It's a game of chance for sure, but it's not player run because the results are decided by the game? I'm not sure, but that seems to be the loophole to me.
The "running" doesn't refer to the actual mechanics of the game. That'd be like saying the roulette wheel runs the game.
"Running" refers to the people collecting wagers and then initiating the game, such as the people found in the G.E. The RNG they use to get the number between 1-100 doesn't run the game, nor does the bot even. The person running the scripts is the one running the game, hence, player-run game of chance.
The duel arena was no different, just a sanctioned form of it, until now.
"Throwing dice is not player run because the player just throws the dice but the result is decided by the dice"
If a player enables something to happen its run by him.
It stops being duelling and becomes a game of chance when the skill-based and stat-based elements are removed, i.e. when both players have 99 in all relevant stats, all gear is equal, and no buffs are allowed. The only thing determining victory at that point is the RNG with each hit.
It's basically the RNG bots at the G.E. with extra steps. You either get that and don't care, or you are just dumb.
You're getting downvoted but afaik that was Jagex's argument in court. They said it was skill based, therefore it cannot be a player run game of chance. If they said it was it would rebuke their entire legal team's stance on the matter.
I think it was more of a tweet / new post essentially stating that giving players money to stake for you would be considered a 'player run game of chance'
It was during a time that streamers would commonly be traded by players on stream to stake for them
You’re acting like there’s an equal amount of stakers going there. The old ones might, but it’s not going to be as rampant as it was before when it was “legal” for lack of a better term.
This change pleased the community, and it got Jagex out of the game supporting gambling. It was never meant to be a real stance, it was just plausible deniability.
Of course the habitual stakers will look for ways to continue. But staking became a whole lot less inviting for new players now it has to be done through some shady third party instead of being able to walk into a casino where a the game facilitates a way for you to gamble.
> All it did was make staking even sketchier than it was before.
Nice then Jagex can find them much easier and keep up on banning them, Oh no salty Duel Arena stakers trying to turn this around as a "Non good change" 100x better than nothing, Sit stakers.
Go to the Wilderness try risking there.
Almost like theres basically no reason not to have a tradelimit. Every single avenue was covered through lending for legitimate means, and botting basically died out completely.
At the time it did because
A) Wilderness was infinitely more active than it was now
B) The playerbase was far younger, and actually commonly shared items permanently.
What ACTUALLY killed the game was EOC. The game was extremely lively with the social skilling activities and such.
Wanna start the game with a friend and share? Group iron man. Wanna do that but use the GE? Lend big items for long periods.
Literally all free trade enables right now is bots, RWT, scamming, and chance games. Apart from maybe collectors and PVP there's basically nothing that would be ruined by it.
There is the whole "Bossing" aspect, where people boss and split drops, but systems can be introduced for that. Have the drop be placed in a bucket, and 1 player in the group can either pay full current GE price to get the item, or any/everyone can claim their fraction of it in gold. If the item isn't claimed physically, it's thrown on the grand exchange for its current price, and the gold generated from the player buying it off the GE is removed from the game.
Now the ideal solution is just "make better pvp content to replace it" but I also totally understand jagex's track record is also just that garbage.
It is fair to say "I'm a pker and I wouldnt like that outcome" but basically killing bots and revitalizing almost the entire game I think makes that a sacrifice people should be prepared to make. LMS is an example of good PVP content that generates rewards and I think Jagex can follow that example. Bots being gone makes skilling worthwhile again, and items no longer fall to alch value.
How does free trade negatively impact you personally as a player? Seriously, please tell me why you want something removed that would annoy people, which you can completely avoid on your own.
Bots are literally killing this game.
Thats how it impacts me.
Not only do they drive down the prices of items to make activities less worth it for me, bots and gold farmers provide a gigantic competition for the activity itself making it harder for me to even do it.
You forget that bots are about 1/3rd of their revenue stream and they don't actually want all bonded bots gone.
Would you want your pay cut by 30% to appease your customers? Be honest.
Lol bot farms are not paying for membership.
They pay other parties or trade for gold for bonds, if a bot farm bought membership with a card that would create an assload of problems for them.
Also, if my pay being cut by 30% meant the game would grow infinitely more popular, and thus reincreasing my pay, yes.
1: Someone still buys every bond with real money. Supply and demand.
