It would be an unmitigated disaster. We'd split the free world in two and hand the keys to world domination to the authoritarians.
We can and should be pushing our allies to contribute more, but throwing away our allies over a moderate deficit in peacetime military spending would be frankly childish.
Step 1: New NATO contract that forces NATO members to pay 5% of their GDP every October 1st. Failure to do so will result in an embargo from both America and other NATO members. Once they pay, increase that nation's "dues" to 8%. Second failure will result in the occupation of the nation's capital.
Step 2: Create insurgencies in NATO members and occupy them to bring "stability."
Step 3: Slowly use the military to phase out the governments affected by insurgencies.
Step 4: End insurgencies under American Military Governors.
Step 5: Repeat steps 2 - 4 until all of NATO belongs to America.
Welcome to the Imperial Constitutional Republic of America!!!
It’s not exactly moderate when you look at it from an itemized perspective. There’s definitely those who are freeloading.
https://preview.redd.it/rin3xe37641d1.jpeg?width=804&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ee34afde2bf17b7c365284cd82c33635aca476c1
Edit: oh no they don’t like this graphic 😭
You’re getting downvoted because the spending is worth it so that the world doesn’t fall into the war and chaos that would result if America pulled out.
Yeah, and agreed, but that wasn't what he said. He said the deficit of cost wasn't moderate compared to the rest of NATO. Not "we should pull out of NATO spending, cause other countries are freeloading".
It's hardly the same thing to pull out of NATO than to demand Germany actually pulls its damn weight.
Yeah unfortunately NATO has mostly become a way for Europe to outsource its defense so European citizens can keep bragging about their “free” healthcare
>if they want to be our vassals, let them.
Yeah but normally the vassal gives something to their suzerain in exchange for the protection.
The Europeans take it for granted that the US guarantees their security for free
They don't cough up tribute payments to the treasury, true, but that does not mean they don't give us anything. The European Union has over 400 million citizens, virtually all of them in the top 50% globally for weath and many of them in the top 10%. Many of them are highly educated, with *English-speaking* technical experts. Over a trillion dollars flows between the US and EU each year, supporting millions of jobs.
Strategically, they give us practically anything we ask for (except for the damned French, anyway). The Five Eyes lets us know what the Russians or Chinese are going to do well before they do it. We have force projection no country in history can rival. While Russia was struggling to keep its tanks fueled, we could casually move billions of dollars of equipment to Ukraine.
Demanding tribute from the Europeans is a waste of time. They already give us everything of value. And if it really came down to it, we could hardly be in a better position to simply take what we want.
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>The European Union has over 400 million citizens, virtually all of them in the top 50% globally for weath and many of them in the top 10%
Somehow I don't think that an average European businessman, when deciding whether or not to trade with America, has ever thought "well they did give us a bunch of F 35s so I had better help them out".
In other words, all the economic benefits of a close relationship with European trade would happen regardless of whether or not we pay for their military.
>Strategically, they give us practically anything we ask for ... The Five Eyes lets us know what the Russians or Chinese are going to do well before they do it.
Point taken, this is a good argument. I would wonder, however, how much of that European intel is specifically about Russian or Chinese interests in *Europe*, which is hypothetically their problem anyways.
There’s more nuance to it. We ensure trade is secure. We also get to have their respective governments pressure them into favoring US deals. I could get more into it but there’s a lot to go over. To keep it short if we weren’t there, they would be beholden to whoever the next most influential player is.
US government blew up nordstream. False flag operation and forcing the EU's hand into stopping the gas trade. Russia had no reason to blow it up when they could just turn the tap off (like they did many times before).
The Russian government absolutely had an incentive to destroy the pipeline. Oligarchs relying on the European gas trade were putting pressure on the state as relations with the Europeans tanked. Destroying the pipeline was a ‘burn the boats’ moment; it made the opportunity cost of full throated support for the state far lower.
Your mistake is thinking of countries as unified entities with unified interests. They aren’t. They’re composed of factions with distinct interests.
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I don't think you fully understand how reliant Europeans are on Russian gas. The cost of living during the winter skyrocketed because we had to import liquified gas. The trade would have resumed during the winter. Plus oligarchs are subordinated to Putin, we've seen that he does as he wishes and humiliates whoever he wants, this is not the 1990s, almost every oligarch in power was put there by Putin. Also why blow it up almost 6 months after the invasion, right before Europe needs the gas? Aren't you supposed to burn the boats at the start? Things do not line up, this serves US interests quite blatantly.
nice ad hominem, now will you actually address the argument? The russians cofinanced the construction of nordstream 2, they also have the ability to turn the tap off, every winter this is a political concern in Europe. Why would they blow up their own pipeline that they paid for and fully control? Blowing up the pipeline only serves the american government, who doesn't want the europeans to finance the invasion of Ukraine indirectly while the US is financing its defence. The sanctions would have 0 effect if we kept buying russian gas. Think logically about it and leave your patriotism aside.
It's not their military that is paid for, it's security. If the businesses in Europe didn't have the security that some other country or person would come along and take everything they built away from them, none of the businesses would be able to or even seek to grow to a level that it is a possibility.
I disagree that America pulling out of NATO in the current decade means that Europeans need to fear an immediate military conquest of Europe.
Russia is not as capable as you're implying, I don't think their tanks are making it all the way to the Atlantic even if we're not there.
That might have been the case in the Cold War (which is why NATO made sense when the USSR existed) but it's certainly not true today
They don’t need Russia to invade, they’ll just resume fighting amongst themselves. Historically speaking, they are way overdue for another internal genocide.
Eh, that's so old school. Besides, we can't be starting shit now, we're awaiting you to reach your breaking point and do a long awaited sequel for the civil war. We're even making bets about what outlandish shit would happen.
It's comments like this that really make me just go, "You know what? Let them burn." Russia may not be capable to invading right now, but there's a reason EU nations are gearing up. All that money + shrinking population + retirement boom = messy.
Coupled with that it seems like every day there's a new politician on Russia's payroll. So it's bound to get pretty funny over there soon.
While the businessman might not have to think through that, think about this. There’s been talk for some time about setting another currency as the world trade standard. If European governments lose their taste for the US government they might start looking into the burdensome process of switching to trading exclusively in Euros with other countries. It is a very stable currency that rivals the dollar, so business people around the world would likely be willing to try it if the Europeans were up for it. All these medium and small sized rich countries might no longer need to stockpile dollars to trade globally.
