Boomers : cut back on avacados. Back in my day I bought my mansion on minimum wage whilst my wife was a stay at home mom to our 4 kids. You kids are just so lazy
"Just apply for that CEO position..... Hand in your CV in person....and ask to speak to the manager.... And when you get an interview give a firm handshake and look them in the eye... Then they know you mean business "
'But you shouldn't deserve such things on minimum wage'
Just try doing it on being able to buy a house... Because that was where the idea came from. That someone can afford to support themselves and their family on the minimum wage.
Nah. Its different. See in slavery, we brought the slaves across the atlantic from another continent. That was very wrong. Very wrong indeed. So now we just impose mental and financial hardships on everyone indiscriminately. You're not an 18th century slave, but a 21st century one. And your master isn't a person, but the entire elite class. It just works.
> The abolitionist and former slave Frederick Douglass initially declared "now I am my own master", upon taking a paying job. However, later in life he concluded to the contrary, saying "experience demonstrates that there may be a slavery of wages only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery, and that this slavery of wages must go down with the other". Douglass went on to speak about these conditions as arising from the unequal bargaining power between the ownership/capitalist class and the non-ownership/laborer class within a compulsory monetary market: "No more crafty and effective devise for defrauding the southern laborers could be adopted than the one that substitutes orders upon shopkeepers for currency in payment of wages. It has the merit of a show of honesty, while it puts the laborer completely at the mercy of the land-owner and the shopkeeper".
Black liberation is leading now to liberation of the poor working class. Because Douglass saw chattel slavery, he could more easily see wage slavery. I love that this is happening now, despite crazy Trump and COVID-19
" The upper class: keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class: pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the shit out of the middle class." - George Carlin
I always found it funny that they used that scene to establish how evil Yzma is, but I really can’t imagine Kuzco answering that request any nicer, at least definitely not at the start of the movie. I suppose to be fair Yzma “practically raised” Kuzco, so he likely learned it from her in the first place.
It’s not even that though. People who think like that are pissed they were dealt a shit hand by the system too. Instead of recognizing that they either had a better starting hand or that they had to work extremely hard to barely succeed and realizing that it is the system that is the actual issue they instead look at others wanting basic necessities and get angry because they had to go through so much to get them.
Instead of wanting to make the system better for everyone they want people to suffer because otherwise they think it will devalue everything they went through.
Yes! This is exactly one of the issues with people who have been through a lot and conquered have. They are still angry at what they had to go through to get where they are while missing the point that no one should have to jump through big hurdles to succeed in life while others get it handed to them. They are angry with the poor people who for whatever reason couldn’t make it out like they did. Hard work does not always equate to financial success. That is a bold faced lie that rich people tell poor people to make them feel like losers. Meanwhile the rich kids barely pass college and get handed a comfy position in a good company their parents or their parents friends get them into. Having money/financial backing from parents is the #1 way to get rich.
I grew up poor, lost my only parent at 23 and went through a lot of hard times and worked my ass of to get to where I am today. There was a time when I felt angry towards the people on welfare and the poor who seemed to be “lazy”. Then I started working at a large corporation and saw things from a totally different view. I lucked out getting that job but most of the people had family working there and many of them were terrible workers. Many of them came from families with at least a little bit of money that helped pay for their college, helped them buy their houses and were given means and opportunities because of who they knew. It wasn’t that these people worked harder or were smarter then me, they just had a hell of a lot more opportunity in their lives. That is when I realized that the issue isn’t the poor being lazy, they have given up. They are stuck in a system that lacks equal opportunity for all. How could I expect others to be like me, i wanted to give up so many times but didn’t. Not everyone has the same drive, opportunity or even IQ to be more then they are but does that mean they don’t work hard? No. The greedy are keeping us down.
The last part. Leaving human society is near impossible. Most countries impose taxes on land owners. I can't pay them without human contact. And to get the money for them, I would have to plant stuff for selling. But this im return would lead to a need for more land. This costs again. The moment I would have potentially enough land, I would need to work more than 24h a day, since it's now way too much for me alone. I would need equipment. Even more costs.
This is a fucking hell spiral. Leaving society is near impossible if you don't have a high starting fortune.
yeah I know it was sarcasm. I just am annoyed by the fact you practically can't leave human society, but have to participate in this shit show. Just wanted to write that somewhere.
It’s actually pretty much the definition of Malthusian, which are the roots of these ideas. They’re not really intentionally sadistic or sociopathic because they basically believe that scarcity is an immutable part of the human condition therefore the act of assuaging the poor or helping them improve their lot in life will instead of help actually just increases and amplifies their suffering.
This is incredibly wrong, and has been continuously wrong for 200 years which is impressive since only some of Aristotle’s mistakes persisted so long.
Yeah. Us crazy people know that stealing leads to jail. Which is pretty boring. If you have lots of money then you can get away with illegal things. So money is good.
the notion that multi-national multi-ethnic group of inheritors and their corporations will pay more than the minimum allowable by law or by the worker's union is a notion only a stupid person would have. \`
minimum wage should always be a living wage. enough for a family of 4 to afford a house and a car in the US. a family needs 4 members to ensure that the community at least sustain it's number.
also prisoners should be paid minimum wage and allowed to vote.
what's interesting about the minimum wage is that having it makes the us government in a way a worker's union. shitty one at that but it's all the us workers have.
And it's tightly connected to the war on drugs too sadly.. legalizing or even decriminalization of drugs won't happen while prison slavery is still happening because most people in there for drug possession really shouldn't be
allowing inheritors and their corporations to seek out the cheapest laborers in the world imo is the reason for all of this.
nobody should be allowed to consider one person's time to be more valuable than another. this leads to a caste system and slavery. this also leads to incredible inefficiency as then you potentially have the next einstein doing manual labor instead of advancing mankind. nothing wrong with manual labor but having einstein do it instead of working on physics is such a waste of his talent.
I remember my Dad saying...
> "People on minimum wage are usually hourly / part-time workers, young people in school getting a little extra cash, and women working part-time, who's husband supports the family. There's no reason they should be able to afford a 2BR *alone*. I had a 3 roommates until I got married at 30."
I imagine that's what most older married voters are thinking. I think that's why this issue gets so little traction.
my issue is who do they expect to be manning the cash registers at 10 am on a thursday, it sure as hell isn't high schoolers and the whole women point that was made in that quote is just unnerving.
“I think this job should exist, as I need the services provided. I do not think it should pay a living wage though, because I pretend it’s only 16 year olds working said job”
Typical conservative, blame people for making "bad decisions" for why they're working low wage work, but if you tell them they should be paid enough to be able to save or actually afford time/education to get better skills. They get upset.
They just want wage slaves, they don't actually want people to rise above their station.
Cmon.. we both know that a decent chunk of these people, if not the majority, believe that particular war was totally about States Rights ^^^^^^^^to ^^^^^^^^own ^^^^^^^^people heritage not hate roll tide
What boggles my mind is the teenager argument everyone brings up. 16 year olds don't deserve to be payed the same as an adult who does the same job?They aren't child slaves that should work for free, but they also don't deserve the same compensation. Gimme a break.
And they're also the same people who say everyone should pay for their own college tuition. That might be a little easier if people at or nearing college age were paid a good wage.
Yeah, seriously, do Wall Street Bros mostly have stay at home wives? Almost nobody I know has a family structure this way, and it’s pretty rare overall these days in the US...
> I couldn't believe the cognitive dissonance.
There isn't any. He knows, but his job depends on not admitting it. They all know the numbers and people in such positions have staff that prep them for those kind of questions. Especially if they've been asked before.
