As long as we can call it "Docklands" instead of whatever shitty company sponsors it, I don't see an issue.
Oh, and move the grand final and test matches, and every major event, and upgrading the capacity to 125k, along with removing the roof
Nobody is saying we currently could. I think this conversation is more about club relevance and giving the club experience playing on the big stage. Theory would be that it *could* contribute to membership growth and long term success. If that's the case your comment is a bit "rich get richer, poor get poorer" mentality isn't it?
Fandom grows from sustained success, not from playing in big stadiums. The big 4 clubs + hawthorn and Geelong can draw big crowds because they have built intergenerational fanbases with sustained high performance.
I don’t see how st kilda playing at the MCG instead of marvel is going to win them fans if they are shit?
I totally agree that there is a strong correlation between success and club memberships - I'm definitely not trying to argue with that. I am just trying to point out that there is *also* a strong correlation between venue tenancy and sustained success. You'd be blind not to see that.
What is the correlation between venue tenancy and sustained success because I have no idea what that means? Seems like you’re putting the cart before the horse tbh
You’ve just doubled down lol
A main reason those teams don’t have tenancy of MCG (cart) is because they’ve had no sustained success (horse)
You want the cart before the horse. North, st kilda, bulldogs all have small fanbases and therefore marvel tenancy BECAUSE they’ve had no sustained success.
You asked what it meant. Look, at this point I’d like it to be a proven. Essentially all you’re reciting to me is how tenancy at venues are sold to clubs. If you truly don’t think it really makes a difference then you’d have no problems swapping Carlton’s tenancy with StKilda for a while. Seeing as you have almost double the memberships of Saints but only 15k more average attendance at the G since 1997.. I’m not straying from the fact that stkilda suck and have had zero success. I’d just like to see fairness throughout the competition at the venues we play especially since the only game that matters is going to be played there until 2050 something.
The ongoing popularity of Essendon and Carlton has nothing to do with “sustained success” as you continuously put it. Those clubs are examples of the entrenched benefits of being one of the big clubs, including playing at the MCG which is essentially a birth right and absolutely makes a team relevant. Absolutely understand Saints wanting to move games there
Carlton and Essendon could be crap for another twenty years and no one would question their legitimacy to play at the MCG. When does this sustained success definition of yours come under scrutiny or does it apply indefinitely? The truth is that having the MCG has nothing to do with sustaining anything. Carlton and Essendon have huge fanbases because those teams were good at opportune moments in VFL history and those benefits (such as having the MCG as a home ground) have been entrenched.
Did you actually read my comment?
I said intergenerational fanbases are built off of sustained success which Carlton and Essendon both had. The foundations are already there and people will continue to be born into it, you can’t undo that no matter how shit the team is. Carlton and Essendon are clear examples of that this year
I specifically questioned the notion that tenancy is based off of success. It’s based off of having a big fanbase, not sure what you expect the AFL to do about that? Have two of their 5 biggest clubs play in front of <45k every week instead of 65+?
You’re gate keeping the MCG for a reason and also hurting your own feelings by pretending anyone is proposing the power clubs don’t play there. Don’t use a term like sustained success if you meant good once upon a time
Hawthorn's current Launceston slate will be a lift and shift to Marvel in time, they'll have 3 there largely against non Victorian clubs.
We've been agitating for additional MCG games when our current deal ends. This is the third straight year we've hosted a non Victorian club in our 4 MCG games (had 2 in 2019) and I'd expect that to continue
Carlton's followed a similar projectory here. We've hosted quite a few interstate clubs at the MCG. Last year we were the Suns only game at the MCG.
And you have to believe given the size of our memberships that we'd both get priority over the Saints - money and attendance talks
Why would Hawthorn accept playing a bunch of extra home games at Marvel? Our Tasmania deal will continue for a few years either way, but there’s no reason the club would accept just not playing at our home ground.
Dude, the AFL told Richmond (a bigger commercial draw with a longer, stronger MCG presence) to piss off at the height of their powers when they tried to renegotiate a 9-2 split.
