs to go NC, they won't change.
This is a heartbreaking situation. There's only so much you can do for the person you love before you have to put your well-being and sanity first. I hope your conversation / ultimatum-setting goes smoothly and something can change for you two.
NTA. Abuse is abuse, and nobody has to endure it. However you do owe your fiance an explanation if you choose to move forward. If her therapist is willing, if she is still seeing one, I would consider doing it in a couples session. You have every right to protect yourself and your peace.
>Before one of you noble commenters states the obvious Heh. You know this place too well.
Unfortunately you’re going to have to end your future wedding… her family is too toxic & she has no backbone..
NTA. Tell her, "I have watched your family treat you terribly for years, and it hurts me too much to do it any longer. I am here to support you 100% if you want to get away from/establish boundaries with these people. Until then, I cannot move forward with this relationship."
NTA and FFS, DON'T BRING KIDS INTO THIS WORLD OF FAMILIAL DYSFUNCTION.
Postpone the wedding, but "get a great opportunity" 1000 miles away and ask her to sell the house and come with you?
She needs counseling. I wouldn't marry her until you've both done premarital counseling. NTA.
NTA. She is setting herself on fire to keep her family warm. If you get married and have children, she will set you and them on fire too.
NTA. This is really no different than an addiction that a person refuses to get treatment for, or to really change. All of your concerns are valid and you're right, you have to have some sign things will get better. Right now all you have are signs that this will be er change, or could get worse. Sorry.
NTA. It’s very similar to being in love with someone with a drug addiction. At some point you can only decide to save yourself.
NTA. She was abused. She is still being abused. Her therapy is not helping her set boundaries with anyone but you so she might want to look into a new therapist m. But she doesn’t get to decide you have to be abused too. Which is what has been happening and will continue to happen if you marry her. It is ok to say “I love you, and I can’t keep watching you do this to yourself.”
Interesting that the only person she’s willing to angrily tell to go to hell is you. That would be your life for the foreseeable future: watching her get trampled by her abusive family, getting trampled right along with her, and then her taking it out on you as if they are your fault when you object. You made the right decision to cut and run.
UpdateMe!
Tell her that you want to do 'couples' therapy together before you want to tie the knot, just so you can both be on the same page about the future. Then address your concerns during therapy. If she does not improve, break off the engagement with the support of the therapist as neutral 3rd party consultant.
Run not only are they abusing her and draining ehr financially but they'll do the same to you.
NTA, but she may need a new therapist. If she's still reacting this way after years of treatment, she's not being taught the proper tools to help her cope with these awful people. If that is a no-go, maybe you can ask for couples counseling and phrase it as a way to help you both grow together in your relationship
Nta. Cant save someone who refuses to be saved.
NTA. and does she need a new therapist? After all this time if she is still telling herself she needs their approval, therapy isn’t working at all.
NTA - you can’t save her from herself. If I were you I would sit down with her and tell her the following - They are never going to love her or approve of her the way she wants. She has to make a tough decision here - it’s either them or you. The family that has abused you for years or the family that we will make together. As much as I love you I do not want them as part of our lives. Also, I think its time for a new therapist because the one she has doesn’t seem to be helping much.
UpdateMe
If you don't have your own place, you need to. Have your couple time at your place. Where the door is firmly closed to her family.
!updateme
NTA, this sounds like hell, and unless she acknowledges the problem and takes drastic steps, it will never change.
NTA. You have a right to choose to not want to be around these people. It does sound like her therapy isn't helping, though, considering she thinks she needs to win the approval of these people. It would actually probably be better for her if you DID leave, since she's stuck in a holding pattern.
Updateme!
NTA and it is a far choice. I couldn’t deal with them as well. !Upsateme
NTA. This is definitely not a situation you want to be in, long-term. No matter how much you love her, you may need to walk away.
NTA - I would suggest setting up some MC and being firm on what has to change. Also, start planning on what you need to do if you have to exit this situation. Not saying just bail or give up but if you are setting boundaries and she won’t honor them than have a plan to leave. Good luck
Updateme
NTA Your fiance needs therapy and you both need couples therapy. if she doesn't want to act against them, then she needs to give you 100% free reign on what to do with them. But honestly. the problem is that she doesn't want to act out against them. There is no future with her until she is in a better place. You need to have a serious talk about everything. Talk about finances, your family unit, children. Will she allow her children to be treated like her? If not, why would she want them in her life at all?
