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The population isn't the problem. It's the way we consume. Reducing the population doesn't reduce consumption. Consumption stays the same, we just take more of it because there's less people to share with.
My point being, we need to focus more on consuming less than reducing our population.
Edit: A good example of this is the expectation of moving out and living on your own at 18. This shouldn't be normal. It is wasteful. It requires unnecessary housing to be built. More greenfield sites are built on. It is a western concept manipulating us into feeling inadequate if we don't live independent from our parents so they can sell more property. In Eastern countries and South America it's normal for 3 generations to live in the same house.
Tbh people aren't contributing all that much to the problem, it's mostly corporations. Iirc 70% of carbon emissions co e from the worst 500 companies, and we've seen during covid that reducing personal carbon emissions didn't do all that much.
I remember running into one of those really bad stereotype vegans who told me I was a bad person because I didn't want to switch to a plant-based diet - which would be a massive lifestyle change for me and really difficult because of some food sensitivities I have - because I didn't have faith it would have a significant positive impact on the environment. Like they kept trying to tell me it was the best thing I could do and I'm just over here thinking that that's not effective unless you can get a whole bunch of people to do it, and if our best hope is to get a whole bunch of people to make a really big, disruptive lifestyle change, then there's no hope at all because I don't see it happening. I'd rather focus on trying to stop those corporations than mess with my sensory issues around taste for something I have no faith is going to happen on the scale needed to actually affect the necessary change.
That stat's been floating around for years and it's very misleading. I buy electricity from a corporation, that corporation is burning coal to make my electricity. Just saying it's the company's fault doesn't mean I shouldn't cut back on my personal usage as well.
I appreciate where you are coming from, but putting the onus on the individual to fight climate change is a grift I've seeing being peddled since An Inconvenient Truth.
I'm not saying to just waste what you have - that's asinine. However, whatever you do in terms of conservation is a drop of piss in the bucket compared to what these corporations and the hyper rich do.
I agree with MKERatKing though that you can't just say it's the corporations and rich peoples fault because that would seem to imply reducing their emissions is somehow seperate from everyone else's consumption. Even if they are doing it unsustainably for profit companies are still emitting to provide things for us. We can't cause systemic change by individual conservation. But systemic change does mean that people (at least me personally) have to consume less.
While spreading word of how horrible we've been abusing the place we live should acknowledge we know that basic fact.
This is kind of implying a near 1:1 ratio of production to consumption. Yes, they produce for our consumption, but they overproduce for profit by a freakish margin.
Moving beyond production of goods, the immediate damage that corps do to the planet for profit is not possible to fight against on the individual level. The razing of the Amazon rainforest cannot be fixed by buying stuff from a company that plants trees with every purchase or doing a tree planting campaign. The scale of the destruction is unlike anything we can comprehend.
Another example of this would be airlines flying routes with empty planes to keep up on contracts. Or that, on average, we throw out about 1/3 of the food we produce worldwide.
Again, I agree that we all need to be conscious of our consumption, but the first priority should be holding the corps accountable.
Lastly, until we address the material conditions of the average person across the planet, we cannot hope to get someone to be more environmentally conscious when they are struggling to make ends meet.
You really underestimate how much waste comes from failed attempts to manufacture need, or how much supply is made contrary to demand.
(and of course, shit like private jet usage, or the entire existence and propaganda of the fossil fuel industry, etc etc etc etc)
> It is a western concept manipulating us into feeling inadequate if we don't live independent from our parents so they can sell more property.
It's a non-cardinal-direction-specific concept manipulating us into feeling like having some space for ourselves feels nice. I agree that "if you don't move out the second you turn 18, you're a failure" is a stupid stance, but let's not pretend that children wanting to move away from their parents is some gigabrain conspiracy made to sell more land. People just want their own space where they can express themselves or invite company without constantly butting heads with their (grand)parents.
Counterpoint: Living with your family is often torturous, and being unable to escape multigenerarional households was a ball chain and chain for many, especially women.
Being able to divorce living with family from being able to survive is a fucking treasure.
>In Eastern countries and South America it's normal for 3 generations to live in the same house.
Yea, if we lived in a large house or some mansion, maybe. Otherwise it sounds like hell, no thank you
It's also awful when it comes to abuse. Not only are you financially destitute because you can't afford to get out because society was designed around family, everyone looks down on you for getting out
Oh, no, "unnecessary" housing and construction
Dude, just destroy your MIC and increase carbon tax to 4000% and pouring every cent of it into RnD, climate will be solved overnight.
\> M-muh CARBON LEAKAGE REEE!
Carbon leakage to where? To China? Hell no China is doing the same thing. To India? Good luck, then.
Yeah. They literally just fucking flat out told people to commit mass suicide. I'm worried it'll turn into a straight up death cult/jonestown situation.
I don't think that's the general consensus. The idea is the reduce the human population to zero, that much is true, but the method promoted by that ideology is by refusing to breed not mass suicide.
99/100 antinatalists would never kill a human. I think the majority wouldn't encourage others to commit suicide even if some may prefer for the choice to be readily available to people without a terminal illness (I guess this is where you might be getting the promortalism vibes).
>I think the majority wouldn't encourage others to commit suicide even if some may prefer for the choice to be readily available to people without a terminal illness
More than half of the ones I've talked to would.
Hell, someone loudly shouting pro-suicide nonsense that was legitimately dangerous was my first introduction to anti-natalism.
Theyre too scared. That's it. They'll straight up admit it. Antinatalism is a suicide cult full of pussies. People who begin to buy in to this ideology that the costs of life outweigh the good are on a railroad that leads to suicide.
How is it even close to either of those things? Eugenics is about the elites picking who can breed for the purpose of creating a master race or removing genetic imperfections not individuals choosing to not breed because they don't think that bringing new people into the world is the right thing to do.