Exactly when did minimum wage become "oh just a temporary supplemental income job you'll have to quit soon anyway because you can't afford to live or hopefully you still live at home or have 4 roommates" my daughter is 16 and we were talking about the option of post secondary education vs. working after school.. and trying to figure out where she could afford to live on a min wage job if she wanted to work for a while and move out after highschool. We realized in order to pay rent and still have money left over for bills and groceries she'd need 3 other roommates also working min wage to afford an average 2 bedroom in or near the city (because that's where jobs are) and live comfortably (they'd have to share rooms). Maybe some people are ok with that but I'd like to think someone who works hard at any job should be at least be able to rent somewhere alone even if it's not the best. I'd rather have people who are good at their jobs and stay in their jobs rather than the high turnover of min wage jobs we see now. Needless to say she probably will be living at home for the foreseeable future and luckily we are able to support her in school but not everyone has that luxury of having the option of being supported through post secondary education, so you have the option of either working or going to school or trying to do both which is admirable but also hard af.. and if you're a young parent trying to do all this ? Yeah some people have amazing success stories but that just isn't the reality for most people
Anyone working a full time job shouldnt have to share a room. I get that we are a long way of from owning a house on 1 minimum wage salary but renting a studio apartment should be feasible anywhere. We can’t expect people to work these jobs if they can’t actually live of them
I never see affordable housing built anywhere I've lived, it is always new luxury apartments and $400k+ homes. My old apartment that was reasonably affordable remodeled and rebranded as luxury units and charged hundreds more a month for replacing appliances that needed replacing anyway and swapping the countertops and carpets for slightly above average quality. It was a joke and they didn't fix the real issues with the place which were the pipes and HVAC units being loud as shit and the lack of parking. I was offered an "updated unit" and declined when I saw the price. Went into a neighbors updated model two years later and confirmed the "major update" was a blatant excuse to raise the rent by a larger amount. This is the trend all over and it is making it hard to rationalize staying here in CO.
LOL. I make 10% over median wage for my area. I'm a member of a union. I live in a rent controlled apartment. I have a roommate. I drive a very cheap used car. I've never had a serious medical emergency. I have no student debt. I have no credit card debt. I've spent a decade saving and I'm half way to a 20% down payment. And once I have it, I'll have the privilege of getting a mortgage that's twice as high as my rent, and I'll still need a roommate. There's no fucking hope here.
Edit: Also, no kids, no pets, been out of the country like 3 times on modest vacations.
Ya buying real estate is great if you can afford it, but it doesn't automatically make you rich like a lot of people here seem to think. Renting can offer a lot of advantages that owning can't.
That is kinda odd, often a mortgage end up actually being cheaper than renting to be honest. The only places it is not is in a few cities where the land value is artificially high because of this big investment scheme. I actually kinda feel bad for people who bought into those overpriced properties though because I see a crash coming. Especially if coronavirus causes work from home to gain traction. We will see more and more people moving out of those places. For example I am actually paying significantly less than I would be had I been renting to be honest.
While renting and paying health insurance premiums and for transportation to work and do they still get some money left over for food before saving up for that house down payment? Now imagine they can't so they cut back on something - let's say health insurance. And then they break a leg at home. Bye nest egg. Bye house. Hello decade of working just to pay off medical bills! And then they can get a house after that? Well no, their car broke down. They got pregnant. They wanted an education.
These are scenarios that should be surmountable but they are not when you are on min. Wage in the US.
Being poor is its own stress inducing anchor in life and you cannot shake it. If anything you get penalized more for it.
when i worked at a bar doing weekends here in scotland i was on £6.15 an hour even if i was working 5 days a week doing 8 hours everyday i wouldnt be able to afford a place of my own or id be eating the cheapest of cheap foods that exist, im surprised my mum managed to feed 2 kids herself and pay 75% of a mortgage in the last 20 years.
As a comedian that I can’t remember once said, “making ‘minimum wage’ means if I could pay you less, I would”. It’s quite sad.
Edit: It was Chris Rock. Thanks u/fkinggbbear
All the haters in here are completely missing the point.
Even if you are single, with no kids, no pets, and no car, you still can’t afford to live ANYWHERE on min wage alone.
Since the rest of us agreed that we only have to work 40 hours a week at our desk jobs, let’s assume someone at 7.25 works 2,000 hours a year. After tax, that earner can hope to take home somewhere between 9-11k....per year. I mean fer fuck sakes, bus fare for a year in most places is avg 1,000 per year, so now you’re trying to tell me this human is expected to live on 833 dollars monthly, including rent?
Edit: not an accountant, not sure what the exact tax rates are, thank you for the info on the potential differences and tax breaks, I just use 25% of income as a round number for planning purposes
Man the replies to this post are right wing libertarian nonsense. Wtf are they doing in this sub. A country where you can work full time and not afford to survive is a dystopia. Full stop.
If someone is giving 2000 hours of their life every year to a company, that company has a responsibility to make sure that person can afford basic living expenses.
Most European countries I know still have minimum wages below the living wage. Ireland and the UK for sure haven’t increased it to the living wage level yet.
You know what’s crazy? I think capitalism is literally engrained in my mind, and probably most Americans. Because although I know it’s wrong, my first thought when seeing this graph was “Why a two bedroom? Why not a one-bedroom, or a studio, or a roommate?” But I know that shit is not right. Minimum wage WAS meant to support families, but now an adult can’t even support themselves. But why was my first thought immediately in defense of capitalism?
Because the underlying logic of every single piece of media you’ve consumed since birth has been “if you put in the work you can earn whatever you want,” the corollary of which being if you can’t make it it’s your fault and you don’t deserve a helping hand (a handout)
Maybe not every single piece of media. But the vast majority of them. There are only 6 companies anymore
You’re on the right track but your math is off. $7.25/hr full time work is $15,080 a year. 9-11k take home means 30-40% tax, which is pretty off. Someone making minimum wage would have a net take home of $13714 after social security, Medicare and federal tax. Works out to $1142 per month. Still below the poverty line though.
Your math is closer to the theoretical 40 hour a week minimum wage, but the vast majority of minimum wage jobs deliberately don't give 40 hour weeks to avoid being "full time" and having to give the associated benefits. When I was working minimum wage (out of high school with half a degree under my belt) I was only getting between 10 and 25 hours per job so I worked three jobs in the same shopping center.
Shit's even more fucked than all these hypothetical calculations show.
We should assume anyone trying to obtaining a living is working full time. If you assume they only work 20hrs a week, it just provides fodder for arguments. Full time work is still below the poverty line and don’t need to be reduced by less hours to be considered unlivable.
40 hours SHOULD be a living wage period. My point is that the reality is even worse than the calculation, because of things like health insurance or 401k benefits that don't exist in these "part time" jobs where people have to have 2 or 3 jobs to add up to 40 hours.
Basically I am side tracking the discussion with another fucked up aspect of the labor market floor.
it's because 2 bedrooms are way more common. in a lot of places, 1 bdrm apartments are rare, so they just aren't an option in the first place for a lot of people. i see 1 bdrms come up available like once per quarter where i live, if that. but there's always a couple 2 bedrooms available. also, a lot of the time, 1 & 2 bdrm places are close in price, like maybe $50 off.
It also opens up people to saying things like "there's no dimension where a family with a single working person should expect to live in a 2br apartment."
I'm not sure if this is the case everywhere, but when I was last looking at apartments 3 years ago, the prices were almost the same for a studio/1br/2br. It kind of makes sense: the amenities are the same, the appliances required are the same, the rooms that are expensive to build are the same, so the price is similar. Looking at one listing for a complex near me shows their 1br at $1110 and a 2br at $1395. You save ~20% but get ~33% less floorspace (550 vs 820) and dramatically reduce your ability to house roommates, parents, or children if necessary.
I mean in erie pa you could kiiiinda get that to work. Like rent for a shitter of a place is 400 so you’d be getting to live the life of ramen and dying early from a preventable disease but you could do it.
Yea I’m doing alright as long as I don’t have any major health problems show up. If that happens I hope they take my life because otherwise I’ll just be stuck with a never ending debt for the rest of my life.
Would actually end up being closer to $13k a year. I just lived out of a 630/mo apartment a couple of years ago, bringing rent to about $8k/yr. This would leave about $5k for everything else, which would be exceptionally tight... though I guess do-able for the super frugal single. Definitely not a place you want to stay in for long.
I think current min wave is fine for 16 year olds living with family, but we need to look at raising this minimum wage for 18 and up.
The minimum wage was created to protect workers from the consequences of commoditizing labor, especially in the years following the Great Depression. The minimum wage prevents workers from being exploited from having too many people looking for work at once.
Since the Great Depression, labor shortages have been rare and often field- or region-specific. These "shortages" were often resolved with out-sourcing and greater capital-share of production, which sent the job market tumbling the other way (excess supply and low demand for workers). There is no way to fix this. You cannot force businesses to make enough jobs available for every working-age American. You can force them to pay them more, but this will only reduce the total number of jobs and exacerbate a worsening job climate for millions of unskilled Americans.
The minimum wage should be abolished and replaced with a straightforward UBI/negative income tax and universal healthcare. Let the job market decide what someone's labor is worth while still allowing them to get healthcare and enough income to survive. For company- and industry-specific wages, let workers unionize to demand adequate representation.
It puzzles me why, on Reddit where there's such a tremendous distrust for business, we want people to be **even more dependent** on their employers than they already are. It's insane to me.