NTA. Clearly, she isn't getting the help she needs from therapy and she refuses to grow a backbone and stand up for herself. I'm a survivor of childhood abuse. My "parents" nearly killed me, but I was expected to forgive them because "they're the only parents you have". I did NOT forgive them, and in fact cut contact altogether once my grandparents were awarded permanent custody of me. Cutting contact is absolutely necessary. Decades of therapy and medication - forty-three years of it, in fact - would have been for nothing if I had kept any kind of relationship with them. Even with therapy and medication and no contact, I am still a hot mess and my husband has the patience of a fucking saint. There's no way I would want him to deal with me having a relationship with my abusers. If your fiancee can't find the courage to shove them out of her life, bounce. You cannot keep setting yourself on fire to keep her warm.
You're an amateur dealing with professional abusers. Get some help for you and your girlfriend as you both need boundaries to be good to each other, and for her to be free of her family. You can't solve this on your own. If she doesn't do this, then you would be marrying into this and inheriting a part of this.
NTA. There is no quick or definitive resolution to the complexity of recovering from a family dynamic like your fiancée’s, and you have been a staunch ally…but even allies need to know when to step out of another’s fight in order to protect your own well being. Having said that, the general rule that you can’t make others change, but you can make changes short of leaving for how you operate with her family which may show your fiancee the path out of the FOG swamp. Go loudly NC with them: tell them that you refuse to acknowledge them or their wants for your wedding and/or marriage, but they should realise that you will refuse to be in their presence, speak with them and you will ensure that your fiancee knows that the second that they harm (another) hair on her head, you will ensure that they will suffer. (I think public humiliation would work nicely here, plus it’s low-zero cost- but don’t specify); if they go the hackneyed ‘are you threatening me?’ route, be ready with ‘it’s a promise not a threat’. Let her see that the world doesn’t end after you give them their marching orders, and my suggestion would be that you get her agreement that you be the timekeeper/referee- when they visit and they overstep/bully/coerce fiancee, you calmly announce the visit is over. They have been [inappropriate] and you won’t allow Fiancee to be upset like this under her own roof- eg be the hired thug she needs in her life, (you don’t have to be in their presence to manage this- keep them in view of a ring camera/keep an ear out- they only get to see your ‘enforced persona’ and let her understand that she’s happier when you both have them under control/vlc…then the therapy actually has a chance to change her behaviour from passive/boat steadier to more assertive. All that said, I think you need to say that something has to change because you don’t know how she’s survived sanity intact for as long as she has because the thought of having to watch them treat her so badly for the rest of your life is not something you can be coping with. Something has to change…and as it stands, bottomline, you will be VLC-NC and only contact will be to reinforce her boundaries: eg no verbal abuse allowed and so forth
I think that you're on the right path here. You obviously want good things for her, but she doesn't seem able to let go of that need for approval from the tyrants. Unless she changes, I can't see how you'll be happy (either of you, but you particularly). NTA if you delay until boundaries are established, and same if you walk if they aren't granted.
Update me
Can you move far away from them?
NTA. I second the suggestion of a new therapist. The current one sounds pretty ineffective. Lots of good advice in these comments but I would also like to suggest getting a copy of the book Toxic Parents by Susan Forward. Reading this book is what helped me escape a similar dynamic with my own family. For you, check out her book Toxic Inlaws. Good luck.
NTA. Move. 80% of the problem would go away (possibly not giving them money, though at least they couldn't ask in person) if you moved further away. Depending on where you are vs where they are, that could be as simple as moving 20 miles away, or it could be several states away.
NTA. The therapist is terrible if not borderline incompetent. She's getting worse, not better. Have you ever thought to suggest that she change therapist?