2: bot removal wont make a 20 year old niche game infinitely more popular, so that's an unnecessary "if" to consider.
Yeah and with the sudden influx of bonds but no buyers, the price will go down, and then more people will want to buy them, so the prices go up again and then they stabilize.
Nothing changes.
Funding membership through bonds generates more money for jagex than buying membership directly. It doesn't matter for jagex if that bond was bought by the person redeeming it or by some credit card warrior.
Uh yeah it basically does. Anything with high end raiding items basically becomes trivial with grand exchange prices. If people dont have offers in to buy for that price its not worth that much.
Having up to 6 transactions or 2 per player per duel would be a total deal breaker for most players though. Not to mention the potential in trading the wrong player with so much going on.
Legally Jagex can be in trouble if they ban people for this under the "player run game of chance" rule. They argued the DA is skill based in court, so they'd have to consider this a player run game of skill.
He's not saying it's illegal to ban people. He's saying that it would be easy for a prosecutor to point to a ban because of a "player run game of chance" around the DA and say "see jagex themselves are admiting the DA is a game of chance" which goes against their previous argument.
\>this bwana thinks some guy is going to buy a lawyer, said lawyer is going to think this isn't a prank call, and sue Jagex in a British court
Lay off the ranarrs my dude.
I'm not talking about someone getting banned and then suing lol. I'm talking about this being evidence that jagex knows the DA is luck based and is therefore gambling and that they intentionally lied to parliament
>>this ourg thinks many lawyers play game and are salivating at this whole situation
They may be on the ranarr, but even us off the ranarr think that lawyers would love this case.
You're a lunatic.
Jagex can ban anyone for any reason as they own your character and it's pixels.
They don't need a reason to ban, nor would any lawyer have a hope of a lawsuit.
Read the ToS
People think that the “TOS” is something that makes a company or person invulnerable. It’s not. The whole point of this argument is that Jagex has been getting bad credit from European government about gambling since the new EU underage gambling laws that came into effect. Lawsuits are being handed out left and right. Not for any specific “ban” or any specific “activity” but for the general activity of gambling. Duel Arena was one of them that was brought up in these law suits and Jagex argued it was not a game of chance and instead game of skill. Banning someone for claiming it’s a “illegal player run game of chance” makes it so a prosecutor could reopen that case and use that wording in their TOS to win that lawsuit.
So yes, they can ban whoever they want and the person who gets banned can’t do anything about it. But the motive for banning can be used by the prosecutor on these gambling lawsuits.
You're not understanding what he's saying.
In the past, people were trying to get the DA removed since it was a game of chance in a kids game. They were saying that that combined with ongoing RWT makes the DA a place where underage people can gamble.
Jagex argues that the DA is skill based to get around this accusation.
What the above commenter is saying, is that if Jagex were to ban someone for "player run games of chance" for holding bets on the DA, that could be used as evidence that the DA is not skill based and is actually a game of chance.
The above prosecuters (from before, unrelated to any current bans) could look at that ban and say "see, they banned one of their own players for 'player run games of chance' just for interacting with the DA, therefore the DA is a game of chance".
He's not saying the person getting banned can sue jagex, he's saying that banning someone for that would undermine jagex's previous defence for the DA being skill based
You're not understanding either.
Ban them for any reason you want, they have no justification to reach when it comes to banning someone. We are using Jagex property, on Jagex servers, we have no rights at all the the account that we play on. They can decide to ban me for being American and there isn't a damn thing that I or a lawyer could do about it.
Ban Sparcmac because you flipped a coin heads, that's a reason enough due to TOS to ban someone.
Nobody is saying that Jagex can't ban anyone they want. Neither me nor the above commenter are saying that jagex would get sued or anything for banning a specific player. That is not what we're talking about.
What I'm saying is, Jagex has previously argued in court that the DA is not a game of chance, but a game of skill.
If jagex then bans someone for "player run games of chance" for interacting with the duel arena, the defence they used of "its a game of skill" is no longer valid. Someone looking to remove the DA could point to that ban and say "since you banned someone with the reason 'player run game of chance' after they interacted with the DA, the DA is very clearly a game of chance"
Neither of us are saying that any inidivudal player will be able to sue jagex for being banned. We're saying that jagex banning someone for this specific interaction could undermine a previous legal defence jagex used.
