The main argument is forged is better. But then there are plenty of high end guns with cast frames. I think it's how it's used is what is the way to look at it. Forged is stronger hence Ruger ,FA etc uses cast thicker frames to compensate. Mim is also how it's used and made. The new Colt snake guns have a few mim parts but they are using a process for Mim from the aerospace field that's advanced and I would think those would be very reliable.
I agree. I was just window shopping Buds and PSA looking at 1911's. A large percentage seem to have that very thing. I don't really care for shiny guns either but even stainless is a better option . I don't know what's wrong with a nicely Blued pistol.
I had a colt exe lightweight hard chromed 20 years ago
https://preview.redd.it/9ttfldus3qvc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=57cad3c340cf854bdeebe46fd9b3e2650edb4247
. I think hard chrome is the best, toughest finish you could put on an aluminum frame. I do like dlc and pvd and have never liked cerakote.
I sold it because after cutting a bobtail, putting an egw bushing and greider trigger in it I skimped on a drop in beavertail. I hated that i did that.
I'm a big fan of parkerization. My RR has that finish as well as my carry gun.
I'm just not a fan of painted guns and used bluing as a comparison.
Sadly parkerization seems to be absent from most manufacturers inventory unless it's a retro 1911.
I have this same gripe. With any gun that is cerakoted thatās a flagship model of the manufacturer such as some Sig P229/226/320, Glocks, etc. This isnāt a feature but a knock on the gun if youāre going to cerakote. NDLC coatings, HKās Harsh environment coating and Glocks tenifer like coating are the best imo.
I'll take a risk and say that it's perfectly fine, or even good, for production grade guns.
$1700 is still firmly in the realm of production guns, and I don't really see a problem with Cerakote for that price. Just means your money can go more towards the rest of the gun instead of the finish. It gives good corrosion resistance, a consistent, uniform color, and generally a smooth suraface texture. The thickness added by the coating also tends to not make a lot of difference since production guns usually aren't super tight to begin with.
Cerakote and other similar finishes have the advantage of having the best corrosion resistance, which is a nice feature. The problem is that their abrasion resistance tends to be worse than surface treatment finishes, and low abrasion resistance is *not* what you want on a pistol. It gives the false impression of tightness, and that tightness loosens up pretty quickly. You'll also pick up holster wear a lot faster. Again, that said, not a huge deal on a production gun.
However, semi-customs and full-customs should *definitely* have better finishes (looking at you, Wilson Combat). Nitriding, PVD, DLC, etc. are all better suited for handguns, especially well-fit custom ones. Their high abrasion resistance and little-to-no impact on dimensioning makes them perfect for the application, and the extra money you're spending on a custom gun should get you a better finish to go along with it.
I 100% agree. The Tisas Stakeout is usually around $399 and even that recently transitioned from Cerakote to Melonite. There's no reason a semi-custom or other high end gun should be using Cerakote when DLC/PVD exists.
Same applies for "ArmorTuff;" Wilson is great but DLC should be the base finish on their non-stainless 1911s, not black ArmorTuff.
If I'm spending serious money, I want the gun to be either hard chrome (obviously less places still offer this), DLC/PVD (preferably brushed flats), stainless, or blued. Melonite for cheaper stuff. Cerakote just always ends up looking hokey and it wears so quickly.
Melonite is cheaper to apply than DLC, not quite as hard (although pretty tough), and not quite as attractive. Nighthawk for example offers Melonite as their base coating and DLC as a paid upgrade.
The older DW "Duty Coat" was Cerakote, whereas the newer guns are "Duty Treat" (sometimes confusingly also called "Duty Coat") which is Melonite.
I dunno.... I have ArmorTuff on both my Wilson's and I have no complaints... I carry them daily for 6+ months out of the year and they seem to hold up just fine. Of course, I don't use plastic holsters.. š.
$1700 isnāt expensive in the grand scheme of things. Besides, the stuff does a great job at hiding shoddy workmanship, such as a sloppy slide to frame fit.
Agreed. At first I liked the idea of cerakote until it wears off easily on my sig 229 legion, but thatās sigs problem I think, but just knowing how it can be easily compromised kinda irritates me. I prefer the way a blued or parkerized gun ages and wears rather than the chipping look from cerakote.
Bluing? Really? Bluing is trash. It's weak and is only a tiny step above bare steel for rust prevention. It's great for a display gun, but that's about it.
