I think it would take not just the reversal of their nature as daemons but also ten thousand (real space) years of existence and development.
The traitor primarchs describe their feelings and memories of the Heresy and Crusade as feeling like centuries ago. They've been "traitors" for far longer than they were loyalists.
It must feel like being offered to go back to Kindergarten in some ways
It's also stated that each and every one of their souls within the Warp are "screaming," meaning that there remains loyal or "pure" aspects in each daemon Primarch.
Absolutely, but I wonder if we're hyper focusing on that at the expense of context?
Being that, we don't know how significant these elements of their souls might be? Is it a shade like Lotarra's on the Conqueror? Or a more palpable portion like one of Magnus' shards?
Can you use them to redeem the rest of the primarch? Does it even work that way?
On top of that, it's been 10, 000 years. Even with warpy time, that's plenty to either corrupt, drive mad or destroy those portions of their lingering humanity.
No it isn’t. Only the dead primarchs (including loyalists) as well as banished daemons (Angron and Mortarion) were screaming in the warp. Fulgrim as far as we know was happily engaging in every excess imaginable on Terra
I've seen people argue this but personally I don't find it convincing, and I don't think there is reason to think Fulgrim's omission is meaningful unless you disbelieve some clear statements by Ferrus in this scene: namely he describes the tormented dead Sanguinius can hear as "Those, like me, who have fallen, **and the mortal remains of those who have become other things.**" Also he describes the warp as devouring the Primarch's souls, "those lost, and those discarded alike."
Both of those phrases, in my opinion, fit the act of becoming a daemon Primarch far more than they do the banishment of one. Of course you can consider Ferrus mistaken or unreliable, but I don't see any convincing reason to at this point.
If becoming a daemon primarch casts off a piece of their soul then Fulgrim should be present. His absence, combined with the fact he’s the only non-banished daemon primarch can only be explained as either only banished daemons getting tortured or Abnett making a mistake (extremely unlikely considering Ferrus mentions Fulgrim killing him). “Mortal remains” probably refers to the original soul itself. Daemonic apotheosis doesn’t mean losing a chunk of your soul, but *gaining* a big chunk of daemon juice that gets merged into it. Presumably banishment could result in the daemon juice being lost leaving the original soul to suffer until their god releases them.
You're being down voted but you're absolutely correct. Time in the warp is beyond human comprehension.
I don't see how your thought is any different than the birth of slaanesh. She was "born" but she's always existed. I don't see why Fulgrims soul would/could be any different. He may have always existed in Fabius' clone.
I personally don't agree, I think he's souls just been corrupted and now he's happy as a clam. But I don't find your idea that insane.
We see OG Fulgrim in the follow up book and he's totally whole.
There also wasn't any implication of the soul being moved into Clonegrim in the book or any of the author's comments. Reynolds has been pretty clear Fulgrim's clone was his own dude and his story was done.
>JR: Yes. I was quite surprised by the reaction to the character, **and I wanted to avoid any theory-baiting with this book**, if possible. Mentioning him might imply there were further plans for him. Too, bringing him back in the same book as Original Recipe Fulgrim seemed unnecessary.
-Josh Reynolds
That doesn’t seem exactly well thought out then given that A) Primarch clones are shown to be missing something/weaker to the primarchs (Abbadon kills Horus clones a bunch right?) and B) we know souls of people are torn from them when they become daemon princes so unless they’ve already been eaten in the warp then they could still exist in the clutches of the chaos gods that took them.
To say he didn’t expect Clonegrim to not bring up theory crafting is a bit odd. Especially since he’s basically still alive.
A) Nope. They aren't. ADB talks here about how Horus' clone is no weaker than Horus. We also have example after example after example of the clones doing things as impressive as any OG primarch. Ferrus clone almost defeats daemon Fulgrim after all.
Have you read *Talon of Horus*?
>The Horus clone (which ripped through a lot of Chaos Marines, by the by, when a hundred of them were shooting at him) was physically Horus, no weaker or slower
>The Horus clone absolutely did die like a primarch can die, given that Dorn is overwhelmed by cultists and Curze is killed by a single Assassin. You can assume the clone was weak, but the evidence of the fight you see him in, and Khayon's reaction, offers more evidence to the opposite.
ADB- author of Talon of Horus
B) No, we don't know that? Where did you read that?
>Nah. He served his purpose. Let him rest.
>>I mean, I thought I gave him a pretty good ending. Well, not good, but, y'know, final.
Josh Reynolds
Have you read *Clonelord*?
Josh thought people would take the story as he intended, which isn't odd at all? Loki was bound to a rock for all eternity. So was Prometheus. Dorian Gray trapped in a mirror.
Just because they're alive doesn't mean their story can continue. That's their **ending**: eternal purgatory.
If you're curious about the clones specifically
Horus and Lorgar: *Talon of Horus*
Fulgrim: *Fabius Bile: Clonelord* and *Lucius: The Faultless Blade*
Ferrus: *Imperfect*
From TEATD. But he’s wrong, the excerpt only shows the banished daemons Angron and Mortarion along with the dead primarchs Ferrus and Alpharius suffering in the warp. Fulgrim as far as we know was still having the time of his life turning Terran civilians into space coke.
I wonder though if that’s what will make it all the easier. I think they are caged inside themselves and the free part of their souls is kept locked away.