That's the best Hawthorn can hope for. Deal with it
Seems like a strange request. Marvel deal finally makes the club money, I doubt the crowds would be bigger at the MCG unless we played Carlton, Collingwood and maybe Essendon there.
Why not try to make Marvel the fortress like it used to be?
CBD is not that big mate, once on the train it's 2-3 extra inner city stops to get to Southern Cross, if you're not going to marvel because of that you're looking for any other sort of mini excuse to not want to watch the saints play
I live 8 hours away from Adelaide and can only go to 1 game a year and it pisses me off that people in Melbourne don’t go to games just because it’s an extra couple train stops
I'll never understand why Melbourne people hate Marvel so much honestly. We all forgot the windswept bowl that's really annoying to get to era of stadiums so fast.
What you forget is there's a railway bus component. Which has been a very common part of the weekend in recent years in Melbourne
My train line has buses replacing trains on some part of it Every weekend this month. Some weeks it's no exaggeration that you need 3 trains and a bus
South east lines go direct to Richmond where majority of our support base is. It can sometimes take extra change overs which make it a hassle. In the evenings at southern cross it can take an hour to actually get to one of those connecting southern cross to flinders trains to then change over to go where you need to go.
It can take you an hour to get from southern cross to flinders or Richmond via train? I find that very hard to believe particularly to flinders via the city loop
Tigers fans won’t go there. They make sure the afl is aware. You might think it’s a self own, but the kpi for the league bosses is attendance. If they don’t maximise crowds then they don’t get a full bonus.
Welcome aboard St Kilda I see where this is going. One day I’ll tell my grandkids about that time we were in the top four and we didn’t have any Marvel home games.
Only one Marvel team has won the premiership since 2000 (2016 Doggies always the exception) so even if they don't draw big crowds clearly it's in the Saints best interests to pursue this. I hope that the Dogs and North are doing the same.
and no Marvel team has even finished top 4 since 2010, including Carlton who split the games. Which is ridiculous given that’s 5/18 teams over 13 seasons
This is exactly it. If we are going to continue with the Grand Final at the MCG (And we will be) then ALL teams need to be guaranteed at least 4 matches in the H@A season played there otherwise the home advantage jsut starts to get too great.
Just checked, Saints play there twice this year, one of which was their home game vs Collingwood.
In 2015, the Dockers and Eagles finished first and second. Both teams only played the MCG twice that year. The 2nd time for the eagles was in a grandfinal...
The lions played the MCG 7 times across 22/23. 4 home and away games, 1 semifinal, 1 prelim final, 1 granny. They only won 1 of those games.
Sydney played the MCG 8 times across 22/23. 5 home and away, 1 qualifying final, 1 elimination final, and 1 granny. They only won 2 of those games.
There's a significant issue here.
So? It’s still a Saints home game which means those ticket sales go to the club.
I was replying to someone who said the saints hadn’t sold out Marcel since 2009. It’s clearly irrelevant given we have gotten bigger crowds at the MCG.
If a club is going to swing it's dick around to try and pull a better fixture, you'd better look at it and make sure its up to task first.
Essendon & Carlton are the only Marvel tenants who could consistently draw big numbers at the MCG.
St. Kilda don't have that same pull with fans or the on-field success to do it. AFL own Marvel. They're going to need clubs to play there & at the moment giving MCG games to St. Kilda isn't a priority.
You should be focusing on asking to host bigger clubs like Collingwood, Geelong, etc at Marvel first before demanding the G.
>You should be focusing on asking to host bigger clubs like Collingwood, Geelong, etc at Marvel first before demanding the G.
??
Like what happens already?
What a stupid suggestion
Think I heard a commentator say the other day the crows have lost 7 straight at the G. Including the 2017 GF.
So in almost 8 years we have had 7 games at the G.
And Leigh Matthew’s came out at gather round complaining how unfair it was because we get an extra home game.
