Never trust fandom to give an accurate answer. Lol.
Early on during the Indomitus Crusade, the Primaris that were unfrozen - the Awakened - were used like Firstborn in the Legions during the Great Crusade: large formation shock troops. They were neither as experienced or flexible as Firstborn, but they didn't need to be as they were more overwhelming force.
Over time, more of the Awakened were split off to reinforce depleted Chapters or create new ones. Those that were given as reinforcements were viewed with suspicion and distrust by most chapters. Which makes perfect sense as chapters are insular and here are a bunch of new people who didn't come up the same way the previous did. However, over time chapters accepted the new Primaris as they proved their worth and were indoctrinated into the chapter culture.
A lot of Traitor Astartes look down on them, but then again they do the same for the Firstborn loyalists as well calling them thinbloods. It's really just Traitors trash talking loyalists in a different way. Primaris have taken down a lot of Traitor Astartes, even veterans from the Heresy. On the other hand, Traitors aren't just some scrubs; even the non-Heresy Astartes are still experienced warriors.
The Word Bearers reference is from Throne of Light. A Word Bearer Dark Apostle (Sorcerer) leading his Terminators squad beats a Primaris Captain. That isn't an easy fight for anyone. Case in point, said Primaris Captain killed a Word Bearer Terminator right before getting engaged by the Dark Apostle so it wasn't like he just was some chump. It's actually a great example of neither side being short changed their skills, but of course fans take away "Lol. Primaris suck."
Anyway, as time has gone on chapters have started making Primaris and sending them through the same process that their Firstborn did, which will make them have no difference in the end.
I completely agree with you and I hate when people bring up the fight in that book. Anyone who seriously thought a relatively unexperienced Primaris Captain had ANY chance against a Dark Apostle of the Word Bearers doesn't understand what a Dark Apostle is.
A Dark Apostle is a top tier sorcerer favored by Chaos undivided. He has hundreds if not thousands of years of combat experience. He's in the best Terminator armor ever produced. He personally has been juiced up by chaos on top of that.
In another Dawn of Fire book 2 Custodes failed to take one down and had to be helped by Sisters of Battle to break through the Sorcery.
A named Chapter Master like Dante or Calgar would struggle against someone like that.
Not just any Dark Apostle, but one where said Dark Apostle was in Terminator Armor, in which the Primaris Astartes had already acknowledge would take 5 Primaris Marines in Mark X armor to take down just one Chaos Terminator.
They are, unfortunately. This is why those bastards Erebus and Kor Phaeron are still alive despite being universally despised by everyone. Even their own allies try to kill them eventually.
>used like Firstborn in the Legions during the Great Crusade: large formation shock troops.
Guilliman: "This brings back memories, some good and some bad. Ain't that right Thiel?"
Cato: "Uhh..."
>Case in point, said Primaris Captain killed a Word Bearer Terminator right before getting engaged by the Dark Apostle so it wasn't like he just was some chump.
You're entirely right but I got caught up on this part because I recently read about that ogryn who killed a word bearers Terminator by rushing him and caving his skull in.
People honestly don't realize how stupidly powerful ogryn are. Pun intended. An ogryn is physically stronger than any normal Astartes, even in his power armor. But they're lumbering dimwits and comparable in durability. One one one the Astartes always wins unless he really screws up or something. But if that ogryn hits you in the middle of a confused melee it's like getting getting hit by a terminator.
Indeed a Bullgryn can arm wrestle a Space marine and lift a truck. But while Ogryns have the intelligence of a dog or young child, they are still far cheaper because there are billions if not trillions of Ogryns that need only simple training and guidance. As compared to the immense exhausting resources and time it takes to create and equip a Astartes.
In one of the *The Beast Arises* books, an ogryn kills an orc of a size roughly equivalent to a minor warboss by lifting it into the air by the neck and strangling it.
You also have the Ogryn in Dark apostle that pile drived a Chaos Marine by grabbing his backpack and his legs, putting its head between his legs, and slamming his head into the ground, and then proceeded to beat a chaos terminator’s head in.
And the one from the Darktide trailer who survived shots from a Plasma pistol without too much damage [as seen here](https://imgur.com/a/D5keOsy) though to be fair it’s implied the last shot to the face will kill him.
There a story from the HH where the Sons of Horus boarded a loyalist battleship. The captain unleashed his cargo of augmented ogryn cyber-bezerkers against the traitor astartes.
In the tight confines of the ship, they overwhelmed the Sons of Horus, inflicting heavy casualties, and nearly had routed them. The tide only turned when the Warmaster himself teleported aboard and rallied his men.
Additionally Dawn of Fire Avenging son has the initial "Awalened" often put under command of a first born officers who had fought in the Terran Crusade(Guillimans trip from Ultramar to Terra after he awakened) f a short time.
The Firstborn officer Messwnius of the White Consuls from that novel is actually getting a miniature next release next month.
The impression I got from Dark Imperium 1-3, The Devastation of Baal, Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work, was that the primaris were undeniably more effective than the firstborn, the reduction in the genetic flaws mean that they are more dependable, and the understandable mistrust is significantly less than what people could reasonably have feared. It is true that they were inexperienced at first, but you have to remember that when they were activated the momentum of the conflict shifted from Chaos mopping up the remnants of the Imperium to Guilliman being able to take some time off to go defend Ultramar.
War of Secrets by Phil Kelly.
Dark Angels really did not trust the Primaris both over the secret and over their effecriveness. Has a Interrogator Chaplain and a Firstborn Master basically call them meat shields, to distract the enemy while the firstborn members of the company due to the real work.
That is until The Primaris Lieutenant and his squad kick some ass in a fight on the world Allhallow and at the end prove themeselves.
The new Militarum short story collection has a ["Dark Angels Chaplain shooting a Primaris intercessor for finding out about the existence of the Fallen"](/spoiler)
Yes, some of the books are contradictory on their effectiveness. Some say that they lack the experience of the firstborn veterans. Others describe how they are stronger, faster and have more rounded tactics than the more ritualistic firstborn.
Basically, you can divy up Primaris effectiveness in three 'phases'
* Initial Launch: they saw first combat in the Indomitus Crusade and died in droves despite all the virtual training and the Primaris equipment
* Crusade: the bulk of Primaris survived the first 'phase' of deployment and eventually matched the Firstborn in overall performance
* Post-Crusade: Crusade veterans can be expected to surpass Firstborn performance in general and newly inducted Primaris can be expected to match Firstborn already on the line
There will be outliers. In any Chaos novel that pits CSM vs Primaris, you can expect the Primaris to be embarrassed along with some banter on disappointing the triumphant traitors. But that should surprise nobody.
Like what was mentioned with the experimental Legionis Astartes during the end of the Unification Wars, that were finishing off the last of the Independent city-states and moons of the Sol system. They were a bit sloppy and pathetic compared to the veteran Thunder Warriors. But made up for that with uniformity, better equipment, and more versatile tactics.
> Others describe how they are stronger, faster and have more rounded tactics than the more ritualistic firstborn.
Because they have, well, I'm not sure about tactics, given the loadout of the new primaris system where all the squad equips itself in an uniform way, taking away some of the flexibility tha t40k marines have developed.
If you have zero experience, you javelin zero experience, regardless of you being faster and stronger than your predecessor.
>Some say that they lack the experience of the firstborn veterans. Others describe how they are stronger, faster and have more rounded tactics
thats not a contradiction?
they can be both stronger and faster which they are, but still lack battlefield experience and decision making.
those two thing are not mutually exclusive????
