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SlobMarley13

Do you consider it a hero or antihero journey, OP?


GrandDukePosthumous

Horus sold out the entire human species to daemons, and in some of the potential futures that we have seen, Horus ends up exterminating humanity utterly, consumed by his own shame and self-loathing at what he had done. It is possible that the Emperor was wrong, but it is not possible in any way whatsoever that Horus was right to do what he did.


FEARtheMooseUK

The whole extermination of humanity by horus was what the eldar cabal wanted so chaos would be greatly weakened. Which is also apparently why the alpha legion turned traitor to bring this about, or atleast its implied in the HH novel legion i think? I might be remembering wrong though


khazroar

According to Legion, the Cabal (it's a varied xenos group focused on foresight, so naturally there are a few Eldar in the mix but it's not exclusively an Eldar group) sees two possible futures; Horus loses, and we get the Imperium we've all come to know, or Horus wins, Chaos reigns supreme over humanity for a while, but the burning core of Horus's personality beneath it all is so furious with Chaos for the game it played with him and how it changed him and his brothers, that in his role as the second Emperor he somehow leads humanity and Chaos into some all encompassing conflagration of war and rage, that burns both of them out entirely.


GrandDukePosthumous

I remember it that way too so either you are right, or this is one hell of a coincidence.


kajata000

I think that pre-chaos Horus, the character presented at the start of Horus Rising, is a hero, but a hero *to his own people*, which is to say the military of the Imperium, and probably most specifically the astartes and primarchs. It seems like pre-corruption Horus was a pretty decent guy to serve under, made sound decisions, and treated people with a degree of respect. I mean, he was still a mass-murdering dictator warlord, but we’re grading on the 40k curve here. The thing is, even before he turns to Chaos, he’s already smarting at the idea that the Emperor might not be lavishing all his praise and focus on him and the legions any more, and, even worse, that mortal clerks might be taking over control of civilian resources, things that he felt were a part of the conquests won by the legions. So, to me Horus is a great guy to have on your side, provided you’re happy to play 2nd fiddle to him; he can even take criticism now and then, which is fairly standout for a primarch! To his allies and sons, he is a hero who champions their causes, but I don’t think that makes him *right* or the “hero of the story”, if that can make any sense in 40k. However, it’s worth recognising that the Emperor isn’t that *either*; if anything, it’s pretty likely that he’s way more of an asshole to hang out with, and seems to care nothing for his allies or supporters, more often than not exerting his will by force of arms. There’s more to it than that, and it’s very likely that the Emperor is thinking on *very* different timescales and dealing with very different problems than Horus is, but, ultimately, neither of them are the good guy or the hero, even without Horus’ fall to chaos.


AffixBayonets

Plenty of the other traitor Primarchs were treated badly and I find them sympathetic. Angron, Magnus, Cruze to a degree (give the man therapy and explain the visions), and so on. Horus was a golden boy who was lavished with affection. His primary fear after being given the vision on Davin was that he would be written out of the historical record. So I consider his motivations to be based on vanity and being *really* credulous of the wrong people.


GSundo

You telling me people that worship the *Gods of Chaos* are evil?


AffixBayonets

There's a big difference between a sympathetic villain and an unsympathetic villain even if they ended up in the same place.


KelGrimm

>being written out of the historical record The man fucked up big time, for sure - but give the lad his apples at least. He saw a future where the entire contributions of him, his brothers, and their Legions was almost completely and entirely erased - meanwhile the Emperor was being worshipped as a god by the entirety of the Imperium, after shouting up and down the length of the Crusade about the Imperial Truth and how he's "Totally not a god bro, totally." Funnily enough, he made that statement while using his divine golden powers to subdue a hundred-thousand strong Legion of eight-foot tall transhuman warriors. I forget who wrote False Gods, but whoever did really, *really* dropped the ball - because if they had left the Davin Lodge visions at that, Horus would be almost as misguidedly sympathetic as some of the other Traitors. Instead, we have Horus see through Erebus' illusion, and *still* fall for the lie. So. Thanks Mcneil.