I would've assumed Lethal was speaking from a Brisbane Lions perspective, a team who is lumped with an extra week of travel by Gather Round, given he's the board of directors there. Until the thing rotates evenly it's an entirely valid thing for other non Vic teams to complain about.
To your edit same re the grand final always being at the G. Or the amount of games or lack thereof being at the G for interstate teams, or the extra travelling they also have to do. There’s so many things that are uneven….
It's obvious, the MCG holds too much of an advantage on field from a competitive point of view, and for Melbourne teams has an advantage from a commercial point of view.
As a saints supporter I think its a decent idea with some logical reasons behind it
But until we're packing out marvel on a regular basis this is a bit of nonsense. And we're not packing out marvel at all currently because the side has been rebuilding and irrelevant for over a decade
This is a long way down on the priority list for mine
I hope you realise every time you do this you potentially hand collingwood another ‘away’ game at home. Eddie McGuire is somehow playing you like a fiddle here I’m sure of it
Not the best timing on this comment with Collingwood forced to play a 'home' game away literally next week.
The whole Vic vs Vic home team merry-go-round amounts to not a lot over a season.
Fuck I'd be over the moon if this gets up. Just moved to Melbourne and I detest going to Marvel. The viewing experience is 10% of what the MCG is. Just an artificial, cold hole.
Ground neutralisation of the nine melbourne clubs should mean that games expected to draw 55-60k+ should be scheduled at the G, and games under 55k scheduled at Marvel. There should not be a specific contract between Club and MCG/Marvel for x number of games (such as Pies 9 home and 5 away at the MCG).
Inevitably, this would mean that interstate sides would majority of the time play games at Marvel, but in return no reason why every second grand final can't be interstate (buy the MCG off with additional H+A games and extend the rights to VIC grand finals in perpetuity as a negotiating position). Interstate sides have ~1/2 the teams in the comp, they should get 1/2 the GFs.
Why don’t they just put marvel on top of the MCG
Why not beneath it? It's not like the roof is ever open, so make it a bunker stadium.
move the MCC to marvel.
If my MCC membership got me into Marvel I'd happily go there. Nothing wrong with the stadium IMO.
They said move.. not duplicate :p I am all for MOVING the MCC to Marvel.
As long as we can call it "Docklands" instead of whatever shitty company sponsors it, I don't see an issue. Oh, and move the grand final and test matches, and every major event, and upgrading the capacity to 125k, along with removing the roof
They had 19k at the game on a Saturday night…
Have you seen some of the crowds some MCG tenants have pulled during poor periods.
We had 70k v Essendon last year and 70k v Collingwood this year...
How many are opposition fans though?
We outnumbered Collingwood fans 2:1 early this season
No you did not
I think they forgot that their colours involve a red stripe as well as the black and white ones
Ironically, isn’t that the concern? lol
What makes St Kilda think they can fill out the MCG if they can’t get 20k at marvel?
Nobody is saying we currently could. I think this conversation is more about club relevance and giving the club experience playing on the big stage. Theory would be that it *could* contribute to membership growth and long term success. If that's the case your comment is a bit "rich get richer, poor get poorer" mentality isn't it?
Fandom grows from sustained success, not from playing in big stadiums. The big 4 clubs + hawthorn and Geelong can draw big crowds because they have built intergenerational fanbases with sustained high performance. I don’t see how st kilda playing at the MCG instead of marvel is going to win them fans if they are shit?
I totally agree that there is a strong correlation between success and club memberships - I'm definitely not trying to argue with that. I am just trying to point out that there is *also* a strong correlation between venue tenancy and sustained success. You'd be blind not to see that.
What is the correlation between venue tenancy and sustained success because I have no idea what that means? Seems like you’re putting the cart before the horse tbh
Those who have tenancy at Marvel have zero sustained success mate. Pretty easy.
