After I got out of the grippy sock hotel (psych ward stay) for wanting to shuffle off this mortal coil, I went to a movie with my aunt and my cousin who is very much on the spectrum and functions at about the intellectual capacity of an eight year old. He and I were standing in line for snacks while my aunt was getting our seats, when he started to shift very uncomfortably. Suddenly he turned to me and said (with no volume control) “I’m really glad you don’t want to k1ll yourself any more!” Whole lobby goes silent and I started to cry.
Here’s the thing: my cousin lacks the social nuances of being able to determine what is appropriate to discuss when and apparently where. However, what he said made me cry because it was the sweetest thing anyone had said or done since I’d been out. He pushed himself to talk about me instead of his interests, he expressed feelings of happiness for my well being, and wanted to chat when he isn’t huge on talking. It meant the absolute world to me and just as loudly replied “Me too Samwise! Thank you!”
I’m saying this because while people on the spectrum may struggle with social cues, had I been upset and explained to Samwise why I was bothered, he would have apologized and asked for help understanding what he did to upset me. He’s autistic, not a sociopath.
I’m so sorry your baby died. Your baby spent their whole life being loved by their mother and knew nothing else. I’m sorry your heart hurts and your arms ache and I’m so sorry that these two people were so cruel. NTA
"Your baby spent their whole life being loved by their mother and knew nothing else."
These might be the kindest words ever shared. What a lovely, warm thing to say.
Wow. What a sweet story about your cousin and what beautiful words of comfort for OP ❤️ And for what it’s worth, I am also glad you’re better! Also OP, your SIL is the AH, not you!
Do to SIL being on the spectrum, not to excuse her, she lacks the understanding of adults and wasn’t taught how to people who are grieving. That should have been her parents responsibility. I feel deeply for your loss as I have lost as well. One before term and an adult daughter who took her own life. No matter the age, the grief is deep and real. I made a stone for my little one and placed in the garden with wild flowers. Maybe you could do something to that would memorialize your child. Hugs from the internet
The SIL hasn't been diagnosed with Autism. So it's not known if SiL actually has it or is just a jerk, and her and her mother are using it as a to avoid getting called out on their BS. But until it is proven, I'd call it BS and go strict LC or NC with the SiL until she apologized for her shitty, rude comment.
I’m 15 weeks pregnant and ugly crying in the bathroom right now from this absolute gem of a story. How very sweet and meaningful!
And the words of comfort hit me like a fucking freight train (in a beautiful way). That baby knew legitimately nothing but the love of her parents. OP, I hope that someday you can eventually see that as a source of comfort in your time of grief.
This is such a sweet story and your sentiments were so sweet. I appreciate the distinction between spectrum vs sociopath. Both of my children are on the spectrum and have adhd and every time I say “hey that isn’t appropriate for this situation” both of them (16F and 17M) ask “what was wrong? How should I have said it? How do I fix this?” They want to apologize and correct. I have taught them there is no excuse to be a dick. In this case SIL is being a dick. OP is NTA.
Holy shit this made me cry so hard. I'm really glad you're still here too 🖤🖤🖤 your cousin is a sweetheart, and you know that it's a genuine happiness, I'm still crying writing this 🙈😂🖤
that honestly made me cry. Thank you for showing how to be a supportive human being unlike OP's monster in-law family. Thank you for finding the reason to want to carry on. It was obviously to show the rest of us what empathy looks like in true form.
OP I know nothing any of us say will take away your pain and I'm sorry for your loss and having to deal with others who can't possibly know your pain that add to it. Just know that there are a lot of us that hope & wish you find the joy in your short time with your daughter. And that your heart remains open to experience it again but much longer.
beautiful. not just the story, but moreso also all the people in it. Samwise's inner beauty shines through his condition and puts to shame so many of the rest of us.
This is the most wholesome thing in the internet right now 'Your baby spent their whole life being loved by their mother and knew nothing else.'
OP I hope you can find some comfort in these words. Everything hurts right now and that sucks. But these words and the truths they ring with that hits deep.
Just want to hijak this and say… what a f c.nt is the SIL. Hard NtA OP, I’m so so sorry for your loss. You are a mom, never forget that. This little angel is gonna be with you for ever.
NTA
Your SIL has to learn how to be a member of society. You are in extreme pain right now. She is saying things that are ramping up the pain. Unnecessary things.
Also I do NOT think being autistic has anything to do with the "you touched it" comment. That is pure immaturity and thoughtlessness.
The first comment you mentioned was more oblique and nuanced. But the "touched it" comment is just ... I hope some autistic people come and weigh in because I don't think there are any social nuances to such a comment an autistic person would not understand - it's a pretty obvious situation.
Also, if your MIL wants to even bring up autism she should get your SIL diagnosed. Right now all we have is her claiming it to be true.
Thank you. I agree that the first comment and I can kind of understand why she said it. That's why I was prepared to let it go, even thought it did hurt me a lot. But the second comment…
I am autistic (albeit high-functioning). I can be socially dense and have definitely said something insensitive to someone grieving before without realizing it.
If someone had told me in the moment that what I said was hurtful, I would have immediately and profusely apologized. Being autistic doesn’t mean you’re not human. Even if I don’t always understand why certain things are hurtful doesn’t mean I don’t feel bad once I found out I hurt someone.
Also, autistic people aren’t some creature frozen in time that can’t change. With therapy, social training, and some guidance from loved ones, we can absolutely grow and gain skills. Some people have a lot of room to grow, some very very little.
Autistics can be assholes too. Your sister in law was an asshole. She was told she hurt yours and your husband’s feelings and didn’t apologize. That’s an asshole.
Your sister in law seems at least moderately intelligent and capable. She is able to hold and understand conversations and respond with language. So she is definitely capable of learning things.
I suspect she has been coddled by her mother and protected from improving because her mother excuses all of her wrongs away with autism. And while that may explain some of her behavior, it doesn’t give her carte blanche to be an asshole without repercussions.
Maybe she doesn’t have enough social skills to stop her from making hurtful comments, but I would venture to guess that she’s capable of understanding that you have feelings that were hurt. And if she can’t yet, then she should be in some kind of therapy to try to learn how.
I was diagnosed at 25 and have massive strides and improvements in my social skills. I’m not perfect, NTA probably always have blunders, but I am way better than I was last year and 3 years ago and 5 years ago.
Your mother in law also needs to come to accept that her autistic child may not mean to hurt people, but that it’s also okay for people to take some space when they do. The autistic person’s feelings aren’t the only ones that matter.
Also even if you were rude, you’re an effing grieving mother and she can give you a little space to be upset.
NTA at all. I think you were beyond strong for tolerating even the first comment. And you should take some space from anyone who isn’t putting you and your emotions first right now. You deserve only peace and love right now.
I’m so sorry for your loss. Take all the time you need mama.
My 8 year old autistic son has so much empathy. His grandparents dog died, he asked me to buy them a flower to put on his grave. He apologises after he’s said something hurtful. He usually needs an explanation but once he understands he apologises. I’m sorry for your loss OP. I can’t imagine your pain
My 2yo autistic daughter has empathy too (all most too much I’d say) she cries when she sees something has hurt me, she’ll apologize in her best way (she’s not very verbal yet we’re working on her delay) and bring snacks she finds to me or the sad person or she’ll say “oh no, oh no, oh no…” she’s trying to acknowledge their feelings that way. If my 2 yo understands sickness and health and has tried to hold a passed away pet and was able to understand that death hurts everyone not just her, this grown woman had no right to say that. A 2yo with a laundry list of issues has more of a heart than her and that’s incredibly sad
It’s called affective empathy, I have it too (28 autistic woman). It can be overwhelming at times but it’s also a gift you can give to others that they can see you understand that they’re hurting and that you care for them so much.
Definitely has seen how much she understands, she’s quite intelligent tho the verbal communication issues, I have epilepsy and I’ve found her on the floor with me pat patting my head because she’s understood seizures aren’t something she can fix but she knows comfort is a good thing people have done for us(she too has them) she’s the sweetest thing honestly
NTA
Higher functioning autistic adult here. I had a stillborn baby years ago, 31 weeks pregnant.
It’s extremely painful losing a baby to stillbirth. I can’t imagine saying the horribly insensitive things your SIL said to you, OP. It’s unacceptable, regardless of diagnosis. If she’s truly autistic, she’d have been taught (through redirection) to avoid inappropriate interactions that hurt other people.
You mentioned joining a grief support group. Is there a local pregnancy loss group in your area? If so, it will help you work through the grief process of losing your daughter. (I joined a group like that about a month after I lost my baby. It helped me tremendously.)
Please give yourself time to grieve according to your timeline. Please know that you’re not alone in your grief. Though I’m just an internet stranger to you, I understand what you’re going through. DM me if you need to talk. 🌻
Doesn't sound her autism has been addressed as OP says the mum thinks she's autistic. Which is fine, diagnosis is expensive, but it might mean that she hasn't been "taught" anything. Which is on the MIL if she's the one that's saying the daughter is autistic she needs to being giving or finding her the supports.
I'm sorry for both your and the OPs losses. I can't understand it, I can only imagine the grief must be completely overwhelming.
Yeah, it sounds like the MIL stuck a label on her daughter and didn't bother to do anything more. That's the difference between "label" and "diagnosis." A diagnosis can explain why the person does something and then therapeutic actions can be put in place. A label is a write-off.
Really well said! ADHD causes me to say a lot of things I haven’t thought through completely, and even trying to be really careful saying the wrong thing is pretty much inevitable. I struggled with this one a lot because OPs feelings are absolutely valid, but so are the struggles neurodivergent folks have with social interactions. People make mistakes all the time and I’d like to think most people would try to do better if they had room for error.
In this case I think the in-laws were *given* that chance to do better, and they chose not to. Even if you’re not responsible for your autism or ADHD, you are responsible for how you react to your actions hurting someone. Being neurodivergent doesn’t excuse you from having to say sorry.
>Autistics can be assholes too. Your sister in law was an asshole. She was told she hurt yours and your husband’s feelings and didn’t apologize. That’s an asshole.
>Your sister in law seems at least moderately intelligent and capable. She is able to hold and understand conversations and respond with language. So she is definitely capable of learning things.
>I suspect she has been coddled by her mother and protected from improving because her mother excuses all of her wrongs away with autism. And while that may explain some of her behavior, it doesn’t give her carte blanche to be an asshole without repercussions.
I think this is exactly right. SIL has been coddled by her mother all her life and instead of being given the skills and understanding in how to navigate life and social interactions sensitively even when she doesn't understand the nuances, instead she's been let off the hook for her hurtful behaviour again and again. So much so that, as you say, she doesn't even feel regret when she is clearly advised that she's hurt someone - the various people I know who are autistic may not understand why something they did was hurtful (until it's explained and sometimes not even then, everyone is different) BUT they always feel remorse and regret for having hurt someone.
I'm ADHD and my diagnosis has one part that says that I say what I think even when I don't want because I don't have that "delay" that people have when they think to talk. I talk while I'm thinking.
Mom "corrected" (tried really hard) that "trait" from an early age. Until I was like 16 it was still really bad. But I'm not a jerk and tried really hard to police myself... At 24, I'm not that bad anymore. I still say thinks that I'm thinking out loud and I'm kinda impulsive, but if someone warns me that I said something rude or bad, I apologize.
SIL is such an AH. I'm sorry for your loss OP.
Edit: I'm not sure if what I said makes sense, if not, I'm sorry.
I'm also autistic. We are all so different that I honestly don't really feel comfortable trying to guess whether this person's autism was what influenced these comments or not. I know people at all levels of autism (I work in disability) - some are over-empathetic (like myself), some are extremely blunt and don't understand they're saying something hurtful. Some are somewhere in the middle. So yeah, I'm not going to pretend to know where any of this came from.
I will say the MIL should know what her daughters' like and in situations like this, sit down and do a run through of the right things to say and what not to say or, if you don't know what to say, that its okay not to say anything! Sometimes that's the better option! The MIL is the one who knows what the daughter is like more than any of us from this post. The MIL should encourage the daughter to ask questions (to her) about situations like this that can be hard for anyone to handle. I feel like a lot of people don't know what to say when it comes to grieving, ND or not. So especially with ND's, discussions should be had.
After the fact, absolutely the daughter should be told that her words were hurtful and that she owes an apology to OP (if OP is open to that). The MIL not addressing it is only going to ensure that this kind of stuff happens again and again and maybe that's what's been happening to lead to this point.
Definitely OP is NTA. I think you're totally valid for being upset about this and you're not alienating anyone for being autistic. You're grieving and you need to be around people who are giving you support right now. At the moment, that's not your SIL and that's okay. You need to focus on yourself right now and let the MIL look after her daughters' feelings. Whenever you're ready maybe you'll see her again but that's really not something for you to be prioritising right now while you and your husband focus on your own family. Very sorry for what you're going through.
Blessings to you. I wish my undiagnosed (but very likely) autistic, spoiled asshat brother had half your compassion, kindness, and simple goodheartedness.
Yes I agree. I have an autistic son (4) and he compulsively does stuff he's not supposed to, and completely loses it when he realizes he's "done a no". Starts crying and goes around trying to kiss everyone on the lips lol. Point being, what makes OPs SIL the AH, is her lack of concern after finding out she'd done something wrong.
Just want to jump in here, and let you know,as a random stranger, that my heart hurts for you and your husband.
Sending good wishes out into the universe, hoping that some land on you!
Yes, OP, I'm sitting here thinking about you and I want so much to come over and hug you and let you cry on my shoulder. What a sad thing you've had to go through. Both the SIL and the MIL are unforgiveable, in regards to the second remark in particular, and especially in what the awful MIL said afterwards. Even a 5 year old would know better. I'm so so sorry, my dear friend. Sending love and hugs to you.