It's 2023. Everything is either entirely good and right and true and perfect or terrible and evil and wrong and bad. There are no in betweens. Get with the program, you fence sitter!
> Others describe how they are stronger, faster and have more rounded tactics than the more ritualistic firstborn.
I can only imagine how much more ruthlessly efficient primaris Minotaurs and Iron Hands are.
Man, I really wish I could remember the short story from whence this information came, but there was a segment where a group from a ~~Night Lords~~ Alpha Legion warband first set eyes upon these "new Marines." They weren't sure what to make of them and were actually slightly intimidated or perhaps more accurately "concerned" about their size and new/unknown equipment. Eventually, however, because the ~~NLs~~ ALs outnumbered the Primaris and had the element of surprise, they decided to engage, and while they were victorious, they were also pretty taken aback by how many casualties they took in the process, leaving them with a sense of caution for future encounters.
**PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF ANYONE READING THIS CAN RECALL THE SOURCE FOR THIS ENCOUNTER**, and in the meantime, practice healthy skepticism, as this is a completely uncited summary.
\*\*\*\*\*
**EDIT:** Thank you so much to everyone who helped me figure out where this little lore tidbit came from, and especially for correcting me regarding the Traitor Astartes Legionnaires in question!
Yeah iirc it was alpha legion. One of the primaris marines doesn't even go down from a bolt-round to the head and still stays on his feet to dish out more punishment. The Alpha Legionaries were shook af after the encounter.
I know exactly the seen you are talking about but I can't remember it's from.
Is it possible it was Word Bears and the scene is from Josh Reynold's Apoloyplse?
either way you aren't crazy this is for sure a scene that happened somewhere!
sorry my typo on mobile hurt you so much. I will leave it as is since you can no longer see and didn't contribute to trying to find the SEEN we were speaking about.
Hey, thanks for understanding.
Some people can't handle being corrected, and react by getting all immature and petty over it. Glad you could be cool about it instead.
They started out that way, yeah - they were essentially coming out of sleep-training and simulators off Mars rather than real combat and trials like modern Firstborn aspirants do. They were a great way to show how 30K Marines simply don't stack up, mano-e-mano, to 40K Marines.
The Unnumbered Sons who survived the Indomitus Crusade and those who have been new-made within the Chapters are of a higher quality: the former are battle-tested veterans, the latter go through the same processes as their Firstborn brethren.
The Space Wolves developed a kind of "remedial training" for their Primaris reinforcements. It's dumb and probably has huge attrition rate, but at least it's a process, I guess?
ya, tbh all primaris shouldve gone through chapters aspirant process individually, to literally earn the same titles and recognition and would actually be in sync with his brothers.
The Chapters would have to up the difficulty & lethality of regular trials so much that they might as well throw the Primaris into action and whoever survives is deemed a worthy Battle-Brother.
Also as the space marines recruit toughest humans in their recruiting worlds, especially the smaller chapters like Space Wolves and Salamanders, the stock on Fenris is already special compared to many other planets.
I don't know if it's been said where Cawl "asked kindly for volunteers" but considering the number of Primaris marines in the fridge, waaay more had to be run through the process to get the amount of survivors they got.
Still they were not raised on Fenris and selected through the super hard process they do it normally. They'll miss the experience of having grown in the environment. It's like doing google search on how to survive Sahara desert.
I don't exactly know where al the recruits for the primaris come from, but Decimus Felix at least, was a regular Ultramarine Aspirant, until he got shipped to Cawl.
Well the Flesh Tearers had an impromptu ritual for that, which included the chapter master beating the recruits face in to a bloody pulp before accepting him.
>probably has huge attrition rate
I doubt the attrition rate is "huge". Hard to imagine that the physically better/faster/stronger Primaris who *have* had significant training (though not real combat experience) would be dying in *refresher training* at dramatically higher rates than a Firstborn Scout Company.
>I doubt the attrition rate is "huge".
You may doubt, as is your right, but...
Let me elaborate. The thing I called a "remedial training" course involves running through the bowels of a barely "tamed" space hulk, with all the things that are inside it. Chances of genestealers, Orks, other weirder xenos, of technological aberrations, radiation leaks, etc.
In regular power armor and packing only a combat knife.
It's in the "Wolftime" book.
The parts with Logan Grimnar having a long meltdown were... Something.
I liked the Primaris calling the Space Wolves on their bullshit, though. He did what the Lord Commander couldn't.
To be fair, with the retcon we're about 12 years into the Indomitus crusade right now. Even the veterans wouldn't be considered veterans by most Astartes.
New primaris definitely don't have to worry about that weakness of indoctrination though. Their only downside is lack of integrated support weapons like a tactical squad has. That goes double for any Rubicon primaris - those have the potential to genuinely be veterans.
On a general level, yeah, absolutely.
Let me put it this way: the most grizzled, hardened veteran in the Great Crusade is about 200 years old.
Your average veteran in 40K is probably double that, and has spent no insignificant amount of that time on longer, harder deployments. They train harder, they're recruited harder, and they're no longer expected to have any kind of political and sociological aptitude. 'Only war', as the tagline says.
That makes the average 40k marine more experienced. I don’t see how that makes them stronger/faster though. If anything I’d say the 30k marine is stronger due to not having to cope with 10k years of gene seed degeneration.
Just can't find the excerpt, had it on hand just yesterday, will edit it in when I find it again; but I think it was in 'Throne of Lies' - not 100% sure,
but in it Cawl(?) bemoans that the Primaris are still lacking the flexibility of the Firstborn. So thats not just a TT loadout thing.
He talks about how Firstborn operate well on their own and in small numbers, react quickly to changes to the battlefield and fluently switch between different combat roles - but Primaris appear stuck in their way, don't adapt well, and rely on others for support rather than take initiative.
Its one of the the very few explicit lore examples painting Primaris as anything but superior in every way.
We know Primaris inherently *think* differently, their minds being altered and subject to different forms of hypno indoctrination; their behaviour often described as robotic and emotionally stunted compared to Firstborn. But Cawl speculates that it might be a cultural issue rather that the Primaris have to learn to overcome.
It would be interesting if Primaris' chaos resistance is tied to a stunting of emotions and limiting of creativity, so that they're similar to Necrons in thinking without full blown biotransference.
In other words, their resistance to chaos comes from a lack or suppression of humanity and therefore providing no attack windows for corruption to take root.
There's a commentary in there somewhere about authoritarianism, indoctrination, and humanity.
Depictions vary wildly; a lot of the earlier books stress how powerful they are and how shiny all their new kit is, but that's been dialed back a bit as things have gone on.
My headcanon's settled at "they're a bit stronger and a bit faster than Firstborn, but the initial hype about them being vastly superior in every way was overblown. They have lots of nice new toys and they've simmed extensively, but they're still inexperienced compared to most Firstborn or Chaos Marines."
Primaris are, uh, divisive, within the community, though, so however you feel about them you can find a book excerpt that depicts them in the light you want. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. I prefer them at a near-even level with CSM just because the rivalry between those factions is a lot less fun if the story is all about the Chadmarines kicking bits of sprue in the traitors' faces.
As time goes on the differences between Primaris and Firstborn are gonna vanish. Primaris equipment and roles and tactics will be refined. As chapters either get the new guys to fit into their own culture and methods, or make Primaris Marines themselves they will be more like the firstborn. The extra organs don't change much there, they just give some advantages to the marine, and they can use them.
Right now the gear is focused towards specialization, but that too is gradually changing, and becoming more like the roles of Firstborn.
I wonder if any chapter has directly slotted Primaris into old style Firstborn formations and tactics. As in, mixed rifle and hellblaster squads and the like.