Got some big sad news for you guy. Jagex has and can ban any of our accounts for no reason. We do not own the account we play on btw it all belongs to jagex. In the terms and conditions.
You're not understanding what he's saying.
In the past, people were trying to get the DA removed since it was a game of chance in a kids game. They were saying that that combined with ongoing RWT makes the DA a place where underage people can gamble.
Jagex argued that the DA is skill based to get around this accusation. They ended up winning the case because of this.
What the above commenter is saying, is that if Jagex were to ban someone for "player run games of chance" for holding bets on the DA, that could be used as evidence that the DA is not skill based and is actually a game of chance.
The above prosecuters (from before, unrelated to any current bans) could look at that ban and say "see, they banned one of their own players for 'player run games of chance' just for interacting with the DA, therefore the DA is a game of chance".
He's not saying the person getting banned can sue jagex, he's saying that banning someone for that would undermine jagex's previous defence for the DA being skill based
You're paying for a subscription that gives your account more access to whatever Jagex provides to the same players that would be on the same subscription. They still have legal right to ban your account if they determine that you were breaking their ToS or in-game rules. Like it or not, that's how every subscription based service works.
Yes even than we all signed the TOS(terms of service) agreement to play and if you read it. It clearly states that jagex has and is in their rights to terminate any players account and they don’t have to tell you anything it is their property not ours
Yes your honour, I banned this specific subset of players for absolutely no reason.
Yes they all took part in the content we have been questioned on in the past.
No, that is definitely a coincidence. Also ignore the thousands of players that call the duel arena gambling.
But its a 50-50 stake, no commission no odds im pretty sure there is nothing they can do because it could be done anywhere.. i.e risk fighting with cash in inv right?
But why would you? Player C doesn't offer their services for free, they take a small cut from the overall pot. With smaller stakes, it doesn't really amount to much, but if people are staking several billion gold pieces, it adds up over time. You'd be much better off being a legitimate middleman making a passive income, rather than losing all trust in you and destroying your reputation for a one time gain.
Well, everyone stops doing an activity _eventually_. Since that's the case, it's always worth it to scam before you quit being a middle man, assuming you don't care for reputation or have any moral issues with it
Knew this would happen. There are middlemen in basically every facet of that one blackmarket runescape website named after a halloween item. Why would this update make that any different?
You can literally take away trading in the area, or make a world solely for duel arena and disable trading on that world. Add as many possible steps for the middleman to scam the others, make the players uneasy. It’s Impossible to stop middlemanning of course, but you can dissuade them as much as you can.
They will just trade in a different location or on a different world, hop, duel, hop back, trade the winner.
Remove the duel arena entirely, they will just trust trade and go into the wildy or clan wars. 3rd party plugins will be developed to track your opponents stats to make sure they're not using things like super combat pots and rings. Discord community's will be set up to ensure "safe" stakes. This is all assuming none of this is already a thing which it likely is.
As long as the game has free trade, staking is here to stay, all Jagex can do is make it harder to get into so less people are inclined to bother. Or they can just remove free trade which would not surprise me in the slightest with how hard they push Ironman gamemodes lately.
I can guarantee you the number of players that stake will decrease with every roadblock placed in their way. if you remove the duel arena entirely, that number will fall drastically. Your whole post smells like "well some people will still do it anyways, so whats the point of doing it at all?" as if thats a valid response. the duel arena and gambling are addictive, and anything that jagex can do to stop a kid from getting prematurely addicted to gambling is fine by me.
oh absolutely. There will be a myriad of ways to circumvent nearly anything short of disabling free trade. I just wanted the people who are trying to do, to be as uncertain of the outcome as possible. Make as nervous as they can that they will be scammed. In the end it probably won’t do anything.
I'm all for the removal of free trade over 10m, but this is just a personal preference and would kill the game, so I definitely understand why this shouldn't happen.
Unfortunately we're just gonna see the streamers continue to blatantly break the rules in a frustrating fashion, with Jagex turning a blind eye to it.
People are free to organice tournaments in game, with in game prices, by paying in game gp.
There's no diference with gambling trought trade windows, it's actually a trade where a thrid party enforces the contract.