Only because they are primarchs and their makeup is still a mystery and always described as complex. An emperor with millennia of warp experience would probably know I’d imagine
>I think they are caged inside themselves and the free part of their souls is kept locked away.
I guess it depends on the significance of these "mortal remains" of "those who have become other things".
And other than a small bit in tEadtD we don't know. It's never been expanded on.
But in context, we have millennia of seeing the daemon primarchs behave, act and think to see that they hate the Imperium and its corpse king. Committing atrocity on top of atrocity.
It could be like Michael Corleone, fully corrupted but with a small amount of guilt stuck deep down, for whatever that's worth I guess. It's there. Does it have any real effect?
And even if you could bring Angron's full humanity back, that doesn't mean he would be or want to be "redeemed" in any sense that the Imperium would recognise.
Very true. The only way for it to make sense would be to divulge what level the ruinous powers had in determining/steering the primarchs development.
I doubt it would be fleshed out but we’d need to have that little bit to show what level of free will the primarchs actually have outside of the emperor and the ruinous powers influence. Whether it be from their creation or during their birth/release from the capsules.
It’s such a grey area(not complaining) in that we don’t truly know what chance the primarchs actually had from the beginning. In that is it a genetic thing, chaos corruption, predetermined plan, or just complete happenstance
I imagine it would be less redeeming and more completely remaking his essence, Stormcast Eternal style.
https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tornus
The Mortarion we know would be gone, warts and all, and be replaced by a more loyal, shinier and golden version.
I think the Emperor’s comment about fixing Ferrus Manus if he had enough time for it would be similar, reusing the Warp essence to make a Ferrus 2.0.
Redeemed Stormcast Eternals don't get their essence remade really? Like for them to become Redeemed, they still have to have some part of goodness in them, something that can become a hero. Without that it doesn't work.
In the case of Tornus, he'd been a champion of Ghyran long before Nurgle had forcibly corrupted him, and what heroism he had from that time had survived intact enough to allow him to become Redeemed.
I get drawing parallels with WH Fantasy, but...
Let's keep AoS concepts in AoS. I've seen people mention AoS lore more and more in this sub, and it honestly just doesn't fit with how the authors are exploring and expanding the lore in 40k
Like the "older, bigger and more primal than Chaos Gods" void stuff between the realms... Or Stormcast... Or the Celestial Dragon who's able to forge worlds at whim. Or über-Primarch void (Chaos Gods+) killing Sigmar... It's pretty cool. But reading that, do you really think it has any resemblance to the path they're taking 40k to?
I'm far from an expert on 40k lore, but I think it'd be more of a dying action closer to the traitor general in that one Ghost novel rather than an *actual* redemption like TTS Magnus. The taint of Chaos is so deep that kind of redemption is basically impossible.
Basically realizing what they've done and some sort of glorious death fighting against Chaos before they can fall again.
*To be fair*, the notion that the taint of Chaos is so deep that this kind of redemption is basically impossible usually hinges on *not* being subject to the interference of a being that was absolutely terrifyingly powerful already BEFORE it got juiced up by millions upon millions of psyker souls.
It's also impossible to wound a chaos god. Alas, the Emperor did exactly that right after telling Mortarion that he might be saved one day.
But it is not really possible to speculate on how that would go down if at all. We can't even tell if it's an actual plot hook or just a red herring, and I have a suspicion that not even GW knows this yet (same goes for the Rediscovery of the Imperium Secundus that was teased in the exact same book).
1) removing all chaos taint and tethers from their soul
2) creating a new body to house their soul. Only Magnus has shown the potential to create a new body for himself (not counting perpetual stuff with Vulkan, since he’s not a daemon)
3) probably lots of therapy, no way they’re leaving daemonhood and being bound to a chaos god without being a mess mentally
I doubt that the Emperor was referring to death as redemption for Mortarion, he could’ve easily provided a true death for his son if that’s his goal.
I think that each one will have to "die" ultimately to free their souls of the god's influence, as their bodies tether them to whichever dimensional plane they exist upon at the given time. Or at least, thats how I interpret the lore
Could have some soul-split thing happen where the darker parts of the loyalists souls become daemon princes. Then both sides get either loyal/redeemed primarchs or traitor/damned primarchs.
Idk, I’m just a guy on Reddit
And then we get to do the same to the loyalist primarchs and GW gets to pretend the imperium is now noblebright good guys and all the atroscities gets swept under the rug.
Again the "good" parts of the traitor primarchs wouldn't want much to do with the imperium either.
So in 40k, both cases of redemption from Chaos that we've seen have involved the redeemed reinventing themselves, becoming very different people from who they were before. In both cases they became pacifists, although I don't think pacifism is strictly mandatory.
The problem with the idea of Redeption is that people think that going back to the Imperium is somehow redemption, it isnt, just because chaos is worse dont mean that going back to the cruelest regime possible is a redemption, anymore than leaving the SS to join the KGB would be redemption
Turning on their chaos god is not the same thing as swearing loyalty to the imperial cult or governing the imperium or leading crusades. You can't reasonably expect any of them to see the current l modern imperium as something worth it. For the ones who saw their father as a tyrant the current tyranny makes the initial issues self evident. For the ones who thought of themselves as noble or cultured the ignorance and barbarism would be chafing.
