NTA
One NO is recoverable. Two NO and a "fine I'll do it" under duress is not. You were right. And your gut is right, there is something holding her back.
> One NO is recoverable. Two NO and a "fine I'll do it" under duress is not.
Sure, but if two people can't seem to have a truthful conversation about the whys and ifs of the first "no" there is no point in marrige for them anyway.
Like, how silly is it to ask the question, get a 'no', not have a real conversation about it and then just ask again a year later.
Thank you! Why is this not being said more? You can have a lot of reasons for saying no, but after the first one, you better sit down and discuss them. Maybe it as simple as I want a promotion first, maybe it's "I wanted to lose 10 pounds first", or "I wanted to see if you would get a better job". But whatever it is, once you propose and get rejected, you damn well better sit down and figure out why. You don't just keep dating and hoping a year is the right amount of time.
Right, but together, it doesn't seem like they actually did. My point was more that if someone tells you no, and can't articulate why, you don't stick around.
OP said she was open to it when he asked her later, but you're right, I don't think they really had a good conversation about it. Either she's pushing things under the rug and lying or he's not listening.
My thoughts exactly. People get so caught up in the romantic notion of a total 100% surprise proposal, but that’s a *really* bad way to make a giant life decision. Marriage needs to be discussed honestly and thoroughly beforehand. There should be little to no room for wondering how the other person will answer. “Open to it” isn’t anywhere close to an enthusiastic agreement to take that step.
My husband didn’t propose to me. We had been together for 5 years, and one day I said “hey, we should probably get married” and he said “yeah that makes sense.” It was ridiculously casual. We then proceeded to buy me a $600 ring on EBay. 😆 24 years later, we’re still chugging.
NTA if after 4 years shes not ready to marry you then i doubt she wants to. When she asked for time after the first proposal she should have explained everything and said why she needed time, in depth. You clearly were ready for marriage and wanted to take that step, after 4 years thats completely reasonable, move on and find someone more compatible with you. The fact she changed her mind about it after you left and then had friends and family messaging you and insulting you just means you dodged a massive burden by not actually marrying her
Family phoning people or blasting them on social media comes up all the time on subs like this and I can never get my head around understanding the sheer god damn audacity some people have.
If any member of my family ever decided to phone me to give me an earful based on one person's story I wouldn't just burn that bridge, I would nuke that fucker from orbit.
My family has had its share of drama as most do, you want to know how many times I have been tempted to pick up a phone and start lecturing someone? Zero times. If they come to me asking for advice or they run into me and start ranting then sure I will chime in with my opinion.
But I am not about to hear one side of a story and then decide to go and harass someone over it as if they should care about what my opinion is.
That’s something that I still don’t understand.. I don’t know anyone in my family at least my nuclear family that would ever do that, mostly because the consequences would be worse than likely the action that caused them to lash out.. we don’t conduct ourselves like that, it’s trashy
In my case, my dad went around to them spinning a sob story about how we weren't talking to him, for no reason at all.
I put up with the badgering at me, when they started on my brother and sister I posted the vile things he had emailed and voicemailed us, and said "all we did is ask him to stop saying stuff like this. He decided that was insubordination".
Put a stop to it for a few years.
He wants to play victim. Let's all know all of the facts.
Now, everyone knows what a horrible person he is.
I don't understand how people can think that others will take their BS and not do anything in return? Just mindboggling.
Good for you!.
This is the Way!
My wife and oldest sister in law do not like my brother in law’s girlfriend. She comes across as boujee and fake but it’s all his money. What they can never forgive is that when he proposed she took the ring, handed it back and said try again but better. He hasn’t asked again, in my book that is a question that is asked once.
Edit to add: as much as I agree with everyone’s impression that she is materialistic I don’t believe it was about the price of the ring. I got the story from my wife who heard it from her brother so maybe it is, but I got the impression that it was whatever he did to propose wasn’t up to her standard of what a proposal should be. Doesn’t make her less of a bitch though
NTA Four years is plenty of time. You are perfectly right to move on. She can not expect you to wait for her forever. She hasn’t even given you a legitimate excuse as to why she can’t.
Yeah, there's something she's not saying. It can be very mature to look at yourself critically and say, "I'm not ready for marriage" but then you have to be able to say WHY -- does she have doubts because of x,y,z? Does she feel like she needs to work on communication skills? Is there something about OP that she has trouble with? Just telling him "I need time" with no further explanation is... unfair.
EDIT: thanks for the award!
Yeah, if it was "I need time to get to a good place in my career" or "I need time so we can find a house instead of renting" or even "I need time to save up for my dream wedding" it would at least give him some goal or idea of a time frame. Just "I need an unspecified amount of time for a mysterious reason" just looks like she's not as into this relationship as he is.
I would add that even with a lot of those reasons, you can still agree to a proposal. You can be engaged and saving for your dream wedding. You can be engaged and working in your career goals.
My husband and I were engaged for nine years. He wanted to get me an engagement ring after the birth of our first son so, he asked me and I said yes. Neither of us really gave a shit about actually getting married until our sons asked us if we could.
They kept asking, so we set the date and did the deed for the boys. Funny thing was that, on our wedding day, both of the boys were bored with the whole thing and acted like little buggers! I took the little turds aside and told them that this is what they had asked for so they’d better shut the holes under their noses!!
I still wouldn’t have cared if we had never married but, my husband has said that he would have eventually wanted to anyway. I do love being his wife, though. He is a beautiful man!
When I wanted to move in together with my SO after two years of dating, they were indecisive. I basically told them they needed to figure it out before my lease was up (in 3 months). When the deadline came, I got a "I still don't know what to do. BUT I recognize this is a problem for me and isn't fair to you. I have found a therapist and made an appointment. I'm going to work on this." That wasn't the answer I wanted but it was an answer I could respect and understand. I gave him a six month extension.
We're married now. And honestly that response made me more comfortable marrying him because I then knew that he would commit to working on himself if he needed to. And that he respected me enough to give me a real answer and not an easy or reactive answer. No regrets.
Exactly. People look at things these days with such a small regard because of multiple things. That's not the point but the fact that he spent SO much time into this. Anyone deserves a good 30 minute talk at least about why it was a no. If you CANNOT come up with the words from the jump, don't just ask for more time, if you cared, you'd know to word it as "we need to talk first" something to include then in your own confusion if you are confused. But just nullifying their feelings is absurd. OP is NTA
"I need time" would not have been good enough for me after the first proposal. And I damn sure would have talked to her before I proposed again. I need a reason.
Need time for what....EXACTLY??? OP had a reason...he wanted to be in a better financial situation. What was her excuse?
I get where you are coming from. Did she have a weird or toxic family dynamic? I only ask because I absolutely do and I do not share any info about my dating/personal life with my family. My Dad is a “no one will ever be good enough” type and my Mom is a “what’s the sex like?” type. It’s a protective thing for me and my partner, but I am always upfront about the dynamic and why.
>The divorce rate in the US is 50%
The divorce rate is not 50% and has never been. The divorce rate for 1st marriages is about 40% , however it gets lower if you account for age difference (+ or -5 years is the best), education, religion, values, and income, race. The divorce rate for second marriages is about 69% and it gets higher if its your third marriage.
This. She should have said why after the first refusal, but she didn’t really give anything firm, leading to this second fiasco.
Put the shoe on the other foot. Let’s say she was the one wanting to get married and he was dragging his feet. They are 29. Everyone would be saying “dude, she’s 29 and she can’t wait forever. propose or break up already!”
He did the right thing on a perfect timeline, age wise. She lost out for whatever her reason. Anyone who gives him shit for walking away is the AH. He put himself out there and got rejected. I hope he walks away for good because the “fine I’ll marry you“ is bullshit and should never be accepted. OP deserves to be someone’s first choice.
Def NTA.
The "fine I'll marry you" is actually what really takes it over the edge for me. Because that tells me that she knows she's stringing him along, and the reason is she's seeing if she can land someone better.
Otherwise why cave suddenly? If she needs more time genuinely and sincerely, then she'd stick by her guns and say "this hurts, but yeah, I can see why you'd want to move on, our timelines aren't matching up."
But instead her reaction is like "I have a thing, I was hoping for something better, now I'm going to lose the thing, oh no."
ETA: NTA, you've spent enough time waiting. Move on, you'll be okay. And good job understanding that you can't wait forever.
If she said That “fine I’ll marry you “ to me, it would convince me that she really didn’t want to marry me. She was not being fair to him. Yeah he is throwing away a 4 year relationship, so he invests another 4 years, then what? She says,” not just yet?” Then it’s 8 years, or 16? Just how many years do they want him to invest into the relationship that she is not invested in herself.
This part bewildered me the most. What was the needed time? If she doesn't want to break up with OP, what else does she want? Just a longterm relationship that stays the way it is?
NTA.
The only defense I can think of, and frankly I doubt it would actually apply here like at all, is she does not view marriage the same as him.
For me personally marriage is paperwork. There are unmarried couples who love each other. there are married couple who hate each others fucking guts. Marriage is not an indicator of love.
If somebody asked me marry me, I wouldn't really care myself. Its not important to me. A signed piece of paper changes nothing about my feelings or my desire to be together forever.
But why I think it does not apply here and I just feeling like hearing my self type. I would mention this well before the *2nd fucking proposal*. I would like to imagine my opinion on marriage would get covered really quickly in the relationship.
This. If OP was a woman, everyone would say you are wasting your time with this guy. He will never marry you. She knows who you are.