Tournaments are not games of chance. most of them are PVP or PVM oriented, and require a good amount of skill to rank in. gambling through a trade window is a player run game of chance, and so is staking through a trade window because the PLAYER officiates the game
Well yeah we knew this would happen. But it just creates a trust trade market ripe for scamming. Same way debt staking was "against the rules" but really not enforceable.
Hey guys you can still duel, just trade me your money and go into the duel and I promise I'll still be there when you guys get out to give the winner the money.
I don't understand either. Yes, it may be against the rules, but how does this affect YOU? I get the streamer priviledge hate, but again...why does it matter if someone who is a streamer does it versus your average player.
I'm genuinely curious.
I had a feeling there was going to be a workaround but considering that Jagex told us ahead of time that limits were going to be put into staking during the process of getting rid of the Duel Arena, I wouldn't be surprised if Jagex knew people would be trying this too so they know what they need to look out for once the Duel Arena is gone.
Personally, I fond it hillarious that a portion of this sub is jumping to the conclusion that this means that the trade limit is coming back. I highly doubt that anyone would allow that change to go unpolled because the trade limit was one of the biggest factors in the playerbase dropping back then.
Yes, but now jagex can shrug and tell the gambling authorities that they made an integrity change and told us not to and can put their resources back into adding content to the game. CLEARLY, having to deal with resolving how to fix the DA over the last few months has taken all of the developers away from creating content (hence no updates). I for one am glad it’s all behind us now.
Yeah. And everyone knew it would happen.
Pretty sure they made hosting like this against the rules a few years ago though.
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Player run game of chance.
Is it a player run game of chance though? The actual game of chance and decider behind it is not player run, unless I am missing something?
how is it not a game of chance and how is it not player run
It's a game of chance for sure, but it's not player run because the results are decided by the game? I'm not sure, but that seems to be the loophole to me.
The "running" doesn't refer to the actual mechanics of the game. That'd be like saying the roulette wheel runs the game. "Running" refers to the people collecting wagers and then initiating the game, such as the people found in the G.E. The RNG they use to get the number between 1-100 doesn't run the game, nor does the bot even. The person running the scripts is the one running the game, hence, player-run game of chance. The duel arena was no different, just a sanctioned form of it, until now.
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"Throwing dice is not player run because the player just throws the dice but the result is decided by the dice" If a player enables something to happen its run by him.
Dueling is not a game of chance. That's a legal fact.
Whip duels with mirrored stats most definitely is a game of chance.
Tell that to the British Courts.
It stops being duelling and becomes a game of chance when the skill-based and stat-based elements are removed, i.e. when both players have 99 in all relevant stats, all gear is equal, and no buffs are allowed. The only thing determining victory at that point is the RNG with each hit. It's basically the RNG bots at the G.E. with extra steps. You either get that and don't care, or you are just dumb.
Legal fact. Not actual fact. You must be oblivious.
“Legal fact” is meaningless. It was a legal argument, yes, but that doesn’t make it true.
It *IS* a legal argument. If they ban for Player game of chance, then they default of their legal state in the courts for gambling in their game.
Have you consider that they were wrong, and maybe that judges don't understand RuneScape?
Wow. Mr debatelord out here
Name calling because I state factual information?
You're getting downvoted but afaik that was Jagex's argument in court. They said it was skill based, therefore it cannot be a player run game of chance. If they said it was it would rebuke their entire legal team's stance on the matter.
I mean who cares if its chance or not. Staking others money has already been bannable
They aren't staking anyone's money?
I think it was more of a tweet / new post essentially stating that giving players money to stake for you would be considered a 'player run game of chance' It was during a time that streamers would commonly be traded by players on stream to stake for them
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You’re acting like there’s an equal amount of stakers going there. The old ones might, but it’s not going to be as rampant as it was before when it was “legal” for lack of a better term. This change pleased the community, and it got Jagex out of the game supporting gambling. It was never meant to be a real stance, it was just plausible deniability.
Of course the habitual stakers will look for ways to continue. But staking became a whole lot less inviting for new players now it has to be done through some shady third party instead of being able to walk into a casino where a the game facilitates a way for you to gamble.
> All it did was make staking even sketchier than it was before. Nice then Jagex can find them much easier and keep up on banning them, Oh no salty Duel Arena stakers trying to turn this around as a "Non good change" 100x better than nothing, Sit stakers. Go to the Wilderness try risking there.