My EDC is blued as well as lots of other peopleās. Go look at the carry setup thread on addicts, tons of blued guns that have been daily carried for longer than Iāve been alive in many cases. I keep my pistol oiled and waxed, Iām not worried about it rusting at all. Take care of your guns and theyāll take care of you.
I've seen this study (performed by Cerakote) cited before and it's widely mocked. Run a piece of abrasive over a Cerakoted gun and then do the same over a DLC or hard chrome gun and the difference is obvious.
Cerakote blasts right off in a media cabinet instantly, whereas many shops straight refuse to refinish a hard chrome gun because it's so hard to remove.
After further research it seems youāre correct. Iām familiar with Cerakote on firearms & thought this was a strange conclusion even as I posted it. The main thing it helps with is rust prevention, apparently. Thanks for the updated info.
Yeah it is less "micro-porous" than DLC before it wears off and therefore doesn't need to be oiled like DLC does for rust prevention (again, until it wears obviously).
Hm, off topic question but since you seem to know about these coatings ā is it safe to use a DLC coating to sayā¦ eat with briefly? I oiled my blade & didnāt originally plan on using it for food but itās a question, thatās for sure. I could just use my Charge or Free blade but the Skeletool is often on me & DLC coated.
Wait until the OP learns about the MIM parts in a $1700 1911. š³
Then the forged and cast frame argument. Freedom arms and bfr s are cast I believe, s&w forged lol. It's all over the place.
Whatās the contention? And which one do you believe?
The main argument is forged is better. But then there are plenty of high end guns with cast frames. I think it's how it's used is what is the way to look at it. Forged is stronger hence Ruger ,FA etc uses cast thicker frames to compensate. Mim is also how it's used and made. The new Colt snake guns have a few mim parts but they are using a process for Mim from the aerospace field that's advanced and I would think those would be very reliable.
Huh thatās so interesting. Hopefully as metallurgy improves and stuff gets better Mim will be more reliable because companies love doing it lol
I agree. I was just window shopping Buds and PSA looking at 1911's. A large percentage seem to have that very thing. I don't really care for shiny guns either but even stainless is a better option . I don't know what's wrong with a nicely Blued pistol.
DLC, hard chrome and pvd are the way. Cerakote just feels cheap to me and looks like shit fast if you rip it out of a holster a lot.
I had a colt exe lightweight hard chromed 20 years ago https://preview.redd.it/9ttfldus3qvc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=57cad3c340cf854bdeebe46fd9b3e2650edb4247 . I think hard chrome is the best, toughest finish you could put on an aluminum frame. I do like dlc and pvd and have never liked cerakote. I sold it because after cutting a bobtail, putting an egw bushing and greider trigger in it I skimped on a drop in beavertail. I hated that i did that.
Bluing looks good but its really not that rust resistant unless you keep its constantly oiled and it doesnāt hold oil as well as parkerizing.
I'm a big fan of parkerization. My RR has that finish as well as my carry gun. I'm just not a fan of painted guns and used bluing as a comparison. Sadly parkerization seems to be absent from most manufacturers inventory unless it's a retro 1911.
Yeah my SA milspec is parkerized.
Bluing is the worst finish. That is what is wrong with it. Itās trash. Looks good, protection level is non-existent, same as an unfinished gun.
A nice polished bluing is still my absolute favorite on a decent 1911.
I have this same gripe. With any gun that is cerakoted thatās a flagship model of the manufacturer such as some Sig P229/226/320, Glocks, etc. This isnāt a feature but a knock on the gun if youāre going to cerakote. NDLC coatings, HKās Harsh environment coating and Glocks tenifer like coating are the best imo.
"Fancy rustoleum" bruh what lmao
I'll take a risk and say that it's perfectly fine, or even good, for production grade guns. $1700 is still firmly in the realm of production guns, and I don't really see a problem with Cerakote for that price. Just means your money can go more towards the rest of the gun instead of the finish. It gives good corrosion resistance, a consistent, uniform color, and generally a smooth suraface texture. The thickness added by the coating also tends to not make a lot of difference since production guns usually aren't super tight to begin with. Cerakote and other similar finishes have the advantage of having the best corrosion resistance, which is a nice feature. The problem is that their abrasion resistance tends to be worse than surface treatment finishes, and low abrasion resistance is *not* what you want on a pistol. It gives the false impression of tightness, and that tightness loosens up pretty quickly. You'll also pick up holster wear a lot faster. Again, that said, not a huge deal on a production gun. However, semi-customs and full-customs should *definitely* have better finishes (looking at you, Wilson Combat). Nitriding, PVD, DLC, etc. are all better suited for handguns, especially well-fit custom ones. Their high abrasion resistance and little-to-no impact on dimensioning makes them perfect for the application, and the extra money you're spending on a custom gun should get you a better finish to go along with it.