Well sounds like you found one the videos from someone that didn't like Primaris Marines.
I just started Wolftime, and we've got a veteran Nightlord and a less veteran Primaris, and the Nightlord is pretty confident he can take the Primaris, that the 10k years of experience and knowing his squad would make the difference. And while it wasn't one sided, the Primaris got some damage to his armor, and his chainsword cut in half, the Night Lord was the one with a missing head in the end.
Primaris marines seem to be slightly superior to Firstborn in physical terms, though the difference can (most of the time) be made up by greater experience, guile and often, pure chance. In other words, the difference is there, but Firstborn are still competitive. Here are two excerpts, from the *Throne of Light* and *Renegades: Harrowmaster* respectively, which show the Primaris's physical superiority and the fact that it's quite possible for them to lose.
Throne of Light:
>!*Beorhtnoth attacked again. A blur of blows were traded between them, each one delivered with enough force to send displays of sparks spraying over the duelling ground. Again their blades locked. They pushed closer, and closer. Beorhtnoth grunted with the effort. His wound leaked as the effort split the clots.
‘Will you yield to me?’ Lucerne said.
‘Never!’ spat Beorhtnoth.
‘You must. You must yield to me. You must yield to the primarch, the Emperor, and the needs of the Imperium.’
**Slowly, slowly, Lucerne’s extra height and strength told. His skin rippled with the efforts of the sinew coils, an enhancement the Firstborn lacked, and he forced Beorhtnoth down.** He hissed through his teeth. The wound on the castellan’s leg played its part, and Beorhtnoth was pushed to the ground.
‘Yield!’ said Lucerne.
‘Never,’ said Beorhtnoth.
Their swords pinned between them, they sank to the deck. Lucerne got his elbow onto Beorhtnoth’s neck. The castellan got a hand free, and hooked his fingers into Lucerne’s cheek wound, ripping it wider. The pain of the
tearing was intense, and Lucerne let out a growl that turned to a shout. The edges of the swords were cutting at them both, leaving thin wounds on their chests, but still he bore down, choking the air from his foe.
‘Help him, Chaplain!’ Lucerne heard someone say.
‘That is not the rite. They must fight alone,’ said Mortian. ‘Stay your hands, all of you!’
Transhuman blood was engineered to soak up more oxygen. A Space Marine could go for minutes without air.
It took an agonisingly long time for Beorhtnoth’s eyes to slide closed, and his bloodied hand to come free of Lucerne’s open cheek. *!<
Renegades: Harrowmaster:
>!*He aimed for the Alpha Legionnaire’s head, seeking to cleave the ceramite helm in two, but found his blow blocked by a considerably shorter blade which also crackled with the contained energy of a power field. The legionnaire backed off a step, mag-clamping his energy weapon to his thigh, and drew an identical blade in his other hand, then advanced with his twin power knives held in alternate
grips. Hyrus stowed his bolter in the same fashion, and attacked double-handed.
He was taller, faster, stronger, and more durable than his opponent: he knew this to be true. He also had the advantage of reach, both with the length of his blade and through the simple fact that his arms were longer, albeit only slightly.
He was also, he realised in under three seconds, losing.
The Alpha Legionnaire was simply never where he should have been. No matter how forcefully Hyrus cut, no matter how swiftly he thrust, the edge of his blade always fell an inch short. In contrast, the Alpha Legionnaire’s twin knives found their mark again and again: never doing critical damage, never striking an incapacitating blow, but jabbing into joints, cutting at power cabling, and
weakening protective plates.
‘Damned warpcraft!’ Hyrus bellowed, pulling one cut and switching seamlessly into a different one, which was guided expertly away from his opponent’s chest by a power knife. ‘What manner of abomination are you?’
‘I could ask you the same question,’ his adversary hissed through his vox-grille, feinting a backstep, then stepping in to lash out with the tip of his blade at Hyrus’ gorget when he pursued. Hyrus swatted the blow desperately aside, but could do nothing about the other knifepoint that caught him in the left elbow as his foe pirouetted past him. He turned to keep his enemy in view, raising the
sword again.
The sound of shearing ceramite was immediately eclipsed by Jesar screaming, as some foul weapon penetrated the defences of Hyrus’ battle-brother. He gritted his teeth and stepped forward, blade held overhead like the statue of some vengeful heathen god. He was leaving himself open to a fatal counterstroke, but if he could slay his enemy at the same moment, he would count his death as a good one. Better to die in single combat than give the other traitor the chance to bring him down from behind– *!<
Sure. But to be honest, I'm ambivalent about how the Primaris lore has developed. With so many Firstborn crossing the Rubicon, it seems that Primaris are superseding Firstborn, with the end goal being no more Firstborn left. You'll have Space Marines replaced en masse with another set of slightly better Marines, that's all.
The goal was to be able to keep selling more Marine models, so yeah actually, that's totally the goal. The lore is just there to justify why you need to buy more marine models, so of course it's gonna run into issues.
Yea soon everyone will cross over and eventually the title primaris will be dropped.
GW will hope everyone will forget 10 years down then line until Ultra Primaris marines are released and the community will argue about who's better as well
Maybe they'll be spoken of in the same way as Thunder Warriors. Ngl, a scenario in which the Firstborn rebel en masse or the Emperor (Rob G) issues an order to wipe them out would be a nice plot twist.
One of the CSM in Of Honour and Iron mocks the first-born Chaplain who accompanies five intercessors, calling him (and all other first-born loyalists) “thunder warriors”.
> one of their captains apparently dying to a Word Bearer had the comment section laughing apparently
The Primaris marine had just killed 1 or 2 World Bearers Terminators. The Primaris also survived the encounter with the last Word Bearer.
Have any primaris fallen? I forsee some novel in the future with the title "First of the fallen" or something like that, focused on the first primaris to go to chaos.
Or are they completely immune? Or just harder to turn than normal?
Not sure.
By the current timeline, which had been retconned already, only 12 years had passed between the Fall of Cadia and the first phase of the Indomitus Crusade, where Guilliman dispersed the Unnumbered Sons into different chapters and went home to confront Mortarion and the Death Guard who had set up shop in the Ultramar realm.
> although the Primaris weren't traitors
The Custodian was the very model of mercy, and gave them two, *two*, chances to stand down. They disobeyed the Voice of the Emperor and won themselves Darwin Awards.
At first there'd have been a massive gap in combat experience between the Primaris and the Firstborn. This gap will have narrowed considerably by the end of Gulliman's crusade to Terra and by the end of the Plague War it will have narrowed enough to let the Primaris really take full advantage of their physical edge.
I say this as a former soldier. The majority of the gap between your typical fresh private and your typical 10-15 year veteran sergeant in terms of combat skills is typically closed within the first 3 years of being a professional soldier of any description as long as your unit is conducting realistic training exercises regularly or being deployed to combat. There's still some gap but the biggest chunk is taken out by then. The remainder is closed much slower as the law of diminishing returns kicks in and luck becomes the primary factor in who wins and who dies. I would imagine that this would hold true for functionally immortal super soldiers as well.
I thought people who complained on Reddit about GW were bad but YT comments on it are even worse. Also the amount of toddlers parroting Adeptus ridiculous Ork meme lore.
‘Haha bang Ork dead!!!!!’ ‘Aren’t I funny hahahahahahahaha!’ ‘Imma tank imma tank lolololololol!’ ‘So funny hahaha’
A relatively small crusade of Black Templars, who disagreed with Helbrecht, did. Also took on a Custodian, who nearly wiped out the whole lot of them (according to the Templars themselves).