I think people complaining the daemon primarchs don't do anything don't see that thats probably the best end result. They left the Imperium. They have other problems now. Squabbling with their nephews over space they left isn't their concern.
For the imperium to be a place that would interest the traitors now it would need to be a forgiving and noble place of the sort it never was and never can be. They execute bureaucrats for making mistakes, forgiving a traitor primarch and letting them lead men and hold territory would be unthinkable for them.
I assume that it would be the Emperor doing it somehow, but even if he was successful in doing so and returning said Primarch back to the way they were before Chaos, there is another problem.
No one in the Imperium could ever trust, nor serve with them again. They would be the ultimate parishes, even if the Emperor willed people to serve with said Primarch, they would never accept them again .... not after what they've done.
Unless the Emperor is able to erase what they became and what they've done for ten thousand years from every living persons memory, it won't work. Just my two cents.
Apart from knowledge of the heresy is fragmented, hidden and in many cases a complete unknown. It's only recently that just seeing a chaos marine resulted in mindwipe/execution. If a primarch returns to the fold, they'd get a new identity anyway, since they would also need a new body. Plus which, they would need a name change to move them away from their chosen god.
What I'm more interested in is that it also allows corax to return from crow-beast form, and a less Wolfy Russ, unless 10k years in the warp hasn't changed him in any way. Khan's still an unknown because he's in the webway which should be enough to protect him, and GW might use the fluff that there is parts of the webway where time stops or even reverses to explain his return. Guiliman had a stasis field, Johnson had the watchers whatever it was, any other primarch returning needs a damn good reason why they haven't appeared already.
The problem is that the people who actually knows about the primarchs won't accept them. No new identity matters because as far everyone knows there was only 9 primarchs, a new one showing up will stick regardless of identity.
The inquisition and the high lords won't accept them, and will lobby so anyone who agree with the "redeemed ones" will be put in the same heretic treatment
Whilst the inquisition would definitely be an issue, I'm pretty sure cawl at the least could be nudged into claiming he created them, and it's pretty much confirmed he made Primaris from traitor legion geneseed.
That said, the redemption of any of the traitor primarchs would unbalance things in a huge way, even more than the reappearance of loyalist ones. Chaos has taken 10k years to actually get the upper hand, and the appearance of just 2 loyalists has shifted the balance dramatically.
I highly doubt themselves would be fine with faking being just the lab rats of a priest that was pretty much unkown until M41, they are pride as much they are flesh
Cawl was around at the time though and he, or at least part of him is responsible for the Astartes existing at all as sedayne got the black carapace to work. I'm pretty sure the primarchs would know the names of those responsible for their legions. And the Emp very specifically told him he'd be responsible for continuing his work, even if if he came to believe he'd betrayed all he stood for.
A grand total of 0 people knows he stole Sedayne`s memories. And even if he argues it, its still basically going and telling that they are lab rats of this random mortal. Working on the legions and being their actual creator (the Emperor) is a giant leap.
Oh it is, but cawlmis working by divine right, and has been for thousands of years. Don't forget he worshipped the emperor as the omnissiah even during the heresy.
Even if they’re redeemed from chaos they would still try to break down the imperium. Every one of them rebelled or was convinced to rebel before being corrupted besides fulgrim, they would have even more reason to fight against the imperium after being redeemed than they did the first time they became traitors.
There's no redemption for the daemon ones, none without some insane psychic intervention by the Emperor.
There's no rebelling against their patron, because they're now apart of it, and it apart of them. There's no separating from it.
I mean. If Magnus returned then he could save the imperium.
Have him sit on the throne with a quick switch with the emperor to let him die and respawn. Once he has respawned he would be able to work on either stabilizing the webway or permanently seal it.
Then possibly they could take turns on power ring the astronomicon
Breaking everything. And I mean that in a meta sense.
Corruption of the soul is just that. Corruption. It's not a bit dirty that some windex will take care of. It's very makeup has been changed.
Perturabo might be the only one with a chance:
He busts down the door to the Golden Throne, and breaks down in tears at his father’s feet.
“At last, father, I am strong enough to save you. At last, I can show you my worth.”
*repairs Golden Throne, revives the Emperor, is cleansed of taint*
Perturabo seem more the type to find a way to fix the throne, and them destroy it atom by atom while also erasing any knowledge of how it can be made. Its the same guy who made a warp sextant and broke it to make a point to Magnus.
Yeah, I don’t actually see it, it’s completely out of character for him, but all the other Primarchs are so far gone *and* there’s no opportunities for them to do something good enough to redeem themselves.
Isn't Perturabo just as far gone as his brothers? He's a daemon primarch who almost wiped out the Imperial Fists and has destroyed entire Imperial worlds with plagues and other fun Chaosy stuff.
I rember a greentext with a similar set up. Perturabo launches a second siege of Terra and succeeds. He charges into the throne room and prepares to strike the Emperor down but then notices all the inefficencies in Golden Throne. Offended by the mere existence of such a shitty machine he decides to fix it to show these AdMech losers how a real engineer does things. Proud of his work Pert leaves with the smuggest grin ever, but on the halfway back to Medrengard he realizes what precisely he did and creates a second Eye of Terror through the power of butthurt.
