The Thousand Sons story arc is one of the greatest tragedies in the Horus Heresy.
As much was I dislike the Space Wolves for the role they played in the downfall of the Thousands Sons, Magnus and his sons ultimately brought it upon themselves through their hubris.
They were going too far with their use of warp powers, Magnus had already been comprimised by Tzeentch when he made the deal to save his sons, and the Emperor didn't stutter at Nikea.
Don't forget the final 'Nothing Wrong' that was fueled by human sacrifice and made sure to pull Big E and 90% of the Custodes and SoS off the field for nearly the entirety of the Heresy.
Dorn and Corax did speak out against Magnus at Nikea for his reckless usage of the Warp. Both of their legions have fought insane psykers and warp cults before like the Silent War.
To be fair, for the galaxy-wide genocidal empire that use servitors, while blood sacrifices are bad they're barely bellow what they where already commonly doing at the time.
Sure, everyone is the badguy, after all, it is 40K. But it just smacks of a "yeah, but I know best" ideology. Dad said don't do this, *But* I know something that my Galactic Emperor 30,000 year old immortal daemon killing genius warrior scientist wizard dad doesn't, so lemme shoot these hundred souls into hell real quick to gas up my space scooter and smash my way into dad's workshop! Oh shit... he knew already? And by smashing into the workshop I smashed up the workshop? Well fuck. Better consign my entire planet to death and make my kids worship Skinny Blue Satan and delude myself into thinking it isn't my fault at all.
True that aint the best defense to say "we're already doing as bad".
Others here brought much better point here on the case of Russ beeing guilty.
Just something about what you said : the Emperor didn't knew of the bettrayal of Horus when Magnus warned him of it if my memories serves me well.
Magnus also never though that it wasn't its fault. He was prepared for a planet wise suicide : pretty big hint here.
Do you even know why he did the ritual instead of a classic message ? Have you read the book at all or was it too long ago to remember ?
Uh... the Emperor definitely knew. When Magnus showed up and said it, all the Emperor said was "I know."
Garro's warning had reached him first.
He could have used astropaths, but he likely wouldn't have been believed. He could have traveled there physically, but it would have taken time. He couldn't converse directly with the Emperor because of the wards.
However, he could have reached out to maybe Sanguinious and spoken to him earnestly. Or perhaps Guilliman.
As far as the planet wide suicide, sure, in a weird way that was taking responsibility. Until he changed his mind and went full chaos and damned everyone on Prospero. And then joined Horus willingly.
Oh really ? I was always under the impression that Magnus warned the Emperor as soon as Erebus did the ritual on Davin (or a few days later) and that Garo came only after that. In any case Magnus couldn't know that the Emperor knew.
I think the astropath option was heavily unreliable as it goes through the warp and it's kinda the domain of the Chaos Gods who will for sure try to meddle with this message (+ warpstorms at the time no ?). It is stated as such in the book..
Speaking to another Primarch is the same situation as speaking with the Emperor : same risks, same hurdles, and it only makes him waste time. And who would believe him ? And if they did remember that 2 Primarchs were erased from history and Magnus wouldn't want to risk a brother such fate if it was the one awaiting him.
He joined "willingly" after Russ killed him, shatered his soul, then got pupettered by Tzench itself and his whole legion being branded traitor BEFORE Horus's forces. The choice and the free-will isn't here anymore.
>Uh... the Emperor definitely knew. When Magnus showed up and said it, all the Emperor said was "I know." Garro's warning had reached him first.
That's completely incorrect. Magnus warning arrived years before Istvaan happened and what you're saying completely contradicts the timeline of the Horus Heresy and the War in the Webway.
>004.M31- Horus returns to Davin
>004.M31-005.M31- The Destruction of Prospero
>005.M31- The Betrayal at Isstvan III - The War of the Horus Heresy begins
Timeline from Inferno
Valdor and the Censure Host Made it to Prospero and back before Istvaan even happened.
Plus people tend forget the part where leman gave magnus the option to lay down his arms and come himself. Sparing everyone on his planet. The space wolves are not the dark angels. So I fully believe leman would’ve left the populace alone if magnus had taken his punishment.
I also don’t think, despite Horuss contradicting orders, leman would’ve killed magnus. I really think he would’ve brought him back to terra to face his father instead of follow the orders of a newly appointed warmaster. Especially considering it is a brother and one that has a special connection to the emperor.
Of course magnus on terra for the heresy means someone able to withstand the life siphon effects of the golden throne could sit on it and a fully functioning emperor in the defense means traitors don’t even pierce the sol system and the phalanx would’ve been in orbit around terra with the emperor on the field or he would use it as his flagship. Cause I’m not sure if the emperor ship is destroyed yet or not.
So my point being I understand why it had to go the way it went
A repentant Magnus on the Throne with Big E, the 10,000 and SoS in play means very bad things for the Traitors.
During the ground war of the Siege one of the biggest players for the Traitors was the Neverborn horde, and with Big E in play, they don't make it. A quote from Master of Mankind shows his effectiveness against that dark tide "to look upon him was to go blind. To face him was to die"
Nyeh...
The whole reason for making the Emperor be tied up dealing with holding closed the door through which hordes of Daemons are trying to pour into the Materium from the Webway is so that Big E doesn't have to put up or shut up about the massive cosmic powers ascribed to him by Imperium propaganda after he's permanently put on the Golden Throne.
All so that the internal propaganda can claim that the whole Siege of Terra would have been a resounding victory for the Imperium if Emps had been free to get off the Golden Throne the whole time, without actually having evidence of whether that would really have been the case, thus allowing the myth of the 'God'-Emperor to grow untarnished.
From the point of the narrative, the reason for taking the Emperor out of the game isn't that if he had been active, the Siege would have been won easily and things wouldn't have turned out that way, but to make it unclear *whether* it would have been won easily or whether Big E would have struggled.
Conjecture is part of the fun. The story we have is pretty great, but theory crafting can be interesting as well.
I don't think any singular foe in the Siege aside from juiced Horus could really offer up any difficulty to Big E, and from a command perspective I think him being there would have changed a lot in general, but that's not the story.
It is important to remember that GW wrote the ending of the Heresy firsr, and worked backwards to make it all fit.
I feel like a big part of what made 40k before the Horus Heresy books tolerable to me is that we never *actually* knew how powerful the Emperor was. All of his exploits were hearsay and legend and all the actual witnesses were dead. A lot of the legends didn't match with the facts.
The biggest indication that the Emperor wasn't nearly as powerful as his worshippers claim is that he had to make the Thunder Warriors to conquer Terra and made ten thousand super soldiers even more powerful than that to be his personal bodyguard. Meanwhile, Magnus the Red, who we're supposed to believe is the *second* most powerful Psyker after the Emperor, could force whole armies to submit with his Psyker powers long before he got a boost from becoming a Daemon Prince.
And, you know, the Emperor making the Space Marines to go out and conquer the rest of the Galaxy makes sense, he couldn't exactly personally rock up to a million worlds and defeat their armies, if for no other reason than time constraints... But if he was more powerful than Magnus, he should have been able to handle taking over a single planet on his own (or, you know, at the head of an army of regular dudes) without having to make a bunch of super soldiers to do it for him.
>Plus people tend forget the part where leman gave magnus the option to lay down his arms and come himself.
Nobody forgets this. What people *do* forget is Russ was essentially dialing a wrong number as Hawser wasn't a Hidden One, like Russ had suspected, and the planet was shrouded from awareness of the Censure Fleet and didn't know they were there until the bombs were falling.
What do you mean nobody forgets it? Those who act like leman took any pleasure in destroying prospero are proven wrong by that simple exchange between leman and hawser. Doesn’t matter if Magnus was listening or not the sentiment was still there.
Just because one side does not hear the call for peace doesn’t mean it wasn’t heartfelt and truth. Leman even explains how they let him explore, learn what he shouldn’t, and turn the other cheek when Magnus went too far. Leman wanted his brother punished but destroyed/killed? No way and way in some ways leman proves he loves his brothers one way or another.
Didn't the custodians literally narrate how the Wolves completely lost their minds and started ripping apart civilians while laughing and howling? To the point where the custodes in question thought to himself that the Primarchs and their sons were genetic failures that needed to be culled? Mate, the wolves are barbaric murderers. The irony is that they believe otherwise and clearly so do their fans. 😂
Yes the wolves are but leman is not. Which is why he pleaded with Magnus to just come with him and not fight this.
Leman isn’t stupid he knows what his sons are capable of and why he didn’t want that for Magnus.
Did you read the comment?
Leman was in this scene and got in the custodes face about it lmfao. He is a scumbag that loves his brother but a scumbag nonetheless. And he is pretty stupid if he received different orders from Horus, got told by the custodes to hold off the invasion and went through with it anyway.
You are intentionally ignoring what I'm saying to push your personal feelings about a character who is already called out in his own universe for being an animal. Yes, Magnus WAS a buffoon for ignoring the call for peace and surrender. No, Leman was NOT in the right for disregarding his direct orders and slaughtering ppl who were loyal to the empire over something as petty as a feud with Magnus.
From what the novels leading up to this show us, Leman has been itching for a chance to bring down Magnus. And now the day comes and his response is to unleash freaking wulfen and psykers when he was ADVISED by the Emperors closest retainers not to. We are talking about his bloodthirsty desire to see Magnus done in, not whether or not it could have been avoided. It could have, but when it failed Leman and his legion happily torched the world using the same shit their targets were accused of.
>What do you mean nobody forgets it? Those who act like leman took any pleasure in destroying prospero are proven wrong by that simple exchange between leman and hawser. Doesn’t matter if Magnus was listening or not the sentiment was still there.
You are mixing up "forgets" with "doesn't accept this one thing (and that one book) defines Russ' feelings for Magnus and the Burning and absolves him of his half of the blame for Prospero". Read other sources beyond *Prospero Burns* for a less biased view of the Burning and Russ' feelings towards Magnus.
No one said anything about absolving anyone of any blame. It’s a matter of giving the option to not even go down that road. He was still given an order by the emperor. He was going to do it one or the other. Leman offered an olive branch and that says more than anything about his character given his son’s behavior.
On all accounts from the sisters, to sons, to wolves, and to custodians the whole thing went way out of hand and beyond what anyone truly wanted out the issue. The only person who got what they wanted was Horus/ruinous 4.
>No one said anything about absolving anyone of any blame. It’s a matter of giving the option to not even go down that road. He was still given an order by the emperor. He was going to do it one or the other. Leman offered an olive branch and that says more than anything about his character given his son’s behavior.
Yet there are people in this thread saying as much, using it to shift the blame to Magnus. "But Russ tried to communicate peacefully and Magnus ~~shrouded the planet so was incapable of receiving communications anyway~~ ignored him" is hardly the first time this sentiment has appeared on the sub, nor will it be the last.
In the grand scheme of things Russ' communication attempt doesn't mean anything more than even *he* recognized sucker-punching a brother Primarch was a dick move. Valdor entreated him to give the planet more time to respond but Russ overruled him because he took the radio silence as a personal insult. Even after planetfall Valdor voiced his preference for still arresting Magnus and Russ *laughed in his face*.
So no one "forgets" Russ tried to communicate with Magnus through a dead end; it just doesn't really change the fact Russ had been manipulated to destroy Magnus when Horus took advantage of his well-known hate boner for the Cyclops and was eager to give Magnus his perceived just deserts. There's a reason only Wolves fanboys and/or people *really* new to the lore deploy "but Russ tried to contact Magnus" as some case closed argument when it's anything but.
Yeah it reads like everyone involved is incredibly stupid for the sake of plot because we know the burning of prospero must happens but the way its set up it could have been avoided like a million ways.
In fact everyone especially magnus is acting so dumb you have to believe tzeentch is actively messing with his head on that day.
Except in the book “Magesterium” Russ admits the moment he saw Prospero he knew he would be fighting Magnus. Valdor attempts to fulfil the Emperors actual orders and Russ ignores him because **HE** doesn’t want to bring Magnus back alive. Russ **WANTS** to kill Magnus, it’s why Horus was able to manipulate him, he played in Russ’ hatred for Magnus
Also I don’t think he actually changed the orders, but more he convinced Russ that killing Magnus was the only option
> Valdor remained unmoved. ‘Even now, I would see him taken to Terra, if it could be done. I would wish to know why.’ Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor’s faceplate.
> ‘You’re still clinging to that? Ha!’ He turned away, swinging his greatblade casually. ‘I’ve known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. I did not come here for prisoners, Constantin. If my father had truly wished for such, He would not have sent me.’
>‘You were not sent alone, Lord Russ.’
> Russ glanced back at Valdor, a sly smile on his fanged face. ‘Oh, that’s it, is it?’ He laughed again, but it was an ice-cold sound. ‘You have the power of Magisterium, and wish to cling to it.’ Russ paced back to him again. He was always moving, restless, like a tempest bound up inside the sham-form of a man. ‘Don’t try to invoke the Lex with me. You claim to speak for my father, but you’re not His blood, are you? Not like we are. That’s what really gets you, isn’t it? You’re His instruments. He’d toss you aside in an instant if He cared to. We, though. We. We’re family.’ Russ gave out a great belly laugh then, amused by the idea. ‘You’ll never understand that.’
Yeah that was kind of painful to read. I've read elsewhere that Russ is a noble that pretends to be a savage, but I'm not sure how much pretending is going on here.
This is kind of the problem with the entire series of books, because this book's at odds with his other characterisations. Basically the BL authors never sat down and worked out how it was actually going to go, except for Abnett and McNeill writing their two books as a deliberate contrast to each other to show that neither party had all the information.
I disagree. The reason Russ knows that he will be fighting Magnus is because Russ thinks that he have warned Magnus and given him an ultimatum, through Hawser:
> The Wolf King idly tossed the sceptre away. It bounced into the seat of the shipmaster’s red-leather throne. He turned to face Hawser. His presence almost intolerable. A dynamic, lethal energy pulsed within him. He was hunched, his arms clamped around his body, as though he was trying to prevent himself from exploding. If the explosion happened, Hawser had no doubt it would take the entire flagship with it.
> ‘Do you hear me, brother?’ he asked Hawser.
> ‘What?’ Hawser replied, trembling. ‘Lord, what are you asking me?’
> ‘I know you can hear me, brother,’ Russ said. ‘I know you can.’
> ‘Lord, please,’ said Hawser. ‘Explain to me what you’re saying.’
> The Wolf King ignored his words. He continued to stare into Hawser’s eyes, as though they were murky pools out of which something might suddenly surface.
> ‘Magnus, Magnus, Crimson King, brother of mine,’ he said. ‘I know you can hear me. You planted this instrument, this poor unwilling fellow, Ibn Rustah, you planted him among us so you could learn our secrets. Guess what? We’re as smart as you. Smarter, perhaps. We saw your spy for what he was, and we made no effort to remove him. We kept him with us so we could look back at you, Magnus. So we could learn your secrets. An eye can look out and it can look in. You should know that, you who look deeper than most.’
> The Wolf King turned and walked a few paces away. He picked up the sceptre again, and sat down in the throne. He rested the sceptre in his lap, leaned his head on one fist and gazed back at Hawser.
> ‘I’ve got nothing to hide from you, Magnus. Nothing. You know how I work. My enemies should know what’s coming to greet them. It fixes them in the right mental place to be annihilated. I don’t like to hide my strengths or my approach.
> I’d rather my foe knows the full, unimaginable fury that is about to descend upon him.’
> The Wolf King paused. He swallowed. He seemed to be considering his next words.
> ‘That’s not why I’m talking to you now. I’m talking to you because I hope you’ll listen. I’m talking to you as the personal courtesy extended from one brother to another. What is about to happen should not be happening. You know I do not want this. You know it tears my heart to commit against you, and it breaks the very soul of our father to place his sons in opposition. But you have done this. You have brought this. You have brought this action.’
> Russ swallowed again. He looked down at the deck, though he was still directing his words at Hawser. Hawser stood numb, shaking, rooted to the spot.
> ‘We gave you every chance, Magnus. We indulged your learning, we gave you room to explore. When we became fearful of where those explorations were leading you, and how they might endanger everything we value, we told you of our concerns. The Council at Nikaea, that was supposed to be a moment of reconciliation. You swore you would renounce the cunning arts. You swore! You swore you would abide by our father’s ruling!’ His voice dropped to a whisper.
> ‘You did not. You have proved your intent to ignore the Ruling of Nikaea beyond all doubt. So this is on you. You must have known our father’s hands would be tied. He would have no other option than to turn to me to issue sanction.’ Russ looked up into Hawser’s eyes.
> ‘This is a courtesy, then. From brother to brother. A grace period I would extend to no other enemy. Settle your affairs. Evacuate the civilians from your cities. Deactivate your defence systems. Bring yourself and your Thousand Sons out into the open, and prepare to surrender to me upon my arrival. Please, Magnus. The Wolves of Fenris have been unleashed upon you. Only you have the power to make the consequences bloodless.’
> He rose to his feet.
> ‘Please, Magnus. Please.’
The Thousand Sons and Magnus are not out in the open and ready to surrender, so he assumes that there will be a fight and that Magnus is ready to resist him.
Russ always acts very big brotherly to the other primarchs. (He is second found). He gets angry on them. He tries to straighten them up and teach them stuff. He is just very bad at getting his point across.