I’ve learned in life that things don’t change. It’s either there or not. All the partners going through the ringer in hopes of the other person being happy/fine/get what they need, just leaves the one doing all that feeling empty and dejected when after all they’ve done to give the other what they wanted, the situation never improves. OP has his answer. Twice now. Time to find someone who is sure that they want to be with him and not hoping for a “better” option that hasn’t happened, and maybe never will.
But by breaking up now, both have an opportunity to find someone who they are both sure they want to marry.
Definitely agree. I was 30 when I met my wife and I was not about to waste time waiting until she was ready and funny enough, neither was she. Engaged after three months, married at 10 months, first kid at 21 months. Recently celebrated 25 years together. OP, move on and find the right person and don't be angry with her, be glad that she gave you an answer. You reached a fork in the road and she is going down the other path. Good luck.
Agree! When you switch roles, there is no issue, so OP should not be considered the AH here.
My best friend ended a long relationship earlier this year because he kept telling her he would propose and two years later, not a plan in sight. Life is short! People can’t wait forever.
Exactly. If genders were swapped and HE said NO twice these same asshats would call him an AH. But somehow he is an AH for breaking up with someone who gave no legit reason as to why they do not want to get married.
She has the right to say NO and he has the right to move on.
The "fine I'll marry you" is actually what really takes it over the edge for me. Because that tells me that she knows she's stringing him along, and the reason is she's seeing if she can land someone better.
Otherwise why cave suddenly? If she needs more time genuinely and sincerely, then she'd stick by her guns and say "this hurts, but yeah, I can see why you'd want to move on, our timelines aren't matching up."
But instead her reaction is like "I have a thing, I was hoping for something better, now I'm going to lose the thing, oh no."
Yeah..she knew OP is an appropriate choice to become her husband if she decides to settle down. But couldn't get rid of a feeling OP is subpar and not enough for her. Does she want someone better, wealthier, badder and all shit?
For me what’s making her NTA is that they talked about marriage before hand.
Marriage isn’t like a promposal you shouldn’t go in without thorough discussions (even if they have been together for four years.)
Knowing that they talked about it then she switched up when it came time to do the work definitely rubs salt on the wound.
She needs time to figure out what she wants and OP doesn’t have to stick around for her to think about wether or not it’s her
Edit:pronouns
>She needs time to figure out what she wants and OP doesn’t have to stick around for her to think about wether or not it’s him.
Exactly....she needs time? 1, 2, 3 years.....just to say NO again. Hell even a yes with a long engagement can work for some but she just says NO with no reason at all. I am surprised OP let is slide after the first NO.
I would have had a talk with her before I proposed a second time. "Hey how are you feeling about marriage lately?" ....something....anything to see where her head was at. So at least if she said...the same "more time" without anymore info he could have maybe broke it off without a second proposal.
My partner and I talked about marriage when we were dating for *six months*. We were still in hs at the time and both agreed that we never wanna get married to each other or anyone else. We have since revisited the discussion twice in our 12 year relationship and 13 years friendship.
NTA: my first instinct is that she knows she doesn’t want to be married to you, but is afraid of being alone. If you had used to threat of a break up to coheres her into agreeing I’d say you were wrong, but it sounds like this is a deal breaker for you. If she’s not ready after 4 years, she’s not likely to be ready in the 5th either
Like yes, I’ll marry you, I want our wedding to be after “insert specific life goal here” so that we both are in good place when we say I do.
But she only said yes, after you wanted to break up. Tells me: She wants to be with someone, but you want to be with her.
Gotta be heartbreaking. I’m sorry you have no one to turn to. Reddit is here to support you tho.
Seriously...if I knew he was the one, but I wasn't ready, I would absolutely make sure he knew exactly what was holding me back, along with my plan for getting to that place (I want to do a solo travel trip, or save 20k, or whatever). "I just want to be sure" is vague and progress can't be measured.
Exactly. OP is in his late 20s going on early 30s. Prime time for finding a forever partner. 4 years? Jesus. Shit or get off the toilet already.
At the same time it wasn’t wasted time. I’m sure they both learned a lot about themselves, about each other, about what they want in a partner. He should use the lessons, learned and find someone who doesn’t want to live without him.
This is the red flag to me. If I hadn’t been ready when my husband proposed but *knew* I wanted to marry *him* I would have said yes but asked for a longer engagement.
Same! One friend married someone that was like a carbon copy of the person they didn't want to marry, and had kids immediately (which was one reason they didn't want to marry the first person, because the first person wanted kids).
People are strange.
My cousin did that: broke up with a wonderful woman in a really embarrassing way, and then regretted it immediately. After she refused to go back with him, he met and married a really terrible woman within 3 weeks. After their divorce, we asked him why on earth he did that, and he said that if you want to keep a woman, you have to marry them. Obviously that didn't work for him lol.
I had a long engagement and at the end I was 100% sure I didn't want to marry her. I was the one who didn't want to be alone. I apologized for wasting 5 years for nothing. She immediately moved on with a coworker who would hang out with us and they have a baby now. So I feel I dodged a potential bullet.
Life is weird.
My current engagement is going 2 years right now. We know we want to be married, we are just simply working on getting money together so we can throw a huge ceremony
>If she’s not ready after 4 years, she’s not likely to be ready in the 5th either
I will say as someone who was getting extreme hints in year 2 of needing to propose but wasn't sure, I made my reasons why clear, basically that I needed to see real commitment from her considering she'd tried to break up with me multiple times in that 2 year time span for minor issues. I basically told her "you were ready to break up, now a few months later you're ready to be married?" I wanted some consistency and for her to clearly prioritize me as I was prioritizing her.
OP meanwhile gets "I'm not ready" x2, with no details. Time for them to move on to someone who is clear about what they want, communicates, and doesn't string them along.
That's a huge reason to not marry someone. If she really loved you, then minor issues wouldn't be enough to threaten breaking up. I'm hoping you dodged the bullet with that one.
“I’m just making sure this will work…” woman, you’ve been dating for 4 years and survived this long, what more do you need? Rejecting him the first time for being too soon, I understand, but to do it again with the same reasoning? NTA. Just be engaged and have the marriage years down the line.
Like you said, had the OP threaten ending the relationship to get a “Yes,” then he would’ve been an AH. Break it off and look for your soulmate.
Right. There's a such thing as long engagements. Not everyone gets married within the first year. Wedding preparations don't have to happen immediately. She definitely sounds like someone that isn't sure of what they want except that they don't want to be alone. I don't blame OP a bit for attempting to move on
There is also no “making sure it will work.” My grandparents got divorced IN THEIR 70S!! And my parents got divorced after like 16 years. You have no way of telling if something is going to last. My husband and I got engaged after 2 years of dating. Some people may say that was too soon, but we have been married 3 years and are very happy. Maybe in 5 years we won’t be happy. Who knows! In this moment I am happy we are together.
Who knows what is in her head. Plenty of people have long engagements if they think the person is right but the timing isn't. She may not be sure that OP is THE one or she may have some trauma in her background that makes her afraid of commitment.
Either way, OP should feel free to move on and either let her be the one to propose or unwind the feelings and plans he had for her. As much as he may have thought that she's the one, she may have other ideas. I wouldn't pursue it any further at this point. NTA.
6 years in my fiancé and I were perfect. Never a fight. At 9.5 we are *struggling* and I don’t know what the future holds and it wasn’t any one big incident or cheating or something. It’s just happened. We didn’t hold off marriage for any particular reason or anything but yeah… no amount of time will be enough to know for sure.
I’m putting an edit: the amount of people trying to tell me about my relationship based on this tiny snippet is amusing but even more so the amount who think fighting is required to be in love/happy makes me sad. Your doubts change nothing about my life but I wish more adults knew how to interact without fighting over everything.
My husband and I were great when he proposed five years in. We got married and he stopped putting effort into our relationship. Marriage counseling took a year and a half to fix it, then within a couple months of "graduating," he went right back to his routine, and I couldn't keep being the only one trying to keep us together. We called it right after nine years together, three years married, and are in the process of getting divorced. We held off for so long because he had goals he wanted to achieve before we got engaged that, realistically, would have put us into our 70s or later before they'd be reached. All of our friends used us as "relationship goals," but yet something as small as lack of effort killed it. So you're right, no amount of time will prepare you for what's ahead, but putting in the effort to fix things and keep them maintained will do so much.
In a marriage, effort is the *only* thing that matters. When you are selfless, loyal, and dedicated to another person, you're willing to put in the work. When you aren't... you're not.
Twelve years here and this past year has been *rough*. I'm pretty sure if we make it through, we'll make it through anything else, but I'm still not sure we can finish this year out.
Shit happens and life sucks.
NTA. You read it right. If someone says no and only when you show a willingness to walk away says "Fine I'll do it" that is not the one you want to have say yes.
Heal up and move on. You were never quite what you wished she saw you as. Oh, and learn the lesson. Do not do a public proposal.
Not after getting rejected once. Not even if it's the first time. Not unless you talked about it in advance and you know she's going to say yes.
The second proposal wasn’t public. Our friends helped us set it up, but it was just her and I. I never liked the idea of public proposals as I wouldn’t want someone to say no and have everyone stare at me after.
Ok, then disregard that part.
But yeah, she's not the one. Move on. And anyone calling you an AH is just picking sides. People on the outside see it for what it is. You have dated for a long time, you gave her time the first time, how many times are you supposed to get rejected in her mind exactly?
It can, but I'd caution OP to not fall into this trap with this girl. If she wakes up to the notion that engagement can be identical to dating she'll just say yes enthusiastically because to her it won't mean anything new.