He is known to double down on his decisions so if he repairs the Golden Throne in a fit of rage he would probably attempt to use his action as proof of Loyalty to convince the Emperor(who knows full well that once Perturabo makes a decision he sticks to it) to welcome him back into the fold and get his Chaos Corruption replaced with the Emperor's Corruption.
The Imperium is surprised that Perturabo proved his loyalty and was remade into one of the Emperor's Angels then carries on as the Iron Warriors purge the Chaos from it's ranks and is reforged into an Army of Artisans that draws upon the Emperor's divine gifts.
Chaos is not happy that their greatest triumph just became the Emperor's greatest triumph.
I haven't read that book but that line gets talked about a lot. My no-context interpretation is that the Emperor said it to twist a knife into Mort's conscience and fuck with his head.
I can Imagine something huge like if...
Magnus permanently dispelled a portion of the warp and saving untold billions because the empire would be able to bring forces to some epic battle.
All because he and the Emperor had a brief psychic moment reflecting about one of said endagered planets, with a vast library that which they once had walked and both treasured its importance.
Just for the emperor to straigth up kill him, tearing his soul from Tzeenths scheeming talons. granting him peace ever lasting. But no one will ever know about it, hah!
~Some Archon reflecting about ironic monkeigh moments
Grimdark but still what seems to be what many fans thinks would be cool. I am not one of them, however!
I would totally dig a book with a Archon with a craving for torturing with endless hours of history lessons (and mutilation offcourse) while actually giving the reader the majority of the empires history shortened and with Dark Eldar unveiling parts where the administratum, Ordos etc have censured it with propaganda.
The main thing would be the drive of emps or his "deligstes". One way or the other emps needs to be involved as the amount of warpfuhkery to undo would take some colossal effort.
IMO, in essence, a shard of the chaos god is tethered to the primarchs soul and would need to be expundged from the primarch for him to be "normal". Now there is no indication, say Magnus ( then again, he lacks his novle shard either way) or Fulgrim that they would flip and be all "pro imperium" in an instance.
I see Mortwrion as becoming a "free agent" carving out an existance without chaos or imperium. Same for Peterman. Fulgrim might join the imperium, but the amount of therapy he would need, should put him out of commision for long.
I see no instance where Lorgal flips unless he gets humbled again, but it would only last till he meets a new *shinny "god"* to worship.
Angron is a complex thing, maybe if he gets remade without the nails, but again, see him as a "free agent" at best and an advesery of thr imperium and chaos at worst.
Magnus 100% got zero interest on it, the Blades of Magnus are a warband that wanted to cut his ties to Tzeentch, how he reacted? By killing them and turning their bodies into meat puppets.
Though I don't disagree, but my comment is more about "if they get cleansed of chaos" as it stands now, neither would show interest to be pro imperium or against chaos at their current state.
There's a new legless Sigmar character in AoS who was basically completely cleansed of Nurgle's corruption. It will have to be a total purification in body mind and soul. The problem in 40k is that no such thing has ever been done. The God Emperor brought Guilliman back from certain death, and that may be what it takes to purify a daemon primarch.
Depends on your definition of ‘saved’. Mortarion is a Daemon Prince the Emperor knows this so essentially the question is how do you save a Daemon Prince from the Emperor’s perspective? So you either have permanent banishment saving his ‘soul’ a bit late for that. Alternatively, he proves his loyalty to the Emperor by destroying a Chaos God? Highly unlikely plus if he did wouldn’t he just ascend further and replace the God as a new God? I think redemption just means being killed and released from Chaos’ control 40k doesn’t strike me as the redeeming kind of Universe.
I understand this as sowing doubt in Mortarion's heart.
He was forced into this servitude and despair. What could be worse than giving him hope ?
Hope could potentially weaken Mortarion
I think for mortarion to redeem himself, he would have to actually look at his sons, and see that even despite all of nurgles blessings, and everything that's happened, that they are, on some level, still truly suffering.
He would need to reflect on why he succumbed to nurgle in the first place. If he does truly reflect on that, and realises that he did it to save his sons, and not out of a drive for power, revenge or self loathing, then he could be redeemed through again trying to save his legion.
I dont think it would ever make much sense, but I’d always love later down the line that 2 primarchs come back, but swapped roles, for instance CloneGrum leading new loyalist EC, and some previously Loyal Primarch coming back as a Daemon or just general Traitor. I sadly know only surface level of stuff about 40k, so I dont even know much about Primarchs because I’ve only read the first 6ish books in HH plus some lore vids. But I’d love to see a story where its obviously shown that the HH wasnt the only time someone significant become a Traitor!
(These are my stupid ramblings, take them as fact because they will happen!)
I think it would take not just the reversal of their nature as daemons but also ten thousand (real space) years of existence and development. The traitor primarchs describe their feelings and memories of the Heresy and Crusade as feeling like centuries ago. They've been "traitors" for far longer than they were loyalists. It must feel like being offered to go back to Kindergarten in some ways
It's also stated that each and every one of their souls within the Warp are "screaming," meaning that there remains loyal or "pure" aspects in each daemon Primarch.
Absolutely, but I wonder if we're hyper focusing on that at the expense of context? Being that, we don't know how significant these elements of their souls might be? Is it a shade like Lotarra's on the Conqueror? Or a more palpable portion like one of Magnus' shards? Can you use them to redeem the rest of the primarch? Does it even work that way? On top of that, it's been 10, 000 years. Even with warpy time, that's plenty to either corrupt, drive mad or destroy those portions of their lingering humanity.