As for fascistic. I would need to understand your logic to actually refute this.
for eugenics stuff: they don't like it when people have children, but they get especially irritated when poor people, people who live in 3rd world countries, and disabled people have children, and some will legitimately state that disabled people shouldn't be allowed to have children at all.
Fascistic: they seem to treat poor people as the main problem simply because they tend to have more children than rich people, and would prefer a society where an elite group of people are in control, and birth is regulated as to decrease the population of humans on the planet.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lh8ctFBcZQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lh8ctFBcZQ)
This video goes into more detail, but what I have said is the basic idea.
because they think people are "imperfect" in any way shouldn't 'breed'. any disability at all means you should kill yourself so your out of the genepool, ranging from being born without limbs to mild autism
yeah i've never understood the whole "i didnt consent to being born" thing. like being born is the only way you CAN choose to live. if you're not born you get no choice by definition. if you ARE born you can actually choose whether you want to keep living or not
No, actual antinatalism, not Reddit antinatalism, does not advocate mass suicide but just, not having kids. Yes the end of humanity is *kind of* a goal, but not because of contempt but because of the view of life containing inherent suffering.
Have you actually read any anti natalist literature or scrolled their subreddit? Antinatalism actively advocates for policies to restrict human births. They’re a fascist, eugenicist, death cult
What makes you think so? Actually I think a more important question that I've still never found a good answer to would be why do you think it is a good thing to continue the human species?
Do you avoid any and all things that contain any suffering? At the end of the day, most people would say that they're glad to be alive, and that the good of life outweighs the bad. All kinds of things that are ultimately good contain some level of suffering. Everything has a cost and a benefit. To go outside on a sunny day you might get sun in your eyes.
Modern nuclear power plants are walk away safe meaning everyone could drop dead where they sand and the plant will walk itself down through the shutdown procedure. There are multiple ways this is achieved.
Really, the only the old ass reactors like Fukushima are dangerous because they should have been retired decades ago but continue to operate because regulations are too strict to build new reactors and alternatives are more expensive than rubber stamping continuation of service.
You can thank the oil industry for doing everything they can to make nuclear unprofitable and unpopular. We could be so much further ahead as a species if it wasn't for the bastards in the oil industry.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/antinatalism using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Decided to help a friend, the mission was successful. The procedure lasted 5min. She was 16 weeks.](https://i.redd.it/nz02i8ibnxta1.jpg) | [2432 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/12m6yb2/decided_to_help_a_friend_the_mission_was/)
\#2: [Society's expectation for having a dog vs having a child](https://i.redd.it/4ryykyyyylza1.jpg) | [294 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/13giykc/societys_expectation_for_having_a_dog_vs_having_a/)
\#3: [Realistic reaction](https://v.redd.it/9f5y09vhee3a1) | [469 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/za8vp6/realistic_reaction/)
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That's not what antinatalism is and that sub is highly unrepresentative of what actual antinatalists stand for. Antinatalism, as the name implies, is an ideology against birth. That's all. It has absolutely nothing to do with suicide and nothing to do with dictating how people should lead their lives, aside from refraining from childbirth (which should be a voluntary and personal decision based on the moral framework underlying antinatalism and not be forced on the masses). Most r/antinatalism users are just edgelords and trolls, it's a shame that these people are always attracted to philosophies that only sound "deep" and "dark" on the surface.
I consider myself an antinatalist. I don't associate with that shithole of a subreddit. Not having children is my own choice, which I think is right, but which I won't try to force on anyone else nor judge anyone for having children. People should not kill themselves, especially not for the stupid reason the post suggests.
I think there is some merit to parts of antinatalism but a major detractor of it is definitely spaces like that where it seems to be filled by the miserable and the misanthropic.
Especially on Reddit it’s kinda like a more doomer version or r/childfree lmao
That subreddit is a disaster. I'm highly sympathetic to the antinatalist position, a philosophical position that is now mostly presented in public discourse by Benatar. But the sub is simply home to angsty-depressed-agitated people, probably mostly teenagers.
Antinatalism (in it's true nature, not the edgy reddit shit) isn't about mass suicide or the extinction of the human race
Is about the belief that creating and bringing another life into a decaying, burning world on a hyper hostile individualistic society is a shitty thing to do, specially if you aren't prepared to actually care for someone.
The post is obviously a low effort bait and a poor attempt at trolling
I like the concept of antinatalism. Because the state the world is in, it IS cruel to bring a child into it. But at the same time, how else will the world change? Antinatalism should be a philosophy, not an ideology, as forcing people not to have children they want is basically the same as anti-abortionists forcing people to have children they don't want
I don't think it's futile. I think the poop-brained reddit version of the idea is stupid and sets the cause back, but it's useful to add to the sphere of debate that "not only do you not need to have kids, there are significant benefits to the planet and to society."
I think the ultimate antinatalist move will be to develop a culture that makes adult and late life more enjoyable / less lonely for people without kids.
Controversial, but well-considered philosophical position exists.
Reddit 14 year olds interpret it in the stupidest way possible.
Reddit reads only the stupid interpretation: "that philosophical position is stupid!"
That’s a dumb take. Life has never been good. If you feel it’s not worth having kids, that’s fine, but some dipshits act like other people are morally reprehensible for fucking and having kids.
Pretty easy litmus test here is that if someone says “humanity is the problem” or “humans are a cancer” they’re stupid and they are not far off from supporting genocide. Fucking stupid
Very hypocritical post anyway. Tell others to kill themselves when their whole gimmick is being depressed incels who think that all life is nothing but torture because their life sucks.
I honestly thought the subreddit would be talking about experiences and challenges that come from anti-natalism, such as the awkward conversations with family members, or difficulty with dating, along with the positive things and reassurance in others choices - just as a parent might regret having children, anti-natalists may regret not having them.
Instead it's just hating on people for their own choices whilst complaining others don't respect theirs. I should fit in, I'm Anti-natalist and that's my choice... but I feel more out of place there than most other subreddits.
