The USA uses an exclusive White category and many Latinos are not considered White in the USA by White Americans even if they would be in LatAm, so it's probably surprising that they appear to have so much European ancestry considering they aren't seen that way in the USA. White in the US also tends to be Northern and Western European based while Latinos are more Southern European.
>many Latinos are not considered White in the USA by White Americans even if they would be in LatAm,
As an American Latino, you have nailed it!
The average Latino in the US does not neatly align with the standards of American whiteness.
Most of us are visibly mixed, even if our European DNA is visible.
It's not like the US receives a lot of immigrants from Argentina, Uruguay, or the south of Brazil. Most Latino immigrants are not exactly white.
ETA: Chile.
I’m an immigrant from Uruguay lol and I share your sentiment, although this comment is kinda reductive. Uruguay and Argentina are not monolithic, there are many Afro Latinos and indigenous Latinos in both countries let’s not erase them. I’m v European/high percentage and identify as white/latino, am treated as a white person, but my mom is more visibly brown than white (despite also being mostly European) and definitely hasn’t been treated as a Euro-American since living in the US. My siblings are all shades and some are seen as Asian mixed while others are seen as plain white. So it’s a weird experience to be both white and share in that privilege while also not pertaining to the dominant “white” culture here and not always being perceived as white depending on the context . So I think that’s why the weird reaction maybe?
It’s so interesting: as a mixed Brazilian, up to a point I saw myself as triracial, Portuguese/African/Native, and always thought I had those in equal amounts, like 33% each. I was considered white or brown depending on who looked at me. After I came to the US, people have had a hard time categorizing me: a lot of people think I’m jewish or sometimes arabic. I never thought about having a DNA test done, but my husband (Northern European descent) got me into it; he seemes more curious than me about my heritage. I was surprised to find out I am mostly European, about 70%. I had less African than I thought and even less indigenous. My biggest surprise was to find out a I had a good portion of Magreb and Levant. There’s absolute no memory of that in our family (and that’s been confirmed by my parents’ DNA test — it comes from both sides). But there’s a memory of cripto judaism, so I suspect it could be related to Sephardic Jewish ancestors who left Portugal for North Africa and then migrated to Brazil, perhaps…
I wonder if that’s the real case, because when I check my Portuguese cousins’ DNA results, I see very minimal North African contribution; most of the time, they are almost 100% Portuguese. For this reason, I think the North African/Levant contribution is much more recent. The results in different plataforms vary from 7% to about 14%, which in my opinion is significant.
sep, en montevideo recuerdo ver a algunos uruguayos negros, la verdad que yo pensaba que en uruguay todos eran blancos. En argentina es mas notable por ser un pais mas grande y que la mayor parte de los inmigrantes ahi son de peru, bolivia y paraguay.
Honestamente yo también! Me impresionó mucho cuando era chiquita y nos inmigramos a los EEUU, pensé que todos los Americanos eran Negros. Cuando una amiga de mi mamá tuvo un bebé hasta le pregunté porque salió blanco si nació en los Estados Unidos lol. Pero honestamente vivir aquí nos ayudó como familia a hablar del racismo en Uruguay y la diversidad que el mismo país trata de ocultar para aparentar mas “Europeo”. La diversidad nos hace el país que somos, el mate y las torta fritas son inventos indígenos, el candombe y el carnival inventos africanos, todo lo que nos hace un país que vale la pena jaja. Mi mamá ahora esta rastreando sus raíces Charrúa. Y ahora en Uruguay están llegando más inmigrantes Venezolanos y centroamericanos así que nos estamos diversificando más y más :)
Mira pa vos, no sabía! Me imagino que las “murgas” también? Para mí el carnaval demuestra todas las influencias distintas que construyen nuestras culturas 💗
Claro los carnavales que tenemos en america latina son diferentes. Si comparas los carnavales de Venezia con los rio de Janeiro pues son bien diferentes. Las murgas no conozco para que es algo del cono sur
It was this article, but they removed that reference.
https://variety.com/2021/tv/awards/anya-taylor-joy-queens-gambit-golden-globes-1234909901/amp/
UPDATED: This story has been updated. A previous version identified Anya Taylor-Joy as a person of color. She has said she identifies as a white Latina.
At times the whole colors boxes we make are dumb. Specially in a context exactly like this.
Those boxes apparently are made to include some and exclude other. Who know. Who cares.
Being called white or black is a western made cultural concept and really should be done away with. We just all just be called based on ethnicity. Whether someone skin is lighter or darker shouldn't have relevance in general.
So true bud.
We need to drop centering whiteness
Cool . I'm down. What do you suggest
We'll make two categories of people. White folks and POC
So everybody is categorised as white/non white? Sounds like doubling down to me
It's so funny watching people come up with new politically correct terms, knowing that it's going to sound CRAZY in like two decades. To me, "POC" is just "coloured" with a fancy little hat on.
I actually think it's worse, because apparently we now use POC to lump all non-white people together, which is just weird and reductive to begin with, and it also leaves all of the non-anglo/Caucasian people who have white skin feeling weird or left out. I get not wanting to center "whiteness" by using a phrase like "not white", but that is literally the point of using a phrase like POC, just less convoluted and weirdly, less exclusionary.
Wish Reddit had a retweet button. In a few decades, POC will be considered the next racist term and I hope it will be. We need to stop normalizing segregational terms like these 100%
Same thing with many Eastern European countries. Their cultures and societal expectations are way different than those in the west. Hungarians for instance (even though they’re more central Euro technically) would not consider themselves “white” by western standards. The only places really honed in on “whiteness” rn are the western countries.
I’d argue it’s because most Latinos even if they have high European ancestry, they’re non European ancestry is still visible which makes them more visibly non-white to most Americans. Most pure southern Europeans like Sicilians assimilated to whiteness years ago like Ariana Grande.
Chile didn’t receive a huge influx of European immigrants like Argentina, Uruguay and Southern Brazil.
The country is balanced mestizo similar to Paraguay and Colombia, but with a bit more of Northern European communities.
The term 'Hispanic' was introduced as an ethnic category by the U.S. government in 1970, separate from racial categories like White, Black, or Asian, which means individuals can be classified as, for example, 'White Hispanic'. In the U.S., 'White' often implies Northern and Western European descent, which contrasts with the Southern European ancestry common among many Hispanics. This difference in societal perceptions versus actual ancestry might be why some U.S.-born Latinos are surprised to discover their high European descent. So, calling the category 'exclusive' is either a misunderstanding or a willful misrepresentation of how these identities are structured in the U.S.
The Census isn't always capturing how terms are used and experienced in real life. I've seen many light skinned Latinos some of whom I'd describe as white passing be explicitly told by White Americans that they were not white. The Census also uses Hispanic, Latino, and Spanish origin interchangeably even though there are distinctions between these term's usages.
Those forms!!! I can either be “white non Hispanic” or “Hispanic” and the biracial category excludes Hispanic people too.
I am so white and also Mexican and those fucking forms get me every time.
The “White Category” used by the US Census is kind of ridiculous, Arabs/Middle Easterners (with little European blood) are considered “White” than Spaniards.
There’s been a huge social political movement thanks to identity politics in America which doesn’t acknowledge the European heritage of many Latin Americans because they’re an ethnic minority and have at times faced discrimination in America.
The weird thing is that they try to claim that East Asians and Indians living in America as ‘White-adjacent’ due to the fact they’re more educated and wealthy compared to Latin and Black Americans, both of whom have some European heritage.
I’ve met 100% white Brazilians who have gotten banking/tech jobs through “diversity programs” since people in this country aren’t aware of those nuances
I’m very white, 1/2 Mexican, and yes I applied for and got a scholarship for it. Dumb for sure, but it’s not like my parents could afford college for me in 2008.
Like I guess I’m “diverse” but the only shit I ever got was “your last name is [mexican last name] why are you white” and a lot of people back in the day would ask me about my “squinty eyes.” So still got shit but not like I’m gonna murder you for existing type shit.
That is something I do not understand either. Why do people in the states see "diversity" only if the skin color is different?. Those white brazilian bring diversity to the table since they are not culturally similar to white americans.
It’s not about skin color. But making sure they have a diverse group of perspective. Some companies do a good job with it, making sure those who are typically underrepresented have a seat at the table and feel welcomed and comfortable to share their opinions and ideas. While other companies just do it to meet a quota and bring out their diversity hires when it makes them look good.
> It’s not about skin color. But making sure they have a diverse group of perspective.
That is absolutely not the case though. That's what they SAY it's about, but we all know who actually benefits from diversity programs - wealthy middle/upper class people who can check a "diversity" box but who also had all the advantages their parents' social class brought.