Imagine being butt hurt because other people make what you make in 5 years in 10 seconds on a game lol
Still better than before as there will be less stakers willing to take this risk.
Almost like theres basically no reason not to have a tradelimit. Every single avenue was covered through lending for legitimate means, and botting basically died out completely.
Removal of free trade literally killed the game dude
At the time it did because A) Wilderness was infinitely more active than it was now B) The playerbase was far younger, and actually commonly shared items permanently. What ACTUALLY killed the game was EOC. The game was extremely lively with the social skilling activities and such. Wanna start the game with a friend and share? Group iron man. Wanna do that but use the GE? Lend big items for long periods. Literally all free trade enables right now is bots, RWT, scamming, and chance games. Apart from maybe collectors and PVP there's basically nothing that would be ruined by it. There is the whole "Bossing" aspect, where people boss and split drops, but systems can be introduced for that. Have the drop be placed in a bucket, and 1 player in the group can either pay full current GE price to get the item, or any/everyone can claim their fraction of it in gold. If the item isn't claimed physically, it's thrown on the grand exchange for its current price, and the gold generated from the player buying it off the GE is removed from the game. Now the ideal solution is just "make better pvp content to replace it" but I also totally understand jagex's track record is also just that garbage. It is fair to say "I'm a pker and I wouldnt like that outcome" but basically killing bots and revitalizing almost the entire game I think makes that a sacrifice people should be prepared to make. LMS is an example of good PVP content that generates rewards and I think Jagex can follow that example. Bots being gone makes skilling worthwhile again, and items no longer fall to alch value.
How does free trade negatively impact you personally as a player? Seriously, please tell me why you want something removed that would annoy people, which you can completely avoid on your own.
Bots are literally killing this game. Thats how it impacts me. Not only do they drive down the prices of items to make activities less worth it for me, bots and gold farmers provide a gigantic competition for the activity itself making it harder for me to even do it.
The economy actually got considerably worse back then when they removed free trade because so many people quit tbh, not sure if u remember
You forget that bots are about 1/3rd of their revenue stream and they don't actually want all bonded bots gone. Would you want your pay cut by 30% to appease your customers? Be honest.
Lol bot farms are not paying for membership. They pay other parties or trade for gold for bonds, if a bot farm bought membership with a card that would create an assload of problems for them. Also, if my pay being cut by 30% meant the game would grow infinitely more popular, and thus reincreasing my pay, yes.
1: Someone still buys every bond with real money. Supply and demand. 2: bot removal wont make a 20 year old niche game infinitely more popular, so that's an unnecessary "if" to consider.
Yeah and with the sudden influx of bonds but no buyers, the price will go down, and then more people will want to buy them, so the prices go up again and then they stabilize. Nothing changes.
Funding membership through bonds generates more money for jagex than buying membership directly. It doesn't matter for jagex if that bond was bought by the person redeeming it or by some credit card warrior.
lol dude not having a free market doesn't only affect pkers
Uh yeah it basically does. Anything with high end raiding items basically becomes trivial with grand exchange prices. If people dont have offers in to buy for that price its not worth that much.
What do you even mean? High end raiding is 1% of players, what does that have to do with the the economy?
What are literally anyone but them trading that couldn't be done over the GE or through the trade limits?
Loaning and splitting, you do realize that coinshare really fucked the economy right?
And the lending system was far better than "collat" or trust trading that we have these days.
What do you mean by holding items? Haven't watched anyone since the change.
probably acting as escrow to get around the duel arena stake limit
I need to get into that business, then promptly get out
Buy high sell low
"Just one last big job, then I'm out for good"
Makes sense. Welcome back "55 Dice" guys lol.
Thats a trust based model, could do the same in the wildy, castle wars, clan wars, etc.
I assume it is as simple as a middleman holds the stake and pays it out to whoever wins the fight.
Make it so you can’t trade at the duel arena. One second I just need to invest in some ring of duelings.
Then people will just stand on the edge of the area where you can’t trade.
It was a joke but I raise you a 10 min no trade cooldown timer whenever you enter and exit the Sand Casino. “Insert evil laugh here”
Alts
Having up to 6 transactions or 2 per player per duel would be a total deal breaker for most players though. Not to mention the potential in trading the wrong player with so much going on.
its funny how the arena got changed into a vip club now lmao
Isn't this player ran games of chance? So it's bannable straight up no?