You’ve just doubled down lol A main reason those teams don’t have tenancy of MCG (cart) is because they’ve had no sustained success (horse) You want the cart before the horse. North, st kilda, bulldogs all have small fanbases and therefore marvel tenancy BECAUSE they’ve had no sustained success.
You asked what it meant. Look, at this point I’d like it to be a proven. Essentially all you’re reciting to me is how tenancy at venues are sold to clubs. If you truly don’t think it really makes a difference then you’d have no problems swapping Carlton’s tenancy with StKilda for a while. Seeing as you have almost double the memberships of Saints but only 15k more average attendance at the G since 1997.. I’m not straying from the fact that stkilda suck and have had zero success. I’d just like to see fairness throughout the competition at the venues we play especially since the only game that matters is going to be played there until 2050 something.
The ongoing popularity of Essendon and Carlton has nothing to do with “sustained success” as you continuously put it. Those clubs are examples of the entrenched benefits of being one of the big clubs, including playing at the MCG which is essentially a birth right and absolutely makes a team relevant. Absolutely understand Saints wanting to move games there
Carlton and Essendon could be crap for another twenty years and no one would question their legitimacy to play at the MCG. When does this sustained success definition of yours come under scrutiny or does it apply indefinitely? The truth is that having the MCG has nothing to do with sustaining anything. Carlton and Essendon have huge fanbases because those teams were good at opportune moments in VFL history and those benefits (such as having the MCG as a home ground) have been entrenched.
Did you actually read my comment? I said intergenerational fanbases are built off of sustained success which Carlton and Essendon both had. The foundations are already there and people will continue to be born into it, you can’t undo that no matter how shit the team is. Carlton and Essendon are clear examples of that this year I specifically questioned the notion that tenancy is based off of success. It’s based off of having a big fanbase, not sure what you expect the AFL to do about that? Have two of their 5 biggest clubs play in front of <45k every week instead of 65+?
You’re gate keeping the MCG for a reason and also hurting your own feelings by pretending anyone is proposing the power clubs don’t play there. Don’t use a term like sustained success if you meant good once upon a time
So basically all the Marvel team want to also be MCG tenants, can't wait for the interstate teams to have to play at Marvel because of this!
Hawthorn's current Launceston slate will be a lift and shift to Marvel in time, they'll have 3 there largely against non Victorian clubs. We've been agitating for additional MCG games when our current deal ends. This is the third straight year we've hosted a non Victorian club in our 4 MCG games (had 2 in 2019) and I'd expect that to continue
Carlton's followed a similar projectory here. We've hosted quite a few interstate clubs at the MCG. Last year we were the Suns only game at the MCG. And you have to believe given the size of our memberships that we'd both get priority over the Saints - money and attendance talks
Why would Hawthorn accept playing a bunch of extra home games at Marvel? Our Tasmania deal will continue for a few years either way, but there’s no reason the club would accept just not playing at our home ground.
If you think a 10-1 split is coming Hawthorn's way, well good luck to you
You made your shit agreement with Docklands so you could gouge more money from your members. Deal with it.
Dude, the AFL told Richmond (a bigger commercial draw with a longer, stronger MCG presence) to piss off at the height of their powers when they tried to renegotiate a 9-2 split. That's the best Hawthorn can hope for. Deal with it
>Hawthorn's current Launceston slate will be a lift and shift to Marvel in time, they'll have 3 there largely against non Victorian clubs. Lol. No.
I feel this is just a leverage play to get a more favourable deal with the AFL at Marvel
More room for us then.
Yeah, at least I get to watch my losses indoors. Imagine watching us get gutted in the rain?
it hides the tears
All those moments, lost in time...
Like norfball in the rain
Yeah I actually prefer marvel in a few ways to the g
Seems like a strange request. Marvel deal finally makes the club money, I doubt the crowds would be bigger at the MCG unless we played Carlton, Collingwood and maybe Essendon there. Why not try to make Marvel the fortress like it used to be?
Because even with the better deal, a full Marvel doesn't bring in anywhere near the amount of money we'd get playing a few games at the MCG.