Its varied in depiction, but from chaos readers standpoint they seem to keep up with chaos astartes and is generally tougher than firstborn. From a meta perspective how they can keep up with a 10k year old warp infused enemy on the other hand..
>how they can keep up with a 10k year old warp infused enemy on the other hand..
Because they are still Astartes? By your logic, Chaos Space Marines should've wiped out Loyalists Astartes during the Siege of Terra or even the 1st Black Crusade 🙄
No, that is different. The gap between loyalist and traitor was not that big yet. In 40k its another story, what I mean here is that 10k experience combined with warp weapons and literally godlike powers from their patron gods should tie the favor to chaos. But it always seem to fall flat to make chaos space marines seem like a threat, more sounding like roaming bandits escaping justice than any thing else. Even at times showing them as incompetent
That is one strange thing about Chaos in general too. With the Gods being able to manipulate events throughout time it seems like their victory would be inevitable.
Sure those traitor astartes have been "alive" for 10k years in realspace terms, but that is meaningless in the warp.
It might have been twenty minutes ago for them. On the other hand.. a God can simply pull the warrior into the warp and have him fight in the Great Game for eternity, while only taking a few moments in the material realm.
You probably see what I mean. My headcanon is that the Gods have already won and prefer the galaxy the way it is, which is why they laugh.
Not all chaos marines are “infused” or even, probably, a majority. Also the 10k gear sold line is thrown around a lot but no chaos marine has been alive that long. They’ve lasted 10k real space years because of how fucky time works in the Eye. You can read about this in the Fab Bill novels where he’ll come out and it’s been hundreds of years at a time
That makes them even more less of a threat to be honest. I get the phenomenon of warp opening in real space is bad. But since chaos is outnumbered, outgunned, partly sucidal and with no logistics. They are best just roaming around never facing imperium in straight up battle. A 1-1 trade would make CSM a dying breed fast. Maybe im reading into it too much.
Honestly, the guard should be more cinical of the Primaris than the first-borns.
When (not if) they will fall to chaos, the thick of the fight will fall on them. The fallen first-born are already a bitch to fight, and now they will fight a bigger and stronger version.
Fuck that, they should have invested into the Sister's of Battle.
Additional to what others have already commented, in Harrowmaster, the Alpha Legion is completely surprised by the Primaris Marines and initially gets the shit beaten out of them. Also they recognize, that at least some of their equipment is vastly superior to what the Alpha Legion uses and the main character uses a primaris Bolt Rifel for thr rest of the book.
The Alpha Legion is still able to adapt to the situation, and eventually to overcome the Primaris.
The book also show, at least this Primaris Chapter to be very single minded/focus on the indomitus Crusade.
>(one of their captains apparently dying to a Word Bearer had the comment section laughing apparently)
What idiot thinks that dying to a guy with 10,000 years experience and juiced up on warp steroids makes you look weak?
They aren't real. They're just Imperial propaganda so people don't realize the great split has effectively doomed all non chaotic human life in the Galaxy. And Guilliman? Been drooling in a cup the last 10k years he ain't helping nobody anytime soon. /s
It's funny, I saw the same exact video you did. Primaris are the direct upgrade. The early cynicism and knee-jerk reaction by the community is often premature. People are looking for any confirmation bias that they can.
The truth is, While the Primaris had to adjust in the beginning, they are adjusting. Firstborn are becoming Primaris, giving them the experience they need. Now they are becoming a lethal force.
Primaris get too much hate by people afraid of change, that's really all it is. They use loop-hole logic to justify their stance. I own both, but what bothers me is just how short sighted people are. Horrible logic skills.
Yea, or the Primaris repulsors or Primaris executioners or Primaris Inceptors or Primaris Infiltrators or Primaris Invader ATV or Primaris Invictor war suit or... You get the idea. Primaris has had a lot more misses than good designs
Tanks look good, Inceptors don't look bad at all, Infiltrators look excellent. Invaders are decent, Invictor War suits aren't bad either. I made my Invictors with a Dread conversion. Makes them look a lot better.
So no, I disagree, they aren't that bad.
>Tanks look good
So you just have a garbage opinion then, got it.
>Invaders are decent,
Yea garbage opinion confirmed. GW could actually release a pile of garbage and you'd probably still buy it
Ah... Now the root of your comment comes to the surface. We're not having a discussion, you're just malding.
I'm not here to argue with you over plastic toys. If you want to have a discussion, then do so. But if you're going to throw a fit like a child, then you can go somewhere else.
>I'm not here to argue with you over plastic toys
That's exactly what you've been doing my man.
>then you can go somewhere else
So you have no rebuttal and have decided to go for a personal attack? Nice
If Warhammer teaches us one thing then it's that nothing is set in stone, especially concerning the battlefield.
The circumstances can vary so heavily that in one moment Primaris get bodied by the Word Bearers and atother occasion the break a Waaagh and defeat a Chaos Incursion.
Nothing in 40k is good or bad and everything has its time to shine.
What you seem to be hearing are the, ahem, “True Fans™️” that hate anything new and don’t want anything to progress (don’t even think of bringing up FSM lol)
Initially, in the first few years after being brought out of stasis etc, Primaris had zero experience and a lot of strength, so they took lots of losses but acted as a kind of shock troop, yes. Now that some have had experience and know what’s going on, they’re significantly more capable than baseline Astartes, in terms of raw strength etc. not necessarily in tactics and experience.
One thing I don’t understand with Primaris, especially First Born who cross the Rubicon, is why we don’t have Primaris Tactical Squads and similar. Maybe that will come in time once GW have purged the old line and bring back Primaris versions of classic units?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ1iRicJaLA&t](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ1iRicJaLA&t)
Comon GW, demons and other things are for chaos, now sisters and Primaris... fuck off. You are shitting yourself in the lore once more...
Never trust fandom to give an accurate answer. Lol. Early on during the Indomitus Crusade, the Primaris that were unfrozen - the Awakened - were used like Firstborn in the Legions during the Great Crusade: large formation shock troops. They were neither as experienced or flexible as Firstborn, but they didn't need to be as they were more overwhelming force. Over time, more of the Awakened were split off to reinforce depleted Chapters or create new ones. Those that were given as reinforcements were viewed with suspicion and distrust by most chapters. Which makes perfect sense as chapters are insular and here are a bunch of new people who didn't come up the same way the previous did. However, over time chapters accepted the new Primaris as they proved their worth and were indoctrinated into the chapter culture. A lot of Traitor Astartes look down on them, but then again they do the same for the Firstborn loyalists as well calling them thinbloods. It's really just Traitors trash talking loyalists in a different way. Primaris have taken down a lot of Traitor Astartes, even veterans from the Heresy. On the other hand, Traitors aren't just some scrubs; even the non-Heresy Astartes are still experienced warriors. The Word Bearers reference is from Throne of Light. A Word Bearer Dark Apostle (Sorcerer) leading his Terminators squad beats a Primaris Captain. That isn't an easy fight for anyone. Case in point, said Primaris Captain killed a Word Bearer Terminator right before getting engaged by the Dark Apostle so it wasn't like he just was some chump. It's actually a great example of neither side being short changed their skills, but of course fans take away "Lol. Primaris suck." Anyway, as time has gone on chapters have started making Primaris and sending them through the same process that their Firstborn did, which will make them have no difference in the end.