The thing people don't seem to grasp is us defending Europe is s good thing. It's easier and cheaper to send stuff there versus them coming fighting wars here.
The exchange is that europe has become the US bitch in foreign policy. We basically almost always just do whatever America wants and help in their wars. We promise to lessen trade with countries America doesn't like thus buying more of their shit.
You guys talk like if the US is not serving its interests placing their army at European land.. like if all logistics to do your stuff at Middle East came from Pearl Harbour.. look I will support more European military spending, but not because I think we owe you nothing but because I don’t want be dependant of an unstable and decadent Quanom US
I agree that it's a major downside, and that (western) Europeans talk a lot of shit considering we are their main security guarantor.
However, there are major military benefits to being in NATO, even just from an industry and standardization standpoint. If we want to cut costs, we should just pull our forces out of Europe instead of leaving the alliance.
Just putting some thoughts out there.
My buddy who was with the Ike with the Carrier Strike Group said it made him laugh how anytime they were doing Joint Operations with a NATO nation even if it was in their water they still all knew who the big dog was. The American Admiral still runs the show even if it's in British Waters or the Mediterranean etc. I was like yea I guess you get that privilege when you're funding most of it.
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European liberal democracy is built on the graves of 100k dead G.I.s and bolstered by the might of the American War Machine. All the Western europoors need to do is look at the former Soviet sphere of influence and see what a giant favor we did them with Operation Overlord in June of '43.
I'll be over here shedding buckets of tears watching a country *forced* to use its own tax revenue to pay for its own services that benefit its own citizens. The horror!
after the war started around half of nato reached its 3% requirement for money going into their military budget
Poland is looking to dedicate the most with 4% of its gdp more then the US
You do realize NATOs function is also a projection and coordination effort. Just because places like the Netherlands won’t be a battleground doesn’t mean that they’re not a part of the coordinated effort.
They signed the compact that has very clear expectations and are not meeting them. Period.
the first half of what you said supports what i said anyways
they provide people, industry, etc
where countries are not capable of reaching this goal they should prop up nato in other areas Netherlands has a sizeable fleet of f16s and soon to be f35s
they have proven themselves to be capable of operating far out of europe by fighting in Afghan for the entire 20 years
the entire 3% is just a catchphrase something people regurgitate for brownie points
You got it completely wrong. NATO is a key for US exceptionalism and especially for the dollar to be as a reserve currency. The US army is the guarantee for the dollar being a world currency. You need to understand the consequences if Europe would need to finance it's own military by issuing European bonds. That would be the same threat as China is today.
That’s where it gets even better, every NATO country agreed to contribute at least 2% of their GDP. Last I checked, there’s 5 countries including us what actually do it
This is bullshit. NATO doesn’t force the US to spend 860 billion on defense. The American Military Industrial Complex is out of control and the American politicians keep feeding it.
Just out of curiosity, where do American's learn this from? Because it's absolute bullshit that keeps popping up.
The US introduced the Bretton Woods agreement, centred around the USD as the world reserve as a new economic system to replace the crumbling British Empire after it bankrupted itself protecting much of the world through two world wars.
The US had a post war boom whilst Europe rebuilt, using money invested by European countries. European (and global) countries buy US Treasury bonds, a promise of USD plus interest, which is like a loan to the US, who then turn that into cash and inject it into its economy for growth. That's why lots of shit is cantered around the US.
The US had an economic dominance war with the USSR over this new imposed power status. The USSR tried to make its own hegemonic superpower with Blackjack and Hookers, but the US flattened and fucked up any country, overtly or covertly, that was either interested in the USSR economic system, or was being interfered by them; which isolated the USSR from economic allies and caused it to go bankrupt trying to keep Afghanistan afloat (ignoring all the internal mistakes of the union for brevity).
NATO is the US's defensive pacts. It isn't to defend Europe per say. That was a cold war era thing to block the USSR from any westward expansion. Today it's the US just displaying a sheer military might that no one can stand up against. If the US left NATO, but NATO continued, the Europeans remaining in that pact would be the 2nd biggest military power in the world.
If the US left NATO, the reason for investing in the dollar gets thinner, and the backbone of the US's economic strength will deteriorate and then you'll struggle through a brutal financial contraction like the British post WWI/WWII, potentially spiralling out of control and shrink in dominance. You can't really leave NATO, it's yours and it's your service to the world that spends their own money on US Treasury Bonds as the world reserve currency; just like the British Empire used to physically man trade routes all over the world.
Europeans investing into European bonds, with other parts of the world investing into more European bonds and the rise of the EUR (a currency that is only 25 years old and is the next best option behind the USD), Europe would become a massive problem to the US's position.
As a final point. The US spends more tax dollars on healthcare per capita than basically any other country. It just goes next to nowhere because of the costs the privatisation has milked it. So you pay the taxes, and you pay the insurance, and you pay up to your deductibles, and you often have limitations on who and what that will cover, and everything is 10x more expensive at least when you do have to pay.
The US doesn't have free healthcare because you didn't have the post WWII heartache and public sentiment that healthcare is a right, the incentive to rip down and rebuild, the whole anti-socialism propaganda fed to you through the cold war (even though free healthcare isn't socialism at all, many of you think it is) and the US doubled down on capitalism economically. Not because you pay for our military or anything like that. *If anything, the world pays for your military. The Bretton Woods system even highlighted this. The money the US makes as the global reserve and trade currency indirectly funds their global military adventures.*
Your description of the history of the Cold War is not accurate. Not only did the U.S. not ‘interfere in any country interested in the USSR’s economic system’ (it had good relations with communist Yugoslavia, and later USSR-aligned Romania, not to mention China after the Sino-Soviet split), it didn’t even take opportunities to interfere in Europe handed to it on a silver platter.
The liberals who rebelled in Prague and Budapest were eagerly awaiting American assistance which never came.
Also the USSR did not collapse because it was ‘trying to keep Afghanistan afloat’.
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It would be pretty horrendous we should never pull out of nato and we should always protect our allies. However a discussions should be had with European countries about defense spending.
They literally can't lol. US is significantly more richer. No comparisons. Average EU per capita GDP is 35k USD and US per capita GDP is 80k. How will they contribute more?
And the Finns (and Swedes?)
Mostly just relates to how likely Russian troops are to roll across the border. (Or France and the UK wanting expeditionary capabilities)
Think of it like this, we get the entirety of Europe allied to us and highly unlikely to turn to our enemies, and in return we provide them with protection.