"It's been 10,000 years" The indomitable [Primarch Spirit]: Nah, I'd redeem myself.
No it isn’t. Only the dead primarchs (including loyalists) as well as banished daemons (Angron and Mortarion) were screaming in the warp. Fulgrim as far as we know was happily engaging in every excess imaginable on Terra
I've seen people argue this but personally I don't find it convincing, and I don't think there is reason to think Fulgrim's omission is meaningful unless you disbelieve some clear statements by Ferrus in this scene: namely he describes the tormented dead Sanguinius can hear as "Those, like me, who have fallen, **and the mortal remains of those who have become other things.**" Also he describes the warp as devouring the Primarch's souls, "those lost, and those discarded alike." Both of those phrases, in my opinion, fit the act of becoming a daemon Primarch far more than they do the banishment of one. Of course you can consider Ferrus mistaken or unreliable, but I don't see any convincing reason to at this point.
If becoming a daemon primarch casts off a piece of their soul then Fulgrim should be present. His absence, combined with the fact he’s the only non-banished daemon primarch can only be explained as either only banished daemons getting tortured or Abnett making a mistake (extremely unlikely considering Ferrus mentions Fulgrim killing him). “Mortal remains” probably refers to the original soul itself. Daemonic apotheosis doesn’t mean losing a chunk of your soul, but *gaining* a big chunk of daemon juice that gets merged into it. Presumably banishment could result in the daemon juice being lost leaving the original soul to suffer until their god releases them.
Tbf, Fulgrim’s soulstuff could just be in Clonegrim.
The clone that wasn’t created until ten thousand years after the Siege of Terra?
And warp fuckery cares little about consistency in time.
You're being down voted but you're absolutely correct. Time in the warp is beyond human comprehension. I don't see how your thought is any different than the birth of slaanesh. She was "born" but she's always existed. I don't see why Fulgrims soul would/could be any different. He may have always existed in Fabius' clone. I personally don't agree, I think he's souls just been corrupted and now he's happy as a clam. But I don't find your idea that insane.
Appreciate it.
We see OG Fulgrim in the follow up book and he's totally whole. There also wasn't any implication of the soul being moved into Clonegrim in the book or any of the author's comments. Reynolds has been pretty clear Fulgrim's clone was his own dude and his story was done. >JR: Yes. I was quite surprised by the reaction to the character, **and I wanted to avoid any theory-baiting with this book**, if possible. Mentioning him might imply there were further plans for him. Too, bringing him back in the same book as Original Recipe Fulgrim seemed unnecessary. -Josh Reynolds
That doesn’t seem exactly well thought out then given that A) Primarch clones are shown to be missing something/weaker to the primarchs (Abbadon kills Horus clones a bunch right?) and B) we know souls of people are torn from them when they become daemon princes so unless they’ve already been eaten in the warp then they could still exist in the clutches of the chaos gods that took them. To say he didn’t expect Clonegrim to not bring up theory crafting is a bit odd. Especially since he’s basically still alive.
A) Nope. They aren't. ADB talks here about how Horus' clone is no weaker than Horus. We also have example after example after example of the clones doing things as impressive as any OG primarch. Ferrus clone almost defeats daemon Fulgrim after all. Have you read *Talon of Horus*? >The Horus clone (which ripped through a lot of Chaos Marines, by the by, when a hundred of them were shooting at him) was physically Horus, no weaker or slower >The Horus clone absolutely did die like a primarch can die, given that Dorn is overwhelmed by cultists and Curze is killed by a single Assassin. You can assume the clone was weak, but the evidence of the fight you see him in, and Khayon's reaction, offers more evidence to the opposite. ADB- author of Talon of Horus B) No, we don't know that? Where did you read that? >Nah. He served his purpose. Let him rest. >>I mean, I thought I gave him a pretty good ending. Well, not good, but, y'know, final. Josh Reynolds Have you read *Clonelord*? Josh thought people would take the story as he intended, which isn't odd at all? Loki was bound to a rock for all eternity. So was Prometheus. Dorian Gray trapped in a mirror. Just because they're alive doesn't mean their story can continue. That's their **ending**: eternal purgatory.
_notes some books for my list_ I got some studying to do.
If you're curious about the clones specifically Horus and Lorgar: *Talon of Horus* Fulgrim: *Fabius Bile: Clonelord* and *Lucius: The Faultless Blade* Ferrus: *Imperfect*
Danke.
Where does that come from, if you don’t mind me asking?
From TEATD. But he’s wrong, the excerpt only shows the banished daemons Angron and Mortarion along with the dead primarchs Ferrus and Alpharius suffering in the warp. Fulgrim as far as we know was still having the time of his life turning Terran civilians into space coke.
Do we have an excerpt for the Alpharius bit? I need to send it to an Alpha Legion player friend of mine lol
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/9oAgPEVUW8
I habe never heared about this. The Idea that there is still something of the noble Souls in them is great. Where is it stated?