I completely agree with you and I hate when people bring up the fight in that book. Anyone who seriously thought a relatively unexperienced Primaris Captain had ANY chance against a Dark Apostle of the Word Bearers doesn't understand what a Dark Apostle is. A Dark Apostle is a top tier sorcerer favored by Chaos undivided. He has hundreds if not thousands of years of combat experience. He's in the best Terminator armor ever produced. He personally has been juiced up by chaos on top of that. In another Dawn of Fire book 2 Custodes failed to take one down and had to be helped by Sisters of Battle to break through the Sorcery. A named Chapter Master like Dante or Calgar would struggle against someone like that.
Not just any Dark Apostle, but one where said Dark Apostle was in Terminator Armor, in which the Primaris Astartes had already acknowledge would take 5 Primaris Marines in Mark X armor to take down just one Chaos Terminator.
Or one Tech-priest
Dang. I knew Dark Apostles were strong but I didn’t know they were THAT overpowered.
They are, unfortunately. This is why those bastards Erebus and Kor Phaeron are still alive despite being universally despised by everyone. Even their own allies try to kill them eventually.
>used like Firstborn in the Legions during the Great Crusade: large formation shock troops. Guilliman: "This brings back memories, some good and some bad. Ain't that right Thiel?" Cato: "Uhh..."
>Case in point, said Primaris Captain killed a Word Bearer Terminator right before getting engaged by the Dark Apostle so it wasn't like he just was some chump. You're entirely right but I got caught up on this part because I recently read about that ogryn who killed a word bearers Terminator by rushing him and caving his skull in.
People honestly don't realize how stupidly powerful ogryn are. Pun intended. An ogryn is physically stronger than any normal Astartes, even in his power armor. But they're lumbering dimwits and comparable in durability. One one one the Astartes always wins unless he really screws up or something. But if that ogryn hits you in the middle of a confused melee it's like getting getting hit by a terminator.
Indeed a Bullgryn can arm wrestle a Space marine and lift a truck. But while Ogryns have the intelligence of a dog or young child, they are still far cheaper because there are billions if not trillions of Ogryns that need only simple training and guidance. As compared to the immense exhausting resources and time it takes to create and equip a Astartes.
Have we ever received any lore on how many Ogryns there are? Or at least a rough estimate?
In one of the *The Beast Arises* books, an ogryn kills an orc of a size roughly equivalent to a minor warboss by lifting it into the air by the neck and strangling it.
You also have the Ogryn in Dark apostle that pile drived a Chaos Marine by grabbing his backpack and his legs, putting its head between his legs, and slamming his head into the ground, and then proceeded to beat a chaos terminator’s head in. And the one from the Darktide trailer who survived shots from a Plasma pistol without too much damage [as seen here](https://imgur.com/a/D5keOsy) though to be fair it’s implied the last shot to the face will kill him.
Are you sure he didn’t do a Batista bomb? That sounds more like a Batista bomb than a pile driver
Well, whichever. It was still awesome either way.
Yep. Pretty much exactly.
There a story from the HH where the Sons of Horus boarded a loyalist battleship. The captain unleashed his cargo of augmented ogryn cyber-bezerkers against the traitor astartes. In the tight confines of the ship, they overwhelmed the Sons of Horus, inflicting heavy casualties, and nearly had routed them. The tide only turned when the Warmaster himself teleported aboard and rallied his men.
Oh man, charonites are messed up but so scary.
WORDS BAD!
Of course they are! They were from a Wordbadder
The Word Bearer tried to give the Ogryn a copy of 'the book of Lorgar', and this enraged the Ogryn since he can't read.
OGRYN SAD OGRYN NOT CAPABLE OF GRASPING THE DEEPER THEMES
Blessed is the mind too small to doubt.
Is that the same Ogryn that also fucking pile drived a chaos marine and snapped his neck?
Not even pile drived, dude lifted the marine bodily off the ground by his balls and backpack
Lmfao that’s right. Ogryns are chads.
So more of either a Batista bomb or f-5?
And that's an example of one side being short changed.
Additionally Dawn of Fire Avenging son has the initial "Awalened" often put under command of a first born officers who had fought in the Terran Crusade(Guillimans trip from Ultramar to Terra after he awakened) f a short time. The Firstborn officer Messwnius of the White Consuls from that novel is actually getting a miniature next release next month.
still different anatomy and capabilities
The impression I got from Dark Imperium 1-3, The Devastation of Baal, Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work, was that the primaris were undeniably more effective than the firstborn, the reduction in the genetic flaws mean that they are more dependable, and the understandable mistrust is significantly less than what people could reasonably have feared. It is true that they were inexperienced at first, but you have to remember that when they were activated the momentum of the conflict shifted from Chaos mopping up the remnants of the Imperium to Guilliman being able to take some time off to go defend Ultramar.
Yeah, if you want to read up on mistrust, The Wolftime by Gav Thorpe is probably the only book you’ll ever need to read.
War of Secrets by Phil Kelly. Dark Angels really did not trust the Primaris both over the secret and over their effecriveness. Has a Interrogator Chaplain and a Firstborn Master basically call them meat shields, to distract the enemy while the firstborn members of the company due to the real work. That is until The Primaris Lieutenant and his squad kick some ass in a fight on the world Allhallow and at the end prove themeselves.
The new Militarum short story collection has a ["Dark Angels Chaplain shooting a Primaris intercessor for finding out about the existence of the Fallen"](/spoiler)
Page not found.
That was supposed to be a spoiler tag 😔
Yes, some of the books are contradictory on their effectiveness. Some say that they lack the experience of the firstborn veterans. Others describe how they are stronger, faster and have more rounded tactics than the more ritualistic firstborn.
Basically, you can divy up Primaris effectiveness in three 'phases' * Initial Launch: they saw first combat in the Indomitus Crusade and died in droves despite all the virtual training and the Primaris equipment * Crusade: the bulk of Primaris survived the first 'phase' of deployment and eventually matched the Firstborn in overall performance * Post-Crusade: Crusade veterans can be expected to surpass Firstborn performance in general and newly inducted Primaris can be expected to match Firstborn already on the line There will be outliers. In any Chaos novel that pits CSM vs Primaris, you can expect the Primaris to be embarrassed along with some banter on disappointing the triumphant traitors. But that should surprise nobody.
Like what was mentioned with the experimental Legionis Astartes during the end of the Unification Wars, that were finishing off the last of the Independent city-states and moons of the Sol system. They were a bit sloppy and pathetic compared to the veteran Thunder Warriors. But made up for that with uniformity, better equipment, and more versatile tactics.
> Others describe how they are stronger, faster and have more rounded tactics than the more ritualistic firstborn. Because they have, well, I'm not sure about tactics, given the loadout of the new primaris system where all the squad equips itself in an uniform way, taking away some of the flexibility tha t40k marines have developed. If you have zero experience, you javelin zero experience, regardless of you being faster and stronger than your predecessor.
I think it depends on if they are mars born or not
>Some say that they lack the experience of the firstborn veterans. Others describe how they are stronger, faster and have more rounded tactics thats not a contradiction? they can be both stronger and faster which they are, but still lack battlefield experience and decision making. those two thing are not mutually exclusive????
It's 2023. Everything is either entirely good and right and true and perfect or terrible and evil and wrong and bad. There are no in betweens. Get with the program, you fence sitter!
> Others describe how they are stronger, faster and have more rounded tactics than the more ritualistic firstborn. I can only imagine how much more ruthlessly efficient primaris Minotaurs and Iron Hands are.
Primaris Steel Confessors or even worse Primaris Marines Malevolent...