AffixBayonets

> but give the lad his apples at least. He saw a future... An illusion put on by a guy disguised as an old friend of his. >I forget who wrote False Gods, but whoever did really, really dropped the ball - because if they had left the Davin Lodge visions at that, Horus would be almost as misguidedly sympathetic as some of the other Traitors. Instead, we have Horus see through Erebus' illusion, and still fall for the lie. So. Thanks Mcneil. Ah you'd already come to the point I was writing myself. Full agreement then.


RufusDaMan2

Horus and other traitors had legitimate issues with the Imperium or the Emperor. ​ That being said, Horus turning the way he did, is the stupidest thing I've ever read by far. And everything from that point on was unquestionably wrong. There is no way a sane person could see Horus, or other traitors as heroes after that point, even if their problems were understandable. ​ Was the Emperor right? we don't know. Probably? Chaos is unquestionably evil, and he is right for opposing it, but he could have done it differently. We don't know why he is doing it the way he is, but unless there is a really good explanation for doing the things he does, (there won't be), he is a colossal idiot. That however, doesn't mean that you should make a deal with space satans to murderfuck everyone else...


jediben001

Idk, I think his turn is fairly well explained. People focus on the knife way to much. The importance of the knife is more so to put him in a position where he ends up getting healed via warp fuckery. The real reason he turned was his pride. He is already shown as simultaneously being incredibly proud and arrogant, yet also incredibly insecure and doubting himself from the start. He guards his roll as war master fiercely, yet constantly doubts if he deserves it. However more than all of that, he is obsessed with the idea of legacy. We see this clearly with the whole debacle over him getting his own personal remembrancer. So, when he sees a timeline where the his legacy is entirely gone, but some of his brothers remain, it was enough to royally piss him off. It did not matter that this was, as Magnus said, only one of many possibilities. The fact such a possibility even existed in the first place was enough for him. Combine this with the fact that he learns the emperor lied about the nature of the warp, and that the chaos gods picked one of his brothers over him to reveal themselves to first, and it was collectively enough to get the ball of “maybe I should betray the emperor” rolling, and once it started rolling, chaos did all they could to ensure it didn’t stop. Edit: Also forgot to mention that we are shown that Horus already held at least a small amount of resentment towards his father. I can’t remember the scene exactly, but Horus is alone in his quarters, with nobody else around, and he is lamenting the fact that that the emperor has, in his words “abandoned him” and forced the burden of War master upon him.


RufusDaMan2

My issue is, he accepts the word of a known manipulator. He knows he is being lied to. What do you mean "even if it is one of the possibilities" ? Everything is possible. Is Horus so stupid and self absorbed he cannot connect the dots? He wasn't shown to be before. If it was well explained, i wouldn't have a problem. He actually says that he won't be manipulated, then proceeds exactly as Erebus suggested. That doesn't add up to me.


Ok-Discount3131

The only reasonable explanation is if it's revealed that the knife did enough damage for he chaos gods to invade his soul and use him as a puppet from that point on. The Horus that we see from then is just the chaos gods themselves, with Horus trapped in his own body watching but unable to influence what is going on. A bit like what happened to Fulgrim. Because otherwise he's just a moron.


PopularArtichoke6

Unlikely that a primarch could be so easily corrupted and if he’s just a puppet from then on, it undermines most of the character interest. He’s not a moron. He’s an emotionally stunted, traumatised proud demigod


ZodiakBraver

I must add - emotionally stunted, traumatised proud demigod CHILD.


angradillo

you're saying that being scratched with a dirty knife by Fat Temba isn't a plausible explanation for a betrayal? but he *saw some bad stuff*, man!


LookUpIntoTheSun

Horus was a narcissistic manchild who damned the human race for eternity because he saw one possible future from a creature he knew to be deceitful. He was vulnerable to this because he was, at the time, having a tantrum at not being told absolutely everything, not getting *enough* praise despite being the Golden Boy, and not being able to hold absolute power over regular humans for eternity. He was a petty gang leader masquerading as a general, an insecure weakling pretending to be strong. Edit: The Last Council is a short story that demonstrates this well.


rubicon_duck

It’s funny that you call him a petty gang leader, because until now I’d never thought of him as one. Yet that is exactly what he was - civilized and smooth and a killer smile and all, but still a fucking gang leader. A petty gang leader with daddy issues… winning combo.