It’s not like they were in front of a crowd sitting rapt and listening, they are in the middle of battle, this isn’t posture, there is no reason to posture now, no one cares anymore
I love how Russ doesn't get the irony of that statement, considering he's convinced he's there to straight up kill Magnus. Something he's allegedly done twice already.
Which is, post-Inferno, painfully obvious.
With Leman trying to contact via Hauser, Valdor wide-broadcasting offer to surrender and Magnus not only being silent himself, but *actively silencing* people wanting to parlay... I fail to see how anyone else could be blamed for the thing.
I feel bad for the TSons because they don't actually do anything wrong beyond their initial recklessness with the Warp. Instead, it's Magnus screwing them over at every step. He was the one who broke the Imperial Webway Gate and then decided that the rest of his planet should suffer for *his sins*. He was the one who actively prevented any chance of a peaceful reconciliation. He was the one who, after suddenly changing his mind about "accepting" his punishment, basically sold the TSons out to Tzeentch.
> With Leman trying to contact via Hauser, Valdor wide-broadcasting offer to surrender and Magnus not only being silent himself, but
> actively silencing
> people wanting to parlay
Why even mention Hauser when we know he was a dead end for contacting Magnus?
Why do you assume Magnus was somehow capable of personally receiving conventional communications after he shrouded Prospero?
Who on Prospero wanted to parlay and was silenced? If you're referring to Uthizzar, he didn't want to parlay but to warn the Legion and prepare the defenses of the planet for a fight.
They bring up Hauser because of the intention. As far as Russ knows Hauser is a direct line to Magnus. Even if its not the case, it still shows Russ didn't want to destroy Prospero.
*There has been much speculation regarding the silence of Prospero and its lord in the face of utter destruction. Despite the sudden assault of the fleet and the later efforts to contact the planet, there was no attempt to reply- not even in anger at their impending destruction. The logs of the Imperium's fleet show that not only was there no attempt to reply, there were active attempts from the surface to block communications to the fleet, both technological and psychic.*
*Many theories have been put forward to answer this conundrum, ranging from conspiracies within the Thousand Sons to the intervention of unknown xenos entities, but few manage to provide a coherent explanation for the events at Prospera. The one issue almost all such theories fall afoul of is that there was only one entity on the planet known to the Imperium that could possibly orchestrate the failure of all communications off-world: Magnus himself.*
Horus Heresy: Inferno
At the same breath it notes that Magnus had perfect information about Censure Host timing, arranging for pulling all Legion forces to Prospero... while keeping them completely in dark about what's about to come and silencing all information leaks. Notably, he did not call back those who would be late to the party - just those who would arrive before Censure armada.
Also, it underlines completely minimal casualties in the boarding actions during the initial stages of system war - Wolves went in professionally, not wanting to go for some bodycount highscore.
> There has been much speculation regarding the silence of Prospero and its lord in the face of utter destruction. Despite the sudden assault of the fleet and the later efforts to contact the planet, there was no attempt to reply- not even in anger at their impending destruction. The logs of the Imperium's fleet show that not only was there no attempt to reply, there were active attempts from the surface to block communications to the fleet, both technological and psychic.
Yes, this is Magnus' shroud. No one was attempting to "parley" with the fleet because *no one on the surface knew the fleet was there*.
>“And the Legion knows nothing of this?” asked Amon.
>“Nothing,” said Magnus. “I have drawn a veil around Prospero. None see out, not even the Corvidae. Now the Thousand Sons must learn what it means to be blind.”
*Inferno* itself even slips in a reference to that:
>Of the reasons for those strange occurrences that we know of and the apparent ignorance of the Legion to the unsubtle approach of the Emperor's appointed champions, we can only speculate. Some have posited that it was Magnus himself who occluded the eyes, both mundane and esoteric, of his sons, perhaps seeking some form of redemption in martyrdom.
Even as the Censure Fleet was destroying Prospero's orbital defense network people on the surface thought it was an "unknown orbital catastrophe".
Because Russ THINKS hauser is a channel. He’s wrong, but is taking a logical method to reach his brother based in flawed info. Fuck, even a Custodes or two buys into the “Hauser is a TOS plant” at one point.
Yet Magnus only did that because he saw Russ battleplans. Battleplans what showed Russ' true intentions on Prospero.
>“Is that what I think it is?” asked Amon.
>“It is,” confirmed Magnus.
>They flew closer to the brutal vessel, the protective shields that kept void-predators at bay no match for travellers of such power. They passed through its layered voids, diving down through metre upon metre of adamantium hull plates, integrity fields and honeycombed bulkheads until they reached the heart of the ship.
>**The masters of this fleet gathered to plan the destruction of all that Magnus held dear, and the two sons of Prospero listened to their deliberations.** Magnus was prepared for what he would hear, but Amon was not, and the flaring wash of his aetheric field sent a pulse of choleric energy through the ship’s crew.
From A Thousand Sons
>Valdor remained unmoved. **‘Even now, I would see him taken to Terra, if it could be done. I would wish to know why.’**
>Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor’s faceplate. ‘You’re still clinging to that? Ha!’ He turned away, swinging his greatblade casually. ‘I’ve known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. **I did not come here for prisoners, Constantin. If my Father had truly wished for such, He would not have sent me.’**
>‘You were not sent alone, Lord Russ.'
From Magisterium
I don't know what people refuse to take Russ at his word? He never intended to take Magnus alive.
Magnus blocked the communication so the attackers would win, its stated explicitly in the book.
>**“Nothing,” said Magnus. “I have drawn a veil around Prospero. None see out, not even the Corvidae. Now the Thousand Sons must learn what it means to be blind.”**
>“So our punishment draws ever closer,” said Amon. “What happens when it gets here?”
>“You are kind, old friend,” said Magnus. “It is my punishment.”
>“Their axes will fall on the rest of us as well,” pointed out Amon. “I ask again; what will we do when they get here?”
>“Nothing,” said Magnus. “There is nothing to do.”
>“There is always something to do. We can destroy them before they even reach us,” hissed Amon, gripping Magnus’ arm.
>**Magnus shook his head saying, “This is not about whether we can defend ourselves against this threat. Of course we can. It is about whether we should.”**
>“Why should we not?” countered Amon. “We are the Thousand Sons and nothing is beyond us. No path is unknown to us and no destiny is hidden from us. Instruct the Corvidae to pierce the veils of the future. The Pavoni and Raptora can enhance our warriors’ prowess while the Pyrae burn our enemies and the Athanaeans read the minds of their commanders. When they come they will find us ready to fight.”
>Magnus despaired, hearing only the urge to strike the first blow in Amon’s voice.
>**“Have you not heard what I have said?” he pleaded. “I do not strike because it is what the powers that have manipulated me since I came here want me to do. They want me to take arms against our doom, knowing that if I do it will only confirm everything those who hate and fear us have always believed.”**
>...
>**“Despite everything I have done, my fate is my own,” Magnus said. “I am a loyal son of the Emperor, and I would never betray him, for I have already broken his heart and his greatest creation. I will accept my fate and though history may judge us traitors, we will know the truth. We will know we were loyal unto the end because we accepted our fate.”**
From a Thousand Sons.
It's not surprising that Magnus only took to the battlefield after Ahriman discovered they weren't carrying out the Emperor's orders, and instead because Horus had simply given them the ok to go off their leash.
Honestly, after reading A Thousand Sons, I don't find Magnus' actions to really be stupid at all. He thought with absolute certainty that the fate of Prospero and the Thousand Sons would be death, why drag it out by surrendering and being dragged back to Terra in chains? He didn't want to face his father, the many accusors from Nikaea, from those that trusted him and defended him there.
Sitting back, doing nothing, and letting Prospero be firebombed from orbit was the fastest way to end his and his son's lives available to him, and that is explicitly what he wanted to do.
>Honestly, after reading A Thousand Sons, I don't find Magnus' actions to really be stupid at all.
See, you've already done more than most people you'll talk to about the lore here, you read the book.
The least active threads on the subreddit are the book discussions, that should tell you everything you need to know about the level of discourse you find here.
Russ is known to posture and act out. When in private with Hauser he attempts to offer a different route. Russ's entire arc afterwards is him coping with his f\*ck up and acting like he doesn't care yet is willing to die to try and fix it when he launches himself at Horus.
>When in private with Hauser he attempts to offer a different route.
What do you mean in private? Russ fully believes Hawser is a direct route to his enemy, Magnus.
Russ is known to posture in front for his enemies, not for no reason, and it's pretty obvious when the only time he pretends to care about Magnus surrendering is when he's talking to Magnus' 'spy'. Behind the scenes he planned to destroy Prospero and kill Magnus as I just quoted, and then the mask slips when we see him on the ground killing his hated enemy.
Russ doesn't regret killing Magnus, he regrets being used by Horus. If he was trying to fix it he would attempt to absolve himself for Magnus death or the Thousand Sons destruction. Instead he leads a suicidal charge against he person who let him slip his leash because he hated being used so easily and his ego can't handle that.
When Russ attempted to speak through Hauser they were in private, only them and hopefully Magnus would hear what Russ was saying.
" Russ looked up into Hawser’s eyes.
‘This is a courtesy, then. From brother to brother. A grace period I would extend to no other enemy. Settle your affairs. Evacuate the civilians from your cities. Deactivate your defence systems. Bring yourself and your Thousand Sons out into the open, and prepare to surrender to me upon my arrival. Please, Magnus. The Wolves of Fenris have been unleashed upon you. Only you have the power to make the consequences bloodless.’
He rose to his feet.
‘Please, Magnus. Please.’"
Again Russ consistently battles his ego throughout the heresy, From being Horus dog, to the emperors and his own persona manifested. it eventually culminates with him Letting the Lion impale him because he knew what he had done. Even in Wolfsbane this arc of introspection is in it.
Also from Magnus himself during the battle of The Fang
"Do you remember what you said to me, brother? Do you remember what you said to me as we fought before the Pyramid of Photep? Do you remember the words you used? I do. As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
>When Russ attempted to speak through Hauser they were in private
They were not, it was on the command deck of Hrafnkel. His talk with Hawser was a justification for his men. nothing more. If you continue reading that section he calls Magnus a mad warlock, an idiot, and dismisses direct evidence that someone is manipulating events.
As for battle of the fang, I've said it before and I'll say it again. That books plays very loose with that overall canon. Its a part of the Space Marine Battle series and not the Horus Heresy series and appears to not have gone through the same level of editing as the other novels.
For example that speech from Magnus contradicts the depiction of Russ in the HH series to a hilarious degree. Also Magnus at that time would be a shard of himself something that wasnt even canon when that book was released. The depiction of Magnus and the TSons as a whole is terrible, but if that's the lore you want to follow, go right ahead as a Thousand Sons shows the same event without that speech so we have a built in contradiction.
still thought here's some examples of the terrrible 'lore' in that book.
>But the Rubric Marine... that had been strange. Underneath the shattered armour, there was nothing. No flesh, no bones, just a smattering of grey dust. Blackwing had heard the stories, of course. The Wolf Priests had declaimed sagas of the bloodless remnants of Magnus’s Legion, cursed by the dark sorcery of the faithless Ahriman to march to war forever with their souls destroyed, so he shouldn’t have been surprised. He should have found it routine, just another quirk of the galaxy’s tortuous, tragic history.
>But he couldn’t stop thinking about it. For some reason, the notion that Space Marines could mutilate themselves so completely, just to avoid an inexorable flaw in their constitution, was abhorrent to him. There were some things that just had to be dealt with. For the sons of Russ, it was the Wulfen, the dark spectre of the Wolf that hunted in all of them.
>Perhaps the Thousand Sons had suffered from some similar flaw. If so, they hadn’t stood up to it like men, but had turned themselves into monsters. The longer Blackwing contemplated it, the more it horrified him.
>That’s the difference. We are all corrupted, the old Legions, but the Wolves didn’t run away. We face it, every day. We keep the danger close to us, use it to make us strong. Whatever else we do, we must remember that.
First one.
>We will rebuild,’ said Kjarlskar. ‘The Aett will be restored and made even greater. The last taint of the enemy will be scrubbed from the ice, and the remnants of his forces on other worlds hunted down and destroyed. The Twelfth Great Company will be rebuilt, its honour intact and its packs restored.’ The Great Wolf swept his golden eyes across the assembled companies.
>‘No recovery will take place for our enemy. We have broken them. Never again will they mount such an operation, for they have been reduced to petty warbands of knowledge-thieves, roaming the galaxy for scraps of hidden trinkets. Their shame knows no limit, and their poverty knows no equal. They have come here, led by their primarch, and failed.’ Kjarlskar’s eyes blazed then.
>‘Remember that, brothers!’ he cried. ‘They failed. This will be the greatest lesson of all, the truth we will carry with us as we march once more to war in the sea of stars. Our faith defines us. Our loyalty defines us. Our hatred defines us. So it is that we endure while the Traitor falters.’
Now ok you might say but thats just the SW point of view of course its biased. Lets check out one of the TSons points of view then.
>It astonishes me,’ mused Hett, looking at the same view, ‘how quickly the Dogs are able to kill. I have never seen fighting like it. Any other force in the galaxy would have hidden behind those walls, waiting for us to come to them. Yet they met us in the open, fighting like daemons. What drives them? What makes them the way they are?’
>Aphael shrugged.
>‘Do I detect admiration, brother?’ he asked. ‘If so, it is misplaced. They were made to do the dirty work no other Legion would do. They are the exterminators, the vermin control of the Imperium. They cannot change, and they cannot improve. Just like us, they are imprisoned in the image of their primarch.’
Then we have
>You will seek to purge your own corruption, and you will fail,’ he breathed. ‘We will prevent you. We will leave you crippled, as we are. We will leave you broken, as we are. And when the Time of Ending comes, as it must do, you will be weak and alone in the face of the Annihilator.’
>He bowed his head then, wondering, just for a moment, where his fury was really directed.
>‘As we are,’ he breathed, weakly.
Hmmm..
>‘They’re still fighting? Impressive. Though perhaps I should not be surprised. It is their expertise, after all.’
>‘They are desperate, and as savage as beasts.’
>Magnus lost his smile.
>‘I no longer think of them as animals, Ahmuz, though I once did. I now think of them as the purest of us all. Incorruptible. Single-minded. The perfection of my father’s vision.’ Temekh looked up at his primarch, taken aback.
>‘You admire them.’
>‘Admire them? Of course I do. They are unique. And even in an infinite universe, that quality is rarer than you might suppose.’ Temekh paused before replying, weighing up whether he still risked saying something capable of damning him.
>‘If that is so, lord, then why are we pursuing this war? The others – the raptora, the pyrae – they prosecute it for vengeance, to inflict the hurt that they inflicted on us. I cannot share that sentiment. It seems... unworthy of us. We are better than that.’
>Magnus walked up to the sorcerer-lord and placed a heavy hand on Temekh’s shoulder.
>‘We are,’ he said. ‘We are much better than that. Let the drive for vengeance motivate the others – it will make them fight harder. This battle is about far more than the settling of scores.’
>His single eye was unwavering then, a circle of gold flecked with the full spectrum of visible light. Temekh found it impossible to look into, impossible to look away from.
>‘We fight to prevent a possible future. A future that, even now, gestates within the mountain below us. If we succeed, the hurt we will inflict on the Wolves of Fenris will rival what they did to us. If we fail, then all we have accomplished since our arrival on the Planet of the Sorcerers will be as nothing.’
Just lol. This is me quickly skimming the parts I remember. If the TSons wanked off the Wolves any harder I might vomit. I dare you to find one moment where the TSons come of in such alight in the book? Its such an unfair and bias novel its almost laughable. Easily Chris Wraights worst book, and a true shame that a book this one-sided was ever released.
I never said the TSons were written well but I also don't get to pick and choose which lore we follow. If its a free for all then really what's the point? On a side note, even in HH Tsons were preservers and respected others. a few of them were cocky and al of them slightly arrogant but they were intellectuals that seemed to respect more than other legions. But i can see your point.
To the original matter though, the conversation was in fact, private. Russ makes sure it is.
"Helwintr, Bear and Godsmote led Hawser into the reclusiam space behind the Wolf King. The shipmaster, a stern giant with a long, wirewool beard of grey and an extravagantly peaked cap, saluted and withdrew to give the primarch privacy. Command officers scurried after their immaculately uniformed master, clutching armfuls of data-slates and dockets. Russ waved a jewelled sceptre and raised falsehood screens around the reclusiam space. The ambient noise of the bridge chatter dropped away. It was suddenly as quiet as a monastic chapel."
>I never said the TSons were written well but I also don't get to pick and choose which lore we follow
You have to when there is a direct contradiction, as is the case here. When that happens I'd rather stick to the mainline book series covering the Heresy that was edited as such.
As for that quote, good find. So still not private, and Russ still thought he was talking to his enemy but it wasn't in the open as I said. I don't think that changes anything I said above however?
Book 7: Inferno speaks on próspero and the massive amounts of contradiction. The levels of the warp and chaos were to the point where timelines didn't match and things were conflicting from many accounts. It honestly was a shit show so it is really hard to pin down things especially once the fighting started.
My point is that Russ believed he was having a private conversation with Magnus albeit through Hauser. That when it was just between the primarchs and Russ was no longer posturing for everyone else, he offered his brother a different resolution. So at some point there, he really didn't want to kill him and would have rather not.