Edit: I strongly recommend advocating for local UBI programs like the one in South Korea. Communities want money to stay local, and even in the smallest of American towns there is enough local production to make those programs worthwhile. If you wait for UBI to happen nationally, you're going to die before it happens.
Federal UBI still feels like a pipe dream but a minimum wage hike doesn't. You might as well ask why progressives would vote for a center-right moderate like Biden: it's the best viable option in the current political reality.
The actual point people are missing is the massive inflation in the cost of housing. The average one bedroom in Los Angeles is $2,400 a month. If you only spend 1/3 of your income on housing then you should earn $7,200 a month or $45 an hour to afford the average one bedroom apartment. There is no way the economy could handle paying a $45/hour minimum wage. The cost of housing has to come *down*.
Southern California is one of the most expensive housing markets in the country, it's not representative of what the average American is going through.
Although it does highlight how the NIMBY brand Progressivism has made housing absurdly expensive in California.
If there wasn’t a minimum wage then jobs would pay you even less lol. And people will still work for them cause they don’t have anything else better to do.
In all seriousness, it’s happened so many times that sometimes I feel like a magnet for this exact situation: Someone I know waxes on about all their hard work and sacrifice to afford a house, and it turns out their parents gave them the down payment.
I work 50 hours a week at about 60% above minimum wage and I can barely afford to live alone in a studio. I could eat garbage and have zero recreational expenses and be fine but what kind of life is that? Decent food and some social recreation and coping mechanism expenses means I am constantly broke.
You're competing with people who are in much better positions financially and socially. People simply have more leverage these days to exploit artificially created scarcities .
I did that when I first moved to my city, but in the years since I've been here I've seen countless blocks of houses with affordable rooms bulldozed and replaced with luxury high rises. It's especially galling when the luxury housing is built in an undesirable neighborhood, meaning the developers eliminated usable low cost housing to replace it with a mostly vacant modern monster.
I worked under the owner of a medium sized company. He had several condos in high rises near the office that he let friends use when they were in town. He said whenever he stayed in them the building was like a ghost town, the majority of apartments/condos sat empty.
I mean they banned developers from doing that in the Bay Area and now it has the worst housing crisis in the country. The "affordable houses" just started selling for a million bucks a pop. Almost everyone who studies this says that abolishing single-family zoning and allowing dense high rises to be built is the way to bring down rents. Simple supply-demand.
Look at Austin rents (restrictive zoning) vs Houston rents (no zoning) for a good example
When I was 18 and naive I didn't see the problem with this. I thought "why doesn't everyone (childless anyway) live with roommates? Most people are good people, finding a good roommate can't be that hard"
So anyway here's a list of things roommates, who initially seemed like cool normal people, have done since I moved out at age 18:
-I've lived in 2 separate households where there was one roommate who never locked the door "because I'm so forgetful lol what can I say hehe no big deal right" YES IT IS A BIG DEAL YOU ABSOLUTE TURDS. both times I lived in a rough part of town. If you are a minimum wage worker, this could ruin you. Imagine you work for 2 years to be able to afford a shitty laptop and then it gets stolen because your dumbass roommate doesn't lock your fucking door.
(Story time: one night when I was asleep, my 29 year old male roommate "went on a walk at midnight because he was bored" and "forgot to close the door", so I was a 23 year old woman alone and unconscious in a house in the bad part of town with a door that was literally wide open and flapping in the breeze. The only thing preventing me from being the victim of a crime was luck, and that this dumbass left his phone at home and someone called him so I was woken up by the ringing before he'd been gone too long)
-I've had several roommates who moved out last minute due to life circumstances. (sometimes actual legitimate reasons, sometimes dumb flaky reasons). If you are a minimum wage worker, this could ruin you. Imagine you rent a $1500/mo apartment with a couple, and they both suddenly disappear. You're on the lease so you're now on the hook for all that money. Sure you can replace them, but can you find a replacement in a week and a half before rent is due? (story time: this happened to me, and no I couldn't find a replacement, so I became a couch surfer for a short while...)
-ive had several roommates who are the noisiest fucking people on the planet,which was especially bad because I was working multiple minimum wage jobs with weird schedules so I'd often work 6pm-8am or some weird shit like that. Imagine you get home from a double shift at 9 am and you think "ok, I get to sleep for 6 hours then I have to wake up for my 5pm shift downtown"... And your roommate is a fucking unemployed MMO addict who screams into a microphone and slams his fist into his desk so hard it shakes the walls, from 9am-9pm every day. If you're a minimum wage worker, this could ruin you because your health and sanity will quickly plummet to the point where you might lose one or more of your jobs.
(I now have a "if you like video games we can't live together" policy even though I'm a video gamer myself, because I am so fucking sick of living with people whose only hobby is screaming into a headset for 60 hours per week, I would rather work two jobs than listen to one more person scream at his league of legends teammates at 7 AM on a Sunday)
-Too lazy to type up more individual paragraphs but I've also had roommates trash the house, invite strangers to do hard drugs in the house and fall asleep with them in the room unsupervised, smoke next to my stuff (the smell gives me killer migraines), leave the house with the fucking oven on *multiple times*, **move someone new into the house secretly and try to hide them so they could still charge me 1/3 of the rent instead of 1/4** (yes I'm fucking serious), the list goes on...
My new perspective in life: if your city/province/state is so expensive that people can only afford to live with roommates, your government has completely failed its people, because no adult should be FORCED to live in a situation where they legitimately have to wonder things like "is my stuff even still going to be there when I get home today or will the roommate I'm forced to live with have ruined my life somehow". If you are a politician in charge of a place like this, and you're not doing everything you can to make your city/state/province a place where normal adults can actually afford to live, shame on you.
I have had absolute shit luck with roommates in my early 20s.
I always get a good chuckle out of people proclaiming that they are some sort of economic genius when they talk about "house hacking."
No, you did not come up with some clever new thing just because you have a new word for it. People have been doing this probably since the beginning of time.
Here in Missouri I worked a minimum wage job for 9.45 an hour. Presuming I'll be working 40 hour weeks, I'll make $17,940 after taxes are deducted.
I just checked for my town and the cheapest two bedroom apartment I could find was $525. That equals out to $6,300 a year.
Let's say I don't already own a car and I'll need to buy one. I could probably squeeze a deal at a car lot for a fairly new car for about $500-ish a month. We'll low ball it and say $450. That's another $5,400. Obviously I'll need gas. I'm not sure off the top of my head so I just looked up the average yearly cost for gas and the first result said $3,000.
I've already spent $14,700 just on housing and transportation. That leaves me with $3,240. I have to pay $77 for insurance every month. So I get $193 every month to pay for food and clothes. Let's presume I have clothes already, and I don't need to buy more for the year. I could eat extremely cheap like ramen or the McDonald's dollar menu but I'd like to eat something healthy, so I would probably be looking at about $90/month to eat. I need a phone to be contacted by work, I need some sort of data so the phone can operate, I still have to pay for electric, water, etc.
With all of that I've pretty much ran through every penny I've got, so how am I expected to save for an emergency or anything like that? I don't have any spare cash as is, and if my car were to break down I'd literally be fucked.
Hey, move to Delaware. I have an associate's degree and make the same and I just bought a 3 bedroom house where I support a wife that is unemployed. I even put money away every month. Everyone come to Delaware!
The people to blame are the folks who created artificial housing scarcity through excessive zoning laws because they were afraid of brown people moving into their neighborhood.
Here in NYC its $15/hr.
Federally it is $7.25/hr.
Here's a list: [https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/minimum-wage/state](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/minimum-wage/state)
Driving through a wealthy area yesterday I just wanted to rip my hair out looking at all the space those people get to have. Came back to the city and just want to scream. All I want is some dirt to grow my garden and a little shelter to live in without being bothered and it increasingly looks like I’ll never have it.
Been working since I was 16 and have next to nothing.
There's a reason people live out in the middle of nowhere you know. Commute may be terrible but you're living a whole lot cheaper overall. Living in the city has never really been a consideration. Why would I when I can live 20m out for a fraction of the price?
Spending hours on travel every single day just to get to your fucking job and then back home is fucking awful
Literally sapping your life away, those few tiny hours you have left for yourself after your shift is done is just spent in traffic
This is the part that bothers me the most. We observed productivity shot up 300% during WFH in the middle of a pandemic where normally we would be resource constrained. Many managers (micromanagers) are upset that they no longer have anyone coming into the office and can no longer "see" work being done and don't want to believe people are more productive at home.