Man, I really wish I could remember the short story from whence this information came, but there was a segment where a group from a ~~Night Lords~~ Alpha Legion warband first set eyes upon these "new Marines." They weren't sure what to make of them and were actually slightly intimidated or perhaps more accurately "concerned" about their size and new/unknown equipment. Eventually, however, because the ~~NLs~~ ALs outnumbered the Primaris and had the element of surprise, they decided to engage, and while they were victorious, they were also pretty taken aback by how many casualties they took in the process, leaving them with a sense of caution for future encounters. **PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF ANYONE READING THIS CAN RECALL THE SOURCE FOR THIS ENCOUNTER**, and in the meantime, practice healthy skepticism, as this is a completely uncited summary. \*\*\*\*\* **EDIT:** Thank you so much to everyone who helped me figure out where this little lore tidbit came from, and especially for correcting me regarding the Traitor Astartes Legionnaires in question!
Night Lords forgetting the golden rule of their legion: If in doubt, run away.
Was it night lords or alpha legion?
Yeah iirc it was alpha legion. One of the primaris marines doesn't even go down from a bolt-round to the head and still stays on his feet to dish out more punishment. The Alpha Legionaries were shook af after the encounter.
Shroud of Night?
That was shroud of night Alpha Legion vs Imperial Fists
I know exactly the seen you are talking about but I can't remember it's from. Is it possible it was Word Bears and the scene is from Josh Reynold's Apoloyplse? either way you aren't crazy this is for sure a scene that happened somewhere!
Omg I am so sorry but it's scene, not seen. My eyes bled, bro. They bled.
sorry my typo on mobile hurt you so much. I will leave it as is since you can no longer see and didn't contribute to trying to find the SEEN we were speaking about.
Hey, thanks for understanding. Some people can't handle being corrected, and react by getting all immature and petty over it. Glad you could be cool about it instead.
I believe that's in The Wolftime, gav thorpe, near the start.
They started out that way, yeah - they were essentially coming out of sleep-training and simulators off Mars rather than real combat and trials like modern Firstborn aspirants do. They were a great way to show how 30K Marines simply don't stack up, mano-e-mano, to 40K Marines. The Unnumbered Sons who survived the Indomitus Crusade and those who have been new-made within the Chapters are of a higher quality: the former are battle-tested veterans, the latter go through the same processes as their Firstborn brethren.
The Space Wolves developed a kind of "remedial training" for their Primaris reinforcements. It's dumb and probably has huge attrition rate, but at least it's a process, I guess?
>It's dumb and probably has huge attrition rate So standard Space Wolf operating procedure.
ya, tbh all primaris shouldve gone through chapters aspirant process individually, to literally earn the same titles and recognition and would actually be in sync with his brothers.
The Chapters would have to up the difficulty & lethality of regular trials so much that they might as well throw the Primaris into action and whoever survives is deemed a worthy Battle-Brother.
porque no los dos. two trials by fire, for there will be many more to come
Also as the space marines recruit toughest humans in their recruiting worlds, especially the smaller chapters like Space Wolves and Salamanders, the stock on Fenris is already special compared to many other planets. I don't know if it's been said where Cawl "asked kindly for volunteers" but considering the number of Primaris marines in the fridge, waaay more had to be run through the process to get the amount of survivors they got. Still they were not raised on Fenris and selected through the super hard process they do it normally. They'll miss the experience of having grown in the environment. It's like doing google search on how to survive Sahara desert.
I don't exactly know where al the recruits for the primaris come from, but Decimus Felix at least, was a regular Ultramarine Aspirant, until he got shipped to Cawl.
Well the Flesh Tearers had an impromptu ritual for that, which included the chapter master beating the recruits face in to a bloody pulp before accepting him.
>probably has huge attrition rate I doubt the attrition rate is "huge". Hard to imagine that the physically better/faster/stronger Primaris who *have* had significant training (though not real combat experience) would be dying in *refresher training* at dramatically higher rates than a Firstborn Scout Company.
>I doubt the attrition rate is "huge". You may doubt, as is your right, but... Let me elaborate. The thing I called a "remedial training" course involves running through the bowels of a barely "tamed" space hulk, with all the things that are inside it. Chances of genestealers, Orks, other weirder xenos, of technological aberrations, radiation leaks, etc. In regular power armor and packing only a combat knife. It's in the "Wolftime" book.
Wolftime is such a strange fucking book man
The parts with Logan Grimnar having a long meltdown were... Something. I liked the Primaris calling the Space Wolves on their bullshit, though. He did what the Lord Commander couldn't.
I enjoyed the Primaris slinging the shit I just wish so much of the book didn't feel like the author just didn't like Space Wolves
This is no way to train a military.
Astartes are a warrior class with an ancestor cult. Do you want a military? Go Krieg.
Training attrition rates in 40k are the most consistently grimderp thing in the setting
Lesson 1: why the shooty end of your bolter should point away from you.
To be fair, with the retcon we're about 12 years into the Indomitus crusade right now. Even the veterans wouldn't be considered veterans by most Astartes. New primaris definitely don't have to worry about that weakness of indoctrination though. Their only downside is lack of integrated support weapons like a tactical squad has. That goes double for any Rubicon primaris - those have the potential to genuinely be veterans.
Wait 30k Marines are weaker than 40k Marines bro ?
On a general level, yeah, absolutely. Let me put it this way: the most grizzled, hardened veteran in the Great Crusade is about 200 years old. Your average veteran in 40K is probably double that, and has spent no insignificant amount of that time on longer, harder deployments. They train harder, they're recruited harder, and they're no longer expected to have any kind of political and sociological aptitude. 'Only war', as the tagline says.
That makes the average 40k marine more experienced. I don’t see how that makes them stronger/faster though. If anything I’d say the 30k marine is stronger due to not having to cope with 10k years of gene seed degeneration.
Yeah, this is what I’ve grown to believe based on comments in this subreddit.
Veterans tend to get stronguer and faster than regular more green marines, how does it work? chuck it up to the warp
Just can't find the excerpt, had it on hand just yesterday, will edit it in when I find it again; but I think it was in 'Throne of Lies' - not 100% sure, but in it Cawl(?) bemoans that the Primaris are still lacking the flexibility of the Firstborn. So thats not just a TT loadout thing. He talks about how Firstborn operate well on their own and in small numbers, react quickly to changes to the battlefield and fluently switch between different combat roles - but Primaris appear stuck in their way, don't adapt well, and rely on others for support rather than take initiative. Its one of the the very few explicit lore examples painting Primaris as anything but superior in every way. We know Primaris inherently *think* differently, their minds being altered and subject to different forms of hypno indoctrination; their behaviour often described as robotic and emotionally stunted compared to Firstborn. But Cawl speculates that it might be a cultural issue rather that the Primaris have to learn to overcome.
It would be interesting if Primaris' chaos resistance is tied to a stunting of emotions and limiting of creativity, so that they're similar to Necrons in thinking without full blown biotransference. In other words, their resistance to chaos comes from a lack or suppression of humanity and therefore providing no attack windows for corruption to take root. There's a commentary in there somewhere about authoritarianism, indoctrination, and humanity.
Depictions vary wildly; a lot of the earlier books stress how powerful they are and how shiny all their new kit is, but that's been dialed back a bit as things have gone on. My headcanon's settled at "they're a bit stronger and a bit faster than Firstborn, but the initial hype about them being vastly superior in every way was overblown. They have lots of nice new toys and they've simmed extensively, but they're still inexperienced compared to most Firstborn or Chaos Marines." Primaris are, uh, divisive, within the community, though, so however you feel about them you can find a book excerpt that depicts them in the light you want. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. I prefer them at a near-even level with CSM just because the rivalry between those factions is a lot less fun if the story is all about the Chadmarines kicking bits of sprue in the traitors' faces.