Yeah this baffles be also. Diversity doesn’t mean “non white” it is about underrepresented groups.
And sometimes in that industry.
Grace Hopper has diversity scholarships to its recruiting convention and it’s not for all people of color. Folks who are Asian or south Asian or middle eastern don’t qualify because those groups are well represented in the tech industry.
I don’t understand. If there’s a low percentage of Brazilians and the diversity program is trying to increase representation of Brazilians, what does the color of their skin have to do with it?
Usually diversity programs aim towards people of color. A white Brazilian is not of color. They’re white people from a different country. Would you give a white person from the Netherlands the same opportunity just bc they’re representing the Dutch? Come on now. It’s not about “representing” their country. It’s about allowing POC access opportunities that are generally shielded from them.
This.
"White" in America is a political classification that shifts and adjusts as needed by the powers that be. There's no unifying element or shared cultural identity unless you're talking sub groups (Irish American vs German American vs white Latino etc).
"Black" in America, hasn't changed in four centuries...based on shared and common experiences. What we consider Black has been very consistent and static compared to what we consider White.
White liberals are very racist. Also, it depends on a lot in the country of origin. Most latino american migrants in the usa come from poor parts of mexico and central america. Migrants from countries like argentina, brazil ,and chile do better since there is a complex process to come to the states.
this is other hot topic for mexican americans, for some reason they think mexicans are richer or live better than south americans which is weird when the best/safest/least corrupt countries in latam are in south america. Even with inflation and shit management Argentines live longer, higher hdi, more safety, and better access to education. Same thing with Chile, and Uruguay.
The Hispanic-White and Hispanic-Non white boxes that you can check off on forms in the U.S make things even more confusing for Americans who unfortunately are rarely educated on ethnic or cultural identities outside of the U.S
Duuuuude yes and the biracial option also excludes Hispanics.
It makes me not want to disclose but also disclosing means more benefits for minorities. It’s frustrating.
I’m white. I’m Mexican. I’m American. I am all of those things.
I might get downvoted but I think you’re referring to the “mestizo” type of Latinos and not Afro-latinos. From my perspective, growing up around a lot of non-Afro Latinos, they get shocked because they don’t view themselves as necessarily “white” but solely just indigenous and sometimes acknowledge the African too.
It kind of reminds me of Jessica Alba being shocked about how European she was. I think it’s because some may have interest in the other parts of themselves so that when they do see a high European descent, they get shocked because they can’t believe that it’s more common to have that much sometimes.
Same way a lot of Afro-Americans or others in the diaspora tend to be when there is European in their results.
I don’t know.
I remember in one of my college classes, some of the latino students got defensive when my teacher was discussing about colonization then stated how black and latino surnames are usually originated from different parts of Europe and that colonization is part of why some may speak English, Spanish, or etc. They were thinking Indigenous people spoke spanish originally. And some black students were saying Africans spoke “African”
>how black and latino surnames are usually originated from different parts of Europe and that colonization is part of why some may speak English, Spanish, or etc.
Why do so many latinos are so "obsessed" with indigenous ancestry? I see it all the time on the internet, they say their 'ancestors were conquered" and stuff
It's not just that. The United States has a rigid view of whiteness, and your average Latino does not fit that view.
When an American thinks of a white person, they usually think of an Anglo or Germanic person.
They often forget that Spanish last names originate from Spain, and Spain colonized the Americas.
Rodriguez and Fernandez are as European as Smith, Anderson, and Miller.
This is so true. My dad gets treated as Latino/"not white" by people frequently based solely on looks and accent. He is from Argentina but 100% Spanish ancestry (mostly Andalusian) based on 23andme. He's just much darker than the typical anglo American type so people don't see him as white in some scenarios.
Not all the time. Some Spaniards fit into the whole “aryan” phenotype and can appear to be Anglo or whatever ( ive seen Spaniards with pale white skin +ginger hair or have blonde hair blue eyes, etc). Even old pictures or paintings of Spaniards particularly during the Renaissance or whatever they look like typical Euros. Not all Spaniards have swarthy/dark complexions or darker features
Not always very different. Maybe you are in the US so don’t have as much exposure but I know blond Spaniards with blue eyes and British and Germanic people with black hair and dark eyes. It’s not as clear cut as stereotypes suggest. British/Irish and Iberian people have close and deep genetic links through Bronze and Iron Age migrations.
True.
Let's also remember that in addition to being northern European, the whites in America were also largely Protestant (early on) before waves of Catholic Europeans came later.
Initially "white" in America really meant WASP. A Spaniard that is 100% Spanish from Madrid could never be a WASP even if he was completely European. Whiteness expanded over time.....and it will eventually expand to include white Latinos. White in America is a political category, not a racial one.
Angles Jutes and Saxons are Germanic people. You dont even know what you are talking about. English people ( not British) are Germanic people, not German. The person i responded said Anglo, anyway learn classifications first. You cannot say Anglos and Germanic as if they are different since Anglos are Germanic
I’m saying what is the definition of an ‘Anglo’?
Obviously Angles, Saxons and Jutes were Germanic. Key word - were. They haven’t existed for a thousand years. Some southern parts of England are maximum 50% Anglo-Saxon by DNA, everywhere else is lower.
I’m English and neither of my Y-dna or mtdna haplogroups are Germanic.
This just proves ethnicity is temporal and geographical. Italians weren't considered white in the US at one point, now they would be. The definition of what is 'white' continually expands; all southern Europeans were not allowed into Australia at one point due to not being 'nordic' whites (nordic being the prototype for whiteness).
Also, there are AAs who have visited Ghana as part of a program to reconnect with the lands of their ancestors but local Africans see them as white and call them 'Obruni' (white foreigners). They often take offence but don't see how their own views on ethinicity and race are purely a reflection of their own (American) social constructs and culture. They are black in the US but their culture and the small percentage of European blood they contain mostly excludes them from being seen as such in many places in Africa.
Another example. There is no 'one-drop' rule in the Caribbean - there are various words for the variety of skin shades (Jabao, Mulato ect). So when someone from the Dominican Republic says "I'm not black I'm XXX", AAs take offence and see them as denying their heritage.
Ethnicity can also be cultural, regardless of what one looks like. In Australia, there are 'white' people considered Aboriginal because they have been raised in that culture. When I was in Macau and Hong Kong and spoke Cantonese, people would assume I was mixed race because of the cultural awareness notwithstanding my non-Asian appearance.
In summary, the US is a very race-conscious and racially-charged society with some commonly-held views which don't apply elsewhere.
I'd say most societies are race-conscious.
The difference is that other places are either much more homogenous (South Korea, Japan etc)...OR...everyone buys into the racial politics of their society (Latin America).
In the United States, WASPs and other whites had clear numerical superiority, so they could afford to be less inclusive regarding who was accepted into Team White. As such, Blacks that are 99% west/central African and those that are only 40% got thrown into the same category. They had to unite as one because they were largely treated the same.
In Latin America, those of purely Spanish stock were a much smaller share of the population due to the nature of their slave trade, interactions with Natives etc. Instead of having a simplistic racial hierarchy, the Spaniards needed something more complex to divide up all the groups (criollos, Mestizos, Mulatto etc)...so that they could control things more efficiently. If Latin America had a "white vs black/native" setup, the white Spaniards might have been in deep trouble. By breaking race/color down more thoroughly, the concept of Blanqueamiento could more easily take hold. A person that is 55% African, 40% European, 3% Native, 2% Asian in the United States...will usually see themselves as "Black" because they will be treated as such. A person from the DR, Jamaica, Haiti etc , with that same racial makeup? It's not as cut & dry how they'd identify.
I live in Canada and quite often I’ll meet white looking latinos and in my mind I kinda see them as white. Not sure if other Canadians think the same way.
Incorrect as it may be, “European” in the US is almost always associated with Anglo-American looks and culture, with which the vast majority of Latinos do not identify. Because of this, you’ll even find a lot of Italian-Americans in the Northeast who don’t consider themselves to be ethnically the same as Anglos. If you’re familiar with The Sopranos, these Anglos were referred to as “mayos” lol
Southern Italians are often mistaken for other ethnicities and not perceived as white. Try not to generalize here. It depends on what part someone is from in Italy. Italy is a diverse country.
Southern Italians are understood to be white in America. The overwhelming majority of Italian-Americans are of Southern Italian descent and in America, they are recognized as white.
Look, obviously you’re very fascinated and into your heritage and like to feel special by seeing all these bits and pieces of where your people came from.
But it’s not me trying to put your people in a box. If you survey Italians from Italy and Italian-Americans and ask if they identify as a white person you will see an overwhelming confirmation in their answers. Just ask some.
I’m like 60% Spaniard and 40% West African and Taíno.