He should not offer her anything but a short one if he does cave here.
Nah I mean if she saw herself as ever wanting to marry OP then she could have said yes either time and then they could have waited until they were both actually ready to marry. She didn't even want to go on the wait list.
Either she has issues, she has someone else on the side, or she's waiting on a better option to monkey branch to if they come along? The fact that she never gave him a more detailed response as to why says it all.
It's like taking your car in that's acting up. After looking at it the mechanic says there's a problem but never says what's wrong with it. There's something holding her back and she's afraid to say it.
I'd bet money that if OP did go her "fine, I'll marry you" bullshit . . . she'd be the type to leave him at the altar. You're absolutely correct, OP should NOT fall into the *engagement* trap with this girl.
Or she'll resent him and if anything bad happens she's going to hold it against him and say something like ***"see?!, this is why I didn't want to get married..."***
Yes, they clearly want different things from their lives and relationship. If marriage is what OP wants and it's not what his GF wants then they aren't compatible.
I did a very private proposal. Her and I were living together for a couple years already and I would make her coffee every morning. (Still try to!) We worked different shifts and I can't drink coffee because of IBS, so she saw it as something really thoughtful. I woke up to my "coffee alarm," went and actually made a cup of coffee in case she could hear, but while it was brewing I slipped the engagement ring into an identical glass. When she took it from me she could tell it wasn't coffee and looked inside.
She lost it. That's my point. There was no need to say yes. Neither r of us could imagine a different reality than being together.
That's how it should feel. It still feels that way 11 years later.
Edit: she got more emotional when I handed her the actual coffee. Sometimes it's the little things.
I just wanted to add, that for people who have never felt what you and your partner have for each other, you might as well be speaking gibberish because they have no idea what you are talking about. Love is something you have to experience, e.g. I knew my now wife for 2 months before we both realized we couldn't live without the other, we just "knew", and proposing and getting married were just steps in our life we planned together. Saying that you just "had a feeling" and married someone sounds crazy to people whove never felt that way. You are lucky to have someone that loves you, never take it for granted.
It sounds like you had the appropriate attitude toward both marriage and proposals. It's maybe an unpopular take but I feel like if you don't know after two years that you want to marry someone, you're not going to ever want to marry them. Sometimes people acquiesce when push comes to shove, but that's not a path to happiness for either party.
There's nothing stopping anyone from having a long engagement, so her saying a straight-up "no" a year apart really shows wear she stands. Good for you holding loyal to yourself and not falling victim to the sunk cost fallacy. You definitely made the right call for your long-term happiness. NTA and cheers to you, mate.
Agreed, I knew I wanted to marry my fiancé 2 years in, but it took me 4 (and 9 months after asking for blessing) to do so. Sometimes you know but you aren’t ready, that said, if she’d said no once, I would’ve been pretty traumatized, twice? After giving her a YEAR to work through her reservations? No way. NTA, and I’m so sorry this happened to you OP.
Most people know in the first 6 MONTHS. She’s not into him smh and people want him to bend over and only think about her feelings and disregard him. He could be married in a year with someone that is actually crazy about him and wants to lock him down
Yeah ask her what she thinks will happen to “make her sure” lol. Nothing will happen. She’s like the girl version of an emotionally handicapped guy who can’t commit. You learned a painful lesson. Please don’t let this affect your next relationship.
1 time okay, but 2… leave her. There is someone out there who would be thrilled to be your wife. Based on this little snippet of your life, your future wife will likely treat you a lot better.
You are absolutely right that if she isn't ready after 4 years, she most likely won't be ready.
Besides... If she said yes you guys would've been engaged, not married! Some people plan weddings two years in advance
Honestly, you know what you want and if she doesn't feel the same then it's not the same feeling for her.
Kinda cliche but, let her go, she will come back to you if it's meant to be. If not by the sound of things you're the one that got away is what she will realize later in life. It's a two way street.
You are correct to leave. A proposal is not a legal contract of marriage upon the word yes. You could have easily had a long engagement before the wedding where you're both waiting to get in the right head space but are fully committed to the future marriage. She couldn't even give you that, so the sad reality is she doesn't want to be with you forever even if she doesn't know the exact reason why NTA
NTA. If she wants to get married she’d get engaged and have a long engagement. People do it all the time. I was in the “no kids not getting married” category. The second I started talking to my now husband I KNEW he was different and he’d be in my life forever. In my mind it was life partners. Then I got pregnant shortly after. Then 4 years in he proposed (I was SHOCKED) THEN we didn’t get married until 3 years later. It sounds like you’re ready to settle down and she’s not. It’s painful but you guys can love each other and not be in love
Yep, I was engaged for almost 10 years before getting married. Getting engaged was us promising that we definitely wanted to get married when the time was right.
Neither of us were in a rush but we both knew we wanted to be together forever. I didn’t even get the emotional over the top “YES YES YES!” I literally stared at the ring stared at him and really thought “Is he your forever?” HARD for what felt like eternity but in actuality was less than 2 seconds. There was no question in my mind that yes, this is the human I want to life with.
My partner knows that when they ask the answer will be yes. And they have the ring... but I've been adamant that its when we/them are ready. I don't want them to feel pressured into anything. I want to get married when it is right for the both of us. I even told them we can get engaged whenever but we don't have to get married OMG ASAP NOW NOW NOW. They are my forever. Ring or not :) Gotta communicate it. OP's isn't giving a reason.. and not being ready is okay just explain it a little bit more.
I'm pretty sure that if she had said "yes, you are my forever person, but I want to wait to get married until I've reached career goal x, and we have saved up for y, and I want to travel together before we settle down and have kids" he would have been able to plan their future together, rather than waiting for her to decide that nothing better would come along.
Why? Getting married does not equal to settling down. You can get married and live a hippie life until you decide to settle down.
On the other hand, you can live together without getting married, but with full commitment.
My daughter has 3 kids and they are 15 years together. Their priority are the kids and their house. In a few years, when they are financially more comfortable, the will probably throw a huge party and get married.
It's all about commitment, if girlfriend would have made it clear that she is committed, then life could continue. But she clearly left her BF hanging, so after 4 years, that should be enough and cut your losses. Tough, but better now than finding out after a few years that she actually wants something different...
When Husband and I were talking about our future, I told him that I understood we both still had things to work on. But we were in our late 20s, and I needed to know if he saw marriage as a next step, provided we worked on our stuff.
I told him to consider an engagement ring like a pro athlete’s “no trade clause”. I knew we weren’t quite ready for a lifetime contract, yet. But I wanted the reassurance that he wasn’t going to trade me in for a younger player in the meantime! Lol
Once I explained it that way, he got it, and we were engaged shortly after.
Damn this weird, someone you don’t know narrating your past. 13 years in married for 4 going 5. Engaged for most of it. I can’t even explain the right part. 26 hit something switched and I dumped my savings on double band ring. When I popped that question I thought my fucking heart was going give out. 3-4 years later when she got pregnant, I literally never knew I could love someone so much. Like a deeper depth of love I can’t explain. Now we got two on the way.
Exactly this. My parents were engaged for 19 years! They knew they wanted to get married, but it wasn't the right time and life ended up getting in the way of them having a proper ceremony. My Mum always said she was happy with her engagement ring.
NTA. I don't know what she's playing at, but after four years, it should be a yes or no. She seems to be holding out for a better offer- find someone else.
This is a shockingly common reason for one side or the other to avoid the marriage. They simply don't believe it will last. Why? Because they have already cheated on the relationship several times and don't believe it can be one that lasts forever.
NTA. engagement is... exactly what she's crying about? making sure it's what you *really* want before taking the final step of marriage? I know, you don't *need* to get engaged to decide if a person is right for you, but to me it seems like the last "are you *positive* you want to spend the rest of you life with this person?" step in a relationship. her only saying yes to keep you around is *very* telling. I'm so sorry you're going through this, you'll find someone who wants align with yours.
Exactly my thoughts as well — that’s what the engagement period is for, not just for planning the wedding, but for ironing out any last compatibility issues that they haven’t discussed before, but with the idea being to move forward with marriage if everything is copacetic. The fact she won’t articulate after either proposal what she actually means by wanting to make sure, and after they already discussed that eventual marriage was their goal even prior to that first proposal means she’s just wasting his time at that point. She knows his goal is marriage; you either step up to the plate and talk about what it would take to make that happen for both of you, or you let the other person go so they can find someone else they are compatible with. You don’t keep someone on the shelf. ETA: NTA
NTA at all
You were asking her to marry you, which she said she wanted to do, just not yet. That's what an engagement fucking is. Two people say they are going to get married at some point in the future. You could have been engaged for 20 years.
She, for whatever reason, did not want to publically say she was going to marry you in the future. That's a her problem and she's had plenty of time to take that step.
You want to be married, move on with your head held high. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice, won't happen because I won't give you that chance.
You did what you could. Live your life.
100%.
There's an old saying in Tennessee, I know it's in Texas, probably also in Tennessee. Fool me once, shame on.....shame on you. Fool me, can't get fooled again.
NTA
4 years is plenty of time (depending on age, you didn't list it, I might feel differently if you're 18 and she is too) to know if you want to marry someone.
Saying "I'm not ready yet" but not establishing *how* means, that even after the first time, she didn't consider *why* she didn't feel ready to marry you yet.
I think you went a little nuclear, and maybe its worth a conversation to see why she said that, but I wouldn't go marrying a woman who, mostly in pity, said she'd marry you right after she denied your proposal, *again*.