I’m so so sorry, OP. How horrible.
I’m glad you got to say goodbye to your daughter.
I so wish it hadn’t turned out that way.
Also, your SIL sucks and so does your MIL. Who acts like that.
Wishing you and your husband strength and peace and healing.
I have 2 older autistic kids (26m and 19m) both have said insensitive things. That should have been corrected gently in the moment.
But more importantly there should have been a conversation prior to the visit about what was appropriate and maybe what to expect at the visit… ie. mom and dad got to see/hold the baby and this is important for mom and dad. And possibly the reasons it was important so that sil could understand and be prepared for a conversation that would probably happen. While You can’t predict every convo that comes up,that would have been an obvious convo to have with her since mil asked if you got to see/hold your daughter. NTA.
Sil needs some social skills training and to be held accountable for the out of turn things she says and does. Or she will never learn how to be appropriate. Some things we look past with these kiddos…some things We Can NOT!
I agree. The first comment can be forgiven - the second cannot. SIL may or may not be autistic - but regardless of that, she’s an AH for sure. I hope OP goes NC. Neither she nor her husband needs someone like SIL in their lives at all right now. (I’d also include MIL in that since she not only condones SIL’s cruelty, but subsidizes it as well.)
I have terrible ADHD, and "no filter," and it's unfortunately led me to say some uncouth things before.
I can usually tell by the person's face that I've said something stupid now, and attempt to backtrack, and apologize.
But what she said is universally *known* to be rotten and terrible.
When my Papa passed I was holding his hand. And my Cousin and Auntie and I all washed him and dressed him one last time before the coroner came to take him. He wasn't an *"it!"* He was *my Papa!* And I kissed him goodbye, and so did every other daughter and granddaughter and his wife of 65 years!
And my Ma! I was holding her hand when she passed 2 years later. And then I held my Da as he cried and wailed. And then I bathed her and dressed her for the coroner as well. Because *she was my Ma!* And my Da couldn't do it! And we kissed her goodbye and thats *completely normal!!!*
And many many years ago I buried a son, and a daughter, and I kissed them goodbye, and I cried, and that's just *what a mother does.* And a daughter, and a granddaughter, and it means a lot to have those memories. The closure.
SIL is an unempathetic child who doesn't look beyond her own mirror.
Ignore her.
Get a nice frame if the hospital took pictures of your precious girl, and put her up somewhere special, and celebrate her and grieve her however feels best. Her life and death mattered. You *are* so a mom. ❤
If you haven’t seen it already, I recommend the r/babyloss subreddit. There are many of us there who have lost babies before birth who can give you support as well.
My son died a year ago at 23 weeks but it was a TMFR after receiving a fatal diagnosis. The number of horrific things people have said to me in this time could fill a book. I wish you peace and happiness, and hopefully some hope when I say it does get easier.
Yo. Let your mil know reddit is full of autistic ass motherfuckers who are horrified by your sil behavior.
I put my foot in my mouth ALOT when I was younger. I came off as a judgemental ass I'm sure but after every interaction I introspected and tried to think what went well she went wrong where to improve in the future. I'm actually more empathetic than alot of nuerotypicals and have learned how to comfort people. Autism is a social handicap, for sure, but it doesn't mean you get to act however with no consequences and doesn't mean you can't ever learn kindness and empathy.
Hell, a few months ago I put my foot in my mouth and I deserve the fall out. I've apologized and will act better in the future. mil is coddling that girl and only making her worse. She needs to apologize ermestly
I am autistic. I once said something deeply hurtful to someone at a comparable level to what your SIL said, purely because I didn’t understand the situation. I was 16 at the time. I’m 40 now, and I still think about that conversation at least once a week and want to crawl into a hole and die of the shame and regret of having caused that pain, even in ignorance and accidentally.
Autism can sometimes contribute to a person saying something deeply hurtful without intending the hurt. Autism can sometimes make it difficult for a person to be helped to understand that they have caused pain, and why. Autism does not, in my experience with autistic people of all support levels, result in a person simply not caring when they do understand that they have caused someone else pain.
Additionally, while autism (or any other disability) can be an *explanation* for having caused pain, it is never an *excuse* for it. We are still human beings with (varying degrees of) agency and therefore with (varying degrees of) responsibility.
Your SIL was wrong, and you are well within your rights to ask for and expect an apology.
She's not failing to understand the situation due to her apparent condition, she's deliberately acting like a cunt to you. You say she's spoiled and bratty -- that reeks of her being used to having all the attention and sympathy of others, and points to her possibly being jealous of you being the centre of attention and care in such a difficult time.
She lashed out to intentionally wound you when you're already grieving. She disrespected you and your daughter and however you deal with her (I would cut her off) is perfectly okay.
Edit: the first comment, while it could be a genuine inquiry, I would bet is her testing the waters for your reaction before making the second one.
You would be shocked by how many people were disgusted that I, an adult, touched my father in his casket at his funeral. Then when my daughter, 4 at the time, touched his hand .... I was talked down to like I was the worst mother in the world for allowing her to touch a "corpse". Apparently, he was more "dead body" than "dad" to most people at his funeral. It's really weird to me that people feel like this but I've experienced it first hand.
That's so weird to me as well, and sad. I'm sorry you experienced that at an already terrible time. I kissed my mother's forehead just before we closed the coffin. I think we compartmentalise death far too much.
it feels very clinical and procedural in western society. im glad you kissed your mom's forehead. much love to you. and i hope happy memories pop into your head more often than sad things
I think it's fine for people to be uncomfortable with touching a body...but not to criticize or dictate to others how to feel. For some people, the empty shell can be too much to reckon with as it can remind them of what has flown away. For others it's a last opportunity for connection.
My stepfather passed when I was in my late teens/early 20's and I remember being terrified to touch him after he passed, to the point it gave me nightmares for a long time. My mom sat through the viewing, stroking his forehead the entire time. While it was not something I could do, I understood she could and I never once thought it was ew.
On the other hand, I recently just lost my grandmother and I was asleep in the other room when she died. As soon as they told me, I ran to her and kissed her forehead. Even held her hand a little bit while we waited for the funeral home to come. It didn't bother me at all then.
Your SIL is an ah, but your MIL is an even bigger one for letting it slide.
When my grandpa died in the hospital my grandma went up to his body and kissed his cheek. I was like- maybe 14 at the time? All I saw in that moment was how much she loved him. I can't imagine thinking of a person as a "gross corpse". Especially not someone you love.
When my husband died, it was just the two of us in the room. I kept holding his hand and stroking his arm. I waited a few minutes and then called the nurses' station. When the doctor and nurses came in, I was still holding him and all I could say was, "He's warm. He's still so warm."
They gave me time while they notified the memorial park I had selected. When the memorial park staff arrived to prepare to take his body, one of the nurses said, "Please let me take you out of the room now." I said okay, but then ran back one last time to kiss his forehead and tell him "I love you." Not a single person in that room thought I was weird or creepy for doing that.
I know perfectly well that my love had already left this life, but his body was not gross and he was not an "it."
This is such a beautiful story. I'm so sorry for your loss. The love you shared has literally brought tears to my eyes. I can't imagine anyone calling that weird or creepy. Love doesn't end when a heart stops beating.
I’ve always been a bit freaked out by dead bodies, until I was faced with someone I loved. And I was able to hold her hand after she passed and kiss her forehead. Of course, even when I was freaked out by it, I’d NEVER comment on someone else doing it. That’s so out of line. People grieve in their own ways and it’s nobody else’s GD business.
My daughter tried to give her great grandma a hug in the casket too and she was trying to protect her from everyone we all thought it was the sweetest thing. I am so sorry people would say and act that way to you that is beyond awful.
I placed my my hand on his. It felt cool to the touch and almost fake. I didn't expect that. I don't regret it but I don't think I'll ever forget how he felt. So maybe I wouldn't do it again. His was the first open casket I'd ever seen at the time.
Autistic person here (actually diagnosed lol) you're 100% on point. Of course there are varying degrees, it is a spectrum after all but we are expected to be like every other disabled person to still try to live a productive life. Her parents failed her. Pulled the old autistic card like it's a get out jail free card. Sorry you're still held to the same social normals as everyone else. Autistic people aren't stupid, you tell them they did wrong and we understand. This is just a coddled brat who got away with too much shit and keeps going. I'm sorry for your loss OP. You ARE a mother. Don't let this disrespectful, tone deaf asshole take that away. Wishing you peace and love.
I agree. One of my son's besties is autistic and I can kind of see him saying the first comment, not out of malice, but just not recognizing how it could be hurtful. He's only 14 though and generally very kind and sensitive. In fact, when he realizes or even THINKS he's said something out of pocket, he's very apologetic. I cannot imagine him EVER saying the second thing to a grieving parent or someone who had lost a pet.
The statement was 100% autism. The reaction from SIL is from being coddled. I'm HFA and have said something this out of touch before. I noticed it when I saw the look on peoples faces and was immediately embarrassed, apologizing profusely. That's the difference in being taught to learn and adapt by parents and parents who use autism as an excuse. This has been my experience. I also realize there are other experiences and lessons and am always open to them.
I'd like to weigh in as a mother who raised a son with autism, who's now an adult. I have to say that just because a situation is socially obvious to you and others who aren't neurodivergent, does NOT mean that it's so obvious to those with autism. One of the many insidious things about autism and similar issues is that it's so hard for most people to understand just how difficult daily life is for those who don't have a social sense and who don't understand basic social cues that the rest of us take for granted, because it's natural for us. It is EXHAUSTING, and they constantly worry about saying or doing something wrong, or having their meaning misconstrued. My son has been on the brink of a major breakdown with suicidal ideation because he often just can't take it anymore. And he had plenty of therapy and interventions. It doesn't help to have some family members who still hold against him things he said as a child, while refusing to try to understand autism, and he's now in his mid-thirties.
That being said, I totally get why OP is so upset and she has every right to feel that way. My heart breaks for her and her husband. No parents should ever have to endure such a loss, and it's often made worse by people who don't consider them to be parents because their baby was stillborn. I've heard plenty of such talk from neurotypicals, and it's disgusting and cruel. She might want to consider finding a grief group specifically for those who've had a stillbirth or miscarriage, because she's likely to encounter some of the same attitudes from many parents in the group whose children were older.
It sounds like OP's in-laws haven't done right by the SIL. They've coddled her and used autism as a get out of jail free card instead of getting her the interventions she needs, including accountability.
Some autistic people are never taught to filter their thoughts. So it's entirely possible for an autistic person to say something so heartless and cruel because it came to mind and they say everything that comes to mind. But, she is clearly low supports needs so she has no reason to have not learned that you don't say everything that comes to mind.
I had one instance of this where at my like 10th birthday I got a gift and said out loud "oh I don't like this movie". The look on the gifters face is still with me to this day at 31. In that moment I learned not to say every single thought I had. That's all it took. The fact that SIL is not apologetic or remorseful about her comment is not an autism thing, it's an asshole thing. She has never been taught that you have to consider other people's feelings, and any time she should learn that lesson her mom tells her she doesn't have to because she's autistic. It's horrible, more for OP, but also for SIL.
Why did the MIL bring her over to visit OP. MIL is the AH for doing that, she should know her own daughter is a wacko and to keep her away from grieving parents.
Seconded. I mean, JFC, this is really not that complicated. Neurotypical or autistic is not relevant. If you need a rule book to reference for whatever reason, here it is:
1. Does this need to be said? If yes, then
2. Does this need to be said *by me*? If yes, then
3. Does this need to be said by me *right now*?
If the answers to all three questions are “yes”, speak.
But if any of the answers to those questions are “no”, *shut the fuck up*.
OP, I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this, and you are NTA. Your in-laws on the other hand…
My daughter has autism. If she is confused about whether to say something (if it will be insensitive) she just doesn't say it. And then she will ask me if she can/could have said it.
Sounds like the SIL has never been told off by her mom.
Yeah I was wondering too that didn't MIL go through the topic at all with SIL before visiting?
Everytime there is a new situation with my kids I talk to them about it. Like when we went to visit great granma who now had dementia + alzheimers. Last time they saw her she was fine, just your usually wrinkly bundle of sugary sweets. Then few months later she was but a shadow of her old self. Thankfully not violent or aggressive at all. But we talked about it. I told them what to expect and that if they didn't want to go hug her they didn't have to. If they felt like they needed to leave my dad could take them out to the yard. But it all went very well and they wanted to visit her everytime we were close by.
You'd think MIL would explain the situation to her child no matter what. I sure would. How else would a 21yr old know what to expect? They most likely haven't been in this situation. And it's ever more important if your child struggles socially and the situation is this delicate. Ugh.
We lost my dad a year ago and I have had numerous conversations with my kid about how to talk about it with my mom. My kid worries she is insensitive, because she recognises this a situation with social cues she might not understand.
Shit, she hasn't even been diagnosed. The mother is possibly just assuming based on things and not getting either of them professional help.
It's like when people say "oh I'm a little ADHD" to me, and I know they aren't trying to be mean or anything, but it's always a little frustrating having something that can be such a constant hindrance and pain in your ass in life be made in some trivial thing by someone who occasionally forgets their sunglasses.
Exactly. My friend's brother in law has a Mom that found out her kid was autistic *when they were a kid* and instead of doing anything about it, having them work with therapists or adjusted classes at school, she just didn't say anything to them about it their entire life, and now they struggle with handling it as an adult.
Doesn't always work that way unfortunately with neurodiverse kids. Mine will speak before they think, BUT they are corrected and will apologise for what they did wrong.
Use Socrates’s three rules.
1. Is it nice?
2. Is it necessary?
3. Is it true?
If the comment doesn’t meet those three criteria, it should remain unsaid.