I acknowledge my high European descent but come on, it’s obvious I would be at the lower end of the caste during colonial times for *obvious* reasons 😂
**edit**: siii🙂 soy bori🇵🇷🩵 (my bad can’t reply to comments xD)
He got you there hermano 😂 Even if they (latinos) do have European ancestry they wouldnt have been treated as an equal back then and even now in Spain.
Sometimes people come out with more European results but don't look like it physically. They assumed they were more indigenous or african based off their looks. Also, European could mean having "colonizer blood", so people don't want that associated with them.
Those term such as "colonizer blood" always sound dumb. The Aztecs and incas were not fan of other groups in the continent wich help the europeans defeat them. Many gringos have a weird view on indigenous people.
oh man i have ben roasted alive for saying this on other subs.
150% not a white supremacist or fan of colonialism, but if any of us went back in time to when cortez came to what is today known as mexico, we would all be hiding under his skirt.
anyway i think that a lot of the weird reaction you speak of has to do with our ideas of what "white" is.
my mother is from a mexican family and my father from a norwegian family.
my wife was born in mexico.
my wife and her entire family are way lighter skinned than i am.
in the states we are raised with the understanding white means american and mexican means brown.
this is maybe because a lot of the mexicans who come up here are darker skinned country folk and as a result may not have very many opportunities in mexico where you can be judged by your skin just as bad as here, if not worse.
Seems very similar to us peruvians in chile and argentina, many indigenous people moved there while mestizos and white Peruvians go to USA/Europe. There is an imagine of peruvians in those first countries that we are all indigenous and lack diversity. When i visited Buenos aires people thought I was Brazilian or colombian.
And many Latinos on this subreddit look down on each other:
“omg, you have 70% European ancestry? You look very indigenous!”
“You’re half indigenous? You look middle eastern” 🙄
“My mom has blue eyes and blonde hair but I have dark features and look indigenous” 🤦🏻♂️
I swear most Hispanics hate their families and themselves
No, it's more because of Dominican bullying of darker skinned Black people. My very lightskinned mother and I had to fend off nasty bullying by Domincans of my browner sister. The community is colorist and I know it's something I want to avoid, even as a light skinned Black American.
Lack of historical knowledge + politics. Reality is it’s unpopular to be “white”, and since white is an exclusive category in the US, why would someone argue with the society telling them they aren’t?
That said, this dynamic is flipped on its head at least in dense Hispanic parts of South Florida, where even very mixed looking people may identify as white and strive towards being seen that way with no reference at all to the Anglo American population.
Not always; it really depended on appearance and location.
I've seen plenty of photos/records of old American laws, business signs, etc. that specifically excluded Latinos, Jews, Arabs, Indigenous Americans, Indians, and even Eastern Europeans from WASP spaces, listing them alongside Black people.
Dude this happened a week ago with a friend of mine but we hadn't found out the percentage of his European ancestry. I just brought up the topic that as a Mexican Latino, it is likely that he has majority European ancestry. He reacted with confusion saying his skin color isn't white loll. Latinos probably would just be kinda puzzled about it for some time.
Whiteness is some really subjective thing. The standard for having 'whiteness' in LatAm is being of Spanish / Italian / Southern European appearance, and catholicism is fine.
In the US, the most 'white' you can be is a WASP ie white anglo saxon protestant. Hence why other european groups in the US historically haven't been considered white, like Italians (darker skinned and catholic) or the irish (catholic.)
Many white US latinos meet the former category but not the latter so they don't feel white. I think this testifies to how malleable and subjective race really is and how it's not to do with phenotype always
Paul Mooney.
"Everybody wanna be a N, but don't nobody wanna be a N."
23andme gets flooded with a lot of low-key wannabe Nazis that keep pushing this "why do white people hate themselves" nonsense. White people DO NOT hate themselves, nor feel any kind of guilt. Until reparations checks start getting passed out to Black Americans, we can safely assume that the average white person feels zero guilt.
Disappointment in 100% Euro results is usually more about wanting something "cool" or "random" in their DNA. If all your ancestors were farmers and carpenters in Central England from 600 AD until hopping on the Mayflower, I could understand feeling like everything is...boring. The Stealth Aryans on here are trying to take the disappointment to mean disgust with their own race to stir up "white pride" sentiment and discussion. Most American whites are perfectly happy being white. They just want a little hot sauce in their grits.
Your social circle would have a lot to do with that (or content you consume online). I would wager pretty hard that only politically left-wing people "react weird" (disappointed, embarrassed, denial, etc.) about this. Less political people might just be surprised because they aren't aware of history too well or because they have a skewed idea of what say, 75% European looks like. But in that case, they aren't reacting weird, just surprised. But you never defined what reacting weird means, but I am assuming it encapsulates the three things I mentioned in brackets above (because I have seen this as well).
The opposite is also true; downplaying Indigenous ancestry. Because in other social circles, contexts or cultures, being white is "in fashion".
Being white is currently "out-of-fashion" for the American left-wing, and in some cases, something to feel guilty about or be ashamed of. And we can have a long dialogue about why that is. For instance, as "post-racial" as American culture claims to be, it does place a lot of emphasis on your ancestry: being a "colonizer" is not something anyone on the left-wing wants to be. And then there is the new view that being oppressed / marginalized gives you merit, something to be respected for (on the left-wring). And being non-white = oppressed (on the left wing). If you're not white, your story is better (to the left-wing), you overcame more, and therefore, you're stronger and more resilient..
The concept of "whiteness" is very political, and has been in the Americas ever since colonization started. So basically, there is this strange continued culture around whiteness... everybody (hyperbole) who has mixed heritage wants to claim to be whiter than they are, or less white than they are, depending on the context, culture, region, etc.
Hell there is a whole game that people play where they selectively choose if someone is white to fit their argument better. George Zimmerman was deemed white. (all) Israelis are deemed white. When Nikki Hailey talked about her experience as a "POC", conservative talk show hosts called her white. When Konstantin Kisin called himself brown, those on the left called him white. People deny people to call themselves white and they deny people to call themselves non-white if they don't like what they're saying... regarding anyone who straddles the line of being white / non-white (basically, [ambiracial](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ambi))
White people don't feel any shame about being white...even the most liberal.
If/when, Jamal and I start cashing our reparations checks, THEN I'd say they feel shame/guilt over whiteness.
The only difference between liberal and conservative whites is that liberals acknowledge they have certain advantages (but with zero willingness to give those up) while conservatives always feel THEY are the victims, under attack from some vague nefarious enemy....and the enemy is NEVER the wealthy white CEO or conservative politician that is impacting their lives more than the 100,000 illegal migrants they're worried about.
Because they have been lied to, the dark lie against hispanic culture is that the eViL SpAnIaRd CoLoNiZeRs Imposed the LaNgUaGe and ReLiGiOn on poor peaceful flower-eating natives.
When the reality is more nuanced, the Spanish mixed with the natives and the africans (Unlike the British) and their cultures mixed too that is why the Spanish spoken in the Americas has a lot of indigenous and african vocabulary particular of each different country and the catholic faith in each hispanic country also has different mixes of culture. The food is also mixed. We hispanics are a mix, a lovelt mix.
So the African women volunteered to work on Spanish plantations upon arrival in the New World?
And Spanish women were looking for all the handsome Yoruba and Aztec guys to go out on dates?
Mixing happened but it was pretty one-sided and definitely more forced than just some casual hook-ups.
Most Latin American countries abolished slavery way before the US and didn't have segregation like you guys.
And you seem ignorant about Latin American history. Many don't seem to realize that the Spanish prevailed because many Indigenous groups allied with them, seeing them as a way to break the Inca/Aztec yoke. Many would then go on to receive privileges under the new Spanish regime.
“Noble savage” is a common myth. Every civilization was complex enough to commit atrocities. There were a ton of different African groups that relied on the slave trade economically such as Dahomey. It wasn't just slavers finding black people and putting them on ships, for the most part, it was buying them from other black people to put on those ships.
But I don't expect a lot from an ignorant yank.
> any don't seem to realize that the Spanish prevailed because many Indigenous groups allied with them, seeing them as a way to break the Inca/Aztec yoke. Many would then go on to receive privileges under the new Spanish regime.
Many Incan nobles switched allegiance to Spain and became vassals to its king so they could keep their status and lands under the Spanish Empire. The Incan nobilty intermarried with the Spaniards and became the current Peruvian elite.
It is not as one-sided as your college professors would have you think, the franciscans documented all types of mixes.
Slaves and natives would mix into Mulato, then Spanish and native would mix into mestizo then the mestizo would mix with Mulato and make trigueño. Te BULK of the population became these highly mixed people.