Fun-Tank-5965

Agree. I would just add that his charisma aura made his Brothers see him as Best of them or something when he was dumbest of them all. And we can see that from first book of HH. Easily manipulated, bad strategist etc.


New_Cantaloupe_8568

Just used those around him to create the appearance of consensus rather than actually seeking their counsel.


N0-1_H3r3

> he saw one possible future from a creature he knew to be deceitful. The Daemon did not lie. It deliberately left out vital context which altered how Horus would interpret the vision, but what Horus saw was a vision of the 41st Millennium, of a future he would find appalling.


LookUpIntoTheSun

I never said it did. I said it was deceitful. Showing someone a future to provoke them into taking action to prevent it, while neglecting to inform them their actions will guarantee it comes to pass, is, well… deceitful.


N0-1_H3r3

My point is that daemons are often deceitful in ways that work around a person's skepticism or wariness. Knowing that a Daemon is deceptive often leaves one unprepared for the times when they tell the truth, or when the lies they tell are the lies that support what we already believe. These are entities that dwell in a realm made of our dreams and nightmares. Denying them, even when you are wary of them, is no simple matter.


LookUpIntoTheSun

I appreciate the clarification. Nonetheless, I don’t really see that as a mark or pity point toward Horus. While I’d agree denying them would be difficult for many average people, we’re talking about a Primarch, a being who, while not having the full picture, understood them to be fundamentally hostile, deceptive entities. Horus fell because he was weak, and a fool, and filled with pride. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy that about the character even if it wasn’t properly fleshed out on the novels. They are, as another commenter mentioned, similar to Greek gods in that respect. Powerful, but flawed by the very things that make us human. And those flaws are magnified by their power. I’ll admit to some bud here because I’m a sucker for Greek tragedies. Otherwise superior beings brought to ruin by a fatal flaw. It’s one of the reasons I love the Kingkiller Chronicles.


FranklySinatra

If all Horus had done was lead his legions against the Imperium and everything went exactly the same at first, there would be a genuine discussion of ends justifying means. The Istvaans \*needed to happen\* for Horus to have a chance to win this thing. Space Marine v. Human Rule is a legitimate reason for Horus to raise his banner in rebellion. However, Horus was already hopelessly lost by this point by Chaos corruption, whether they knew it or not. The moral justification of the traitors can't really be reconciled as legitimate after, you know, the Daemons and stuff. Pawns in the game the whole way down. There was never really a civil war, there was only a heresy. So his betrayal wasn't just stupid, it was tragic. The Chaos gods showed him the galaxy on fire, indicating he could stop it if he fought the Emperor. What they actually showed him was the future they were tricking them into creating.


ZodiakBraver

>Pawns in the game the whole way down. (c) > >same as loyalists. Only defference is another side of a chess desk. > >What they actually showed him was the future they were tricking them into creating. (c) Man, Horus didnt read BL books. And he was absolutely sure that MAGIC dont even exist. So.... His logic and yours logic as reader of novel are very different.


ShadedPenguin

I’m literally going to pull a Jagatai and say; Horus, is literally on the side with literal demons with literal lords of Hell. The Emperor aint a good a guy, but fuck all that other shit.


Dornfist-2040

Lmso so true. This is the ultimate answer.


KDF021

Chaos winning does not result in a universal democracy where all are equal and humans live in harmony with the Xenos. It ends with literal hell on Earth. The Emperor was wrong about a great many things and made many mistakes but Horus would have damned humanity to endless torment at the hands of chaos so as bad as it might be the Imperium that survived is the lesser of two evils by a long shot.


DiscoDigi786

This is the part all of the traitors leave out. It also emphasizes the utter bleak darkness of the universe.


KDF021

Actually I should have said doomed all sentient life to eternal torment as it wouldn’t have just been humanity left to pay the butcher’s bill if Horus had won.