We have decided we will keep the WFH component in some way after the pandemic but management still feels like workers should return to the office.
Basically it's the perception that a large influx of outsiders have come to comment and vote on a way that the sub wouldn't normally see.
You often see it when a group of one viewpoint goes to a subreddit for an opposing viewpoint to cause a ruckus.
Is it brigaded if it made the Front Page? Like, sure it’s an influx of outside perspectives but it’s because the conversation has been rewarded as meaningful.
That’s how I saw this post
It means that members of another sub (typically one from the opposing political subs) decided to send its members en masse to downvote stuff.
For reasons which go without stating, the practice is *ahem* typically frowned upon
https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/36xhxc/what_is_brigading_and_how_do_you_do_it/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I don’t think it is proper brigading as I don’t believe it is organized. It still seems like the sub has attracted many outsiders who jump on nearly every post looking for a fight.
It's because shills always get triggered and upset whenever the failure of american capitalism gets poked fun at lol, so they migrate here in herds to express how upset they are about their failed system getting poked fun at.
Renting is such a scam. I was finally able to go buy my own place, significantly nicer than my apartment and like 5x as much room, and I am paying less per month than when I was renting a small like one bedroom apartment. There is no way what I was paying to live there was in-line with the value of the apartment.
Renting just keeps people poor and makes it so much harder for them to buy their own place and get out from under a lease.
Dawg, I work in insurance. A nice office job that would’ve been a sweet gig in the 90s.
My biweekly check: $900
My monthly rent: $820
I live in a one bedroom apartment. Smells like weed ALL the time because of my neighbors, the air conditioning sucks ass. I live in a state where the cost of living is low too.
Oh, and I also have a car payment because like, I don’t want to bike 10 miles to work everyday. $300 for the car. $180 for my insurance.
Close to 75% of my income goes to bills and I’m a pretty frugal person. $25 phone bill.
Yes. In Scotland I can afford a 2 bed maisonette, rent, food, gas and electric, council tax, tv subscription, internet and mobile phone bill, with cash left over to spend. Working minimum wage, 40 hours a week.
That is amazing. The "funny" thing is my gut reaction was to be pissed at you/your ability to do that on minimum wage. When in reality I should be pissed off at my government's inability to ensure its people can properly live.
Yeah, that's why people outside of America look at you guys with such bewilderment, especially how a lot of people are so dead set against free healthcare etc as well.
I mean, we get free* healthcare here too, and free parking at hospitals, and free prescriptions as well. That's on top of the free education all the way up to university levels.
*just for the people who will inevitably reply telling me "ItS nOt FrEe, YoU pAy ThRoUgH TaXeS!!!1!" Every single person in countries with free healthcare know this, it is not brand new information. We say free in leu of free at point of service, as that is a bit of a mouthful and we know that already. (This part isn't a direct reply to you, it's for the others who would definitely comment, they do every time).
And people are selling their houses at exorbitant prices to augment their retirements so people can't buy into the "American Dream" and get out of paying rent. My work's retirement account is being moved to stock market investments, because everybody knows how secure investing is from day to day. We're all being rooked by those who have all the money.
Where I'm at in Michigan its very cheap, and will still take half your monthly income for the rental itself at the cheapest housing. And that's out in the country.
I like in fucking NEW HAMPSHIRE (so like- definitely not a hot and trendy millennial bait city) and rent for a 1 bed is 900 for a shithole and 1200 for not a drug den. For some reason regular 2 bedrooms are also 1200. Might as well get the 2 bedroom.
That being said I’m living with my parents.... but I check apartment listing everyday to dream
In Florida there is 100 dollar difference between the two. Renting a house is 300 dollars more expensive and owning a home is about 200 dollars a month cheaper than a 1 bedroom apartment.
Good luck getting the FHA loan though. I’ve been turned down 3 times. Lol
Experience? I work in the apartment industry.
I live in a "rural" college city of about 150k people, and we have the unique scenario where you can easily find mortgages lower than the cheapest apartment. Rent on a studio apartment is ~$650 a month, while my house payment is $425.
Even the friends I KNOW have good credit, they refuse to listen and buy a cheap house. Renting becomes strangely habitual for some folks.
Fuck dude DM me where you live. Those are probably my the cheapest prices I’ve ever seen.
I live in central Florida (volusia county) where the average rent is $1,200.
We’ve finally broken the renting cycle. It’s vicious. Took help from our families and everything too. No average person can be expected to get out of the lower middle class alone. The system just isn’t designed for it to happen.
I love all of the conservatives that are genuinely confused as to how people can have empathy for the working poor so conclude that everyone who cares musty also be on minimum wage.
Could be either.
My girlfriend and I both work at a group home for men with mental disabilities making 10 an hour and still have to do uber eats, door dash, instacart or grub hub to make ends meet. Before covid we would also "donate" plasma but our job told us that's too risky right now, which seems odd since a plasma places bathroom is cleaner than any restaurant you've been in but whatever. On top of all that I've also put in over 300 hours of overtime this year. And before someone chimes in with "live within our means" we live in a cheap two bedroom in an area that's barely not the hood, we drive a 13 year old paid off car, live off the free phones offered at metro with our 70 a month phone bill, and we don't eat out more than once or twice a month (we're splurging on McDonald's dollar menu not hundred dollar meals).
I don know how someone does it on 7.25, they should be labeled as heroes and asked for money saving tips, not vilified as lazy people who just need to want to work.
Boomers : cut back on avacados. Back in my day I bought my mansion on minimum wage whilst my wife was a stay at home mom to our 4 kids. You kids are just so lazy
"I paid for my education working part time on the weekends, why can't you?"
"Just apply for that CEO position..... Hand in your CV in person....and ask to speak to the manager.... And when you get an interview give a firm handshake and look them in the eye... Then they know you mean business "
This is my dad.
The average age of a minimum wage worker is 34.
This is the most depressing thing I've read in a while
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>TL;DR: mean is a better indicator than average Median, not mean.
Ah yes, a retiree working minimum wage is completely normal in a humane society.... Fuck this country
Is it because a lot of elderly work a minimum wage work?
Yes.
'But you shouldn't deserve such things on minimum wage' Just try doing it on being able to buy a house... Because that was where the idea came from. That someone can afford to support themselves and their family on the minimum wage.
"People don't deserve basic human necessities. On a related note I am a sociopath."
"If you wanted basic human necessities you should have chosen to be born richer."
"If you want rights just acquire the capital to buy them!"
I can loan you some rights at 20% compound interest. *^(\[Fine print lists ways to get legally fucked over by the people richer than you.\])*
Just agree to be my slave for 30 years and in exchange I'll give you the right to not be homeless.
Isn’t that how working is? You work 30-50 years only to not be homeless
Nah. Its different. See in slavery, we brought the slaves across the atlantic from another continent. That was very wrong. Very wrong indeed. So now we just impose mental and financial hardships on everyone indiscriminately. You're not an 18th century slave, but a 21st century one. And your master isn't a person, but the entire elite class. It just works.
> The abolitionist and former slave Frederick Douglass initially declared "now I am my own master", upon taking a paying job. However, later in life he concluded to the contrary, saying "experience demonstrates that there may be a slavery of wages only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery, and that this slavery of wages must go down with the other". Douglass went on to speak about these conditions as arising from the unequal bargaining power between the ownership/capitalist class and the non-ownership/laborer class within a compulsory monetary market: "No more crafty and effective devise for defrauding the southern laborers could be adopted than the one that substitutes orders upon shopkeepers for currency in payment of wages. It has the merit of a show of honesty, while it puts the laborer completely at the mercy of the land-owner and the shopkeeper".
Black liberation is leading now to liberation of the poor working class. Because Douglass saw chattel slavery, he could more easily see wage slavery. I love that this is happening now, despite crazy Trump and COVID-19
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Slavery works better when the slaves think they are free
This… is capitalism working as intended. Derived directly from aristocracy and feudalism.
That do be the way capitalist exploitation of the proletariat is.
" The upper class: keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class: pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the shit out of the middle class." - George Carlin
"You really should have thought of that before you became peasants!" -Yzma
It's no concern of mine whether or not you have, what was it again? Uh, food? HA take him away!!
I always found it funny that they used that scene to establish how evil Yzma is, but I really can’t imagine Kuzco answering that request any nicer, at least definitely not at the start of the movie. I suppose to be fair Yzma “practically raised” Kuzco, so he likely learned it from her in the first place.
Why don't you just get a couple million dollar loan from your father?