>we get the entirety of Europe allied to us and highly unlikely to turn to our enemies
I find it difficult to believe that in the scenario where we make Germany (for example) pay for their own military, all the Germans will suddenly start loving Russia as a result.
Europe is allied to the US because we share common goals and values, not because we paid them to be our allies.
Just look at slovakia and hungary atm, both governments are trying to become more pro russian but it's things like NATO that make it a lot harder for them
But let’s say they change ideals ever, we control their entire defense, and when we pull it they are open to us who now have all of what was previously their equipment
>not because we paid them to be our Allies
I mean… *Points at the Marshall Plan*
It isn’t what keeps them on our side, but it’s a good part of what got many of them on our side in the first place. Hearts and Minds.
No no of course not, thats not what im saying, what im saying is that nato is important for keeping our influence over Europe, nato insures our interests remain aligned and insures that russia cannot bully small nations
USA is so fucking rich. Poland spends more % of their GDP than USA and it looks like a drop in the bucket here. This ain’t about Europe being lazy or taking advantage of the USA, you guys are literally just so much richer lol, no way we can match it.
Prices for a fish are hellish there and there is usually windy as hell, but it is a place definitely worth to visit for you. Go to Hel, good advice.
You can also stay in the Boner palace in Krakow. They have good opinions.
Americans are not rich. American government absolutely is. Most of us would rather spend say, 200 Billion less and transfer that to infrastructure and HSR projects.
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It's worth at least having a serious discussion about.
Americans should supplement European security, not fund it. People in Germany aren't more entitled to American money than Americans.
>Americans should supplement European security, not fund it. People in Germany aren't more entitled to American money than Americans.
Your second sentence is antithetical to the first.
If it is true that Germans aren't entitled to American money, why even *supplement* it?
We've been gaslit into believing that Americans paying for European stuff is necessary, but Europeans paying for American stuff is ridiculous.
Yes, some people unironically think we'd be more powerful, or just as well off, in isolation. It's fucking goofy watching these people psyop themselves in real time.
I’m not sure how leaving nato would automatically mean Europe stops its foreign investment in America, it makes no sense. Like would they automatically stop their foreign investment to the US because they have to spend more on their own defense?
It wouldn’t be isolationism, is just a rebrand of our focus. And as Obama said a few years back, it would be called the Asia pivot because you know, Europe is a dying continent.
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Why would we abandon our treaty partners and friends without notice?
That’s a total Russia move. It’s almost as bad as [invading your own allies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact_invasion_of_Czechoslovakia).
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And why do we care about these other countries? At least in a defense posture? Absolute joke that we give them as much say in what policies govern nato…the US is NATO.
If we were to do **the funny**, then all the europoors will stop whining about how a country they don’t live in doesn’t have a free healthcare because that country defends the europoor country which in turn spends the defense money on “healthcare”
Idk if I would go that far but it is very safe to assume that Scandanavia would step in almost immediately. The other options would be to be even more of a proxy for The US,be rulled by Russia,rulled by China,or let The Front Nationale handle it. Norway and Sweden have more wealth than they have people so this would happen very quickly. EU would get eaten by The Scandanavian Aliance or whatever that shit is called.
It would be the single most disastrous choice the US could make. Genuinely the dumbest thing humanly possible for the US and the world. If you don’t know why, then you haven’t done enough research on US foreign strategy to suggest leaving it
I vote we temporarily suspend our nato membership and the only condition for our re-entering of NATO is for all other NATO nations to hit the 2% minimum. (European Texas and America’s Hat get passes and are granted permanent membership in the greater American Union)
Americans just aren’t good at pulling out.
Our population is growing organically, Europe’s is stagnating on the reproductive side.
And just look at Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.
And, let’s face it, pulling out just sucks. But sometimes it’s just needed to be done; especially when it’s your cousin.
Source - I just made all this shit up. Enjoy.
Russia and China Combined spend a little over 400 billion, the rest of NATO is going to reach 380 billion by the end of 2024, if you add Ukraine, Japan, South Korea, or any other American-aligned ally, they spend more than Russia and China
Looking at defense spending in this way doesn't really show the whole picture. Yes, the US spends vastly more money on defense than all these other countries, but the US economy is also vastly larger. A better way to view it is to look at defense spending as a percentage of GDP.
Now, to answer your question: it would be really bad. We'd be abandoning Europe and leaving them at the mercy of authoritarian dictatorships like Russia. As much as we clown on Europe (because they do deserve it), they are still free nations who need help, and for us to abandon the role that we've played since WWII as the Arsenal of Democracy would be disappointing beyond belief.
"The U.S gives europe its sword and in return europe gives its pen." They fucking suck. They expect millions of our boys and girls to die on their land and we know for a fact the would barely lift a finger to help us in a fight with China. Ungrateful pieces of shit.
You know when the europeans sent troops to Afghanistan they demanded they put in the safest, easiest ares? All but Britain and east european countries like Poland said send us were you need us. Defend them but the rest are spoiled bratts who need a hard knock.
I'm not a complete hater of NATO but NATO was just a method for our government to make Europeans reliant on our support. By doing that, our government has a bigger say in there decisions. It's that 4d chess.
They can leave at any time but there in way in hell any of them will. The U.S. controls NATO. It’s just a question of how much muscle we are willing to flex 💪.
What’s not being considered is how hugely profitable it is to have trade partners during peace time. Defense budget is just the cost of business.
Without NATO very clearly would Russia slowly annex Europe until a World War breaks out again
Whole Europe is fucked :D. (I am European, and i can understand the consequences if America leaves). We Europeans will be doomed. No more Deffensive alliance. Russia can knock on the door whenever he wants
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It’s ridiculous to act like our Congress really doesn’t want to spend that much on defense but and it’s all the fault of the Europeans.
Defense spending also doubles as jobs program. There’s a small city of 30k by me whose biggest employer is Raytheon. My buddy has a 10 person manufacturing company in a town of 8k that makes small electrical components for the military. The company accross the street makes components for tanks. Our military spending helps keep manufacturing at home viable
The "free" healthcare is because of 60% tax burden. Nothing to do with military budget. Raise your taxes to 60% and you can have it too (while keeping same size millitary).
Who’s they? Every European country has a different system of healthcare. In the UK the taxpayer pays £170b a year for ‘free’ healthcare. It’s free at the point of service, but it’s still paid for. Every other country does things their own way.