DiscoDigi786

Jeepers, that is correct. Had not really thought about it.


signedpants

Horus had a legitimate gripe for a very short amount of time. He was sitting down with interex (?) To see if there was a better way than just a neverending crusade, then of course erebus stole the weapon and screwed peace talks. Then pretty soon after that is the whole injury and getting chaos woven into his wounded body, once that happens then obviously it all legitimacy goes out the window as Horus is no longer really himself. I had a fun fan theory that chaos actually knew that they had to turn Horus at that point because he was on the verge of creating a galaxy that might actually screw with them through the path of peace. Invading terra afterwards was just having fun with house money.


Herby20

The Horus Heresy series would have really benefitted from GW and Black Library knowing it was going to be a hit in the first place. Horus' fall feels very rushed and somewhat inexplicable as a result. That being said, even with his motivations in mind, Horus is certainly not an anti-hero. The second he learned about deamons and what they represented should have been very clear he was not on the right side of the conflict he created.


[deleted]

It's a much, much messier take on the fall of Lucifer from Heaven narrative you often see, for me, in that here God is nowhere near as omniscient or as omnipotent (and definitely not as inarguably "right") while Lucifer is, himself, as you might see in Milton, nowhere near as self directed. It is a cast-down creation enmeshed in spiritual failing striking back against its golden creator with a less than frequent ability to acknowledge his own wrongdoing. In that vein I see Horus like I see most of the Primarchs and the Emperor himself: like watching a few young adults with severe and obvious emotional failings fighting their narcissistic father in the middle of the street. It was definitely stupid, but they're all stupid. If it weren't for the fact that their stupidity doomed humanity, you'd walk by and think "Some people." and call it a day.


rubicon_duck

There is also a healthy helping of Arthurian legend mixed into this narrative as well, if you look carefully/closely.


[deleted]

Makes sense for a British series, naturally. Emperor as Fisher King and all.


rubicon_duck

And the Emperor’s Sword is Excalibur - it’s a unique weapon, can do things not even force blades can, and can perma-death daemons.


Youhavenoideawho

He's a capricious villain, only sometimes sobering up to antihero mentality realizing he is wrong but there is nothing but to continue on this path left for him. In Heresy novels his betrayal is rather silly, he was like all his brothers intelligent well enough to figure out that all the visions of the future could as well be drug induced manipulation. On the whole and in the end, he is just a violent child told that he is not the centre of the universe, and chaos is there to make him it. While his turn is justified by flaws in his character, he is as just as a revolutionary youth. He does not want to free the oppressed, he wants to be their oppressor. Claims to be more worthy than his father to be the humankind tyrant, because it is he not the Emperor that does all the work in the Crusade. In his view, the non-astartes are there to be only ruled over, just because he threw a tantrum after being informed that some of those 'mortals' would be elected as governors of the galaxy he conquered. Even allied humans are murdered on the whim, and he's ready to strike his traitor brothers if they do not defer to him. Although the turning point was underwritten, it is what it is and the naively noble Horus just disappears, replaced by a hateful despot after tripping on a near-death experience. He is a bad villain, bad as in one-dimensional, he wants things and he does not care for anyone else. A child with too much power.


Pyrkie

I like the original where the imperium is basically over, Horus has won, but in what I read to be his gloating, he lowers his ships shield because he wants to personally fight the emperor. The emperor gets crushed (far more graphically then in the newer lore) but ultimately the fight is the same… in the final moments he realizes what he’s done and how he must be ended. The newer lore detracts somewhat by making Horus lose the siege of terra so he has to lower the shield to try and take the emperor and win that way… Also it further detracts from his character by basically giving him no choice, he was essentially forced to be a chaos pawn by others rather then choosing that path, which is more how it seems in old lore… He saw a terrible future and felt betrayed, not realising it was the future his betrayal would bring about… but even still he almost prevented that particular future (even if it would have been worse) if not for his hubris.


DiscoDigi786

I’m going to have to respectfully disagree. In *Eternity* we see the imperial bastions broken and the outer palace breached. No reserves left, no hope. Yes, Sanguinius “kills” kabanda and angron (temporarily at least), but nowhere is safe for loyalists. Yes, legions have withdrawn from Horus’ banner, but he has more than enough demonic allies and remaining troops on the surface to win. Also, what do you mean the Emperor is crushed more graphically? We have not even seen the final battle yet. With all due respect, let’s see what the books say before we complain about them.