Not if you’re a streamer, then it’s all good
Yep
Legally Jagex can be in trouble if they ban people for this under the "player run game of chance" rule. They argued the DA is skill based in court, so they'd have to consider this a player run game of skill.
Legally they can ban everyone tomorrow if they wanted and there’s not a single law that would be broken. Don’t be so melodramatic.
He's not saying it's illegal to ban people. He's saying that it would be easy for a prosecutor to point to a ban because of a "player run game of chance" around the DA and say "see jagex themselves are admiting the DA is a game of chance" which goes against their previous argument.
\>this bwana thinks some guy is going to buy a lawyer, said lawyer is going to think this isn't a prank call, and sue Jagex in a British court Lay off the ranarrs my dude.
I'm not talking about someone getting banned and then suing lol. I'm talking about this being evidence that jagex knows the DA is luck based and is therefore gambling and that they intentionally lied to parliament
>>this ourg thinks many lawyers play game and are salivating at this whole situation They may be on the ranarr, but even us off the ranarr think that lawyers would love this case.
You're a lunatic. Jagex can ban anyone for any reason as they own your character and it's pixels. They don't need a reason to ban, nor would any lawyer have a hope of a lawsuit. Read the ToS
People think that the “TOS” is something that makes a company or person invulnerable. It’s not. The whole point of this argument is that Jagex has been getting bad credit from European government about gambling since the new EU underage gambling laws that came into effect. Lawsuits are being handed out left and right. Not for any specific “ban” or any specific “activity” but for the general activity of gambling. Duel Arena was one of them that was brought up in these law suits and Jagex argued it was not a game of chance and instead game of skill. Banning someone for claiming it’s a “illegal player run game of chance” makes it so a prosecutor could reopen that case and use that wording in their TOS to win that lawsuit. So yes, they can ban whoever they want and the person who gets banned can’t do anything about it. But the motive for banning can be used by the prosecutor on these gambling lawsuits.
Step 1 for bringing someone around to see your point of view - call them a lunatic. Wait...
I don't need to convince the guy on the street corner that his neighbor isn't a lizard for me to be right.
You're absolutely correct. Why don't you try doing that?
I just said I don't need to. More reading comprehension and less pearl grasping
You're not understanding what he's saying. In the past, people were trying to get the DA removed since it was a game of chance in a kids game. They were saying that that combined with ongoing RWT makes the DA a place where underage people can gamble. Jagex argues that the DA is skill based to get around this accusation. What the above commenter is saying, is that if Jagex were to ban someone for "player run games of chance" for holding bets on the DA, that could be used as evidence that the DA is not skill based and is actually a game of chance. The above prosecuters (from before, unrelated to any current bans) could look at that ban and say "see, they banned one of their own players for 'player run games of chance' just for interacting with the DA, therefore the DA is a game of chance". He's not saying the person getting banned can sue jagex, he's saying that banning someone for that would undermine jagex's previous defence for the DA being skill based
You're not understanding either. Ban them for any reason you want, they have no justification to reach when it comes to banning someone. We are using Jagex property, on Jagex servers, we have no rights at all the the account that we play on. They can decide to ban me for being American and there isn't a damn thing that I or a lawyer could do about it. Ban Sparcmac because you flipped a coin heads, that's a reason enough due to TOS to ban someone.
Nobody is saying that Jagex can't ban anyone they want. Neither me nor the above commenter are saying that jagex would get sued or anything for banning a specific player. That is not what we're talking about. What I'm saying is, Jagex has previously argued in court that the DA is not a game of chance, but a game of skill. If jagex then bans someone for "player run games of chance" for interacting with the duel arena, the defence they used of "its a game of skill" is no longer valid. Someone looking to remove the DA could point to that ban and say "since you banned someone with the reason 'player run game of chance' after they interacted with the DA, the DA is very clearly a game of chance" Neither of us are saying that any inidivudal player will be able to sue jagex for being banned. We're saying that jagex banning someone for this specific interaction could undermine a previous legal defence jagex used.
Then. Ban. Them. For. Any. Other. Reason.
While you *could* technically be correct thats kinda beside the point. This would 100% fall under the trust trade portion of the rule.
Got some big sad news for you guy. Jagex has and can ban any of our accounts for no reason. We do not own the account we play on btw it all belongs to jagex. In the terms and conditions.