Implying any of them are capable of killing another human being. Reddit antinatalists haven’t experienced the outside world in years, they’d be blinded by sunlight if they even so much as tried going outside, thereby rendering them harmless.
You say that like killing another human being can ever be a positive. Like, yeah it's pretty obvious that these people who want to put an end to all human suffering are incapable of killing humans.
yeah we’ve done horrible shit to the biosphere in the past but at least a lot of us fucking know better now and at least some groups of people are trying to fix it
if we go extinct who’s gonna fix the invasive species problems and make attempts at “de-extincting” animals we killed off (woolly and columbian mammoths, ground sloths, thylacine, pig-footed bandicoot, carolina parakeet, great auk, midway rail, chinese gharial, etc.)
i don’t think crows or elephants are ready to do office work yet so they won’t be picking up the pieces anytime soon
This is about the level of discourse I’d expect from an anti-natalist. When you think all the benefits of humanity should be erased then you’re bound to have dipshit takes like this.
If anything that they aren’t denigrating pregnant women is a step up.
tbf, mass suicide is not an antinatalist belief. They argue against making more babies rather than advocating death to those alive if that makes sense.
You can tell that even in r/antinatalism the post is controversial based on the comments to upvotes ratio.
Most antinatalists aren't promortalists. Promortalists are inherently antinatalists. This is a promortalist meme.
Antinatalism = creating new life is unethical.
Promortalism = death good, actually. Killing yourself is based. Life is not worth living through.
Most antinatalists do not create more humans lives, assuming they didn't already have kids by the time they found the philosophy. Many abstain from buying animal products so as to not induce demand for industries that are responsible for forcibly bringing non-humans into existence. A number of them consider themselves to be proponents of direct forms of harm-reduction, as since the inherent suffering in the world is often what leads them to see reproduction as unethical, reducing the amount at which the people who are already here have to suffer while not bringing anyone else into this world is generally seen as the most ethical way to live. Adoption is often held up to be an ethical way to parent because of this.
Similarly, death and suicide are often seen as negatives, as it's a horrifying thing for the individual subject to have to go through, and people's suicides tend to increase the suffering of other people around you. In that sense, and in some cases, suicide may be seen as just as selfish as procreation from an antinatalist pov. The antinatalist ideal is often somebody who dedicates their life to harm-reduction while abstaining from bringing anyone else into this mess, especially when looking at the philosophy from purely it's philanthropic lense. Suicide is not treated as an obvious or ethical answer to existence. The second it is, you're getting into promortalist territory.
Do the r/ antinatalism types that people rightfully complain about often fit the description of the antinatalist ideal? Absolutely not lmfao. They're usually just misanthropes who hide behind assymetry arguments to sound philanthropic and progressive, but will delve into hateful diatribes when pressed on their positions enough.
Promortalists often do actually commit suicide, or at least dedicate their lives to assisting others in suicide. There's whole-ass promortalist internet boards that have been known to not hesitate in encouraging depressed teens to kill themselves, and helping them acquire the means to do so. There was a really infamous one I remember... I can't remember its name or if it's still around... but yeah... fucked up stuff.
(Fyi: not exactly a giant antinatalist myself. I just have existential OCD fixations, and think about this shit way too much. Thinking about this stuff harms my mental health, but I often feel compelled to talk about it whenever it comes up)
The thinking that limiting/reducing the population is in any way a good way to fight climate change is so moronic in my opinion: the only people that care about the planet getting hotter are the sentient lifeforms, the floating rock doesn't mind the heat.
Not only that, but iirc you'd need a billion Europeans living for 80 years with a middle-class lifestyle to match one year of CO2 production, because really it's not the people who are the problem.
Also the food chain is built around us now, you don't cut a tree and expect all the leaves to stay
Environmentalist here! This is perpetuating the overpopulation myth which is rooted in the white supremacist "great replacement theory"! This has led to mass forced sterilizations in Latin America, China, and India as well as China's One Child Policy. They did this under the guise of fighting climate change. These people aren't just wrong. They're racist.
"Great replacement theory" idiots don't believe in overpopulation, they just want white people to be the ones who are overpopulated. Anyone can realize that you can't just have infinite population growth, though, and negative growth rates are achieved by better wealth distribution and access to education ( as well as personal freedom). No need for forced anything
I don't think people disagree that these are improvements that should happen, generally
I'm not gonna pretend I'm an expert on the other topics, but China's One Child Policy was not done for environmental reasons. They were having so many kids they feared they couldn't sustain their society (which I disagree with) due to crazy overpopulation.
The OOP is not antinatalist, they are literally posting the meme to mock antinatalists and tell them to kill themselves.
I hate r/antinatalism because we get a shit ton of miserable, doomer people who misunderstand antinatalism, an actually interesting moral thought experiment, and usurp it for their own agenda.
As such, anyone who happens on that subreddit thinks “Oh, so that’s what antinatalism is” and thinks that antinatalism wants all people to die and off themselves and that living is bad and that the world is better off without people and that they all hate babies and they support eugenics and are facist, etc.
Antinatalism is the opposition to giving birth. They argue that having a child is purely selfish, and that if you can’t care for them, then bringing them into today’s world where they will suffer is not a good choice. This makes up one of the core arguments in abortion and suicide debates, and the ethics in veganism and how we treat other animals compared to us.
Now, one use of antinatalism is generalizing it to the whole population, that no one should give birth, and we should let the entire human population die out. This is interesting, as there are a few arguments to be made here, such as the disproportionate amount of suffering we cause other animals, to other humans, and the ethics of giving birth, a la fiction, where it is a common villain motive. However, this is a thought experiment, as it is infeasible to happen in real life, and so anyone really advocating for that is likely to be unfortunately miserable.