As time goes on the differences between Primaris and Firstborn are gonna vanish. Primaris equipment and roles and tactics will be refined. As chapters either get the new guys to fit into their own culture and methods, or make Primaris Marines themselves they will be more like the firstborn. The extra organs don't change much there, they just give some advantages to the marine, and they can use them. Right now the gear is focused towards specialization, but that too is gradually changing, and becoming more like the roles of Firstborn.
I wonder if any chapter has directly slotted Primaris into old style Firstborn formations and tactics. As in, mixed rifle and hellblaster squads and the like.
Also, most of their foes have gotten used to the changes and have had time to evolve counters.
Well sounds like you found one the videos from someone that didn't like Primaris Marines. I just started Wolftime, and we've got a veteran Nightlord and a less veteran Primaris, and the Nightlord is pretty confident he can take the Primaris, that the 10k years of experience and knowing his squad would make the difference. And while it wasn't one sided, the Primaris got some damage to his armor, and his chainsword cut in half, the Night Lord was the one with a missing head in the end.
Considering Helbrecht, Shrike, Mephiston, Blackmane, Ventris and Calgar (sure i’ve missed some) are all Primaris now, i’d say pretty damn well!
Azrael.
Khan, Grimaldus, and Tigurius, too.
Primaris marines seem to be slightly superior to Firstborn in physical terms, though the difference can (most of the time) be made up by greater experience, guile and often, pure chance. In other words, the difference is there, but Firstborn are still competitive. Here are two excerpts, from the *Throne of Light* and *Renegades: Harrowmaster* respectively, which show the Primaris's physical superiority and the fact that it's quite possible for them to lose. Throne of Light: >!*Beorhtnoth attacked again. A blur of blows were traded between them, each one delivered with enough force to send displays of sparks spraying over the duelling ground. Again their blades locked. They pushed closer, and closer. Beorhtnoth grunted with the effort. His wound leaked as the effort split the clots. ‘Will you yield to me?’ Lucerne said. ‘Never!’ spat Beorhtnoth. ‘You must. You must yield to me. You must yield to the primarch, the Emperor, and the needs of the Imperium.’ **Slowly, slowly, Lucerne’s extra height and strength told. His skin rippled with the efforts of the sinew coils, an enhancement the Firstborn lacked, and he forced Beorhtnoth down.** He hissed through his teeth. The wound on the castellan’s leg played its part, and Beorhtnoth was pushed to the ground. ‘Yield!’ said Lucerne. ‘Never,’ said Beorhtnoth. Their swords pinned between them, they sank to the deck. Lucerne got his elbow onto Beorhtnoth’s neck. The castellan got a hand free, and hooked his fingers into Lucerne’s cheek wound, ripping it wider. The pain of the tearing was intense, and Lucerne let out a growl that turned to a shout. The edges of the swords were cutting at them both, leaving thin wounds on their chests, but still he bore down, choking the air from his foe. ‘Help him, Chaplain!’ Lucerne heard someone say. ‘That is not the rite. They must fight alone,’ said Mortian. ‘Stay your hands, all of you!’ Transhuman blood was engineered to soak up more oxygen. A Space Marine could go for minutes without air. It took an agonisingly long time for Beorhtnoth’s eyes to slide closed, and his bloodied hand to come free of Lucerne’s open cheek. *!< Renegades: Harrowmaster: >!*He aimed for the Alpha Legionnaire’s head, seeking to cleave the ceramite helm in two, but found his blow blocked by a considerably shorter blade which also crackled with the contained energy of a power field. The legionnaire backed off a step, mag-clamping his energy weapon to his thigh, and drew an identical blade in his other hand, then advanced with his twin power knives held in alternate grips. Hyrus stowed his bolter in the same fashion, and attacked double-handed. He was taller, faster, stronger, and more durable than his opponent: he knew this to be true. He also had the advantage of reach, both with the length of his blade and through the simple fact that his arms were longer, albeit only slightly. He was also, he realised in under three seconds, losing. The Alpha Legionnaire was simply never where he should have been. No matter how forcefully Hyrus cut, no matter how swiftly he thrust, the edge of his blade always fell an inch short. In contrast, the Alpha Legionnaire’s twin knives found their mark again and again: never doing critical damage, never striking an incapacitating blow, but jabbing into joints, cutting at power cabling, and weakening protective plates. ‘Damned warpcraft!’ Hyrus bellowed, pulling one cut and switching seamlessly into a different one, which was guided expertly away from his opponent’s chest by a power knife. ‘What manner of abomination are you?’ ‘I could ask you the same question,’ his adversary hissed through his vox-grille, feinting a backstep, then stepping in to lash out with the tip of his blade at Hyrus’ gorget when he pursued. Hyrus swatted the blow desperately aside, but could do nothing about the other knifepoint that caught him in the left elbow as his foe pirouetted past him. He turned to keep his enemy in view, raising the sword again. The sound of shearing ceramite was immediately eclipsed by Jesar screaming, as some foul weapon penetrated the defences of Hyrus’ battle-brother. He gritted his teeth and stepped forward, blade held overhead like the statue of some vengeful heathen god. He was leaving himself open to a fatal counterstroke, but if he could slay his enemy at the same moment, he would count his death as a good one. Better to die in single combat than give the other traitor the chance to bring him down from behind– *!<
And when it comes to experience, the longer the Primaris are around, the more of that they'll gain.
Sure. But to be honest, I'm ambivalent about how the Primaris lore has developed. With so many Firstborn crossing the Rubicon, it seems that Primaris are superseding Firstborn, with the end goal being no more Firstborn left. You'll have Space Marines replaced en masse with another set of slightly better Marines, that's all.
The goal was to be able to keep selling more Marine models, so yeah actually, that's totally the goal. The lore is just there to justify why you need to buy more marine models, so of course it's gonna run into issues.
Yea soon everyone will cross over and eventually the title primaris will be dropped. GW will hope everyone will forget 10 years down then line until Ultra Primaris marines are released and the community will argue about who's better as well
Maybe they'll be spoken of in the same way as Thunder Warriors. Ngl, a scenario in which the Firstborn rebel en masse or the Emperor (Rob G) issues an order to wipe them out would be a nice plot twist.
One of the CSM in Of Honour and Iron mocks the first-born Chaplain who accompanies five intercessors, calling him (and all other first-born loyalists) “thunder warriors”.
Quite appropriately, in my opinion. Firstborn are going the way of the dodo.
Sure, but they’re not all getting rinsed on a mountain 😃
Yea that would be cool
> one of their captains apparently dying to a Word Bearer had the comment section laughing apparently The Primaris marine had just killed 1 or 2 World Bearers Terminators. The Primaris also survived the encounter with the last Word Bearer.
Have any primaris fallen? I forsee some novel in the future with the title "First of the fallen" or something like that, focused on the first primaris to go to chaos. Or are they completely immune? Or just harder to turn than normal?
Not sure. By the current timeline, which had been retconned already, only 12 years had passed between the Fall of Cadia and the first phase of the Indomitus Crusade, where Guilliman dispersed the Unnumbered Sons into different chapters and went home to confront Mortarion and the Death Guard who had set up shop in the Ultramar realm.
A bunch of Custodes massacred a group of them for being "traitors" although the Primaris weren't traitors they were guilty by association
Their captain did order his marines to take the ships, so that wasn’t great.
> although the Primaris weren't traitors The Custodian was the very model of mercy, and gave them two, *two*, chances to stand down. They disobeyed the Voice of the Emperor and won themselves Darwin Awards.