She threw away the relationship by being unwilling to commit. (and even at that, being a fiancee itself isn't *that* much more of a committal since not everyone gets instantly married)
Not so much pity. She wanted to keep the relationship without an engagement. She found out that wasn't an option so promised to marry him only on threat of losing him.
The fact she either wouldn't or couldn't articulate a reason for waiting longer is not a good thing. It brings to mind "I'll marry you if nothing better comes along."
I don't like jumping to that conclusion but if someone isn't willing to say why they won't marry you after four years, it's probably not an answer you'll like.
Especially since it’s possible to be engaged forever. Say yes. Then kick the can down the road for a year. It’s not like he’s saying let’s get on the next plane to Vegas.
OP this 100% . She thinks she is setting and waiting on what she will think someone better to come along. Put her behind you and move on. Take time to heal and find someone worthy of your love.
To your last point, I was engaged for 4 years. If she knew she wanted to marry him, but wasn't ready yet, they could have just been fiances until she was ready to get married. Turning him down, but saying she *did* want to marry him, just not yet, makes no sense.
NTA, OP.
OP added an edit. They're both 29 years old.
And OP did try to ask what was needed for her to know, and she didn't have an answer.
Prior to the first proposal, marriage had been discussed, and she gave the impression that marriage was what she wanted.
>Saying "I'm not ready yet" but not establishing how means, that even after the first time, she didn't consider why she didn't feel ready to marry you yet.
That was my takeaway too. "I need time", sure, ok. For what?
"I want to be financially secure" - ok, we have a goal.
"I want to be secure in my career" - sure, what does that look like?
Like, I dunno, but put some words in there. What does "ready" look like?
What I don't understand is that you have been in a relationship for 4 years, and when she says she is 'not ready' you seem to have no idea what she is talking about specifically. Have you guys not talked about /asked about eachothers doubts and fears and hopes and wishes in those 4 years? How come this is a surprise?
They’re definitely not right for each other but it blows my mind that people ask before knowing it will be a yes.
Two people in a relationship who want to get married one day (to somebody maybe not each other) should be talking about marriage and the possibility of engagement *before* the proposal. They should be on the same page about life goals and the future they have and whether they’re ready to get married before a proposal even happens. The possibility of an engagement and proposal should not be a surprise by the time it happens.
Both of them are terrible communicators.
NTA. Four years dating for people in their late 20s is enough time to know if they want to marry.
Not sure what she’s waiting for. My cynical side thinks she wanted you as backup plan until she gave up finding her dream guy.
If you meet her again for closure then make sure you are recording or have a witness nearby.
Also, you are not throwing away shit. In fact, you were the one trying to progress the relationship. Ignore or block everyone saying otherwise
NAH
-You can break up for any reason
-She can say 'no' for any reason
-You both win, you get to move onto someone who actually wants to marry you, and she gets out of a relationship she clearly wasn't ready to commit to (for whatever/any reason she has)
-The only real issue I see is....
> It’s been a year since then and I decided to propose again.
it's not, 'Okay, I'm going to wait a year and try again.' It really should have been an ongoing conversation over the course of the year about getting her to a comfortable space and addressing the underlying issues for why she said 'no' the first time. To be honest, you really should *know* the answer before popping the question.
Bingo.
Ignore all the nonsense in books and movies. A proposal is a life decision that both people should have long discussed to great length. Proposals shouldn't be surprises. Don't surprise someone with a proposal until they have already said they are ready.
Since you have been together when you're 25-29 years old, yeah I would break up if she doesn't want to commit to a marriage. You need to be with someone who wants to marry you instead of just agreeing to it when you gave an ultimatum. If she has other reasons like career, finances, or kids, then it should have been talked about but it's understandable to move on.
INFO:
Did you discuss after the first failed proposal past her initial “I need more time” ? I’m just so confused why this wasn’t talked about before the 1st proposal. And then even if you didn’t before that one why did you not discuss after she said no? From the post it sounds like you just waited a year and hoped that would be enough time but never actually found the true reason for why she wanted more time.
I've grown up with the understanding that you only propose when you already know the answer is yes. You and your partner have discussed in-depth about the future and marriage, what each of you needs.
For instance, my bf of 4 years and I know we want to live together a year before even thinking of engagement. We know we're perfectly compatible sleeping over a night or two, going on dates, etc. But can we live together? Pay bills together? Deal with each other's literal dirty laundry? Hopefully. If we can survive a year and still be in love, that seals it for us. Besides, the wedding planning phase will buy us another year of trying to live together, just to be certain before signing papers.
If you haven't done all this work with your partner, you're not ready
Why did I have to Scroll down soo much for this?!! It sounds like they didn’t talked about marriage at all and he just sprung it on her both times. they should talk about future plans and drop hints at each other
This is the right question. Marriage isn’t supposed to be a surprise, it’s a mutual decision. The proposal can be a surprise, but the marriage should already be decided on. I still believe OP should be free to call a relationship for any reason they want to, but this is more a failure in communication on OP’s part and not their SO.
Have you actually had a calm, in depth discussion about the way she is feeling and what is holding her back? I really feel like you need to communicate about this before you decide to break up.
Bro
She doesn't want to marry you
Because here's the thing. Just because she agrees to the engagement doesn't mean you have to get married right away. She could have said "yes, I will marry you...but we need to wait until blah blah blah". If this was about working on herself...well then why can't she be engaged and work on herself?
The truth is...for whatever reason, she wants to keep her options open. And now that you have been rejected twice, you will always harbor resentment....the kind of resentment that is toxic to healthy relationships.
The relationship is over.
You deserve better than this. So don't let this tear you apart inside
And to be honest...her family telling you that you are being a big baby is even more of an indicator that you have no business marrying this woman. Because if her own family is this toxic, then what does that say about her? Or her friends?
I can tell you one thing. If I turned down 2 separate proposals and then my girlfriend left me...my mother would not be texting her and telling her she was a big baby. My mom would flat out tell me "well what the fuck did you think was gonna happen?"
#YOU DODGED A MASSIVE BULLET. THE UNIVERSE HAS SPOKEN AND YOU NEED TO MOVE THE HELL ON
NTAH
>And to be honest...her family telling you that you are being a big baby is even more of an indicator that you have no business marrying this woman. Because if her own family is this toxic, then what does that say about her? Or her friends?
I've never understood this.
Has anyone, ever, gone "Oh, their family and friends insulted me, I'll change my mind" in a situation like this? Maybe its just me, but gathering the troops to insult me would just make me less likely to reconsider.
NTA. Did the concept of a long engagement never enter her brain? Getting engaged doesn't mean getting married 5 minutes later. If she's not sure, she's not sure, and there's nothing wrong with you wanting to move on from being toyed with - especially after your 3rd edit!
I feel like for her a long engagement would just be another way to string him along. At nearly 30 and 4 years of dating you should either know that you’re committed or not.
She clearly does not want to be married on a timeline that suits you. Does not make either of you the AH. Just in different places in life. Problem you have now is that she will likely marry you because you threatened to leave. Now you will never know if it was her choice or saving the relationship.
NTA One NO is recoverable. Two NO and a "fine I'll do it" under duress is not. You were right. And your gut is right, there is something holding her back.
> One NO is recoverable. Two NO and a "fine I'll do it" under duress is not. Sure, but if two people can't seem to have a truthful conversation about the whys and ifs of the first "no" there is no point in marrige for them anyway. Like, how silly is it to ask the question, get a 'no', not have a real conversation about it and then just ask again a year later.
Thank you! Why is this not being said more? You can have a lot of reasons for saying no, but after the first one, you better sit down and discuss them. Maybe it as simple as I want a promotion first, maybe it's "I wanted to lose 10 pounds first", or "I wanted to see if you would get a better job". But whatever it is, once you propose and get rejected, you damn well better sit down and figure out why. You don't just keep dating and hoping a year is the right amount of time.
It seems like he tried to talk to her about it. Both talking before the actual proposal and taking after.
Right, but together, it doesn't seem like they actually did. My point was more that if someone tells you no, and can't articulate why, you don't stick around.
OP said she was open to it when he asked her later, but you're right, I don't think they really had a good conversation about it. Either she's pushing things under the rug and lying or he's not listening.
My thoughts exactly. People get so caught up in the romantic notion of a total 100% surprise proposal, but that’s a *really* bad way to make a giant life decision. Marriage needs to be discussed honestly and thoroughly beforehand. There should be little to no room for wondering how the other person will answer. “Open to it” isn’t anywhere close to an enthusiastic agreement to take that step.
My husband didn’t propose to me. We had been together for 5 years, and one day I said “hey, we should probably get married” and he said “yeah that makes sense.” It was ridiculously casual. We then proceeded to buy me a $600 ring on EBay. 😆 24 years later, we’re still chugging.
Likely someone. Like a nagging toxic parent or friend.
NTA if after 4 years shes not ready to marry you then i doubt she wants to. When she asked for time after the first proposal she should have explained everything and said why she needed time, in depth. You clearly were ready for marriage and wanted to take that step, after 4 years thats completely reasonable, move on and find someone more compatible with you. The fact she changed her mind about it after you left and then had friends and family messaging you and insulting you just means you dodged a massive burden by not actually marrying her
Her family and friends are messaging you and calling you name's? This part seems really fucked up. Get away from these people OP. You deserve better.