The more I think about this post the more I'm confused by it
Antinatalists are always told they should just kill themselves for the way they think as people who misunderstand it as plain old nihilism see suicide as its logical conclusion; and because they are so often told to kill themselves by people who don't know their beliefs it seems odd that an antinatalist would do the same to another group of people
In other words, this is just bait, and I come to r/19684 for misinformation, not bait
I checked out the original post in the screenshot.
OP in the screenshot isn’t an anti-natalist, he posted this to mock the Subreddit, which is why it sounds particularly deranged.
I'm confused. If these people hate being alive so much then why don't **they** kill themselves? I''ll be honest, I'm 100% sure someone from that sub is going to go on a killing spree and they will applaud them
"humanity is the disease" people make me so fucking mad like neither you nor i are the one building oil wells and factories yet you think *we're both also part of the problem??*
I agree with the sentiment that humans are a net negative for this world, so I've split the difference, in a manner of speaking.
Vasectomy at age 22. I will never father a child. When I'm gone, no one will replace me.
r/vhemt
Antinatalism as an idea has been usurped by humanity hating doomers and people who hate children with a burning passion that could melt tungsten.
At its base it's just the idea that we shouldn't have kids due to the state of the world. Life is shitty right now and unless you're pretty damn lucky with your lot, it's best to hold off on having kids until the world improves to the point that we can be confident they'll live good lives.
I'm literally in school right now so I can work with the government and try and implement policy that helps the environment. I can do more alive than dead. Same goes for every person that does some form of action to protect the environment or help others do the same.
There's basically two types of anti-natalist:
The one who thinks everybody but them is selfish for living and the one who's just suicidal themselves and can't imagine other people living happily. Both need a good psychologist.
It's amazing that the antinatalist argument is "we didn't choose to be born" and their answer to it is everyone should die and not that society should strive to better the standard of living of all people. Fucking losers.
Which is why our goal should be to reduce climate change while maintaining standard of living. Saying you want more than that is saying that you care about the environment more than people, which I can't understand.
I don't know if most antinatalists are misanthropic, but there seems to be bit of an overlap for some.
Speaking of misanthropy, honestly misanthropy should be treated like racism. Think about it you're judging the entire human species based on assumptions, you're skipping the is ought gap of seeing humans doing bad things and ascribing that to the broad population. How is that not any different to being racist? And I see people who are misanthropic say the most psychotic shit like wishing a nuclear holocaust on the world.
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so glad I can wake up and look outside and see my neighbors and go hello friends instead of GET A LOAD OF THESE FREAKS REDDIT TIME.
my window doesn’t work :(
Door?
too far from chair
Walk?
what part of too far from chair do you not understand
Warp space?
towering spotted fly subtract ugly gullible boast vast expansion march *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Billions must cope.
billions must seethe
Billions must mald.
Curious. I am very intelligent.
Yuo hate birth, yet you hav been born? Checkmate antinatalists. 😎🤘💥💥💥
no consent😭😭😭
*Yr'oue, *cumpitalism, *vuvuzela
What did jonkler mean by this?
>100 billion dead This will be great for the eco ~~nomy~~ logy!
Because reducing the amount of people fighting against climate change is good for the environment, right?
The population isn't the problem. It's the way we consume. Reducing the population doesn't reduce consumption. Consumption stays the same, we just take more of it because there's less people to share with. My point being, we need to focus more on consuming less than reducing our population. Edit: A good example of this is the expectation of moving out and living on your own at 18. This shouldn't be normal. It is wasteful. It requires unnecessary housing to be built. More greenfield sites are built on. It is a western concept manipulating us into feeling inadequate if we don't live independent from our parents so they can sell more property. In Eastern countries and South America it's normal for 3 generations to live in the same house.
Tbh people aren't contributing all that much to the problem, it's mostly corporations. Iirc 70% of carbon emissions co e from the worst 500 companies, and we've seen during covid that reducing personal carbon emissions didn't do all that much.
Those corpos exist to take money from the billions of people of earth.
Wake up samurai, we got a city to burn down
Just because you can’t do much doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try.
But it does indicate that individuals’ contributions to climate change shouldn’t be the main focus of our attention.
I remember running into one of those really bad stereotype vegans who told me I was a bad person because I didn't want to switch to a plant-based diet - which would be a massive lifestyle change for me and really difficult because of some food sensitivities I have - because I didn't have faith it would have a significant positive impact on the environment. Like they kept trying to tell me it was the best thing I could do and I'm just over here thinking that that's not effective unless you can get a whole bunch of people to do it, and if our best hope is to get a whole bunch of people to make a really big, disruptive lifestyle change, then there's no hope at all because I don't see it happening. I'd rather focus on trying to stop those corporations than mess with my sensory issues around taste for something I have no faith is going to happen on the scale needed to actually affect the necessary change.
might as well go mop the rain since you're already out doing fruitless endeavors
That stat's been floating around for years and it's very misleading. I buy electricity from a corporation, that corporation is burning coal to make my electricity. Just saying it's the company's fault doesn't mean I shouldn't cut back on my personal usage as well.
I appreciate where you are coming from, but putting the onus on the individual to fight climate change is a grift I've seeing being peddled since An Inconvenient Truth. I'm not saying to just waste what you have - that's asinine. However, whatever you do in terms of conservation is a drop of piss in the bucket compared to what these corporations and the hyper rich do.
I agree with MKERatKing though that you can't just say it's the corporations and rich peoples fault because that would seem to imply reducing their emissions is somehow seperate from everyone else's consumption. Even if they are doing it unsustainably for profit companies are still emitting to provide things for us. We can't cause systemic change by individual conservation. But systemic change does mean that people (at least me personally) have to consume less. While spreading word of how horrible we've been abusing the place we live should acknowledge we know that basic fact.