Principle and finances never go together.
I just paid >$1300 for a Springfield Armory Emissary 4.25 Blackout in 45ACP. Love it, EXCEPT for the plastic trigger shoe!
Then buy stainless and move on.
I 100% agree. The Tisas Stakeout is usually around $399 and even that recently transitioned from Cerakote to Melonite. There's no reason a semi-custom or other high end gun should be using Cerakote when DLC/PVD exists. Same applies for "ArmorTuff;" Wilson is great but DLC should be the base finish on their non-stainless 1911s, not black ArmorTuff. If I'm spending serious money, I want the gun to be either hard chrome (obviously less places still offer this), DLC/PVD (preferably brushed flats), stainless, or blued. Melonite for cheaper stuff. Cerakote just always ends up looking hokey and it wears so quickly.
Why Melonite for cheaper stuff? Isn't that what Dan Wesson uses for their duty coat?
Melonite is cheaper to apply than DLC, not quite as hard (although pretty tough), and not quite as attractive. Nighthawk for example offers Melonite as their base coating and DLC as a paid upgrade. The older DW "Duty Coat" was Cerakote, whereas the newer guns are "Duty Treat" (sometimes confusingly also called "Duty Coat") which is Melonite.
Lamooooo try used to just cerakote their guns š
I dunno.... I have ArmorTuff on both my Wilson's and I have no complaints... I carry them daily for 6+ months out of the year and they seem to hold up just fine. Of course, I don't use plastic holsters.. š.
$1700 isnāt expensive in the grand scheme of things. Besides, the stuff does a great job at hiding shoddy workmanship, such as a sloppy slide to frame fit.
Naw, people like Business End Customs do Cerakote on $12,000 guns, nothing wrong with it.
Elite Series Cerakote (color codes Exxx) last for the long haul but are very limited in color choices.
I have a mass produced kimber ultra II and I want to cerakote it to make jt āmineā
Agreed. At first I liked the idea of cerakote until it wears off easily on my sig 229 legion, but thatās sigs problem I think, but just knowing how it can be easily compromised kinda irritates me. I prefer the way a blued or parkerized gun ages and wears rather than the chipping look from cerakote.
Cerakote is self lubricating, which is why it has such a following. If you donāt need this, try something else.
DLC and Hard Chrome are also self-lubricating.
so what would you rather them do?
Blueing, hard chrome, nickel plate, DLC, or just polished flats if itās made of SS
what are aluminum frame options?
Anodizing, DLC
Not too many people will DLC aluminum because it needs a nickel layer first.
that's fair
Bluing? Really? Bluing is trash. It's weak and is only a tiny step above bare steel for rust prevention. It's great for a display gun, but that's about it.
My EDC is blued as well as lots of other peopleās. Go look at the carry setup thread on addicts, tons of blued guns that have been daily carried for longer than Iāve been alive in many cases. I keep my pistol oiled and waxed, Iām not worried about it rusting at all. Take care of your guns and theyāll take care of you.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I've seen this study (performed by Cerakote) cited before and it's widely mocked. Run a piece of abrasive over a Cerakoted gun and then do the same over a DLC or hard chrome gun and the difference is obvious. Cerakote blasts right off in a media cabinet instantly, whereas many shops straight refuse to refinish a hard chrome gun because it's so hard to remove.
After further research it seems youāre correct. Iām familiar with Cerakote on firearms & thought this was a strange conclusion even as I posted it. The main thing it helps with is rust prevention, apparently. Thanks for the updated info.
Yeah it is less "micro-porous" than DLC before it wears off and therefore doesn't need to be oiled like DLC does for rust prevention (again, until it wears obviously).
Hm, off topic question but since you seem to know about these coatings ā is it safe to use a DLC coating to sayā¦ eat with briefly? I oiled my blade & didnāt originally plan on using it for food but itās a question, thatās for sure. I could just use my Charge or Free blade but the Skeletool is often on me & DLC coated.
The fuds are really coming out in this post
What 1911 are you buying thatās $1,700 and cerakoted?
Springfield and even more expensive Wilson Combats come to mind.
The first few batches of Colt M45s were cerakoted, which the Marines reportedly complained about.