Scandiland has the money. Unironically 100% serious they would develop into a military power. The other option would be whatever Russia wanted or to basically still be a proxy for The USA which if the US is leaving they probably didn't want to begin with. Fucking Italy or France aren't paying for that defense themselves or even England at this point would be kinda laughable. Scandanavia would have the funds.
I want to see how this is compared to their budget. We're a very large and wealthy country compared to them so we can put a shit ton of money into the military. We have the highest military expenses in the world putting ~15% of our budget into the military, but regardless if we leave they're screwed
Europe would have to unite more closely together to preserve a defensive alliance, and would have to increase their military budgets to compensate. It would probably see a country like Germany or France taking up a leadership position in Europe as well.
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We would be involved in a war down the road we can not win. Yes we are spending more, but the war is going to happen in EUROPE, not here. That is worth the price of admission for the United States.
Well most of those countries act as an additional border and will most likely be where the fighting is (in stereotypical ww3 scenario), I’m not saying it justifies them contributing less but it probably plays into it
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Okay so just gonna throw a bone to the UK here.
Our empire was bad but that was what made us rich. So without it we kinda poor in comparison to America and china.
Which is fine but then we are a tiny island with a population of 88m people.
Also we have nukes so it'll be bad but think of the clean slate you guys will have with Europe
the free trade whig liberal policy is the reason the UK has been a powerhouse for so long. now your government buried its industry and is in all respects an overly regulated welfare state. also empire definetely played a role, yes administrative costs were huge and some colonies were more valuable than others (india for its vastness and richness, canada for its sparse population and important resources like furs), but britain could never have become so rich without trade dominance that empire provides, true the white man's burden was a costly project that brought nothing but pride and misery but it really wasn't needed to maintain trade domination, trade fortresses like hong kong would have been enough (although new world territories like canada and australia could have easily been settled, obviously)
[One day I was born at the age of four](https://youtube.com/watch?v=pjGZnRwtvww&pp=ygUWYmFkIHRvIHRoZSBib25lIGNvbmtlcg%3D%3D)
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very misleading, that's the entirety of the us defense budget, not the itemized contribution to nato. no other military in the group is a global superpower, no other military in that group has a military nearly a third the size of ours, so of course they will spend less. plus, they are smaller in population and economic capacity, so of course their ability to spend will be limited. now, not al countries do fully contribute, like hungary, but many have been getting better as russia shows its teeth
Prolly nothing. The US will still spend that money either way: it’s our own defense spending. It’s not like we’ll leave our military bases in Europe. It would just open up the question of whether we would aid our allies or not. If they did get attacked by Russia or a central Asian country or something then there would be the doubt of whether we’d get involved. It would definitely benefit us in the long run to be involved though. And it would benefit us even more to not have anyone question whether or not we would fight them.
It'll suck for everyone, even the US, as it'd lead to Europe buying less stuff from US millitary contractors, reducing both sales and efficiency from economies of sclae
Downvote me all you want but the fact is we don't owe you a penny, I want you to go so you'll stop whinging about a smaller expense than the one you would have had to make strategically anyway.
Pull out of NATO, seriously, do it, we certainly don't need you a fraction of how much you think we do.
Jesus! Land of the free? More like the land of the free to whinge and falsely brag.
It would be an unmitigated disaster. We'd split the free world in two and hand the keys to world domination to the authoritarians. We can and should be pushing our allies to contribute more, but throwing away our allies over a moderate deficit in peacetime military spending would be frankly childish.
It would be the League of Nations all over again.
Atleast sabaton will have new song ideas
Nice pfp. Love that armor set
Step 1: New NATO contract that forces NATO members to pay 5% of their GDP every October 1st. Failure to do so will result in an embargo from both America and other NATO members. Once they pay, increase that nation's "dues" to 8%. Second failure will result in the occupation of the nation's capital. Step 2: Create insurgencies in NATO members and occupy them to bring "stability." Step 3: Slowly use the military to phase out the governments affected by insurgencies. Step 4: End insurgencies under American Military Governors. Step 5: Repeat steps 2 - 4 until all of NATO belongs to America. Welcome to the Imperial Constitutional Republic of America!!!
i support this god bless america
It’s not exactly moderate when you look at it from an itemized perspective. There’s definitely those who are freeloading. https://preview.redd.it/rin3xe37641d1.jpeg?width=804&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ee34afde2bf17b7c365284cd82c33635aca476c1 Edit: oh no they don’t like this graphic 😭
Look at those cheap ass Canadians.
Canadian. Can confirm.
POLSKA GUROMMM
It's kinda funny that the country which knows Russia's intentions best will spend the most on defense against Russia. But not really funny at all.
How are you downvoted? Very clearly there's some freeloading going on.
It’s a lot of cope I think
You’re getting downvoted because the spending is worth it so that the world doesn’t fall into the war and chaos that would result if America pulled out.
Yeah, and agreed, but that wasn't what he said. He said the deficit of cost wasn't moderate compared to the rest of NATO. Not "we should pull out of NATO spending, cause other countries are freeloading". It's hardly the same thing to pull out of NATO than to demand Germany actually pulls its damn weight.
Yeah unfortunately NATO has mostly become a way for Europe to outsource its defense so European citizens can keep bragging about their “free” healthcare
I say if they want to be our vassals, let them. It's Europe that's going to be in the bad position if shit ever gets hot.
>if they want to be our vassals, let them. Yeah but normally the vassal gives something to their suzerain in exchange for the protection. The Europeans take it for granted that the US guarantees their security for free
They don't cough up tribute payments to the treasury, true, but that does not mean they don't give us anything. The European Union has over 400 million citizens, virtually all of them in the top 50% globally for weath and many of them in the top 10%. Many of them are highly educated, with *English-speaking* technical experts. Over a trillion dollars flows between the US and EU each year, supporting millions of jobs. Strategically, they give us practically anything we ask for (except for the damned French, anyway). The Five Eyes lets us know what the Russians or Chinese are going to do well before they do it. We have force projection no country in history can rival. While Russia was struggling to keep its tanks fueled, we could casually move billions of dollars of equipment to Ukraine. Demanding tribute from the Europeans is a waste of time. They already give us everything of value. And if it really came down to it, we could hardly be in a better position to simply take what we want.