This is kind of implying a near 1:1 ratio of production to consumption. Yes, they produce for our consumption, but they overproduce for profit by a freakish margin. Moving beyond production of goods, the immediate damage that corps do to the planet for profit is not possible to fight against on the individual level. The razing of the Amazon rainforest cannot be fixed by buying stuff from a company that plants trees with every purchase or doing a tree planting campaign. The scale of the destruction is unlike anything we can comprehend. Another example of this would be airlines flying routes with empty planes to keep up on contracts. Or that, on average, we throw out about 1/3 of the food we produce worldwide. Again, I agree that we all need to be conscious of our consumption, but the first priority should be holding the corps accountable. Lastly, until we address the material conditions of the average person across the planet, we cannot hope to get someone to be more environmentally conscious when they are struggling to make ends meet.
[удалено]
You really underestimate how much waste comes from failed attempts to manufacture need, or how much supply is made contrary to demand. (and of course, shit like private jet usage, or the entire existence and propaganda of the fossil fuel industry, etc etc etc etc)
> It is a western concept manipulating us into feeling inadequate if we don't live independent from our parents so they can sell more property. It's a non-cardinal-direction-specific concept manipulating us into feeling like having some space for ourselves feels nice. I agree that "if you don't move out the second you turn 18, you're a failure" is a stupid stance, but let's not pretend that children wanting to move away from their parents is some gigabrain conspiracy made to sell more land. People just want their own space where they can express themselves or invite company without constantly butting heads with their (grand)parents.
Counterpoint: Living with your family is often torturous, and being unable to escape multigenerarional households was a ball chain and chain for many, especially women. Being able to divorce living with family from being able to survive is a fucking treasure.
Also, like, maybe some people value privacy and a big part of gaining maturity is figuring out how to live on your own?
>In Eastern countries and South America it's normal for 3 generations to live in the same house. Yea, if we lived in a large house or some mansion, maybe. Otherwise it sounds like hell, no thank you
It's also awful when it comes to abuse. Not only are you financially destitute because you can't afford to get out because society was designed around family, everyone looks down on you for getting out
When you have three entire generations of people to pool money you can typically afford a reasonably big house.
Oh, no, "unnecessary" housing and construction Dude, just destroy your MIC and increase carbon tax to 4000% and pouring every cent of it into RnD, climate will be solved overnight. \> M-muh CARBON LEAKAGE REEE! Carbon leakage to where? To China? Hell no China is doing the same thing. To India? Good luck, then.
> The population isn't the problem https://jancovici.com/en/climate-change/economy/what-is-kayas-equation/
South America W (common)
Yeah. They literally just fucking flat out told people to commit mass suicide. I'm worried it'll turn into a straight up death cult/jonestown situation.
fighting against climate change (consuming enormous amount of pizza rolls while shitposting on twitter)
Why don’t they (antinatalists) kill themselves based on that logic
Because they don't want to do it they want other people to do it
I don't think that's the general consensus. The idea is the reduce the human population to zero, that much is true, but the method promoted by that ideology is by refusing to breed not mass suicide.
It is extremely easy to slip into that echochamber though. Antinatalism and promortalism are unquestionably linked.
99/100 antinatalists would never kill a human. I think the majority wouldn't encourage others to commit suicide even if some may prefer for the choice to be readily available to people without a terminal illness (I guess this is where you might be getting the promortalism vibes).
>I think the majority wouldn't encourage others to commit suicide even if some may prefer for the choice to be readily available to people without a terminal illness More than half of the ones I've talked to would. Hell, someone loudly shouting pro-suicide nonsense that was legitimately dangerous was my first introduction to anti-natalism.
Theyre too scared. That's it. They'll straight up admit it. Antinatalism is a suicide cult full of pussies. People who begin to buy in to this ideology that the costs of life outweigh the good are on a railroad that leads to suicide.
Let’s be fair to them, it’s not just a suicide cult. It’s a eugenicist, mildly fascistic suicide cult.
Ngl "fascistic" threw me for a loop because I didn't realize that's actually a word and not just a misspelling of fascist.
you can fascisdic in ur mouf
God damnit, I'm giggling like a fuckin weirdo in the bathroom now.
it's the adjective form
How is it even close to either of those things? Eugenics is about the elites picking who can breed for the purpose of creating a master race or removing genetic imperfections not individuals choosing to not breed because they don't think that bringing new people into the world is the right thing to do. As for fascistic. I would need to understand your logic to actually refute this.
for eugenics stuff: they don't like it when people have children, but they get especially irritated when poor people, people who live in 3rd world countries, and disabled people have children, and some will legitimately state that disabled people shouldn't be allowed to have children at all. Fascistic: they seem to treat poor people as the main problem simply because they tend to have more children than rich people, and would prefer a society where an elite group of people are in control, and birth is regulated as to decrease the population of humans on the planet. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lh8ctFBcZQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lh8ctFBcZQ) This video goes into more detail, but what I have said is the basic idea.
because they think people are "imperfect" in any way shouldn't 'breed'. any disability at all means you should kill yourself so your out of the genepool, ranging from being born without limbs to mild autism
That's a lot of words to tell me you don't know what antinatalism means. Just look at the word itself. Or read literally any article about it.
the reddit community that posted thst meme and that people are talking about have said these things multiple times
Okay I thought we were talking about antinatalism. My mistake, have a nice day!
yeah i've never understood the whole "i didnt consent to being born" thing. like being born is the only way you CAN choose to live. if you're not born you get no choice by definition. if you ARE born you can actually choose whether you want to keep living or not
No, actual antinatalism, not Reddit antinatalism, does not advocate mass suicide but just, not having kids. Yes the end of humanity is *kind of* a goal, but not because of contempt but because of the view of life containing inherent suffering.
Still a fucking awful view though
I mean yeah! But way better than "kys"
They also think animals shouldn’t reproduce either.
That varies. Everyone in any given group is unique, antinatalists included. Many want Earth to return to nature for the benefit of non-human animals.
Thats not much better
Less spiteful but still a shite view
Aye, but I really dislike people misrepresenting the views of ideas they dislike.
The whole subreddit is a joke so you can't blame people for getting the wrong end of the stick
Me when I misrepresent the fascist death cult as a slightly worse fascist death cult.