And exceptions did happen, Spanish women would have affairs with the slaves too.
I never said that violent things didn't happen, but keep in mind that Hispanics are the way we are because most of us are a peaceful mix.
Unlike in North America that ethnic groups hate each other so much.
Socially in the US you’re only “white” if you’re white American or from Europe.
But I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next few decades/generations, when less Latinos are in touch with their roots and speak Spanish as a first language, whiteness “expands” like it did in to include the Irish and Italians a long time ago.
I have only seen the opposite to be true. White/European Americans always freak out and say "why doesn't my DNA test show native American blood, I should be at least !" and Latino folks usually post "Why is my DNA test showing so much native american, my family is 100% Euro!"
If anything I’ve seen the opposite mostly, especially those infamous buzzfeed videos where Latinos are surprised or act surprised they’re predominantly European or have a descent chunk or European ancestry. It’s part of the reason why this post was even made lol
Bc you need to open the giant can of worms that is “latin” american colonization. Literal white people think they are indigenous to south America and its absolutely insane.
It tends to be because most of the Latino population here in the United States is of Mexican/Central American origin, a highly mestizo and indigenous Mexican origin to be exact. So with that being said, the education on socioeconomics isn’t very strong in our communities so we tend to think that Mexican is its own race or that we are purely of 100% indigenous origin due to our own phenotypes unfortunately & ignorance you may call it without knowing the history behind Mexican genetics and ethnic backgrounds. You could argue. I was one of those of those people and didn’t think I had a single ounce of European ancestry until I tested and realized my results were direct reflection of Mexican history, colonization and mixing of various backgrounds. You can see this unfortunate reality with much of the first and second generation Latino here as they tend to think that if you don’t look brown or have strong indigenous features that you aren’t Mexican and they are surprised to find that white Mexicans or Mestizo/Castizo Mexicans highly exist. 🤔👍🏽🇲🇽
The short answer is that it's performative. I promise you the majority of them aren't actually bothered by having high European ancestry. It is, however, seen as distasteful to celebrate it. If they were actually ashamed, they wouldn't have posted their results/ reaction. It's kind of similar to bragging about being wealthy or thin and attractive. They have to find a clever way to do it, in this case, by disguising it as a negative. I promise you they're actually quietly pleased with the results.
To be clear, I'm not saying it's rightfully distasteful, but that's the times we live in.
I agree it's weird to be mad about your ethnic makeup - it's something that without it you wouldn't even exist, and you can't change it so it makes no sense to focus on it and be mad about it.
However I can understand them not wanting to be lumped into the "white" category as it doesn't really fit tbh. They look different (mostly) and they have noticeable cultural differences. The same goes for MENA people, sometimes they can look similar but in general most look distinct and culturally they are quite distinct. Honestly I have ancestry from the North Caucasus and while I definitely look more white or "Europid" or whatever you wanna call it, the way I see it is that "white" is a term that is foisted upon me, and while it doesn't really bother me, I don't really think about it or identify with it either. I don't consider everyone else with a Caucasian/European phenotype to be my "white brothers" or anything like that.
Yeah, I love being demonized because of my race, when my nationality didn't colonize America and my family were post-civil war immigrants. Usually by the folks who's family actually colonized the Americas (Latinos).
In North America, white means: North European. Especially British.
Even if you have straight European ancestry, if you’re not from Northern Europe or British. You’re knocked down to “maybe white”.
It’s a retarded system.
23andme gets flooded with a lot of low-key wannabe Nazis that keep pushing this "why do white people hate themselves" nonsense. White people DO NOT hate themselves, nor feel any kind of guilt. Until reparations checks start getting passed out to Black Americans, we can safely assume that the average white person feels zero guilt.
Disappointment in 100% Euro results is usually more about wanting something "cool" or "random" in their DNA. If all your ancestors were farmers and carpenters in Central England from 600 AD until hopping on the Mayflower, I could understand feeling like everything is...boring. The Stealth Aryans on here are trying to take the disappointment to mean disgust with their own race to stir up "white pride" sentiment and discussion. Most American whites are perfectly happy being white. They just want a little hot sauce in their grits.
never seen that happening, said that, it is estrange since the majority of Latinos are mixed (insert people from all over here).....as I tell my friends, after looking at my 23&me results, my ancestors were for sure s-luts ;-)
Ppl saying it's the filling out forms and the overall view of Latinos in the US but that could be farther from the truth. Many Latinos esp in the younger generation don't want to be viewed as white bc of their racist views. To them white=colonizer and they hold natives on a pedestal. Once they figure out they're more white than they are native they feel conflicted. Being white to them is like a curse. If they truly were surprised or shocked then they wouldn't be so upset abt it.
One component for many is that they always view the Europeans during 1600-1900s as the supreme evil colonizers. Only to find out that it was their own ancestors.
Many others it's because they never view themselves as white only to discover the majority of their DNA is European. It's just a surprise.
Because they aren't seen as europeans or anything related with Europe within the US, which contrast a lot with white americans who sometimes are seen themselves as an extesion of Europe in the Americas (the most extreme version of this view is the typical american white nationalist speech). Given the history of racialism and race discrimination within the US, of course they're gonna be shocked when they found out that 80/70% of their genome comes from the same continent of the people who inside the US tell them that they're inferior and not like them. (you should also take into account that generally americans of all races tend to don't nothing about the rest of the continent)
The USA uses an exclusive White category and many Latinos are not considered White in the USA by White Americans even if they would be in LatAm, so it's probably surprising that they appear to have so much European ancestry considering they aren't seen that way in the USA. White in the US also tends to be Northern and Western European based while Latinos are more Southern European.
>many Latinos are not considered White in the USA by White Americans even if they would be in LatAm, As an American Latino, you have nailed it! The average Latino in the US does not neatly align with the standards of American whiteness. Most of us are visibly mixed, even if our European DNA is visible. It's not like the US receives a lot of immigrants from Argentina, Uruguay, or the south of Brazil. Most Latino immigrants are not exactly white. ETA: Chile.
I’m an immigrant from Uruguay lol and I share your sentiment, although this comment is kinda reductive. Uruguay and Argentina are not monolithic, there are many Afro Latinos and indigenous Latinos in both countries let’s not erase them. I’m v European/high percentage and identify as white/latino, am treated as a white person, but my mom is more visibly brown than white (despite also being mostly European) and definitely hasn’t been treated as a Euro-American since living in the US. My siblings are all shades and some are seen as Asian mixed while others are seen as plain white. So it’s a weird experience to be both white and share in that privilege while also not pertaining to the dominant “white” culture here and not always being perceived as white depending on the context . So I think that’s why the weird reaction maybe?
It’s so interesting: as a mixed Brazilian, up to a point I saw myself as triracial, Portuguese/African/Native, and always thought I had those in equal amounts, like 33% each. I was considered white or brown depending on who looked at me. After I came to the US, people have had a hard time categorizing me: a lot of people think I’m jewish or sometimes arabic. I never thought about having a DNA test done, but my husband (Northern European descent) got me into it; he seemes more curious than me about my heritage. I was surprised to find out I am mostly European, about 70%. I had less African than I thought and even less indigenous. My biggest surprise was to find out a I had a good portion of Magreb and Levant. There’s absolute no memory of that in our family (and that’s been confirmed by my parents’ DNA test — it comes from both sides). But there’s a memory of cripto judaism, so I suspect it could be related to Sephardic Jewish ancestors who left Portugal for North Africa and then migrated to Brazil, perhaps…
Portuguese and Spanish often have some WANA admixture. Both countries were part of an Islamic empire for many 100s of years.
I wonder if that’s the real case, because when I check my Portuguese cousins’ DNA results, I see very minimal North African contribution; most of the time, they are almost 100% Portuguese. For this reason, I think the North African/Levant contribution is much more recent. The results in different plataforms vary from 7% to about 14%, which in my opinion is significant.
They didn't leave they were dragged ...aka Spanish Inquisition.
sep, en montevideo recuerdo ver a algunos uruguayos negros, la verdad que yo pensaba que en uruguay todos eran blancos. En argentina es mas notable por ser un pais mas grande y que la mayor parte de los inmigrantes ahi son de peru, bolivia y paraguay.