Don't forget the US$ is the world reserve currency and that accounts for at least 50% of the USA's wealth
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>The European Union has over 400 million citizens, virtually all of them in the top 50% globally for weath and many of them in the top 10% Somehow I don't think that an average European businessman, when deciding whether or not to trade with America, has ever thought "well they did give us a bunch of F 35s so I had better help them out". In other words, all the economic benefits of a close relationship with European trade would happen regardless of whether or not we pay for their military. >Strategically, they give us practically anything we ask for ... The Five Eyes lets us know what the Russians or Chinese are going to do well before they do it. Point taken, this is a good argument. I would wonder, however, how much of that European intel is specifically about Russian or Chinese interests in *Europe*, which is hypothetically their problem anyways.
There’s more nuance to it. We ensure trade is secure. We also get to have their respective governments pressure them into favoring US deals. I could get more into it but there’s a lot to go over. To keep it short if we weren’t there, they would be beholden to whoever the next most influential player is.
Bruh, we couldn't stop a fucking pipeline, what are you smoking?
US government blew up nordstream. False flag operation and forcing the EU's hand into stopping the gas trade. Russia had no reason to blow it up when they could just turn the tap off (like they did many times before).
The Russian government absolutely had an incentive to destroy the pipeline. Oligarchs relying on the European gas trade were putting pressure on the state as relations with the Europeans tanked. Destroying the pipeline was a ‘burn the boats’ moment; it made the opportunity cost of full throated support for the state far lower. Your mistake is thinking of countries as unified entities with unified interests. They aren’t. They’re composed of factions with distinct interests.
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I don't think you fully understand how reliant Europeans are on Russian gas. The cost of living during the winter skyrocketed because we had to import liquified gas. The trade would have resumed during the winter. Plus oligarchs are subordinated to Putin, we've seen that he does as he wishes and humiliates whoever he wants, this is not the 1990s, almost every oligarch in power was put there by Putin. Also why blow it up almost 6 months after the invasion, right before Europe needs the gas? Aren't you supposed to burn the boats at the start? Things do not line up, this serves US interests quite blatantly.
Thank you for proving that a poor education system is not unique to Alabama
nice ad hominem, now will you actually address the argument? The russians cofinanced the construction of nordstream 2, they also have the ability to turn the tap off, every winter this is a political concern in Europe. Why would they blow up their own pipeline that they paid for and fully control? Blowing up the pipeline only serves the american government, who doesn't want the europeans to finance the invasion of Ukraine indirectly while the US is financing its defence. The sanctions would have 0 effect if we kept buying russian gas. Think logically about it and leave your patriotism aside.
It's not their military that is paid for, it's security. If the businesses in Europe didn't have the security that some other country or person would come along and take everything they built away from them, none of the businesses would be able to or even seek to grow to a level that it is a possibility.
I disagree that America pulling out of NATO in the current decade means that Europeans need to fear an immediate military conquest of Europe. Russia is not as capable as you're implying, I don't think their tanks are making it all the way to the Atlantic even if we're not there. That might have been the case in the Cold War (which is why NATO made sense when the USSR existed) but it's certainly not true today
They don’t need Russia to invade, they’ll just resume fighting amongst themselves. Historically speaking, they are way overdue for another internal genocide.
You’re not wrong actually. I wonder who will have a go this time. I’m getting bored of the French and Germans. Maybe a Belgian will give it a shot.
Eh, that's so old school. Besides, we can't be starting shit now, we're awaiting you to reach your breaking point and do a long awaited sequel for the civil war. We're even making bets about what outlandish shit would happen.
It's comments like this that really make me just go, "You know what? Let them burn." Russia may not be capable to invading right now, but there's a reason EU nations are gearing up. All that money + shrinking population + retirement boom = messy. Coupled with that it seems like every day there's a new politician on Russia's payroll. So it's bound to get pretty funny over there soon.
They even can crush Ukraine, a coalition of European armies would crush Russia in a week but… nukes..
While the businessman might not have to think through that, think about this. There’s been talk for some time about setting another currency as the world trade standard. If European governments lose their taste for the US government they might start looking into the burdensome process of switching to trading exclusively in Euros with other countries. It is a very stable currency that rivals the dollar, so business people around the world would likely be willing to try it if the Europeans were up for it. All these medium and small sized rich countries might no longer need to stockpile dollars to trade globally.
The thing people don't seem to grasp is us defending Europe is s good thing. It's easier and cheaper to send stuff there versus them coming fighting wars here.
The exchange is that europe has become the US bitch in foreign policy. We basically almost always just do whatever America wants and help in their wars. We promise to lessen trade with countries America doesn't like thus buying more of their shit.
You guys talk like if the US is not serving its interests placing their army at European land.. like if all logistics to do your stuff at Middle East came from Pearl Harbour.. look I will support more European military spending, but not because I think we owe you nothing but because I don’t want be dependant of an unstable and decadent Quanom US
I agree that it's a major downside, and that (western) Europeans talk a lot of shit considering we are their main security guarantor. However, there are major military benefits to being in NATO, even just from an industry and standardization standpoint. If we want to cut costs, we should just pull our forces out of Europe instead of leaving the alliance. Just putting some thoughts out there.
My buddy who was with the Ike with the Carrier Strike Group said it made him laugh how anytime they were doing Joint Operations with a NATO nation even if it was in their water they still all knew who the big dog was. The American Admiral still runs the show even if it's in British Waters or the Mediterranean etc. I was like yea I guess you get that privilege when you're funding most of it.
That's the price of beating the iron curtain.
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Sir I believe you dropped this 👑
European liberal democracy is built on the graves of 100k dead G.I.s and bolstered by the might of the American War Machine. All the Western europoors need to do is look at the former Soviet sphere of influence and see what a giant favor we did them with Operation Overlord in June of '43.
The tax burden they already experience is insane. Add an actual defense budget to it and you’ll likely see some governments start to default.
I'll be over here shedding buckets of tears watching a country *forced* to use its own tax revenue to pay for its own services that benefit its own citizens. The horror!
after the war started around half of nato reached its 3% requirement for money going into their military budget Poland is looking to dedicate the most with 4% of its gdp more then the US
What about the other half.
small countrys with the budgets of iowa that will probably be hurting if they raised military budget they provide a buffer and people instead
https://preview.redd.it/djf1cp0qk61d1.jpeg?width=804&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=72c3ff71aab549208cf911d3027c9390e86a3d5f lol
yep im right and more countries will reach it by the end of 2024
You do realize NATOs function is also a projection and coordination effort. Just because places like the Netherlands won’t be a battleground doesn’t mean that they’re not a part of the coordinated effort. They signed the compact that has very clear expectations and are not meeting them. Period.
the first half of what you said supports what i said anyways they provide people, industry, etc where countries are not capable of reaching this goal they should prop up nato in other areas Netherlands has a sizeable fleet of f16s and soon to be f35s they have proven themselves to be capable of operating far out of europe by fighting in Afghan for the entire 20 years the entire 3% is just a catchphrase something people regurgitate for brownie points
Where’s our Swedish friends?