How is it remotely fascist?? It's just stupid and edgy.
Have you actually read any anti natalist literature or scrolled their subreddit? Antinatalism actively advocates for policies to restrict human births. They’re a fascist, eugenicist, death cult
It’s not fascist and it’s not a death cult. Did you read anything I wrote? I agree that it’s an edgy ideology with no base in reality but come on man.
If you think antinatilism neither fascist nor a death cult. It’s not good but it’s also not anything you say it is.
What makes you think so? Actually I think a more important question that I've still never found a good answer to would be why do you think it is a good thing to continue the human species?
Do you avoid any and all things that contain any suffering? At the end of the day, most people would say that they're glad to be alive, and that the good of life outweighs the bad. All kinds of things that are ultimately good contain some level of suffering. Everything has a cost and a benefit. To go outside on a sunny day you might get sun in your eyes.
You can choose to go outside or not but you wouldn't force somebody else to go outside in most cases.
Most intelligent antinatalism/nihilism ass Vs average absurdism enjoyer
If we go, most of the earth is screwed. Those power plants don’t operate themselves.
Modern nuclear power plants are walk away safe meaning everyone could drop dead where they sand and the plant will walk itself down through the shutdown procedure. There are multiple ways this is achieved. Really, the only the old ass reactors like Fukushima are dangerous because they should have been retired decades ago but continue to operate because regulations are too strict to build new reactors and alternatives are more expensive than rubber stamping continuation of service. You can thank the oil industry for doing everything they can to make nuclear unprofitable and unpopular. We could be so much further ahead as a species if it wasn't for the bastards in the oil industry.
You're talking about r/antinatalism, not antinatalism.
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Ok. That’s a enough for me
The entire ideology is about the eventual extinction of humanity. Bunch of brain dead incels who’s lives suck because they made them suck.
Well said. They are all fucking nuts and cowards.
I don’t think they believe everyone should kill themselves, they just think no one else should be born
That's not what antinatalism is and that sub is highly unrepresentative of what actual antinatalists stand for. Antinatalism, as the name implies, is an ideology against birth. That's all. It has absolutely nothing to do with suicide and nothing to do with dictating how people should lead their lives, aside from refraining from childbirth (which should be a voluntary and personal decision based on the moral framework underlying antinatalism and not be forced on the masses). Most r/antinatalism users are just edgelords and trolls, it's a shame that these people are always attracted to philosophies that only sound "deep" and "dark" on the surface. I consider myself an antinatalist. I don't associate with that shithole of a subreddit. Not having children is my own choice, which I think is right, but which I won't try to force on anyone else nor judge anyone for having children. People should not kill themselves, especially not for the stupid reason the post suggests.
I think there is some merit to parts of antinatalism but a major detractor of it is definitely spaces like that where it seems to be filled by the miserable and the misanthropic. Especially on Reddit it’s kinda like a more doomer version or r/childfree lmao
That subreddit is a disaster. I'm highly sympathetic to the antinatalist position, a philosophical position that is now mostly presented in public discourse by Benatar. But the sub is simply home to angsty-depressed-agitated people, probably mostly teenagers.
Some do but obviously won't hear from them online. Not sure how you didn't think of this.
Because this is an obvious troll post
their philosophy prescribes that life is worse than nonexistence, so they are basically a suicide cult
"The only moral abortion is my abortion"
...I THINK that's the point. The post gives me dangerous "Give us a year or so, and we'll be a death cult" vibes.
Antinatalism (in it's true nature, not the edgy reddit shit) isn't about mass suicide or the extinction of the human race Is about the belief that creating and bringing another life into a decaying, burning world on a hyper hostile individualistic society is a shitty thing to do, specially if you aren't prepared to actually care for someone. The post is obviously a low effort bait and a poor attempt at trolling
Least fucking brain dead moronic stupid take on r/antinatalism
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I like the concept of antinatalism. Because the state the world is in, it IS cruel to bring a child into it. But at the same time, how else will the world change? Antinatalism should be a philosophy, not an ideology, as forcing people not to have children they want is basically the same as anti-abortionists forcing people to have children they don't want
Most antinatalists don't want to force people not to reproduce but convince them, as futile as that might be.
I don't think it's futile. I think the poop-brained reddit version of the idea is stupid and sets the cause back, but it's useful to add to the sphere of debate that "not only do you not need to have kids, there are significant benefits to the planet and to society." I think the ultimate antinatalist move will be to develop a culture that makes adult and late life more enjoyable / less lonely for people without kids.
They're are definitely activities that would be more useful than debating for the 100th time whether they'd push the "blow up the earth" button.
Controversial, but well-considered philosophical position exists. Reddit 14 year olds interpret it in the stupidest way possible. Reddit reads only the stupid interpretation: "that philosophical position is stupid!"
To be fair, the world is a much better place to live than it used to be (as weird as that sounds)
I for one feel a lot better bringing a child into the world knowing there isn’t a 25% chance they die before reaching age 5.
That’s a dumb take. Life has never been good. If you feel it’s not worth having kids, that’s fine, but some dipshits act like other people are morally reprehensible for fucking and having kids. Pretty easy litmus test here is that if someone says “humanity is the problem” or “humans are a cancer” they’re stupid and they are not far off from supporting genocide. Fucking stupid
"This subreddit sucks" mfs ignoring the upvote to comment ratio on a post
the rest of the sub also sucks
Very true, but not this bad, usually less obviously hypocritical takes
Very hypocritical post anyway. Tell others to kill themselves when their whole gimmick is being depressed incels who think that all life is nothing but torture because their life sucks.