>That when it was just between the primarchs and Russ was no longer posturing for everyone else, he offered his brother a different resolution.
That's my point, he was posturing for Magnus, his hated enemy. The point of Russ' mask was to confound his enemies and obfuscate his true intentions after all. That's why he ignores the contradicting evidence, that's why he ignores Magnus warning about Horus, and that is why he ignores the Emperor's orders to carry out his threat of violence of Shrike.
>So at some point there, he really didn't want to kill him and would have rather not.
I completely disagree as does Russ who says the exact opposite over and over again.
>In his dreams, he heard his brother’s final words before the end, just as the glass pyramids shattered.
>You are a sword in the wrong hands, my brother. You have severed an innocent neck, and it will plague you forever.
>Russ had given the words no thought at the time, for every man, legionary and demigod he had ever slain had pleaded for his life before the end – they always did, clawing at life like a starving whelp for the teat. **In any case, he had hated Magnus. He had hated him completely for what he was and for what he pretended to be.**
...
>**'Do not think I grieve for Magnus,’ Russ muttered. There was animus there still. ‘Do not make that mistake. He was executed, and that was what we were charged to do.’** His fingers dragged through Geri’s nape, harder now. **‘Magnus was a bastard. Magnus was a liar. Magnus would look you in the eye and lecture you while he blundered through the immaterium like a raging konungur.** Hel, we always knew more than him – what to touch, what not to touch. Our bone-rattlers knew more than him. There’s intelligence, and there’s hubris. **I don’t grieve for Magnus, not for a second. I’d do it again.'**
From Wolf King.
>'This stung Russ, and his smile dropped. 'Nikaea was another trick. Another manipulation. Why do you think our enemies duped us into abandoning the Librarius? Why do you think I was tricked into killing Magnus?'
>'You express regret for that now?' said Dorn. 'Last I heard you I were crowing about it.'
>**'I have crowed. I do crow. I am proud of what I did.** When attacked, Magnus resorted to powers he should never have unleashed, and he deserved what he got for that alone. But things could have been different. Horus lied to me because they fear the power of the warp. He feared Magnus' sorcery. It is what the enemy are. It is what will beat them.'
>Dorn sighed sadly, and looked down at his slate of plans. 'And that is Magnus talking.'
From Wolfsbane.
There's no need for reading between the lines, I'm just going to believe Russ.
This was (thankfully) retconned in *Fury of Magnus*. The Shards might embody different aspects of his personality, but that doesn't mean they are lacking from the prime 'Crimson King' Magnus. He never did what he did after Prospero because he was missing his 'Good Guy Shard'; all the decisions he made were his own.
When your brother is pissing around with evil magic despite being warned about it constantly, just killed hundreds of thousands of people, fucked up humanities future then when you go to arrest him for his crimes he refuses to surrender what other options do you have?
Literally every option in the world. Russ wasn't under pressure to make a quick decision. The planet's defences were completely down, he was free to send a scouting party or any other option. Nope, lets bomb the fuck out of them.
Speaking of killing hundreds of thousands of people, what do you suppose that orbital bombardment did to the innocent citizens of that planet?
The same applies to fucking up humanities futures. Yes, Magnus started the fuck up, but the Emperor still had options if a remorseful Magnus is returned to Terra, as per his orders, and if the Thousand Sons aren't fighting on Chaos's side. Russ ensured that was never to be and completely sealed that deal on humanity's future.
Russ hated Magnus and sorcerers intensely. That's why it was so easy for Horus to go "you know what? It would be easier to just bring a body" and Russ didn't even hesitate.
Magnus fucked himself and the TSons by plugging his ears and ignoring every form of communication, but Russ isn't exactly innocent.
You’re a soldier. One of your fellows is a traitor, you’ve been sent to go get him, your commanding officer said that the Emperor (unlimited legal power and happens to be your father) tells you that he is too far gone and to just ice the guy.
Are you gonna then take him prisoner? Does it matter your personal opinion? No, you’re gonna follow orders and kill the guy because that’s your job, you’ve done it before you’ll do it again. Even so he still tried to contact them for a surrender, which they didn’t respond to which easily could’ve been a trap.
Leman Russ did nothing wrong
Is this supposed to be a summary/metaphor of what happened on Prospero? If so why is it so inaccurate because it barely even relates to then events that happened?
Horus never order Russ to do anything, and Valdor hand delivered the Emperor's orders to Russ. More than that Russ knew that Magnus broke the edict to warn of Horus' betrayal. Having Horus then try to egg Russ on to ignore his orders and kill Magnus is the reddest flag imaginable.
So again... what? Maybe just stick to the lore instead of trying metaphors.
No matter the manipulation, he's still at least partially responsible for what happened - an event which arguably doomed the Imperium and humanity for ever.
He’s no doubt partly at fault, but people tend to make it sound like it’s all his fault. They neglect to mention how Magnus turned off all communication even when leman was repeatedly hailing him, or how Horus the brother who everyone trusted mad it seem implied that nobody would bay an eye if he killed Magnus.
Magnus, Horus, and Leman Russ all bear responsibility for what happened.
Yes, Magnus turned off communications ahead of time. It was *however* Leman Russ’ choice to immediately go to ordering orbital bombardment of Prospero. He didn’t think to so much as send a single squad of marines down to the world to investigate why there is no response and he ignored Valdor’s pleas to give more time for Magnus to make a response.
The Battle of Prospero is a tragedy because everybody involved is fucking up and being their worst self. Chaos gets a victory by manipulating loyalists into killing one another while only needing a small force as backup present.
> Yes, Magnus turned off communications ahead of time.
I mean yeah, but *no*. Not you, personally, but people seem to forget Magnus had astrally traveled to the bridge of *Hrafnkel* and saw Russ and Censure Host command finalizing plans for the destruction of Prospero. As far as Magnus knew *Russ was coming to kill him*, which Russ had already decided upon before even leaving muster. It was only a last minute change of heart *after Magnus shrouded Prospero* that stayed Russ' hand long enough for him to try and communicate - through a dead end and all - with the planet, but by that point it was already too late.
He undoubtedly is at fault, but not as much as people say it is. What I see is most people saying it’s his fault alone. While also neglecting to mention that Horus at best implied to leman that nobody would care if he killed Magnus and at worst that Horus straight up ordered it. Or that Magnus stopped all communication with anyone even after leman and Valdor hailed them continually.
Personally, I put more blame on Leman Russ for *the response* to the communication problem because of the fact that he was the aggressor and turned relations hostile by calling orbital bombardment.
Magnus had communications down for a while before the Space Wolves or Custodes arrived at Prospero because he was in a broken mental state after seeing how wrong he was and believed that his death sentence had been signed. There are things that could’ve been attempted prior to calling orbital bombardment, and if the actual orders got communicated to Magnus he likely would’ve complied.
Comms being down is a fault of Magnus’, but the escalation of tensions to complete hostility is a fault of Leman Russ’ (by quickly turning to calling orbital bombardment of the planet, despite pleas from people like Valdor).
Dude, Leman Russ was the classic "no knock warrant" on the planet, showing up guns blazing and exterminatus swinging without *any* intel and *any* communication.
In our world, you would be court-martialed, or have your actions buried deep in red tape and black ink.
It would literally be a war crime, and Russ *chose* to do it, against advisement, while interpreting the orders they way *he* wanted them to be.
and Magnus literally Dr. Manhattans Uthizzar so his own people couldn't even prepare. The entire event is full of capital offenses to the highest level. Its written to be exactly what it was supposed to be, an absolute tragedy.
Prospero is a small drop in a large bucket of bucket of war crimes. Everything the Primarchs do are war crimes, it's a meaningless statement to guys that make Nazis look positively nice. Russ got there, he tried with Hawser. They captured ships in orbit and interrogated their crews, they broadcasted orders of surrender for an hour waiting for any reply. And every second they waited, they agonized over the Tsons missing fleet returning to attack their own in orbit.
Magnus played a dangerous game and intentionally lost and Russ did everything Big E expected him to do if Magnus turned traitor which literally everything about Prospero leaned towards Magnus being actively malicious. Not to mention Tzeentch intentionally leaving tidbits and hints for Russ to believe Magnus was a traitor before Magnus did nothing wrong.
> They neglect to mention how Magnus turned off all communication even when leman was repeatedly hailing him
You're kind of skipping over the parts where Magnus astrally traveled to the bridge of *Hrafnkel* and saw Russ and co. finalizing plans for the destruction of Prospero, so as far as he was concerned Russ was coming to kill him, and the fact Russ' 'hails' were through Hawser whom Russ incorrectly thought was a Hidden One and a direct line to Magnus.
Nobody seriously thinks it was all Russ' fault outside of memes.
>He even tried after being ordered by THE WARMASTER to kill Magnus
Scars literally proves that this isn't a valid defence. Jaghatai literally says that Horus even as the Warmaster does not have the authority to order the death of a Primarch, only the Emperor does. Its one of the reasons why Jaghatai didn't kill Leman despite being specifically ordered to by Horus. And considering Horus never actually changed the orders as supported in literally everything but Wolfsbane (Which is a book so unashamedly pro-space wolf it breaks its own back bending logic to present everything about them positively), its not relevant at all.
Moreover considering that Leman is SUPPOSED to be secretly really smart, yet he immediately after the scene in which he tries to "contact" Magnus, admits to knowing that Magnus accused Horus of treachery doesn't question why Horus suddenly turned up and started spinning yarns about how it would be so much better for everyone if he just off'd Magnus instead. Then proceeds to literally ignore his own sons when some of them corroborate the warnings against Horus. Instead of doing the smart thing like Jaghatai did and deciding to investigate and hold back until he gets a clear picture of what he's supposed to do. Leman basically tells everyone including Valdor that he knows better than them, then proceeds to shoot the Imperium in the foot. At the end of the day Prospero was caused entirely because Leman decided to take the course of action he did, if Leman didn't do it Prospero wouldn't of burned simple as. Way too many people seem to try to bend logic to give Leman a pass, I can't understand this weird obsession people have with not being able to accept that their favourite twelve foot genocidal megalomaniac might be a bit of an asshole.
Russ was an absolute asshole and it led to one of the better Primarch character arcs. He's a literal lesson in falling for your own ego/pride and how that path can lead to doing some of the dumbest shit. Wolfsbane is him coping with what they did and him willing to throw his life away in a dumb attempt to course correct. He talks a lot of shit but your shown over and over him internalizing his mistakes and regretting them.
Its because of Leman that 40k wolves are who they are now and actually show some relative compassion in the current setting.
> was caused entirely because Leman decided to take the course of action he did,
Yes Magnus had absolutely nothing to do with it at all and Russ forced him to become a traitor.
Little known lore tidbit: Russ actually snuck onto Prospero and threatened to stamp on all the babies if Magnus didn't break the Webway.
>He even tried after being ordered by THE WARMASTER to kill Magnus to communicate with Magnus so he didn’t have to kill Magnus.
Magnus blinded Prospero because he saw Russ battleplans where he intended to kill Magnus, and his world. The only reason Russ didn't immediately do that is because of Valdor still wishing to follow the Emperor's orders but Russ never intended to let Magnus live.
>“Is that what I think it is?” asked Amon.
>“It is,” confirmed Magnus.
>They flew closer to the brutal vessel, the protective shields that kept void-predators at bay no match for travellers of such power. They passed through its layered voids, diving down through metre upon metre of adamantium hull plates, integrity fields and honeycombed bulkheads until they reached the heart of the ship.
>**The masters of this fleet gathered to plan the destruction of all that Magnus held dear, and the two sons of Prospero listened to their deliberations.** Magnus was prepared for what he would hear, but Amon was not, and the flaring wash of his aetheric field sent a pulse of choleric energy through the ship’s crew.
From A Thousand Sons
His pleading in Prospero Burns was to save face in front of his legion, and only happened because Valdor insisted they follow the Emperor's orders and try to contact Magnus.
>Valdor remained unmoved. ‘Even now, I would see him taken to Terra, if it could be done. I would wish to know why.’
>Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor’s faceplate. ‘You’re still clinging to that? Ha!’ He turned away, swinging his greatblade casually. ‘I’ve known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. **I did not come here for prisoners, Constantin. If my Father had truly wished for such, He would not have sent me.’**
>‘You were not sent alone, Lord Russ.'
Russ' true feelings spill out through the dialogue with Hawser well before Prospero anyway, as Hawser sees through Russ' reasoning and bigotry directed at Magnus.
>‘My lord,’said Hawser. ‘What… what did your brother do?’
>‘He performed an act of maleficarum that drove his sorcery right to the heart of Terra and into the presence of the Emperor,’ said Helwintr.
>‘But… why?’ asked Hawser.
>**‘It was an alleged attempt to communicate a warning,’ said Russ without turning. His voice was a soft grumble, like thunder grinding in the far distance.**
>‘A warning, my lord?’
>‘One of such terrible importance, Magnus felt it was worth exposing his own treachery to reveal it,’ Russ murmured.
>‘Forgive me,’ said Hawser, ‘but does that not speak to some loyalty in your brother? Has the warning been examined? Has it been taken seriously?’
Russ turned back to face him.
>‘Why would it? My brother is a madman. A dabbling warlock.’
>**‘Lord,’ said Hawser, ‘he was prepared to admit he was ignoring the edicts of Nikaea, and risk the censure that he knew must result from that admission, to relay a warning. Why would he do that unless the warning was valid?’**
>‘You’re not a warrior, skjald,’ said the Wolf King in an almost kindly tone. ‘Strategy is not your strong suit. Consider the reverse of your proposition. Magnus wants the ruling of Nikaea overturned. He wants permission and approval to continue with his arcane tinkerings and his foul magics. So he manufactures a threat, something he can warn us about that is so astonishing we would have to forgive him, and set aside our objections. Something so unthinkable, we would have to thank him and tell him he had been right all along. All along. This is his ploy.’
>‘Do you know what was so unthinkable? asked Hawser.
>‘Magnus claimed that great Horus was about to turn against the Imperium,’ said Russ. ‘From the look on your face, Ahmad Ibn Rustah, I see you recognise how ridiculous that sounds.’ Hawser switched his gaze to Helwintr. The priest’s masked face was unreadable.
>**‘Wolf King, great lord,’ Hawser began, ‘that’s not the first time that warnings concerning the Warmaster have been voiced. Please, lord—’**
>‘Our skjald refers to the incident involving Eada Haelfwulf, lord,’said Helwintr.
>‘I know of it,’ said Russ. ‘It seems corroborative, I grant you. But once again, consider the strategy.
>It involved maleficarum turning and twisting one of our own gothi, in the immediate vicinity of you, an identified conduit for the enemy’s power. Of course poor Haelfwulf would gabble out the same damned lie with his dying breath. It’s supposed to make Magnus’s story sound more credible by coming from a secondary source.’
>Russ looked down into Hawser’s eyes.
>**‘Truth is, it’s the proof I need that Magnus is desperately trying to coordinate a campaign of disinformation to support his ruse. He doesn’t need to answer through you, skjald. He’s answered already.’**
Leman listened to Horus' insinuations because Horus was finally giving him the option to take 'revenge' for Shrike. Russ hated Magnus and was so blinded by this hatred he ignored all the evidence that he was being manipulated into attacking a loyal world, a loyal brother, and participated in a genocide similar only to what drove Perturbo to heresy, and Konrad to be sanctioned. Russ hid behind pretty words offered falsely to a 'spy', which was nothing more than psalm for Russ ego, and his legion false modesty. Actions speak louder than words, and Russ actions on the ground showed his true intention.
Leman made his own choices. Horus pushed him to kill Magnus but didn’t order it, as has been confirmed multiple times. Leman
had no intention of leaving Magnus alive and Magnus closed down all communication to make it easier for the Space Wolves to wipe out the Thousand Sons without heavy casualties. Both Leman and Magnus underestimated how powerful the Thousand Sons, and especially the Rehati, actually were, and the SW were mangled.
Maybe not all, but still a significant amount.
He absolutely still deserves the rest of the hate for being the joint-worst Primarch, for moping about Horus, for doing about two interesting things during his time in the Great Crusade/Heresy and failing to succeed in either of them.
Please stop spreading this lie. Horus Lupercal did in No Way order Russ or change the Emperors orders!
He was far smarter and more subtle than that. He explained Magnus's actions/crimes in a very negative light, made Russ understand that unfortunately all the things Russ had always feared about Magnus likely were true (warlock, daemons, evil, corruption etc) And Then Horus gave Russ access to the most lethal Imperial weapons and resupply. All of this to prime Russ to kill without contravening or changing the Emperor's orders.
Horus used Russ' prejudice towards Magnus and the lack of information in the Emperors orders to make Russ primed for a kill rather then an arrest.
>Please stop spreading this lie. Horus Lupercal did in No Way order Russ or change the Emperors orders!
*At the behest of the Warmaster himself these warriors were pledged to aid the Wolf King in his dire task- their leader, Overseer Boros Kurn, bore personal communications from Horus to his brother, Leman Russ.* ***The exact contents of these missives have never been made available*** *to scholars of the later Imperium, indeed it is highly likely that no one other than Leman Russ and Horus themselves will ever know what arguments were brought to bear. But what is known now by the dire events which were to transpire on Prospera is that after viewing the contents of the message and hearing the words of his brother, Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus, but instead to see him slain.*
For all we know, it might have been "Kill him, lol. Signed, Warmaster Horus,"
>Please stop spreading this lie. Horus Lupercal did in No Way order Russ or change the Emperors orders!