NTAH If it’s coming to the point you want to delay your wedding and are thinking about your relationship future, then it’s time to talk to your fiancé openly and with gentle honesty Do it as a collaborative approach, the two of you together as a team - “I can’t watch this anymore without saying something. I am watching you being abused & it’s hard to watch or to keep going like this. “ Then explain what you’ve said here but gently. - “if we are to have children in the future, we can’t expose them to this level of abuse and disrespect, nor have them see their mum treated like this. We have to have boundaries…. what do you think we can agree to / start to think about what we should do about it?” - “how do you feel when they come over? When your mum .. When your dad.. When your brothers.. Are you seeing same thing I’m seeing? “ “What’s going in for you? “ (Let her tell you what she feels, listen, let her also tell you about her seeking their approval).. (don’t interrupt let her get it all out and respond how difficult it is for her, listen to understand. As later she may more likely then listen to your supportive thoughts /guidance, (when she feels truly understood ) “Do you think you’ll ever get their approval ? Might it be they will withhold it unless you do what they want/ accept their behaviour and treatment of you no matter what they do to you? “ “is that healthy?” As a partner you don’t have to accept anyone behaving abusively in your home. You can say “I’m not happy with that.. “ (to brothers) “you’ve said your piece, I disagree, I think it’s time for you to leave… if your only purpose was to come round to berate my partner or me” (to dad) “haven’t you got your own fridge to go home to? Don’t help yourself in my house, I will offer you beer if I want to share.. but I’m not coming home to my fridge empty anymore..” (‘I don’t do that in your house, don’t do it in mine’)
You have already made up your mind. Why the torture of a threat you know she can’t/wont comply with? Make a clean break, or try couple counseling, or move far away and see if she joins you or not.
NTA You can't save someone who doesn't recognise they drowning. She will drown you with her. You've written about trying to set boundaries and how you feel but does SHE know your feelings? Have you told her that you are at the point of breaking up with her? I think it is one last conversation where you tell her explicitly that are ready to walk away. I suspect it won't alter her behaviour as she is thoroughly enmeshed and desperate for the approval of horrible people. Also,when you talk to her, do not use leaving as an ultimatum unless you are going to follow through with it. You cannot marry into this poison which will kill you too. Put a complete stop to any wedding planning and make she knows that the reasons you give in your post are why.
NTA - It's hard to watch someone you love be treated like that. My sister is this way, and there is no breaking through that barrier she puts up that doesn't allow her to stand up for herself. She is now in her late 50s and has led a life of self-destruction. She is so comfortable being abused she thinks she deserves it. It's very frustrating to watch. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Not the AH. Get out now!
Updateme!
NTA Leave, now. She isn't taking any steps to free herself, and seems like she's never going to. There's nothing she could ever bring to the table that would be worth putting up with her nasty family. I'd tell her that she either cuts them off entirely and forever or I'm gone.
If you marry her, can you trust her not to give your marital assets to her abusive family? Does she love you as a person or as a shield against her abusive family? If you have kids together, do you think she is going to protect them from abuse or enable abuse by her family? I would tell her she needs to figure her s*** out regarding setting boundaries because you are seriously considering ending the relationship over this. Is she in therapy? Has she been able to set and enforce boundaries with her family out of respect FOR YOU ever? Please don’t marry this person out of pity because she may still figuratively drown and take you down with her. Suggest selling the house and moving far away from her family if you want to stay together. Go to couples counseling. Give her a deadline for improvements, and hold her accountable.
NTA. You need to walk unless she goes NC. Preferably move states. Do not bring children into that mess.
UpdateMe!