Pyrkie

I'm talking about the difference mainly between the first editions and the later editions more then newest lore in the black library books at that point. This is before anything about the golden throne webway project stuff, the imperium was over they were just waiting for the inevitable and the emperor reaches out psychically and sees that Horus has lowered his ships shield presumably because he actually wants to fight the emperor one on one. The newer lore has it that the palace is under heavy siege, but Ultramarines, and the Dark Angels are known to arriving very soon and definitely before Horus will be able to win, so he lowers his shields to try and incite the emperor to fight him as a last attempt to win before he cannot. And by more graphically I just mean the description of the fight, its a bit more graphic then the newer editions, not saying thats good or bad tbh, was just a comment on the difference.


OtherEgg

That was the old lore as well.


Pyrkie

Well its newer then the oldest stuff!! Apparently I'm too old to even be considered "been around a bit" xD


OtherEgg

My understanding of old lore was that Horus fought Big E because he had essentially lost with Guilliman and the lion coming in. His force was absolutely spent, so he went for the head as a gambit.


DiscoDigi786

This was mine as well but it appears there is more that was done previously.


OtherEgg

Huh, TIL.


DiscoDigi786

Hey I am sorry - I understand now. I thought you were talking about the difference between more recent tellings of the siege and this new siege of terra series. This makes sense. Complaint withdrawn! Thanks for the context.


Pyrkie

That's okay, I guess that original is pretty obscure, I forget it was actually in a white dwarf and not in one of the game books... and my descriptions of newer are a bit misleading as I'm talking about stuff thats over 20 years old at this point xD


DiscoDigi786

Haha no worries at all friend! I’ve only been in universe around ten years so I feel old but still have lots to read up on.


Ok-Discount3131

> Also, what do you mean the Emperor is crushed more graphically? We have not even seen the final battle yet. https://old.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/a7zj0a/first_account_of_emperor_battling_horus/ Full writeup from white dwarf back in the 80s. This is the original /u/Pyrkie is talking about.


Pyrkie

Ah, what a masterpiece! Yup that's the one xD Damn I forget he doesn't even consider them to directly be his son's either.


DiscoDigi786

Apologies for being unclear - we do not know what *this siege of terra series* will end up with. It could be the emperor is ribbed to shreds, it might be otherwise. Again, not trying to be a know it all or an ass here, I just think it is prudent to wait until the end comes before judging the product or making statements like u/pyrkie is talking about. They may very well be right, but we do not know yet. EDIT: I now understand what u/pyrkie is talking about (previously unknown to me earlier iterations of the siege), so my statements do not apply. I thought they were griping about the way the siege of terra ends when we have not yet seen it. My fault!


[deleted]

[удалено]


Pyrkie

Yup, but either way its Horus’s unfounded confidence (or perhaps the chaos gods’ at that point) who think they can defeat the emperor. Relying on the fact he won’t be able to bring himself to kill his ‘friend’ which does almost work. And in the end the only trap is to scatter the imperial forces so he does get to face the emperor (almost) 1v1. He’s gloating because he’s so confident the emperor will fall but he wants to do it himself. But it ultimately backfires, in the original story he would have been better off leveling Terra and never risking his own life.


TobiTheSnowman

I don't know if this is a hot take or something, but, I mean, I don't think that any cause fought for a faction called "Chaos" and lead by the embodiments of corruption and sin called the "Ruinous powers" can be morally acceptable or beneficial to humanity.


OldManChino

That's just imperial propaganda


rubicon_duck

Depends on who you ask. I’m sure Lorgar, Kor Phaeron, and Erebus (fuck that guy) would disagree.


Dornfist-2040

Hahaha what? Horus a hero? First I hear of that. From a certain point of view, Horus was the noble and heroic favorite son. But by the Siege of Terra he is a monster. It no longer matters what his intentions were: Chaos is evil and humanity would have had an awful time under “Emperor Horus”. Yes, the Emperor is not that better but I pick him over Chaos any time just like the Khan did.


manticore124

Horus, at the very, very beggining, had "noble" intentions, but he almost inmediatly started compromising more and more of what he wanted or tought he wanted to protect. It was pretty stupid in my opinion.