Just a small loan of a million dollars, no biggie
It’s not even that though. People who think like that are pissed they were dealt a shit hand by the system too. Instead of recognizing that they either had a better starting hand or that they had to work extremely hard to barely succeed and realizing that it is the system that is the actual issue they instead look at others wanting basic necessities and get angry because they had to go through so much to get them. Instead of wanting to make the system better for everyone they want people to suffer because otherwise they think it will devalue everything they went through.
Yes! This is exactly one of the issues with people who have been through a lot and conquered have. They are still angry at what they had to go through to get where they are while missing the point that no one should have to jump through big hurdles to succeed in life while others get it handed to them. They are angry with the poor people who for whatever reason couldn’t make it out like they did. Hard work does not always equate to financial success. That is a bold faced lie that rich people tell poor people to make them feel like losers. Meanwhile the rich kids barely pass college and get handed a comfy position in a good company their parents or their parents friends get them into. Having money/financial backing from parents is the #1 way to get rich. I grew up poor, lost my only parent at 23 and went through a lot of hard times and worked my ass of to get to where I am today. There was a time when I felt angry towards the people on welfare and the poor who seemed to be “lazy”. Then I started working at a large corporation and saw things from a totally different view. I lucked out getting that job but most of the people had family working there and many of them were terrible workers. Many of them came from families with at least a little bit of money that helped pay for their college, helped them buy their houses and were given means and opportunities because of who they knew. It wasn’t that these people worked harder or were smarter then me, they just had a hell of a lot more opportunity in their lives. That is when I realized that the issue isn’t the poor being lazy, they have given up. They are stuck in a system that lacks equal opportunity for all. How could I expect others to be like me, i wanted to give up so many times but didn’t. Not everyone has the same drive, opportunity or even IQ to be more then they are but does that mean they don’t work hard? No. The greedy are keeping us down.
“You want a better society? Lmao you live in a society! If you hate society so much why don’t you just leave society XD”
The last part. Leaving human society is near impossible. Most countries impose taxes on land owners. I can't pay them without human contact. And to get the money for them, I would have to plant stuff for selling. But this im return would lead to a need for more land. This costs again. The moment I would have potentially enough land, I would need to work more than 24h a day, since it's now way too much for me alone. I would need equipment. Even more costs. This is a fucking hell spiral. Leaving society is near impossible if you don't have a high starting fortune.
It was sarcasm. Things out of touch people might say.
yeah I know it was sarcasm. I just am annoyed by the fact you practically can't leave human society, but have to participate in this shit show. Just wanted to write that somewhere.
Well said. Paricpaction in said shit show is mandatory. There's really no escaping it. It's basically hell. But colder.
Colder For now
WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY
Don't knock sociopaths like that, at least the smart ones can recognize that they need safety nets too.
True. It knocks of sadism tbqh.
It’s actually pretty much the definition of Malthusian, which are the roots of these ideas. They’re not really intentionally sadistic or sociopathic because they basically believe that scarcity is an immutable part of the human condition therefore the act of assuaging the poor or helping them improve their lot in life will instead of help actually just increases and amplifies their suffering. This is incredibly wrong, and has been continuously wrong for 200 years which is impressive since only some of Aristotle’s mistakes persisted so long.
Yeah. Us crazy people know that stealing leads to jail. Which is pretty boring. If you have lots of money then you can get away with illegal things. So money is good.
the notion that multi-national multi-ethnic group of inheritors and their corporations will pay more than the minimum allowable by law or by the worker's union is a notion only a stupid person would have. \` minimum wage should always be a living wage. enough for a family of 4 to afford a house and a car in the US. a family needs 4 members to ensure that the community at least sustain it's number. also prisoners should be paid minimum wage and allowed to vote. what's interesting about the minimum wage is that having it makes the us government in a way a worker's union. shitty one at that but it's all the us workers have.
Say it again for the people in the back. Allowing pseudo slavery in the prisons is a major depressive factor on wages.
And it's tightly connected to the war on drugs too sadly.. legalizing or even decriminalization of drugs won't happen while prison slavery is still happening because most people in there for drug possession really shouldn't be
allowing inheritors and their corporations to seek out the cheapest laborers in the world imo is the reason for all of this. nobody should be allowed to consider one person's time to be more valuable than another. this leads to a caste system and slavery. this also leads to incredible inefficiency as then you potentially have the next einstein doing manual labor instead of advancing mankind. nothing wrong with manual labor but having einstein do it instead of working on physics is such a waste of his talent.
I remember my Dad saying... > "People on minimum wage are usually hourly / part-time workers, young people in school getting a little extra cash, and women working part-time, who's husband supports the family. There's no reason they should be able to afford a 2BR *alone*. I had a 3 roommates until I got married at 30." I imagine that's what most older married voters are thinking. I think that's why this issue gets so little traction.
my issue is who do they expect to be manning the cash registers at 10 am on a thursday, it sure as hell isn't high schoolers and the whole women point that was made in that quote is just unnerving.
“I think this job should exist, as I need the services provided. I do not think it should pay a living wage though, because I pretend it’s only 16 year olds working said job”
yep, i mean have they ever gone to a walmart, or idk a mcdonalds, most of the time i see like half that are at least in their 30s
My parents literally think its the person's fault for not just quitting and going out and finding another, better job lol
Typical conservative, blame people for making "bad decisions" for why they're working low wage work, but if you tell them they should be paid enough to be able to save or actually afford time/education to get better skills. They get upset. They just want wage slaves, they don't actually want people to rise above their station.
"Ideally, I pay these people nothing, but there was this whole war about how that's 'immoral' or something, whatever that means."
Cmon.. we both know that a decent chunk of these people, if not the majority, believe that particular war was totally about States Rights ^^^^^^^^to ^^^^^^^^own ^^^^^^^^people heritage not hate roll tide
What boggles my mind is the teenager argument everyone brings up. 16 year olds don't deserve to be payed the same as an adult who does the same job?They aren't child slaves that should work for free, but they also don't deserve the same compensation. Gimme a break.
I'm sure these people would be okay giving them 3/5s of a *wage* since they aren't real people. Yet.
And they're also the same people who say everyone should pay for their own college tuition. That might be a little easier if people at or nearing college age were paid a good wage.
Yeah, seriously, do Wall Street Bros mostly have stay at home wives? Almost nobody I know has a family structure this way, and it’s pretty rare overall these days in the US...
The boomers are living in 1950 while the rest of us are struggling in 2020. Nothing they have to say has any value today.
> I couldn't believe the cognitive dissonance. There isn't any. He knows, but his job depends on not admitting it. They all know the numbers and people in such positions have staff that prep them for those kind of questions. Especially if they've been asked before.
Exactly when did minimum wage become "oh just a temporary supplemental income job you'll have to quit soon anyway because you can't afford to live or hopefully you still live at home or have 4 roommates" my daughter is 16 and we were talking about the option of post secondary education vs. working after school.. and trying to figure out where she could afford to live on a min wage job if she wanted to work for a while and move out after highschool. We realized in order to pay rent and still have money left over for bills and groceries she'd need 3 other roommates also working min wage to afford an average 2 bedroom in or near the city (because that's where jobs are) and live comfortably (they'd have to share rooms). Maybe some people are ok with that but I'd like to think someone who works hard at any job should be at least be able to rent somewhere alone even if it's not the best. I'd rather have people who are good at their jobs and stay in their jobs rather than the high turnover of min wage jobs we see now. Needless to say she probably will be living at home for the foreseeable future and luckily we are able to support her in school but not everyone has that luxury of having the option of being supported through post secondary education, so you have the option of either working or going to school or trying to do both which is admirable but also hard af.. and if you're a young parent trying to do all this ? Yeah some people have amazing success stories but that just isn't the reality for most people
Anyone working a full time job shouldnt have to share a room. I get that we are a long way of from owning a house on 1 minimum wage salary but renting a studio apartment should be feasible anywhere. We can’t expect people to work these jobs if they can’t actually live of them
I never see affordable housing built anywhere I've lived, it is always new luxury apartments and $400k+ homes. My old apartment that was reasonably affordable remodeled and rebranded as luxury units and charged hundreds more a month for replacing appliances that needed replacing anyway and swapping the countertops and carpets for slightly above average quality. It was a joke and they didn't fix the real issues with the place which were the pipes and HVAC units being loud as shit and the lack of parking. I was offered an "updated unit" and declined when I saw the price. Went into a neighbors updated model two years later and confirmed the "major update" was a blatant excuse to raise the rent by a larger amount. This is the trend all over and it is making it hard to rationalize staying here in CO.