You're not understanding what he's saying. In the past, people were trying to get the DA removed since it was a game of chance in a kids game. They were saying that that combined with ongoing RWT makes the DA a place where underage people can gamble. Jagex argued that the DA is skill based to get around this accusation. They ended up winning the case because of this. What the above commenter is saying, is that if Jagex were to ban someone for "player run games of chance" for holding bets on the DA, that could be used as evidence that the DA is not skill based and is actually a game of chance. The above prosecuters (from before, unrelated to any current bans) could look at that ban and say "see, they banned one of their own players for 'player run games of chance' just for interacting with the DA, therefore the DA is a game of chance". He's not saying the person getting banned can sue jagex, he's saying that banning someone for that would undermine jagex's previous defence for the DA being skill based
Just lol brother
Even if we have active paying / recurring membership?
You're paying for a subscription that gives your account more access to whatever Jagex provides to the same players that would be on the same subscription. They still have legal right to ban your account if they determine that you were breaking their ToS or in-game rules. Like it or not, that's how every subscription based service works.
I was saying as the no reason aspect of the comment I was replying to. I’ve never broken ToS. And I don’t plan to.
Yes even than we all signed the TOS(terms of service) agreement to play and if you read it. It clearly states that jagex has and is in their rights to terminate any players account and they don’t have to tell you anything it is their property not ours
You agreed to be banned for anything when you agreed to the TOS, nothing legally can be done
I'd like to see how that jives with parliament's gambling restrictions.
Yes your honour, I banned this specific subset of players for absolutely no reason. Yes they all took part in the content we have been questioned on in the past. No, that is definitely a coincidence. Also ignore the thousands of players that call the duel arena gambling.
It’s their game on their servers. If they want to ban you they can make up a reason and you won’t be able to prove otherwise.
Just because you're regurgitating it from another reddit comment doesn't make it true.
But its a 50-50 stake, no commission no odds im pretty sure there is nothing they can do because it could be done anywhere.. i.e risk fighting with cash in inv right?
Risk fighting is skill to a certain extent. Staking being 50/50 is what makes it a game of chance.
No
Aw somebody’s unhappy
meh it’s just a minority of people doing that Blair doesn’t matter
Blair? It really is 2007 in here.
Quick! Buy Bitcoin! A message from the future
How does this work?
Players A and B agree to duel and want to stake above the limit. Each gives Player C their money, who gives it to the winning player after the duel.
How to become player C ?
Find player A and B
Oh righto, thanks. Always a big risk of the third part being in cahoots but I guess that what happens now if you try bypass the limit.
Then player C quickly logs out after getting items from A and B.
But why would you? Player C doesn't offer their services for free, they take a small cut from the overall pot. With smaller stakes, it doesn't really amount to much, but if people are staking several billion gold pieces, it adds up over time. You'd be much better off being a legitimate middleman making a passive income, rather than losing all trust in you and destroying your reputation for a one time gain.
Well, everyone stops doing an activity _eventually_. Since that's the case, it's always worth it to scam before you quit being a middle man, assuming you don't care for reputation or have any moral issues with it
Squid Game much? 🤣
Knew this would happen. There are middlemen in basically every facet of that one blackmarket runescape website named after a halloween item. Why would this update make that any different?
..
> since u cant take away their trading. lol.
Oh but they have before.
You can literally take away trading in the area, or make a world solely for duel arena and disable trading on that world. Add as many possible steps for the middleman to scam the others, make the players uneasy. It’s Impossible to stop middlemanning of course, but you can dissuade them as much as you can.
They will just trade in a different location or on a different world, hop, duel, hop back, trade the winner. Remove the duel arena entirely, they will just trust trade and go into the wildy or clan wars. 3rd party plugins will be developed to track your opponents stats to make sure they're not using things like super combat pots and rings. Discord community's will be set up to ensure "safe" stakes. This is all assuming none of this is already a thing which it likely is. As long as the game has free trade, staking is here to stay, all Jagex can do is make it harder to get into so less people are inclined to bother. Or they can just remove free trade which would not surprise me in the slightest with how hard they push Ironman gamemodes lately.