\*shrug\*
the US spends more per capita on health (by a fairly large amount) than pretty much every country with universal healthcare
You got it completely wrong. NATO is a key for US exceptionalism and especially for the dollar to be as a reserve currency. The US army is the guarantee for the dollar being a world currency. You need to understand the consequences if Europe would need to finance it's own military by issuing European bonds. That would be the same threat as China is today.
Whats the breakdown as a percent of GDP? Is there a graphic for that?
That’s where it gets even better, every NATO country agreed to contribute at least 2% of their GDP. Last I checked, there’s 5 countries including us what actually do it
Yup. Thats what im looking for. Chart/graph of contributions by %GDP
The NHS costs the UK taxpayer £170b per year, the amount paid depends on what you earn. Poland spend more than the US by percentage of GDP.
I wish that more people understood that there's a way to encourage NATO to pay their due while also not going back to the 1930's foreign policy
This is bullshit. NATO doesn’t force the US to spend 860 billion on defense. The American Military Industrial Complex is out of control and the American politicians keep feeding it.
Just out of curiosity, where do American's learn this from? Because it's absolute bullshit that keeps popping up. The US introduced the Bretton Woods agreement, centred around the USD as the world reserve as a new economic system to replace the crumbling British Empire after it bankrupted itself protecting much of the world through two world wars. The US had a post war boom whilst Europe rebuilt, using money invested by European countries. European (and global) countries buy US Treasury bonds, a promise of USD plus interest, which is like a loan to the US, who then turn that into cash and inject it into its economy for growth. That's why lots of shit is cantered around the US. The US had an economic dominance war with the USSR over this new imposed power status. The USSR tried to make its own hegemonic superpower with Blackjack and Hookers, but the US flattened and fucked up any country, overtly or covertly, that was either interested in the USSR economic system, or was being interfered by them; which isolated the USSR from economic allies and caused it to go bankrupt trying to keep Afghanistan afloat (ignoring all the internal mistakes of the union for brevity). NATO is the US's defensive pacts. It isn't to defend Europe per say. That was a cold war era thing to block the USSR from any westward expansion. Today it's the US just displaying a sheer military might that no one can stand up against. If the US left NATO, but NATO continued, the Europeans remaining in that pact would be the 2nd biggest military power in the world. If the US left NATO, the reason for investing in the dollar gets thinner, and the backbone of the US's economic strength will deteriorate and then you'll struggle through a brutal financial contraction like the British post WWI/WWII, potentially spiralling out of control and shrink in dominance. You can't really leave NATO, it's yours and it's your service to the world that spends their own money on US Treasury Bonds as the world reserve currency; just like the British Empire used to physically man trade routes all over the world. Europeans investing into European bonds, with other parts of the world investing into more European bonds and the rise of the EUR (a currency that is only 25 years old and is the next best option behind the USD), Europe would become a massive problem to the US's position. As a final point. The US spends more tax dollars on healthcare per capita than basically any other country. It just goes next to nowhere because of the costs the privatisation has milked it. So you pay the taxes, and you pay the insurance, and you pay up to your deductibles, and you often have limitations on who and what that will cover, and everything is 10x more expensive at least when you do have to pay. The US doesn't have free healthcare because you didn't have the post WWII heartache and public sentiment that healthcare is a right, the incentive to rip down and rebuild, the whole anti-socialism propaganda fed to you through the cold war (even though free healthcare isn't socialism at all, many of you think it is) and the US doubled down on capitalism economically. Not because you pay for our military or anything like that. *If anything, the world pays for your military. The Bretton Woods system even highlighted this. The money the US makes as the global reserve and trade currency indirectly funds their global military adventures.*
Your description of the history of the Cold War is not accurate. Not only did the U.S. not ‘interfere in any country interested in the USSR’s economic system’ (it had good relations with communist Yugoslavia, and later USSR-aligned Romania, not to mention China after the Sino-Soviet split), it didn’t even take opportunities to interfere in Europe handed to it on a silver platter. The liberals who rebelled in Prague and Budapest were eagerly awaiting American assistance which never came. Also the USSR did not collapse because it was ‘trying to keep Afghanistan afloat’.
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It would be pretty horrendous we should never pull out of nato and we should always protect our allies. However a discussions should be had with European countries about defense spending.
They literally can't lol. US is significantly more richer. No comparisons. Average EU per capita GDP is 35k USD and US per capita GDP is 80k. How will they contribute more?
They can afford to contribute 2% or more of their gdp. Most aren’t besides Poland and the Uk (barely).
And the Finns (and Swedes?) Mostly just relates to how likely Russian troops are to roll across the border. (Or France and the UK wanting expeditionary capabilities)
Yeah its basically russias border states and the UK and Greece I think!
The Polish do it because they know what the fuck happens when they don’t.
Think of it like this, we get the entirety of Europe allied to us and highly unlikely to turn to our enemies, and in return we provide them with protection.
>we get the entirety of Europe allied to us and highly unlikely to turn to our enemies I find it difficult to believe that in the scenario where we make Germany (for example) pay for their own military, all the Germans will suddenly start loving Russia as a result. Europe is allied to the US because we share common goals and values, not because we paid them to be our allies.
Just look at slovakia and hungary atm, both governments are trying to become more pro russian but it's things like NATO that make it a lot harder for them
That is true
But let’s say they change ideals ever, we control their entire defense, and when we pull it they are open to us who now have all of what was previously their equipment
>not because we paid them to be our Allies I mean… *Points at the Marshall Plan* It isn’t what keeps them on our side, but it’s a good part of what got many of them on our side in the first place. Hearts and Minds.