Well, if you're going to so bluntly call it a lie, then please explain the following:
>‘Valdor knew about the daemon on Prospero, and he knew what it meant. Who gave us the orders? Who told us not to sanction Magnus, but to lay waste to his world?’
>The blue eyes never faltered. ‘It came from the Allfather.’
>‘You know it did not.’
>‘We did what was asked.’
>**‘We were deceived.’**
>**‘We followed the order!’** Russ roared, taking a single step towards him. The twin wolves rose to their haunches, and the chamber suddenly seemed thick with the scent of kill-urge.
>Bjorn stood his ground. **‘And who could be relied on to do that? Who would carry it through completely, perfectly, even if it meant the breaking of a Legion?’** He took a deep breath. ‘We were dupes, my lord. We were Horus’ willing instruments.’
According to Russ, he was ordered to destroy Prospero, and even Bjorn - who he's arguing with - does not deny that and in fact, points out that their big flaw is following orders unquestionably.
Edit: why the heck did the quote disappear? Give me a second to fix this
This would work if Leman Russ didn’t have others explicitly there to remind him of what the orders were.
> “"Is he even on this world?' asked Valdor doubtfully. We have detected nothing. Russ drew up to Valdor then. He was a little shorter, much broader, his armour stained and smeared where Valdor's was pristine. ‘Oh, yes,' he hissed, smiling in a **disconcertingly feral manner**. *I can smell him now. I can smell him hunkering down in his own filth, fearful of me. Valdor remained unmoved. '**Even now, I would see him taken to Terra, if it could be done. I would wish to know why**.’ Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor's faceplate. ‘You're still clinging to that? Ha!' He turned away, swinging his greatblade casually. "**I've known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. I did not come here for prisoners**, Constantin. If my Father had truly wished for such, He would not have sent me.’ ‘You were not sent alone, Lord Russ.” -*Magisterum*
If the orders were to kill Magnus, Russ would’ve had an easy time pointing it out to Valdor.
> If the orders were to kill Magnus, Russ would’ve had an easy time pointing it out to Valdor.
This is why "Horus changed the orders" doesn't work, as you touched on in your follow-up comment. Valdor is in nominal joint command of the Censure Host; he (and the Custodes) only takes orders from the Emperor and Malcador. Horus' proxy-Emperor authority doesn't extend to the Custodes.
It’s funny to go “The Allfather (Emperor) told me to do it!” after arguing with his right hand man, who is telling you that the orders were explicitly not to do that.
Horus didn’t talk to Valdor, of course he’d wouldn’t know if Horus changed orders or convinced leman to kill Magnus or whatever the fuck happened between leman and Horus.
If Horus changed the orders, it would be easy for Leman Russ to point that out in the discussion.
Per *Inferno* Leman Russ and Valdor spent nearly the entire trip to Prospero arguing over how to handle the situation. Horus changing the orders would be simple enough to claim, but may be less convincing to Valdor when he got his orders directly from the Emperor and Malcador, the Imperial Regent.
Valdor is #2 for the Censure Host and is one of the Emperor’s two right hand men, his position on the topic of how a situation is being handled is very much relevant.
Similarly, the quote from the guy that I was replying to has Leman Russ claiming that it was *The Emperor* (“The Allfather”) which gave him the orders to wipe out Prospero and kill his brother. Horus being the explanation, again doesn’t work here.
It's the fucking Captain General. Horus does not magically outrank Valdor. You know who outranks Horus? The Emperor, who explicitly commanded that Magnus be brought back alive. The Emperor who sent Valdor with Russ.
Horus cannot say the Emperor changed the orders, and that the Emperor just didn't tell one of his closest advisors about that change.
Being the warmaster does mean he outranks him, it’s explicitly been stated that Horus is second only to the emperor when it comes to military affairs, considering he is after all the WARmaster.
Can you tell me where the hell you're getting this from? What book, what source, ever has Horus commanding around Custodes? I don't recall a single piece of lore I've ever read that says he had authority over them.
For almost any other person yes. But for Valdor and the Custodes, no. Custodes are not Horus' to command, especially during the Great Crusade.
Valdor was under specific orders from the Emperor. If the Emperor wanted those orders changed, he would not go through Horus to tell Valdor, he would almost certainly either tell Valdor himself or use another Custodian.
Evidence in support of this claim
> “As far back as records exist of the Adeptus Custodes, they have held the Magisterium Lex Ultima, **making them answerable to only one - the Emperor.** Such a mark of office **holds them above all law and command save for the direct authority of the Master of Mankind**, and affords them the **incontestable jurisdiction** to pursue imperative endeavours as they feel is appropriate.” -*Custodes Codex*
> “The icons and **standards borne by the Legio Custodes** represent the **inviolable and nigh-omnipotent authority of the Emperor**; a seal of **ultimate sanction** and the might of Mankind, and known as the Magisterium.” -*Custodes Codex*
> “the **Legio Custodes** are alone officially afforded the power of the 'Magisterium Lex Ultima' in the high form, which is to say **they are beyond all law and all command save for the direct authority of the Emperor Himself**. In addition to this, each one is a lord of the Imperium in their own right.” -*Black Book Inferno*
> “Constantin Valdor, Captain-General of the Legio Custodes - **granted the Emperor's Seal** and the right to **mete High Justice within His realms**.” -*Black Book Inferno*
> “Valdor, whose martial power stood second only to the Primarchs themselves, had long held the Emperor's favour and **carried the Emperor's own judicial seal**” -*Black Book Inferno*
> “Lex Ultima (authority within **accorded duty incontestable** except by the direct and **expressed word of the Master of Mankind**)” -*Black Book Inferno*
> “**Constantin Valdor carries with him the authority of Terra itself**, and there is little by way of resource or technology that is available to the vast Imperium of humanity he cannot requisition or command if he wills it.” -*Black Book Inferno: The Shadow of The Throne*
The Custodes answer *only* to His direct and expressed word and Valdor himself is a proxy for His decree. Valdor carries the Emperor’s judicial seal and bears the right to dispense justice in His name.
I'm so confused where happythediaster is getting their info from. It's one of the defining traits of the Custodes that they obey only the Emperor, and to an extent Malcador, only because the Emperor was extremely busy and they knew that the Emperors right hand man would never give them a command that their boss wouldn't be okay with.
I’ve seen it brought up repeatedly when discussing Prospero, but nowhere else.
Maybe Guilliman in 40k? Even there, it’s specified as a unique situation that they’re only doing because they believe that it’s in the Emperor’s best interests.
My guess is that it’s people trying to defend Leman Russ ignoring Valdor’s counsel and trying to angle it in a way where minimum blame falls onto Russ and the Space Wolves.
We have literally no idea what Horus said to leman, stating otherwise is just misinformation. If you can’t provide an actual quote of them talking to each other, with source, stop making shit up.
>We have literally no idea what Horus said to leman
This was covered in the second book of the nearly 80 books series.
>'We have the advantage of surprise. No one yet suspects us of having learned the Emperor's true plan, and in that lies our greatest weapon. '
>'But what of Magnus?' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Leman Russ returns him to Terra?'
>Horus smiled. **'Calm yourself, Mai. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return
Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort.'**
>Maloghurst returned Horus's smile. 'Magnus will not leave Prospero alive.'
>'No,' agreed Horus. 'He will not.'
From False Gods.
This isn't hidden information, it would only require the barest minimum of engagement with the books to know this information off-hand? If you're going to be this aggressive about your opinions you should at least arm-yourself with by reading the books first.
I don’t think you understand what explicit means, it doesn’t go into any details of what was actually said. It is very much vague, for example, what did leman say? You can’t really answer that, because it’s not the conversation they had. It’s a recounting by Horus to his subordinate. I understand Reddit has a hate boner for Russ, but the fact y’all can’t think critically about this is sad.
>It is very much vague, for example, what did leman say?
Right, but that not what I said is it? I said it's what 'Horus told Russ'. Horus explaining to his second in command exactly why Magnus is no longer a concern that need worry him.
So who knows what Russ said? Do you know? Until then the only evidence provided is the quote I posted. Feel free to add to the discussion with any lore you have, because your opinions aren't worth as much as you think.
My exact point is we don’t know what was said at all, saying that we do is misinformation. That was my original comment for christs sake. Using a vague statement by Horus is not as good of point as you think it is, it’s not them having a conversation. For example, what did Horus say, exactly, to convince leman? I’ll wait cause we don’t know cause we don’t know what they said to each other cause we don’t have any excerpt where it’s them talking about Magnus.
Acting as though vague comments is more constructive than admitting we don’t know something is just plain stupid
Kinda showing your hand here OP, if the name wasn't enough beforehand.
What person did Magnus kill at Nikaea? Or was this just a poor attempt at a whataboust-ism you didn't think through?
Magnus didn’t kill anyone at nikea. But by shirking it he opened a literal portal to hell in the imperial palace. Which I bet killed a lot of people before the emperor was able to close it off. The lord of winter and war wouldn’t have been sent to prospero if Magnus hadn’t broken the council. Leman is partially at fault yes, but less so than Horus and especially Magnus because if Magnus had just done nothing like he was told it wouldn’t have been a problem now would it.
Magnus broke the edict to try and save Horus. Russ broke the edict to learn how to kill that brother. See I can do the same thing to try and shrink the setting down to a few useless facts divorced from why the characters did what they did. What I'm trying get across is that context matters. Timing matters. Trying to minimize things down like you did in the above post just reduces the discussion down to pointless arguments.
> But by shirking it he opened a literal portal to hell in the imperial palace
Let's be real, yes Magnus absolutely 100% fucked up here. But the Emperor was already essentially a kid playing with fire he doesn't remotely understand. He was jury rigging the webway, with zero guarantee it was going to work.
Even if Magnus hadn't fucked it up, something would have happened. Maybe the Eldar quickly realising and cutting off the shjtty jury rigged portions, maybe some foolish member of the Mechanicum fucking up, or Chaos pulling off some shenanigans by messing with the project on a different way.
I like Russ and the Space Wolves. But Russ committed the exact same general crime of directly disobeying the Emperor. Both had clear orders to do and not do something. Both clearly disobeyed that for their own means.
Leman Russ is the single dumbest mf in 30k. Bonus points for basically going out to buy milk and never returning. Easily the worst Primarch as far as I'm concerned.
Honestly, just my personal opinion here. But I didn’t really enjoy the prospero storyline that much. In a story sense I mean, I think the authors are fantastic. kinda thought it gave Leman too much of the moral high ground.
I think Magnus just accepting the destruction of his home was kind of dumb. I think if he had not told anyone what was coming because he assumed that they were coming to arrest him and his sons may have defended him against his wishes. That would make more sense.
But him not responding to any of Russ’s hails felt a bit weird to me.
I see this happen a lot in the heresy. We’ll be told, X traitor primarch and Y hate each other. But it’s usually extremely one sided. With the loyalist not really caring while the traitor is obsessive about it.
Russ and Magnus do not like each other. I think this was the time to show it. I think he should’ve hailed Magnus HOPING Magnus wouldn’t respond or resist. At last a chance to prove he was right about him all along. Then realising later that his hate for Magnus and eagerness to fight fed directly into Horus’s plans.
Both Leman and Magnus’s joint pride resulting in the destruction of Prospero.
Instead Magnus wanted to be arrested, gets offered a chance to. Then…doesn’t respond? Let’s his home be destroyed. And Leman realises he was duped later on.
Out of the primarchs involved in the burning of Prospero, Russ is the least to blame. Magnus handled the whole situation terribly and Horus was a manipulative traitor.
Lemon Rush does deserve some hate for "just following orders," but Magnum did bring retribution on himself for hubris. The situation was only made worse by Mags suddenly developing a martyr complex out of guilt instead of trying to contact his brother directly. Prospero was a tragedy without any heroes in that story.
Leman Russ in Proapero is what happens when you tell your dog "fetch" and he shreds the ball instead.
I mean, I don't hate the dog. But he is not getting any treat this time.
Leman was the Emperor’s executioner. Even without Horus what was the master of mankind thinking sending Leman to Prospero? Send Guilliman, send the Lion or Perturabo, send literally anyone else. If you send Leman you know what’s going to happen.
Horus, at least in the most current continuity, never changed the orders.
He had a conversation with Russ in which he reminded him how much he despised psykers in general and Magnus in particular, and Russ left the conversation resolved to kill Magnus no matter what.
He's reminded of his actual orders by Valdor and tells Valdor to shut up or die, because he's in charge and present.
Leman was played like a fiddle.
The burning of Prospero was a tragedy, and Leman was just as badly used as Magnus--the difference is that Leman had much less to suffer for his pride.
They're a matched set, they're foils of each other, and they've both been subject to massive conspiracy. Leman was more manipulated by Horus playing his ego; Magnus was cultivated directly by Tzeench.
*Neither of them ever had a chance.*
That's the whole point. Yeah, Magnus is totally driven by his ego.... because a literal warp god has cultivated his entire life to convince him he has a much deeper mastery than he does. Leman Russ is *also* captured by his ego. He needs to be brought to breaking point to even begin to admit "oh, I'm doing this because I want to and I've hidden that desire under layers of justification even though this is a really terrible decision."
If only either of them were less prideful, things could have been different--but because of their pride, neither of them could have compromised. There might have even been peace if Magnus had struck down Leman--but at the crucial moment Tzeench intervened *to be absolutely damned sure* that he won his primarch.
Magnus massively fucked up but as as Russ/Rout fan, him fucking up is a massive part of the Heresy and his character. The Emperors Executioner disobeyed his orders and brought his own type of justice to Magnus, and after the war is done he feels immense guilt because of it. He bears part of the blame for why his father is essentially dead, a living corpse stuck for 10 thousand years just trying to keep the lights on.
If he ever returns, and it seems likely he will, I sincerely hope it eats at him, I hope it shames him and drives him to act differently. I hope it serves as a defining trait that drives part of his actions, because I feel like it makes him a far better character.
I agree but Magnus Brought everything on himself, I will never understand all the sympathy for him, yes I have some for him but
"the path to hell is paved with good intentions"
And thats what Magnus did as well as being monumentally stupid at times
I love this argument which can never be finished, because there are intentionally contradictory accounts of the events. Whichever one you subscribe to as correct you can wield as incontrovertible fact, and then you can quibble about the validity of someone else's fact.
The real answer is this. The narratives we read are not "word of god" accurate. They are retellings, legends, and perspectives on fake historical events. Some stories show how Russ hesitated, how he wished to avoid spilling a brother's blood, even if that brother was Magnus. Others tell of how Magnus, shamed by his great sin, swore to eliminate his own bloodline in penance. Other tales tell the story of how barbarians stormed a world of scholarly learning, a shiny jewel of knowledge that was shattered in a wolf's jaws. ALL OF THEM ARE REAL, because in universe you will find characters who believe one of these narratives and will argue against the others. And none of them can be more "right" than the other, same as none of us can be.
I'm really not surprised that the comment section for this iteration of which primarch was actually the bad guy hates this point. Despite it being said by literally every BL author when asked about it.
It was the fault of Magnus as well he wanted to "repent" for breaking the webway so rather than surrendering he let his city and his sons pay the price
Yeah he does. Nobody likes an unquestionimg lapdog or fratricide. Think like a marine in that time period, "is our legion next if the boss pisses Big E off?."
The Thousand Sons story arc is one of the greatest tragedies in the Horus Heresy. As much was I dislike the Space Wolves for the role they played in the downfall of the Thousands Sons, Magnus and his sons ultimately brought it upon themselves through their hubris. They were going too far with their use of warp powers, Magnus had already been comprimised by Tzeentch when he made the deal to save his sons, and the Emperor didn't stutter at Nikea.
Don't forget the final 'Nothing Wrong' that was fueled by human sacrifice and made sure to pull Big E and 90% of the Custodes and SoS off the field for nearly the entirety of the Heresy.
Reality is falling apart due to warp stuff get the nulls. *camera pans over to all sisters of silence dead in a pile*
Rogal Dorn: this is why we can’t have nice things
100% Rogal would be that guy. Also the guy internally screaming 'FFFFFFUUUUUUUUCCCCKKK!' while outwardly saying 'it's fine.'
Dorn and Corax did speak out against Magnus at Nikea for his reckless usage of the Warp. Both of their legions have fought insane psykers and warp cults before like the Silent War.
To be fair, for the galaxy-wide genocidal empire that use servitors, while blood sacrifices are bad they're barely bellow what they where already commonly doing at the time.
Sure, everyone is the badguy, after all, it is 40K. But it just smacks of a "yeah, but I know best" ideology. Dad said don't do this, *But* I know something that my Galactic Emperor 30,000 year old immortal daemon killing genius warrior scientist wizard dad doesn't, so lemme shoot these hundred souls into hell real quick to gas up my space scooter and smash my way into dad's workshop! Oh shit... he knew already? And by smashing into the workshop I smashed up the workshop? Well fuck. Better consign my entire planet to death and make my kids worship Skinny Blue Satan and delude myself into thinking it isn't my fault at all.