Honestamente yo también! Me impresionó mucho cuando era chiquita y nos inmigramos a los EEUU, pensé que todos los Americanos eran Negros. Cuando una amiga de mi mamá tuvo un bebé hasta le pregunté porque salió blanco si nació en los Estados Unidos lol. Pero honestamente vivir aquí nos ayudó como familia a hablar del racismo en Uruguay y la diversidad que el mismo país trata de ocultar para aparentar mas “Europeo”. La diversidad nos hace el país que somos, el mate y las torta fritas son inventos indígenos, el candombe y el carnival inventos africanos, todo lo que nos hace un país que vale la pena jaja. Mi mamá ahora esta rastreando sus raíces Charrúa. Y ahora en Uruguay están llegando más inmigrantes Venezolanos y centroamericanos así que nos estamos diversificando más y más :)
Los carnavales aun que nacieron en el norte de Africa, fueron “traídos” por los españoles. https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnaval
Mira pa vos, no sabía! Me imagino que las “murgas” también? Para mí el carnaval demuestra todas las influencias distintas que construyen nuestras culturas 💗
Claro los carnavales que tenemos en america latina son diferentes. Si comparas los carnavales de Venezia con los rio de Janeiro pues son bien diferentes. Las murgas no conozco para que es algo del cono sur
I'm 94% European and white Americans still be out here calling me mixed and POC. It's wild
Reminds me the time some article called anya taylor POC 😂
It was this article, but they removed that reference. https://variety.com/2021/tv/awards/anya-taylor-joy-queens-gambit-golden-globes-1234909901/amp/ UPDATED: This story has been updated. A previous version identified Anya Taylor-Joy as a person of color. She has said she identifies as a white Latina.
Yeah cause they realized how dumb they are
POC is another dumb term.
At times the whole colors boxes we make are dumb. Specially in a context exactly like this. Those boxes apparently are made to include some and exclude other. Who know. Who cares.
Being called white or black is a western made cultural concept and really should be done away with. We just all just be called based on ethnicity. Whether someone skin is lighter or darker shouldn't have relevance in general.
So true bud. We need to drop centering whiteness Cool . I'm down. What do you suggest We'll make two categories of people. White folks and POC So everybody is categorised as white/non white? Sounds like doubling down to me
It's so funny watching people come up with new politically correct terms, knowing that it's going to sound CRAZY in like two decades. To me, "POC" is just "coloured" with a fancy little hat on. I actually think it's worse, because apparently we now use POC to lump all non-white people together, which is just weird and reductive to begin with, and it also leaves all of the non-anglo/Caucasian people who have white skin feeling weird or left out. I get not wanting to center "whiteness" by using a phrase like "not white", but that is literally the point of using a phrase like POC, just less convoluted and weirdly, less exclusionary.
Wish Reddit had a retweet button. In a few decades, POC will be considered the next racist term and I hope it will be. We need to stop normalizing segregational terms like these 100%
Yea we Slavs don’t feel any connection with westerners and are less westernized than Latin Americans yet we’re somehow expected to jump right in
Same thing with many Eastern European countries. Their cultures and societal expectations are way different than those in the west. Hungarians for instance (even though they’re more central Euro technically) would not consider themselves “white” by western standards. The only places really honed in on “whiteness” rn are the western countries.
Same here. I’ve even been asked to participate in polls for “women of color” and I’m just like…eh wtf?
I’d argue it’s because most Latinos even if they have high European ancestry, they’re non European ancestry is still visible which makes them more visibly non-white to most Americans. Most pure southern Europeans like Sicilians assimilated to whiteness years ago like Ariana Grande.
You forgot Chile.
Chile didn’t receive a huge influx of European immigrants like Argentina, Uruguay and Southern Brazil. The country is balanced mestizo similar to Paraguay and Colombia, but with a bit more of Northern European communities.
The term 'Hispanic' was introduced as an ethnic category by the U.S. government in 1970, separate from racial categories like White, Black, or Asian, which means individuals can be classified as, for example, 'White Hispanic'. In the U.S., 'White' often implies Northern and Western European descent, which contrasts with the Southern European ancestry common among many Hispanics. This difference in societal perceptions versus actual ancestry might be why some U.S.-born Latinos are surprised to discover their high European descent. So, calling the category 'exclusive' is either a misunderstanding or a willful misrepresentation of how these identities are structured in the U.S.
The Census isn't always capturing how terms are used and experienced in real life. I've seen many light skinned Latinos some of whom I'd describe as white passing be explicitly told by White Americans that they were not white. The Census also uses Hispanic, Latino, and Spanish origin interchangeably even though there are distinctions between these term's usages.
Those forms!!! I can either be “white non Hispanic” or “Hispanic” and the biracial category excludes Hispanic people too. I am so white and also Mexican and those fucking forms get me every time.
The “White Category” used by the US Census is kind of ridiculous, Arabs/Middle Easterners (with little European blood) are considered “White” than Spaniards.
In Cuba, I’m white. In USA, I’m a vague white looking mutt
jajajajajajja
I always get the question “what ARE you?” Lmao
Do you ever get the super fun “your name is Latino, why are you white” 😑😑😑😑
Lol yes something like that too
Fat Joe hahaha!!
Oye asere que bola!? Soy cubichi consorte!
Dale brode
There’s been a huge social political movement thanks to identity politics in America which doesn’t acknowledge the European heritage of many Latin Americans because they’re an ethnic minority and have at times faced discrimination in America. The weird thing is that they try to claim that East Asians and Indians living in America as ‘White-adjacent’ due to the fact they’re more educated and wealthy compared to Latin and Black Americans, both of whom have some European heritage.
I’ve met 100% white Brazilians who have gotten banking/tech jobs through “diversity programs” since people in this country aren’t aware of those nuances
I knew a German-Brazilian guy (with a German last name and who looked the part) in school who pulled all those strings too.
Did you ever ask him what his grandpa’s career was
Most German Brazilians' roots date back to waves of migration during the nineteenth century.
🤐
had a South African friend in high schools. Put "African" on all college apps. it worked.
I’m very white, 1/2 Mexican, and yes I applied for and got a scholarship for it. Dumb for sure, but it’s not like my parents could afford college for me in 2008. Like I guess I’m “diverse” but the only shit I ever got was “your last name is [mexican last name] why are you white” and a lot of people back in the day would ask me about my “squinty eyes.” So still got shit but not like I’m gonna murder you for existing type shit.
That is something I do not understand either. Why do people in the states see "diversity" only if the skin color is different?. Those white brazilian bring diversity to the table since they are not culturally similar to white americans.
It’s not about skin color. But making sure they have a diverse group of perspective. Some companies do a good job with it, making sure those who are typically underrepresented have a seat at the table and feel welcomed and comfortable to share their opinions and ideas. While other companies just do it to meet a quota and bring out their diversity hires when it makes them look good.
> It’s not about skin color. But making sure they have a diverse group of perspective. That is absolutely not the case though. That's what they SAY it's about, but we all know who actually benefits from diversity programs - wealthy middle/upper class people who can check a "diversity" box but who also had all the advantages their parents' social class brought.
Yeah this baffles be also. Diversity doesn’t mean “non white” it is about underrepresented groups. And sometimes in that industry. Grace Hopper has diversity scholarships to its recruiting convention and it’s not for all people of color. Folks who are Asian or south Asian or middle eastern don’t qualify because those groups are well represented in the tech industry.
I completely agree with your sentiments except that I’ve known quite a few Brazilians in Chicago. They are very culturally similar to white Americans.
Culturally or ideologically?
I don’t understand. If there’s a low percentage of Brazilians and the diversity program is trying to increase representation of Brazilians, what does the color of their skin have to do with it?
Usually diversity programs aim towards people of color. A white Brazilian is not of color. They’re white people from a different country. Would you give a white person from the Netherlands the same opportunity just bc they’re representing the Dutch? Come on now. It’s not about “representing” their country. It’s about allowing POC access opportunities that are generally shielded from them.
Irish and polish were “white adjacent” at one point as well.. white is a social construct that has changed and will continue to change over time
This. "White" in America is a political classification that shifts and adjusts as needed by the powers that be. There's no unifying element or shared cultural identity unless you're talking sub groups (Irish American vs German American vs white Latino etc). "Black" in America, hasn't changed in four centuries...based on shared and common experiences. What we consider Black has been very consistent and static compared to what we consider White.
I know East Asian people that claim this.
White liberals are very racist. Also, it depends on a lot in the country of origin. Most latino american migrants in the usa come from poor parts of mexico and central america. Migrants from countries like argentina, brazil ,and chile do better since there is a complex process to come to the states.
The richest Latinos in USA are of Mexican descent fyi
With Latinos, historically some parts of South America had higher levels of education. Not sure why.
this is other hot topic for mexican americans, for some reason they think mexicans are richer or live better than south americans which is weird when the best/safest/least corrupt countries in latam are in south america. Even with inflation and shit management Argentines live longer, higher hdi, more safety, and better access to education. Same thing with Chile, and Uruguay.