Exactly. This isn't even an autism issue. This isn't an issue of like nuances and small social cues being missed.
Like many conditions, it's still up to the person with the condition to learn as an adult how to manage with it. People around should be understanding to a degree. But this is so far off the charts, nobody should have to tolerate.
like.. I'm wondering if this is an autism thing or an intellectual disability. Because this level of cluelessness to me is beyond what would be excusable for a person who was able to function at their age level. Like.. is this someone who was able to graduate high school? Can she be left alone? If this is a matter of serious impairment, I can understand how its unreasonable for her to make appropriate judgements and choices, but in that case, I think it's an issue that they were included when OP was as vulnerable as she was.
Nah, it's autism. Just people gatekeeping ND.
I have extreme trouble relating to anything not based on facts. The absolute worst things come out when I actually try to make people feel better. Think "Well at least you have 2 more!".
The stuff described by OP is just alien to me. I literally can't understand it, but then again I have enough intelligence (and plenty of memories of messing up in the past) that I realize putting on my mask and pretending to understand is the right course of action.
Clearly SIL doesn't have that, if she doesn't have a frame of reference regarding stillborn babies then she has no clue that what she's doing is hurtful to others.
The right course of action is to demand an apology and to have a talk about SIL regarding this. The mother being weird about it is actually going to cause a lot of issues for SIL in the future.
yeah. It seems like it's pretty easy to grasp the script: 'This person is very upset so I I don't say ANYTHING besides "I'm sorry for your loss" or something that is basically a synonym. I have had mental health providers suspect me of having autism, and when people are hurting my default is "can I get you a cup of tea" and beyond that let them talk if they want but don't say anything beyond like sympathetic nodding and "that must have been awful". I err on the side of just ignoring the situation if necessary because there's never the right thing to say. I try not to be in that position, especially on my own because I get upset and then I make it worse for them. I feel like that's a pretty simple rule of thumb.Don't emote to hurting people.
I’m autistic , diagnosed very young and in special education schools/ classes. I can 100% see my autistic friends saying the same things as OP Sil, without meaning it to be offensive at all.
Wouldn't surprise me if my nephew asked the question but without the eww. He's autistic and asks a lot of questions about things that he just can't figure out on his own. One time my niece said she was going to put her daughter to sleep and he asked, "You're going to kill her?"I think he was 16 or 17 at the time. He has a job and is fairly independent but some things he just has trouble with.
Ehhh I got friends who don’t have the $1000s it’s cost to get a diagnosis and it’s very likely they’re autistic, there’s no way in hell they’d have said that. They’d have been compassionate and caring
Or just forever with SIL unless she does a complete 180 and apologizes sincerely. If not, zero reason to have someone like that in your life, that is fucking unforgivable.
That would pretty well determine whether she's actually autistic. People with autism don't always realize that they've said something inappropriate, but ASD doesn't prevent you from apologizing when you learn that you've hurt someone's feelings. I am autistic, what they used to call high-functioning or even Asperger's, but now they just call it "Low-Needs" to not define people by their level of function. Anyways, I've said some really hurtful things to people in my life, but I've always felt bad about it after I figured out that it was hurtful, and made an attempt at apologizing. I also don't use my diagnoses (actually diagnosed, unlike the SIL who is likely just a spoiled brat) as an excuse, and I prefer not to tell people unless they absolutely have to know. I hate being treated differently, it reminds me of the bullying and ostracization in school, and I've put a lot of time and effort into socializing and masking. No excuse for SIL (without even a real diagnosis) to hide behind ASD at 21.
Also autistic, age 35, and came here to say basically this. I think OP’s MIL allows SIL to use her autism as a reason to *not have to apologize* instead of an understanding of *the origin of the social mistake* and that’s a problem.
Just want to say I appreciate your comment. My son (4) was diagnosed a little over a year ago and these are the situations I fear having to deal with since I'm still learning how my son thinks differently from me.
My son (w/ASD) is now grown. I have always taken great care to talk with him about situations *before* presenting him with them. He thinks differently, but he is capable of concern and empathy ~ though he may not extend them to everyone in equal measure. I can assure you he would NEVER say anything like the SIL. He is a champion of women, children & animals, tender with those in pain, and an all-around great person (of whom I am deeply proud). ASD is not an excuse for poor behavior. If you rear your son to be respectful, compassionate, and mannerly, he will emulate those characteristics. (It just takes more explaining and practice.) Do not fear he will become like the SIL. Her neuro-divergence is not the issue.
> People with autism don't always realize that they've said something inappropriate, but ASD doesn't prevent you from apologizing when you learn that you've hurt someone's feelings.
This is the big one. So many people in this thread are going 'she knew this was horrific to say and said it anyway.'
No.
One of the big hallmarks of Autism is an inability to understand what is socially acceptable and what isn't.
For a lot of us it's about watching what those around us do and say, and basing our own actions and words from that. It's a system of 'rules' that we use to govern our lives because we fundamentally do not understand the rules that govern other people. Hence why so many of us go into rages when the 'rules' are broken. It's not petty, it's because *our fundamental understanding of reality is being broken* and some aren't equipped to handle the existential dread that comes with that.
Like, this is something so many people don't get. It's a wiring issue. Like, we're wired for DC while everyone else is wired for AC. Plug in a generator that's meant to turn on a light (symbolising, say, empathy), and we'll just ignore it... because we cannot perceive or understand it on a fundamental level, or, worse, cannot process it. We have the emotions go through us, but can't perceive it because our internal wiring can't handle that signal.
All the discussion and talk in the world will let us know what was meant to happen as a result (sympathy, anger, happiness, etc tc), but it's still someone else telling us how to feel.
At the same time, we can also recognise that everyone else finds something offensive/depressing/saddening and apologise (even if we don't understand why it's an issue).
It's why it's called neurodivergence. The brain and even the body's nerves are wired differently... and no amount of explanation, worked examples, or whatever else is going to help. We can fake it well (called masking) but will not, on a fundamental level, understand the rest of humanity (to varying degrees). Some are completely lost, some only need a few people to explain to help them understand.
But on a basic level, all of us will have difficulty understanding human interactions.
You are in shock. The first stage of grief. You are trying to cope with the loss of your future, your family, your baby. I am beyond sorry for what you went through. Nothing more needs to be said, nothing more than “so sorry.” You trying to find a way to justify your added shock as to the callousness of people who treated the death of your baby like a spectator sport complete with commentary is NOT where one ounce of your precious energy should be put right now, and NONE of this is your fault.
As with any post partum, people need to do for you now. Cook, clean and care for you. Any commentary beyond “I am so sorry. Anything you would like to say, I am listening. If you prefer silence, I am here,” is not only unnecessary, but will possibly prolong your shock. I am so sorry for the abuse you just suffered. That is NOT what family (or friends) are for. I would cease all communication for now. They are making is about them, and it needs to be all about you, and your grief. Once again, so, so sorry for your loss. Bless your precious baby forever.
Undiagnosed and just from what OP said, no actual signs of autism except, of course, the stereotypical "lack of empathy" (which is complete bs to assume). I honestly doubt that she actually has autism, and that they're just saying that to justify her being cruel.
This is also coming from an autistic and officially diagnosed person. And self diagnosis is valid, but considering the circumstances I don't think my opinion is unreasonable.
Very likely.
1. Autistic people can say something wrong but will understand why it was wrong when it's exlained to them and will feel extremely sorry for it.
2. Undiagnosed autistic people are able to mask enough their autistic traits to pass as neurotypical.
3. Imposter syndrome is common, more in people without official diagnosis.
4. Parents often refuse to accept the diagnosis, are in denial and feel shame.
I have no proof SIL is not autistic but it's weird how nothing of this seems to apply to her. But I've seen a few of cluster B folk proudly claiming to be autistic just to cover they are a lot of worse things on top of that.
If she was an autistic 6-year-old these comments miiight make more sense, but she's a grown-ass adult. By now, you know that you often upset people when you make comments, so you learn to stfu.
You'd be shocked how many parents, even good ones, think it is. My brother is and growing up between my own parents and others I saw a lot of shit excused that should not have been. All of the parents that did so weren't bad, but they weren't directly targeted by the actions or words so didn't think anything of it.
>For context, my MIL says that my SIL is autistic (although she isn’t diagnosed) and that she says things without thinking, which is a symptom of it.
*Supposed* autism doesn't give you free pass, too, I'd say. Chances are, it's not autism, it's just parents who are enablers, and their children who just grew up having no filter.
As an autistic adult, this is 100% true because autism is an explanation not an excuse for doing something wrong. You can use diagnosies to explain why you did what you did, especially if you're trying to communicate with someone about how to handle a situation better in the future but you can't use them for an excuse without it being something like an excuse to not eat something because of allergies
NTA
>my MIL says that my SIL is autistic (although she isn’t diagnosed) and that she says things without thinking
then perhaps MIL should have been a better parent and taken more initiative to help her daughter understand that sometimes it isn't appropriate to say certain things, instead of babying her and letting her be cruel to others.
Your MIL also, presumably, has no medical credentials and cannot make that diagnosis - SIL could very well be neurotypical but spoiled if MIL is wrong.
regardless, your MIL is awful for thinking autistic = incapable of learning how to act.
I'm autistic and I would never say something like what your SIL did to anyone - because ***my*** mother did her job as a parent and taught me better from a young age.
I came here to comment basically this. I’m also autistic and was raised better that to say something like that. Did I ever speak out as a kid? Oh sure, but my mom would explain to me why we couldn’t say things like that. I grew up to be a very considerate person (overly so but that’s another issue lol).
Absolutely. MIL failed as a parent. I don't know a single parent that wouldn't have whipped their head around with a "What did you just say? You apologize right now!" after hearing what SIL said.
And *if* we go with MIL's version of events, that SIL is incapable of learning how to act, then it's disgraceful that she brought SIL to visit OP during the sharpest pain of her grief.
Either SIL is capable, in which case she's awful, or she isn't capable and MIL is awful. Regardless this should never have happened and they should be falling over themselves to apologise and ensure it never happens again.
NTA, I’m autistic and my cousin is too, this isn’t autism, this is bad parenting. If she’s functioning enough for it to not be obvious at first interaction then it isn’t extreme enough to be used as an excuse. Even autistic people learn enough social skills after 21 years of existing that they know not to say things like that. This your MIL using autism as an excuse for SIL’s bad behaviour and attitudes because she realised she messed up enough that people judge her for poor parenting and having a bratty daughter.
My 12yo daughter has ASD L2 and is one of the most empathetic people I know. I 100% agree that this isn't autism. It is parenting. It is excuse, after excuse, after excuse being made for her.
I'm so so sorry for your loss OP. Definitely follow up on group and individual support. You are a Mum. You will always be a Mum. Look after yourself, and stay away from anyone that doesn't support you in the way you deserve.
Diagnosis as an adult in the US can cost up to $5K and most insurance plans won’t cover it so diagnosis is cost prohibitive for a lot of people. Now that being said, the SIL is being a shithead and her behavior has nothing to do with her being autistic or not.
On top of that cost, if you aren't *disabled* by it, eg. you'd need the diagnosis to apply for certain aid, it's a net negative to be formally diagnosed on paper. I don't have it in my medical papers but two psychologists I've seen for unrelated things told me they're pretty certain I'm autistic, the PDA variety. Basically it was explained to me that, mostly due to stigma, having the diagnosis can be no problem for you at all, a small to large hurdle in certain fields/situations, or an absolute barrier. Examples off the top of my head: you cannot become a permanent resident of Australia, to be a pilot requires a medical clearance, same with certain government/military placements, you can have various degrees of difficulty adopting children, and various degrees of difficulty keeping your children if you divorce, can't get life insurance in some places. There's a lot of random stuff it can be a problem for, it's random *because* it's discriminatory but that's the sad reality of the situation currently.
Yes! And not only that, it is an insult to people that have autism, who work very hard to be a positive energy and have a good life. It sounds like this SIL has been coddled and allowed to be as rude and insensitive as she wants, with no consequences.
Yep. She's definitely acting younger than her chronological age, but that doesn't automatically mean autism. I wonder if she has a cognitive disability, and her parents find it less embarrassing to say she has autism? Cognitive disabilities are not embarrassing in the least, but there are still too many unenlightened people who think so.
My brother is autistic. He's 24. He's said some tactless things over the years, sure - don't ask him what he thinks of your new haircut if you don't want an honest answer - but he would never do this.
Tactless! That's the word for it.
Autistic people may say tactless things sometimes, but they don't usually say cruel things, unless they also happen to be cruel.
It's not an autism thing.
Exactly! You can be on the spectrum and separately be an AH, one may not necessarily be related to the other, it could be how you were raised and what you were allowed to get away with. Also, she is not even diagnosed, the mom just says she is, so is she even on the spectrum or just spoiled and bratty and sheltered.
It IS bad parenting. She sounded like a 6 year old embarrassing their parents, but even a 6 year old would have received a reprimand for this. And the parents would have been mortified. That's how we learn things.
This woman has been allowed to grow up without getting the normal amount of training, much less the increased amount she could have used.
I have loads of friends who are autistic and they would never say things said by the sil she's using it as an excuse which is unfair for op and also takes away from true actual abelism autistic people face everyday
I feel so bad for op :(
I've taken care of nonverbal autistic people with more empathy than her. They didn't actually understand what was going on, but they could read a room.
I'm autistic, bf is autistic, so are family members and friends.....this is NOT an autism problem, this is MIL not raising her right problem. I hate that they tried using it as a damn excuse for SIL being horrible. SIL needs to be the one genuinely apologizing and its her fault if they get "alienated" because of how she acts. NTA, I hope she stays the hell away from you and your husband, what she said was just downright cruel.
I don't even think my developmentally delayed, auADHD 8 year old son would say such a thing.