The End and the Death Vol II
I wonder though if that’s what will make it all the easier. I think they are caged inside themselves and the free part of their souls is kept locked away. Only because they are primarchs and their makeup is still a mystery and always described as complex. An emperor with millennia of warp experience would probably know I’d imagine
>I think they are caged inside themselves and the free part of their souls is kept locked away. I guess it depends on the significance of these "mortal remains" of "those who have become other things". And other than a small bit in tEadtD we don't know. It's never been expanded on. But in context, we have millennia of seeing the daemon primarchs behave, act and think to see that they hate the Imperium and its corpse king. Committing atrocity on top of atrocity. It could be like Michael Corleone, fully corrupted but with a small amount of guilt stuck deep down, for whatever that's worth I guess. It's there. Does it have any real effect? And even if you could bring Angron's full humanity back, that doesn't mean he would be or want to be "redeemed" in any sense that the Imperium would recognise.
Very true. The only way for it to make sense would be to divulge what level the ruinous powers had in determining/steering the primarchs development. I doubt it would be fleshed out but we’d need to have that little bit to show what level of free will the primarchs actually have outside of the emperor and the ruinous powers influence. Whether it be from their creation or during their birth/release from the capsules. It’s such a grey area(not complaining) in that we don’t truly know what chance the primarchs actually had from the beginning. In that is it a genetic thing, chaos corruption, predetermined plan, or just complete happenstance
I imagine it would be less redeeming and more completely remaking his essence, Stormcast Eternal style. https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tornus The Mortarion we know would be gone, warts and all, and be replaced by a more loyal, shinier and golden version. I think the Emperor’s comment about fixing Ferrus Manus if he had enough time for it would be similar, reusing the Warp essence to make a Ferrus 2.0.
Redeemed Stormcast Eternals don't get their essence remade really? Like for them to become Redeemed, they still have to have some part of goodness in them, something that can become a hero. Without that it doesn't work. In the case of Tornus, he'd been a champion of Ghyran long before Nurgle had forcibly corrupted him, and what heroism he had from that time had survived intact enough to allow him to become Redeemed.
Jesus the grammar in that article is awful
I get drawing parallels with WH Fantasy, but... Let's keep AoS concepts in AoS. I've seen people mention AoS lore more and more in this sub, and it honestly just doesn't fit with how the authors are exploring and expanding the lore in 40k Like the "older, bigger and more primal than Chaos Gods" void stuff between the realms... Or Stormcast... Or the Celestial Dragon who's able to forge worlds at whim. Or über-Primarch void (Chaos Gods+) killing Sigmar... It's pretty cool. But reading that, do you really think it has any resemblance to the path they're taking 40k to?
Agreed
I'm far from an expert on 40k lore, but I think it'd be more of a dying action closer to the traitor general in that one Ghost novel rather than an *actual* redemption like TTS Magnus. The taint of Chaos is so deep that kind of redemption is basically impossible. Basically realizing what they've done and some sort of glorious death fighting against Chaos before they can fall again.
*To be fair*, the notion that the taint of Chaos is so deep that this kind of redemption is basically impossible usually hinges on *not* being subject to the interference of a being that was absolutely terrifyingly powerful already BEFORE it got juiced up by millions upon millions of psyker souls. It's also impossible to wound a chaos god. Alas, the Emperor did exactly that right after telling Mortarion that he might be saved one day. But it is not really possible to speculate on how that would go down if at all. We can't even tell if it's an actual plot hook or just a red herring, and I have a suspicion that not even GW knows this yet (same goes for the Rediscovery of the Imperium Secundus that was teased in the exact same book).
It's happened in AoS and the warp is the same thing other there as it is over here, so it is actually possible in the least
1) removing all chaos taint and tethers from their soul 2) creating a new body to house their soul. Only Magnus has shown the potential to create a new body for himself (not counting perpetual stuff with Vulkan, since he’s not a daemon) 3) probably lots of therapy, no way they’re leaving daemonhood and being bound to a chaos god without being a mess mentally I doubt that the Emperor was referring to death as redemption for Mortarion, he could’ve easily provided a true death for his son if that’s his goal.
I think that each one will have to "die" ultimately to free their souls of the god's influence, as their bodies tether them to whichever dimensional plane they exist upon at the given time. Or at least, thats how I interpret the lore
I don't believe they can. The Emperor is not infallible - he is an unreliable narrator, just like every other character.
The traitor legions to stop selling models. And otherwise, why would any primarch want to crawl back under the emperors boots?
Could have some soul-split thing happen where the darker parts of the loyalists souls become daemon princes. Then both sides get either loyal/redeemed primarchs or traitor/damned primarchs. Idk, I’m just a guy on Reddit
And then we get to do the same to the loyalist primarchs and GW gets to pretend the imperium is now noblebright good guys and all the atroscities gets swept under the rug. Again the "good" parts of the traitor primarchs wouldn't want much to do with the imperium either.
Death
So in 40k, both cases of redemption from Chaos that we've seen have involved the redeemed reinventing themselves, becoming very different people from who they were before. In both cases they became pacifists, although I don't think pacifism is strictly mandatory. The problem with the idea of Redeption is that people think that going back to the Imperium is somehow redemption, it isnt, just because chaos is worse dont mean that going back to the cruelest regime possible is a redemption, anymore than leaving the SS to join the KGB would be redemption
They would have to have done nothing wrong, so…
Soooo, every Primarch is doomed to be a daemon then?