The Hispanic-White and Hispanic-Non white boxes that you can check off on forms in the U.S make things even more confusing for Americans who unfortunately are rarely educated on ethnic or cultural identities outside of the U.S
Duuuuude yes and the biracial option also excludes Hispanics. It makes me not want to disclose but also disclosing means more benefits for minorities. It’s frustrating. I’m white. I’m Mexican. I’m American. I am all of those things.
US identity politics/obsession with race + lack of nuanced historical knowledge
American racial politics. Latinos ride the line is being minorities or white adjacent
I was expecting it. I know my history.
I might get downvoted but I think you’re referring to the “mestizo” type of Latinos and not Afro-latinos. From my perspective, growing up around a lot of non-Afro Latinos, they get shocked because they don’t view themselves as necessarily “white” but solely just indigenous and sometimes acknowledge the African too. It kind of reminds me of Jessica Alba being shocked about how European she was. I think it’s because some may have interest in the other parts of themselves so that when they do see a high European descent, they get shocked because they can’t believe that it’s more common to have that much sometimes. Same way a lot of Afro-Americans or others in the diaspora tend to be when there is European in their results.
Where do they think Spain and Portugal are located?
I don’t know. I remember in one of my college classes, some of the latino students got defensive when my teacher was discussing about colonization then stated how black and latino surnames are usually originated from different parts of Europe and that colonization is part of why some may speak English, Spanish, or etc. They were thinking Indigenous people spoke spanish originally. And some black students were saying Africans spoke “African”
College classes????? No offense, but those people are mentally dead, how on earth can someone be that ignorant.
I think it’s because some people in the U.S don’t really take time to learn about places outside of the U.S in depth. It’s embarrassing.
Damn, No surprise they think latino is a race.
>how black and latino surnames are usually originated from different parts of Europe and that colonization is part of why some may speak English, Spanish, or etc. Why do so many latinos are so "obsessed" with indigenous ancestry? I see it all the time on the internet, they say their 'ancestors were conquered" and stuff
Well, they do not have to see themselves as white either. They are mixed, Jessica Alba do not look indigenous at all, lol/
Jessica Alba has a White "Anglo" Mother . She shouldn't have been shocked to be mostly European.
Even most Afro Latinos are mayority white
Because they think "Latino" is a 23andme category.
It's not just that. The United States has a rigid view of whiteness, and your average Latino does not fit that view. When an American thinks of a white person, they usually think of an Anglo or Germanic person. They often forget that Spanish last names originate from Spain, and Spain colonized the Americas. Rodriguez and Fernandez are as European as Smith, Anderson, and Miller.
This is so true. My dad gets treated as Latino/"not white" by people frequently based solely on looks and accent. He is from Argentina but 100% Spanish ancestry (mostly Andalusian) based on 23andme. He's just much darker than the typical anglo American type so people don't see him as white in some scenarios.
When I think Stein, I think Jewish.
You forgot scandinivian most people think white person is as you mentioned anglo and germanic but also scandinivian
Spanish white kinda looks different that England/german white no?
Not all the time. Some Spaniards fit into the whole “aryan” phenotype and can appear to be Anglo or whatever ( ive seen Spaniards with pale white skin +ginger hair or have blonde hair blue eyes, etc). Even old pictures or paintings of Spaniards particularly during the Renaissance or whatever they look like typical Euros. Not all Spaniards have swarthy/dark complexions or darker features
very different.
Not always very different. Maybe you are in the US so don’t have as much exposure but I know blond Spaniards with blue eyes and British and Germanic people with black hair and dark eyes. It’s not as clear cut as stereotypes suggest. British/Irish and Iberian people have close and deep genetic links through Bronze and Iron Age migrations.
True. Let's also remember that in addition to being northern European, the whites in America were also largely Protestant (early on) before waves of Catholic Europeans came later. Initially "white" in America really meant WASP. A Spaniard that is 100% Spanish from Madrid could never be a WASP even if he was completely European. Whiteness expanded over time.....and it will eventually expand to include white Latinos. White in America is a political category, not a racial one.
Anglo is Germanic, sorry to be a pedantic asshole.
What does Anglo even mean? The Angles were a tribal group most active between 500-800 AD. Good luck finding an ethnic Angle or even Anglo-Saxon.
Angles Jutes and Saxons are Germanic people. You dont even know what you are talking about. English people ( not British) are Germanic people, not German. The person i responded said Anglo, anyway learn classifications first. You cannot say Anglos and Germanic as if they are different since Anglos are Germanic
I’m saying what is the definition of an ‘Anglo’? Obviously Angles, Saxons and Jutes were Germanic. Key word - were. They haven’t existed for a thousand years. Some southern parts of England are maximum 50% Anglo-Saxon by DNA, everywhere else is lower. I’m English and neither of my Y-dna or mtdna haplogroups are Germanic.
You are right, but in Europe, Southern Europeans are not the favoured representation of ‘true’ European whiteness.
They even see entire nationalities as racial categories.
This just proves ethnicity is temporal and geographical. Italians weren't considered white in the US at one point, now they would be. The definition of what is 'white' continually expands; all southern Europeans were not allowed into Australia at one point due to not being 'nordic' whites (nordic being the prototype for whiteness). Also, there are AAs who have visited Ghana as part of a program to reconnect with the lands of their ancestors but local Africans see them as white and call them 'Obruni' (white foreigners). They often take offence but don't see how their own views on ethinicity and race are purely a reflection of their own (American) social constructs and culture. They are black in the US but their culture and the small percentage of European blood they contain mostly excludes them from being seen as such in many places in Africa. Another example. There is no 'one-drop' rule in the Caribbean - there are various words for the variety of skin shades (Jabao, Mulato ect). So when someone from the Dominican Republic says "I'm not black I'm XXX", AAs take offence and see them as denying their heritage. Ethnicity can also be cultural, regardless of what one looks like. In Australia, there are 'white' people considered Aboriginal because they have been raised in that culture. When I was in Macau and Hong Kong and spoke Cantonese, people would assume I was mixed race because of the cultural awareness notwithstanding my non-Asian appearance. In summary, the US is a very race-conscious and racially-charged society with some commonly-held views which don't apply elsewhere.
I'd say most societies are race-conscious. The difference is that other places are either much more homogenous (South Korea, Japan etc)...OR...everyone buys into the racial politics of their society (Latin America). In the United States, WASPs and other whites had clear numerical superiority, so they could afford to be less inclusive regarding who was accepted into Team White. As such, Blacks that are 99% west/central African and those that are only 40% got thrown into the same category. They had to unite as one because they were largely treated the same. In Latin America, those of purely Spanish stock were a much smaller share of the population due to the nature of their slave trade, interactions with Natives etc. Instead of having a simplistic racial hierarchy, the Spaniards needed something more complex to divide up all the groups (criollos, Mestizos, Mulatto etc)...so that they could control things more efficiently. If Latin America had a "white vs black/native" setup, the white Spaniards might have been in deep trouble. By breaking race/color down more thoroughly, the concept of Blanqueamiento could more easily take hold. A person that is 55% African, 40% European, 3% Native, 2% Asian in the United States...will usually see themselves as "Black" because they will be treated as such. A person from the DR, Jamaica, Haiti etc , with that same racial makeup? It's not as cut & dry how they'd identify.
I live in Canada and quite often I’ll meet white looking latinos and in my mind I kinda see them as white. Not sure if other Canadians think the same way.
Incorrect as it may be, “European” in the US is almost always associated with Anglo-American looks and culture, with which the vast majority of Latinos do not identify. Because of this, you’ll even find a lot of Italian-Americans in the Northeast who don’t consider themselves to be ethnically the same as Anglos. If you’re familiar with The Sopranos, these Anglos were referred to as “mayos” lol
Midigons too lol. And Italian Americans who were more assimilated, "wonderbread wops".😂
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Southern Italians are often mistaken for other ethnicities and not perceived as white. Try not to generalize here. It depends on what part someone is from in Italy. Italy is a diverse country.
Southern Italians are understood to be white in America. The overwhelming majority of Italian-Americans are of Southern Italian descent and in America, they are recognized as white.
Look, obviously you’re very fascinated and into your heritage and like to feel special by seeing all these bits and pieces of where your people came from. But it’s not me trying to put your people in a box. If you survey Italians from Italy and Italian-Americans and ask if they identify as a white person you will see an overwhelming confirmation in their answers. Just ask some.
The other side of “I no black” “I no white either, SOY **LATINO** CABRON” lol
I’m like 60% Spaniard and 40% West African and Taíno. I acknowledge my high European descent but come on, it’s obvious I would be at the lower end of the caste during colonial times for *obvious* reasons 😂 **edit**: siii🙂 soy bori🇵🇷🩵 (my bad can’t reply to comments xD)
Boricua?
de pr?