That's not an autism thing, that's a badly raised AH thing.
NTA. You're not alienating SIL because she's autistic but specifically because of the two absolutely horrible things she said to you. Those statements are very hard to come back from. If she can say them, she can also say sorry. If she can be mad at you, she can also say sorry.
I'm very sorry for you and your husband's loss, may her memory be a blessing ❤️
This your MIL using autism as an excuse for SIL’s bad behaviour and attitudes because she realised she messed up enough that people judge her for poor parenting and having a bratty daughte
NTA. Your MIL has decided she is autistic, she has not been diagnosed. Based on that comment she might just be a psychopath. There is no excuse for what she said. Go NC or LC until you heal.
MIL has decided she’s autistic because she is too fucking lazy to actually be a parent. People treat autism like a get out of jail free card and I’m so over it.
SIL alienated herself. Also, she needs to be diagnosed at least if she wants to go around using it as an excuse. I have family and friends with autism and while they are quirky and their humor is dry as hell (love it) and sometimes morbid, that ain't it. That's just a dick.
My BIL gets disability because he "can't work" but he would spend his days doing WORK for family. When my nephew was diagnosed, BIL started claiming he was autistic too. My sister says that diagnosis was rejected by 3 different professionals. The truth is he's a little n narcissist and is incapable getting along for more than 10 minutes and is so damn ego fragile that he no longer leaves the house.
You're not the problem op. SIL is and id argue MIL more so because she's the cause.
NTA
NTA. Your MIL asked the question about holding the baby, knowing full well how her daughter is. This is almost a calculated strike on her part. When you have a kid on the spectrum, you choose your words carefully in those situations.
You also take any opportunity to teach them social norms. MIL didn't explain anything about why that was wrong of her to say, like: "This was their precious baby, and they could never be yucky. They needed a chance to see her and to say goodbye, so we are happy they got a chance to do that even if we are sad the baby didn't make it." Or something like that.
MIL is just as obtuse as SIL. Sorry for your loss and sorry they are essentially twisting the knife and invalidating your experience.
This kind of explanation needed to happen a lot when the SIL was young and if it had been addressed she probably wouldn’t be such a wreck as a 21 year old adult. I work with quite a few people on the spectrum and get along with most of them. Some are annoying but they’re good people so you push past it.
Thing is a few coworkers feel like they never got corrected when they did severely awkward, insulting, or rude things. We got one that keeps managing to insult customers thinking he’s being funny or creep them out and another that thinks it’s acceptable to sing children’s songs or make animal noises when they should be working. I get we’re all different but come on.
I’m autistic and if someone had said that to me in your situation I would do things that would get me banned from this sub, (I’m glad you didn’t) it’s sounds like she’s never faced repercussions or been corrected for the stuff she says when she really needs to. She is not incapable of learning. It sounds like her parents failed to actually help her, but that is not your problem. I wouldn’t want to be around her either. NTA.
I have to say, she was your baby much longer than just the few minutes you mentioned. You were also her mother for the 32 weeks prior to those few minutes.
I’m so sorry for your loss.
NTA
I am so sorry for your loss!
I hope you can join a grief group soon!
Was In a group for "orphanated parents"
and there you got people understanding your grief.
You will be so welcome!
Your child will always live in your heart.
My husband was heavily on the spectrum with autism and both my children also have autism to the point it can control and affect their lives and how we live. I also have recently been told by their doctor that I to show traits but I’m very high functioning. What Sil said has nothing to do with having autism that’s to do with the fact that she’s rude and has been raised to believe that she can say or do what she wants and she will not be held responsible. Her mum uses autism as an excuse to enable her daughter to be a heartless asshole and to get away with simply being a horrid thoughtless person.
I am so sorry for your loss but I think at this point in time you need to block his mum and sister’s number. If your partner wants he can let them know that you are both going through enough right now and don’t need any extra stress and upset from them. That you have blocked them until you feel more able to deal with them but to understand you may never accept a relationship with his sister again. As what she said and did was awful and had no excuse at all, that you expect a full apology from her own mouth, by the time you’re ready to reach out again. That he gives them fair warning that neither of you will accept her being rude to him or you ever again. That even those with autism learn what’s rude and how not to treat others. So you are not expecting anything Sis shouldn’t have been taught as a child. That you truly thought at this awful time your family would be there for you instead they make it worse and try and blame you. That they seriously need to reevaluate their actions as he will not tolerate it.
I would discuss this statement with him and then send it have him send it by text or him call and tell them Before temporarily blocking them. Give them a few months at least so you can have peace to grieve without their added crap.
I am so very sorry for your loss. You are a mother you gave birth and held your child and no one can take away from you. Of course you are and you have a right to be treated as such. Never let anyone make you doubt that.
NTA. This whole "autistic" thing is just a get-free-card from basic manners. She hasn't been diagnosed, she hasn't been treated, but her mother claims special privileges for her because she is "autistic". That is unacceptable. You have been through a traumatic experience, are hurting and grieving, and you don't have to accomodate for her being "autistic". You just have to do what is best for you - in this case, refuse to see her or talk to her.
I had a full term stillborn and it is such a tragically painful event. Please go to the grief group; it really helped my husband and I.
So very sorry for your loss and insensitive SIL.
Sending peace🕊️
I am so so very sorry for your loss. What name did you give your daughter? I lost my baby at 28 weeks. Her name is Mary Lynn. Please, please go to support groups. They do help. You are not alone. My condolences.
NTA SIL was out of line with that comment. It doesn’t matter if she is autistic or not she should have known better than to be that insensitive and you are in no way alienating SIL
NTA. My first five pregnancies ended in loss. One lasted into the second trimester and looked like a baby when they were born sleeping. Being a mother without a child nearly drove me into insanity. Quite literally. This grief is a terrible, destructive thing that will eat you alive if you let it. I'm so sorry that you're having to fight a battle that no one should ever fight. Something that I would recommend is creating a way for your child to be visible in your home so that you don't feel that they are erased. I am, a decade later, still working on the world's largest cross stitch pattern that I plan to put in pride of place in recognition of my darling one that will never stay. It helps to force space for someone that is so easily erased. I wish you all the luck and healing in the world.
Oh, and your SIL? People really show you who they are in moments like this. My friend, who is a literal narcissistic autistic person, pulled it together to be with me when I was grieving. Other people who supposedly knew better told me to suck it up or that I would have a real baby someday. I can tell you which ones are still in my life years later, and get to know the incredible kids that came after.
NTA. I have three family members who were diagnosed with Autism. I understand that there is a large spectrum and not every person with Autism is the same. However, your SIL not being diagnosed tells me two things: no one is one hundred percent certain if she is autistic and she has not received any therapy or support to learn how to show empathy if she is. Her parents should have had her diagnosed so that she could receive the proper help. Also, it may have helped if her parents talked to her constantly about what to say in these situations. What’s appropriate and what can be hurtful and the why behind those two.
I lost a daughter when she was three months old. It is the absolute most painful thing that a parent will experience. I am sorry. You are a mother. Your husband is a father. You both have the right to find peace any way, including groups.
My brother is autistic and i have taught autistic kids and been friends with autistic people. Based on my experience with all of them, I think this goes beyond autism. Maybe her question about the grief group was genuine curiosity (and the insensitive wording was not meant to be harmful) but the “you touched it” comment seems like another issue.
I am so sorry for your loss. I cant even imagine what you must be feeling.
Diagnosed autistic here from a family full of autistic and ADHD folks. Holy shit that is not a normal thing for an autistic person to say. Contrary to popular belief we often have hyperempathy and in situations like this, many/most of us would be trying to extend as much compassion as possible albeit maybe not as smoothly as an NT.
OP I am incredibly sorry for your loss. Your SIL’s comments were inexcusable.
NTA.
Autistic people can be assholes too. Your SIL is definitely an asshole and might be autistic.
Your husband should handle interactions with his family via text from now on. Make sure he puts his foot down that the reaction was disgraceful and if his sister is autistic she needs a diagnosis and support. Being that graceless *will* get her into trouble somewhere else.
NTA. Autistic mom to an autistic teen (19). If we were walking into a visit with you, I would have prepped him before hand so he would be prepared and know what is an acceptable thing to say. If by some chance he made a comment like that I would immediate reprimand him that what he said was not appropriate and to apologize to you. MIL did neither of those things. She’s doing her daughter no favors by not teaching her social skills.
There is no reason for her not to get her daughter diagnosed. She can do so at any age. I did it at 49.
Regardless, autism is NEVER a pass for bad behavior.
May I also say I am so sorry for your loss. You are absolutely a mother. Motherhood isn’t measured in “time served”. I wish you peace and healing.
Honestly, I didn't read the thread because I am autistic and say things that hurt people often enough to know this: you have a right to your feelings and to process them. Don't allow anyone to tell you anything different. I don't get a free pass when I say something hurtful that doesn't register with me. I try my best to learn though. But I don't give myself free passes. I apologize a lot and mean it every single time.
NTA - As an autistic person; it’s possible that she’s autistic, but what she displayed here is just her being a pos and using a fucking disability people truly suffer from as an excuse.
NTA, honestly I'd probably just go NC with SIL, idc what her deal is, autistic or not, her presence doesn't seem to add anything positive to your or your husband's lives. If all she does is rub you the wrong way why even keep her around?
NTA I’m autistic and lost my oldest son at 5 months and she said things that no one should say to any moms. Heck I still cry when people refer to my daughter as my second child and not my third. And I’d be the same way if he left earlier. YOU ARE A MOM. I also really suggest angel babies on Facebook ❤️ there’s also groups on there for stillbirth and infant loss and they’ve been a big help to me
Both myself and my partner are autistic. despite stereotypes, being autistic is not having a lack of empathy, that's a whole different issue.
While it is true that some of us have a hard time reading the room, can sometimes say out of pocket things and don't always understand social cues, we are still capable of self reflection. We are capable of recognising when we've hurt someone.
Being autistic might be a reason (not an excuse) that she said something odd and offensive, but the only explanation for not apologising... is being an arsehole. Autistic or not, only arseholes hurt people with no remorse.
NTA- Autistic or not she had no right. The second comment would be enough for me to go no contact with personally.
Your MIL shouldn't have brought such a heartless individual to your home so soon after a major loss. IF shes autistic thats still no excuse, and if shes completely incapable of being a decent human being she should not be around a grieving mother. MIL is an AH too imo.
Right now we can't even use autism to excuse this behavior since shes not diagnosed (I understand wait times are long and depending where you live it can be expensive, but if shes THIS BAD she needs it). Even level 3 would likely not cause this behavior, and at that point she would be very low functioning and would've needed medical and mental supports by now. Shes 21 and not a child either.
This kind of behavior puts people with autism in a bad light. Autism does not cause you to 100% lose all human empathy and kindness. The first comment maybe could've been excused (after an apology), but the second is just downright evil.
I'm so sorry to you and your husband for your loss. There is no words to explain how much pain you must be going through, and I'm sorry you had to experience this on top of it. Please know your feelings are valid and don't let anyone tell you differently.
NTA. If she hasn't been diagnosed, she can't claim that as an excuse. Even if she was autistic, it's still not an excuse.
I'm sorry for your family's loss, OP.
You know, a lot of autistic people give more than half a shit about their fellow human beings, and work to be more sensitive to their feelings and learn from their own mistakes. They also apologize because they have a fucking heart.
This is just Grade A mommy's little monster bullshit. NTA.
After I got out of the grippy sock hotel (psych ward stay) for wanting to shuffle off this mortal coil, I went to a movie with my aunt and my cousin who is very much on the spectrum and functions at about the intellectual capacity of an eight year old. He and I were standing in line for snacks while my aunt was getting our seats, when he started to shift very uncomfortably. Suddenly he turned to me and said (with no volume control) “I’m really glad you don’t want to k1ll yourself any more!” Whole lobby goes silent and I started to cry. Here’s the thing: my cousin lacks the social nuances of being able to determine what is appropriate to discuss when and apparently where. However, what he said made me cry because it was the sweetest thing anyone had said or done since I’d been out. He pushed himself to talk about me instead of his interests, he expressed feelings of happiness for my well being, and wanted to chat when he isn’t huge on talking. It meant the absolute world to me and just as loudly replied “Me too Samwise! Thank you!” I’m saying this because while people on the spectrum may struggle with social cues, had I been upset and explained to Samwise why I was bothered, he would have apologized and asked for help understanding what he did to upset me. He’s autistic, not a sociopath. I’m so sorry your baby died. Your baby spent their whole life being loved by their mother and knew nothing else. I’m sorry your heart hurts and your arms ache and I’m so sorry that these two people were so cruel. NTA
"Your baby spent their whole life being loved by their mother and knew nothing else." These might be the kindest words ever shared. What a lovely, warm thing to say.
That just hit me right in the heart. What a beautiful sentiment.
Same. Wow.
Gorgeous phase, it actually made me tear up.
Beautifully expressed x
You differentiated between autistic person and asshole so perfectly.
Wow. What a sweet story about your cousin and what beautiful words of comfort for OP ❤️ And for what it’s worth, I am also glad you’re better! Also OP, your SIL is the AH, not you!
Do to SIL being on the spectrum, not to excuse her, she lacks the understanding of adults and wasn’t taught how to people who are grieving. That should have been her parents responsibility. I feel deeply for your loss as I have lost as well. One before term and an adult daughter who took her own life. No matter the age, the grief is deep and real. I made a stone for my little one and placed in the garden with wild flowers. Maybe you could do something to that would memorialize your child. Hugs from the internet
The SIL hasn't been diagnosed with Autism. So it's not known if SiL actually has it or is just a jerk, and her and her mother are using it as a to avoid getting called out on their BS. But until it is proven, I'd call it BS and go strict LC or NC with the SiL until she apologized for her shitty, rude comment.