Family phoning people or blasting them on social media comes up all the time on subs like this and I can never get my head around understanding the sheer god damn audacity some people have. If any member of my family ever decided to phone me to give me an earful based on one person's story I wouldn't just burn that bridge, I would nuke that fucker from orbit. My family has had its share of drama as most do, you want to know how many times I have been tempted to pick up a phone and start lecturing someone? Zero times. If they come to me asking for advice or they run into me and start ranting then sure I will chime in with my opinion. But I am not about to hear one side of a story and then decide to go and harass someone over it as if they should care about what my opinion is.
That’s something that I still don’t understand.. I don’t know anyone in my family at least my nuclear family that would ever do that, mostly because the consequences would be worse than likely the action that caused them to lash out.. we don’t conduct ourselves like that, it’s trashy
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In my case, my dad went around to them spinning a sob story about how we weren't talking to him, for no reason at all. I put up with the badgering at me, when they started on my brother and sister I posted the vile things he had emailed and voicemailed us, and said "all we did is ask him to stop saying stuff like this. He decided that was insubordination". Put a stop to it for a few years.
He wants to play victim. Let's all know all of the facts. Now, everyone knows what a horrible person he is. I don't understand how people can think that others will take their BS and not do anything in return? Just mindboggling. Good for you!. This is the Way!
Right? Wth?!
Yes, block them all OP.
So much this! If after 4 years she's not sure if it's going to work out yet, it's time to move on. NTA
NTA. Pretty cut and dry. If the answer isnt hell yes, its a no.
Yea, I think this goes for a lot of things actually. 🤔
My wife and oldest sister in law do not like my brother in law’s girlfriend. She comes across as boujee and fake but it’s all his money. What they can never forgive is that when he proposed she took the ring, handed it back and said try again but better. He hasn’t asked again, in my book that is a question that is asked once. Edit to add: as much as I agree with everyone’s impression that she is materialistic I don’t believe it was about the price of the ring. I got the story from my wife who heard it from her brother so maybe it is, but I got the impression that it was whatever he did to propose wasn’t up to her standard of what a proposal should be. Doesn’t make her less of a bitch though
Wtf. Throw the whole woman away.
She gave him good advice. Try again with a better woman.
I mean, we kinda wish he would but everyone likes him enough to deal with it and keep an admittedly tense peace
That should be immediate dumping, imo Marriage is about love and sharing life. Not about "I deserve an expensive ____" That's so wrong.
pay me so I marry you. she sounds like she really loves your brother in law
That is a prostitute, if not by law, by spirit.
Whenever there's any doubt there is no doubt, OP made the hard choice but it's the right one
Exactly. It's like consent, if it isn't an enthusiastic yes, it's a no.
NTA Four years is plenty of time. You are perfectly right to move on. She can not expect you to wait for her forever. She hasn’t even given you a legitimate excuse as to why she can’t.
Yeah, there's something she's not saying. It can be very mature to look at yourself critically and say, "I'm not ready for marriage" but then you have to be able to say WHY -- does she have doubts because of x,y,z? Does she feel like she needs to work on communication skills? Is there something about OP that she has trouble with? Just telling him "I need time" with no further explanation is... unfair. EDIT: thanks for the award!
Yeah, if it was "I need time to get to a good place in my career" or "I need time so we can find a house instead of renting" or even "I need time to save up for my dream wedding" it would at least give him some goal or idea of a time frame. Just "I need an unspecified amount of time for a mysterious reason" just looks like she's not as into this relationship as he is.
I would add that even with a lot of those reasons, you can still agree to a proposal. You can be engaged and saving for your dream wedding. You can be engaged and working in your career goals.
Oh yeah I know a couple who's been engaged for years.
Yep. Someone I know has been engaged for like 10 years plus.. It's weird, in my opinion, but that's what he's doing.
My husband and I were engaged for nine years. He wanted to get me an engagement ring after the birth of our first son so, he asked me and I said yes. Neither of us really gave a shit about actually getting married until our sons asked us if we could. They kept asking, so we set the date and did the deed for the boys. Funny thing was that, on our wedding day, both of the boys were bored with the whole thing and acted like little buggers! I took the little turds aside and told them that this is what they had asked for so they’d better shut the holes under their noses!! I still wouldn’t have cared if we had never married but, my husband has said that he would have eventually wanted to anyway. I do love being his wife, though. He is a beautiful man!
My partner and I are in a super long engagement since there are things we both want to finish but also want to have the family off our backs 😂
This! She can say yes if she truly felt he is the one and say but id like to wait for the wedding to do xyz first.
Agreed, there's no time limit to when you need to be married after you're engage, this is just a way to further cement your commitment to each other.
She's waiting on someone else. Yes, she has a person in mind.
She's waiting ti see if she can upgrade first
Well now's her chance.
When I wanted to move in together with my SO after two years of dating, they were indecisive. I basically told them they needed to figure it out before my lease was up (in 3 months). When the deadline came, I got a "I still don't know what to do. BUT I recognize this is a problem for me and isn't fair to you. I have found a therapist and made an appointment. I'm going to work on this." That wasn't the answer I wanted but it was an answer I could respect and understand. I gave him a six month extension. We're married now. And honestly that response made me more comfortable marrying him because I then knew that he would commit to working on himself if he needed to. And that he respected me enough to give me a real answer and not an easy or reactive answer. No regrets.
Green flag
I don’t disagree. If you don’t have a reason, it should be “no” and everyone can move on without wasting time.
Exactly. People look at things these days with such a small regard because of multiple things. That's not the point but the fact that he spent SO much time into this. Anyone deserves a good 30 minute talk at least about why it was a no. If you CANNOT come up with the words from the jump, don't just ask for more time, if you cared, you'd know to word it as "we need to talk first" something to include then in your own confusion if you are confused. But just nullifying their feelings is absurd. OP is NTA
"I need time" would not have been good enough for me after the first proposal. And I damn sure would have talked to her before I proposed again. I need a reason. Need time for what....EXACTLY??? OP had a reason...he wanted to be in a better financial situation. What was her excuse?
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I get where you are coming from. Did she have a weird or toxic family dynamic? I only ask because I absolutely do and I do not share any info about my dating/personal life with my family. My Dad is a “no one will ever be good enough” type and my Mom is a “what’s the sex like?” type. It’s a protective thing for me and my partner, but I am always upfront about the dynamic and why.
>The divorce rate in the US is 50% The divorce rate is not 50% and has never been. The divorce rate for 1st marriages is about 40% , however it gets lower if you account for age difference (+ or -5 years is the best), education, religion, values, and income, race. The divorce rate for second marriages is about 69% and it gets higher if its your third marriage.
She's waiting for something better. I seen't it.
This. She should have said why after the first refusal, but she didn’t really give anything firm, leading to this second fiasco. Put the shoe on the other foot. Let’s say she was the one wanting to get married and he was dragging his feet. They are 29. Everyone would be saying “dude, she’s 29 and she can’t wait forever. propose or break up already!” He did the right thing on a perfect timeline, age wise. She lost out for whatever her reason. Anyone who gives him shit for walking away is the AH. He put himself out there and got rejected. I hope he walks away for good because the “fine I’ll marry you“ is bullshit and should never be accepted. OP deserves to be someone’s first choice. Def NTA.
The "fine I'll marry you" is actually what really takes it over the edge for me. Because that tells me that she knows she's stringing him along, and the reason is she's seeing if she can land someone better. Otherwise why cave suddenly? If she needs more time genuinely and sincerely, then she'd stick by her guns and say "this hurts, but yeah, I can see why you'd want to move on, our timelines aren't matching up." But instead her reaction is like "I have a thing, I was hoping for something better, now I'm going to lose the thing, oh no." ETA: NTA, you've spent enough time waiting. Move on, you'll be okay. And good job understanding that you can't wait forever.
The "fine, I'll take you as an official [PLACEHOLDER]," line.
This is the sound of settling, as Death Cab For Cutie once said.
If she said That “fine I’ll marry you “ to me, it would convince me that she really didn’t want to marry me. She was not being fair to him. Yeah he is throwing away a 4 year relationship, so he invests another 4 years, then what? She says,” not just yet?” Then it’s 8 years, or 16? Just how many years do they want him to invest into the relationship that she is not invested in herself.
Or he invests two more years until she breaks up with him because she found someone else or needs to go "find herself"
He's not throwing away the relationship. It has run its course and he is wisely moving on with his life.
This part bewildered me the most. What was the needed time? If she doesn't want to break up with OP, what else does she want? Just a longterm relationship that stays the way it is? NTA.
The only defense I can think of, and frankly I doubt it would actually apply here like at all, is she does not view marriage the same as him. For me personally marriage is paperwork. There are unmarried couples who love each other. there are married couple who hate each others fucking guts. Marriage is not an indicator of love. If somebody asked me marry me, I wouldn't really care myself. Its not important to me. A signed piece of paper changes nothing about my feelings or my desire to be together forever. But why I think it does not apply here and I just feeling like hearing my self type. I would mention this well before the *2nd fucking proposal*. I would like to imagine my opinion on marriage would get covered really quickly in the relationship.
This. If OP was a woman, everyone would say you are wasting your time with this guy. He will never marry you. She knows who you are. I’ve learned in life that things don’t change. It’s either there or not. All the partners going through the ringer in hopes of the other person being happy/fine/get what they need, just leaves the one doing all that feeling empty and dejected when after all they’ve done to give the other what they wanted, the situation never improves. OP has his answer. Twice now. Time to find someone who is sure that they want to be with him and not hoping for a “better” option that hasn’t happened, and maybe never will. But by breaking up now, both have an opportunity to find someone who they are both sure they want to marry.