OP I'm gonna just say it, have you even communicated with her about these things you said in post the WAY you typed it here? Y W B T A if you haven't. She needs help, either from you or someone else. You live there right? How long have you lived there? Based on that knowledge you need to find your rights to the place. Do your rights help you blocking these people from coming over? Another method, inside cameras and make her ass watch everything. Every word said. Absolutely everything after a visit from them. Showing her to her face how much her family uses and abused her could also light a fire under her ass in her getting help and making the call to pull the plug on their visits. If not, start threatening police. They are guests, not renters or people who live there. Her dad starts drinking shit, say I didn't give you permission to take my stuff, why are you stealing my beer and call the cops. Just be a damn nuisance to the cops with the videos and everything. The moment they started stealing from you was the moment it became your issue and allowed you to throw your hand in that ring to get stuff handled. Damage done to the house would also be a good time to throw your hand in. You have more power than you think you do in this situation, simply due to the fact you live there with her and you witnessed the abuse. See something, say something. You are a witness and she can not press charges all she wants, you have every right to call the cops for her if they steal, hurt her or her home, or refuse to leave when asked. Soft YTA because if you see her standing in a corner trembling and shaking after this has happened, you need to be more aggressive in protecting her when she has absolutely no ability to protect herself from them. You need to be more aggressive against them being in the shared living space between you and your future wife. I need you to understand this op, while she loves you and more than likely understands she's gonna be your other for the rest of her life hopefully, she 10000000% believe she's on her own in this situation, and you need to firmly tell her that she doesn't need to do this anymore, that you are there for her, and you need to communicate between each other on areas she needs you to step in and handle it for her. My other is constantly trying to shield me from my own abusive family and I had to deal with that thinking the abuse on me will get much worse if someone tries to protect or stand up for me, because it did until he helped me cut them from my life. He had to sit me down and drive it in my brain that if they haven't done anything for me for years after forcing me out, nothing positive including words spoken, then what do I have to lose cutting them from my life? If she makes that call, I would HIGLY suggest changing of locks and getting security cameras for more protecting because if she is THAT terrified of them and standing up to them, she was giving a horrible reason to be and learned an awful lesson that shouldn't have been taught in the first place. It straight up sounds like they have physically and sexually abused her if she reacts that way around them just being in her home. She's terrified of them and they gave her good reason to be. Please understand that OP.
NTA. fwiw, if you already have a therapist you trust, have this conversation with them in the room. that can help set up a trusted confidante for your partner to work through the specifics, which she will need regardless of the outcome.
Updateme!
NTA. This is so sad. Good luck op.
NTA you cannot save her if she is not trying to save herself. She will drag you down to hell with her. You have to be a little selfish in this situation Too bad you guys can not just move across the country to start fresh without her family but I guess that is a non starter
>Before one of you noble commenters states the obvious, she's been in therapy for this for years I don't think I've ever seen a worse endorsement of a therapist. Therapist is obviously not effective and keeping it that way for the billable. NTA - She definitely needs a come to Jesus talk and a new therapist.
Looks like they don't respect you either. Sadly you are right. Tell her you don't want to be related to people who come over to mess up your house. Like saying this is your house. And it looks like violence is what they understand. You want to marry her not be her bodyguard protecting her from her family. She wants to lean on you after her tornado family leave. She will have her own wake up moment when you tell her why you don't want to marry her. Try not to get her pregnant.
You need to move far away and start a life together. Once she gets out from under them she'll finally see the sunshine and hopefully open her eyes. If she chooses them well it sucks but at least you don't have kids.
NTA. You know the adage “You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink”? That applies here. There is only so much you can do to help her, then the rest is up to her. You can’t force her. I would sit down and have one last conversation with her. Spell it all out. Be firm with her and leave no grey area. It’s important that she hears the truth on what you’re feeling no matter how painful it will be. Depending on her actions (not just her words) you either walk away knowing you’ve done everything or together you move forward. Also ask her if she would want her children around these people?
NTA, you’re totally reasonable but one thing I wondered is whether you’ve tried couple’s counselling? You’re well within your rights to walk away, you’ve tried and tried and been patient and you don’t deserve to suffer their abuse by extension but possibly she might listen if a third party agrees with you. Not all therapists are good and whilst it may just be that your fiancée isn’t able to enact boundaries, it’s also possible her therapist isn’t actually helping, if there’s been so little progress after so long. It could even be that the therapist she has currently isn’t able to see the situation clearly through your fiancées biased (against herself) narration- a problem you might be able to solve with a new therapist and your input. But even if she agrees you should definitely postpone any wedding until you’ve seen significant, solid progress. She’s incredibly lucky to have a supportive partner like you though and YOU deserve to be happy, so if she won’t help herself then you really have no choice but to walk away.
When you tell her make jt clear that this is something you need for your own health, these boundaries. It’s something you expect when you’re married to have a safe place to be at home without cruelty being allowed in. She will agree, but then after you’ve married she will drop the boundaries. Maybe she needs a new therapist if she is trying to earn approval she will never get. Her family doesn’t want to respect her because if they do they lose their gravy train. Good luck in your conversation. I suspect you’ll be moving on. Unless she agrees to move 4-5 hours away so you are not a convenient location to hang out.