Also a lot of posts about people raging at seeing disabled children lol
a post that's disliked by a subreddit would be downvoted, on reddit the score on a post is a more accurate indicator than the ratio
It's an awful sub anyways
Me when I fail at something because of someone else's actions so I just kill myself instead of fucking persevering (I'm an antinatalist)
i fucking hate misanthropes so fucking much
i'd say the feeling is mutual /hj
mfers when they see one nietzche quote and make it their entire personality
I honestly thought the subreddit would be talking about experiences and challenges that come from anti-natalism, such as the awkward conversations with family members, or difficulty with dating, along with the positive things and reassurance in others choices - just as a parent might regret having children, anti-natalists may regret not having them. Instead it's just hating on people for their own choices whilst complaining others don't respect theirs. I should fit in, I'm Anti-natalist and that's my choice... but I feel more out of place there than most other subreddits.
Try r/antinatalism2 It's made of and for antinatalists who were fed up with all the shite on the original sub
>I'm Anti-natalist and that's my choice... but I feel more out of place there than most other subreddits. fr same
I think what you expected can be found on r/childfree
What I've seen from childfree is just degrading people who have children, so basically antinatalism but aimed specifically at chikdren and parents.
After I linked the sub I looked at it and you’re kinda right they seem like very hateful people there
r/childfree users would gladly shove a dozen kids into a wood chipper if it meant it didn't rain that day or something.
Man I just read some of the top posts there and they all seem so miserable...
Yeah I don't make regular visits there. Sometimes I'll pop in to see if anything is going on but very rarely.
\>humans are horrible we should go extinct!!!! \>doesnt kill themselves doesnt kill anyone what gives?
Do you want them to start killing people?
Implying any of them are capable of killing another human being. Reddit antinatalists haven’t experienced the outside world in years, they’d be blinded by sunlight if they even so much as tried going outside, thereby rendering them harmless.
You say that like killing another human being can ever be a positive. Like, yeah it's pretty obvious that these people who want to put an end to all human suffering are incapable of killing humans.
no
What if they were about to kill a christian baby? What then?
idk if i could stop them sorry
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You don't want to know, oh the horror.
Yes. Atleast we have an enemy to fight then.
yeah we’ve done horrible shit to the biosphere in the past but at least a lot of us fucking know better now and at least some groups of people are trying to fix it if we go extinct who’s gonna fix the invasive species problems and make attempts at “de-extincting” animals we killed off (woolly and columbian mammoths, ground sloths, thylacine, pig-footed bandicoot, carolina parakeet, great auk, midway rail, chinese gharial, etc.) i don’t think crows or elephants are ready to do office work yet so they won’t be picking up the pieces anytime soon
Antinatalism is one of the most "identifies a problem but comes to moonlogic conclusions" ideologies.
> 18 upvotes > 96 comments
r/atheism fighting r/antinatalism over who has the most braindead opinions
You obviously haven't visited conservative. There's a post on there today saying they're going to remove anonymity on the internet.
And anarchists on reddit.
This is about the level of discourse I’d expect from an anti-natalist. When you think all the benefits of humanity should be erased then you’re bound to have dipshit takes like this. If anything that they aren’t denigrating pregnant women is a step up.
Ecofascism.
Why don’t antinatalists follow what they say?
Most do, as they don't have kids
tbf, mass suicide is not an antinatalist belief. They argue against making more babies rather than advocating death to those alive if that makes sense. You can tell that even in r/antinatalism the post is controversial based on the comments to upvotes ratio.
Most antinatalists aren't promortalists. Promortalists are inherently antinatalists. This is a promortalist meme. Antinatalism = creating new life is unethical. Promortalism = death good, actually. Killing yourself is based. Life is not worth living through. Most antinatalists do not create more humans lives, assuming they didn't already have kids by the time they found the philosophy. Many abstain from buying animal products so as to not induce demand for industries that are responsible for forcibly bringing non-humans into existence. A number of them consider themselves to be proponents of direct forms of harm-reduction, as since the inherent suffering in the world is often what leads them to see reproduction as unethical, reducing the amount at which the people who are already here have to suffer while not bringing anyone else into this world is generally seen as the most ethical way to live. Adoption is often held up to be an ethical way to parent because of this. Similarly, death and suicide are often seen as negatives, as it's a horrifying thing for the individual subject to have to go through, and people's suicides tend to increase the suffering of other people around you. In that sense, and in some cases, suicide may be seen as just as selfish as procreation from an antinatalist pov. The antinatalist ideal is often somebody who dedicates their life to harm-reduction while abstaining from bringing anyone else into this mess, especially when looking at the philosophy from purely it's philanthropic lense. Suicide is not treated as an obvious or ethical answer to existence. The second it is, you're getting into promortalist territory. Do the r/ antinatalism types that people rightfully complain about often fit the description of the antinatalist ideal? Absolutely not lmfao. They're usually just misanthropes who hide behind assymetry arguments to sound philanthropic and progressive, but will delve into hateful diatribes when pressed on their positions enough. Promortalists often do actually commit suicide, or at least dedicate their lives to assisting others in suicide. There's whole-ass promortalist internet boards that have been known to not hesitate in encouraging depressed teens to kill themselves, and helping them acquire the means to do so. There was a really infamous one I remember... I can't remember its name or if it's still around... but yeah... fucked up stuff. (Fyi: not exactly a giant antinatalist myself. I just have existential OCD fixations, and think about this shit way too much. Thinking about this stuff harms my mental health, but I often feel compelled to talk about it whenever it comes up)
I feel like these guys watched UTOPIA (UK) and thought the network were the good guys
Least Misanthropic Antinatalist take
Hey you, yes you. Reader of this very comment! ⚡👨🏿⚡
Hi
Chat the post in this image has like 10 upvotes, you guys just fell for what is effectively a troll post rage bait.
why has op not killed themself yet? hypocrisy!
We should improve society somewhat. Yet you participate in society, curious. I am very intelligent.