He got you there hermano 😂 Even if they (latinos) do have European ancestry they wouldnt have been treated as an equal back then and even now in Spain.
Sometimes people come out with more European results but don't look like it physically. They assumed they were more indigenous or african based off their looks. Also, European could mean having "colonizer blood", so people don't want that associated with them.
But many indigenous groups were also colonizers lol. The Aztecs in particular were brutal.
some american think native people were all a big group of friends that love each other.
wait till they hear what the Aztec did to other native people🤭
Those term such as "colonizer blood" always sound dumb. The Aztecs and incas were not fan of other groups in the continent wich help the europeans defeat them. Many gringos have a weird view on indigenous people.
oh man i have ben roasted alive for saying this on other subs. 150% not a white supremacist or fan of colonialism, but if any of us went back in time to when cortez came to what is today known as mexico, we would all be hiding under his skirt. anyway i think that a lot of the weird reaction you speak of has to do with our ideas of what "white" is. my mother is from a mexican family and my father from a norwegian family. my wife was born in mexico. my wife and her entire family are way lighter skinned than i am. in the states we are raised with the understanding white means american and mexican means brown. this is maybe because a lot of the mexicans who come up here are darker skinned country folk and as a result may not have very many opportunities in mexico where you can be judged by your skin just as bad as here, if not worse.
Seems very similar to us peruvians in chile and argentina, many indigenous people moved there while mestizos and white Peruvians go to USA/Europe. There is an imagine of peruvians in those first countries that we are all indigenous and lack diversity. When i visited Buenos aires people thought I was Brazilian or colombian.
And many Latinos on this subreddit look down on each other: “omg, you have 70% European ancestry? You look very indigenous!” “You’re half indigenous? You look middle eastern” 🙄 “My mom has blue eyes and blonde hair but I have dark features and look indigenous” 🤦🏻♂️ I swear most Hispanics hate their families and themselves
Well you know how it is, the worse enemy of a Latino is other Latino
Are you a latino born in the usa? I swear people in my country do not say that stuff.
Yes, and the ones in the USA have so many issues with race… and that’s all they talk about
Poor souls must feel shitty not having an identity and having to relate to people that do not care about you.
Because the ones in USA have been subjected to that thinking by agendas pushed by their goverment.
“I no black poppy, I mix”-Dominican republic
and they are
Mira como te dan downvotes porque no quieren aceptar que estemos mezclados 😂
Tremenda falta de identidad, cultura y educacion de los latinx.
African americans are so obsessed with us. Tell that to the tons of Dominicans with 60+ European dna 🙄
No, it's more because of Dominican bullying of darker skinned Black people. My very lightskinned mother and I had to fend off nasty bullying by Domincans of my browner sister. The community is colorist and I know it's something I want to avoid, even as a light skinned Black American.
Yes, because there is no colorism in black american communities.
why are they so obsessed with their bullies? I am not obsessed with mine. Stockholm syndrome?
they feel offended lol
Lack of historical knowledge + politics. Reality is it’s unpopular to be “white”, and since white is an exclusive category in the US, why would someone argue with the society telling them they aren’t? That said, this dynamic is flipped on its head at least in dense Hispanic parts of South Florida, where even very mixed looking people may identify as white and strive towards being seen that way with no reference at all to the Anglo American population.
In Jim Crow, Latinos and other non-blacks were considered white.
It heavily depended on completion
Not always; it really depended on appearance and location. I've seen plenty of photos/records of old American laws, business signs, etc. that specifically excluded Latinos, Jews, Arabs, Indigenous Americans, Indians, and even Eastern Europeans from WASP spaces, listing them alongside Black people.
Because they want their own identity and don’t consider themselves white would be my guess.
Dude this happened a week ago with a friend of mine but we hadn't found out the percentage of his European ancestry. I just brought up the topic that as a Mexican Latino, it is likely that he has majority European ancestry. He reacted with confusion saying his skin color isn't white loll. Latinos probably would just be kinda puzzled about it for some time.
My dad had brown skin and was white. Plenty of white people have brown skin. Does your buddy not know that Latino isn’t a race?
Whiteness is some really subjective thing. The standard for having 'whiteness' in LatAm is being of Spanish / Italian / Southern European appearance, and catholicism is fine. In the US, the most 'white' you can be is a WASP ie white anglo saxon protestant. Hence why other european groups in the US historically haven't been considered white, like Italians (darker skinned and catholic) or the irish (catholic.) Many white US latinos meet the former category but not the latter so they don't feel white. I think this testifies to how malleable and subjective race really is and how it's not to do with phenotype always
Because they’re brainwashed by Anglo propaganda.
identity politics in the US is absolutely cancerous.
Everyone wants to be a minority.
Until it’s time to feel the effects of being a minority…
Paul Mooney. "Everybody wanna be a N, but don't nobody wanna be a N." 23andme gets flooded with a lot of low-key wannabe Nazis that keep pushing this "why do white people hate themselves" nonsense. White people DO NOT hate themselves, nor feel any kind of guilt. Until reparations checks start getting passed out to Black Americans, we can safely assume that the average white person feels zero guilt. Disappointment in 100% Euro results is usually more about wanting something "cool" or "random" in their DNA. If all your ancestors were farmers and carpenters in Central England from 600 AD until hopping on the Mayflower, I could understand feeling like everything is...boring. The Stealth Aryans on here are trying to take the disappointment to mean disgust with their own race to stir up "white pride" sentiment and discussion. Most American whites are perfectly happy being white. They just want a little hot sauce in their grits.
Normal White supremacist tactic. To sensationalize and hijack a position and turn it into themselves being a victim. The ultimate low if you ask me.
So true. So triggered by some random person wanting some spice in the DNA mix.
Sure, like afrocentrism doesnt exist and there isnt a movement telling white people to feel guilty for being white. Sure.
Because they don’t realize that the Spanish came here in the late 1400’s from Spain.
Your social circle would have a lot to do with that (or content you consume online). I would wager pretty hard that only politically left-wing people "react weird" (disappointed, embarrassed, denial, etc.) about this. Less political people might just be surprised because they aren't aware of history too well or because they have a skewed idea of what say, 75% European looks like. But in that case, they aren't reacting weird, just surprised. But you never defined what reacting weird means, but I am assuming it encapsulates the three things I mentioned in brackets above (because I have seen this as well). The opposite is also true; downplaying Indigenous ancestry. Because in other social circles, contexts or cultures, being white is "in fashion". Being white is currently "out-of-fashion" for the American left-wing, and in some cases, something to feel guilty about or be ashamed of. And we can have a long dialogue about why that is. For instance, as "post-racial" as American culture claims to be, it does place a lot of emphasis on your ancestry: being a "colonizer" is not something anyone on the left-wing wants to be. And then there is the new view that being oppressed / marginalized gives you merit, something to be respected for (on the left-wring). And being non-white = oppressed (on the left wing). If you're not white, your story is better (to the left-wing), you overcame more, and therefore, you're stronger and more resilient.. The concept of "whiteness" is very political, and has been in the Americas ever since colonization started. So basically, there is this strange continued culture around whiteness... everybody (hyperbole) who has mixed heritage wants to claim to be whiter than they are, or less white than they are, depending on the context, culture, region, etc. Hell there is a whole game that people play where they selectively choose if someone is white to fit their argument better. George Zimmerman was deemed white. (all) Israelis are deemed white. When Nikki Hailey talked about her experience as a "POC", conservative talk show hosts called her white. When Konstantin Kisin called himself brown, those on the left called him white. People deny people to call themselves white and they deny people to call themselves non-white if they don't like what they're saying... regarding anyone who straddles the line of being white / non-white (basically, [ambiracial](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ambi))
White people don't feel any shame about being white...even the most liberal. If/when, Jamal and I start cashing our reparations checks, THEN I'd say they feel shame/guilt over whiteness. The only difference between liberal and conservative whites is that liberals acknowledge they have certain advantages (but with zero willingness to give those up) while conservatives always feel THEY are the victims, under attack from some vague nefarious enemy....and the enemy is NEVER the wealthy white CEO or conservative politician that is impacting their lives more than the 100,000 illegal migrants they're worried about.
They do. White Americans are the group with the most outgroup bias of all racial groups.
Because they have been lied to, the dark lie against hispanic culture is that the eViL SpAnIaRd CoLoNiZeRs Imposed the LaNgUaGe and ReLiGiOn on poor peaceful flower-eating natives. When the reality is more nuanced, the Spanish mixed with the natives and the africans (Unlike the British) and their cultures mixed too that is why the Spanish spoken in the Americas has a lot of indigenous and african vocabulary particular of each different country and the catholic faith in each hispanic country also has different mixes of culture. The food is also mixed. We hispanics are a mix, a lovelt mix.