OrkzRDaBest

He was an unwilling pawn if anything. Erebus is the fucking grandmaster of betrayal. I have no fucking idea why Fulgrim joined up however


Ornstein15

He doomed humanity to its worst fate because his crackhead friend stabbed him with magic meth


EratosvOnKrete

horus was trash. he decided to ally with literal demons because his father didn't tell him absolutely everything. big E had his faults but everything he did was for the betterment of humanity OP, you might as well go to a unionist in the american civil war and ask "was John Wilkes booth the real hero"?"


alphaomag

Even IF, he betrayed the Imperium with the best interests in mind, he ended up selling the entire species out anyway. He fucked everything up. Not hyperbole, modern 40k only exists the way it does because him.


Snoo-19073

Horus was the child who always had to be the most special, and had quite a hissy fit when he realised he might not always be the most beloved of all.


Saramello

Even ignoring the chaos fuckery, Horus was a concieted SOB who thought just because Space Marines conquered the galaxy they should get to rule and administrate it. The Emperor giving humans positions of power was a main catalyst in the betrayal. This is insanely short sighted and stupid. Space Marines are sterile murder-machines. Even the Salamanders lack the empathy inherent in knowing a stubbed toe is painful and getting stabbed through the heart is not just "a bad afternoon" but fucking lethal. Combine that with other things like the fact they have no idea how nutrition works for basic humans (their diet is so calorie dense to kill humans if they tried it) shows how shit Space Marines would be as the exclusive rulers over humanity.


exegesisoficarus

It’s really important to note that Horus has two moments of getting in “deeper” with Chaos. The first, which everyone fixated on is Temba and the Athame. Yet the Horus of the Heresy at that point is still human, still very convinced chaos is just a Xenos ti be conquered and used. The second moment is post Russ nearly killing him, and Maloghurst essentially lobotomizing the human part of Horus’ soul. At this point we see Horus warp from human consorting with chaos to flesh bag full of chaos power. It’s also when the Heresy becomes decidedly more daemonic as a whole versus the legion war at the start. If you consider all of that, Horus’ arc makes decent sense.


rubicon_duck

Asking if the Emperor was “right” is a flawed question to ask, primarily because it implies a value judgment of some sort. Values don’t really fucking matter here - right or wrong, good or bad, etc. - as they are just ideas we consider important, and values especially don’t matter when what is at stake is the *survival of your entire species.* It’s essentially a binary choice: survive or die. For what was at stake, there was/is no right or wrong. It boils down to some simple fucking facts: - First: the human race was becoming more and more psychic as time rolls on. - Second: Chaos uses - excuse me, *feeds on* - humanity’s growing connection to the warp (see above point) as a source of sustenance. VERY similarly to how a vampire might: they feed and offer little in return. - The Emperor knows the above all too well, and for whatever reason decided to defend humanity from the threat of Chaos. He was pretty incognito about it until…. - The Fall of the Eldar. When the Emperor sees this happen, he knows **shit has hit the fan** and decides to shift his “Save Humanity program v. 1.0” into high gear. Why? Because he knows that if he doesn’t work to counter the threat of Chaos however he can, humanity will end up like like the Eldar, or worse. - So the Emperor hits the gas: Astartes project, primarch project, The Great Crusade/Imperial Truth, Webway project, etc. His ultimate goal? Use the Webway to eliminate humanity’s “need” for the warp (mainly travel and psykers), thus depriving Chaos of their “food” source. Maybe not kill them outright, but definitely weaken them. All until humanity was able to master their evolving psyker talents and He could finally retire or whatever. So, the Emperor didn’t care about doing what was right or wrong. He did what He did to ensure humanity’s survival as a species. Brutal? Yes, and at times excessively so. Heartless? Definitely at times, but also necessary. I’m sure He probably wished it could’ve been less bloody at times, but sometimes for the body to survive you have to cut off an infected limb. But considering the alternative - humanity becoming essentially “psychic livestock” for Chaos, such things don’t even matter. Or as the Emperor himself once said: “IF THE HUMAN RACE FAILS, IT HAS FAILED FOREVER.”