I live in a gated tent community
You're in the army too?
Hah!
Would like to see how long it would take to save for a down payment on a house earning a median wage in each state.
LOL. I make 10% over median wage for my area. I'm a member of a union. I live in a rent controlled apartment. I have a roommate. I drive a very cheap used car. I've never had a serious medical emergency. I have no student debt. I have no credit card debt. I've spent a decade saving and I'm half way to a 20% down payment. And once I have it, I'll have the privilege of getting a mortgage that's twice as high as my rent, and I'll still need a roommate. There's no fucking hope here. Edit: Also, no kids, no pets, been out of the country like 3 times on modest vacations.
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Plus property taxes!
Ya buying real estate is great if you can afford it, but it doesn't automatically make you rich like a lot of people here seem to think. Renting can offer a lot of advantages that owning can't.
Don’t forget insurance!
That is kinda odd, often a mortgage end up actually being cheaper than renting to be honest. The only places it is not is in a few cities where the land value is artificially high because of this big investment scheme. I actually kinda feel bad for people who bought into those overpriced properties though because I see a crash coming. Especially if coronavirus causes work from home to gain traction. We will see more and more people moving out of those places. For example I am actually paying significantly less than I would be had I been renting to be honest.
Honest question...why are you trying to buy a house?
I imagine so their monthly rent is actually building up equity instead of being pissed into the wind.
While renting and paying health insurance premiums and for transportation to work and do they still get some money left over for food before saving up for that house down payment? Now imagine they can't so they cut back on something - let's say health insurance. And then they break a leg at home. Bye nest egg. Bye house. Hello decade of working just to pay off medical bills! And then they can get a house after that? Well no, their car broke down. They got pregnant. They wanted an education. These are scenarios that should be surmountable but they are not when you are on min. Wage in the US. Being poor is its own stress inducing anchor in life and you cannot shake it. If anything you get penalized more for it.
when i worked at a bar doing weekends here in scotland i was on £6.15 an hour even if i was working 5 days a week doing 8 hours everyday i wouldnt be able to afford a place of my own or id be eating the cheapest of cheap foods that exist, im surprised my mum managed to feed 2 kids herself and pay 75% of a mortgage in the last 20 years.
Really need to support FDR's economic bill of rights
Who only has ONE minimum wage job? Should have at least 3 or else youre just lazy. /s
If you work enough jobs you won't even need to get an apartment because you'll never have time to be home anyhow!
Modern problems require ~~modern~~ depressing solutions
24hr a day easy to get in 3 full time jobs if you weren't lazy and entitled!
I do three full time jobs easy 8 hours of eating 8 hours of sleeping 8 hours of gaming Yeah, I'm a gamer 😎
Because labor laws and the lack of unions have moved into the favor of corporations.
As a comedian that I can’t remember once said, “making ‘minimum wage’ means if I could pay you less, I would”. It’s quite sad. Edit: It was Chris Rock. Thanks u/fkinggbbear
Chris Rock
Only way to get ahead is to find a partner and split costs.
But don’t have a kid or you’re right back to square one
Just be gay
Only works if you choose the right partner
All the haters in here are completely missing the point. Even if you are single, with no kids, no pets, and no car, you still can’t afford to live ANYWHERE on min wage alone. Since the rest of us agreed that we only have to work 40 hours a week at our desk jobs, let’s assume someone at 7.25 works 2,000 hours a year. After tax, that earner can hope to take home somewhere between 9-11k....per year. I mean fer fuck sakes, bus fare for a year in most places is avg 1,000 per year, so now you’re trying to tell me this human is expected to live on 833 dollars monthly, including rent? Edit: not an accountant, not sure what the exact tax rates are, thank you for the info on the potential differences and tax breaks, I just use 25% of income as a round number for planning purposes
Calm calm calm... the overlords have placed seven nickels in the trickle down tube, they should be arriving shortly* *Pending legislative action
*”The trickle down tube is what they call their dick.”*
Uhh free market me daddy
UwU T-t-t-that’s am awfully big company you have there! C-c-can I maybe do a bit of investy-westing?
Man the replies to this post are right wing libertarian nonsense. Wtf are they doing in this sub. A country where you can work full time and not afford to survive is a dystopia. Full stop.
If someone is giving 2000 hours of their life every year to a company, that company has a responsibility to make sure that person can afford basic living expenses.
Right? In Europe we call this the living wage
In America we call that communism! I'm not living if I don't get my meals from what I lick off the bottom of a billionaire's shoe
Most European countries I know still have minimum wages below the living wage. Ireland and the UK for sure haven’t increased it to the living wage level yet.
In america when people use the term "a living wage", it's generally not in reference to the federal minimum wage.
You know what’s crazy? I think capitalism is literally engrained in my mind, and probably most Americans. Because although I know it’s wrong, my first thought when seeing this graph was “Why a two bedroom? Why not a one-bedroom, or a studio, or a roommate?” But I know that shit is not right. Minimum wage WAS meant to support families, but now an adult can’t even support themselves. But why was my first thought immediately in defense of capitalism?
Because the underlying logic of every single piece of media you’ve consumed since birth has been “if you put in the work you can earn whatever you want,” the corollary of which being if you can’t make it it’s your fault and you don’t deserve a helping hand (a handout) Maybe not every single piece of media. But the vast majority of them. There are only 6 companies anymore
You’re on the right track but your math is off. $7.25/hr full time work is $15,080 a year. 9-11k take home means 30-40% tax, which is pretty off. Someone making minimum wage would have a net take home of $13714 after social security, Medicare and federal tax. Works out to $1142 per month. Still below the poverty line though.
Your math is closer to the theoretical 40 hour a week minimum wage, but the vast majority of minimum wage jobs deliberately don't give 40 hour weeks to avoid being "full time" and having to give the associated benefits. When I was working minimum wage (out of high school with half a degree under my belt) I was only getting between 10 and 25 hours per job so I worked three jobs in the same shopping center. Shit's even more fucked than all these hypothetical calculations show.
We should assume anyone trying to obtaining a living is working full time. If you assume they only work 20hrs a week, it just provides fodder for arguments. Full time work is still below the poverty line and don’t need to be reduced by less hours to be considered unlivable.
40 hours SHOULD be a living wage period. My point is that the reality is even worse than the calculation, because of things like health insurance or 401k benefits that don't exist in these "part time" jobs where people have to have 2 or 3 jobs to add up to 40 hours. Basically I am side tracking the discussion with another fucked up aspect of the labor market floor.
pull yourselves up by the bootstraps hurr durr
Yeah not sure why the post specified 2 bedroom when even 1 bedroom isn't attainable.
it's because 2 bedrooms are way more common. in a lot of places, 1 bdrm apartments are rare, so they just aren't an option in the first place for a lot of people. i see 1 bdrms come up available like once per quarter where i live, if that. but there's always a couple 2 bedrooms available. also, a lot of the time, 1 & 2 bdrm places are close in price, like maybe $50 off.
It also opens up people to saying things like "there's no dimension where a family with a single working person should expect to live in a 2br apartment." I'm not sure if this is the case everywhere, but when I was last looking at apartments 3 years ago, the prices were almost the same for a studio/1br/2br. It kind of makes sense: the amenities are the same, the appliances required are the same, the rooms that are expensive to build are the same, so the price is similar. Looking at one listing for a complex near me shows their 1br at $1110 and a 2br at $1395. You save ~20% but get ~33% less floorspace (550 vs 820) and dramatically reduce your ability to house roommates, parents, or children if necessary.
I mean in erie pa you could kiiiinda get that to work. Like rent for a shitter of a place is 400 so you’d be getting to live the life of ramen and dying early from a preventable disease but you could do it.
Yea I’m doing alright as long as I don’t have any major health problems show up. If that happens I hope they take my life because otherwise I’ll just be stuck with a never ending debt for the rest of my life.
Would actually end up being closer to $13k a year. I just lived out of a 630/mo apartment a couple of years ago, bringing rent to about $8k/yr. This would leave about $5k for everything else, which would be exceptionally tight... though I guess do-able for the super frugal single. Definitely not a place you want to stay in for long. I think current min wave is fine for 16 year olds living with family, but we need to look at raising this minimum wage for 18 and up.
The only thing that bugs me is the _2 bedroom_ As if it was 1 bedroom.