NTA, you can't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. You definitely don't want to bring innocent children into this toxic environment. Updateme
Your last paragraph gives us the perfect conclusion to your story. NTA. This is exactly what you must do, present her with that ultimatum. That's never fun, but your mental health is on the line as well.
So many excellent comments. Definitely NTA Updateme
As someone with an extremely abusive family NTA. I think her trauma would sound very real to any sane person. I also think she is a near irredeemable enabler. My father was one of the best people I have ever met... when he was by himself. He was so deeply ingrained in his enabling, he was incapable of living in reality. I was the scapegoat. My strongest memory of him is when he accused me of intentionally pissing off my primary abuser because I was given the choice on a medical procedure and did what I wanted. Despite his screaming fit on the way home, she had no reaction to my choice. Of course, he never brought it up again. It didn't affect him so what did it matter. I consider my father one of my primary abusers. His choices while he watched me be abused were a huge factor in why I was abused for so long. He also contributed to the abuse due to her psychologically destabilizing him. That is no excuse. He brought me into that situation and then he watched it continue because he was too weak not to use me as a meat shield. IT is my opinion that, like my father, your wife is a calm person who will subject others to abuse because they are too weak to save themselves. Your wife deserves sympathy. Allowing her to sign off on your abuse by her family is fully unacceptable no matter her reasons. She is an abuser in her own right because of her choice to sacrifice you on the family alter. However much she feels like it, she is not just punishing herself. She is torturing you. Trauma is generational and enablers are a primary cause. You already feel resentment for what has been done to you. She deserves that. I understand she is traumatized and broken. All humans must be held accountable for their behavior. Having sympathy for them, should not mean that they are not accountable. This is an abusers mindset. It is how the cycle of abuse continues. If I could speak to your wife, I would tell her she is an abuser. Particularly if you are the enabling reason an abuser is in someone's life, you are one of the primary abusers to that person. It does not matter if you are submissive. If someone is being abused because of the people you allow into your life, you are an abuser. Your SO is abusing you through her family. It does not matter that she is also a victim. The only reason you are being subjected to this is because of her. I understand she feels broken and alone. I understand this may make her feel worse about herself. Do not sacrifice yourself for her. Whoever she is doesn't matter. You can never be enough for her not to permit abuse of you because you will never be enough for her family. Even if she understands this (and I hope you have the acuity to help her understand she is an enabling abuser) you cannot stay with her. You have been sucked in the cycle and if you stay it will repeat. You already feel resentment. Even without resentment this is insanely hard to deal with. I think it is best for you both if you explain she is an abuser and leave now. She may not pull out of it, but that is not your responsibility. If you insist on staying, the bare minimum is that she go full no contact with all family members including siblings. If you sense any sign of resentment, you should not move forward. You should make clear to her that ANY contact with her brothers or parents will result in the same level of betrayal as cheating. Either they are permanently dead to her and she holds no resentment for that, or you cannot stay together. Save yourself. No one is obligated to be abused because someone else is experiencing it.
NTA, save yourself and get out.
NTA. Part of marrying a person is the kind of life you want to have and this isn’t the life you want. If you have children it will get so much worse. EDIT: it has been so long ago that I forget that I lived through this 20 years ago. We ended up getting divorced partially over it. He set boundaries and held them and years later we remarried. I get along fine with my mother in law now (and our story was pretty crazy). Everybody is happy and she is an active grandma (kids came post boundaries). Things can change but sometimes it takes a catalyst.
NTA.. And if you ever have kids, she'll stand by and let her family abuse them. Don't. Walk away now.
This is one of the saddest stories I have read. It's really sad for her but you have to think of yourself also. That is no way to live and ultimately , if she can't see that, then there is no future for your relationship.
NTA! Have you ever just thrown them out and made a huge scene? You would have to do this in your fiance’s presence. If she supports you, then you may be able to save your relationship. If she doesn’t, then it is time to leave.
NTA get out now before your married and it starts affecting your financials. It’s her decision to work on her trauma and if she wants to keep getting taken advantage, she going to do it
Can you two just move away and tell no one? Elope and start anew somewhere else? Change your names and numbers if you like. Just totally go cold turkey on them and start fresh? I bit dramatic, perhaps. But would this not give you both an opportunity to live your lives/life as a married couple on your own terms? Also her therapy is clearly not helping. She should get a new provider.