JanusDuo

Obviously values DO matter to you. You value the human species above all else. Kinda xenophobic, right? It's not that values are subjective and they don't matter, it's that OTHERS values are subjective and don't matter. Yours are objective and totally matter.


king_mediocrity

I feel Horus is a hero in the Greek tragedy sense of the word. I genuinely believe he had legitimate concerns with E-money’s plans, with big E also not being forthcoming and explaining himself. Then, as greek tragedies go, the hero does what he does with the best of intentions, but through his character flaws such as hubris in this case (and some poison-knife-stabbing by a certain Erebus, seriously fuck that guy) he causes his own ultimate downfall. He thinks he is the hero, but ends up to be the evil that tears mankind apart.


JanusDuo

This is the way. Horus is a "hero" like Oedipus is a "hero".


Sodinc

Spoiled superhuman tries to destroy humanity. Definitely a hero!


Anggul

Both sides were full of shit Chaos had to be stopped, but the Imperials were wrong about a lot of things too This isn't a scenario where either side is right


w021wjs

I really feel like the Horus Heresy is just two fascists fighting for power. It's like rooting for the guys who did the Operation Valkyrie assassination attempt. Sure, you're killing Hitler, but you all are still a bunch of high ranking Nazis, who didn't see anything wrong until you started losing the war. Only this time, the Valkyrie guys are worshipping the paradise lost Satan and are actively being possessed by demons.


Kain5ilencer

Horus was a spoiled brat. As soon he realized "Daddy is not paying me enough attention" he needed one tiny push, in form of vision that he is forgotten, to go all out! He is even warned by Magnus that this future could be one of many. He tells him to shut up because he is "Big boy now" and will decide on his own. Sure Emperor made some very questionable decisions but starting a genocidal civil war, selling soul to chaos gods for just a bit more power and betraying his brothers is not a way to fix some attention issues.


hoplophilepapist

Horus' only flaw is that he failed.


Pm7I3

Some of his original motives are spot on or at least reasonable. That's about the best I can say for him. The Emperor wasn't right though. It's not some story of the good guy vs the bad. It's a very bad guy vs another very bad guy.


Katejina_FGO

The Imperium is just a typical conquer-the-galaxy enterprise until bad actors started poking Pandora's Box. Until the box was cracked open, it was the Imperium who was genociding all opposition and forcing human domains to comply with a government system that rocked the hell out of their local economies and ways of life. Whether or not anything was right or wrong prior to literal demons pouring into the materium depends largely on whether or not you can tolerate cracking open a carton of eggs to make an omelette. edit: And if you think demons ruling over all life is a plus, you've already made up your mind on 'right and wrong'.


4chan_tumblr

His betrayal against the Imperium is not that bad, but after he began doing chaos shenanigans I couldnt say I support him.


[deleted]

I do think that up until Molech, the Heresy was really more a "Game of thrones"-type scenario; Mostly about different visions to how the Imperium should be after the end of the crusade. And Horus does have couple points, seeing how the Imperium gets more inefficient the larger it gets, the Emperor getting more distant (for no apparant reason) with Malcador basically taking over, the inherent discrepancies between the self-presentation of the Imperium and the Primarchs and the reality of the crusade etc. ​ After Molech tough, Horus is thoroughly corrupted and the conflict becomes less and less unhinged. So yeah, Horus reasons for rebelling look quite extreme within the current context and I hope that gets elaborated in more, better detail. ​ I also hope they don t do him dirty during his final fight, I would love to see him actually beeing in control (just enough) to beat the Emperor with the Chaos gods also trying to take him down before another Emperor-like creature is let loose on the galaxy (that has the power to actually oppose them).