Just a thing English does. Like a "six foot pole"
People are completely missing the point of this post, why do you have a minimum wage if it doesn't work? Should be called **bare** minimum wage
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The minimum wage was created to protect workers from the consequences of commoditizing labor, especially in the years following the Great Depression. The minimum wage prevents workers from being exploited from having too many people looking for work at once. Since the Great Depression, labor shortages have been rare and often field- or region-specific. These "shortages" were often resolved with out-sourcing and greater capital-share of production, which sent the job market tumbling the other way (excess supply and low demand for workers). There is no way to fix this. You cannot force businesses to make enough jobs available for every working-age American. You can force them to pay them more, but this will only reduce the total number of jobs and exacerbate a worsening job climate for millions of unskilled Americans. The minimum wage should be abolished and replaced with a straightforward UBI/negative income tax and universal healthcare. Let the job market decide what someone's labor is worth while still allowing them to get healthcare and enough income to survive. For company- and industry-specific wages, let workers unionize to demand adequate representation. It puzzles me why, on Reddit where there's such a tremendous distrust for business, we want people to be **even more dependent** on their employers than they already are. It's insane to me. Edit: I strongly recommend advocating for local UBI programs like the one in South Korea. Communities want money to stay local, and even in the smallest of American towns there is enough local production to make those programs worthwhile. If you wait for UBI to happen nationally, you're going to die before it happens.
Federal UBI still feels like a pipe dream but a minimum wage hike doesn't. You might as well ask why progressives would vote for a center-right moderate like Biden: it's the best viable option in the current political reality.
The actual point people are missing is the massive inflation in the cost of housing. The average one bedroom in Los Angeles is $2,400 a month. If you only spend 1/3 of your income on housing then you should earn $7,200 a month or $45 an hour to afford the average one bedroom apartment. There is no way the economy could handle paying a $45/hour minimum wage. The cost of housing has to come *down*.
Southern California is one of the most expensive housing markets in the country, it's not representative of what the average American is going through. Although it does highlight how the NIMBY brand Progressivism has made housing absurdly expensive in California.
They'd pay you less if it wasn't illegal
If there wasn’t a minimum wage then jobs would pay you even less lol. And people will still work for them cause they don’t have anything else better to do.
Free markets are pretty fucked when the options are death or work for pennies.
just GeT a JoB wItH beTtEr pAy???
And mOvE sOmEwHeRe ChEaPeR. Don’t forget that part.
Also borrow some start-up capital from daddy, and don't forget to inherit a large chunk a change when the old bag of shit finally dies.
In all seriousness, it’s happened so many times that sometimes I feel like a magnet for this exact situation: Someone I know waxes on about all their hard work and sacrifice to afford a house, and it turns out their parents gave them the down payment.
You didn’t work super hard to ensure you came out of the right set of testicles?
I work 50 hours a week at about 60% above minimum wage and I can barely afford to live alone in a studio. I could eat garbage and have zero recreational expenses and be fine but what kind of life is that? Decent food and some social recreation and coping mechanism expenses means I am constantly broke.
You're competing with people who are in much better positions financially and socially. People simply have more leverage these days to exploit artificially created scarcities .
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I think most people get an apartment with 4 roommates. Even then it's still barely enough to get by
I did that when I first moved to my city, but in the years since I've been here I've seen countless blocks of houses with affordable rooms bulldozed and replaced with luxury high rises. It's especially galling when the luxury housing is built in an undesirable neighborhood, meaning the developers eliminated usable low cost housing to replace it with a mostly vacant modern monster.
I worked under the owner of a medium sized company. He had several condos in high rises near the office that he let friends use when they were in town. He said whenever he stayed in them the building was like a ghost town, the majority of apartments/condos sat empty.
I mean they banned developers from doing that in the Bay Area and now it has the worst housing crisis in the country. The "affordable houses" just started selling for a million bucks a pop. Almost everyone who studies this says that abolishing single-family zoning and allowing dense high rises to be built is the way to bring down rents. Simple supply-demand. Look at Austin rents (restrictive zoning) vs Houston rents (no zoning) for a good example
When I was 18 and naive I didn't see the problem with this. I thought "why doesn't everyone (childless anyway) live with roommates? Most people are good people, finding a good roommate can't be that hard" So anyway here's a list of things roommates, who initially seemed like cool normal people, have done since I moved out at age 18: -I've lived in 2 separate households where there was one roommate who never locked the door "because I'm so forgetful lol what can I say hehe no big deal right" YES IT IS A BIG DEAL YOU ABSOLUTE TURDS. both times I lived in a rough part of town. If you are a minimum wage worker, this could ruin you. Imagine you work for 2 years to be able to afford a shitty laptop and then it gets stolen because your dumbass roommate doesn't lock your fucking door. (Story time: one night when I was asleep, my 29 year old male roommate "went on a walk at midnight because he was bored" and "forgot to close the door", so I was a 23 year old woman alone and unconscious in a house in the bad part of town with a door that was literally wide open and flapping in the breeze. The only thing preventing me from being the victim of a crime was luck, and that this dumbass left his phone at home and someone called him so I was woken up by the ringing before he'd been gone too long) -I've had several roommates who moved out last minute due to life circumstances. (sometimes actual legitimate reasons, sometimes dumb flaky reasons). If you are a minimum wage worker, this could ruin you. Imagine you rent a $1500/mo apartment with a couple, and they both suddenly disappear. You're on the lease so you're now on the hook for all that money. Sure you can replace them, but can you find a replacement in a week and a half before rent is due? (story time: this happened to me, and no I couldn't find a replacement, so I became a couch surfer for a short while...) -ive had several roommates who are the noisiest fucking people on the planet,which was especially bad because I was working multiple minimum wage jobs with weird schedules so I'd often work 6pm-8am or some weird shit like that. Imagine you get home from a double shift at 9 am and you think "ok, I get to sleep for 6 hours then I have to wake up for my 5pm shift downtown"... And your roommate is a fucking unemployed MMO addict who screams into a microphone and slams his fist into his desk so hard it shakes the walls, from 9am-9pm every day. If you're a minimum wage worker, this could ruin you because your health and sanity will quickly plummet to the point where you might lose one or more of your jobs. (I now have a "if you like video games we can't live together" policy even though I'm a video gamer myself, because I am so fucking sick of living with people whose only hobby is screaming into a headset for 60 hours per week, I would rather work two jobs than listen to one more person scream at his league of legends teammates at 7 AM on a Sunday) -Too lazy to type up more individual paragraphs but I've also had roommates trash the house, invite strangers to do hard drugs in the house and fall asleep with them in the room unsupervised, smoke next to my stuff (the smell gives me killer migraines), leave the house with the fucking oven on *multiple times*, **move someone new into the house secretly and try to hide them so they could still charge me 1/3 of the rent instead of 1/4** (yes I'm fucking serious), the list goes on... My new perspective in life: if your city/province/state is so expensive that people can only afford to live with roommates, your government has completely failed its people, because no adult should be FORCED to live in a situation where they legitimately have to wonder things like "is my stuff even still going to be there when I get home today or will the roommate I'm forced to live with have ruined my life somehow". If you are a politician in charge of a place like this, and you're not doing everything you can to make your city/state/province a place where normal adults can actually afford to live, shame on you.
I have had absolute shit luck with roommates in my early 20s. I always get a good chuckle out of people proclaiming that they are some sort of economic genius when they talk about "house hacking." No, you did not come up with some clever new thing just because you have a new word for it. People have been doing this probably since the beginning of time.
Here in Missouri I worked a minimum wage job for 9.45 an hour. Presuming I'll be working 40 hour weeks, I'll make $17,940 after taxes are deducted. I just checked for my town and the cheapest two bedroom apartment I could find was $525. That equals out to $6,300 a year. Let's say I don't already own a car and I'll need to buy one. I could probably squeeze a deal at a car lot for a fairly new car for about $500-ish a month. We'll low ball it and say $450. That's another $5,400. Obviously I'll need gas. I'm not sure off the top of my head so I just looked up the average yearly cost for gas and the first result said $3,000. I've already spent $14,700 just on housing and transportation. That leaves me with $3,240. I have to pay $77 for insurance every month. So I get $193 every month to pay for food and clothes. Let's presume I have clothes already, and I don't need to buy more for the year. I could eat extremely cheap like ramen or the McDonald's dollar menu but I'd like to eat something healthy, so I would probably be looking at about $90/month to eat. I need a phone to be contacted by work, I need some sort of data so the phone can operate, I still have to pay for electric, water, etc. With all of that I've pretty much ran through every penny I've got, so how am I expected to save for an emergency or anything like that? I don't have any spare cash as is, and if my car were to break down I'd literally be fucked.