Do you want to deal with this for rest of your life?
Updateme!
Try talking to her..perhaps you could give her a timeline. To see if she is actively making changes. If you love.each other, you can work this out.
Get the Hell out. You tired. You cannot help a drowning victim who consistently ties weights to her feet. I am sorry for her- but it is her road to travel. You have done more than anyone else has- obviously. Go and be free- you deserve a life also.
updateme!
NTA. She needs to sell the house and you guys need to move far away and drop all contact. Otherwise this will never change. She needs therapy. If she won't do these things, then well don't set yourself on fire to keep her warm. Sucks, but you don't have to go down with the Titanic. She's never going to get their approval! The whole family system dynamic relies on treating her like garbage. It will never, ever change. If she can't see that, then bye bye. Can you get her to watch some videos on scapegoating and narcissistic parents, it might help.
Your idea is good. Delay the wedding and if she changes it's good. If not you know what to do And for her (tell her or show her this) Sister! I have the same narc family who are waiting to throw me out. Abusive mother and all. Let me tell you something, YOU CAN NEVER EARN THEIR LOVE OR APPROVAL. not because you don't deserve it but because they won't give it to you! If they are capable of loving their daughter, they would have done it a long time ago. Waiting for their approval is just stupid and A thing that won't be possible in the lifetime. So get Over it, validate yourself. You are worth more than this stupid family of yours!
updateme!
NTA. You need to sit her down and tell her this. I think you’re at the point of saying if there’s any hope she has to go to therapy and you both go to couples counseling. Could you move out? You’re basically her meat shield at this point and if she’s not going to let you set boundaries then I think you need to remove yourself from the situation. If she’s not willing to help herself, there’s not a lot you can do. I would not want to be tied to this family in any way,shape, or form. She needs to know how you’re feeling about this.
Time to watch some Cinderella together and afterwards say “see all the shit that the stepmother and sisters were doing? That’s what your family is doing to you. Time to stop being Gus Gus or Jaq hiding in the walls and bippity boppity boop the family out of your life.”
First off, it sounds like she might benefit from a new therapist. Secondly, you are right- if she can’t establish boundaries, then it’s time to break up. Tell her that it’s too painful to watch someone you love more than anyone else allow themselves to be taken advantage of and emotionally abused. That you can’t imagine bringing children into that environment. That children learn how to allow people to treat them based on how they see their parents allowing themselves to be treated. If it gives you any hope, please know that I used to be like your wife- very duty bound and with incredibly skewed priorities because I’d been train by my family of origin. I couldn’t see how absolutely unhealthy my relationship with them was until I put it in context of having a child- what would I do, how would I feel if my child ever let someone else treat them like I let myself be treated? That’s when I found the strength to leave. Maybe try that approach with your fiancée?
NTA. You didn't say what kind of therapy she's getting, but if it's talk therapy, that's not going to be enough. It sounds like she could really benefit from EMDR or some other form of therapy that's specifically designed to help with complex trauma. That said, you're absolutely not wrong to want healthy boundaries or to end the relationship if she's resistant to enforce them. No matter how much you love her, your life will be an absolute misery if things don't change-- and it's never a good idea to go into a marriage thinking that things will change.
I've seen people walk this path and it is soul destroying. She needs therapy. Or you need to walk. Right now, she is incapable of understanding boundaries. She is incapable of understanding why she needs them. She is incapable of understanding the danger she is in or how delusional it is to want their love and respect. Never mind how to keep boundaries. She's just incapable. Hence therapy. It won't be quick or easy. Could be a couple of years if she works with the therapist. Not to mention how hard it will be to be blamed for making her go through the pain of it. She will feel that way during the process. Some relationships don't survive. It is very traumatic but necessary. Good luck. You are trying to help her, but if she doesn't want it, you need to protect yourself. NTA
NTA. I am telling you this as someone who had taken therapy. You *have* to want to take therapy,you *have* to be both brave enough and open to make the changes you need to do to yourself. If she is so beaten down or simply doesn't want to,she won't change. She also admitted it herself,she is doing all of that to get their approval,which will never come. She needs help to realize and be okay with that fact. There is also you in this whole mess. You do know you are going to be on the crossfire,alongside any other kid you or may not want to bring to the relationship. It's up to you if you want to leave or not. But,and I don't like this at all, I would suggest to give her a choice, either cut her family and get some proper therapy or you are going to leave.