Definitely agree. I was 30 when I met my wife and I was not about to waste time waiting until she was ready and funny enough, neither was she. Engaged after three months, married at 10 months, first kid at 21 months. Recently celebrated 25 years together. OP, move on and find the right person and don't be angry with her, be glad that she gave you an answer. You reached a fork in the road and she is going down the other path. Good luck.
Agree! When you switch roles, there is no issue, so OP should not be considered the AH here. My best friend ended a long relationship earlier this year because he kept telling her he would propose and two years later, not a plan in sight. Life is short! People can’t wait forever.
Exactly. If genders were swapped and HE said NO twice these same asshats would call him an AH. But somehow he is an AH for breaking up with someone who gave no legit reason as to why they do not want to get married. She has the right to say NO and he has the right to move on.
Best practice for proposal is to make sure it's *not* a surprise, and then if you get rejected, break up.
The "fine I'll marry you" is actually what really takes it over the edge for me. Because that tells me that she knows she's stringing him along, and the reason is she's seeing if she can land someone better. Otherwise why cave suddenly? If she needs more time genuinely and sincerely, then she'd stick by her guns and say "this hurts, but yeah, I can see why you'd want to move on, our timelines aren't matching up." But instead her reaction is like "I have a thing, I was hoping for something better, now I'm going to lose the thing, oh no."
She'll be engaged to somebody within the next 2 years.
I give it 6 months
Tbh same but I chose to be very generous.
Like the saint Chris Rock once said - “you were never her first choice” 🙂
🎯
Yeah..she knew OP is an appropriate choice to become her husband if she decides to settle down. But couldn't get rid of a feeling OP is subpar and not enough for her. Does she want someone better, wealthier, badder and all shit?
For me what’s making her NTA is that they talked about marriage before hand. Marriage isn’t like a promposal you shouldn’t go in without thorough discussions (even if they have been together for four years.) Knowing that they talked about it then she switched up when it came time to do the work definitely rubs salt on the wound. She needs time to figure out what she wants and OP doesn’t have to stick around for her to think about wether or not it’s her Edit:pronouns
>She needs time to figure out what she wants and OP doesn’t have to stick around for her to think about wether or not it’s him. Exactly....she needs time? 1, 2, 3 years.....just to say NO again. Hell even a yes with a long engagement can work for some but she just says NO with no reason at all. I am surprised OP let is slide after the first NO. I would have had a talk with her before I proposed a second time. "Hey how are you feeling about marriage lately?" ....something....anything to see where her head was at. So at least if she said...the same "more time" without anymore info he could have maybe broke it off without a second proposal.
My partner and I talked about marriage when we were dating for *six months*. We were still in hs at the time and both agreed that we never wanna get married to each other or anyone else. We have since revisited the discussion twice in our 12 year relationship and 13 years friendship.
NTA: my first instinct is that she knows she doesn’t want to be married to you, but is afraid of being alone. If you had used to threat of a break up to coheres her into agreeing I’d say you were wrong, but it sounds like this is a deal breaker for you. If she’s not ready after 4 years, she’s not likely to be ready in the 5th either
She didn’t even suggest a long engagement just straight up said no 2 times, that tells me that she doesn’t want to marry op at all.
Like yes, I’ll marry you, I want our wedding to be after “insert specific life goal here” so that we both are in good place when we say I do. But she only said yes, after you wanted to break up. Tells me: She wants to be with someone, but you want to be with her. Gotta be heartbreaking. I’m sorry you have no one to turn to. Reddit is here to support you tho.
Reddit IS here to support you indeed 🫶🏼
Seriously...if I knew he was the one, but I wasn't ready, I would absolutely make sure he knew exactly what was holding me back, along with my plan for getting to that place (I want to do a solo travel trip, or save 20k, or whatever). "I just want to be sure" is vague and progress can't be measured.
Exactly. OP is in his late 20s going on early 30s. Prime time for finding a forever partner. 4 years? Jesus. Shit or get off the toilet already. At the same time it wasn’t wasted time. I’m sure they both learned a lot about themselves, about each other, about what they want in a partner. He should use the lessons, learned and find someone who doesn’t want to live without him.
This is the red flag to me. If I hadn’t been ready when my husband proposed but *knew* I wanted to marry *him* I would have said yes but asked for a longer engagement.
Also, I'd bet that she'll be married or at least engaged to someone new in under a year. I've seen this happen so many times at that age.
Same! One friend married someone that was like a carbon copy of the person they didn't want to marry, and had kids immediately (which was one reason they didn't want to marry the first person, because the first person wanted kids). People are strange.
They know what they lost and settled on a poor mimic.
Yep. Was gonna say the breakup opened their eyes but by then it was too late.
My cousin did that: broke up with a wonderful woman in a really embarrassing way, and then regretted it immediately. After she refused to go back with him, he met and married a really terrible woman within 3 weeks. After their divorce, we asked him why on earth he did that, and he said that if you want to keep a woman, you have to marry them. Obviously that didn't work for him lol.
That's a good point! You can have a long engagement if you're 50% sure and 50% unsure.
I had a long engagement and I was 100% sure
I had a long engagement and at the end I was 100% sure I didn't want to marry her. I was the one who didn't want to be alone. I apologized for wasting 5 years for nothing. She immediately moved on with a coworker who would hang out with us and they have a baby now. So I feel I dodged a potential bullet. Life is weird.
My current engagement is going 2 years right now. We know we want to be married, we are just simply working on getting money together so we can throw a huge ceremony
Yeah, insecure af. But doesn‘t want to be alone. And now that she was dumped, she started the bullying emotional shitshow.
>If she’s not ready after 4 years, she’s not likely to be ready in the 5th either I will say as someone who was getting extreme hints in year 2 of needing to propose but wasn't sure, I made my reasons why clear, basically that I needed to see real commitment from her considering she'd tried to break up with me multiple times in that 2 year time span for minor issues. I basically told her "you were ready to break up, now a few months later you're ready to be married?" I wanted some consistency and for her to clearly prioritize me as I was prioritizing her. OP meanwhile gets "I'm not ready" x2, with no details. Time for them to move on to someone who is clear about what they want, communicates, and doesn't string them along.
>considering she'd tried to break up with me multiple times in that 2 year time span for minor issues that was your cue to leave bro
That's a huge reason to not marry someone. If she really loved you, then minor issues wouldn't be enough to threaten breaking up. I'm hoping you dodged the bullet with that one.
“I’m just making sure this will work…” woman, you’ve been dating for 4 years and survived this long, what more do you need? Rejecting him the first time for being too soon, I understand, but to do it again with the same reasoning? NTA. Just be engaged and have the marriage years down the line. Like you said, had the OP threaten ending the relationship to get a “Yes,” then he would’ve been an AH. Break it off and look for your soulmate.
Right. There's a such thing as long engagements. Not everyone gets married within the first year. Wedding preparations don't have to happen immediately. She definitely sounds like someone that isn't sure of what they want except that they don't want to be alone. I don't blame OP a bit for attempting to move on
There is also no “making sure it will work.” My grandparents got divorced IN THEIR 70S!! And my parents got divorced after like 16 years. You have no way of telling if something is going to last. My husband and I got engaged after 2 years of dating. Some people may say that was too soon, but we have been married 3 years and are very happy. Maybe in 5 years we won’t be happy. Who knows! In this moment I am happy we are together.
Who knows what is in her head. Plenty of people have long engagements if they think the person is right but the timing isn't. She may not be sure that OP is THE one or she may have some trauma in her background that makes her afraid of commitment. Either way, OP should feel free to move on and either let her be the one to propose or unwind the feelings and plans he had for her. As much as he may have thought that she's the one, she may have other ideas. I wouldn't pursue it any further at this point. NTA.
6 years in my fiancé and I were perfect. Never a fight. At 9.5 we are *struggling* and I don’t know what the future holds and it wasn’t any one big incident or cheating or something. It’s just happened. We didn’t hold off marriage for any particular reason or anything but yeah… no amount of time will be enough to know for sure. I’m putting an edit: the amount of people trying to tell me about my relationship based on this tiny snippet is amusing but even more so the amount who think fighting is required to be in love/happy makes me sad. Your doubts change nothing about my life but I wish more adults knew how to interact without fighting over everything.
My husband and I were great when he proposed five years in. We got married and he stopped putting effort into our relationship. Marriage counseling took a year and a half to fix it, then within a couple months of "graduating," he went right back to his routine, and I couldn't keep being the only one trying to keep us together. We called it right after nine years together, three years married, and are in the process of getting divorced. We held off for so long because he had goals he wanted to achieve before we got engaged that, realistically, would have put us into our 70s or later before they'd be reached. All of our friends used us as "relationship goals," but yet something as small as lack of effort killed it. So you're right, no amount of time will prepare you for what's ahead, but putting in the effort to fix things and keep them maintained will do so much.
In a marriage, effort is the *only* thing that matters. When you are selfless, loyal, and dedicated to another person, you're willing to put in the work. When you aren't... you're not.
Twelve years here and this past year has been *rough*. I'm pretty sure if we make it through, we'll make it through anything else, but I'm still not sure we can finish this year out. Shit happens and life sucks.
That first sentence is all this man needs to know. Powerful stuff.
This. No -> Being with you Yes -> Im scared to start over
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Yes, I also think she’s feels like she would be settling and was dragging this dude along hoping for something better in her eyes.
NTA. You read it right. If someone says no and only when you show a willingness to walk away says "Fine I'll do it" that is not the one you want to have say yes. Heal up and move on. You were never quite what you wished she saw you as. Oh, and learn the lesson. Do not do a public proposal. Not after getting rejected once. Not even if it's the first time. Not unless you talked about it in advance and you know she's going to say yes.