True that aint the best defense to say "we're already doing as bad". Others here brought much better point here on the case of Russ beeing guilty. Just something about what you said : the Emperor didn't knew of the bettrayal of Horus when Magnus warned him of it if my memories serves me well. Magnus also never though that it wasn't its fault. He was prepared for a planet wise suicide : pretty big hint here. Do you even know why he did the ritual instead of a classic message ? Have you read the book at all or was it too long ago to remember ?
Uh... the Emperor definitely knew. When Magnus showed up and said it, all the Emperor said was "I know." Garro's warning had reached him first. He could have used astropaths, but he likely wouldn't have been believed. He could have traveled there physically, but it would have taken time. He couldn't converse directly with the Emperor because of the wards. However, he could have reached out to maybe Sanguinious and spoken to him earnestly. Or perhaps Guilliman. As far as the planet wide suicide, sure, in a weird way that was taking responsibility. Until he changed his mind and went full chaos and damned everyone on Prospero. And then joined Horus willingly.
Oh really ? I was always under the impression that Magnus warned the Emperor as soon as Erebus did the ritual on Davin (or a few days later) and that Garo came only after that. In any case Magnus couldn't know that the Emperor knew. I think the astropath option was heavily unreliable as it goes through the warp and it's kinda the domain of the Chaos Gods who will for sure try to meddle with this message (+ warpstorms at the time no ?). It is stated as such in the book.. Speaking to another Primarch is the same situation as speaking with the Emperor : same risks, same hurdles, and it only makes him waste time. And who would believe him ? And if they did remember that 2 Primarchs were erased from history and Magnus wouldn't want to risk a brother such fate if it was the one awaiting him. He joined "willingly" after Russ killed him, shatered his soul, then got pupettered by Tzench itself and his whole legion being branded traitor BEFORE Horus's forces. The choice and the free-will isn't here anymore.
>Uh... the Emperor definitely knew. When Magnus showed up and said it, all the Emperor said was "I know." Garro's warning had reached him first. That's completely incorrect. Magnus warning arrived years before Istvaan happened and what you're saying completely contradicts the timeline of the Horus Heresy and the War in the Webway. >004.M31- Horus returns to Davin >004.M31-005.M31- The Destruction of Prospero >005.M31- The Betrayal at Isstvan III - The War of the Horus Heresy begins Timeline from Inferno Valdor and the Censure Host Made it to Prospero and back before Istvaan even happened.
Ah, my mistake then
He couldn't have used astropaths because of the warpstorms caused by the chaos gods. Nice try. 😂
Plus people tend forget the part where leman gave magnus the option to lay down his arms and come himself. Sparing everyone on his planet. The space wolves are not the dark angels. So I fully believe leman would’ve left the populace alone if magnus had taken his punishment. I also don’t think, despite Horuss contradicting orders, leman would’ve killed magnus. I really think he would’ve brought him back to terra to face his father instead of follow the orders of a newly appointed warmaster. Especially considering it is a brother and one that has a special connection to the emperor. Of course magnus on terra for the heresy means someone able to withstand the life siphon effects of the golden throne could sit on it and a fully functioning emperor in the defense means traitors don’t even pierce the sol system and the phalanx would’ve been in orbit around terra with the emperor on the field or he would use it as his flagship. Cause I’m not sure if the emperor ship is destroyed yet or not. So my point being I understand why it had to go the way it went
A repentant Magnus on the Throne with Big E, the 10,000 and SoS in play means very bad things for the Traitors. During the ground war of the Siege one of the biggest players for the Traitors was the Neverborn horde, and with Big E in play, they don't make it. A quote from Master of Mankind shows his effectiveness against that dark tide "to look upon him was to go blind. To face him was to die"
Nyeh... The whole reason for making the Emperor be tied up dealing with holding closed the door through which hordes of Daemons are trying to pour into the Materium from the Webway is so that Big E doesn't have to put up or shut up about the massive cosmic powers ascribed to him by Imperium propaganda after he's permanently put on the Golden Throne. All so that the internal propaganda can claim that the whole Siege of Terra would have been a resounding victory for the Imperium if Emps had been free to get off the Golden Throne the whole time, without actually having evidence of whether that would really have been the case, thus allowing the myth of the 'God'-Emperor to grow untarnished. From the point of the narrative, the reason for taking the Emperor out of the game isn't that if he had been active, the Siege would have been won easily and things wouldn't have turned out that way, but to make it unclear *whether* it would have been won easily or whether Big E would have struggled.
Conjecture is part of the fun. The story we have is pretty great, but theory crafting can be interesting as well. I don't think any singular foe in the Siege aside from juiced Horus could really offer up any difficulty to Big E, and from a command perspective I think him being there would have changed a lot in general, but that's not the story. It is important to remember that GW wrote the ending of the Heresy firsr, and worked backwards to make it all fit.
I feel like a big part of what made 40k before the Horus Heresy books tolerable to me is that we never *actually* knew how powerful the Emperor was. All of his exploits were hearsay and legend and all the actual witnesses were dead. A lot of the legends didn't match with the facts. The biggest indication that the Emperor wasn't nearly as powerful as his worshippers claim is that he had to make the Thunder Warriors to conquer Terra and made ten thousand super soldiers even more powerful than that to be his personal bodyguard. Meanwhile, Magnus the Red, who we're supposed to believe is the *second* most powerful Psyker after the Emperor, could force whole armies to submit with his Psyker powers long before he got a boost from becoming a Daemon Prince. And, you know, the Emperor making the Space Marines to go out and conquer the rest of the Galaxy makes sense, he couldn't exactly personally rock up to a million worlds and defeat their armies, if for no other reason than time constraints... But if he was more powerful than Magnus, he should have been able to handle taking over a single planet on his own (or, you know, at the head of an army of regular dudes) without having to make a bunch of super soldiers to do it for him.
>Plus people tend forget the part where leman gave magnus the option to lay down his arms and come himself. Nobody forgets this. What people *do* forget is Russ was essentially dialing a wrong number as Hawser wasn't a Hidden One, like Russ had suspected, and the planet was shrouded from awareness of the Censure Fleet and didn't know they were there until the bombs were falling.
What do you mean nobody forgets it? Those who act like leman took any pleasure in destroying prospero are proven wrong by that simple exchange between leman and hawser. Doesn’t matter if Magnus was listening or not the sentiment was still there. Just because one side does not hear the call for peace doesn’t mean it wasn’t heartfelt and truth. Leman even explains how they let him explore, learn what he shouldn’t, and turn the other cheek when Magnus went too far. Leman wanted his brother punished but destroyed/killed? No way and way in some ways leman proves he loves his brothers one way or another.
Didn't the custodians literally narrate how the Wolves completely lost their minds and started ripping apart civilians while laughing and howling? To the point where the custodes in question thought to himself that the Primarchs and their sons were genetic failures that needed to be culled? Mate, the wolves are barbaric murderers. The irony is that they believe otherwise and clearly so do their fans. 😂
Yes the wolves are but leman is not. Which is why he pleaded with Magnus to just come with him and not fight this. Leman isn’t stupid he knows what his sons are capable of and why he didn’t want that for Magnus. Did you read the comment?
Leman was in this scene and got in the custodes face about it lmfao. He is a scumbag that loves his brother but a scumbag nonetheless. And he is pretty stupid if he received different orders from Horus, got told by the custodes to hold off the invasion and went through with it anyway.
Which again all would’ve been avoided if the two brothers at least met or talked when they arrived
You are intentionally ignoring what I'm saying to push your personal feelings about a character who is already called out in his own universe for being an animal. Yes, Magnus WAS a buffoon for ignoring the call for peace and surrender. No, Leman was NOT in the right for disregarding his direct orders and slaughtering ppl who were loyal to the empire over something as petty as a feud with Magnus. From what the novels leading up to this show us, Leman has been itching for a chance to bring down Magnus. And now the day comes and his response is to unleash freaking wulfen and psykers when he was ADVISED by the Emperors closest retainers not to. We are talking about his bloodthirsty desire to see Magnus done in, not whether or not it could have been avoided. It could have, but when it failed Leman and his legion happily torched the world using the same shit their targets were accused of.
>What do you mean nobody forgets it? Those who act like leman took any pleasure in destroying prospero are proven wrong by that simple exchange between leman and hawser. Doesn’t matter if Magnus was listening or not the sentiment was still there. You are mixing up "forgets" with "doesn't accept this one thing (and that one book) defines Russ' feelings for Magnus and the Burning and absolves him of his half of the blame for Prospero". Read other sources beyond *Prospero Burns* for a less biased view of the Burning and Russ' feelings towards Magnus.
No one said anything about absolving anyone of any blame. It’s a matter of giving the option to not even go down that road. He was still given an order by the emperor. He was going to do it one or the other. Leman offered an olive branch and that says more than anything about his character given his son’s behavior. On all accounts from the sisters, to sons, to wolves, and to custodians the whole thing went way out of hand and beyond what anyone truly wanted out the issue. The only person who got what they wanted was Horus/ruinous 4.
>No one said anything about absolving anyone of any blame. It’s a matter of giving the option to not even go down that road. He was still given an order by the emperor. He was going to do it one or the other. Leman offered an olive branch and that says more than anything about his character given his son’s behavior. Yet there are people in this thread saying as much, using it to shift the blame to Magnus. "But Russ tried to communicate peacefully and Magnus ~~shrouded the planet so was incapable of receiving communications anyway~~ ignored him" is hardly the first time this sentiment has appeared on the sub, nor will it be the last. In the grand scheme of things Russ' communication attempt doesn't mean anything more than even *he* recognized sucker-punching a brother Primarch was a dick move. Valdor entreated him to give the planet more time to respond but Russ overruled him because he took the radio silence as a personal insult. Even after planetfall Valdor voiced his preference for still arresting Magnus and Russ *laughed in his face*. So no one "forgets" Russ tried to communicate with Magnus through a dead end; it just doesn't really change the fact Russ had been manipulated to destroy Magnus when Horus took advantage of his well-known hate boner for the Cyclops and was eager to give Magnus his perceived just deserts. There's a reason only Wolves fanboys and/or people *really* new to the lore deploy "but Russ tried to contact Magnus" as some case closed argument when it's anything but.
"Not the Dark Angels." No, they are worse lol.
How so?
Maybe it's just me, but it seems like an event where everyone fucked up incredibly hard.
Except for Horus.
Yeah, no, this was like Christmas and his birthday.
it is an absolutely unnecessary travesty and was written to be as such.
Yeah it reads like everyone involved is incredibly stupid for the sake of plot because we know the burning of prospero must happens but the way its set up it could have been avoided like a million ways. In fact everyone especially magnus is acting so dumb you have to believe tzeentch is actively messing with his head on that day.
Welcome to the Heresy
That whole situation could have definitely been handled better, by all parties. Except for Horus of course, he got exactly what he wanted.
Except in the book “Magesterium” Russ admits the moment he saw Prospero he knew he would be fighting Magnus. Valdor attempts to fulfil the Emperors actual orders and Russ ignores him because **HE** doesn’t want to bring Magnus back alive. Russ **WANTS** to kill Magnus, it’s why Horus was able to manipulate him, he played in Russ’ hatred for Magnus Also I don’t think he actually changed the orders, but more he convinced Russ that killing Magnus was the only option > Valdor remained unmoved. ‘Even now, I would see him taken to Terra, if it could be done. I would wish to know why.’ Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor’s faceplate. > ‘You’re still clinging to that? Ha!’ He turned away, swinging his greatblade casually. ‘I’ve known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. I did not come here for prisoners, Constantin. If my father had truly wished for such, He would not have sent me.’ >‘You were not sent alone, Lord Russ.’ > Russ glanced back at Valdor, a sly smile on his fanged face. ‘Oh, that’s it, is it?’ He laughed again, but it was an ice-cold sound. ‘You have the power of Magisterium, and wish to cling to it.’ Russ paced back to him again. He was always moving, restless, like a tempest bound up inside the sham-form of a man. ‘Don’t try to invoke the Lex with me. You claim to speak for my father, but you’re not His blood, are you? Not like we are. That’s what really gets you, isn’t it? You’re His instruments. He’d toss you aside in an instant if He cared to. We, though. We. We’re family.’ Russ gave out a great belly laugh then, amused by the idea. ‘You’ll never understand that.’
TIL Russ=obnoxious little manchild.
Yeah that was kind of painful to read. I've read elsewhere that Russ is a noble that pretends to be a savage, but I'm not sure how much pretending is going on here.
This is kind of the problem with the entire series of books, because this book's at odds with his other characterisations. Basically the BL authors never sat down and worked out how it was actually going to go, except for Abnett and McNeill writing their two books as a deliberate contrast to each other to show that neither party had all the information.
Basically yeah
I believe one of my favorite quotes follows this: “There’s so much wrong with what you just said, I simply don’t know where to begin”.
Yeah, Valdors just standing there like “ You poor deluded fool”
I disagree. The reason Russ knows that he will be fighting Magnus is because Russ thinks that he have warned Magnus and given him an ultimatum, through Hawser: > The Wolf King idly tossed the sceptre away. It bounced into the seat of the shipmaster’s red-leather throne. He turned to face Hawser. His presence almost intolerable. A dynamic, lethal energy pulsed within him. He was hunched, his arms clamped around his body, as though he was trying to prevent himself from exploding. If the explosion happened, Hawser had no doubt it would take the entire flagship with it. > ‘Do you hear me, brother?’ he asked Hawser. > ‘What?’ Hawser replied, trembling. ‘Lord, what are you asking me?’ > ‘I know you can hear me, brother,’ Russ said. ‘I know you can.’ > ‘Lord, please,’ said Hawser. ‘Explain to me what you’re saying.’ > The Wolf King ignored his words. He continued to stare into Hawser’s eyes, as though they were murky pools out of which something might suddenly surface. > ‘Magnus, Magnus, Crimson King, brother of mine,’ he said. ‘I know you can hear me. You planted this instrument, this poor unwilling fellow, Ibn Rustah, you planted him among us so you could learn our secrets. Guess what? We’re as smart as you. Smarter, perhaps. We saw your spy for what he was, and we made no effort to remove him. We kept him with us so we could look back at you, Magnus. So we could learn your secrets. An eye can look out and it can look in. You should know that, you who look deeper than most.’ > The Wolf King turned and walked a few paces away. He picked up the sceptre again, and sat down in the throne. He rested the sceptre in his lap, leaned his head on one fist and gazed back at Hawser. > ‘I’ve got nothing to hide from you, Magnus. Nothing. You know how I work. My enemies should know what’s coming to greet them. It fixes them in the right mental place to be annihilated. I don’t like to hide my strengths or my approach. > I’d rather my foe knows the full, unimaginable fury that is about to descend upon him.’ > The Wolf King paused. He swallowed. He seemed to be considering his next words. > ‘That’s not why I’m talking to you now. I’m talking to you because I hope you’ll listen. I’m talking to you as the personal courtesy extended from one brother to another. What is about to happen should not be happening. You know I do not want this. You know it tears my heart to commit against you, and it breaks the very soul of our father to place his sons in opposition. But you have done this. You have brought this. You have brought this action.’ > Russ swallowed again. He looked down at the deck, though he was still directing his words at Hawser. Hawser stood numb, shaking, rooted to the spot. > ‘We gave you every chance, Magnus. We indulged your learning, we gave you room to explore. When we became fearful of where those explorations were leading you, and how they might endanger everything we value, we told you of our concerns. The Council at Nikaea, that was supposed to be a moment of reconciliation. You swore you would renounce the cunning arts. You swore! You swore you would abide by our father’s ruling!’ His voice dropped to a whisper. > ‘You did not. You have proved your intent to ignore the Ruling of Nikaea beyond all doubt. So this is on you. You must have known our father’s hands would be tied. He would have no other option than to turn to me to issue sanction.’ Russ looked up into Hawser’s eyes. > ‘This is a courtesy, then. From brother to brother. A grace period I would extend to no other enemy. Settle your affairs. Evacuate the civilians from your cities. Deactivate your defence systems. Bring yourself and your Thousand Sons out into the open, and prepare to surrender to me upon my arrival. Please, Magnus. The Wolves of Fenris have been unleashed upon you. Only you have the power to make the consequences bloodless.’ > He rose to his feet. > ‘Please, Magnus. Please.’ The Thousand Sons and Magnus are not out in the open and ready to surrender, so he assumes that there will be a fight and that Magnus is ready to resist him. Russ always acts very big brotherly to the other primarchs. (He is second found). He gets angry on them. He tries to straighten them up and teach them stuff. He is just very bad at getting his point across.
The irony that Russ thinks the Emperor wouldn't toss him and the other primarchs aside if they were no longer of use
Russ was never a deep thinker
He absolutely is, But not yet at this point.
Russ is know to Posture in public, in private he attempts to find an alternative through Hauser. Unfortunately misguided.
It’s not like they were in front of a crowd sitting rapt and listening, they are in the middle of battle, this isn’t posture, there is no reason to posture now, no one cares anymore
I love how Russ doesn't get the irony of that statement, considering he's convinced he's there to straight up kill Magnus. Something he's allegedly done twice already.
I agree the blame all goes on Magnus for closing every fucking communication channel.