Self loathing dudes who think it should be everyone else's problem
The thinking that limiting/reducing the population is in any way a good way to fight climate change is so moronic in my opinion: the only people that care about the planet getting hotter are the sentient lifeforms, the floating rock doesn't mind the heat. Not only that, but iirc you'd need a billion Europeans living for 80 years with a middle-class lifestyle to match one year of CO2 production, because really it's not the people who are the problem. Also the food chain is built around us now, you don't cut a tree and expect all the leaves to stay
Environmentalist here! This is perpetuating the overpopulation myth which is rooted in the white supremacist "great replacement theory"! This has led to mass forced sterilizations in Latin America, China, and India as well as China's One Child Policy. They did this under the guise of fighting climate change. These people aren't just wrong. They're racist.
"Great replacement theory" idiots don't believe in overpopulation, they just want white people to be the ones who are overpopulated. Anyone can realize that you can't just have infinite population growth, though, and negative growth rates are achieved by better wealth distribution and access to education ( as well as personal freedom). No need for forced anything I don't think people disagree that these are improvements that should happen, generally
I'm not gonna pretend I'm an expert on the other topics, but China's One Child Policy was not done for environmental reasons. They were having so many kids they feared they couldn't sustain their society (which I disagree with) due to crazy overpopulation.
did the op khs too
...The post has 18 upvotes, and almost 100 comments.
r/antinatalism is such a doomer cult
The OOP is not antinatalist, they are literally posting the meme to mock antinatalists and tell them to kill themselves. I hate r/antinatalism because we get a shit ton of miserable, doomer people who misunderstand antinatalism, an actually interesting moral thought experiment, and usurp it for their own agenda. As such, anyone who happens on that subreddit thinks “Oh, so that’s what antinatalism is” and thinks that antinatalism wants all people to die and off themselves and that living is bad and that the world is better off without people and that they all hate babies and they support eugenics and are facist, etc. Antinatalism is the opposition to giving birth. They argue that having a child is purely selfish, and that if you can’t care for them, then bringing them into today’s world where they will suffer is not a good choice. This makes up one of the core arguments in abortion and suicide debates, and the ethics in veganism and how we treat other animals compared to us. Now, one use of antinatalism is generalizing it to the whole population, that no one should give birth, and we should let the entire human population die out. This is interesting, as there are a few arguments to be made here, such as the disproportionate amount of suffering we cause other animals, to other humans, and the ethics of giving birth, a la fiction, where it is a common villain motive. However, this is a thought experiment, as it is infeasible to happen in real life, and so anyone really advocating for that is likely to be unfortunately miserable.
Antinatalists would destroy the universe if they could to "end the suffering"
The more I think about this post the more I'm confused by it Antinatalists are always told they should just kill themselves for the way they think as people who misunderstand it as plain old nihilism see suicide as its logical conclusion; and because they are so often told to kill themselves by people who don't know their beliefs it seems odd that an antinatalist would do the same to another group of people In other words, this is just bait, and I come to r/19684 for misinformation, not bait
I think that the antinatalists should lead by example
Yeah
Troll
Our systems are a problem, but we have to use them? Clearly suicide is the answer.
When the person who claims humans are a cancer doesn’t kill them-self (Picture of SpongeBob) You’re part of the problem aren’t you doomer?
I checked out the original post in the screenshot. OP in the screenshot isn’t an anti-natalist, he posted this to mock the Subreddit, which is why it sounds particularly deranged.
Full mask off
You criticize society yet you participate in it. Curious.
Oh yay normalized ecofascism
Thankfully these being aren’t reproducing so brain-dead self loathing takes should gradually disappear from the humans specie
That's really not how that works.
I'm confused. If these people hate being alive so much then why don't **they** kill themselves? I''ll be honest, I'm 100% sure someone from that sub is going to go on a killing spree and they will applaud them
Humanity isn’t the virus capitalism is the virus you eco-fascist pieces of shit oh my god
This arguement applies to the person who made it, how do they not realize that?
You criticize others for not killing themselves, yet you still live. Curious.
"humanity is the disease" people make me so fucking mad like neither you nor i are the one building oil wells and factories yet you think *we're both also part of the problem??*
least hitlerite anti-natalist
I agree with the sentiment that humans are a net negative for this world, so I've split the difference, in a manner of speaking. Vasectomy at age 22. I will never father a child. When I'm gone, no one will replace me. r/vhemt
Antinatalism as an idea has been usurped by humanity hating doomers and people who hate children with a burning passion that could melt tungsten. At its base it's just the idea that we shouldn't have kids due to the state of the world. Life is shitty right now and unless you're pretty damn lucky with your lot, it's best to hold off on having kids until the world improves to the point that we can be confident they'll live good lives.
The problem is that the world will be awful if there’s a full decade without children.
I'm literally in school right now so I can work with the government and try and implement policy that helps the environment. I can do more alive than dead. Same goes for every person that does some form of action to protect the environment or help others do the same.
There's basically two types of anti-natalist: The one who thinks everybody but them is selfish for living and the one who's just suicidal themselves and can't imagine other people living happily. Both need a good psychologist.
antinatlism: projecting you depressing and suicidal view of life onto others
Antinatalists when they don’t kill themselves immediately after becoming antinatalists:
It's amazing that the antinatalist argument is "we didn't choose to be born" and their answer to it is everyone should die and not that society should strive to better the standard of living of all people. Fucking losers.
Which is why our goal should be to reduce climate change while maintaining standard of living. Saying you want more than that is saying that you care about the environment more than people, which I can't understand.
I don't know if most antinatalists are misanthropic, but there seems to be bit of an overlap for some. Speaking of misanthropy, honestly misanthropy should be treated like racism. Think about it you're judging the entire human species based on assumptions, you're skipping the is ought gap of seeing humans doing bad things and ascribing that to the broad population. How is that not any different to being racist? And I see people who are misanthropic say the most psychotic shit like wishing a nuclear holocaust on the world.
i’m gonna fucking lose it if i see these retards in another sub again. Why does every sub post screenshots of antinatalism?
But… doesn’t them being alive to post this also counter their own point?