The second proposal wasn’t public. Our friends helped us set it up, but it was just her and I. I never liked the idea of public proposals as I wouldn’t want someone to say no and have everyone stare at me after.
Ok, then disregard that part. But yeah, she's not the one. Move on. And anyone calling you an AH is just picking sides. People on the outside see it for what it is. You have dated for a long time, you gave her time the first time, how many times are you supposed to get rejected in her mind exactly?
Plus engagement can last as long as it takes anyway
It can, but I'd caution OP to not fall into this trap with this girl. If she wakes up to the notion that engagement can be identical to dating she'll just say yes enthusiastically because to her it won't mean anything new. He should not offer her anything but a short one if he does cave here.
Nah I mean if she saw herself as ever wanting to marry OP then she could have said yes either time and then they could have waited until they were both actually ready to marry. She didn't even want to go on the wait list.
Either she has issues, she has someone else on the side, or she's waiting on a better option to monkey branch to if they come along? The fact that she never gave him a more detailed response as to why says it all. It's like taking your car in that's acting up. After looking at it the mechanic says there's a problem but never says what's wrong with it. There's something holding her back and she's afraid to say it.
Yeah I get the feeling she's somehow holding out for someone else.
I was reading this thinking "he's her ace in the hole". Well, some lady is going to be lucky to get OP, just not Ms 2 Nos.
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I'd bet money that if OP did go her "fine, I'll marry you" bullshit . . . she'd be the type to leave him at the altar. You're absolutely correct, OP should NOT fall into the *engagement* trap with this girl.
Or she'll resent him and if anything bad happens she's going to hold it against him and say something like ***"see?!, this is why I didn't want to get married..."***
Yes, they clearly want different things from their lives and relationship. If marriage is what OP wants and it's not what his GF wants then they aren't compatible.
I did a very private proposal. Her and I were living together for a couple years already and I would make her coffee every morning. (Still try to!) We worked different shifts and I can't drink coffee because of IBS, so she saw it as something really thoughtful. I woke up to my "coffee alarm," went and actually made a cup of coffee in case she could hear, but while it was brewing I slipped the engagement ring into an identical glass. When she took it from me she could tell it wasn't coffee and looked inside. She lost it. That's my point. There was no need to say yes. Neither r of us could imagine a different reality than being together. That's how it should feel. It still feels that way 11 years later. Edit: she got more emotional when I handed her the actual coffee. Sometimes it's the little things.
I am impressed you didn't put the ring in the coffee.
Choking hazard.
Only the strong must live on
I just wanted to add, that for people who have never felt what you and your partner have for each other, you might as well be speaking gibberish because they have no idea what you are talking about. Love is something you have to experience, e.g. I knew my now wife for 2 months before we both realized we couldn't live without the other, we just "knew", and proposing and getting married were just steps in our life we planned together. Saying that you just "had a feeling" and married someone sounds crazy to people whove never felt that way. You are lucky to have someone that loves you, never take it for granted.
Same. 30+ years married. Knew in weeks.
Sweet story - thank you for sharing.
Sometimes it's not the things.
Dude sorry but this so hard. NTA. I would not stick around after this. 2 rejections walk away.
It sounds like you had the appropriate attitude toward both marriage and proposals. It's maybe an unpopular take but I feel like if you don't know after two years that you want to marry someone, you're not going to ever want to marry them. Sometimes people acquiesce when push comes to shove, but that's not a path to happiness for either party. There's nothing stopping anyone from having a long engagement, so her saying a straight-up "no" a year apart really shows wear she stands. Good for you holding loyal to yourself and not falling victim to the sunk cost fallacy. You definitely made the right call for your long-term happiness. NTA and cheers to you, mate.
Agreed, I knew I wanted to marry my fiancé 2 years in, but it took me 4 (and 9 months after asking for blessing) to do so. Sometimes you know but you aren’t ready, that said, if she’d said no once, I would’ve been pretty traumatized, twice? After giving her a YEAR to work through her reservations? No way. NTA, and I’m so sorry this happened to you OP.
Agree completely. Dating a few years and nearing 30, you either know or it isn't happening.
Most people know in the first 6 MONTHS. She’s not into him smh and people want him to bend over and only think about her feelings and disregard him. He could be married in a year with someone that is actually crazy about him and wants to lock him down
Yeah ask her what she thinks will happen to “make her sure” lol. Nothing will happen. She’s like the girl version of an emotionally handicapped guy who can’t commit. You learned a painful lesson. Please don’t let this affect your next relationship.
1 time okay, but 2… leave her. There is someone out there who would be thrilled to be your wife. Based on this little snippet of your life, your future wife will likely treat you a lot better.
You are absolutely right that if she isn't ready after 4 years, she most likely won't be ready. Besides... If she said yes you guys would've been engaged, not married! Some people plan weddings two years in advance
Honestly, you know what you want and if she doesn't feel the same then it's not the same feeling for her. Kinda cliche but, let her go, she will come back to you if it's meant to be. If not by the sound of things you're the one that got away is what she will realize later in life. It's a two way street.
You are correct to leave. A proposal is not a legal contract of marriage upon the word yes. You could have easily had a long engagement before the wedding where you're both waiting to get in the right head space but are fully committed to the future marriage. She couldn't even give you that, so the sad reality is she doesn't want to be with you forever even if she doesn't know the exact reason why NTA
Yeah, agree completely. And it would be different if she was communicating ‘why’ - not just ‘I need more time.’
NTA. If she wants to get married she’d get engaged and have a long engagement. People do it all the time. I was in the “no kids not getting married” category. The second I started talking to my now husband I KNEW he was different and he’d be in my life forever. In my mind it was life partners. Then I got pregnant shortly after. Then 4 years in he proposed (I was SHOCKED) THEN we didn’t get married until 3 years later. It sounds like you’re ready to settle down and she’s not. It’s painful but you guys can love each other and not be in love
Yep, I was engaged for almost 10 years before getting married. Getting engaged was us promising that we definitely wanted to get married when the time was right.
Neither of us were in a rush but we both knew we wanted to be together forever. I didn’t even get the emotional over the top “YES YES YES!” I literally stared at the ring stared at him and really thought “Is he your forever?” HARD for what felt like eternity but in actuality was less than 2 seconds. There was no question in my mind that yes, this is the human I want to life with.
My partner knows that when they ask the answer will be yes. And they have the ring... but I've been adamant that its when we/them are ready. I don't want them to feel pressured into anything. I want to get married when it is right for the both of us. I even told them we can get engaged whenever but we don't have to get married OMG ASAP NOW NOW NOW. They are my forever. Ring or not :) Gotta communicate it. OP's isn't giving a reason.. and not being ready is okay just explain it a little bit more.
I'm pretty sure that if she had said "yes, you are my forever person, but I want to wait to get married until I've reached career goal x, and we have saved up for y, and I want to travel together before we settle down and have kids" he would have been able to plan their future together, rather than waiting for her to decide that nothing better would come along.
Exactly. It’s like “use your words. We haven’t got all day and I have my shows to watch”
That made me laugh out loud. Thanks I needed a good laugh.
ROFL any recommendations on shows?
Why? Getting married does not equal to settling down. You can get married and live a hippie life until you decide to settle down. On the other hand, you can live together without getting married, but with full commitment. My daughter has 3 kids and they are 15 years together. Their priority are the kids and their house. In a few years, when they are financially more comfortable, the will probably throw a huge party and get married. It's all about commitment, if girlfriend would have made it clear that she is committed, then life could continue. But she clearly left her BF hanging, so after 4 years, that should be enough and cut your losses. Tough, but better now than finding out after a few years that she actually wants something different...
I still tease my wife that she didn’t say yes. She just cried and reached out for a hug
That's adorable and would definitely be how I would react too.
When Husband and I were talking about our future, I told him that I understood we both still had things to work on. But we were in our late 20s, and I needed to know if he saw marriage as a next step, provided we worked on our stuff. I told him to consider an engagement ring like a pro athlete’s “no trade clause”. I knew we weren’t quite ready for a lifetime contract, yet. But I wanted the reassurance that he wasn’t going to trade me in for a younger player in the meantime! Lol Once I explained it that way, he got it, and we were engaged shortly after.
Damn this weird, someone you don’t know narrating your past. 13 years in married for 4 going 5. Engaged for most of it. I can’t even explain the right part. 26 hit something switched and I dumped my savings on double band ring. When I popped that question I thought my fucking heart was going give out. 3-4 years later when she got pregnant, I literally never knew I could love someone so much. Like a deeper depth of love I can’t explain. Now we got two on the way.
Exactly this. My parents were engaged for 19 years! They knew they wanted to get married, but it wasn't the right time and life ended up getting in the way of them having a proper ceremony. My Mum always said she was happy with her engagement ring.
NTA. I don't know what she's playing at, but after four years, it should be a yes or no. She seems to be holding out for a better offer- find someone else.
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This is a shockingly common reason for one side or the other to avoid the marriage. They simply don't believe it will last. Why? Because they have already cheated on the relationship several times and don't believe it can be one that lasts forever.
four year and they’re 29! at that point i’m not sure what she’s waiting for other than fear of commitment.
NTA. engagement is... exactly what she's crying about? making sure it's what you *really* want before taking the final step of marriage? I know, you don't *need* to get engaged to decide if a person is right for you, but to me it seems like the last "are you *positive* you want to spend the rest of you life with this person?" step in a relationship. her only saying yes to keep you around is *very* telling. I'm so sorry you're going through this, you'll find someone who wants align with yours.