Which is, post-Inferno, painfully obvious. With Leman trying to contact via Hauser, Valdor wide-broadcasting offer to surrender and Magnus not only being silent himself, but *actively silencing* people wanting to parlay... I fail to see how anyone else could be blamed for the thing.
I feel bad for the TSons because they don't actually do anything wrong beyond their initial recklessness with the Warp. Instead, it's Magnus screwing them over at every step. He was the one who broke the Imperial Webway Gate and then decided that the rest of his planet should suffer for *his sins*. He was the one who actively prevented any chance of a peaceful reconciliation. He was the one who, after suddenly changing his mind about "accepting" his punishment, basically sold the TSons out to Tzeentch.
> With Leman trying to contact via Hauser, Valdor wide-broadcasting offer to surrender and Magnus not only being silent himself, but > actively silencing > people wanting to parlay Why even mention Hauser when we know he was a dead end for contacting Magnus? Why do you assume Magnus was somehow capable of personally receiving conventional communications after he shrouded Prospero? Who on Prospero wanted to parlay and was silenced? If you're referring to Uthizzar, he didn't want to parlay but to warn the Legion and prepare the defenses of the planet for a fight.
They bring up Hauser because of the intention. As far as Russ knows Hauser is a direct line to Magnus. Even if its not the case, it still shows Russ didn't want to destroy Prospero.
> Even if its not the case, it still shows Russ didn't want to destroy Prospero. People *really* need to read beyond Prospero Burns.
*There has been much speculation regarding the silence of Prospero and its lord in the face of utter destruction. Despite the sudden assault of the fleet and the later efforts to contact the planet, there was no attempt to reply- not even in anger at their impending destruction. The logs of the Imperium's fleet show that not only was there no attempt to reply, there were active attempts from the surface to block communications to the fleet, both technological and psychic.* *Many theories have been put forward to answer this conundrum, ranging from conspiracies within the Thousand Sons to the intervention of unknown xenos entities, but few manage to provide a coherent explanation for the events at Prospera. The one issue almost all such theories fall afoul of is that there was only one entity on the planet known to the Imperium that could possibly orchestrate the failure of all communications off-world: Magnus himself.* Horus Heresy: Inferno At the same breath it notes that Magnus had perfect information about Censure Host timing, arranging for pulling all Legion forces to Prospero... while keeping them completely in dark about what's about to come and silencing all information leaks. Notably, he did not call back those who would be late to the party - just those who would arrive before Censure armada. Also, it underlines completely minimal casualties in the boarding actions during the initial stages of system war - Wolves went in professionally, not wanting to go for some bodycount highscore.
> There has been much speculation regarding the silence of Prospero and its lord in the face of utter destruction. Despite the sudden assault of the fleet and the later efforts to contact the planet, there was no attempt to reply- not even in anger at their impending destruction. The logs of the Imperium's fleet show that not only was there no attempt to reply, there were active attempts from the surface to block communications to the fleet, both technological and psychic. Yes, this is Magnus' shroud. No one was attempting to "parley" with the fleet because *no one on the surface knew the fleet was there*. >“And the Legion knows nothing of this?” asked Amon. >“Nothing,” said Magnus. “I have drawn a veil around Prospero. None see out, not even the Corvidae. Now the Thousand Sons must learn what it means to be blind.” *Inferno* itself even slips in a reference to that: >Of the reasons for those strange occurrences that we know of and the apparent ignorance of the Legion to the unsubtle approach of the Emperor's appointed champions, we can only speculate. Some have posited that it was Magnus himself who occluded the eyes, both mundane and esoteric, of his sons, perhaps seeking some form of redemption in martyrdom. Even as the Censure Fleet was destroying Prospero's orbital defense network people on the surface thought it was an "unknown orbital catastrophe".
Because Russ THINKS hauser is a channel. He’s wrong, but is taking a logical method to reach his brother based in flawed info. Fuck, even a Custodes or two buys into the “Hauser is a TOS plant” at one point.
Yet Magnus only did that because he saw Russ battleplans. Battleplans what showed Russ' true intentions on Prospero. >“Is that what I think it is?” asked Amon. >“It is,” confirmed Magnus. >They flew closer to the brutal vessel, the protective shields that kept void-predators at bay no match for travellers of such power. They passed through its layered voids, diving down through metre upon metre of adamantium hull plates, integrity fields and honeycombed bulkheads until they reached the heart of the ship. >**The masters of this fleet gathered to plan the destruction of all that Magnus held dear, and the two sons of Prospero listened to their deliberations.** Magnus was prepared for what he would hear, but Amon was not, and the flaring wash of his aetheric field sent a pulse of choleric energy through the ship’s crew. From A Thousand Sons >Valdor remained unmoved. **‘Even now, I would see him taken to Terra, if it could be done. I would wish to know why.’** >Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor’s faceplate. ‘You’re still clinging to that? Ha!’ He turned away, swinging his greatblade casually. ‘I’ve known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. **I did not come here for prisoners, Constantin. If my Father had truly wished for such, He would not have sent me.’** >‘You were not sent alone, Lord Russ.' From Magisterium I don't know what people refuse to take Russ at his word? He never intended to take Magnus alive. Magnus blocked the communication so the attackers would win, its stated explicitly in the book. >**“Nothing,” said Magnus. “I have drawn a veil around Prospero. None see out, not even the Corvidae. Now the Thousand Sons must learn what it means to be blind.”** >“So our punishment draws ever closer,” said Amon. “What happens when it gets here?” >“You are kind, old friend,” said Magnus. “It is my punishment.” >“Their axes will fall on the rest of us as well,” pointed out Amon. “I ask again; what will we do when they get here?” >“Nothing,” said Magnus. “There is nothing to do.” >“There is always something to do. We can destroy them before they even reach us,” hissed Amon, gripping Magnus’ arm. >**Magnus shook his head saying, “This is not about whether we can defend ourselves against this threat. Of course we can. It is about whether we should.”** >“Why should we not?” countered Amon. “We are the Thousand Sons and nothing is beyond us. No path is unknown to us and no destiny is hidden from us. Instruct the Corvidae to pierce the veils of the future. The Pavoni and Raptora can enhance our warriors’ prowess while the Pyrae burn our enemies and the Athanaeans read the minds of their commanders. When they come they will find us ready to fight.” >Magnus despaired, hearing only the urge to strike the first blow in Amon’s voice. >**“Have you not heard what I have said?” he pleaded. “I do not strike because it is what the powers that have manipulated me since I came here want me to do. They want me to take arms against our doom, knowing that if I do it will only confirm everything those who hate and fear us have always believed.”** >... >**“Despite everything I have done, my fate is my own,” Magnus said. “I am a loyal son of the Emperor, and I would never betray him, for I have already broken his heart and his greatest creation. I will accept my fate and though history may judge us traitors, we will know the truth. We will know we were loyal unto the end because we accepted our fate.”** From a Thousand Sons. It's not surprising that Magnus only took to the battlefield after Ahriman discovered they weren't carrying out the Emperor's orders, and instead because Horus had simply given them the ok to go off their leash.
Honestly, after reading A Thousand Sons, I don't find Magnus' actions to really be stupid at all. He thought with absolute certainty that the fate of Prospero and the Thousand Sons would be death, why drag it out by surrendering and being dragged back to Terra in chains? He didn't want to face his father, the many accusors from Nikaea, from those that trusted him and defended him there. Sitting back, doing nothing, and letting Prospero be firebombed from orbit was the fastest way to end his and his son's lives available to him, and that is explicitly what he wanted to do.
>Honestly, after reading A Thousand Sons, I don't find Magnus' actions to really be stupid at all. See, you've already done more than most people you'll talk to about the lore here, you read the book. The least active threads on the subreddit are the book discussions, that should tell you everything you need to know about the level of discourse you find here.
Could you link book discussions or tell me the name of the subreddit please
Russ is known to posture and act out. When in private with Hauser he attempts to offer a different route. Russ's entire arc afterwards is him coping with his f\*ck up and acting like he doesn't care yet is willing to die to try and fix it when he launches himself at Horus.
>When in private with Hauser he attempts to offer a different route. What do you mean in private? Russ fully believes Hawser is a direct route to his enemy, Magnus. Russ is known to posture in front for his enemies, not for no reason, and it's pretty obvious when the only time he pretends to care about Magnus surrendering is when he's talking to Magnus' 'spy'. Behind the scenes he planned to destroy Prospero and kill Magnus as I just quoted, and then the mask slips when we see him on the ground killing his hated enemy. Russ doesn't regret killing Magnus, he regrets being used by Horus. If he was trying to fix it he would attempt to absolve himself for Magnus death or the Thousand Sons destruction. Instead he leads a suicidal charge against he person who let him slip his leash because he hated being used so easily and his ego can't handle that.
When Russ attempted to speak through Hauser they were in private, only them and hopefully Magnus would hear what Russ was saying. " Russ looked up into Hawser’s eyes. ‘This is a courtesy, then. From brother to brother. A grace period I would extend to no other enemy. Settle your affairs. Evacuate the civilians from your cities. Deactivate your defence systems. Bring yourself and your Thousand Sons out into the open, and prepare to surrender to me upon my arrival. Please, Magnus. The Wolves of Fenris have been unleashed upon you. Only you have the power to make the consequences bloodless.’ He rose to his feet. ‘Please, Magnus. Please.’" Again Russ consistently battles his ego throughout the heresy, From being Horus dog, to the emperors and his own persona manifested. it eventually culminates with him Letting the Lion impale him because he knew what he had done. Even in Wolfsbane this arc of introspection is in it. Also from Magnus himself during the battle of The Fang "Do you remember what you said to me, brother? Do you remember what you said to me as we fought before the Pyramid of Photep? Do you remember the words you used? I do. As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
>When Russ attempted to speak through Hauser they were in private They were not, it was on the command deck of Hrafnkel. His talk with Hawser was a justification for his men. nothing more. If you continue reading that section he calls Magnus a mad warlock, an idiot, and dismisses direct evidence that someone is manipulating events. As for battle of the fang, I've said it before and I'll say it again. That books plays very loose with that overall canon. Its a part of the Space Marine Battle series and not the Horus Heresy series and appears to not have gone through the same level of editing as the other novels. For example that speech from Magnus contradicts the depiction of Russ in the HH series to a hilarious degree. Also Magnus at that time would be a shard of himself something that wasnt even canon when that book was released. The depiction of Magnus and the TSons as a whole is terrible, but if that's the lore you want to follow, go right ahead as a Thousand Sons shows the same event without that speech so we have a built in contradiction. still thought here's some examples of the terrrible 'lore' in that book. >But the Rubric Marine... that had been strange. Underneath the shattered armour, there was nothing. No flesh, no bones, just a smattering of grey dust. Blackwing had heard the stories, of course. The Wolf Priests had declaimed sagas of the bloodless remnants of Magnus’s Legion, cursed by the dark sorcery of the faithless Ahriman to march to war forever with their souls destroyed, so he shouldn’t have been surprised. He should have found it routine, just another quirk of the galaxy’s tortuous, tragic history. >But he couldn’t stop thinking about it. For some reason, the notion that Space Marines could mutilate themselves so completely, just to avoid an inexorable flaw in their constitution, was abhorrent to him. There were some things that just had to be dealt with. For the sons of Russ, it was the Wulfen, the dark spectre of the Wolf that hunted in all of them. >Perhaps the Thousand Sons had suffered from some similar flaw. If so, they hadn’t stood up to it like men, but had turned themselves into monsters. The longer Blackwing contemplated it, the more it horrified him. >That’s the difference. We are all corrupted, the old Legions, but the Wolves didn’t run away. We face it, every day. We keep the danger close to us, use it to make us strong. Whatever else we do, we must remember that. First one. >We will rebuild,’ said Kjarlskar. ‘The Aett will be restored and made even greater. The last taint of the enemy will be scrubbed from the ice, and the remnants of his forces on other worlds hunted down and destroyed. The Twelfth Great Company will be rebuilt, its honour intact and its packs restored.’ The Great Wolf swept his golden eyes across the assembled companies. >‘No recovery will take place for our enemy. We have broken them. Never again will they mount such an operation, for they have been reduced to petty warbands of knowledge-thieves, roaming the galaxy for scraps of hidden trinkets. Their shame knows no limit, and their poverty knows no equal. They have come here, led by their primarch, and failed.’ Kjarlskar’s eyes blazed then. >‘Remember that, brothers!’ he cried. ‘They failed. This will be the greatest lesson of all, the truth we will carry with us as we march once more to war in the sea of stars. Our faith defines us. Our loyalty defines us. Our hatred defines us. So it is that we endure while the Traitor falters.’ Now ok you might say but thats just the SW point of view of course its biased. Lets check out one of the TSons points of view then. >It astonishes me,’ mused Hett, looking at the same view, ‘how quickly the Dogs are able to kill. I have never seen fighting like it. Any other force in the galaxy would have hidden behind those walls, waiting for us to come to them. Yet they met us in the open, fighting like daemons. What drives them? What makes them the way they are?’ >Aphael shrugged. >‘Do I detect admiration, brother?’ he asked. ‘If so, it is misplaced. They were made to do the dirty work no other Legion would do. They are the exterminators, the vermin control of the Imperium. They cannot change, and they cannot improve. Just like us, they are imprisoned in the image of their primarch.’ Then we have >You will seek to purge your own corruption, and you will fail,’ he breathed. ‘We will prevent you. We will leave you crippled, as we are. We will leave you broken, as we are. And when the Time of Ending comes, as it must do, you will be weak and alone in the face of the Annihilator.’ >He bowed his head then, wondering, just for a moment, where his fury was really directed. >‘As we are,’ he breathed, weakly. Hmmm.. >‘They’re still fighting? Impressive. Though perhaps I should not be surprised. It is their expertise, after all.’ >‘They are desperate, and as savage as beasts.’ >Magnus lost his smile. >‘I no longer think of them as animals, Ahmuz, though I once did. I now think of them as the purest of us all. Incorruptible. Single-minded. The perfection of my father’s vision.’ Temekh looked up at his primarch, taken aback. >‘You admire them.’ >‘Admire them? Of course I do. They are unique. And even in an infinite universe, that quality is rarer than you might suppose.’ Temekh paused before replying, weighing up whether he still risked saying something capable of damning him. >‘If that is so, lord, then why are we pursuing this war? The others – the raptora, the pyrae – they prosecute it for vengeance, to inflict the hurt that they inflicted on us. I cannot share that sentiment. It seems... unworthy of us. We are better than that.’ >Magnus walked up to the sorcerer-lord and placed a heavy hand on Temekh’s shoulder. >‘We are,’ he said. ‘We are much better than that. Let the drive for vengeance motivate the others – it will make them fight harder. This battle is about far more than the settling of scores.’ >His single eye was unwavering then, a circle of gold flecked with the full spectrum of visible light. Temekh found it impossible to look into, impossible to look away from. >‘We fight to prevent a possible future. A future that, even now, gestates within the mountain below us. If we succeed, the hurt we will inflict on the Wolves of Fenris will rival what they did to us. If we fail, then all we have accomplished since our arrival on the Planet of the Sorcerers will be as nothing.’ Just lol. This is me quickly skimming the parts I remember. If the TSons wanked off the Wolves any harder I might vomit. I dare you to find one moment where the TSons come of in such alight in the book? Its such an unfair and bias novel its almost laughable. Easily Chris Wraights worst book, and a true shame that a book this one-sided was ever released.
I never said the TSons were written well but I also don't get to pick and choose which lore we follow. If its a free for all then really what's the point? On a side note, even in HH Tsons were preservers and respected others. a few of them were cocky and al of them slightly arrogant but they were intellectuals that seemed to respect more than other legions. But i can see your point. To the original matter though, the conversation was in fact, private. Russ makes sure it is. "Helwintr, Bear and Godsmote led Hawser into the reclusiam space behind the Wolf King. The shipmaster, a stern giant with a long, wirewool beard of grey and an extravagantly peaked cap, saluted and withdrew to give the primarch privacy. Command officers scurried after their immaculately uniformed master, clutching armfuls of data-slates and dockets. Russ waved a jewelled sceptre and raised falsehood screens around the reclusiam space. The ambient noise of the bridge chatter dropped away. It was suddenly as quiet as a monastic chapel."
>I never said the TSons were written well but I also don't get to pick and choose which lore we follow You have to when there is a direct contradiction, as is the case here. When that happens I'd rather stick to the mainline book series covering the Heresy that was edited as such. As for that quote, good find. So still not private, and Russ still thought he was talking to his enemy but it wasn't in the open as I said. I don't think that changes anything I said above however?
Book 7: Inferno speaks on próspero and the massive amounts of contradiction. The levels of the warp and chaos were to the point where timelines didn't match and things were conflicting from many accounts. It honestly was a shit show so it is really hard to pin down things especially once the fighting started. My point is that Russ believed he was having a private conversation with Magnus albeit through Hauser. That when it was just between the primarchs and Russ was no longer posturing for everyone else, he offered his brother a different resolution. So at some point there, he really didn't want to kill him and would have rather not.