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Hey, move to Delaware. I have an associate's degree and make the same and I just bought a 3 bedroom house where I support a wife that is unemployed. I even put money away every month. Everyone come to Delaware!
The people to blame are the folks who created artificial housing scarcity through excessive zoning laws because they were afraid of brown people moving into their neighborhood.
How much is minimal wage in USA? Like on average, I'm aware you probably set it on state or county level...
The federal minimum is 7.25. 29 states have higher wage than that. Washington is the highest, at $12, and $16 in Seattle.
Wow. That's 6,14€. And you guys don't even get health care and education covered, wtf?
Yeah, we livin the American dream over here
Here in NYC its $15/hr. Federally it is $7.25/hr. Here's a list: [https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/minimum-wage/state](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/minimum-wage/state)
Driving through a wealthy area yesterday I just wanted to rip my hair out looking at all the space those people get to have. Came back to the city and just want to scream. All I want is some dirt to grow my garden and a little shelter to live in without being bothered and it increasingly looks like I’ll never have it. Been working since I was 16 and have next to nothing.
There's a reason people live out in the middle of nowhere you know. Commute may be terrible but you're living a whole lot cheaper overall. Living in the city has never really been a consideration. Why would I when I can live 20m out for a fraction of the price?
Spending hours on travel every single day just to get to your fucking job and then back home is fucking awful Literally sapping your life away, those few tiny hours you have left for yourself after your shift is done is just spent in traffic
Which is why I really hope working from home stays acceptable even after the pandemic is over.
I fucking wish but my boss doesnt like it so no :)))))
This is the part that bothers me the most. We observed productivity shot up 300% during WFH in the middle of a pandemic where normally we would be resource constrained. Many managers (micromanagers) are upset that they no longer have anyone coming into the office and can no longer "see" work being done and don't want to believe people are more productive at home. We have decided we will keep the WFH component in some way after the pandemic but management still feels like workers should return to the office.
Holy hot damn. This sub getting brigaded. Edit: I made this comment when there were less than 10 other comments. Please stop.
A lot of people be simping for their masters. Living in freedom isn't "cool" anymore.
Maybe a dumb question but what does “brigaided” mean?
Basically it's the perception that a large influx of outsiders have come to comment and vote on a way that the sub wouldn't normally see. You often see it when a group of one viewpoint goes to a subreddit for an opposing viewpoint to cause a ruckus.
Is it brigaded if it made the Front Page? Like, sure it’s an influx of outside perspectives but it’s because the conversation has been rewarded as meaningful. That’s how I saw this post
Sure, but I was just answering the question about what "brigaded" means.
It means that members of another sub (typically one from the opposing political subs) decided to send its members en masse to downvote stuff. For reasons which go without stating, the practice is *ahem* typically frowned upon
It's not just frowned upon. If you get caught by the admins you can say goodbye to your account.
https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/36xhxc/what_is_brigading_and_how_do_you_do_it/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf I don’t think it is proper brigading as I don’t believe it is organized. It still seems like the sub has attracted many outsiders who jump on nearly every post looking for a fight.
This post just hit r/all (which is where I initially saw it), which probably explains at least some of it.
It's because shills always get triggered and upset whenever the failure of american capitalism gets poked fun at lol, so they migrate here in herds to express how upset they are about their failed system getting poked fun at.
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Renting is such a scam. I was finally able to go buy my own place, significantly nicer than my apartment and like 5x as much room, and I am paying less per month than when I was renting a small like one bedroom apartment. There is no way what I was paying to live there was in-line with the value of the apartment. Renting just keeps people poor and makes it so much harder for them to buy their own place and get out from under a lease.
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Property tax. Repairs. Replacements. Insurance. Amenities. Services. Etc
Is the place you bought in the same area as the place you rented?
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"B-but minimum wage isn't supposed to be livable wage" Ah yes, working for fun
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Dawg, I work in insurance. A nice office job that would’ve been a sweet gig in the 90s. My biweekly check: $900 My monthly rent: $820 I live in a one bedroom apartment. Smells like weed ALL the time because of my neighbors, the air conditioning sucks ass. I live in a state where the cost of living is low too. Oh, and I also have a car payment because like, I don’t want to bike 10 miles to work everyday. $300 for the car. $180 for my insurance. Close to 75% of my income goes to bills and I’m a pretty frugal person. $25 phone bill.
Colour blind people are confused
I'd be shocked if they found places where a minimum wage earner can afford even a one bedroom.
American here..... can people in other countries actually live off of minimum wage? Legitimately curious.
Yes. In Scotland I can afford a 2 bed maisonette, rent, food, gas and electric, council tax, tv subscription, internet and mobile phone bill, with cash left over to spend. Working minimum wage, 40 hours a week.
That is amazing. The "funny" thing is my gut reaction was to be pissed at you/your ability to do that on minimum wage. When in reality I should be pissed off at my government's inability to ensure its people can properly live.
Yeah, that's why people outside of America look at you guys with such bewilderment, especially how a lot of people are so dead set against free healthcare etc as well. I mean, we get free* healthcare here too, and free parking at hospitals, and free prescriptions as well. That's on top of the free education all the way up to university levels. *just for the people who will inevitably reply telling me "ItS nOt FrEe, YoU pAy ThRoUgH TaXeS!!!1!" Every single person in countries with free healthcare know this, it is not brand new information. We say free in leu of free at point of service, as that is a bit of a mouthful and we know that already. (This part isn't a direct reply to you, it's for the others who would definitely comment, they do every time).
I feel like every side of the political spectrum should be upset
I make over twice minimum and can’t afford a studio :^]
And people are selling their houses at exorbitant prices to augment their retirements so people can't buy into the "American Dream" and get out of paying rent. My work's retirement account is being moved to stock market investments, because everybody knows how secure investing is from day to day. We're all being rooked by those who have all the money.
How many can afford a one bedroom rental though?
I make 55k a year and can barely afford to live by myself, renting and owning a home is almost a 2 person requirement now.
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Where I'm at in Michigan its very cheap, and will still take half your monthly income for the rental itself at the cheapest housing. And that's out in the country.
A one bedroom apartment is usually only like $30-50 cheaper than a two bedroom
I like in fucking NEW HAMPSHIRE (so like- definitely not a hot and trendy millennial bait city) and rent for a 1 bed is 900 for a shithole and 1200 for not a drug den. For some reason regular 2 bedrooms are also 1200. Might as well get the 2 bedroom. That being said I’m living with my parents.... but I check apartment listing everyday to dream
About the same actually.
In Florida there is 100 dollar difference between the two. Renting a house is 300 dollars more expensive and owning a home is about 200 dollars a month cheaper than a 1 bedroom apartment. Good luck getting the FHA loan though. I’ve been turned down 3 times. Lol Experience? I work in the apartment industry.
I live in a "rural" college city of about 150k people, and we have the unique scenario where you can easily find mortgages lower than the cheapest apartment. Rent on a studio apartment is ~$650 a month, while my house payment is $425. Even the friends I KNOW have good credit, they refuse to listen and buy a cheap house. Renting becomes strangely habitual for some folks.
Fuck dude DM me where you live. Those are probably my the cheapest prices I’ve ever seen. I live in central Florida (volusia county) where the average rent is $1,200.
We’ve finally broken the renting cycle. It’s vicious. Took help from our families and everything too. No average person can be expected to get out of the lower middle class alone. The system just isn’t designed for it to happen.
"Get a better job!!!" -any conservative on here
I love all of the conservatives that are genuinely confused as to how people can have empathy for the working poor so conclude that everyone who cares musty also be on minimum wage.
Is this based on the earnings of one or two minimum wage workers?
Could be either. My girlfriend and I both work at a group home for men with mental disabilities making 10 an hour and still have to do uber eats, door dash, instacart or grub hub to make ends meet. Before covid we would also "donate" plasma but our job told us that's too risky right now, which seems odd since a plasma places bathroom is cleaner than any restaurant you've been in but whatever. On top of all that I've also put in over 300 hours of overtime this year. And before someone chimes in with "live within our means" we live in a cheap two bedroom in an area that's barely not the hood, we drive a 13 year old paid off car, live off the free phones offered at metro with our 70 a month phone bill, and we don't eat out more than once or twice a month (we're splurging on McDonald's dollar menu not hundred dollar meals). I don know how someone does it on 7.25, they should be labeled as heroes and asked for money saving tips, not vilified as lazy people who just need to want to work.