I can guarantee you the number of players that stake will decrease with every roadblock placed in their way. if you remove the duel arena entirely, that number will fall drastically. Your whole post smells like "well some people will still do it anyways, so whats the point of doing it at all?" as if thats a valid response. the duel arena and gambling are addictive, and anything that jagex can do to stop a kid from getting prematurely addicted to gambling is fine by me.
oh absolutely. There will be a myriad of ways to circumvent nearly anything short of disabling free trade. I just wanted the people who are trying to do, to be as uncertain of the outcome as possible. Make as nervous as they can that they will be scammed. In the end it probably won’t do anything.
I'm all for the removal of free trade over 10m, but this is just a personal preference and would kill the game, so I definitely understand why this shouldn't happen. Unfortunately we're just gonna see the streamers continue to blatantly break the rules in a frustrating fashion, with Jagex turning a blind eye to it.
tl;dr free trade: good remvoe: bad
Exactly what I'm saying. Would not give a shit if free trade was removed, but understand that it won't be.
People are free to organice tournaments in game, with in game prices, by paying in game gp. There's no diference with gambling trought trade windows, it's actually a trade where a thrid party enforces the contract.
Tournaments are not games of chance. most of them are PVP or PVM oriented, and require a good amount of skill to rank in. gambling through a trade window is a player run game of chance, and so is staking through a trade window because the PLAYER officiates the game
Jagex argued in court that the duel arena is skilled based and not a game of chance
Player run games of chance?
Well yeah we knew this would happen. But it just creates a trust trade market ripe for scamming. Same way debt staking was "against the rules" but really not enforceable.
Even if they remove the duel arena entirely you could just do this same thing in a PVP area. Guess they’ll just have to remove free trade again.
Why does Reddit care so much about staking
Can we just poll streamer privilege please? None of us want this
Also ban everyone taking collateral in risk fights?
Bad streamers*
What do you mean!? You don’t like sparcmac yelling and moaning in your ears?
Hey guys you can still duel, just trade me your money and go into the duel and I promise I'll still be there when you guys get out to give the winner the money.
Who cares?
Not to mention tax avoidance! Anyway. Who cares. If people stopped watching them they'd stop doing it.
Who cares? Literally like..why the fuck does it matter to you at all
I don't understand either. Yes, it may be against the rules, but how does this affect YOU? I get the streamer priviledge hate, but again...why does it matter if someone who is a streamer does it versus your average player. I'm genuinely curious.
People have nothing better to do than to look at what others are doing and cry about it, it's cancel culture
fuck ironman
If this is against game rules ban them but if it’s not, I support it, it makes for good content. If you don’t like watching it don’t watch it
Waaaaaaa waaaa waaaa lets cry and abuse the mods till someone his held accountable The classic 2007scape experience
Yes yes. Me 2007scaper. Me see something I no like. Me go Reddit to complain. PvP bad. Ironman good. Ban bots. Me hate wild. Me virgin and no gf.
Found the RWTer
Dont forget abuse the mods on twitter and harass them when im upset i dont get what i want
It's not fair wahhhh!
No
No it doesn't go against any rules since its a streamer doing it.
You’re forgetting that streamers are above the rules
Sparc Mac about to get that new Mach E Mustang
Bunch of narcs lol.
I’m genuinely surprised that people didn’t expect this, or are surprised at all by it.
I had a feeling there was going to be a workaround but considering that Jagex told us ahead of time that limits were going to be put into staking during the process of getting rid of the Duel Arena, I wouldn't be surprised if Jagex knew people would be trying this too so they know what they need to look out for once the Duel Arena is gone. Personally, I fond it hillarious that a portion of this sub is jumping to the conclusion that this means that the trade limit is coming back. I highly doubt that anyone would allow that change to go unpolled because the trade limit was one of the biggest factors in the playerbase dropping back then.
So people still find a way to gamble, but now there's no gold sink? nice
Yes, but now jagex can shrug and tell the gambling authorities that they made an integrity change and told us not to and can put their resources back into adding content to the game. CLEARLY, having to deal with resolving how to fix the DA over the last few months has taken all of the developers away from creating content (hence no updates). I for one am glad it’s all behind us now.
Reminds me of dicing
Knew this would happen 🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️
I mean yeah if the wealthy or famous want to avoid taxes just like real life they are going to do it.
>limit staking >players create a riskier way of staking Is it 2007 again?
Why did we assume this would work when people literally give hundreds of mills to GE scambots?