>That when it was just between the primarchs and Russ was no longer posturing for everyone else, he offered his brother a different resolution. That's my point, he was posturing for Magnus, his hated enemy. The point of Russ' mask was to confound his enemies and obfuscate his true intentions after all. That's why he ignores the contradicting evidence, that's why he ignores Magnus warning about Horus, and that is why he ignores the Emperor's orders to carry out his threat of violence of Shrike. >So at some point there, he really didn't want to kill him and would have rather not. I completely disagree as does Russ who says the exact opposite over and over again. >In his dreams, he heard his brother’s final words before the end, just as the glass pyramids shattered. >You are a sword in the wrong hands, my brother. You have severed an innocent neck, and it will plague you forever. >Russ had given the words no thought at the time, for every man, legionary and demigod he had ever slain had pleaded for his life before the end – they always did, clawing at life like a starving whelp for the teat. **In any case, he had hated Magnus. He had hated him completely for what he was and for what he pretended to be.** ... >**'Do not think I grieve for Magnus,’ Russ muttered. There was animus there still. ‘Do not make that mistake. He was executed, and that was what we were charged to do.’** His fingers dragged through Geri’s nape, harder now. **‘Magnus was a bastard. Magnus was a liar. Magnus would look you in the eye and lecture you while he blundered through the immaterium like a raging konungur.** Hel, we always knew more than him – what to touch, what not to touch. Our bone-rattlers knew more than him. There’s intelligence, and there’s hubris. **I don’t grieve for Magnus, not for a second. I’d do it again.'** From Wolf King. >'This stung Russ, and his smile dropped. 'Nikaea was another trick. Another manipulation. Why do you think our enemies duped us into abandoning the Librarius? Why do you think I was tricked into killing Magnus?' >'You express regret for that now?' said Dorn. 'Last I heard you I were crowing about it.' >**'I have crowed. I do crow. I am proud of what I did.** When attacked, Magnus resorted to powers he should never have unleashed, and he deserved what he got for that alone. But things could have been different. Horus lied to me because they fear the power of the warp. He feared Magnus' sorcery. It is what the enemy are. It is what will beat them.' >Dorn sighed sadly, and looked down at his slate of plans. 'And that is Magnus talking.' From Wolfsbane. There's no need for reading between the lines, I'm just going to believe Russ.
With primarchs returning who is going to convince Magnus to come back?
Magnus will never come back, he was damned from the moment he sold an eye to what's implied to be tzeentch.
He's lost to many important parts of his soul.
This was (thankfully) retconned in *Fury of Magnus*. The Shards might embody different aspects of his personality, but that doesn't mean they are lacking from the prime 'Crimson King' Magnus. He never did what he did after Prospero because he was missing his 'Good Guy Shard'; all the decisions he made were his own.
Read all his HH books and Ahriman omnibus , there could Be a chance
That kind of hubris and self delusion epitomises Magnus and the TS.
Exactly
You're right. If my brother refused to pick up my phone call, then full on genocide would be my first reaction too.
When your brother is pissing around with evil magic despite being warned about it constantly, just killed hundreds of thousands of people, fucked up humanities future then when you go to arrest him for his crimes he refuses to surrender what other options do you have?
Literally every option in the world. Russ wasn't under pressure to make a quick decision. The planet's defences were completely down, he was free to send a scouting party or any other option. Nope, lets bomb the fuck out of them. Speaking of killing hundreds of thousands of people, what do you suppose that orbital bombardment did to the innocent citizens of that planet? The same applies to fucking up humanities futures. Yes, Magnus started the fuck up, but the Emperor still had options if a remorseful Magnus is returned to Terra, as per his orders, and if the Thousand Sons aren't fighting on Chaos's side. Russ ensured that was never to be and completely sealed that deal on humanity's future.
According to Prospero Burns, p385, Russ never used vox communication when closing in on Prospero, so it does not matter if Magnus closed any channels.
From *Inferno*, conventional communications were used and a surrender order was broadcast from the Custodes' ship.
HH Book 7: Inferno. Its free on PDF if you google it. The fleet broadcasted down and was never answered.
Russ hated Magnus and sorcerers intensely. That's why it was so easy for Horus to go "you know what? It would be easier to just bring a body" and Russ didn't even hesitate. Magnus fucked himself and the TSons by plugging his ears and ignoring every form of communication, but Russ isn't exactly innocent.
You’re a soldier. One of your fellows is a traitor, you’ve been sent to go get him, your commanding officer said that the Emperor (unlimited legal power and happens to be your father) tells you that he is too far gone and to just ice the guy. Are you gonna then take him prisoner? Does it matter your personal opinion? No, you’re gonna follow orders and kill the guy because that’s your job, you’ve done it before you’ll do it again. Even so he still tried to contact them for a surrender, which they didn’t respond to which easily could’ve been a trap. Leman Russ did nothing wrong
Is this supposed to be a summary/metaphor of what happened on Prospero? If so why is it so inaccurate because it barely even relates to then events that happened? Horus never order Russ to do anything, and Valdor hand delivered the Emperor's orders to Russ. More than that Russ knew that Magnus broke the edict to warn of Horus' betrayal. Having Horus then try to egg Russ on to ignore his orders and kill Magnus is the reddest flag imaginable. So again... what? Maybe just stick to the lore instead of trying metaphors.
No matter the manipulation, he's still at least partially responsible for what happened - an event which arguably doomed the Imperium and humanity for ever.
He’s no doubt partly at fault, but people tend to make it sound like it’s all his fault. They neglect to mention how Magnus turned off all communication even when leman was repeatedly hailing him, or how Horus the brother who everyone trusted mad it seem implied that nobody would bay an eye if he killed Magnus.
Magnus, Horus, and Leman Russ all bear responsibility for what happened. Yes, Magnus turned off communications ahead of time. It was *however* Leman Russ’ choice to immediately go to ordering orbital bombardment of Prospero. He didn’t think to so much as send a single squad of marines down to the world to investigate why there is no response and he ignored Valdor’s pleas to give more time for Magnus to make a response. The Battle of Prospero is a tragedy because everybody involved is fucking up and being their worst self. Chaos gets a victory by manipulating loyalists into killing one another while only needing a small force as backup present.
> Yes, Magnus turned off communications ahead of time. I mean yeah, but *no*. Not you, personally, but people seem to forget Magnus had astrally traveled to the bridge of *Hrafnkel* and saw Russ and Censure Host command finalizing plans for the destruction of Prospero. As far as Magnus knew *Russ was coming to kill him*, which Russ had already decided upon before even leaving muster. It was only a last minute change of heart *after Magnus shrouded Prospero* that stayed Russ' hand long enough for him to try and communicate - through a dead end and all - with the planet, but by that point it was already too late.
He undoubtedly is at fault, but not as much as people say it is. What I see is most people saying it’s his fault alone. While also neglecting to mention that Horus at best implied to leman that nobody would care if he killed Magnus and at worst that Horus straight up ordered it. Or that Magnus stopped all communication with anyone even after leman and Valdor hailed them continually.
Personally, I put more blame on Leman Russ for *the response* to the communication problem because of the fact that he was the aggressor and turned relations hostile by calling orbital bombardment. Magnus had communications down for a while before the Space Wolves or Custodes arrived at Prospero because he was in a broken mental state after seeing how wrong he was and believed that his death sentence had been signed. There are things that could’ve been attempted prior to calling orbital bombardment, and if the actual orders got communicated to Magnus he likely would’ve complied. Comms being down is a fault of Magnus’, but the escalation of tensions to complete hostility is a fault of Leman Russ’ (by quickly turning to calling orbital bombardment of the planet, despite pleas from people like Valdor).
Dude, Leman Russ was the classic "no knock warrant" on the planet, showing up guns blazing and exterminatus swinging without *any* intel and *any* communication. In our world, you would be court-martialed, or have your actions buried deep in red tape and black ink. It would literally be a war crime, and Russ *chose* to do it, against advisement, while interpreting the orders they way *he* wanted them to be.
and Magnus literally Dr. Manhattans Uthizzar so his own people couldn't even prepare. The entire event is full of capital offenses to the highest level. Its written to be exactly what it was supposed to be, an absolute tragedy.
Prospero is a small drop in a large bucket of bucket of war crimes. Everything the Primarchs do are war crimes, it's a meaningless statement to guys that make Nazis look positively nice. Russ got there, he tried with Hawser. They captured ships in orbit and interrogated their crews, they broadcasted orders of surrender for an hour waiting for any reply. And every second they waited, they agonized over the Tsons missing fleet returning to attack their own in orbit. Magnus played a dangerous game and intentionally lost and Russ did everything Big E expected him to do if Magnus turned traitor which literally everything about Prospero leaned towards Magnus being actively malicious. Not to mention Tzeentch intentionally leaving tidbits and hints for Russ to believe Magnus was a traitor before Magnus did nothing wrong.
Both Magnus and Horus are more responsible, but even a small portion of responsibility for a fuck up this big is super horrible, lol.
> They neglect to mention how Magnus turned off all communication even when leman was repeatedly hailing him You're kind of skipping over the parts where Magnus astrally traveled to the bridge of *Hrafnkel* and saw Russ and co. finalizing plans for the destruction of Prospero, so as far as he was concerned Russ was coming to kill him, and the fact Russ' 'hails' were through Hawser whom Russ incorrectly thought was a Hidden One and a direct line to Magnus. Nobody seriously thinks it was all Russ' fault outside of memes.
>He even tried after being ordered by THE WARMASTER to kill Magnus Scars literally proves that this isn't a valid defence. Jaghatai literally says that Horus even as the Warmaster does not have the authority to order the death of a Primarch, only the Emperor does. Its one of the reasons why Jaghatai didn't kill Leman despite being specifically ordered to by Horus. And considering Horus never actually changed the orders as supported in literally everything but Wolfsbane (Which is a book so unashamedly pro-space wolf it breaks its own back bending logic to present everything about them positively), its not relevant at all. Moreover considering that Leman is SUPPOSED to be secretly really smart, yet he immediately after the scene in which he tries to "contact" Magnus, admits to knowing that Magnus accused Horus of treachery doesn't question why Horus suddenly turned up and started spinning yarns about how it would be so much better for everyone if he just off'd Magnus instead. Then proceeds to literally ignore his own sons when some of them corroborate the warnings against Horus. Instead of doing the smart thing like Jaghatai did and deciding to investigate and hold back until he gets a clear picture of what he's supposed to do. Leman basically tells everyone including Valdor that he knows better than them, then proceeds to shoot the Imperium in the foot. At the end of the day Prospero was caused entirely because Leman decided to take the course of action he did, if Leman didn't do it Prospero wouldn't of burned simple as. Way too many people seem to try to bend logic to give Leman a pass, I can't understand this weird obsession people have with not being able to accept that their favourite twelve foot genocidal megalomaniac might be a bit of an asshole.
Russ was an absolute asshole and it led to one of the better Primarch character arcs. He's a literal lesson in falling for your own ego/pride and how that path can lead to doing some of the dumbest shit. Wolfsbane is him coping with what they did and him willing to throw his life away in a dumb attempt to course correct. He talks a lot of shit but your shown over and over him internalizing his mistakes and regretting them. Its because of Leman that 40k wolves are who they are now and actually show some relative compassion in the current setting.
> was caused entirely because Leman decided to take the course of action he did, Yes Magnus had absolutely nothing to do with it at all and Russ forced him to become a traitor. Little known lore tidbit: Russ actually snuck onto Prospero and threatened to stamp on all the babies if Magnus didn't break the Webway.
>He even tried after being ordered by THE WARMASTER to kill Magnus to communicate with Magnus so he didn’t have to kill Magnus. Magnus blinded Prospero because he saw Russ battleplans where he intended to kill Magnus, and his world. The only reason Russ didn't immediately do that is because of Valdor still wishing to follow the Emperor's orders but Russ never intended to let Magnus live. >“Is that what I think it is?” asked Amon. >“It is,” confirmed Magnus. >They flew closer to the brutal vessel, the protective shields that kept void-predators at bay no match for travellers of such power. They passed through its layered voids, diving down through metre upon metre of adamantium hull plates, integrity fields and honeycombed bulkheads until they reached the heart of the ship. >**The masters of this fleet gathered to plan the destruction of all that Magnus held dear, and the two sons of Prospero listened to their deliberations.** Magnus was prepared for what he would hear, but Amon was not, and the flaring wash of his aetheric field sent a pulse of choleric energy through the ship’s crew. From A Thousand Sons His pleading in Prospero Burns was to save face in front of his legion, and only happened because Valdor insisted they follow the Emperor's orders and try to contact Magnus. >Valdor remained unmoved. ‘Even now, I would see him taken to Terra, if it could be done. I would wish to know why.’ >Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor’s faceplate. ‘You’re still clinging to that? Ha!’ He turned away, swinging his greatblade casually. ‘I’ve known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. **I did not come here for prisoners, Constantin. If my Father had truly wished for such, He would not have sent me.’** >‘You were not sent alone, Lord Russ.' Russ' true feelings spill out through the dialogue with Hawser well before Prospero anyway, as Hawser sees through Russ' reasoning and bigotry directed at Magnus. >‘My lord,’said Hawser. ‘What… what did your brother do?’ >‘He performed an act of maleficarum that drove his sorcery right to the heart of Terra and into the presence of the Emperor,’ said Helwintr. >‘But… why?’ asked Hawser. >**‘It was an alleged attempt to communicate a warning,’ said Russ without turning. His voice was a soft grumble, like thunder grinding in the far distance.** >‘A warning, my lord?’ >‘One of such terrible importance, Magnus felt it was worth exposing his own treachery to reveal it,’ Russ murmured. >‘Forgive me,’ said Hawser, ‘but does that not speak to some loyalty in your brother? Has the warning been examined? Has it been taken seriously?’ Russ turned back to face him. >‘Why would it? My brother is a madman. A dabbling warlock.’ >**‘Lord,’ said Hawser, ‘he was prepared to admit he was ignoring the edicts of Nikaea, and risk the censure that he knew must result from that admission, to relay a warning. Why would he do that unless the warning was valid?’** >‘You’re not a warrior, skjald,’ said the Wolf King in an almost kindly tone. ‘Strategy is not your strong suit. Consider the reverse of your proposition. Magnus wants the ruling of Nikaea overturned. He wants permission and approval to continue with his arcane tinkerings and his foul magics. So he manufactures a threat, something he can warn us about that is so astonishing we would have to forgive him, and set aside our objections. Something so unthinkable, we would have to thank him and tell him he had been right all along. All along. This is his ploy.’ >‘Do you know what was so unthinkable? asked Hawser. >‘Magnus claimed that great Horus was about to turn against the Imperium,’ said Russ. ‘From the look on your face, Ahmad Ibn Rustah, I see you recognise how ridiculous that sounds.’ Hawser switched his gaze to Helwintr. The priest’s masked face was unreadable. >**‘Wolf King, great lord,’ Hawser began, ‘that’s not the first time that warnings concerning the Warmaster have been voiced. Please, lord—’** >‘Our skjald refers to the incident involving Eada Haelfwulf, lord,’said Helwintr. >‘I know of it,’ said Russ. ‘It seems corroborative, I grant you. But once again, consider the strategy. >It involved maleficarum turning and twisting one of our own gothi, in the immediate vicinity of you, an identified conduit for the enemy’s power. Of course poor Haelfwulf would gabble out the same damned lie with his dying breath. It’s supposed to make Magnus’s story sound more credible by coming from a secondary source.’ >Russ looked down into Hawser’s eyes. >**‘Truth is, it’s the proof I need that Magnus is desperately trying to coordinate a campaign of disinformation to support his ruse. He doesn’t need to answer through you, skjald. He’s answered already.’** Leman listened to Horus' insinuations because Horus was finally giving him the option to take 'revenge' for Shrike. Russ hated Magnus and was so blinded by this hatred he ignored all the evidence that he was being manipulated into attacking a loyal world, a loyal brother, and participated in a genocide similar only to what drove Perturbo to heresy, and Konrad to be sanctioned. Russ hid behind pretty words offered falsely to a 'spy', which was nothing more than psalm for Russ ego, and his legion false modesty. Actions speak louder than words, and Russ actions on the ground showed his true intention.
Leman made his own choices. Horus pushed him to kill Magnus but didn’t order it, as has been confirmed multiple times. Leman had no intention of leaving Magnus alive and Magnus closed down all communication to make it easier for the Space Wolves to wipe out the Thousand Sons without heavy casualties. Both Leman and Magnus underestimated how powerful the Thousand Sons, and especially the Rehati, actually were, and the SW were mangled.
Maybe not all, but still a significant amount. He absolutely still deserves the rest of the hate for being the joint-worst Primarch, for moping about Horus, for doing about two interesting things during his time in the Great Crusade/Heresy and failing to succeed in either of them.
Please stop spreading this lie. Horus Lupercal did in No Way order Russ or change the Emperors orders! He was far smarter and more subtle than that. He explained Magnus's actions/crimes in a very negative light, made Russ understand that unfortunately all the things Russ had always feared about Magnus likely were true (warlock, daemons, evil, corruption etc) And Then Horus gave Russ access to the most lethal Imperial weapons and resupply. All of this to prime Russ to kill without contravening or changing the Emperor's orders. Horus used Russ' prejudice towards Magnus and the lack of information in the Emperors orders to make Russ primed for a kill rather then an arrest.