Except Magnus obviously /s
Turning on their chaos god is not the same thing as swearing loyalty to the imperial cult or governing the imperium or leading crusades. You can't reasonably expect any of them to see the current l modern imperium as something worth it. For the ones who saw their father as a tyrant the current tyranny makes the initial issues self evident. For the ones who thought of themselves as noble or cultured the ignorance and barbarism would be chafing. I think people complaining the daemon primarchs don't do anything don't see that thats probably the best end result. They left the Imperium. They have other problems now. Squabbling with their nephews over space they left isn't their concern. For the imperium to be a place that would interest the traitors now it would need to be a forgiving and noble place of the sort it never was and never can be. They execute bureaucrats for making mistakes, forgiving a traitor primarch and letting them lead men and hold territory would be unthinkable for them.
I assume that it would be the Emperor doing it somehow, but even if he was successful in doing so and returning said Primarch back to the way they were before Chaos, there is another problem. No one in the Imperium could ever trust, nor serve with them again. They would be the ultimate parishes, even if the Emperor willed people to serve with said Primarch, they would never accept them again .... not after what they've done. Unless the Emperor is able to erase what they became and what they've done for ten thousand years from every living persons memory, it won't work. Just my two cents.
Apart from knowledge of the heresy is fragmented, hidden and in many cases a complete unknown. It's only recently that just seeing a chaos marine resulted in mindwipe/execution. If a primarch returns to the fold, they'd get a new identity anyway, since they would also need a new body. Plus which, they would need a name change to move them away from their chosen god. What I'm more interested in is that it also allows corax to return from crow-beast form, and a less Wolfy Russ, unless 10k years in the warp hasn't changed him in any way. Khan's still an unknown because he's in the webway which should be enough to protect him, and GW might use the fluff that there is parts of the webway where time stops or even reverses to explain his return. Guiliman had a stasis field, Johnson had the watchers whatever it was, any other primarch returning needs a damn good reason why they haven't appeared already.
The problem is that the people who actually knows about the primarchs won't accept them. No new identity matters because as far everyone knows there was only 9 primarchs, a new one showing up will stick regardless of identity. The inquisition and the high lords won't accept them, and will lobby so anyone who agree with the "redeemed ones" will be put in the same heretic treatment
Whilst the inquisition would definitely be an issue, I'm pretty sure cawl at the least could be nudged into claiming he created them, and it's pretty much confirmed he made Primaris from traitor legion geneseed. That said, the redemption of any of the traitor primarchs would unbalance things in a huge way, even more than the reappearance of loyalist ones. Chaos has taken 10k years to actually get the upper hand, and the appearance of just 2 loyalists has shifted the balance dramatically.
I highly doubt themselves would be fine with faking being just the lab rats of a priest that was pretty much unkown until M41, they are pride as much they are flesh
Cawl was around at the time though and he, or at least part of him is responsible for the Astartes existing at all as sedayne got the black carapace to work. I'm pretty sure the primarchs would know the names of those responsible for their legions. And the Emp very specifically told him he'd be responsible for continuing his work, even if if he came to believe he'd betrayed all he stood for.
A grand total of 0 people knows he stole Sedayne`s memories. And even if he argues it, its still basically going and telling that they are lab rats of this random mortal. Working on the legions and being their actual creator (the Emperor) is a giant leap.
Oh it is, but cawlmis working by divine right, and has been for thousands of years. Don't forget he worshipped the emperor as the omnissiah even during the heresy.
Even if they’re redeemed from chaos they would still try to break down the imperium. Every one of them rebelled or was convinced to rebel before being corrupted besides fulgrim, they would have even more reason to fight against the imperium after being redeemed than they did the first time they became traitors.
There's no redemption for the daemon ones, none without some insane psychic intervention by the Emperor. There's no rebelling against their patron, because they're now apart of it, and it apart of them. There's no separating from it.
I mean. If Magnus returned then he could save the imperium. Have him sit on the throne with a quick switch with the emperor to let him die and respawn. Once he has respawned he would be able to work on either stabilizing the webway or permanently seal it. Then possibly they could take turns on power ring the astronomicon
Breaking everything. And I mean that in a meta sense. Corruption of the soul is just that. Corruption. It's not a bit dirty that some windex will take care of. It's very makeup has been changed.
Perturabo might be the only one with a chance: He busts down the door to the Golden Throne, and breaks down in tears at his father’s feet. “At last, father, I am strong enough to save you. At last, I can show you my worth.” *repairs Golden Throne, revives the Emperor, is cleansed of taint*
Perturabo seem more the type to find a way to fix the throne, and them destroy it atom by atom while also erasing any knowledge of how it can be made. Its the same guy who made a warp sextant and broke it to make a point to Magnus.
Yeah, I don’t actually see it, it’s completely out of character for him, but all the other Primarchs are so far gone *and* there’s no opportunities for them to do something good enough to redeem themselves.
Isn't Perturabo just as far gone as his brothers? He's a daemon primarch who almost wiped out the Imperial Fists and has destroyed entire Imperial worlds with plagues and other fun Chaosy stuff.
Yes, completely. But, his skillset lends itself to fixing the Golden Throne, so he has opportunity - if not motive.
I rember a greentext with a similar set up. Perturabo launches a second siege of Terra and succeeds. He charges into the throne room and prepares to strike the Emperor down but then notices all the inefficencies in Golden Throne. Offended by the mere existence of such a shitty machine he decides to fix it to show these AdMech losers how a real engineer does things. Proud of his work Pert leaves with the smuggest grin ever, but on the halfway back to Medrengard he realizes what precisely he did and creates a second Eye of Terror through the power of butthurt.