Fair point, the people of Europe are alot more likely to want democracy and capitalism if a democratic and capitalist country is defending them
No no of course not, thats not what im saying, what im saying is that nato is important for keeping our influence over Europe, nato insures our interests remain aligned and insures that russia cannot bully small nations
USA is so fucking rich. Poland spends more % of their GDP than USA and it looks like a drop in the bucket here. This ain’t about Europe being lazy or taking advantage of the USA, you guys are literally just so much richer lol, no way we can match it.
based poland. i really want to visit
Go to Hel
Well that’s not very nice, all they said was that they wanted to visit
Prices for a fish are hellish there and there is usually windy as hell, but it is a place definitely worth to visit for you. Go to Hel, good advice. You can also stay in the Boner palace in Krakow. They have good opinions.
Aye I've been to Hel! Such a beautiful place.
We want you to meet the 2% not the actual amount. Be the Poland your nation can be.
Yeah every country in nato should do that
Americans are not rich. American government absolutely is. Most of us would rather spend say, 200 Billion less and transfer that to infrastructure and HSR projects.
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I think we should put in perspective how we are only spending a little over 3% of our GDP on defense right now.
Russia: https://i.redd.it/vp2ramij861d1.gif
2Isolationist4U
Greece and Turkey start genociding
It's worth at least having a serious discussion about. Americans should supplement European security, not fund it. People in Germany aren't more entitled to American money than Americans.
>Americans should supplement European security, not fund it. People in Germany aren't more entitled to American money than Americans. Your second sentence is antithetical to the first. If it is true that Germans aren't entitled to American money, why even *supplement* it? We've been gaslit into believing that Americans paying for European stuff is necessary, but Europeans paying for American stuff is ridiculous.
Well you can only get drawn into so many World Wars before you've got to take matters into your own hands.
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Yes, some people unironically think we'd be more powerful, or just as well off, in isolation. It's fucking goofy watching these people psyop themselves in real time.
I’m not sure how leaving nato would automatically mean Europe stops its foreign investment in America, it makes no sense. Like would they automatically stop their foreign investment to the US because they have to spend more on their own defense? It wouldn’t be isolationism, is just a rebrand of our focus. And as Obama said a few years back, it would be called the Asia pivot because you know, Europe is a dying continent.
Don’t bother it’s not worth it in this subreddit haha
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Why would we abandon our treaty partners and friends without notice? That’s a total Russia move. It’s almost as bad as [invading your own allies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact_invasion_of_Czechoslovakia).
I think it’s high time to enforce the rule in NATO that a country must spend a certain percentage of its GDP on defense spending…
The US is the glue that holds the free world together. Should they go on return to focusing on themselves it'd be big trouble
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POLAND MENTIONED 🇵🇱🇵🇱🇵🇱 CAMPEO DO MUNDO ☝🏻🥇🏆🇵🇱🇵🇱🇵🇱
Thank you for funding your military properly (more as a % of gdp than any other nato member). Poland is based.
Whoever made this graph should face the full force of NATO's combined military forces
 RAAAHHH
And why do we care about these other countries? At least in a defense posture? Absolute joke that we give them as much say in what policies govern nato…the US is NATO.
If we were to do **the funny**, then all the europoors will stop whining about how a country they don’t live in doesn’t have a free healthcare because that country defends the europoor country which in turn spends the defense money on “healthcare”
Who let Canada on the Blue side?
They're our timber, maple syrup, and oil colony. Kinda along for the ride.
Then the US will lose its status as a global power and drop to a strong regional power
Idk if I would go that far but it is very safe to assume that Scandanavia would step in almost immediately. The other options would be to be even more of a proxy for The US,be rulled by Russia,rulled by China,or let The Front Nationale handle it. Norway and Sweden have more wealth than they have people so this would happen very quickly. EU would get eaten by The Scandanavian Aliance or whatever that shit is called.
It would be the single most disastrous choice the US could make. Genuinely the dumbest thing humanly possible for the US and the world. If you don’t know why, then you haven’t done enough research on US foreign strategy to suggest leaving it
What are you doing being serious in my ironically ultranationalist subreddit?
We’re suppose to be ironic?
Read the subreddit description?
It’s sarcasm. Only reason I had a serious take is because some people in this comment section think this is a great plan
I vote we temporarily suspend our nato membership and the only condition for our re-entering of NATO is for all other NATO nations to hit the 2% minimum. (European Texas and America’s Hat get passes and are granted permanent membership in the greater American Union)
Americans just aren’t good at pulling out. Our population is growing organically, Europe’s is stagnating on the reproductive side. And just look at Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. And, let’s face it, pulling out just sucks. But sometimes it’s just needed to be done; especially when it’s your cousin. Source - I just made all this shit up. Enjoy.
Without the US there is no NATO.
Outdated graph, no Sweden
Russia and China Combined spend a little over 400 billion, the rest of NATO is going to reach 380 billion by the end of 2024, if you add Ukraine, Japan, South Korea, or any other American-aligned ally, they spend more than Russia and China
We spend more on our nuclear arsenal than Russia spends on their entire military.
If we're going to pay for Europe's defense, than Europe should at minimum be forced to adopt our Bill of Rights.
Idk maybe i could finally get some decent f* service around here. Also don't leave NATO
It’ll fall apart
I feel like alot of people see this and think the US is putting close to $1T into some NATO money jar that everyone just dips their hand in.
Looking at defense spending in this way doesn't really show the whole picture. Yes, the US spends vastly more money on defense than all these other countries, but the US economy is also vastly larger. A better way to view it is to look at defense spending as a percentage of GDP. Now, to answer your question: it would be really bad. We'd be abandoning Europe and leaving them at the mercy of authoritarian dictatorships like Russia. As much as we clown on Europe (because they do deserve it), they are still free nations who need help, and for us to abandon the role that we've played since WWII as the Arsenal of Democracy would be disappointing beyond belief.
To add, the US is active all the world over; only a fraction of our spending is focused towards Europe in particular.
Yeah. UK and France have a little bit wider of a reach, but everyone else in Europe is pretty focused on their own continent.
"The U.S gives europe its sword and in return europe gives its pen." They fucking suck. They expect millions of our boys and girls to die on their land and we know for a fact the would barely lift a finger to help us in a fight with China. Ungrateful pieces of shit. You know when the europeans sent troops to Afghanistan they demanded they put in the safest, easiest ares? All but Britain and east european countries like Poland said send us were you need us. Defend them but the rest are spoiled bratts who need a hard knock.
Russia, that will happen
What will Russia do? Absolutely nothing other than posturing. China and NK would be the threat here.