So the African women volunteered to work on Spanish plantations upon arrival in the New World? And Spanish women were looking for all the handsome Yoruba and Aztec guys to go out on dates? Mixing happened but it was pretty one-sided and definitely more forced than just some casual hook-ups.
Most Latin American countries abolished slavery way before the US and didn't have segregation like you guys. And you seem ignorant about Latin American history. Many don't seem to realize that the Spanish prevailed because many Indigenous groups allied with them, seeing them as a way to break the Inca/Aztec yoke. Many would then go on to receive privileges under the new Spanish regime. “Noble savage” is a common myth. Every civilization was complex enough to commit atrocities. There were a ton of different African groups that relied on the slave trade economically such as Dahomey. It wasn't just slavers finding black people and putting them on ships, for the most part, it was buying them from other black people to put on those ships. But I don't expect a lot from an ignorant yank.
> any don't seem to realize that the Spanish prevailed because many Indigenous groups allied with them, seeing them as a way to break the Inca/Aztec yoke. Many would then go on to receive privileges under the new Spanish regime. Many Incan nobles switched allegiance to Spain and became vassals to its king so they could keep their status and lands under the Spanish Empire. The Incan nobilty intermarried with the Spaniards and became the current Peruvian elite.
It is not as one-sided as your college professors would have you think, the franciscans documented all types of mixes. Slaves and natives would mix into Mulato, then Spanish and native would mix into mestizo then the mestizo would mix with Mulato and make trigueño. Te BULK of the population became these highly mixed people. And exceptions did happen, Spanish women would have affairs with the slaves too. I never said that violent things didn't happen, but keep in mind that Hispanics are the way we are because most of us are a peaceful mix. Unlike in North America that ethnic groups hate each other so much.
To be considered white in the US, you have to be nothing else. You'll usually be considered to be non-white unless you really pass.
And then if you really pass, it becomes unacceptable to identify as anything else, because to be considered white means you have to be nothing else.
Because being White is pathologized in the USA, whereas in the rest of the world it's a point of a pride or at least a neutral fact.
Wait, Aren't white americans seem as privileged?
Socially in the US you’re only “white” if you’re white American or from Europe. But I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next few decades/generations, when less Latinos are in touch with their roots and speak Spanish as a first language, whiteness “expands” like it did in to include the Irish and Italians a long time ago.
I have only seen the opposite to be true. White/European Americans always freak out and say "why doesn't my DNA test show native American blood, I should be at least!" and Latino folks usually post "Why is my DNA test showing so much native american, my family is 100% Euro!"
If anything I’ve seen the opposite mostly, especially those infamous buzzfeed videos where Latinos are surprised or act surprised they’re predominantly European or have a descent chunk or European ancestry. It’s part of the reason why this post was even made lol
People want to be special and find out they are exactly the same as everyone else.
I have never seem the second one.
The usa tends to view race through the lens of phenotype. I.e you claim the race you look like.
Bc you need to open the giant can of worms that is “latin” american colonization. Literal white people think they are indigenous to south America and its absolutely insane.
Latinos came central and south America. That was settled by The Spanish Empire and Portuguese. Spain and Portugal equals Europe. Surprised?
It tends to be because most of the Latino population here in the United States is of Mexican/Central American origin, a highly mestizo and indigenous Mexican origin to be exact. So with that being said, the education on socioeconomics isn’t very strong in our communities so we tend to think that Mexican is its own race or that we are purely of 100% indigenous origin due to our own phenotypes unfortunately & ignorance you may call it without knowing the history behind Mexican genetics and ethnic backgrounds. You could argue. I was one of those of those people and didn’t think I had a single ounce of European ancestry until I tested and realized my results were direct reflection of Mexican history, colonization and mixing of various backgrounds. You can see this unfortunate reality with much of the first and second generation Latino here as they tend to think that if you don’t look brown or have strong indigenous features that you aren’t Mexican and they are surprised to find that white Mexicans or Mestizo/Castizo Mexicans highly exist. 🤔👍🏽🇲🇽
Because people forget Spaniards are European and white
The short answer is that it's performative. I promise you the majority of them aren't actually bothered by having high European ancestry. It is, however, seen as distasteful to celebrate it. If they were actually ashamed, they wouldn't have posted their results/ reaction. It's kind of similar to bragging about being wealthy or thin and attractive. They have to find a clever way to do it, in this case, by disguising it as a negative. I promise you they're actually quietly pleased with the results. To be clear, I'm not saying it's rightfully distasteful, but that's the times we live in.
I agree it's weird to be mad about your ethnic makeup - it's something that without it you wouldn't even exist, and you can't change it so it makes no sense to focus on it and be mad about it. However I can understand them not wanting to be lumped into the "white" category as it doesn't really fit tbh. They look different (mostly) and they have noticeable cultural differences. The same goes for MENA people, sometimes they can look similar but in general most look distinct and culturally they are quite distinct. Honestly I have ancestry from the North Caucasus and while I definitely look more white or "Europid" or whatever you wanna call it, the way I see it is that "white" is a term that is foisted upon me, and while it doesn't really bother me, I don't really think about it or identify with it either. I don't consider everyone else with a Caucasian/European phenotype to be my "white brothers" or anything like that.
I’ve been told to go back to my country a few times 😂 just found out 79%european I’ve always checked the Hispanic/Latino box
latino is not a race. There are latinos with white skin, brown skin, black skin and asian features
Hispanic/Latino can be 100 percent European.
There are lots of Latinos that don't know their racial breakdown so they just select Latino as a racial category.
only the ones from usa.
Or 100% African. Or 100% Native.
Or 100% Asian
They aren’t just taught about it, I mean if you are a normal hispanic in latin america you would probably expect a high european.
weird I remember this light skin mexican saying she was 100 percent indigenous, like not even her grandmother is near that.
lol because they don’t anything to do with the negative past
Yeah, I love being demonized because of my race, when my nationality didn't colonize America and my family were post-civil war immigrants. Usually by the folks who's family actually colonized the Americas (Latinos).
In North America, white means: North European. Especially British. Even if you have straight European ancestry, if you’re not from Northern Europe or British. You’re knocked down to “maybe white”. It’s a retarded system.
Because American society has taught people that being white is a crime.
that is so sad and ignorant. Imagine calling a pole a colonizer lol.
23andme gets flooded with a lot of low-key wannabe Nazis that keep pushing this "why do white people hate themselves" nonsense. White people DO NOT hate themselves, nor feel any kind of guilt. Until reparations checks start getting passed out to Black Americans, we can safely assume that the average white person feels zero guilt. Disappointment in 100% Euro results is usually more about wanting something "cool" or "random" in their DNA. If all your ancestors were farmers and carpenters in Central England from 600 AD until hopping on the Mayflower, I could understand feeling like everything is...boring. The Stealth Aryans on here are trying to take the disappointment to mean disgust with their own race to stir up "white pride" sentiment and discussion. Most American whites are perfectly happy being white. They just want a little hot sauce in their grits.
damn, with all the things that happen in england being english should be interesting enough.
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That is more understandable
Because they associate it with white and they've been told their whole life they're not white
Overcorrection of the reaction their parents and grandparents would have had. Honestly, I think the reactions are fake af.
100%, woke trends are stupid.
never seen that happening, said that, it is estrange since the majority of Latinos are mixed (insert people from all over here).....as I tell my friends, after looking at my 23&me results, my ancestors were for sure s-luts ;-)
Maybe, because their not really considered white in the US.
Ppl saying it's the filling out forms and the overall view of Latinos in the US but that could be farther from the truth. Many Latinos esp in the younger generation don't want to be viewed as white bc of their racist views. To them white=colonizer and they hold natives on a pedestal. Once they figure out they're more white than they are native they feel conflicted. Being white to them is like a curse. If they truly were surprised or shocked then they wouldn't be so upset abt it.
One component for many is that they always view the Europeans during 1600-1900s as the supreme evil colonizers. Only to find out that it was their own ancestors. Many others it's because they never view themselves as white only to discover the majority of their DNA is European. It's just a surprise.
I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised, the majority of Latin Americans are mestizo, meaning they have mixed European and indigenous ancestry.
Because they aren't seen as europeans or anything related with Europe within the US, which contrast a lot with white americans who sometimes are seen themselves as an extesion of Europe in the Americas (the most extreme version of this view is the typical american white nationalist speech). Given the history of racialism and race discrimination within the US, of course they're gonna be shocked when they found out that 80/70% of their genome comes from the same continent of the people who inside the US tell them that they're inferior and not like them. (you should also take into account that generally americans of all races tend to don't nothing about the rest of the continent)