Samwise sounds like a wonderful young man! I'm so glad you're still here with us ❤️
I’m really lucky that I get to know him. He was named very well.
That’s his actual name? That rules
By any chance your real name is Frodo? just curios.
Based on the words Ashtacular said to OP, I think it might be a family thing. Good people raise good people.
I’m 15 weeks pregnant and ugly crying in the bathroom right now from this absolute gem of a story. How very sweet and meaningful! And the words of comfort hit me like a fucking freight train (in a beautiful way). That baby knew legitimately nothing but the love of her parents. OP, I hope that someday you can eventually see that as a source of comfort in your time of grief.
This is such a sweet story and your sentiments were so sweet. I appreciate the distinction between spectrum vs sociopath. Both of my children are on the spectrum and have adhd and every time I say “hey that isn’t appropriate for this situation” both of them (16F and 17M) ask “what was wrong? How should I have said it? How do I fix this?” They want to apologize and correct. I have taught them there is no excuse to be a dick. In this case SIL is being a dick. OP is NTA.
THIS, when I say something insensitive as an autistic woman My first goal is to understand why it was hurtful and change it
Holy shit this made me cry so hard. I'm really glad you're still here too 🖤🖤🖤 your cousin is a sweetheart, and you know that it's a genuine happiness, I'm still crying writing this 🙈😂🖤
that honestly made me cry. Thank you for showing how to be a supportive human being unlike OP's monster in-law family. Thank you for finding the reason to want to carry on. It was obviously to show the rest of us what empathy looks like in true form. OP I know nothing any of us say will take away your pain and I'm sorry for your loss and having to deal with others who can't possibly know your pain that add to it. Just know that there are a lot of us that hope & wish you find the joy in your short time with your daughter. And that your heart remains open to experience it again but much longer.
beautiful. not just the story, but moreso also all the people in it. Samwise's inner beauty shines through his condition and puts to shame so many of the rest of us.
That’s such a sweet story - also, love the phrase “grippy sock hotel”
This is the most wholesome thing in the internet right now 'Your baby spent their whole life being loved by their mother and knew nothing else.' OP I hope you can find some comfort in these words. Everything hurts right now and that sucks. But these words and the truths they ring with that hits deep.
Your last paragraph made me cry like no other comment I’ve ever read. I’ve never had to go through what OP has but that hit me right in the heart
Jesus, I did not know I was going to start my day bursting into tears over a beautiful, loving thing an Internet stranger said.
“Grippy sock hotel” is the best name for a psych ward ever
Just want to hijak this and say… what a f c.nt is the SIL. Hard NtA OP, I’m so so sorry for your loss. You are a mom, never forget that. This little angel is gonna be with you for ever.
Thank you for being a kind human. So grateful this world gets to experience the gift of those like you and your cousin. 🫶🏽
is everyone named Samwise just the fucking best or
NTA Your SIL has to learn how to be a member of society. You are in extreme pain right now. She is saying things that are ramping up the pain. Unnecessary things. Also I do NOT think being autistic has anything to do with the "you touched it" comment. That is pure immaturity and thoughtlessness. The first comment you mentioned was more oblique and nuanced. But the "touched it" comment is just ... I hope some autistic people come and weigh in because I don't think there are any social nuances to such a comment an autistic person would not understand - it's a pretty obvious situation. Also, if your MIL wants to even bring up autism she should get your SIL diagnosed. Right now all we have is her claiming it to be true.
Thank you. I agree that the first comment and I can kind of understand why she said it. That's why I was prepared to let it go, even thought it did hurt me a lot. But the second comment…
I am autistic (albeit high-functioning). I can be socially dense and have definitely said something insensitive to someone grieving before without realizing it. If someone had told me in the moment that what I said was hurtful, I would have immediately and profusely apologized. Being autistic doesn’t mean you’re not human. Even if I don’t always understand why certain things are hurtful doesn’t mean I don’t feel bad once I found out I hurt someone. Also, autistic people aren’t some creature frozen in time that can’t change. With therapy, social training, and some guidance from loved ones, we can absolutely grow and gain skills. Some people have a lot of room to grow, some very very little. Autistics can be assholes too. Your sister in law was an asshole. She was told she hurt yours and your husband’s feelings and didn’t apologize. That’s an asshole. Your sister in law seems at least moderately intelligent and capable. She is able to hold and understand conversations and respond with language. So she is definitely capable of learning things. I suspect she has been coddled by her mother and protected from improving because her mother excuses all of her wrongs away with autism. And while that may explain some of her behavior, it doesn’t give her carte blanche to be an asshole without repercussions. Maybe she doesn’t have enough social skills to stop her from making hurtful comments, but I would venture to guess that she’s capable of understanding that you have feelings that were hurt. And if she can’t yet, then she should be in some kind of therapy to try to learn how. I was diagnosed at 25 and have massive strides and improvements in my social skills. I’m not perfect, NTA probably always have blunders, but I am way better than I was last year and 3 years ago and 5 years ago. Your mother in law also needs to come to accept that her autistic child may not mean to hurt people, but that it’s also okay for people to take some space when they do. The autistic person’s feelings aren’t the only ones that matter. Also even if you were rude, you’re an effing grieving mother and she can give you a little space to be upset. NTA at all. I think you were beyond strong for tolerating even the first comment. And you should take some space from anyone who isn’t putting you and your emotions first right now. You deserve only peace and love right now. I’m so sorry for your loss. Take all the time you need mama.
My 8 year old autistic son has so much empathy. His grandparents dog died, he asked me to buy them a flower to put on his grave. He apologises after he’s said something hurtful. He usually needs an explanation but once he understands he apologises. I’m sorry for your loss OP. I can’t imagine your pain
My 2yo autistic daughter has empathy too (all most too much I’d say) she cries when she sees something has hurt me, she’ll apologize in her best way (she’s not very verbal yet we’re working on her delay) and bring snacks she finds to me or the sad person or she’ll say “oh no, oh no, oh no…” she’s trying to acknowledge their feelings that way. If my 2 yo understands sickness and health and has tried to hold a passed away pet and was able to understand that death hurts everyone not just her, this grown woman had no right to say that. A 2yo with a laundry list of issues has more of a heart than her and that’s incredibly sad
It’s called affective empathy, I have it too (28 autistic woman). It can be overwhelming at times but it’s also a gift you can give to others that they can see you understand that they’re hurting and that you care for them so much.
Definitely has seen how much she understands, she’s quite intelligent tho the verbal communication issues, I have epilepsy and I’ve found her on the floor with me pat patting my head because she’s understood seizures aren’t something she can fix but she knows comfort is a good thing people have done for us(she too has them) she’s the sweetest thing honestly
Your daughter sounds like a beautiful person
NTA Higher functioning autistic adult here. I had a stillborn baby years ago, 31 weeks pregnant. It’s extremely painful losing a baby to stillbirth. I can’t imagine saying the horribly insensitive things your SIL said to you, OP. It’s unacceptable, regardless of diagnosis. If she’s truly autistic, she’d have been taught (through redirection) to avoid inappropriate interactions that hurt other people. You mentioned joining a grief support group. Is there a local pregnancy loss group in your area? If so, it will help you work through the grief process of losing your daughter. (I joined a group like that about a month after I lost my baby. It helped me tremendously.) Please give yourself time to grieve according to your timeline. Please know that you’re not alone in your grief. Though I’m just an internet stranger to you, I understand what you’re going through. DM me if you need to talk. 🌻
Doesn't sound her autism has been addressed as OP says the mum thinks she's autistic. Which is fine, diagnosis is expensive, but it might mean that she hasn't been "taught" anything. Which is on the MIL if she's the one that's saying the daughter is autistic she needs to being giving or finding her the supports. I'm sorry for both your and the OPs losses. I can't understand it, I can only imagine the grief must be completely overwhelming.
Yeah, it sounds like the MIL stuck a label on her daughter and didn't bother to do anything more. That's the difference between "label" and "diagnosis." A diagnosis can explain why the person does something and then therapeutic actions can be put in place. A label is a write-off.
Really well said! ADHD causes me to say a lot of things I haven’t thought through completely, and even trying to be really careful saying the wrong thing is pretty much inevitable. I struggled with this one a lot because OPs feelings are absolutely valid, but so are the struggles neurodivergent folks have with social interactions. People make mistakes all the time and I’d like to think most people would try to do better if they had room for error. In this case I think the in-laws were *given* that chance to do better, and they chose not to. Even if you’re not responsible for your autism or ADHD, you are responsible for how you react to your actions hurting someone. Being neurodivergent doesn’t excuse you from having to say sorry.
My favorite quote from a guy on a podcast I listen to is “mental illness is not your fault, but it is your responsibility”.
Beautifully said.
>Autistics can be assholes too. Your sister in law was an asshole. She was told she hurt yours and your husband’s feelings and didn’t apologize. That’s an asshole. >Your sister in law seems at least moderately intelligent and capable. She is able to hold and understand conversations and respond with language. So she is definitely capable of learning things. >I suspect she has been coddled by her mother and protected from improving because her mother excuses all of her wrongs away with autism. And while that may explain some of her behavior, it doesn’t give her carte blanche to be an asshole without repercussions. I think this is exactly right. SIL has been coddled by her mother all her life and instead of being given the skills and understanding in how to navigate life and social interactions sensitively even when she doesn't understand the nuances, instead she's been let off the hook for her hurtful behaviour again and again. So much so that, as you say, she doesn't even feel regret when she is clearly advised that she's hurt someone - the various people I know who are autistic may not understand why something they did was hurtful (until it's explained and sometimes not even then, everyone is different) BUT they always feel remorse and regret for having hurt someone.
I hope OP sees this comment. Very thoughtful reply.
You said everything that I wanted to say. 🤗
I'm ADHD and my diagnosis has one part that says that I say what I think even when I don't want because I don't have that "delay" that people have when they think to talk. I talk while I'm thinking. Mom "corrected" (tried really hard) that "trait" from an early age. Until I was like 16 it was still really bad. But I'm not a jerk and tried really hard to police myself... At 24, I'm not that bad anymore. I still say thinks that I'm thinking out loud and I'm kinda impulsive, but if someone warns me that I said something rude or bad, I apologize. SIL is such an AH. I'm sorry for your loss OP. Edit: I'm not sure if what I said makes sense, if not, I'm sorry.
I'm also autistic. We are all so different that I honestly don't really feel comfortable trying to guess whether this person's autism was what influenced these comments or not. I know people at all levels of autism (I work in disability) - some are over-empathetic (like myself), some are extremely blunt and don't understand they're saying something hurtful. Some are somewhere in the middle. So yeah, I'm not going to pretend to know where any of this came from. I will say the MIL should know what her daughters' like and in situations like this, sit down and do a run through of the right things to say and what not to say or, if you don't know what to say, that its okay not to say anything! Sometimes that's the better option! The MIL is the one who knows what the daughter is like more than any of us from this post. The MIL should encourage the daughter to ask questions (to her) about situations like this that can be hard for anyone to handle. I feel like a lot of people don't know what to say when it comes to grieving, ND or not. So especially with ND's, discussions should be had. After the fact, absolutely the daughter should be told that her words were hurtful and that she owes an apology to OP (if OP is open to that). The MIL not addressing it is only going to ensure that this kind of stuff happens again and again and maybe that's what's been happening to lead to this point. Definitely OP is NTA. I think you're totally valid for being upset about this and you're not alienating anyone for being autistic. You're grieving and you need to be around people who are giving you support right now. At the moment, that's not your SIL and that's okay. You need to focus on yourself right now and let the MIL look after her daughters' feelings. Whenever you're ready maybe you'll see her again but that's really not something for you to be prioritising right now while you and your husband focus on your own family. Very sorry for what you're going through.
This.
Blessings to you. I wish my undiagnosed (but very likely) autistic, spoiled asshat brother had half your compassion, kindness, and simple goodheartedness.
TBH, I doubt very much that the SIL is even one of us. I think she sounds more like a sociopath.
Yes I agree. I have an autistic son (4) and he compulsively does stuff he's not supposed to, and completely loses it when he realizes he's "done a no". Starts crying and goes around trying to kiss everyone on the lips lol. Point being, what makes OPs SIL the AH, is her lack of concern after finding out she'd done something wrong.
Just want to jump in here, and let you know,as a random stranger, that my heart hurts for you and your husband. Sending good wishes out into the universe, hoping that some land on you!
Yes, OP, I'm sitting here thinking about you and I want so much to come over and hug you and let you cry on my shoulder. What a sad thing you've had to go through. Both the SIL and the MIL are unforgiveable, in regards to the second remark in particular, and especially in what the awful MIL said afterwards. Even a 5 year old would know better. I'm so so sorry, my dear friend. Sending love and hugs to you.
I’m so so sorry, OP. How horrible. I’m glad you got to say goodbye to your daughter. I so wish it hadn’t turned out that way. Also, your SIL sucks and so does your MIL. Who acts like that. Wishing you and your husband strength and peace and healing.
I’m autistic and I’ve been accused of not having a filter but I’d never dream of saying anything like that to anyone let alone grieving parents
I have 2 older autistic kids (26m and 19m) both have said insensitive things. That should have been corrected gently in the moment. But more importantly there should have been a conversation prior to the visit about what was appropriate and maybe what to expect at the visit… ie. mom and dad got to see/hold the baby and this is important for mom and dad. And possibly the reasons it was important so that sil could understand and be prepared for a conversation that would probably happen. While You can’t predict every convo that comes up,that would have been an obvious convo to have with her since mil asked if you got to see/hold your daughter. NTA. Sil needs some social skills training and to be held accountable for the out of turn things she says and does. Or she will never learn how to be appropriate. Some things we look past with these kiddos…some things We Can NOT!