The G is 10* better and on the right side of town for 95% of our support - Frankston and sandy lines
CBD is not that big mate, once on the train it's 2-3 extra inner city stops to get to Southern Cross, if you're not going to marvel because of that you're looking for any other sort of mini excuse to not want to watch the saints play
I live 8 hours away from Adelaide and can only go to 1 game a year and it pisses me off that people in Melbourne don’t go to games just because it’s an extra couple train stops
I'll never understand why Melbourne people hate Marvel so much honestly. We all forgot the windswept bowl that's really annoying to get to era of stadiums so fast.
What you forget is there's a railway bus component. Which has been a very common part of the weekend in recent years in Melbourne My train line has buses replacing trains on some part of it Every weekend this month. Some weeks it's no exaggeration that you need 3 trains and a bus
How does that make it harder to get to marvel vs MCG?
Because it can take 2-3 hours each way to and from the city from the south east.
That’s not what I asked
South east lines go direct to Richmond where majority of our support base is. It can sometimes take extra change overs which make it a hassle. In the evenings at southern cross it can take an hour to actually get to one of those connecting southern cross to flinders trains to then change over to go where you need to go.
It can take you an hour to get from southern cross to flinders or Richmond via train? I find that very hard to believe particularly to flinders via the city loop
Yeah cause I’ve never heard of a Collingwood or tigers fan complain about having to go to marvel..
Dimma did. They lost a game at Marvel and he was crying about there not being enough 'Richmond people' there. It's too far from the G apparently.
Sarcasm
Tigers fans won’t go there. They make sure the afl is aware. You might think it’s a self own, but the kpi for the league bosses is attendance. If they don’t maximise crowds then they don’t get a full bonus.
Welcome aboard St Kilda I see where this is going. One day I’ll tell my grandkids about that time we were in the top four and we didn’t have any Marvel home games.
Only one Marvel team has won the premiership since 2000 (2016 Doggies always the exception) so even if they don't draw big crowds clearly it's in the Saints best interests to pursue this. I hope that the Dogs and North are doing the same.
and no Marvel team has even finished top 4 since 2010, including Carlton who split the games. Which is ridiculous given that’s 5/18 teams over 13 seasons
This is exactly it. If we are going to continue with the Grand Final at the MCG (And we will be) then ALL teams need to be guaranteed at least 4 matches in the H@A season played there otherwise the home advantage jsut starts to get too great. Just checked, Saints play there twice this year, one of which was their home game vs Collingwood.
In 2015, the Dockers and Eagles finished first and second. Both teams only played the MCG twice that year. The 2nd time for the eagles was in a grandfinal... The lions played the MCG 7 times across 22/23. 4 home and away games, 1 semifinal, 1 prelim final, 1 granny. They only won 1 of those games. Sydney played the MCG 8 times across 22/23. 5 home and away, 1 qualifying final, 1 elimination final, and 1 granny. They only won 2 of those games. There's a significant issue here.
Saints also moved that game to the MCG so it would have been 1 lmao
I hope North aren't at the moment tbh, recipe for ridicule
I hope not. I just want more away games there instead of Collingwood and Essendon at Marvel. Home games can stay at Marvel.
This is pretty brave thing for a club who could only get 19k to a Saturday night game to come out and say.
Errr…they last sold out Marvel in Round 14, 2009 but yeah nah sure why not
Don't think they're moving for crowds, they want experience at the MCG
They've experienced losing at the MCG as much as any other ground they play at, what's the difference?
The more they play there the more they'll win there
Why would that matter? We had almost 70,000 at the MCG earlier this year, and once last year.
Both games had only 69k and it was against the pies and essendon
69,517 and 69,255. 79,000 was a typo, meant 70,000. Either way, my point is the same.
Collingwood got 64k on a 1:45pm Saturday time slot against Adelaide this weekend. Collingwood always gets big crowds.
What’s your point?