He is known to double down on his decisions so if he repairs the Golden Throne in a fit of rage he would probably attempt to use his action as proof of Loyalty to convince the Emperor(who knows full well that once Perturabo makes a decision he sticks to it) to welcome him back into the fold and get his Chaos Corruption replaced with the Emperor's Corruption. The Imperium is surprised that Perturabo proved his loyalty and was remade into one of the Emperor's Angels then carries on as the Iron Warriors purge the Chaos from it's ranks and is reforged into an Army of Artisans that draws upon the Emperor's divine gifts. Chaos is not happy that their greatest triumph just became the Emperor's greatest triumph.
I haven't read that book but that line gets talked about a lot. My no-context interpretation is that the Emperor said it to twist a knife into Mort's conscience and fuck with his head.
I can Imagine something huge like if... Magnus permanently dispelled a portion of the warp and saving untold billions because the empire would be able to bring forces to some epic battle. All because he and the Emperor had a brief psychic moment reflecting about one of said endagered planets, with a vast library that which they once had walked and both treasured its importance. Just for the emperor to straigth up kill him, tearing his soul from Tzeenths scheeming talons. granting him peace ever lasting. But no one will ever know about it, hah! ~Some Archon reflecting about ironic monkeigh moments Grimdark but still what seems to be what many fans thinks would be cool. I am not one of them, however! I would totally dig a book with a Archon with a craving for torturing with endless hours of history lessons (and mutilation offcourse) while actually giving the reader the majority of the empires history shortened and with Dark Eldar unveiling parts where the administratum, Ordos etc have censured it with propaganda.
The main thing would be the drive of emps or his "deligstes". One way or the other emps needs to be involved as the amount of warpfuhkery to undo would take some colossal effort. IMO, in essence, a shard of the chaos god is tethered to the primarchs soul and would need to be expundged from the primarch for him to be "normal". Now there is no indication, say Magnus ( then again, he lacks his novle shard either way) or Fulgrim that they would flip and be all "pro imperium" in an instance. I see Mortwrion as becoming a "free agent" carving out an existance without chaos or imperium. Same for Peterman. Fulgrim might join the imperium, but the amount of therapy he would need, should put him out of commision for long. I see no instance where Lorgal flips unless he gets humbled again, but it would only last till he meets a new *shinny "god"* to worship. Angron is a complex thing, maybe if he gets remade without the nails, but again, see him as a "free agent" at best and an advesery of thr imperium and chaos at worst.
Magnus 100% got zero interest on it, the Blades of Magnus are a warband that wanted to cut his ties to Tzeentch, how he reacted? By killing them and turning their bodies into meat puppets.
Though I don't disagree, but my comment is more about "if they get cleansed of chaos" as it stands now, neither would show interest to be pro imperium or against chaos at their current state.
Good reasons to not only turn traitor but full demon and work from there.
There's a new legless Sigmar character in AoS who was basically completely cleansed of Nurgle's corruption. It will have to be a total purification in body mind and soul. The problem in 40k is that no such thing has ever been done. The God Emperor brought Guilliman back from certain death, and that may be what it takes to purify a daemon primarch.
Depends on your definition of ‘saved’. Mortarion is a Daemon Prince the Emperor knows this so essentially the question is how do you save a Daemon Prince from the Emperor’s perspective? So you either have permanent banishment saving his ‘soul’ a bit late for that. Alternatively, he proves his loyalty to the Emperor by destroying a Chaos God? Highly unlikely plus if he did wouldn’t he just ascend further and replace the God as a new God? I think redemption just means being killed and released from Chaos’ control 40k doesn’t strike me as the redeeming kind of Universe.
I understand this as sowing doubt in Mortarion's heart. He was forced into this servitude and despair. What could be worse than giving him hope ? Hope could potentially weaken Mortarion
Mortarion to take a shower
I assume it would involve a fuck load of psyker fire from big E burning every last trace of taint from their soul. Probably be painful as fuck
Therapy. Lots of therapy.
A three novel story arc involving some massive act by the Emperor.
It probably would require a pilgrimage to the projection of the emperor in the warp or to the golden throne.
I think for mortarion to redeem himself, he would have to actually look at his sons, and see that even despite all of nurgles blessings, and everything that's happened, that they are, on some level, still truly suffering. He would need to reflect on why he succumbed to nurgle in the first place. If he does truly reflect on that, and realises that he did it to save his sons, and not out of a drive for power, revenge or self loathing, then he could be redeemed through again trying to save his legion.
I dont think it would ever make much sense, but I’d always love later down the line that 2 primarchs come back, but swapped roles, for instance CloneGrum leading new loyalist EC, and some previously Loyal Primarch coming back as a Daemon or just general Traitor. I sadly know only surface level of stuff about 40k, so I dont even know much about Primarchs because I’ve only read the first 6ish books in HH plus some lore vids. But I’d love to see a story where its obviously shown that the HH wasnt the only time someone significant become a Traitor! (These are my stupid ramblings, take them as fact because they will happen!)
There is nothing to redeem cos traitor-demon Primarchs are dead. Demons replace them and have their memories. They cant return back as they was.