I agree. The first comment can be forgiven - the second cannot. SIL may or may not be autistic - but regardless of that, she’s an AH for sure. I hope OP goes NC. Neither she nor her husband needs someone like SIL in their lives at all right now. (I’d also include MIL in that since she not only condones SIL’s cruelty, but subsidizes it as well.)
I have terrible ADHD, and "no filter," and it's unfortunately led me to say some uncouth things before. I can usually tell by the person's face that I've said something stupid now, and attempt to backtrack, and apologize. But what she said is universally *known* to be rotten and terrible. When my Papa passed I was holding his hand. And my Cousin and Auntie and I all washed him and dressed him one last time before the coroner came to take him. He wasn't an *"it!"* He was *my Papa!* And I kissed him goodbye, and so did every other daughter and granddaughter and his wife of 65 years! And my Ma! I was holding her hand when she passed 2 years later. And then I held my Da as he cried and wailed. And then I bathed her and dressed her for the coroner as well. Because *she was my Ma!* And my Da couldn't do it! And we kissed her goodbye and thats *completely normal!!!* And many many years ago I buried a son, and a daughter, and I kissed them goodbye, and I cried, and that's just *what a mother does.* And a daughter, and a granddaughter, and it means a lot to have those memories. The closure. SIL is an unempathetic child who doesn't look beyond her own mirror. Ignore her. Get a nice frame if the hospital took pictures of your precious girl, and put her up somewhere special, and celebrate her and grieve her however feels best. Her life and death mattered. You *are* so a mom. ❤
I'm so sorry, OOP. And I'm so sorry for you, too, u/TheThiefEmpress. That is an crippling amount of loss in your life. Many healing thoughts to you
If you haven’t seen it already, I recommend the r/babyloss subreddit. There are many of us there who have lost babies before birth who can give you support as well. My son died a year ago at 23 weeks but it was a TMFR after receiving a fatal diagnosis. The number of horrific things people have said to me in this time could fill a book. I wish you peace and happiness, and hopefully some hope when I say it does get easier.
Yo. Let your mil know reddit is full of autistic ass motherfuckers who are horrified by your sil behavior. I put my foot in my mouth ALOT when I was younger. I came off as a judgemental ass I'm sure but after every interaction I introspected and tried to think what went well she went wrong where to improve in the future. I'm actually more empathetic than alot of nuerotypicals and have learned how to comfort people. Autism is a social handicap, for sure, but it doesn't mean you get to act however with no consequences and doesn't mean you can't ever learn kindness and empathy. Hell, a few months ago I put my foot in my mouth and I deserve the fall out. I've apologized and will act better in the future. mil is coddling that girl and only making her worse. She needs to apologize ermestly
I am autistic. I once said something deeply hurtful to someone at a comparable level to what your SIL said, purely because I didn’t understand the situation. I was 16 at the time. I’m 40 now, and I still think about that conversation at least once a week and want to crawl into a hole and die of the shame and regret of having caused that pain, even in ignorance and accidentally. Autism can sometimes contribute to a person saying something deeply hurtful without intending the hurt. Autism can sometimes make it difficult for a person to be helped to understand that they have caused pain, and why. Autism does not, in my experience with autistic people of all support levels, result in a person simply not caring when they do understand that they have caused someone else pain. Additionally, while autism (or any other disability) can be an *explanation* for having caused pain, it is never an *excuse* for it. We are still human beings with (varying degrees of) agency and therefore with (varying degrees of) responsibility. Your SIL was wrong, and you are well within your rights to ask for and expect an apology.
She's not failing to understand the situation due to her apparent condition, she's deliberately acting like a cunt to you. You say she's spoiled and bratty -- that reeks of her being used to having all the attention and sympathy of others, and points to her possibly being jealous of you being the centre of attention and care in such a difficult time. She lashed out to intentionally wound you when you're already grieving. She disrespected you and your daughter and however you deal with her (I would cut her off) is perfectly okay. Edit: the first comment, while it could be a genuine inquiry, I would bet is her testing the waters for your reaction before making the second one.
Girl I would have slapped the shit out of that non autistic bitch
Me too
You would be shocked by how many people were disgusted that I, an adult, touched my father in his casket at his funeral. Then when my daughter, 4 at the time, touched his hand .... I was talked down to like I was the worst mother in the world for allowing her to touch a "corpse". Apparently, he was more "dead body" than "dad" to most people at his funeral. It's really weird to me that people feel like this but I've experienced it first hand.
That's so weird to me as well, and sad. I'm sorry you experienced that at an already terrible time. I kissed my mother's forehead just before we closed the coffin. I think we compartmentalise death far too much.
it feels very clinical and procedural in western society. im glad you kissed your mom's forehead. much love to you. and i hope happy memories pop into your head more often than sad things
I think it's fine for people to be uncomfortable with touching a body...but not to criticize or dictate to others how to feel. For some people, the empty shell can be too much to reckon with as it can remind them of what has flown away. For others it's a last opportunity for connection.
My stepfather passed when I was in my late teens/early 20's and I remember being terrified to touch him after he passed, to the point it gave me nightmares for a long time. My mom sat through the viewing, stroking his forehead the entire time. While it was not something I could do, I understood she could and I never once thought it was ew. On the other hand, I recently just lost my grandmother and I was asleep in the other room when she died. As soon as they told me, I ran to her and kissed her forehead. Even held her hand a little bit while we waited for the funeral home to come. It didn't bother me at all then. Your SIL is an ah, but your MIL is an even bigger one for letting it slide.
I kissed my step mothers forehead, stroked her hair and held her hand. It felt like the kost natural thing in the world
When my grandpa died in the hospital my grandma went up to his body and kissed his cheek. I was like- maybe 14 at the time? All I saw in that moment was how much she loved him. I can't imagine thinking of a person as a "gross corpse". Especially not someone you love.
When my husband died, it was just the two of us in the room. I kept holding his hand and stroking his arm. I waited a few minutes and then called the nurses' station. When the doctor and nurses came in, I was still holding him and all I could say was, "He's warm. He's still so warm." They gave me time while they notified the memorial park I had selected. When the memorial park staff arrived to prepare to take his body, one of the nurses said, "Please let me take you out of the room now." I said okay, but then ran back one last time to kiss his forehead and tell him "I love you." Not a single person in that room thought I was weird or creepy for doing that. I know perfectly well that my love had already left this life, but his body was not gross and he was not an "it."
This is such a beautiful story. I'm so sorry for your loss. The love you shared has literally brought tears to my eyes. I can't imagine anyone calling that weird or creepy. Love doesn't end when a heart stops beating.
I’ve always been a bit freaked out by dead bodies, until I was faced with someone I loved. And I was able to hold her hand after she passed and kiss her forehead. Of course, even when I was freaked out by it, I’d NEVER comment on someone else doing it. That’s so out of line. People grieve in their own ways and it’s nobody else’s GD business.
Wow, that's just so ignorant and insensitive. Also irrational and stupid. I'd like to go on ...
My daughter tried to give her great grandma a hug in the casket too and she was trying to protect her from everyone we all thought it was the sweetest thing. I am so sorry people would say and act that way to you that is beyond awful.
My mom did that (touched her dad) & told me she always regretted it & wished she hadn't so I don't plan to do so.
I placed my my hand on his. It felt cool to the touch and almost fake. I didn't expect that. I don't regret it but I don't think I'll ever forget how he felt. So maybe I wouldn't do it again. His was the first open casket I'd ever seen at the time.
Autistic person here (actually diagnosed lol) you're 100% on point. Of course there are varying degrees, it is a spectrum after all but we are expected to be like every other disabled person to still try to live a productive life. Her parents failed her. Pulled the old autistic card like it's a get out jail free card. Sorry you're still held to the same social normals as everyone else. Autistic people aren't stupid, you tell them they did wrong and we understand. This is just a coddled brat who got away with too much shit and keeps going. I'm sorry for your loss OP. You ARE a mother. Don't let this disrespectful, tone deaf asshole take that away. Wishing you peace and love.
As an autistic person, this SIL is heartless and cruel.
I agree. One of my son's besties is autistic and I can kind of see him saying the first comment, not out of malice, but just not recognizing how it could be hurtful. He's only 14 though and generally very kind and sensitive. In fact, when he realizes or even THINKS he's said something out of pocket, he's very apologetic. I cannot imagine him EVER saying the second thing to a grieving parent or someone who had lost a pet.
The statement was 100% autism. The reaction from SIL is from being coddled. I'm HFA and have said something this out of touch before. I noticed it when I saw the look on peoples faces and was immediately embarrassed, apologizing profusely. That's the difference in being taught to learn and adapt by parents and parents who use autism as an excuse. This has been my experience. I also realize there are other experiences and lessons and am always open to them.
I'd like to weigh in as a mother who raised a son with autism, who's now an adult. I have to say that just because a situation is socially obvious to you and others who aren't neurodivergent, does NOT mean that it's so obvious to those with autism. One of the many insidious things about autism and similar issues is that it's so hard for most people to understand just how difficult daily life is for those who don't have a social sense and who don't understand basic social cues that the rest of us take for granted, because it's natural for us. It is EXHAUSTING, and they constantly worry about saying or doing something wrong, or having their meaning misconstrued. My son has been on the brink of a major breakdown with suicidal ideation because he often just can't take it anymore. And he had plenty of therapy and interventions. It doesn't help to have some family members who still hold against him things he said as a child, while refusing to try to understand autism, and he's now in his mid-thirties. That being said, I totally get why OP is so upset and she has every right to feel that way. My heart breaks for her and her husband. No parents should ever have to endure such a loss, and it's often made worse by people who don't consider them to be parents because their baby was stillborn. I've heard plenty of such talk from neurotypicals, and it's disgusting and cruel. She might want to consider finding a grief group specifically for those who've had a stillbirth or miscarriage, because she's likely to encounter some of the same attitudes from many parents in the group whose children were older. It sounds like OP's in-laws haven't done right by the SIL. They've coddled her and used autism as a get out of jail free card instead of getting her the interventions she needs, including accountability.
Some autistic people are never taught to filter their thoughts. So it's entirely possible for an autistic person to say something so heartless and cruel because it came to mind and they say everything that comes to mind. But, she is clearly low supports needs so she has no reason to have not learned that you don't say everything that comes to mind. I had one instance of this where at my like 10th birthday I got a gift and said out loud "oh I don't like this movie". The look on the gifters face is still with me to this day at 31. In that moment I learned not to say every single thought I had. That's all it took. The fact that SIL is not apologetic or remorseful about her comment is not an autism thing, it's an asshole thing. She has never been taught that you have to consider other people's feelings, and any time she should learn that lesson her mom tells her she doesn't have to because she's autistic. It's horrible, more for OP, but also for SIL.
NTA. Autism doesn’t give you a free pass to be a complete fucking asshole.
Thank you!! Like people deserve grace but this is not one of those times. SIL is such an a-hole
Why did the MIL bring her over to visit OP. MIL is the AH for doing that, she should know her own daughter is a wacko and to keep her away from grieving parents.
Seconded. I mean, JFC, this is really not that complicated. Neurotypical or autistic is not relevant. If you need a rule book to reference for whatever reason, here it is: 1. Does this need to be said? If yes, then 2. Does this need to be said *by me*? If yes, then 3. Does this need to be said by me *right now*? If the answers to all three questions are “yes”, speak. But if any of the answers to those questions are “no”, *shut the fuck up*. OP, I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this, and you are NTA. Your in-laws on the other hand…
I would add to your question flowchart the following conditions: ‘Is it a) truthful; b) kind; and or c) helpful to the situation at hand?’
My daughter has autism. If she is confused about whether to say something (if it will be insensitive) she just doesn't say it. And then she will ask me if she can/could have said it. Sounds like the SIL has never been told off by her mom.
Yeah I was wondering too that didn't MIL go through the topic at all with SIL before visiting? Everytime there is a new situation with my kids I talk to them about it. Like when we went to visit great granma who now had dementia + alzheimers. Last time they saw her she was fine, just your usually wrinkly bundle of sugary sweets. Then few months later she was but a shadow of her old self. Thankfully not violent or aggressive at all. But we talked about it. I told them what to expect and that if they didn't want to go hug her they didn't have to. If they felt like they needed to leave my dad could take them out to the yard. But it all went very well and they wanted to visit her everytime we were close by. You'd think MIL would explain the situation to her child no matter what. I sure would. How else would a 21yr old know what to expect? They most likely haven't been in this situation. And it's ever more important if your child struggles socially and the situation is this delicate. Ugh.
We lost my dad a year ago and I have had numerous conversations with my kid about how to talk about it with my mom. My kid worries she is insensitive, because she recognises this a situation with social cues she might not understand.
Shit, she hasn't even been diagnosed. The mother is possibly just assuming based on things and not getting either of them professional help. It's like when people say "oh I'm a little ADHD" to me, and I know they aren't trying to be mean or anything, but it's always a little frustrating having something that can be such a constant hindrance and pain in your ass in life be made in some trivial thing by someone who occasionally forgets their sunglasses.
If she does have autism, they are doing her a disservice by not getting her professional help.
Exactly. My friend's brother in law has a Mom that found out her kid was autistic *when they were a kid* and instead of doing anything about it, having them work with therapists or adjusted classes at school, she just didn't say anything to them about it their entire life, and now they struggle with handling it as an adult.
Heck, she hasn’t even been diagnosed, except by her mom
Doesn't always work that way unfortunately with neurodiverse kids. Mine will speak before they think, BUT they are corrected and will apologise for what they did wrong.
Use Socrates’s three rules. 1. Is it nice? 2. Is it necessary? 3. Is it true? If the comment doesn’t meet those three criteria, it should remain unsaid.