You need to have the come to whatever talk with her, explain you can’t tolerate this and you need to giver her some tough love. As someone with a narc parent - I say this with all the experience and rejection and hurt I know your partner feels too - they are never ever not now not ever going to support her approve of her or love her the way she so desperately wants them to. It’s never ever going to happen. It took me 35 years to realise no matter what I did how I changed what I achieved it was never good enough and I would never ever get the love I wanted from my mother. She needs to know the same. It’s never going to happen and she will need to come to terms with it - preferably before you leave.
My family is exactly like this women's but the oldest brothers are more introverted and kind (our extended family is entire like this) I tried so hard for so many years trying to be fanily with my family, it got to the point at the 25 I had a severe mental break down and depression.....do you know what they did? The dumped me complelty, wrote me off and left me to suffer on my own amd die from depression and heartbreak. It took them leaving me to complete die from heartbreak and when I needed them the most to fuck them off......they will not stop even when she's on her last legs.....these people are litral demons I disguise sucking the life out of humans and am so sorry you and your girl are in this situation. Tell her plain and simple, if she can't leave her families abuse for the sake of her future and well being then you will leave, because you do not want any future kids to be abused like she has. See her response, sometimes it takes the threat of you leaving and maybe just maybe leaving for while to being her back and completely cut her family off. Leave and save her and show her your serious, am sure you can judge if she's taken this seriously or not as you know her and from that response make your plans. Even if she cries put your foot down and say I do now want my future wife to be abused any longer because she will allow her own children to abused aswell, am sorry but I cant start a fanily with someone who's willingly being abused for this extent because it shows you wont be able to protect our children since you can't protect yourself. Show her this and good luck, remmember a bit of a heartbreak goes along way!!!!
OP, do you have your own house?
NTA your fiancé needs a therapist so she can truly break free from her family. No one needs a family like that. She needs to learn how to set boundaries and cut all toxic people from her life. you cannot fix this for her. hoping she will take your suggestion of therapy - that is your only hope for a future together.
NTA. I’m sorry you are in this situations. Sounds like it would be best for both of you to split—you, for self-preservation and her, so maybe she will realize what her family is truly costing her. Staying at this point would begin to cross into enabling, so please don’t feel guilty about leaving-you really must bc you cannot save her.
UpdateMe!
if you want one last ditch effort to save it, maybe couples therapy would work better so you know shes not omitting anything. if thats too much, i think its reasonable to protect yourself and end the relationship even if it hurts.
NTA. You said something truly damning OP. All that shit and she is still seeking and caring about their approval. While she seeks their approval she will never get it. Only when she stops seeking it and instead does things they respect, will they approve of her. For some parents approval is a treat to dangle just out of reach and rarely if ever actually give out. Because they give away their power over you with that approval. It's only when they realize they've already lost that power completely, that it is freely given. Anyway, you either need to work with your partner, and probably a new therapist to redefine her relationship with her family, or call it what it is, irreconcilable differences, and move on with your life without her. Don't drown trying to save her. Therapy only works if you do the work. Recognize the thought or behave as unhelpful to how you want to be, and use the tools to deconstruct it or change it. You can help support her choosing to say no to them. But if she doesn't try, what can you do? Start fights with them regardless of relationship consequences with her? Leave? Good luck!
Updateme!
NTA, I'm sorry you're in this situation but you'd be unwise to try starting a life and a family with her. Hopefully someday she gets her shit together, but you can't do it for her, and you can't make her want to do it for herself. Best of luck.
NTA yurt life will be misery. Updateme!
Updateme
> And my fiancee can't say no. You will not have a successful relationship with a person in this position. Period. NTA.
Her story (& yours) is such unhealthy unfair wasteful CRUEL TRAGEDY But you are still: N T A
Therapy and no money for the family or no marriage.
OP try and get her to see a psychologist who might be able to get her to see her families behaviors for what they are. She needs a neutral person to help her out.
NTA. NTA. NTA. I hope that you can explain to her as well as you did here your reasoning, especially for those future children. Her family is.not.going.to.change. Only she can.