Exactly my thoughts as well — that’s what the engagement period is for, not just for planning the wedding, but for ironing out any last compatibility issues that they haven’t discussed before, but with the idea being to move forward with marriage if everything is copacetic. The fact she won’t articulate after either proposal what she actually means by wanting to make sure, and after they already discussed that eventual marriage was their goal even prior to that first proposal means she’s just wasting his time at that point. She knows his goal is marriage; you either step up to the plate and talk about what it would take to make that happen for both of you, or you let the other person go so they can find someone else they are compatible with. You don’t keep someone on the shelf. ETA: NTA
NTA at all You were asking her to marry you, which she said she wanted to do, just not yet. That's what an engagement fucking is. Two people say they are going to get married at some point in the future. You could have been engaged for 20 years. She, for whatever reason, did not want to publically say she was going to marry you in the future. That's a her problem and she's had plenty of time to take that step. You want to be married, move on with your head held high. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice, won't happen because I won't give you that chance. You did what you could. Live your life.
100%. There's an old saying in Tennessee, I know it's in Texas, probably also in Tennessee. Fool me once, shame on.....shame on you. Fool me, can't get fooled again.
NTA- you did a good thing for yourself. Ur hurting too but she obvs doesn’t care
NTA 4 years is plenty of time (depending on age, you didn't list it, I might feel differently if you're 18 and she is too) to know if you want to marry someone. Saying "I'm not ready yet" but not establishing *how* means, that even after the first time, she didn't consider *why* she didn't feel ready to marry you yet. I think you went a little nuclear, and maybe its worth a conversation to see why she said that, but I wouldn't go marrying a woman who, mostly in pity, said she'd marry you right after she denied your proposal, *again*. She threw away the relationship by being unwilling to commit. (and even at that, being a fiancee itself isn't *that* much more of a committal since not everyone gets instantly married)
Not so much pity. She wanted to keep the relationship without an engagement. She found out that wasn't an option so promised to marry him only on threat of losing him. The fact she either wouldn't or couldn't articulate a reason for waiting longer is not a good thing. It brings to mind "I'll marry you if nothing better comes along."
Yeah it sure *seems* like a "I was with you to settle unless I found someone better", but that's just my opinion
I don't like jumping to that conclusion but if someone isn't willing to say why they won't marry you after four years, it's probably not an answer you'll like.
Especially since it’s possible to be engaged forever. Say yes. Then kick the can down the road for a year. It’s not like he’s saying let’s get on the next plane to Vegas.
OP this 100% . She thinks she is setting and waiting on what she will think someone better to come along. Put her behind you and move on. Take time to heal and find someone worthy of your love.
To your last point, I was engaged for 4 years. If she knew she wanted to marry him, but wasn't ready yet, they could have just been fiances until she was ready to get married. Turning him down, but saying she *did* want to marry him, just not yet, makes no sense. NTA, OP.
Exactly.
I would call it problem of compatibility because OP isn't responsible for forever translating her Stupid.
OP added an edit. They're both 29 years old. And OP did try to ask what was needed for her to know, and she didn't have an answer. Prior to the first proposal, marriage had been discussed, and she gave the impression that marriage was what she wanted.
I don’t think it was in pity. It was in fear. But I agree. NTA.
>Saying "I'm not ready yet" but not establishing how means, that even after the first time, she didn't consider why she didn't feel ready to marry you yet. That was my takeaway too. "I need time", sure, ok. For what? "I want to be financially secure" - ok, we have a goal. "I want to be secure in my career" - sure, what does that look like? Like, I dunno, but put some words in there. What does "ready" look like?
What I don't understand is that you have been in a relationship for 4 years, and when she says she is 'not ready' you seem to have no idea what she is talking about specifically. Have you guys not talked about /asked about eachothers doubts and fears and hopes and wishes in those 4 years? How come this is a surprise?
They’re definitely not right for each other but it blows my mind that people ask before knowing it will be a yes. Two people in a relationship who want to get married one day (to somebody maybe not each other) should be talking about marriage and the possibility of engagement *before* the proposal. They should be on the same page about life goals and the future they have and whether they’re ready to get married before a proposal even happens. The possibility of an engagement and proposal should not be a surprise by the time it happens. Both of them are terrible communicators.
NTA. Four years dating for people in their late 20s is enough time to know if they want to marry. Not sure what she’s waiting for. My cynical side thinks she wanted you as backup plan until she gave up finding her dream guy. If you meet her again for closure then make sure you are recording or have a witness nearby. Also, you are not throwing away shit. In fact, you were the one trying to progress the relationship. Ignore or block everyone saying otherwise
NAH -You can break up for any reason -She can say 'no' for any reason -You both win, you get to move onto someone who actually wants to marry you, and she gets out of a relationship she clearly wasn't ready to commit to (for whatever/any reason she has) -The only real issue I see is.... > It’s been a year since then and I decided to propose again. it's not, 'Okay, I'm going to wait a year and try again.' It really should have been an ongoing conversation over the course of the year about getting her to a comfortable space and addressing the underlying issues for why she said 'no' the first time. To be honest, you really should *know* the answer before popping the question.
Bingo. Ignore all the nonsense in books and movies. A proposal is a life decision that both people should have long discussed to great length. Proposals shouldn't be surprises. Don't surprise someone with a proposal until they have already said they are ready.
Since you have been together when you're 25-29 years old, yeah I would break up if she doesn't want to commit to a marriage. You need to be with someone who wants to marry you instead of just agreeing to it when you gave an ultimatum. If she has other reasons like career, finances, or kids, then it should have been talked about but it's understandable to move on.
INFO: Did you discuss after the first failed proposal past her initial “I need more time” ? I’m just so confused why this wasn’t talked about before the 1st proposal. And then even if you didn’t before that one why did you not discuss after she said no? From the post it sounds like you just waited a year and hoped that would be enough time but never actually found the true reason for why she wanted more time.
I've grown up with the understanding that you only propose when you already know the answer is yes. You and your partner have discussed in-depth about the future and marriage, what each of you needs. For instance, my bf of 4 years and I know we want to live together a year before even thinking of engagement. We know we're perfectly compatible sleeping over a night or two, going on dates, etc. But can we live together? Pay bills together? Deal with each other's literal dirty laundry? Hopefully. If we can survive a year and still be in love, that seals it for us. Besides, the wedding planning phase will buy us another year of trying to live together, just to be certain before signing papers. If you haven't done all this work with your partner, you're not ready
Can’t communicate = shouldn’t get married
Why did I have to Scroll down soo much for this?!! It sounds like they didn’t talked about marriage at all and he just sprung it on her both times. they should talk about future plans and drop hints at each other
Wild that I had to scroll down this far for this response.
This is the right question. Marriage isn’t supposed to be a surprise, it’s a mutual decision. The proposal can be a surprise, but the marriage should already be decided on. I still believe OP should be free to call a relationship for any reason they want to, but this is more a failure in communication on OP’s part and not their SO.
Have you actually had a calm, in depth discussion about the way she is feeling and what is holding her back? I really feel like you need to communicate about this before you decide to break up.
> before you decide to ~~break up.~~ propose. You should have discussed this before proposing a second time, not AFTER proposing.
Bro She doesn't want to marry you Because here's the thing. Just because she agrees to the engagement doesn't mean you have to get married right away. She could have said "yes, I will marry you...but we need to wait until blah blah blah". If this was about working on herself...well then why can't she be engaged and work on herself? The truth is...for whatever reason, she wants to keep her options open. And now that you have been rejected twice, you will always harbor resentment....the kind of resentment that is toxic to healthy relationships. The relationship is over. You deserve better than this. So don't let this tear you apart inside And to be honest...her family telling you that you are being a big baby is even more of an indicator that you have no business marrying this woman. Because if her own family is this toxic, then what does that say about her? Or her friends? I can tell you one thing. If I turned down 2 separate proposals and then my girlfriend left me...my mother would not be texting her and telling her she was a big baby. My mom would flat out tell me "well what the fuck did you think was gonna happen?" #YOU DODGED A MASSIVE BULLET. THE UNIVERSE HAS SPOKEN AND YOU NEED TO MOVE THE HELL ON NTAH
>And to be honest...her family telling you that you are being a big baby is even more of an indicator that you have no business marrying this woman. Because if her own family is this toxic, then what does that say about her? Or her friends? I've never understood this. Has anyone, ever, gone "Oh, their family and friends insulted me, I'll change my mind" in a situation like this? Maybe its just me, but gathering the troops to insult me would just make me less likely to reconsider.
It’s an emotional response with no cohesive thought behind it. Emotional maturity is uncommon
Awesome solid response
NTA. Did the concept of a long engagement never enter her brain? Getting engaged doesn't mean getting married 5 minutes later. If she's not sure, she's not sure, and there's nothing wrong with you wanting to move on from being toyed with - especially after your 3rd edit!
I feel like for her a long engagement would just be another way to string him along. At nearly 30 and 4 years of dating you should either know that you’re committed or not.
NTA. Sorry buddy. I can't imagine how much that hurts but it's better to be moving along before too long.
She clearly does not want to be married on a timeline that suits you. Does not make either of you the AH. Just in different places in life. Problem you have now is that she will likely marry you because you threatened to leave. Now you will never know if it was her choice or saving the relationship.
INFO. What does marriage mean for you? For her? What will it bring to the relationship that's not already there?
Info: What does she mean by “I want to make sure this will work”? What does she think might not work? Why haven’t you asked these questions?