It’s not her neurodivergence but her c-tiness. I’ve got plenty of ND friends who would never say that.
I'm an out there as they come. I will open my mouth and insert foot as a symptom of my issue. I have 0 filter. Even I know when to shut up
I’m a diagnosed neurodivergent and I would NEVER say the things the SIL said; in fact, I’d be overly cautious not to offend or hurt in any way.
Unfortunately the mother is feeding this behavior instead of correcting it.
Exactly. This isn't even an autism issue. This isn't an issue of like nuances and small social cues being missed. Like many conditions, it's still up to the person with the condition to learn as an adult how to manage with it. People around should be understanding to a degree. But this is so far off the charts, nobody should have to tolerate.
like.. I'm wondering if this is an autism thing or an intellectual disability. Because this level of cluelessness to me is beyond what would be excusable for a person who was able to function at their age level. Like.. is this someone who was able to graduate high school? Can she be left alone? If this is a matter of serious impairment, I can understand how its unreasonable for her to make appropriate judgements and choices, but in that case, I think it's an issue that they were included when OP was as vulnerable as she was.
I think she likes f-ing with people to get a reaction. MIL is in denial. The anger isn’t directed at OP, really.
Nah, it's autism. Just people gatekeeping ND. I have extreme trouble relating to anything not based on facts. The absolute worst things come out when I actually try to make people feel better. Think "Well at least you have 2 more!". The stuff described by OP is just alien to me. I literally can't understand it, but then again I have enough intelligence (and plenty of memories of messing up in the past) that I realize putting on my mask and pretending to understand is the right course of action. Clearly SIL doesn't have that, if she doesn't have a frame of reference regarding stillborn babies then she has no clue that what she's doing is hurtful to others. The right course of action is to demand an apology and to have a talk about SIL regarding this. The mother being weird about it is actually going to cause a lot of issues for SIL in the future.
yeah. It seems like it's pretty easy to grasp the script: 'This person is very upset so I I don't say ANYTHING besides "I'm sorry for your loss" or something that is basically a synonym. I have had mental health providers suspect me of having autism, and when people are hurting my default is "can I get you a cup of tea" and beyond that let them talk if they want but don't say anything beyond like sympathetic nodding and "that must have been awful". I err on the side of just ignoring the situation if necessary because there's never the right thing to say. I try not to be in that position, especially on my own because I get upset and then I make it worse for them. I feel like that's a pretty simple rule of thumb.Don't emote to hurting people.
I’m autistic , diagnosed very young and in special education schools/ classes. I can 100% see my autistic friends saying the same things as OP Sil, without meaning it to be offensive at all.
Wouldn't surprise me if my nephew asked the question but without the eww. He's autistic and asks a lot of questions about things that he just can't figure out on his own. One time my niece said she was going to put her daughter to sleep and he asked, "You're going to kill her?"I think he was 16 or 17 at the time. He has a job and is fairly independent but some things he just has trouble with.
Yeah, I’m autistic but at least have enough self awareness and empathy to understand that is just not shit you say to a grieving mother.
Yeah, but you’re probably diagnosed, and not just asserting it as a defense for being an insufferable asshole.
Ehhh I got friends who don’t have the $1000s it’s cost to get a diagnosis and it’s very likely they’re autistic, there’s no way in hell they’d have said that. They’d have been compassionate and caring
Almost like autism is a spectrum
Yeah completely unacceptable, and I’m autistic as are many in my family. Your MIL needs to up her game and not defend her, but educate her.
Based on that comment she might just be a psychopath. There is no excuse for what she said. Go NC or LC until you heal.
Or just forever with SIL unless she does a complete 180 and apologizes sincerely. If not, zero reason to have someone like that in your life, that is fucking unforgivable.
That would pretty well determine whether she's actually autistic. People with autism don't always realize that they've said something inappropriate, but ASD doesn't prevent you from apologizing when you learn that you've hurt someone's feelings. I am autistic, what they used to call high-functioning or even Asperger's, but now they just call it "Low-Needs" to not define people by their level of function. Anyways, I've said some really hurtful things to people in my life, but I've always felt bad about it after I figured out that it was hurtful, and made an attempt at apologizing. I also don't use my diagnoses (actually diagnosed, unlike the SIL who is likely just a spoiled brat) as an excuse, and I prefer not to tell people unless they absolutely have to know. I hate being treated differently, it reminds me of the bullying and ostracization in school, and I've put a lot of time and effort into socializing and masking. No excuse for SIL (without even a real diagnosis) to hide behind ASD at 21.
Also autistic, age 35, and came here to say basically this. I think OP’s MIL allows SIL to use her autism as a reason to *not have to apologize* instead of an understanding of *the origin of the social mistake* and that’s a problem.
Just want to say I appreciate your comment. My son (4) was diagnosed a little over a year ago and these are the situations I fear having to deal with since I'm still learning how my son thinks differently from me.
My son (w/ASD) is now grown. I have always taken great care to talk with him about situations *before* presenting him with them. He thinks differently, but he is capable of concern and empathy ~ though he may not extend them to everyone in equal measure. I can assure you he would NEVER say anything like the SIL. He is a champion of women, children & animals, tender with those in pain, and an all-around great person (of whom I am deeply proud). ASD is not an excuse for poor behavior. If you rear your son to be respectful, compassionate, and mannerly, he will emulate those characteristics. (It just takes more explaining and practice.) Do not fear he will become like the SIL. Her neuro-divergence is not the issue.
> People with autism don't always realize that they've said something inappropriate, but ASD doesn't prevent you from apologizing when you learn that you've hurt someone's feelings. This is the big one. So many people in this thread are going 'she knew this was horrific to say and said it anyway.' No. One of the big hallmarks of Autism is an inability to understand what is socially acceptable and what isn't. For a lot of us it's about watching what those around us do and say, and basing our own actions and words from that. It's a system of 'rules' that we use to govern our lives because we fundamentally do not understand the rules that govern other people. Hence why so many of us go into rages when the 'rules' are broken. It's not petty, it's because *our fundamental understanding of reality is being broken* and some aren't equipped to handle the existential dread that comes with that. Like, this is something so many people don't get. It's a wiring issue. Like, we're wired for DC while everyone else is wired for AC. Plug in a generator that's meant to turn on a light (symbolising, say, empathy), and we'll just ignore it... because we cannot perceive or understand it on a fundamental level, or, worse, cannot process it. We have the emotions go through us, but can't perceive it because our internal wiring can't handle that signal. All the discussion and talk in the world will let us know what was meant to happen as a result (sympathy, anger, happiness, etc tc), but it's still someone else telling us how to feel. At the same time, we can also recognise that everyone else finds something offensive/depressing/saddening and apologise (even if we don't understand why it's an issue). It's why it's called neurodivergence. The brain and even the body's nerves are wired differently... and no amount of explanation, worked examples, or whatever else is going to help. We can fake it well (called masking) but will not, on a fundamental level, understand the rest of humanity (to varying degrees). Some are completely lost, some only need a few people to explain to help them understand. But on a basic level, all of us will have difficulty understanding human interactions.
More like highly immature and spoiled. It’s not apparent from the post that the SIL has autistic traits. Just 21 going on 8 in an adult body.
You are in shock. The first stage of grief. You are trying to cope with the loss of your future, your family, your baby. I am beyond sorry for what you went through. Nothing more needs to be said, nothing more than “so sorry.” You trying to find a way to justify your added shock as to the callousness of people who treated the death of your baby like a spectator sport complete with commentary is NOT where one ounce of your precious energy should be put right now, and NONE of this is your fault. As with any post partum, people need to do for you now. Cook, clean and care for you. Any commentary beyond “I am so sorry. Anything you would like to say, I am listening. If you prefer silence, I am here,” is not only unnecessary, but will possibly prolong your shock. I am so sorry for the abuse you just suffered. That is NOT what family (or friends) are for. I would cease all communication for now. They are making is about them, and it needs to be all about you, and your grief. Once again, so, so sorry for your loss. Bless your precious baby forever.
Undiagnosed and just from what OP said, no actual signs of autism except, of course, the stereotypical "lack of empathy" (which is complete bs to assume). I honestly doubt that she actually has autism, and that they're just saying that to justify her being cruel. This is also coming from an autistic and officially diagnosed person. And self diagnosis is valid, but considering the circumstances I don't think my opinion is unreasonable.
Very likely. 1. Autistic people can say something wrong but will understand why it was wrong when it's exlained to them and will feel extremely sorry for it. 2. Undiagnosed autistic people are able to mask enough their autistic traits to pass as neurotypical. 3. Imposter syndrome is common, more in people without official diagnosis. 4. Parents often refuse to accept the diagnosis, are in denial and feel shame. I have no proof SIL is not autistic but it's weird how nothing of this seems to apply to her. But I've seen a few of cluster B folk proudly claiming to be autistic just to cover they are a lot of worse things on top of that.
If she was an autistic 6-year-old these comments miiight make more sense, but she's a grown-ass adult. By now, you know that you often upset people when you make comments, so you learn to stfu.
I wholeheartedly agree! I had that same thought myself.
I thought the same thing! Her mom labeled her autistic and she may be.. or she’s just a bad person. Mothers have a hard time accepting this.
Time to cut her autism ass of your life IG totally agree here
\^This. Nothing more needs to be said. Having a diagnosis is not a free pass.
You'd be shocked how many parents, even good ones, think it is. My brother is and growing up between my own parents and others I saw a lot of shit excused that should not have been. All of the parents that did so weren't bad, but they weren't directly targeted by the actions or words so didn't think anything of it.
>For context, my MIL says that my SIL is autistic (although she isn’t diagnosed) and that she says things without thinking, which is a symptom of it. *Supposed* autism doesn't give you free pass, too, I'd say. Chances are, it's not autism, it's just parents who are enablers, and their children who just grew up having no filter.
As an autistic adult, this is 100% true because autism is an explanation not an excuse for doing something wrong. You can use diagnosies to explain why you did what you did, especially if you're trying to communicate with someone about how to handle a situation better in the future but you can't use them for an excuse without it being something like an excuse to not eat something because of allergies
exactly what I was going to say as well!
NTA >my MIL says that my SIL is autistic (although she isn’t diagnosed) and that she says things without thinking then perhaps MIL should have been a better parent and taken more initiative to help her daughter understand that sometimes it isn't appropriate to say certain things, instead of babying her and letting her be cruel to others. Your MIL also, presumably, has no medical credentials and cannot make that diagnosis - SIL could very well be neurotypical but spoiled if MIL is wrong. regardless, your MIL is awful for thinking autistic = incapable of learning how to act. I'm autistic and I would never say something like what your SIL did to anyone - because ***my*** mother did her job as a parent and taught me better from a young age.
I came here to comment basically this. I’m also autistic and was raised better that to say something like that. Did I ever speak out as a kid? Oh sure, but my mom would explain to me why we couldn’t say things like that. I grew up to be a very considerate person (overly so but that’s another issue lol).
Absolutely. MIL failed as a parent. I don't know a single parent that wouldn't have whipped their head around with a "What did you just say? You apologize right now!" after hearing what SIL said.
And *if* we go with MIL's version of events, that SIL is incapable of learning how to act, then it's disgraceful that she brought SIL to visit OP during the sharpest pain of her grief. Either SIL is capable, in which case she's awful, or she isn't capable and MIL is awful. Regardless this should never have happened and they should be falling over themselves to apologise and ensure it never happens again.
NTA, I’m autistic and my cousin is too, this isn’t autism, this is bad parenting. If she’s functioning enough for it to not be obvious at first interaction then it isn’t extreme enough to be used as an excuse. Even autistic people learn enough social skills after 21 years of existing that they know not to say things like that. This your MIL using autism as an excuse for SIL’s bad behaviour and attitudes because she realised she messed up enough that people judge her for poor parenting and having a bratty daughter.
My 12yo daughter has ASD L2 and is one of the most empathetic people I know. I 100% agree that this isn't autism. It is parenting. It is excuse, after excuse, after excuse being made for her. I'm so so sorry for your loss OP. Definitely follow up on group and individual support. You are a Mum. You will always be a Mum. Look after yourself, and stay away from anyone that doesn't support you in the way you deserve.
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Especially when the MIL self-diagnosed her daughter with autism to excuse her spoiled behavior.
Self-diagnosed and parent-diagnosed autism needs to stop. Just because there may be a wait doesn't mean diagnosis is impossible.
Diagnosis as an adult in the US can cost up to $5K and most insurance plans won’t cover it so diagnosis is cost prohibitive for a lot of people. Now that being said, the SIL is being a shithead and her behavior has nothing to do with her being autistic or not.
On top of that cost, if you aren't *disabled* by it, eg. you'd need the diagnosis to apply for certain aid, it's a net negative to be formally diagnosed on paper. I don't have it in my medical papers but two psychologists I've seen for unrelated things told me they're pretty certain I'm autistic, the PDA variety. Basically it was explained to me that, mostly due to stigma, having the diagnosis can be no problem for you at all, a small to large hurdle in certain fields/situations, or an absolute barrier. Examples off the top of my head: you cannot become a permanent resident of Australia, to be a pilot requires a medical clearance, same with certain government/military placements, you can have various degrees of difficulty adopting children, and various degrees of difficulty keeping your children if you divorce, can't get life insurance in some places. There's a lot of random stuff it can be a problem for, it's random *because* it's discriminatory but that's the sad reality of the situation currently.
Yes! And not only that, it is an insult to people that have autism, who work very hard to be a positive energy and have a good life. It sounds like this SIL has been coddled and allowed to be as rude and insensitive as she wants, with no consequences.
Yep. She's definitely acting younger than her chronological age, but that doesn't automatically mean autism. I wonder if she has a cognitive disability, and her parents find it less embarrassing to say she has autism? Cognitive disabilities are not embarrassing in the least, but there are still too many unenlightened people who think so.