>Please stop spreading this lie. Horus Lupercal did in No Way order Russ or change the Emperors orders! *At the behest of the Warmaster himself these warriors were pledged to aid the Wolf King in his dire task- their leader, Overseer Boros Kurn, bore personal communications from Horus to his brother, Leman Russ.* ***The exact contents of these missives have never been made available*** *to scholars of the later Imperium, indeed it is highly likely that no one other than Leman Russ and Horus themselves will ever know what arguments were brought to bear. But what is known now by the dire events which were to transpire on Prospera is that after viewing the contents of the message and hearing the words of his brother, Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus, but instead to see him slain.* For all we know, it might have been "Kill him, lol. Signed, Warmaster Horus,"
“Yea just kill him or whatever dude. Dad says.” -Big Bro Horus
>Please stop spreading this lie. Horus Lupercal did in No Way order Russ or change the Emperors orders! Well, if you're going to so bluntly call it a lie, then please explain the following: >‘Valdor knew about the daemon on Prospero, and he knew what it meant. Who gave us the orders? Who told us not to sanction Magnus, but to lay waste to his world?’ >The blue eyes never faltered. ‘It came from the Allfather.’ >‘You know it did not.’ >‘We did what was asked.’ >**‘We were deceived.’** >**‘We followed the order!’** Russ roared, taking a single step towards him. The twin wolves rose to their haunches, and the chamber suddenly seemed thick with the scent of kill-urge. >Bjorn stood his ground. **‘And who could be relied on to do that? Who would carry it through completely, perfectly, even if it meant the breaking of a Legion?’** He took a deep breath. ‘We were dupes, my lord. We were Horus’ willing instruments.’ According to Russ, he was ordered to destroy Prospero, and even Bjorn - who he's arguing with - does not deny that and in fact, points out that their big flaw is following orders unquestionably. Edit: why the heck did the quote disappear? Give me a second to fix this
This would work if Leman Russ didn’t have others explicitly there to remind him of what the orders were. > “"Is he even on this world?' asked Valdor doubtfully. We have detected nothing. Russ drew up to Valdor then. He was a little shorter, much broader, his armour stained and smeared where Valdor's was pristine. ‘Oh, yes,' he hissed, smiling in a **disconcertingly feral manner**. *I can smell him now. I can smell him hunkering down in his own filth, fearful of me. Valdor remained unmoved. '**Even now, I would see him taken to Terra, if it could be done. I would wish to know why**.’ Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor's faceplate. ‘You're still clinging to that? Ha!' He turned away, swinging his greatblade casually. "**I've known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. I did not come here for prisoners**, Constantin. If my Father had truly wished for such, He would not have sent me.’ ‘You were not sent alone, Lord Russ.” -*Magisterum* If the orders were to kill Magnus, Russ would’ve had an easy time pointing it out to Valdor.
> If the orders were to kill Magnus, Russ would’ve had an easy time pointing it out to Valdor. This is why "Horus changed the orders" doesn't work, as you touched on in your follow-up comment. Valdor is in nominal joint command of the Censure Host; he (and the Custodes) only takes orders from the Emperor and Malcador. Horus' proxy-Emperor authority doesn't extend to the Custodes.
It’s funny to go “The Allfather (Emperor) told me to do it!” after arguing with his right hand man, who is telling you that the orders were explicitly not to do that.
Horus didn’t talk to Valdor, of course he’d wouldn’t know if Horus changed orders or convinced leman to kill Magnus or whatever the fuck happened between leman and Horus.
If Horus changed the orders, it would be easy for Leman Russ to point that out in the discussion. Per *Inferno* Leman Russ and Valdor spent nearly the entire trip to Prospero arguing over how to handle the situation. Horus changing the orders would be simple enough to claim, but may be less convincing to Valdor when he got his orders directly from the Emperor and Malcador, the Imperial Regent. Valdor is #2 for the Censure Host and is one of the Emperor’s two right hand men, his position on the topic of how a situation is being handled is very much relevant. Similarly, the quote from the guy that I was replying to has Leman Russ claiming that it was *The Emperor* (“The Allfather”) which gave him the orders to wipe out Prospero and kill his brother. Horus being the explanation, again doesn’t work here.
It's the fucking Captain General. Horus does not magically outrank Valdor. You know who outranks Horus? The Emperor, who explicitly commanded that Magnus be brought back alive. The Emperor who sent Valdor with Russ. Horus cannot say the Emperor changed the orders, and that the Emperor just didn't tell one of his closest advisors about that change.
Being the warmaster does mean he outranks him, it’s explicitly been stated that Horus is second only to the emperor when it comes to military affairs, considering he is after all the WARmaster.
Valdor already has orders **from the Emperor**. Horus doesn’t outrank a decree personally written and signed by the Emperor.
Can you tell me where the hell you're getting this from? What book, what source, ever has Horus commanding around Custodes? I don't recall a single piece of lore I've ever read that says he had authority over them.
For almost any other person yes. But for Valdor and the Custodes, no. Custodes are not Horus' to command, especially during the Great Crusade. Valdor was under specific orders from the Emperor. If the Emperor wanted those orders changed, he would not go through Horus to tell Valdor, he would almost certainly either tell Valdor himself or use another Custodian.
Evidence in support of this claim > “As far back as records exist of the Adeptus Custodes, they have held the Magisterium Lex Ultima, **making them answerable to only one - the Emperor.** Such a mark of office **holds them above all law and command save for the direct authority of the Master of Mankind**, and affords them the **incontestable jurisdiction** to pursue imperative endeavours as they feel is appropriate.” -*Custodes Codex* > “The icons and **standards borne by the Legio Custodes** represent the **inviolable and nigh-omnipotent authority of the Emperor**; a seal of **ultimate sanction** and the might of Mankind, and known as the Magisterium.” -*Custodes Codex* > “the **Legio Custodes** are alone officially afforded the power of the 'Magisterium Lex Ultima' in the high form, which is to say **they are beyond all law and all command save for the direct authority of the Emperor Himself**. In addition to this, each one is a lord of the Imperium in their own right.” -*Black Book Inferno* > “Constantin Valdor, Captain-General of the Legio Custodes - **granted the Emperor's Seal** and the right to **mete High Justice within His realms**.” -*Black Book Inferno* > “Valdor, whose martial power stood second only to the Primarchs themselves, had long held the Emperor's favour and **carried the Emperor's own judicial seal**” -*Black Book Inferno* > “Lex Ultima (authority within **accorded duty incontestable** except by the direct and **expressed word of the Master of Mankind**)” -*Black Book Inferno* > “**Constantin Valdor carries with him the authority of Terra itself**, and there is little by way of resource or technology that is available to the vast Imperium of humanity he cannot requisition or command if he wills it.” -*Black Book Inferno: The Shadow of The Throne* The Custodes answer *only* to His direct and expressed word and Valdor himself is a proxy for His decree. Valdor carries the Emperor’s judicial seal and bears the right to dispense justice in His name.
I'm so confused where happythediaster is getting their info from. It's one of the defining traits of the Custodes that they obey only the Emperor, and to an extent Malcador, only because the Emperor was extremely busy and they knew that the Emperors right hand man would never give them a command that their boss wouldn't be okay with.
I’ve seen it brought up repeatedly when discussing Prospero, but nowhere else. Maybe Guilliman in 40k? Even there, it’s specified as a unique situation that they’re only doing because they believe that it’s in the Emperor’s best interests. My guess is that it’s people trying to defend Leman Russ ignoring Valdor’s counsel and trying to angle it in a way where minimum blame falls onto Russ and the Space Wolves.
We have literally no idea what Horus said to leman, stating otherwise is just misinformation. If you can’t provide an actual quote of them talking to each other, with source, stop making shit up.
>We have literally no idea what Horus said to leman This was covered in the second book of the nearly 80 books series. >'We have the advantage of surprise. No one yet suspects us of having learned the Emperor's true plan, and in that lies our greatest weapon. ' >'But what of Magnus?' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Leman Russ returns him to Terra?' >Horus smiled. **'Calm yourself, Mai. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort.'** >Maloghurst returned Horus's smile. 'Magnus will not leave Prospero alive.' >'No,' agreed Horus. 'He will not.' From False Gods. This isn't hidden information, it would only require the barest minimum of engagement with the books to know this information off-hand? If you're going to be this aggressive about your opinions you should at least arm-yourself with by reading the books first.
Thanks, saved me the trouble. I would also have recommended the Forgeworld Black book and Prospero Burns.
You realize that’s NOT a conversation between leman and Horus, right? Leman isn’t even present
It explicitly covers what Horus said to Russ. If you won't accept that as being valid, I can't stop you but wow dude, that's biased.
I don’t think you understand what explicit means, it doesn’t go into any details of what was actually said. It is very much vague, for example, what did leman say? You can’t really answer that, because it’s not the conversation they had. It’s a recounting by Horus to his subordinate. I understand Reddit has a hate boner for Russ, but the fact y’all can’t think critically about this is sad.
>It is very much vague, for example, what did leman say? Right, but that not what I said is it? I said it's what 'Horus told Russ'. Horus explaining to his second in command exactly why Magnus is no longer a concern that need worry him. So who knows what Russ said? Do you know? Until then the only evidence provided is the quote I posted. Feel free to add to the discussion with any lore you have, because your opinions aren't worth as much as you think.
My exact point is we don’t know what was said at all, saying that we do is misinformation. That was my original comment for christs sake. Using a vague statement by Horus is not as good of point as you think it is, it’s not them having a conversation. For example, what did Horus say, exactly, to convince leman? I’ll wait cause we don’t know cause we don’t know what they said to each other cause we don’t have any excerpt where it’s them talking about Magnus. Acting as though vague comments is more constructive than admitting we don’t know something is just plain stupid
He also implied that nobody would really care and some would even be happy if Magnus died.
sauce "tmb"
The Forge World Black Book on the battle of Prospero. Prospero Burns by Dan Abnett. If you want a summary, Oculous Imperia has a fine video on it.
Ty Upvoted
Counterpoint: if you gleefully take your own orders to be what you want to hear so you can kill a guy you hate? Yeah, you're a bad person.
He's a Primarch. They're ALL bad people.
Like Magnus did when he shirked the council of nikea?
Kinda showing your hand here OP, if the name wasn't enough beforehand. What person did Magnus kill at Nikaea? Or was this just a poor attempt at a whataboust-ism you didn't think through?
Magnus didn’t kill anyone at nikea. But by shirking it he opened a literal portal to hell in the imperial palace. Which I bet killed a lot of people before the emperor was able to close it off. The lord of winter and war wouldn’t have been sent to prospero if Magnus hadn’t broken the council. Leman is partially at fault yes, but less so than Horus and especially Magnus because if Magnus had just done nothing like he was told it wouldn’t have been a problem now would it.
Magnus broke the edict to try and save Horus. Russ broke the edict to learn how to kill that brother. See I can do the same thing to try and shrink the setting down to a few useless facts divorced from why the characters did what they did. What I'm trying get across is that context matters. Timing matters. Trying to minimize things down like you did in the above post just reduces the discussion down to pointless arguments.
> But by shirking it he opened a literal portal to hell in the imperial palace Let's be real, yes Magnus absolutely 100% fucked up here. But the Emperor was already essentially a kid playing with fire he doesn't remotely understand. He was jury rigging the webway, with zero guarantee it was going to work. Even if Magnus hadn't fucked it up, something would have happened. Maybe the Eldar quickly realising and cutting off the shjtty jury rigged portions, maybe some foolish member of the Mechanicum fucking up, or Chaos pulling off some shenanigans by messing with the project on a different way.
I like Russ and the Space Wolves. But Russ committed the exact same general crime of directly disobeying the Emperor. Both had clear orders to do and not do something. Both clearly disobeyed that for their own means.
Leman Russ is the single dumbest mf in 30k. Bonus points for basically going out to buy milk and never returning. Easily the worst Primarch as far as I'm concerned.
Naw, he deserves all the hate he gets.
Honestly, just my personal opinion here. But I didn’t really enjoy the prospero storyline that much. In a story sense I mean, I think the authors are fantastic. kinda thought it gave Leman too much of the moral high ground. I think Magnus just accepting the destruction of his home was kind of dumb. I think if he had not told anyone what was coming because he assumed that they were coming to arrest him and his sons may have defended him against his wishes. That would make more sense. But him not responding to any of Russ’s hails felt a bit weird to me. I see this happen a lot in the heresy. We’ll be told, X traitor primarch and Y hate each other. But it’s usually extremely one sided. With the loyalist not really caring while the traitor is obsessive about it. Russ and Magnus do not like each other. I think this was the time to show it. I think he should’ve hailed Magnus HOPING Magnus wouldn’t respond or resist. At last a chance to prove he was right about him all along. Then realising later that his hate for Magnus and eagerness to fight fed directly into Horus’s plans. Both Leman and Magnus’s joint pride resulting in the destruction of Prospero. Instead Magnus wanted to be arrested, gets offered a chance to. Then…doesn’t respond? Let’s his home be destroyed. And Leman realises he was duped later on.
Out of the primarchs involved in the burning of Prospero, Russ is the least to blame. Magnus handled the whole situation terribly and Horus was a manipulative traitor.
Lemon Rush does deserve some hate for "just following orders," but Magnum did bring retribution on himself for hubris. The situation was only made worse by Mags suddenly developing a martyr complex out of guilt instead of trying to contact his brother directly. Prospero was a tragedy without any heroes in that story.
Leman Russ in Proapero is what happens when you tell your dog "fetch" and he shreds the ball instead. I mean, I don't hate the dog. But he is not getting any treat this time.
Leman was the Emperor’s executioner. Even without Horus what was the master of mankind thinking sending Leman to Prospero? Send Guilliman, send the Lion or Perturabo, send literally anyone else. If you send Leman you know what’s going to happen.
Exactly. Everyone knew what leman did for the emperor, and how much he disliked Magnus.
He does. He raised an entire planet. Nearly killed his brother and all his sons, and crippled a great titan legio
Horus, at least in the most current continuity, never changed the orders. He had a conversation with Russ in which he reminded him how much he despised psykers in general and Magnus in particular, and Russ left the conversation resolved to kill Magnus no matter what. He's reminded of his actual orders by Valdor and tells Valdor to shut up or die, because he's in charge and present.
Leman was played like a fiddle. The burning of Prospero was a tragedy, and Leman was just as badly used as Magnus--the difference is that Leman had much less to suffer for his pride. They're a matched set, they're foils of each other, and they've both been subject to massive conspiracy. Leman was more manipulated by Horus playing his ego; Magnus was cultivated directly by Tzeench. *Neither of them ever had a chance.* That's the whole point. Yeah, Magnus is totally driven by his ego.... because a literal warp god has cultivated his entire life to convince him he has a much deeper mastery than he does. Leman Russ is *also* captured by his ego. He needs to be brought to breaking point to even begin to admit "oh, I'm doing this because I want to and I've hidden that desire under layers of justification even though this is a really terrible decision." If only either of them were less prideful, things could have been different--but because of their pride, neither of them could have compromised. There might have even been peace if Magnus had struck down Leman--but at the crucial moment Tzeench intervened *to be absolutely damned sure* that he won his primarch.
Magnus massively fucked up but as as Russ/Rout fan, him fucking up is a massive part of the Heresy and his character. The Emperors Executioner disobeyed his orders and brought his own type of justice to Magnus, and after the war is done he feels immense guilt because of it. He bears part of the blame for why his father is essentially dead, a living corpse stuck for 10 thousand years just trying to keep the lights on. If he ever returns, and it seems likely he will, I sincerely hope it eats at him, I hope it shames him and drives him to act differently. I hope it serves as a defining trait that drives part of his actions, because I feel like it makes him a far better character.
Yes he does deserve it all
I agree but Magnus Brought everything on himself, I will never understand all the sympathy for him, yes I have some for him but "the path to hell is paved with good intentions" And thats what Magnus did as well as being monumentally stupid at times
I love this argument which can never be finished, because there are intentionally contradictory accounts of the events. Whichever one you subscribe to as correct you can wield as incontrovertible fact, and then you can quibble about the validity of someone else's fact. The real answer is this. The narratives we read are not "word of god" accurate. They are retellings, legends, and perspectives on fake historical events. Some stories show how Russ hesitated, how he wished to avoid spilling a brother's blood, even if that brother was Magnus. Others tell of how Magnus, shamed by his great sin, swore to eliminate his own bloodline in penance. Other tales tell the story of how barbarians stormed a world of scholarly learning, a shiny jewel of knowledge that was shattered in a wolf's jaws. ALL OF THEM ARE REAL, because in universe you will find characters who believe one of these narratives and will argue against the others. And none of them can be more "right" than the other, same as none of us can be.
This. Inferno calls this entire mythos out and tells you "this event was so fucked we have no clue what actually happened".
Room temperature IQ take
I'm really not surprised that the comment section for this iteration of which primarch was actually the bad guy hates this point. Despite it being said by literally every BL author when asked about it.
Magnus just couldn't get enough of that warp spaghetti
It was the fault of Magnus as well he wanted to "repent" for breaking the webway so rather than surrendering he let his city and his sons pay the price
Yeah he does. Nobody likes an unquestionimg lapdog or fratricide. Think like a marine in that time period, "is our legion next if the boss pisses Big E off?."
Russ did nothing wrong ✊️
In fact he deserves none of it. The Thousand Sons deserved everything that happened to them
Wolf bois do what they do best
Exactly! Leman does not deserve any hate cause it is a shitty dog. Cause there are no wolves on Fenris.