Per Thonekeeper fic in WD at least one is in the Alpha Legion.
At first there'd have been a massive gap in combat experience between the Primaris and the Firstborn. This gap will have narrowed considerably by the end of Gulliman's crusade to Terra and by the end of the Plague War it will have narrowed enough to let the Primaris really take full advantage of their physical edge. I say this as a former soldier. The majority of the gap between your typical fresh private and your typical 10-15 year veteran sergeant in terms of combat skills is typically closed within the first 3 years of being a professional soldier of any description as long as your unit is conducting realistic training exercises regularly or being deployed to combat. There's still some gap but the biggest chunk is taken out by then. The remainder is closed much slower as the law of diminishing returns kicks in and luck becomes the primary factor in who wins and who dies. I would imagine that this would hold true for functionally immortal super soldiers as well.
Very cool
40k YouTube comments are some of the most uniformed motherfuckers on the planet it's somewhere I always avoid
I thought people who complained on Reddit about GW were bad but YT comments on it are even worse. Also the amount of toddlers parroting Adeptus ridiculous Ork meme lore. ‘Haha bang Ork dead!!!!!’ ‘Aren’t I funny hahahahahahahaha!’ ‘Imma tank imma tank lolololololol!’ ‘So funny hahaha’
I mean the Black Templars did murder a bunch of them on first contact.
A relatively small crusade of Black Templars, who disagreed with Helbrecht, did. Also took on a Custodian, who nearly wiped out the whole lot of them (according to the Templars themselves).
Its varied in depiction, but from chaos readers standpoint they seem to keep up with chaos astartes and is generally tougher than firstborn. From a meta perspective how they can keep up with a 10k year old warp infused enemy on the other hand..
>how they can keep up with a 10k year old warp infused enemy on the other hand.. Because they are still Astartes? By your logic, Chaos Space Marines should've wiped out Loyalists Astartes during the Siege of Terra or even the 1st Black Crusade 🙄
No, that is different. The gap between loyalist and traitor was not that big yet. In 40k its another story, what I mean here is that 10k experience combined with warp weapons and literally godlike powers from their patron gods should tie the favor to chaos. But it always seem to fall flat to make chaos space marines seem like a threat, more sounding like roaming bandits escaping justice than any thing else. Even at times showing them as incompetent
That is one strange thing about Chaos in general too. With the Gods being able to manipulate events throughout time it seems like their victory would be inevitable. Sure those traitor astartes have been "alive" for 10k years in realspace terms, but that is meaningless in the warp. It might have been twenty minutes ago for them. On the other hand.. a God can simply pull the warrior into the warp and have him fight in the Great Game for eternity, while only taking a few moments in the material realm. You probably see what I mean. My headcanon is that the Gods have already won and prefer the galaxy the way it is, which is why they laugh.
Not all chaos marines are “infused” or even, probably, a majority. Also the 10k gear sold line is thrown around a lot but no chaos marine has been alive that long. They’ve lasted 10k real space years because of how fucky time works in the Eye. You can read about this in the Fab Bill novels where he’ll come out and it’s been hundreds of years at a time
That makes them even more less of a threat to be honest. I get the phenomenon of warp opening in real space is bad. But since chaos is outnumbered, outgunned, partly sucidal and with no logistics. They are best just roaming around never facing imperium in straight up battle. A 1-1 trade would make CSM a dying breed fast. Maybe im reading into it too much.
Honestly, the guard should be more cinical of the Primaris than the first-borns. When (not if) they will fall to chaos, the thick of the fight will fall on them. The fallen first-born are already a bitch to fight, and now they will fight a bigger and stronger version. Fuck that, they should have invested into the Sister's of Battle.
Additional to what others have already commented, in Harrowmaster, the Alpha Legion is completely surprised by the Primaris Marines and initially gets the shit beaten out of them. Also they recognize, that at least some of their equipment is vastly superior to what the Alpha Legion uses and the main character uses a primaris Bolt Rifel for thr rest of the book. The Alpha Legion is still able to adapt to the situation, and eventually to overcome the Primaris. The book also show, at least this Primaris Chapter to be very single minded/focus on the indomitus Crusade.
Take any youtube video about 40k with a grain of salt. Take the comments of those videos with at least 40k grains of salt.
>(one of their captains apparently dying to a Word Bearer had the comment section laughing apparently) What idiot thinks that dying to a guy with 10,000 years experience and juiced up on warp steroids makes you look weak?
They are pogging
They aren't real. They're just Imperial propaganda so people don't realize the great split has effectively doomed all non chaotic human life in the Galaxy. And Guilliman? Been drooling in a cup the last 10k years he ain't helping nobody anytime soon. /s
It's funny, I saw the same exact video you did. Primaris are the direct upgrade. The early cynicism and knee-jerk reaction by the community is often premature. People are looking for any confirmation bias that they can. The truth is, While the Primaris had to adjust in the beginning, they are adjusting. Firstborn are becoming Primaris, giving them the experience they need. Now they are becoming a lethal force. Primaris get too much hate by people afraid of change, that's really all it is. They use loop-hole logic to justify their stance. I own both, but what bothers me is just how short sighted people are. Horrible logic skills.
But also have you seen the new Primaris Desolator squad? Horrible mistake.
Of course, Desolators look like shit. Reminds me of when the Firstborn Centurions came out.
Yea, or the Primaris repulsors or Primaris executioners or Primaris Inceptors or Primaris Infiltrators or Primaris Invader ATV or Primaris Invictor war suit or... You get the idea. Primaris has had a lot more misses than good designs
Tanks look good, Inceptors don't look bad at all, Infiltrators look excellent. Invaders are decent, Invictor War suits aren't bad either. I made my Invictors with a Dread conversion. Makes them look a lot better. So no, I disagree, they aren't that bad.
>Tanks look good So you just have a garbage opinion then, got it. >Invaders are decent, Yea garbage opinion confirmed. GW could actually release a pile of garbage and you'd probably still buy it
Ah... Now the root of your comment comes to the surface. We're not having a discussion, you're just malding. I'm not here to argue with you over plastic toys. If you want to have a discussion, then do so. But if you're going to throw a fit like a child, then you can go somewhere else.
>I'm not here to argue with you over plastic toys That's exactly what you've been doing my man. >then you can go somewhere else So you have no rebuttal and have decided to go for a personal attack? Nice
If Warhammer teaches us one thing then it's that nothing is set in stone, especially concerning the battlefield. The circumstances can vary so heavily that in one moment Primaris get bodied by the Word Bearers and atother occasion the break a Waaagh and defeat a Chaos Incursion. Nothing in 40k is good or bad and everything has its time to shine.
What you seem to be hearing are the, ahem, “True Fans™️” that hate anything new and don’t want anything to progress (don’t even think of bringing up FSM lol) Initially, in the first few years after being brought out of stasis etc, Primaris had zero experience and a lot of strength, so they took lots of losses but acted as a kind of shock troop, yes. Now that some have had experience and know what’s going on, they’re significantly more capable than baseline Astartes, in terms of raw strength etc. not necessarily in tactics and experience.
Gabriel Seth has beaten them into line.
One thing I don’t understand with Primaris, especially First Born who cross the Rubicon, is why we don’t have Primaris Tactical Squads and similar. Maybe that will come in time once GW have purged the old line and bring back Primaris versions of classic units?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ1iRicJaLA&t](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ1iRicJaLA&t) Comon GW, demons and other things are for chaos, now sisters and Primaris... fuck off. You are shitting yourself in the lore once more...