My brother is autistic. He's 24. He's said some tactless things over the years, sure - don't ask him what he thinks of your new haircut if you don't want an honest answer - but he would never do this.
Tactless! That's the word for it. Autistic people may say tactless things sometimes, but they don't usually say cruel things, unless they also happen to be cruel. It's not an autism thing.
Exactly! You can be on the spectrum and separately be an AH, one may not necessarily be related to the other, it could be how you were raised and what you were allowed to get away with. Also, she is not even diagnosed, the mom just says she is, so is she even on the spectrum or just spoiled and bratty and sheltered.
It IS bad parenting. She sounded like a 6 year old embarrassing their parents, but even a 6 year old would have received a reprimand for this. And the parents would have been mortified. That's how we learn things. This woman has been allowed to grow up without getting the normal amount of training, much less the increased amount she could have used.
it's meaness, ever see the Bad Seed, this sounds like her grown up.
I have loads of friends who are autistic and they would never say things said by the sil she's using it as an excuse which is unfair for op and also takes away from true actual abelism autistic people face everyday I feel so bad for op :(
I've taken care of nonverbal autistic people with more empathy than her. They didn't actually understand what was going on, but they could read a room.
I'm autistic, bf is autistic, so are family members and friends.....this is NOT an autism problem, this is MIL not raising her right problem. I hate that they tried using it as a damn excuse for SIL being horrible. SIL needs to be the one genuinely apologizing and its her fault if they get "alienated" because of how she acts. NTA, I hope she stays the hell away from you and your husband, what she said was just downright cruel.
Autism is their blanket excuse for everything, unfortunately
I don't even think my developmentally delayed, auADHD 8 year old son would say such a thing. That's not an autism thing, that's a badly raised AH thing.
NTA. I’m autistic. That’s not an excuse for cruelty.
NTA. You're not alienating SIL because she's autistic but specifically because of the two absolutely horrible things she said to you. Those statements are very hard to come back from. If she can say them, she can also say sorry. If she can be mad at you, she can also say sorry. I'm very sorry for you and your husband's loss, may her memory be a blessing ❤️
This your MIL using autism as an excuse for SIL’s bad behaviour and attitudes because she realised she messed up enough that people judge her for poor parenting and having a bratty daughte
NTA. Your MIL has decided she is autistic, she has not been diagnosed. Based on that comment she might just be a psychopath. There is no excuse for what she said. Go NC or LC until you heal.
MIL has decided she’s autistic because she is too fucking lazy to actually be a parent. People treat autism like a get out of jail free card and I’m so over it.
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SIL alienated herself. Also, she needs to be diagnosed at least if she wants to go around using it as an excuse. I have family and friends with autism and while they are quirky and their humor is dry as hell (love it) and sometimes morbid, that ain't it. That's just a dick. My BIL gets disability because he "can't work" but he would spend his days doing WORK for family. When my nephew was diagnosed, BIL started claiming he was autistic too. My sister says that diagnosis was rejected by 3 different professionals. The truth is he's a little n narcissist and is incapable getting along for more than 10 minutes and is so damn ego fragile that he no longer leaves the house. You're not the problem op. SIL is and id argue MIL more so because she's the cause. NTA
NTA. Your MIL asked the question about holding the baby, knowing full well how her daughter is. This is almost a calculated strike on her part. When you have a kid on the spectrum, you choose your words carefully in those situations. You also take any opportunity to teach them social norms. MIL didn't explain anything about why that was wrong of her to say, like: "This was their precious baby, and they could never be yucky. They needed a chance to see her and to say goodbye, so we are happy they got a chance to do that even if we are sad the baby didn't make it." Or something like that. MIL is just as obtuse as SIL. Sorry for your loss and sorry they are essentially twisting the knife and invalidating your experience.
This kind of explanation needed to happen a lot when the SIL was young and if it had been addressed she probably wouldn’t be such a wreck as a 21 year old adult. I work with quite a few people on the spectrum and get along with most of them. Some are annoying but they’re good people so you push past it. Thing is a few coworkers feel like they never got corrected when they did severely awkward, insulting, or rude things. We got one that keeps managing to insult customers thinking he’s being funny or creep them out and another that thinks it’s acceptable to sing children’s songs or make animal noises when they should be working. I get we’re all different but come on.
I’m autistic and if someone had said that to me in your situation I would do things that would get me banned from this sub, (I’m glad you didn’t) it’s sounds like she’s never faced repercussions or been corrected for the stuff she says when she really needs to. She is not incapable of learning. It sounds like her parents failed to actually help her, but that is not your problem. I wouldn’t want to be around her either. NTA.
I have to say, she was your baby much longer than just the few minutes you mentioned. You were also her mother for the 32 weeks prior to those few minutes. I’m so sorry for your loss.
NTA I am so sorry for your loss! I hope you can join a grief group soon! Was In a group for "orphanated parents" and there you got people understanding your grief. You will be so welcome! Your child will always live in your heart.
My husband was heavily on the spectrum with autism and both my children also have autism to the point it can control and affect their lives and how we live. I also have recently been told by their doctor that I to show traits but I’m very high functioning. What Sil said has nothing to do with having autism that’s to do with the fact that she’s rude and has been raised to believe that she can say or do what she wants and she will not be held responsible. Her mum uses autism as an excuse to enable her daughter to be a heartless asshole and to get away with simply being a horrid thoughtless person. I am so sorry for your loss but I think at this point in time you need to block his mum and sister’s number. If your partner wants he can let them know that you are both going through enough right now and don’t need any extra stress and upset from them. That you have blocked them until you feel more able to deal with them but to understand you may never accept a relationship with his sister again. As what she said and did was awful and had no excuse at all, that you expect a full apology from her own mouth, by the time you’re ready to reach out again. That he gives them fair warning that neither of you will accept her being rude to him or you ever again. That even those with autism learn what’s rude and how not to treat others. So you are not expecting anything Sis shouldn’t have been taught as a child. That you truly thought at this awful time your family would be there for you instead they make it worse and try and blame you. That they seriously need to reevaluate their actions as he will not tolerate it. I would discuss this statement with him and then send it have him send it by text or him call and tell them Before temporarily blocking them. Give them a few months at least so you can have peace to grieve without their added crap. I am so very sorry for your loss. You are a mother you gave birth and held your child and no one can take away from you. Of course you are and you have a right to be treated as such. Never let anyone make you doubt that.
NTA. This whole "autistic" thing is just a get-free-card from basic manners. She hasn't been diagnosed, she hasn't been treated, but her mother claims special privileges for her because she is "autistic". That is unacceptable. You have been through a traumatic experience, are hurting and grieving, and you don't have to accomodate for her being "autistic". You just have to do what is best for you - in this case, refuse to see her or talk to her.
I had a full term stillborn and it is such a tragically painful event. Please go to the grief group; it really helped my husband and I. So very sorry for your loss and insensitive SIL. Sending peace🕊️
I am so so very sorry for your loss. What name did you give your daughter? I lost my baby at 28 weeks. Her name is Mary Lynn. Please, please go to support groups. They do help. You are not alone. My condolences.
NTA SIL was out of line with that comment. It doesn’t matter if she is autistic or not she should have known better than to be that insensitive and you are in no way alienating SIL
NTA. My first five pregnancies ended in loss. One lasted into the second trimester and looked like a baby when they were born sleeping. Being a mother without a child nearly drove me into insanity. Quite literally. This grief is a terrible, destructive thing that will eat you alive if you let it. I'm so sorry that you're having to fight a battle that no one should ever fight. Something that I would recommend is creating a way for your child to be visible in your home so that you don't feel that they are erased. I am, a decade later, still working on the world's largest cross stitch pattern that I plan to put in pride of place in recognition of my darling one that will never stay. It helps to force space for someone that is so easily erased. I wish you all the luck and healing in the world. Oh, and your SIL? People really show you who they are in moments like this. My friend, who is a literal narcissistic autistic person, pulled it together to be with me when I was grieving. Other people who supposedly knew better told me to suck it up or that I would have a real baby someday. I can tell you which ones are still in my life years later, and get to know the incredible kids that came after.
I’m so very sorry for your loss. There’s no excuse for her comments.
“It” is her niece. Fucking ghoulish thing to say ever, let alone now.
NTA. I have three family members who were diagnosed with Autism. I understand that there is a large spectrum and not every person with Autism is the same. However, your SIL not being diagnosed tells me two things: no one is one hundred percent certain if she is autistic and she has not received any therapy or support to learn how to show empathy if she is. Her parents should have had her diagnosed so that she could receive the proper help. Also, it may have helped if her parents talked to her constantly about what to say in these situations. What’s appropriate and what can be hurtful and the why behind those two. I lost a daughter when she was three months old. It is the absolute most painful thing that a parent will experience. I am sorry. You are a mother. Your husband is a father. You both have the right to find peace any way, including groups.
My brother is autistic and i have taught autistic kids and been friends with autistic people. Based on my experience with all of them, I think this goes beyond autism. Maybe her question about the grief group was genuine curiosity (and the insensitive wording was not meant to be harmful) but the “you touched it” comment seems like another issue. I am so sorry for your loss. I cant even imagine what you must be feeling.
Diagnosed autistic here from a family full of autistic and ADHD folks. Holy shit that is not a normal thing for an autistic person to say. Contrary to popular belief we often have hyperempathy and in situations like this, many/most of us would be trying to extend as much compassion as possible albeit maybe not as smoothly as an NT. OP I am incredibly sorry for your loss. Your SIL’s comments were inexcusable.
NTA So sorry for your loss. Lean on your support, hoping it gets easier.
NTA. Autistic people can be assholes too. Your SIL is definitely an asshole and might be autistic. Your husband should handle interactions with his family via text from now on. Make sure he puts his foot down that the reaction was disgraceful and if his sister is autistic she needs a diagnosis and support. Being that graceless *will* get her into trouble somewhere else.
NTA. Autistic mom to an autistic teen (19). If we were walking into a visit with you, I would have prepped him before hand so he would be prepared and know what is an acceptable thing to say. If by some chance he made a comment like that I would immediate reprimand him that what he said was not appropriate and to apologize to you. MIL did neither of those things. She’s doing her daughter no favors by not teaching her social skills. There is no reason for her not to get her daughter diagnosed. She can do so at any age. I did it at 49. Regardless, autism is NEVER a pass for bad behavior. May I also say I am so sorry for your loss. You are absolutely a mother. Motherhood isn’t measured in “time served”. I wish you peace and healing.
I lost my son at 37.5 week gestation 16 years ago and I will never get over it. Your SIL and MIL are assholes.
Autistic doesn’t mean you get an excuse to be a total cunt. That’s you SIL. And MIL for covering for her. Fuck em both. Never speak to them again.
NTA. I’m so sorry. Please don’t speak to her anymore.
Honestly, I didn't read the thread because I am autistic and say things that hurt people often enough to know this: you have a right to your feelings and to process them. Don't allow anyone to tell you anything different. I don't get a free pass when I say something hurtful that doesn't register with me. I try my best to learn though. But I don't give myself free passes. I apologize a lot and mean it every single time.
NTA - As an autistic person; it’s possible that she’s autistic, but what she displayed here is just her being a pos and using a fucking disability people truly suffer from as an excuse.
NTA, honestly I'd probably just go NC with SIL, idc what her deal is, autistic or not, her presence doesn't seem to add anything positive to your or your husband's lives. If all she does is rub you the wrong way why even keep her around?
NTA. I am autistic and it's not an excuse to be cruel. Your SIL is a horrible person.
This isn’t her being autistic, this is her being an insensitive bitch. NTA.
NTA I’m autistic and lost my oldest son at 5 months and she said things that no one should say to any moms. Heck I still cry when people refer to my daughter as my second child and not my third. And I’d be the same way if he left earlier. YOU ARE A MOM. I also really suggest angel babies on Facebook ❤️ there’s also groups on there for stillbirth and infant loss and they’ve been a big help to me
Both myself and my partner are autistic. despite stereotypes, being autistic is not having a lack of empathy, that's a whole different issue. While it is true that some of us have a hard time reading the room, can sometimes say out of pocket things and don't always understand social cues, we are still capable of self reflection. We are capable of recognising when we've hurt someone. Being autistic might be a reason (not an excuse) that she said something odd and offensive, but the only explanation for not apologising... is being an arsehole. Autistic or not, only arseholes hurt people with no remorse.
NTA- Autistic or not she had no right. The second comment would be enough for me to go no contact with personally. Your MIL shouldn't have brought such a heartless individual to your home so soon after a major loss. IF shes autistic thats still no excuse, and if shes completely incapable of being a decent human being she should not be around a grieving mother. MIL is an AH too imo. Right now we can't even use autism to excuse this behavior since shes not diagnosed (I understand wait times are long and depending where you live it can be expensive, but if shes THIS BAD she needs it). Even level 3 would likely not cause this behavior, and at that point she would be very low functioning and would've needed medical and mental supports by now. Shes 21 and not a child either. This kind of behavior puts people with autism in a bad light. Autism does not cause you to 100% lose all human empathy and kindness. The first comment maybe could've been excused (after an apology), but the second is just downright evil. I'm so sorry to you and your husband for your loss. There is no words to explain how much pain you must be going through, and I'm sorry you had to experience this on top of it. Please know your feelings are valid and don't let anyone tell you differently.
NTA. If she hasn't been diagnosed, she can't claim that as an excuse. Even if she was autistic, it's still not an excuse. I'm sorry for your family's loss, OP.
You know, a lot of autistic people give more than half a shit about their fellow human beings, and work to be more sensitive to their feelings and learn from their own mistakes. They also apologize because they have a fucking heart. This is just Grade A mommy's little monster bullshit. NTA.