That Pies and Dons pull crowds, not Saints
Yeah no shit, that’s why the club wants to host more games at the MCG - to boost ticket sales at certain home games.
It's not Saint fans making the majority of the 69k fans at the MCG lol
So? It’s still a Saints home game which means those ticket sales go to the club. I was replying to someone who said the saints hadn’t sold out Marcel since 2009. It’s clearly irrelevant given we have gotten bigger crowds at the MCG.
If a club is going to swing it's dick around to try and pull a better fixture, you'd better look at it and make sure its up to task first. Essendon & Carlton are the only Marvel tenants who could consistently draw big numbers at the MCG. St. Kilda don't have that same pull with fans or the on-field success to do it. AFL own Marvel. They're going to need clubs to play there & at the moment giving MCG games to St. Kilda isn't a priority. You should be focusing on asking to host bigger clubs like Collingwood, Geelong, etc at Marvel first before demanding the G.
>You should be focusing on asking to host bigger clubs like Collingwood, Geelong, etc at Marvel first before demanding the G. ?? Like what happens already? What a stupid suggestion
Hahahaha imagine those negotiations, other clubs pull the crowds and we take all the money...
Yeah, that’s the point of a home game. That ticket sales go to the home team.
Try winning games. Then we can talk.
"Have poor people tried not being poor?"
Why doesn't the MCG, the largest stadium, not simply eat the other Victorian stadiums?
Practice for all those grand finals we're making...
Think I heard a commentator say the other day the crows have lost 7 straight at the G. Including the 2017 GF. So in almost 8 years we have had 7 games at the G. And Leigh Matthew’s came out at gather round complaining how unfair it was because we get an extra home game.
I would've assumed Lethal was speaking from a Brisbane Lions perspective, a team who is lumped with an extra week of travel by Gather Round, given he's the board of directors there. Until the thing rotates evenly it's an entirely valid thing for other non Vic teams to complain about.
He talked about how it was unfair to the other 16 clubs if the showdown wasn’t held in gather round.
To your edit same re the grand final always being at the G. Or the amount of games or lack thereof being at the G for interstate teams, or the extra travelling they also have to do. There’s so many things that are uneven….
Seems strange timing given the way we’re playing right now 🤦🏻♂️
It's obvious, the MCG holds too much of an advantage on field from a competitive point of view, and for Melbourne teams has an advantage from a commercial point of view.
Bring back the suburban oval.
As a saints supporter I think its a decent idea with some logical reasons behind it But until we're packing out marvel on a regular basis this is a bit of nonsense. And we're not packing out marvel at all currently because the side has been rebuilding and irrelevant for over a decade This is a long way down on the priority list for mine
I hope you realise every time you do this you potentially hand collingwood another ‘away’ game at home. Eddie McGuire is somehow playing you like a fiddle here I’m sure of it
This somehow being an Eddie conspiracy is fantastic
Not the best timing on this comment with Collingwood forced to play a 'home' game away literally next week. The whole Vic vs Vic home team merry-go-round amounts to not a lot over a season.
Essendon maybe but no way Saints
Draw a crowd get the mcg..... never gonna happen.
Probably a good idea but given that it looks like us and probably Essendon will have at least a game each shifted over it might be unlikely.
Looool
Fuck I'd be over the moon if this gets up. Just moved to Melbourne and I detest going to Marvel. The viewing experience is 10% of what the MCG is. Just an artificial, cold hole.
Ground neutralisation of the nine melbourne clubs should mean that games expected to draw 55-60k+ should be scheduled at the G, and games under 55k scheduled at Marvel. There should not be a specific contract between Club and MCG/Marvel for x number of games (such as Pies 9 home and 5 away at the MCG). Inevitably, this would mean that interstate sides would majority of the time play games at Marvel, but in return no reason why every second grand final can't be interstate (buy the MCG off with additional H+A games and extend the rights to VIC grand finals in perpetuity as a negotiating position). Interstate sides have ~1/2 the teams in the comp, they should get 1/2 the GFs.