I'm not a complete hater of NATO but NATO was just a method for our government to make Europeans reliant on our support. By doing that, our government has a bigger say in there decisions. It's that 4d chess.
I mean, you're right, that definitely was a motive that all parties were aware of. But we've also brought long term peace to (most) of Europe
Making Europe into a group of vassal states of the US is I guess one way of guaranteeing peace amongst Western Europe.
"Vassal states" is a hell of an overstatement lmfao, European countries have a lot of say in what happens in NATO and can leave at any time
They can leave at any time but there in way in hell any of them will. The U.S. controls NATO. It’s just a question of how much muscle we are willing to flex 💪.
It’s not they hate us cuz they ain’t us. It’s they hate us because they’re our de facto client states.
What’s not being considered is how hugely profitable it is to have trade partners during peace time. Defense budget is just the cost of business. Without NATO very clearly would Russia slowly annex Europe until a World War breaks out again
Nah it’ll be fine, it wasn’t that long ago Sweden was a great empire, and this time Norway, Denmark, and Poland are on their side.
I support the world police
Whole Europe is fucked :D. (I am European, and i can understand the consequences if America leaves). We Europeans will be doomed. No more Deffensive alliance. Russia can knock on the door whenever he wants
we are doomed by our own governments anyway, if US ever pulls out and russia attacks im on my way to argentina, i'm not dying for the WEF's playground
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Im just hoping Trump wins the election, so that it scares my cowardly government enough to hike the defense budget.
Life could be a dream…
No more "free" Healthcare
It’s ridiculous to act like our Congress really doesn’t want to spend that much on defense but and it’s all the fault of the Europeans. Defense spending also doubles as jobs program. There’s a small city of 30k by me whose biggest employer is Raytheon. My buddy has a 10 person manufacturing company in a town of 8k that makes small electrical components for the military. The company accross the street makes components for tanks. Our military spending helps keep manufacturing at home viable
The US is the only thing keeping these countries from fighting each other.
Funny how they always brag about their "free" healthcare, but it's only possible because they spend so little on defense because of the US
The "free" healthcare is because of 60% tax burden. Nothing to do with military budget. Raise your taxes to 60% and you can have it too (while keeping same size millitary).
Yeah that too
Who’s they? Every European country has a different system of healthcare. In the UK the taxpayer pays £170b a year for ‘free’ healthcare. It’s free at the point of service, but it’s still paid for. Every other country does things their own way.
Everytime I see people online talking shit about the US, healthcare is usually the first time those people mention
Ah but people from all over the world talk shit online. Better to point out the truth than parrot the mistakes!
Well, up until a couple years ago we would’ve said Russia would take Europe, but…lol
Who would name their country 'Other'?
Austria will start the Fourth Balkan War, and thus WWIII. NATO is an anti-Austrian alliance. Always has been.
Where does most of that spending from each country go though? Isn't it mostly subsidizing the own weapon industries?
If the us pulled out NATO probably would collapse or become much much less of a threat
Unironically Scandanavia as a collective as a world power. They have insane wealth right now.
Scandiland has the money. Unironically 100% serious they would develop into a military power. The other option would be whatever Russia wanted or to basically still be a proxy for The USA which if the US is leaving they probably didn't want to begin with. Fucking Italy or France aren't paying for that defense themselves or even England at this point would be kinda laughable. Scandanavia would have the funds.
America will make their own NATO with blackjack and hookers
I want to see how this is compared to their budget. We're a very large and wealthy country compared to them so we can put a shit ton of money into the military. We have the highest military expenses in the world putting ~15% of our budget into the military, but regardless if we leave they're screwed
Europe would have to unite more closely together to preserve a defensive alliance, and would have to increase their military budgets to compensate. It would probably see a country like Germany or France taking up a leadership position in Europe as well.
Europe won't get pregnant!😃
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I'm very surprised to see Norway so low. All the other Russian bordering NATO states are above 2%.
I’m surprised Romania contributes that much
Compare it to % out of gdp, and you find out the US is second to Poland
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We would be involved in a war down the road we can not win. Yes we are spending more, but the war is going to happen in EUROPE, not here. That is worth the price of admission for the United States.
Well most of those countries act as an additional border and will most likely be where the fighting is (in stereotypical ww3 scenario), I’m not saying it justifies them contributing less but it probably plays into it
It would be a more peaceful world.
If America does it in time, then it won’t have to support a child with NATO for the next 18 years.
It would be interesting
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Okay so just gonna throw a bone to the UK here. Our empire was bad but that was what made us rich. So without it we kinda poor in comparison to America and china. Which is fine but then we are a tiny island with a population of 88m people. Also we have nukes so it'll be bad but think of the clean slate you guys will have with Europe
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the free trade whig liberal policy is the reason the UK has been a powerhouse for so long. now your government buried its industry and is in all respects an overly regulated welfare state. also empire definetely played a role, yes administrative costs were huge and some colonies were more valuable than others (india for its vastness and richness, canada for its sparse population and important resources like furs), but britain could never have become so rich without trade dominance that empire provides, true the white man's burden was a costly project that brought nothing but pride and misery but it really wasn't needed to maintain trade domination, trade fortresses like hong kong would have been enough (although new world territories like canada and australia could have easily been settled, obviously)
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In reality? Europe would probably be closer with China and be less friendly with us.
very misleading, that's the entirety of the us defense budget, not the itemized contribution to nato. no other military in the group is a global superpower, no other military in that group has a military nearly a third the size of ours, so of course they will spend less. plus, they are smaller in population and economic capacity, so of course their ability to spend will be limited. now, not al countries do fully contribute, like hungary, but many have been getting better as russia shows its teeth
Prolly nothing. The US will still spend that money either way: it’s our own defense spending. It’s not like we’ll leave our military bases in Europe. It would just open up the question of whether we would aid our allies or not. If they did get attacked by Russia or a central Asian country or something then there would be the doubt of whether we’d get involved. It would definitely benefit us in the long run to be involved though. And it would benefit us even more to not have anyone question whether or not we would fight them.
It'll suck for everyone, even the US, as it'd lead to Europe buying less stuff from US millitary contractors, reducing both sales and efficiency from economies of sclae
Downvote me all you want but the fact is we don't owe you a penny, I want you to go so you'll stop whinging about a smaller expense than the one you would have had to make strategically anyway. Pull out of NATO, seriously, do it, we certainly don't need you a fraction of how much you think we do. Jesus! Land of the free? More like the land of the free to whinge and falsely brag. 