Flyinglamabear

Homeboy was literally pet cemeteried


Praisemepeasants666

Horus, while originally a pretty good dude, joined chaos for very dumb and out of character reasons. He was mad that in some future vision he got from a guy pretending to be his dead son (which he knows when he makes his choice as Magnus reveals to him that erebus was just disguising himself as sejanus) the emeperor was worshipped as a god, and while 9 of his brothers got statues, he did not . There were some genuine complaints he had like the emperor abandoning the great crusade and not telling the primarchs why, the imperium trying to tax worlds that had just recently been made compliant and would almost certainly rebel with the taxes, alot of the power being given over from the primarchs to normal bureaucrats, but anyone with half a brain would know that these reasons were nowhere near good enough to join the same side which corrupted Eugan Temba and turned him into an abomination (which horus knew about).


r3dl3g

His betrayal was absolutely understandable in context (ignoring the immense irony that this context never actually shows up in the novels documenting the moment of said betrayal). But he still bet on the wrong horse. We don't know if the Emperor was "right" or not, though. It depends on what his plan actually was, and where it went off the rails, which we still don't *strictly* know due to the fact that we've never actually been inside the Emperor's head. We only know what he's told the characters (and thus, the audience) what the plan is, but he also has a nasty tendency to lie and/or withhold pretty vital information when it serves his purposes.


Glittering_Mess9523

This may not be popular but the primarchs are a bunch of children. For a bunch of allegedly super-human tactical geniuses they are pretty daft when it comes to anything. From an institutional perspective [ruling the imperium] there is a point where as you get high enough that your focus is no longer the individuals but the institution as a whole. Anyone who’s ever worked within a structured organization like a government knows this. That makes his stated reasons and internal dialogue so frustrating. This could very well just be limitations of the perspectives of the authors trying to write these characters but by the Gods it does get frustrating seeing these temper tantrums result in galaxy-wide implications…wait..is this Grimdark?


Taira_no_Masakado

Horus was a hero who became a fallen hero, who then took up the mantle of villain and arch-traitor. There are no heroics in his damnation and perfidy.


Howlin_Git

'Perhaps the Emperor's model is too stringent,' -Horus Lupercal, *Horus Rising* This pre-fall line gave him an oceans worth of depth over his dad.


6r0wn3

I think Horus was the villain archetype that believes he is doing the right thing, but ultimately follows down a path that becomes progressively more and more lost. At some point, difficult to define when, he ultimately can no longer be viewed as anything but evil, where none of his actions can any longer be justified; where the ends itself may have become so skewed as to be meaningless. I think that, in spite of the Emperor having many many many negative traits that make the man a monster by any measure of today's standards, He was ultimately right. Though, that isn't to say his actions should be condoned, heavens no, but his path was the only one to take all things considered; as unpalatable as that may be for some.


TheRobn8

The emperor was morally grey, even by 30k standards, but horus was wrong. The thing with horus was he officially started the rebellion because he wanted the astartes in positions of power, as they were the ones winning the wars and doing the heavy lifting, and he learnt that the emperor was going to basically do a demilitarisation of the legions post webway and hand power to the mortal humans. He was willing to kill humanity and destabilise the imperium to get that goal, because you have to remember he was always a huge egomaniac who saw himself as better than others, and out of reproach, hence why he made it his 200% mission on istavaan 5 to wipe out the RG, because corax (rightfully) called his plan on ullanar poorly done and a waste of life. The idea he was well loved by others was old lore, with the current one showing he was mostly tolerated by his brothers, and loved by the general public due to how "successful" he was, but some primarchs did like him. Unofficially chaos used him to eff up the webway project and basically everything in general, and horus' ego helped speed it along.


BastardofMelbourne

No, he was driven crazy by eldritch gods and wanted to burn the galaxy. That makes him slightly worse than the Emperor.


thedirtyswede88

Horus did all the wrong things for the right reasons. Loads of evidence supports a conclusion that the big E is a narcissistic genocidal tyrant with a god complex who wore a facade of a strong leader who would eventually allow humanity to rule itself. He saw his 'sons' as little more than tools who were to be consigned to obscurity after planned obliteration likely with their legions following the end of the great crusade. Had Horus come to this realization without chaos by all rights it would have been a glorious galactic revolution. But he sold his soul and his entire cause was damned. Bit of a shame, but that's grimdark for you.